Speaker 1: Who's that man talking in my ear? He's rong Burndy.
Speaker 1: Good night everyone, This was Ron and another episode of
Speaker 1: the Run Run. What you're introducing the shell? Oh? Sorry? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Is it that you, Carolina? Yes, that's me. You're staring
Speaker 1: directly at me in the daylight at a rough night. Folks,
Speaker 1: if you're listening, if this microphone is even on, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give it to you straight. I am Unwell,
Speaker 1: if you've never gone through a breakup with a pop star,
Speaker 1: well it's like a normal breakup, except you can listen
Speaker 1: to them and google them and wear their wigs for hours,
Speaker 1: hours upon hours all night. Even listen, I know that
Speaker 1: last episode you and see it broke up on air,
Speaker 1: which was crazy, and it kills me. How heartbroken you've been.
Speaker 1: I don't know what you mean. I never said I
Speaker 1: was heartbroken. Save the drama for your improv class. Listen,
Speaker 1: you watched the whole series of Gilmore Girls in five days.
Speaker 1: That's eight seasons of a one hour show. That where
Speaker 1: you lead, I will follow? Okay, um, Well, today we
Speaker 1: have a famous psychotherapist, Esther Perel. She's amazing. I think
Speaker 1: it's perfect timing. Wait, we have a guest today. Wait,
Speaker 1: it's it's Esther Parrel. See you and I would listen
Speaker 1: to her podcast over coffee. Esther is here today? Is
Speaker 1: that what you're saying? Yes? Yes, should I shower? That depends?
Speaker 1: When's the last time you showered? I showered on Tuesday?
Speaker 1: So yesterday? Okay, yesterday was Sunday. So you showered about
Speaker 1: a week ago. Yeah, I think maybe that's what happened.
Speaker 1: Is it? It's over four years ago? This is so
Speaker 1: Laura li Gilmore of me and you're my little brainy
Speaker 1: act daughter. Rory, Rory, You're better go to Harvard. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna help you get up. Okay, a great timing.
Speaker 1: By the way, Carolina, you booked Esther Parrel after my
Speaker 1: long distance pop star girlfriend and I broke up. Wow,
Speaker 1: really cool. I'm single. Time for me to get into
Speaker 1: couples canceling. Let's just splash water on your face. And
Speaker 1: have you ever played the Gilmore Girls drinking game? It's
Speaker 1: where you watch Gilmore Girls and you drink every time.
Speaker 1: See it doesn't call you all right, We'll be back
Speaker 1: with Esther Parrell after this message. Oh oh, that's cool.
Speaker 1: You just threw a bucket of water. I'm sorry. It
Speaker 1: was the only thing we could do. You're falling apart. Gosh,
Speaker 1: does anyone to have a hair dryer? And we're back
Speaker 1: with the Ron Bergny Podcast. I just want to announce
Speaker 1: to our listeners that Ron has splash and water on
Speaker 1: his face. Yes, we combed his hair a fresh blazer.
Speaker 1: He's wearing a woman's medium blazer, so it's a little tight,
Speaker 1: but it looks good. It looks I don't mind the
Speaker 1: look at all. No, it looks great. And I look
Speaker 1: like Elizabeth Taylor a national velvet. That's a great example. Um,
Speaker 1: and yeah, we're ready to record. I think good. No,
Speaker 1: I feel fit as a fiddle, and I have to
Speaker 1: admit and I you know me, I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: admit this off. And I'm a little jealous of our
Speaker 1: guest today. Really wow, I do find that surprising. You're
Speaker 1: kind of in different fields. Well it comes down to
Speaker 1: this Carolina. You know those Ted talks, right, She's given
Speaker 1: like a billion of them and I haven't done one.
Speaker 1: That's true. And I've made it known to the people
Speaker 1: that at the TED conference, I'd be happy to come
Speaker 1: out and do a Ted talk anytime. And the response
Speaker 1: has been loud and clear, repeatedly no. Thanks. Well, they
Speaker 1: cover such different topics, So what would your TED talk
Speaker 1: even be about? Literally anything? I mean I told them
Speaker 1: they could. They could pick the subject and I just
Speaker 1: get up there and I'd wing it. There's literally thousands
Speaker 1: of TED talks I could give on many subjects. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm starting to see why maybe you're not getting the
Speaker 1: response you wanted. I mean, I think you need to
Speaker 1: pick a specific topic. Well, I can do that. I'll
Speaker 1: do that right off the top of my head right now. Okay, fine,
Speaker 1: I'm just spitballing here. Um, Barracudas. I know, I know
Speaker 1: a lot of cool stuff about Baracutas. Bam TED talk
Speaker 1: on Barracudas, the fish with sharp teeth. Now, just give
Speaker 1: me a headset, Mike and let me go off. I
Speaker 1: think that's exactly what they're hesitant to do. Really well,
Speaker 1: then it's it's their loss. I mean, think about it, Carolina,
Speaker 1: I would kill a TED talk, and you know it, right,
Speaker 1: whatever the subject is, how to fix your VCR, being
Speaker 1: a successful arsonist, whatever, it's just these Silicon Valet dweebs
Speaker 1: think they're better than me. I don't know if anyone
Speaker 1: needs a VCR right now? And wait, are you suggesting
Speaker 1: a Ted talk about being an arsonist ron? I don't
Speaker 1: think that's what they're looking for, and I don't think
Speaker 1: that you should talk about it. Oh well, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: Once again, you've completely derailed what was supposed to be
Speaker 1: my guest intro and you brought us completely off topic.
