1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Prognosis. I'm Laura Carlson. It's day thirty three 2 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: since coronavirus was declared a global pandemic. Our main story today. Historically, 3 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is the 4 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: agency in charge of predicting and containing an outbreak, but 5 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: as COVID nineteen ravages the country, the agency has taken 6 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: a back seat to the White House. CDC director Robert 7 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: Redfield talked to Bloomberg about the agency's changing role and 8 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: its missteps early on in the crisis. But first, here's 9 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: what happened today. Talk is increasingly turning to how and 10 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: when the US can restart its economy and what a 11 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: rebooted economy would look like. Dr Anthony Faucci, the top 12 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,839 Speaker 1: infectious disease expert in the US, said Monday that parts 13 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: of the US could be ready to ease up on 14 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: coronavirus related restrictions in May, but Faucci and many others 15 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: say that would depend on widespread testing becoming available. Faucci 16 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: also said the US could see a second wave of 17 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: the virus in November. The likelihood that the outbreak will 18 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,919 Speaker 1: keep coming and going in cycles has Neil Cash Kari, 19 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: president of the Minneapolis Federal Reserve, predicting eighteen months of 20 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: rolling shutdowns. Cash Cary said on CBS's Face the Nation 21 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: that without a vaccine or therapy for COVID nineteen, we 22 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: will continue to have to reimpose and then ease social 23 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: distancing restrictions to keep the virus contained. About that vaccine, 24 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: the World Health Organization has said there are seventy coronavirus 25 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: vaccines in development around the world. Three of them are 26 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: already being tested in human trials. Hong Kong company Cancino 27 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: Biologics and Beijing's Institute of Biotechnology have the two drugs 28 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: that are farthest along in the pipeline. Scientists are working 29 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: at an unprecedented speed to get a vaccine to market 30 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: in the next year to eighteen months. It's a process 31 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: that usually takes ten or fifteen years, and the Centers 32 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: for Disease Controlled Director Robert Redfield said in recent interviews 33 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: that the coronavirus has stabilized across the US and he 34 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: thinks the country is close to a peak in cases, 35 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: but the US still leads the world in new cases, 36 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: and New York reported its death toll shot past ten 37 00:02:53,040 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: thousand over the Easter weekend. Now for our main story, 38 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: what happened at the CDC. We've traditionally thought of the 39 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: CDC as being the agency in charge of detecting and 40 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: tamping down outbreaks of disease. But when it comes to coronavirus, 41 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: they have been criticized for getting off to a late 42 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 1: inadequate start with testing, and the agency has not been 43 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: the public face of the disease response. They've largely taken 44 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: a back seat to the White House and its task force. 45 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: I recently had the chance to speak with Bloomberg reporters 46 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: Michelle fake Cortez and John Tozzi. They interviewed Robert Redfield 47 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: for over an hour about the CDC's response to the pandemic. 48 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: To start off, I asked Michelle to tell a bit 49 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: about the overall history and mission of the agency. The 50 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: CDC has been viewed as the gold standard worldwide when 51 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: it comes to controlling infectious disease. Is even in China. 52 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: Their agency there is known as the Chinese CDC, and 53 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: everybody has looked to the US to control these sorts 54 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: of outbreaks and to understand what's happening on the in 55 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: the world. The CDC researchers and staff members have actually 56 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: been the ones who have trained many of the people 57 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: worldwide who handle infectious disease outbreaks. So in the United States, 58 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: all of our politicians are leaders public health officials across 59 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: the entire country. Really thought that the CDC was the 60 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: premier institution that would be directing the entire way that 61 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: the government is going to respond. And the CDC director 62 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: is Robert Redfield. Tell me about it. Robert Redfield is 63 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: absolutely a renowned virologist in America. It's amazing because he 64 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: is probably one of the people who are most ideally 65 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: situated to be attacking this situation head on. He served 66 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: for twenty years and the U. S. Army Medical Corps. 67 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: He was a founding director of the Department of Retroviral Research, 68 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,679 Speaker 1: which was part of the military's HIV research program. After 69 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: he retired from that position, he founded the Institute of 70 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: Human Virology at the University of Maryland. He knows what 71 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: he's talking about when it comes to viruses in virology, 72 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: and he knows how to handle terrifying, unexpected new outbreaks 73 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: of disease. So the CDC is led by this renowned expert, 74 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: and the country was counting on them to manage the 75 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: coronavirus response, but there have been a lot of mistakes 76 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: made by the CDC, particularly around testing John what happened there. 77 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: I think from the kind of early weeks of the 78 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: outbreak in the United States, there was a sense that 79 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: we did not have enough tests or fast enough tests 80 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: to really detect the virus as it was, you know, 81 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: maybe spreading silently in some communities. The CDC developed the 82 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: first test in the United States, but when it sent 83 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: that test to state public health labs, it didn't work 84 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: and that set set the whole country back for a 85 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: couple of CREWFI weeks. YouTube interviewed Robert Redfield about all this. 86 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: What is his opinion of how the agency has performed, 87 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to coordinating public response to the outbreak. 88 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: Redfield defended how the CDC responded to the outbreak, and 89 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: he said that a lot of the kind of narratives 90 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: out there about the agency were incorrect. He said that 91 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: the CDC is still the premier public health agency in 92 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: the world, and he thought that the the agency would 93 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: actually come out of this with its with its reputation 94 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: and its capabilities enhanced um and specifically on the question 95 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: of testing. He said that the CDC did its job, 96 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: that it developed an initial test quick really once the 97 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: genetic sequence of the virus was available. They had a 98 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: test that worked at the CDC headquarters in a week 99 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: or just over a week, and that you know there 100 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,239 Speaker 1: was a failure when you know, there was a problem 101 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: when the that test was sent to state public health labs. 102 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: That took a couple of weeks to correct. UM. But 103 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: the question more of more broad testing capacity in hospitals, 104 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: in commercial labs. Um, you know, the ability of people 105 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: who think they are sick or think they might have 106 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: the virus to actually find out on a broad scale. 