Speaker 1: May I introduce our guests today? Please? You brought up
Speaker 1: the whole Ted talk thing. I'm following you. Well, let's
Speaker 1: just drop it. And yes, I do know some things
Speaker 1: about arson, but that should be a whole different episode.
Speaker 1: I don't think we should do that. Our guest today
Speaker 1: is well renowned as an expert in her field, the
Speaker 1: study of relationships and sexuality. You don't have to say
Speaker 1: it like that. Well that's a clinical way. Um. We'll
Speaker 1: see what she said that's appropriate or not. Um. She
Speaker 1: is a psycho therapist, best selling author, podcast host. I
Speaker 1: know what that's like, right. And in sen she was
Speaker 1: named as one of a hundred Influential Leaders by Oprah
Speaker 1: Winfreyes Super Soul one hundred list. Again, I don't want
Speaker 1: to make this about me, but I'm I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: I almost made the Super Soul one d list. I
Speaker 1: was like, one oh one, Ron, you did not make
Speaker 1: any lists that Oprah made. Okay, Carolina, stop, I'm not
Speaker 1: implying our esteemed guest took my place on Oprah's Super
Speaker 1: Soul one hundred list by any means, no, no way
Speaker 1: she earned it. It's actually our honor to sit down
Speaker 1: with her today. You're absolutely right. I do think my
Speaker 1: spot on Oprah's Super Soul one hundred list was taken
Speaker 1: by the band Imagine Dragons. I think that's look it
Speaker 1: up there on the list. I understand it's heavy competition.
Speaker 1: There's some amazing people, but come on, you've got Ron
Speaker 1: Burgundy just sitting out there with his dick in the wind,
Speaker 1: and then you you pick Imagine Dragons. Call me petty
Speaker 1: if you want, But anyway, joining us now is an
Speaker 1: amazing person who I would like to quote because I
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of truth in her words. The
Speaker 1: quality of our relationships determines the quality of our lives.
Speaker 1: Those words ring true to me, and they're they're from
Speaker 1: our guests. So if you could just shut your apper, Carolina,
Speaker 1: and please welcome to the program, Dr Esther Perell. Dr Perell,
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us today. It's a pleasure to
Speaker 1: be here. But you need to take the word doctor
Speaker 1: out of it. Oh should we not? One? Okay, well,
Speaker 1: let's uh who put that in my script? It's okay,
Speaker 1: doesn't think anything away from me? Just as a nickname.
Speaker 1: Can I call you a doctor? Doc? Doc perel? It
Speaker 1: sounds like a Remember it is not real. It's not
Speaker 1: real because I cannot misrepresent my sin. Well, then let
Speaker 1: me just say Esther, I'm just I'm fascinated by your journey.
Speaker 1: You you grew up an antwer Belgium. Correct, You studied
Speaker 1: in Jerusalem, and then you came to the United States
Speaker 1: for graduate school, right, and I believe that's where you
Speaker 1: fell in love with New York City. And for our
Speaker 1: listeners who have never been to New York or or Carolina,
Speaker 1: who wouldn't last ten minutes in that town, what is
Speaker 1: it like to fall in love with New York City?
Speaker 1: And and what did New York mean to you at
Speaker 1: that time in your life? Okay, a little correction. I
Speaker 1: fell in love with a man with New York City.
Speaker 1: But together we came to New York City and the
Speaker 1: best way for me today. But he was not a
Speaker 1: New Yorker. No, not that a Southerner, um like as
Speaker 1: in the Southern United States, as in southern United And
Speaker 1: it was he from Alabama, Atlanta or Atlanta. So you
Speaker 1: fell in love with this gentleman. And New York for
Speaker 1: me was basically the one place I really wanted to
Speaker 1: live if I was to stay in the US, which
Speaker 1: I didn't know that I would stay. I came for
Speaker 1: one year. I just didn't use my return ticket, and
Speaker 1: the reason being that I think it's a city with
Speaker 1: a soul. I always though there are cities with character
Speaker 1: and cities with soul. Sorry that's my phone. And the
Speaker 1: ones with soul they basically reflect your inner state. But
Speaker 1: it's a dirty soul with gum stuck to the bartimes.
Speaker 1: And sometimes when you are ecstatic, it just makes you
Speaker 1: feel like you are on top of the world as well.
Speaker 1: It's both, and it reflects the darkest and the most
Speaker 1: luminous sides. But it is a romantic place. It's a
Speaker 1: great city to fall in love with, absolutely right. New
Speaker 1: York is. Also it's a it's a great city for heartbreak,
Speaker 1: wouldn't you say. And it's a perfect city to be
Speaker 1: a psychotherapist. Well, if you have a broken heart. In
Speaker 1: New York you can identify with every piece of paper
Speaker 1: on the street, and you just feel like you are
Speaker 1: dejected and rejected. And in terms of being a therapist,
Speaker 1: I would say that New York is a great place
Speaker 1: to come with a dream, with an ambition, with a
Speaker 1: desire to try out something, with a wish to reinvent yourself.
Speaker 1: It's filled with refugees of all sorts. Did you just
Speaker 1: clean up? I mean, and your practice just treating New
Speaker 1: Yorkers who are still in constant need of therapy. You
Speaker 1: make a lot of money, right with all the New Yorkers.
Speaker 1: I think you have a very misconception of psychotherapy. You
Speaker 1: see when I mean, I happen to work in private practice,
Speaker 1: but many of us do not. We work in hospitals,
Speaker 1: we work in clinics. We work with people who have
Speaker 1: very little run ye um. If you really want lucrative
Speaker 1: and if you want to make money, then doing psychotherapy
Speaker 1: is probably not the best way to do so. But
Speaker 1: if you want meaning inspiration as a profession with very
Speaker 1: little agism, actually, because you can practice until your brain
Speaker 1: stops functioning, then it is really, you know, dealing with
Speaker 1: the human life. Human psyche, the human suffering, the human spirit,
Speaker 1: the human resilience is probably be one of the most
Speaker 1: inspiring profession. It has to be rejuvenating in a way.
Speaker 1: Sometimes sometimes it's very lonely. Sometimes it's quite isolating. You
Speaker 1: sit alone with people and you absorb a lot, a
Speaker 1: lot of their life experiences, and so it's very important
Speaker 1: to be highly supported, highly rejuvenated by other things actually
Speaker 1: as well, not just because it's heavy to absorb the
Speaker 1: experience for other people. And yet there's always a Sabarros
Speaker 1: around the corner, and you can you can go and
Speaker 1: get get energy from from going to sabarrows or sitting
Speaker 1: on a park bench. But I like you like sabars. Okay,
Speaker 1: what what do you like the pizza with the spicy pepperoni? No,
Speaker 1: I like the flat diet coke flat. Yes, yes, that's
Speaker 1: what I like that They don't really you can't find
Speaker 1: it out here and where we're talking this place, Los Angeles. Yes,
Speaker 1: thank you, Carolina. Um are you at that stage of
Speaker 1: what of memory? Menopause? Oh? Men? Memory? No, I have
Speaker 1: a very sharp memory. You forgot your first name? I
Speaker 1: did at the beginning of this podcast. I did for
Speaker 1: just a second um, but that is also a sign
Speaker 1: of great intelligence I've read. So let me ask you this,
Speaker 1: what was it that sparked you to begin focusing on
Speaker 1: the world of relationships and sexuality. You don't have to
Speaker 1: say it like that. So I did relationships long before
Speaker 1: I touched sexuality. But I've thought that family systems. Families
Speaker 1: are probably the most complex relational system. Let me sorry,
Speaker 1: that's my phone. Don't you just turn it onto airpoint mode? Yeah,
Speaker 1: let me let me just do that? And it is riveting, unending.
Speaker 1: It's just never twice the same. And um, I got very,
Speaker 1: very interested. Instead of just focusing on working with indeed usuals,
Speaker 1: I've wanted to work with individuals in their relational systems.
Speaker 1: And first it was families, then it became couples, and
Speaker 1: I realized, I'm endlessly fascinating by working with couples because
Speaker 1: it's a it's a system that can be blissful or
Speaker 1: it can be hell. It's and everything in between. What
Speaker 1: two people can do to each other, it's just infinite.
Speaker 1: And then gradually I got interested in dealing with the
Speaker 1: subject of sexuality because, um well, I kind of was
Speaker 1: very intrigued with at the time the Clinton scandal and
Speaker 1: what it meant in terms of how this society in
Speaker 1: the United States addresses the subject of sexuality and how
Speaker 1: different it is from many other places. And but more importantly,
Speaker 1: I think that sexuality is probably in every society, the
Speaker 1: part where the most archaic, rooted and trenched traditional views
Speaker 1: and beliefs are lodged is around sexuality. And the place
Speaker 1: that where the most radical progressive change take place in
Speaker 1: a society or in a culture is also around sexuality.
Speaker 1: You wrote an article in search of erotic intelligence, and
Speaker 1: that was a bit of a career milestone for you. Correct.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about that? I was interested in America's
Speaker 1: attitude responses towards the subject of sexuality. But there is
Speaker 1: no public health policy for adolescent sexuality in the United States.
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, I thought it was on airplane mode it
Speaker 1: obviously we're in the middle of an energy I just
Speaker 1: want to be able to have a visual contact with it.
Speaker 1: Go ahead. Continue. In Europe, we think that sexuality is
Speaker 1: natural and being irresponsible is the problem, and that's what
Speaker 1: you need to educate for. In the United States, sex
Speaker 1: is seen as the risk factor in and of itself,
Speaker 1: and as a result, people are left often very ignorant
Speaker 1: and making an enormous amount of mistakes. I was interested
Speaker 1: in why it is that the posterrapy feel that I
Speaker 1: was part of spoke so little about sexuality when we
Speaker 1: know how central sexuality is to modern relationships and modern love.
Speaker 1: I was interested in the politics of sexuality. I was
Speaker 1: interested in the troubles that people have around it. And
Speaker 1: I just thought it is an absolutely unexplored terrain. The
Speaker 1: sexologists don't talk about relationships, and the relationship therapists talk
Speaker 1: very little about sexuality, and I wanted to create that bridge.
Speaker 1: You know, I am a firm believer in talking about sexuality.