107 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: He essentially said that that's not the responsibility of the 108 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,119 Speaker 1: Centers for Disease Control, that that's the responsibility of uh, 109 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: you know, the healthcare industry and the clinical laboratories in 110 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: the United States. I think that that's exactly where the 111 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: rub is here. The thing is is that Americans expected 112 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: the CDC to be front and center. We expected them 113 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: to be the ones telling us what we should all 114 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: be doing. We do have doctors doing that. Dr Anthony Fauci, 115 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: Dr Deborah Bricks. They're both brilliant people who have a 116 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: lot of experience in this as well. But generally we 117 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: don't think of the State Department or the National Institute 118 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: for Allergies and Infectious Diseases as controlling outbreaks of disease. 119 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: That's what the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was 120 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: supposed to be. And I think that's where the disconnect is. 121 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: And perhaps this touches on a much more broad question 122 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: about when really the US government lost control of its 123 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: ability to contain the spread of the virus. We don't 124 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 1: fully know the answer to that, but I do think 125 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 1: there are a couple of important things to consider. First 126 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: of all, early on in January, the criteria for who 127 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: would actually be tested were fairly narrow. Um they were 128 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: looking at people who were potentially exposed through travel too 129 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: affected areas in China and who had symptoms. You know, 130 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: if there were travel related cases that didn't, you know, 131 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: fit those criteria, they might not have been tested. And 132 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: I think I think we still don't know the answer 133 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: to whether there were introductions in that period that we 134 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: you know, that we just weren't aware of because we 135 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: weren't looking for them. I think it's an illusion that 136 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: we ever had control over this virus. At all. I 137 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: don't think that we know definitively when it first arrived 138 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: in the US. I don't think that we know how 139 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: it has spread since it arrived. And it all comes 140 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: back down to not testing more broadly. You know, in 141 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: the in the early weeks, you know, when this was 142 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: primarily spreading overseas, most of the information in the United 143 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: States about the outbreak, I think was coming directly from 144 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: the Centers for Disease Control. They were doing regular media briefings, 145 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,599 Speaker 1: and as it escalated in the United States, those briefings 146 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: stopped and they were sort of replaced by these White 147 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: House news conferences led by the President every day. But 148 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: if you look at what the professionals of the CDC 149 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: were saying back in February, they were saying that the 150 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: United States needs to be prepared for a pandemic. They 151 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: were warning that, you know, schools might close, that daily 152 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: life might be seriously disrupted. Um and those warnings turned 153 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: out to be true. And they were saying these things, 154 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: you know, when the politicians, uh and the President often 155 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: weren't saying that publicly. And now you know, those voices 156 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: are not the ones we're hearing from anymore. And I think, 157 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: you know, for for a lot of people, that's that's concerning. 158 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: What is I think notable is that the agency that 159 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: houses the most expertise within the US government that was um, 160 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, correct in its UM cautions or warnings UH 161 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: weeks ago is is really not being hurt from in 162 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: significant meaningful ways UM. And that affects uh, you know, 163 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: everybody's ability to understand what's going on and make decisions 164 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: based on it. I do think that they are having 165 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: that kind of an effect behind the scenes. I do 166 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: think that they are sharing their expertise and giving advice 167 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 1: and guidance to state and public health laboratories, to state 168 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: and public health infection control workers. They're having phone calls 169 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: with individual groups. So I do think that they are 170 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: still having a major impact on how we're handling this virus. 171 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: I just don't think that the American people are seeing 172 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: it the way we expected it. Do you think that 173 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: this has permanently tarnished UM the CDC's reputation, both in 174 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: terms of a response to a pandemic, but just in 175 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: general is overall role in American health. I think that 176 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: we definitely are going to have a different view of 177 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: the CDC going forward, I'm not entirely sure if tarnished 178 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: is the right word. I think that the CDC themselves 179 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: are saying that they don't feel like in this outbreak, 180 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: where it is a national disaster across every level of 181 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: our country, that it should be the c d C 182 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: that is brought and center on that, and I do 183 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: think that a lot of people expected that to be 184 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 1: the case. So whether or not it's just a realignment 185 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: of what the CDC's role should actually be, or whether 186 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: it's it's just a diminishment of their role. Also, when 187 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: the next outbreak comes, certainly we hope that will be 188 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: a little bit more prepared for that one and maybe 189 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: it'll play out differently. That was Michelle Fake Cortes and 190 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: John Tozzi discussing their interview with the CDC director. And 191 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: that's it for the Prognosis Daily edition. For more on 192 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: the pandemic from our bureaus around the world, visit Bloomberg 193 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: dot com, slash Coronavirus and One Small Favor. If you 194 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: like what we're doing, please take a second to rate 195 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: the podcast and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts 196 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: or Spotify. It helps more listeners find our global reporting. 197 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: The Prognosis Daily Edition is hosted by Me Laura Carlson. 198 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: The show is produced by Me Tophor Foreheads Jordan Gaspore 199 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: and Magnus Hendrickson. Today's main story was reported by Michelle 200 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: fay Cortes and John Tozzi. Original music by Leo citran. 201 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: Our editors are Francesca Levi and Rick Shine. Francesco Leviy 202 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. Thanks for listening.