Speaker 1: I mean, way back when I was I talked about
Speaker 1: sexuality constantly at nauseam. And why did you talk about Well,
Speaker 1: I just like, you know, I'd be at a cocktail party,
Speaker 1: like is everyone having enough sex? And I just wanted to,
Speaker 1: you know, address the elephant in the room. And did
Speaker 1: people gather around you or slowly walk to the bar? Exactly? No,
Speaker 1: I was shunned. But you both want to take away
Speaker 1: the shock value of it. Yes, I wanted to, you know,
Speaker 1: not make it such a big deal. But it is
Speaker 1: a deal. It is a big deal. It's just that
Speaker 1: you can have something that is beautiful and a big
Speaker 1: deal or something that is shameful, guilty inducing, filled with secrecy. Okay,
Speaker 1: I went to the other side. I'm just theorizing here.
Speaker 1: But let me ask you this. Do you believe there
Speaker 1: is erotic intelligence on other planets? I don't think there's
Speaker 1: any public scientific research to back it up. But I
Speaker 1: guess what I'm asking is, could there be sexy aliens
Speaker 1: out there? I have no idea, and ultimately I am
Speaker 1: not necessarily that interested about that. Yeah, I'm very interested
Speaker 1: in cultivating erotic intelligence here, but let's be very clear.
Speaker 1: When I talk about erotic intelligence, it's not about teaching
Speaker 1: people to have sex or better sex. People have done
Speaker 1: sex for centuries and sometimes felt nothing. Women all over
Speaker 1: the world know that. What I'm interested in is how
Speaker 1: do you help people experience a sense of aliveness centuries
Speaker 1: of sex? Yes, yes, yes, sis when it was a
Speaker 1: duty and an obligation, or when it is or when
Speaker 1: when people can naturally dispose of you. There is not
Speaker 1: much talk about pleasure, about excitement, about intimacy, about connection.
Speaker 1: Run are you on your phone? M h, no listening?
Speaker 1: So I'm not interested so much in sex. I'm interested
Speaker 1: in the poetics of sex, the meaning we give to it,
Speaker 1: what makes it totally human. Yes, but back to the aliens,
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe they're just way better. Maybe they're better
Speaker 1: at sex and love than us because they haven't advanced
Speaker 1: alien sex. So what, I can't do anything with it.
Speaker 1: I don't know where they are and they haven't come
Speaker 1: to teach me, so I can only rely or the
Speaker 1: government doesn't want us to know. Oh, you're in that one.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying you just provocative. I watched your Ted
Speaker 1: talk Rethinking infidelity, a talk for anyone who has ever loved,
Speaker 1: and I got a lot out of it. And call
Speaker 1: me old fashioned, but I believe infidelity is wrong. It's
Speaker 1: the ultimate betrayal. What what are your thoughts? Infidelity has
Speaker 1: existed since marriage was invented, and so to the taboo
Speaker 1: against it, it has been practiced in Tao, it's forbidden.
Speaker 1: I only know taboo of the men's colonne or is
Speaker 1: it a female colonne taboo? I think it's it's in
Speaker 1: a marvelous scent. It's like a dusky Motels. It is
Speaker 1: a dusky Motels. But it really takes me back. But
Speaker 1: what just to my childhood. Um, but having an affair,
Speaker 1: isn't it just it's fundamentally so here's the thing. Unless
Speaker 1: you're away on assignment right work in news, and it
Speaker 1: can be a real pressure cooker. But here here's how
Speaker 1: I will quickly answer you on this one. It has
Speaker 1: been there forever. It's often seen as black or white,
Speaker 1: good or bad, right or wrong, and it is a
Speaker 1: lot more complicated than that. It's beyond painful, it's beyond confusing.
Speaker 1: It throws entire relationships into disarray. And I thought that
Speaker 1: we need to find a way to address it with
Speaker 1: more nuance and more complexity than just straight flat out
Speaker 1: judgmental nous that just troys sometimes even very good relationships.
Speaker 1: And I wanted to think about the kids. I wanted
Speaker 1: to think about the entire social community that surrounds couples.
Speaker 1: And to just go into this it's wrong. It's the
Speaker 1: worst thing that some people can do. I wanted to
Speaker 1: also say that a lot of couples deal with varieties
Speaker 1: of relational betrayals made right classic example, that's not the
Speaker 1: one I'm talking about. I'm actually saying something different. I'm
Speaker 1: saying that there is lots of different ways people betray
Speaker 1: each other and that it's not just a perpetrator victim story. Wow,
Speaker 1: did you hear all of that in the Ted talk?
Speaker 1: That part I missed because you were in your childhood? Well, no,
Speaker 1: because I had to run to the bathroom. Yes, I
Speaker 1: made you do that to fulfill you know, I and
Speaker 1: I also had to fill up a big bowl of
Speaker 1: chips pringles. Look, can I get personal with you for
Speaker 1: a moment. That's what people do with I'm recently out
Speaker 1: of a relationship and it ended mutually on good terms.
Speaker 1: We are we're both were very mature about it. And
Speaker 1: here's a bit about us too successful driven And I
Speaker 1: don't know if this complicates it even more, but it's
Speaker 1: a fact. We're both of us are famous people. Fame
Speaker 1: was involved. I was, I was in a celebrity couple. Okay,
Speaker 1: you might want to ask this privately off the air. No, No,
Speaker 1: it's fine. Everyone knows that I was dating the international
Speaker 1: pop Starcia and I don't know what it was esther,
Speaker 1: But we really, we really connect. There was a balance
Speaker 1: we brought each other and the only problem was our schedules.
Speaker 1: Do do you have any advice for those who find
Speaker 1: themselves in a long distance relationship. If you're going to
Speaker 1: be in a long distance relationship, you want to mark
Speaker 1: time differently since you don't have the every day to
Speaker 1: come home later. They contact, they contact the regularity. So
Speaker 1: what so you you create a different architecture of time
Speaker 1: in the relationship where you meet. It's very intense during
Speaker 1: a few days, sometimes the week, the two and then
Speaker 1: you are a part. I think sometimes the most important
Speaker 1: thing is not to have the space in between, the
Speaker 1: dead space, but to find a way to make that
Speaker 1: remain vibrant in the relationship. And that means not that
Speaker 1: you have your cameras on where both people are in
Speaker 1: the kitchen talking about you know, so no no camera
Speaker 1: crews following you in your day to day if you
Speaker 1: can help it. No, it's I think actually letter writing
Speaker 1: is way more powerful. Letter writing the lost art of
Speaker 1: how people used to sit to take a letter, open
Speaker 1: it and immerse themselves in it and spend time with
Speaker 1: another person who's not there but were so immediate and
Speaker 1: palpable at the same time. But what if you don't
Speaker 1: know how to write in cursive my letter it's chicken
Speaker 1: scratch type type of way. Type of ways. So written
Speaker 1: is very powerful, but type of way to go and
Speaker 1: send an email, but it is there's something about writing
Speaker 1: and about sitting with someone's words that kind of enter
Speaker 1: you like that that is extremely powerful for long distance relationships.
Speaker 1: When when we finally got to see each other, it
Speaker 1: was so white hot the passion we missed each other, Yes,
Speaker 1: but you had to imagine so many things alone that
Speaker 1: when the other thing that when seeing each other did
Speaker 1: not manifest according to your dreams and expectations, then it
Speaker 1: became big disappointments. You nailed it, because everybody is alone,
Speaker 1: they're thinking, when I'll see you, this is what's going
Speaker 1: to happen. This is what's going to happen, and then
Speaker 1: they see the real person and if that doesn't happen,
Speaker 1: then they feel like there's such a gap between the
Speaker 1: She'd be like, why do you leave the toilet seat up?
Speaker 1: And I'm like what, because yeah, that was a common
Speaker 1: argument that there our fight. Isn't that a terribly boring thing?
Speaker 1: That this is what it comes down to, the toothpaste
Speaker 1: and toilet It's so banal. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: can judge it. It's just what we was our trigger,
Speaker 1: the toilet seat thing, failing in the ball is a
Speaker 1: terrible feeling. But you know, this is where I would
Speaker 1: say to you, one of the most important ways to
Speaker 1: diffuse absurd arguments is the humor, rather than taking the
Speaker 1: toilet seats so literal that this is a sign that
Speaker 1: you would fly into such a rage. I take a
Speaker 1: sledgehammer and destroy the toilet. It looks like you want
Speaker 1: your toilet seat down. Fine, then you'll have no toilet,
Speaker 1: and now you have no relationship. I'm toilet. I can't
Speaker 1: do better. You know, I'm not totally over it with Cia.
Speaker 1: I'll be honest, I'm a wreck. And I mean we
Speaker 1: we were intellectual equals. Say that. I still don't know
Speaker 1: how it was a thing that you were dating Cia.
Speaker 1: Oh come on, Carolina, grow up, um doc, I've got
Speaker 1: such a rigorous schedule recording this podcast, and and see
Speaker 1: it was also very busy with touring and shooting music
Speaker 1: videos and recording hit songs and remixes, not to mention
Speaker 1: the animal rights activism. But I'm here working night and
Speaker 1: day on this podcast. We record once a week for
Speaker 1: maybe an hour, and I just wish we could have
Speaker 1: been in each other's lives more. Um So, do you
Speaker 1: think there's a chance I could still patch things up
Speaker 1: with Cia. We had so much in common. If you
Speaker 1: were to patch things up with your girlfriends, Yes, it
Speaker 1: would require international recording Starcia. Yes, yes, ya, if you
Speaker 1: would be if you want, here's the first thing. Instead
Speaker 1: of going into all the grievances and all the things
Speaker 1: that she did that annoyed you, give chocolate no, No,
Speaker 1: start by doing basically an accountability of where you think
Speaker 1: you wish you had been better, where you think that
Speaker 1: you went wrong, where you hope that she remembers certain
Speaker 1: things that are also dear to you, and I think
Speaker 1: reconciliation if you're going in order to finally get her
Speaker 1: to agree and acknowledge to all the things that you
Speaker 1: have been complaining about all bad. So you have to
Speaker 1: ask yourself, do I want to reconnect or do I
Speaker 1: want to be right? Oh? I already know the answer. Okay,
Speaker 1: well then you know it's never difficult to be right,
Speaker 1: but you will be right and alone. If you want
Speaker 1: to be with her, you have got to be able
Speaker 1: to take responsibility for your part rather than just pointing
Speaker 1: finger at her. Yeah. That's the big issue in couples
Speaker 1: is that it's such an incredibly tempting blame system. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it really is a two way street until it is
Speaker 1: a one way street. Okay, let's just shift gears. Um. Now,
Speaker 1: Carolina is probably going to be mad at me for this,
Speaker 1: but cut it off. But I think it'd be a
Speaker 1: waste of her talent if I didn't ask you while
Speaker 1: while you were sitting with us, Esther, if I was.
Speaker 1: I was recently going through Carolina's purse because I thought
Speaker 1: she was stealing from Are you serious? Caroline? I was wrong.
Speaker 1: I was wrong. You hadn't stolen the five dollars. I
Speaker 1: found it in my blazer. Pardt Why would I steal
Speaker 1: five dollars? And I don't know, but I did read
Speaker 1: a bit of your diary. Okay, you have crossed a
Speaker 1: line here that I do not know you can walk
Speaker 1: back from. That's a total invasion of Let me finish,
Speaker 1: please let me. I'm about to compliment you now, Esther.
Speaker 1: Carolina has written what I think is some incredible erotic
Speaker 1: poetry that is for a writing class I am taking.
Speaker 1: And it's private, but it shouldn't be private. You've got
Speaker 1: serious talent. And I was going to ask Esther if
Speaker 1: she would take a look at it and pass it
Speaker 1: along to her publisher. How what I would like to
Speaker 1: take a look at what. I have a podcast as well.
Speaker 1: It's called Housework, Housework, Yes, And in that podcast, I
Speaker 1: would welcome to people like you, partners, colleagues, co founders,
Speaker 1: writers of erotic poetry. Sure, yes, indeed. And then I
Speaker 1: would look at the relationship between the two of you,
Speaker 1: and and I would also look at the relationship that
Speaker 1: exists inside each of you, the relationship history that makes
Speaker 1: you go and open her purse, that makes you go
Speaker 1: and look, I was wrong. That's not the point. The
Speaker 1: point is not just a way that you were right
Speaker 1: or wrong. The point is what drove you to not
Speaker 1: ask her first? You've worked with her for so long,
Speaker 1: and what made you think that you needed to take
Speaker 1: this up on your own rather than checking in with
Speaker 1: her first? Because she speaks around sometimes because you come
Speaker 1: with a and maybe you come with a predisposition towards suspicion,
Speaker 1: even when there is no reason to accept your own history,
Speaker 1: but not the current situation between you and her. If
Speaker 1: you're missing five dollars, let's put it back on you. Yes,
Speaker 1: aren't you going to probably know? The first thing I
Speaker 1: think of is what oh, I always lose things. I
Speaker 1: actually tend to reflect to refer it back to myself.
Speaker 1: And some of us are more inclined to put instantly
Speaker 1: put the flashlight on us, and some of us are
Speaker 1: more inclined to instantly look for where we can blame
Speaker 1: people on the outside est. I want you to be
Speaker 1: really honest with me. I just was. But yeah, I'm sorry, Yes,
Speaker 1: yes she was. Okay, yes, you're right. Tell me, Carolina
Speaker 1: Running and I have a professional relationship, at least as
Speaker 1: professionals he's capable of. Is this thank you? Is this
Speaker 1: podcast is functional and possibly detrimental to my mental health?
Speaker 1: Right for the jugular? Carolina, Okay, I'm sorry. Look, we
Speaker 1: clearly have some things we need to work on. But
Speaker 1: do you know how much I respect you. You went
Speaker 1: through my purse because you thought I stole five dollars,
Speaker 1: but you didn't. You didn't, that's the good news true.
Speaker 1: And you're also one of the best people I've ever
Speaker 1: shared a microphone with. That's nice. Do you know how
Speaker 1: long I've been doing this work, Carolina, did you ever
Speaker 1: ask yourself, not just if she did or if she
Speaker 1: didn't steal it, but on what basis you took it
Speaker 1: upon you to go into her stuff. And where that
Speaker 1: permission that you gave yourself came from? That you said,
Speaker 1: I can, I just, I'm allowed to? Well, I must,
Speaker 1: I just I kind of went blind in that moment.
Speaker 1: And what blinded you is the question? I ask you,
Speaker 1: what made you at that moment not think about your
Speaker 1: relationship with her, the collaboration that you've had, how much
Speaker 1: respect you have for her, All of that went out
Speaker 1: the window in the moment. It was quicker than a
Speaker 1: bus ride to Vegas. You know, I just just the
Speaker 1: just the pure anger that five dollars was missed, that
Speaker 1: someone had just swiped it from me. This ever happened
Speaker 1: to you before? By the way, he's gone, asked him,
Speaker 1: he's gone through other people's stuff. But the question is,
Speaker 1: have I gone through other people's stuff? No? Have you?
Speaker 1: Have you been robbed before in a way that made
Speaker 1: you feel Because I've been robbed in more than one way,
Speaker 1: maybe I therefore can just go. And I have thought
Speaker 1: I had been robbed countless times, and it turns out
Speaker 1: every time I was not robbed. Yeah, you've gone through
Speaker 1: a lot of coats and coat rooms at parties. Why
Speaker 1: don't you say, well, because I've I've misplaced like my
Speaker 1: keys and things like that, and I thought, oh, maybe
Speaker 1: when I met the person, I possibly put my keys
Speaker 1: there and wallets and stuff like that. I'm not a
Speaker 1: thief if we were. No, I don't think of you
Speaker 1: as a thief at all. I think of you actually
Speaker 1: more what happened to this guy or what happened to him?
Speaker 1: Oh yes, and what happened to you even maybe a
Speaker 1: long time ago. That just the sense that things will
Speaker 1: be taken away from you by the people that you
Speaker 1: trust and that you care about. The most dark parrel
Speaker 1: cut into the bone here. You know. I don't think
Speaker 1: of you as as evil or as it's just you're
Speaker 1: going in there with you know, just a sense of
Speaker 1: panic and a sense of excitement. Though that's thrilling to
Speaker 1: go through someone's belongings. I'm not gonna lie. There's a
Speaker 1: little it's erotic. It's erotic a little. Yes, um, interesting, Well, Jeff.
Speaker 1: Siblings Do I have siblings? I have a brother and
Speaker 1: a sister back in Iowa. Yes, yeah, I don't see
Speaker 1: them as much as yes, I would like. And you
Speaker 1: a number I am number one noh in birth yesh
Speaker 1: birth order I'm the youngest. Yeah, and they were much
Speaker 1: older than me and supposed to pick me up from school.
Speaker 1: A lot of times. I had a walk the three
Speaker 1: miles home, so they would forget a lot of times.
Speaker 1: But that's just that's just the way it was. You know,
Speaker 1: I didn't think twice about it. No, you didn't think
Speaker 1: twice about it. But you know, we have this amazing
Speaker 1: thing called explicit memory and implicit memory. The implicit memory
Speaker 1: is the way that your body remembers how you had
Speaker 1: to fight for everything and make sure that you don't
Speaker 1: get left out and you don't get forgotten, and nobody
Speaker 1: takes something that belongs to you. Well, shure, that's sometimes
Speaker 1: what happens. That's that's what bubbles, bubbles to the surface. Well,
Speaker 1: it bubbles in this kind of unconscious way, right, that's
Speaker 1: where you suddenly go into her stuff to check if
Speaker 1: she took the five dollars, didn't think. Thing is that
Speaker 1: we all have these invisible forces that shaped the way
Speaker 1: our relationships at work take place, the way we communicate,
Speaker 1: where we deal with conflict, you know, and this is
Speaker 1: one of those moments. How do we get rid of
Speaker 1: these invisible forces? The first thing is you get aware
Speaker 1: of them. You realize it because if you keep repeating
Speaker 1: she but you didn't take it, you didn't take it,
Speaker 1: you can see you are you know, then you don't
Speaker 1: spend your time thinking about what was this about me?
Speaker 1: I mean me and me and the coat tracks and
Speaker 1: the bucks of other people to the flame of conflict
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: love to joust, you know, you like the flame of conflict,
Speaker 1: or you like the relief that comes right after we
Speaker 1: were prepared to take that I can't resist. So this
Speaker 1: is what it's like. This is a this is a
Speaker 1: slice of life. This is sys you in my office,
Speaker 1: or you in how his work or you and where
Speaker 1: should we begin this where you are actually for a
Speaker 1: minute not going over to her, and you just say, okay,
Speaker 1: let me think about what was going before I rum
Speaker 1: to the purse. Take a beat. Maybe this isn't the
Speaker 1: best decision. Maybe check my coat pocket first, yes, or
Speaker 1: maybe ask oh, you work with so you know her,
Speaker 1: she's right there every day with you. Ask her? Why
Speaker 1: are you taking it all upon you? Can we do
Speaker 1: some role playing here? Okay, Carolina? Can I ask you
Speaker 1: a questions? I'm missing five dollars? Did you happen to
Speaker 1: take it from me? No, not a question. That's not
Speaker 1: a question. That's a statement with a question mark. That's
Speaker 1: an accusation that's implied. A question is a question, Carolina. Sure.
Speaker 1: A question means that you have to be able to
Speaker 1: tolerate the unknown in the moment, rather than trying to
Speaker 1: assure what you already. Have you seen five dollars lying
Speaker 1: around anywhere? Is that better? Much better? Okay? No, I
Speaker 1: haven't really, not anywhere, really, not anywhere, like, not in
Speaker 1: your purse. All right, you've lost it? Go back. I'm
Speaker 1: missing something. I'm worried. I'm scared. I need them. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure what I've done. Can you help me? Carolina? Um,
Speaker 1: I'm scared that I've lost five dollars? Can you help me?
Speaker 1: Will gladly help you look for it? Have you been?
Speaker 1: Shall we retrace your steps? Yeah, let's look. And I've
Speaker 1: made a list of five people that I think might
Speaker 1: have taken it, and you're near the top of the list.
Speaker 1: You can't resist, you know, I'm just being logical. No,
Speaker 1: you're not logical. When I look around the room, it's
Speaker 1: the logic of fear. It's the logic that can't tolerate
Speaker 1: thinking that you made a mistake, so you have to
Speaker 1: blame others. It's the logic of deflection. But it's not.
Speaker 1: But I don't make that many mistakes. That are you
Speaker 1: of all oh twenty local Emmy's later, he is, does
Speaker 1: that make sense? I would probably say to him something like,
Speaker 1: I know you hate to make mistakes. I know that
Speaker 1: when you lose something, it just totally throws you. And
Speaker 1: if you could find the culprit right away and just
Speaker 1: acknowledge with him and then let's retrace your step, it's
Speaker 1: a good way of anchoring someone and just say, you know,
Speaker 1: let's go think a moment with me before you just
Speaker 1: like through the arrow and just stop him and anchor him.
Speaker 1: I know you are usually upset when you're completely wrong.
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on with your brain. You're insane.
Speaker 1: You rule my life and you drive me crazy. This
Speaker 1: work atmosphere is suffocating. I feel like I'm underwater. How
Speaker 1: about this that was? Look? How about this Carolina? I
Speaker 1: seem to be missing five dollars. I don't know what
Speaker 1: happened to you. Can I borrow five dollars until I
Speaker 1: find the five dollars that I lost. I don't have
Speaker 1: five dollars to lend you a liar. I long are
Speaker 1: you two working together? That ain't gonna last about six years,
Speaker 1: but it's felt like a million yes, yes, yes, can't
Speaker 1: wit and can't without exactly Thank you, Thank you, Ebony
Speaker 1: and Ivory. No, too afraid and too immature to actually
Speaker 1: really grow up, and too afraid and too immature to
Speaker 1: leave and to be alone. Similar to a stable genius,
Speaker 1: very stable genius. You are that stable I am. I
Speaker 1: came up with that phrase with the emphasis on very um.
Speaker 1: I just wrote a very interesting blog about trust in
Speaker 1: the workplace that I think I would recommend to you,
Speaker 1: especially because of your inborn suspicion towards Caroline. Well, if
Speaker 1: we have time, maybe is that count on your website
Speaker 1: esra params separal dot com. It's the newsletter and the
Speaker 1: blog and I explore every time. Right after this conversation,
Speaker 1: that will have at least two stories. Not only is
Speaker 1: it on your your website, but you were also on
Speaker 1: Oprah's Super Soul one hundred list with imagined dragons. I
Speaker 1: don't know if they made it and not me, Ron Burgundy,
Speaker 1: not you, Ron Burgundy, he's a little upset. He feels
Speaker 1: like he was snubbed from Oprah's Super Soul on hundred list.
Speaker 1: But that's something else that you could explorence that feeling
Speaker 1: of loss, lost, feeling left out, undeserving, feeling jealous. Oh
Speaker 1: I don't I feel like I deserve um looks not
Speaker 1: only that you deserve, you actually feel entitled, entitlement. That's
Speaker 1: a big word that in the work like I have,
Speaker 1: you deserve nice things and recognition. You said that you
Speaker 1: didn't want to come in today like Oprah's Super Soul
Speaker 1: one hundred list. Would you like me to put you
Speaker 1: on my list? That does not exist yet? But if
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not a big deal, but yes, it'd
Speaker 1: be great. Thank you. You be on any list, any
Speaker 1: list works that you feel that your matter and you exist. Okay,
Speaker 1: Estra Parrel. Unfortunately we're out of time right now, and
Speaker 1: I want to thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Also, I think I'm going to
Speaker 1: call Sia to see if I can work things out.
Speaker 1: And if I get her voicemail, should I do the
Speaker 1: normal thing and just keep calling back again and again,
Speaker 1: leaving voicemails all night long. Sia. I've been thinking, and
Speaker 1: I think I would love for us to have a
Speaker 1: conversation or for me to have an opportunity to speak
Speaker 1: with you and her together, as I would like it
Speaker 1: very much if we could meet. If we don't, I
Speaker 1: would I would just like you to know that a
Speaker 1: letter will be coming. Okay, and I wish you all well.
Speaker 1: Sprel everyone, thank you, Thank you so much, my pleasure.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your wisdom and your insight. And it
Speaker 1: looks like Carolina and I have a lot of work
Speaker 1: to do. We gotta dig deeper. We gotta dig deeper.
Speaker 1: Um mostly on her side. It's the Ron Burgundy Podcast.
Speaker 1: Will be right back after this. Oh gosh, his phone
Speaker 1: and we're back with the Round Burgundy Podcast. Well, esther,
Speaker 1: Perel's a genius, but I'm still single. What did you
Speaker 1: think was going to happen in that session? Well, I
Speaker 1: was under the impression that she would give me a
Speaker 1: crystal or or say some spell. I don't know. But
Speaker 1: if you noticed, my eyes were on my phone the
Speaker 1: entire time and Sea did not text or call. That's true,
Speaker 1: you checked your phone at least ten times during the interview,
Speaker 1: but it was buzzing like crazy. It was kind of
Speaker 1: it was kind of rude. Actually, the worst is when
Speaker 1: you're waiting for sea to call, but it's just eight
Speaker 1: missed calls from your uncle with dementia. Yeah, I hear that.
Speaker 1: I have to move on. There just has to be
Speaker 1: more women in the world. There are more women in
Speaker 1: the world. There are billions, and I have to stop
Speaker 1: watching Gilmore Girls. I thought you finished all the seasons.
Speaker 1: I started watching them all over again. Yeah, so I've
Speaker 1: got to stop, that is what I mean. I've started
Speaker 1: going to gyms and paying them to change all the
Speaker 1: TVs to the Gilmore Girls just so I can watch
Speaker 1: Gilmore Girls on twenty TVs at once. What why? It's
Speaker 1: just comforting you're going through a pop star breakup. I
Speaker 1: don't know if it helps with everything, but if Cia
Speaker 1: or Adele breaks up with you, then Gilmore Girls is
Speaker 1: streaming on Netflix. I feel good withinding our episode with
Speaker 1: a plug for Gilmore Girls show that has been off
Speaker 1: the air for over a decade. Oh and if you
Speaker 1: can catch Rocketman just in time for Awards season. Who knows?
Speaker 1: Did I just sweep? This is Ron Burgundy on the
Speaker 1: Ron Burgundy Podcast. The Ron Burgundy Podcast is a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. I'm Ron Burgundy, the host, writer
Speaker 1: and executive producer. Carolina Barlow is my co host, writer
Speaker 1: and producer. Our producer is Nick Stump. Our talent coordinator
Speaker 1: is Anna Hostian writers are Andrew Steele and Jake vogel Nest.
Speaker 1: This episode was engineered, mixed, and edited by Nick Stunt.
Speaker 1: Until next time, this is Ron Burgundy