Speaker 1: That's my colleagues, We'll stop commenting on everything I get
Speaker 1: my assistants at people and meeting? Why does my coworker
Speaker 1: keep taking credit for all my idea? Have any wisdom
Speaker 1: for me? Hi, I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska
Speaker 1: Manager Podcast. Right answer questions from listeners about life at work,
Speaker 1: everything from what to say if you're allergic to your
Speaker 1: coworkers perfume to what to do if you drink too
Speaker 1: much at the company party. Let's get started. Managers can
Speaker 1: have a huge amount of influence over your day to
Speaker 1: day quality of life at work. A good boss can
Speaker 1: make even boring jobs pretty good, and a bad boss
Speaker 1: can take a great job and destroy it. Bad bosses
Speaker 1: come in a lot of different flavors, but one of
Speaker 1: the hardest to deal with is a boss who is
Speaker 1: just mean. Today's guest is worried that might be the
Speaker 1: boss she has ended up with at a new job. Hi,
Speaker 1: and welcome to the show. Hi, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for having me. I'm so glad to have you here.
Speaker 1: So you wrote to me and you said, basic, your
Speaker 1: boss is pretty awful to you. You've been there a
Speaker 1: few months and it feels like the way she treats
Speaker 1: you is abusive. When she gives you feedback in your work,
Speaker 1: she makes it personal, and it feels like she talks
Speaker 1: to you with real hostility when you've tried to defend yourself,
Speaker 1: like one time where she thought you had forgotten to
Speaker 1: include something in a draft and you pointed out that no,
Speaker 1: actually you had included it. She's told you to just
Speaker 1: stop being defensive. And then a complicating factor is that,
Speaker 1: well she's pretty mean to you, everyone else seems to
Speaker 1: like her, and it doesn't seem like she's treating other
Speaker 1: people this way. Am I getting that right? And is
Speaker 1: there anything you would want to add to that? Yes? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's spot on. Um, she's you know, she's
Speaker 1: been therefore, I think like probably two years now, and
Speaker 1: I've just joined recently, and I'm I'm one of two
Speaker 1: people that she manages, and she seems to be pretty
Speaker 1: close with the other person that she manages who's been
Speaker 1: there for a while, and she does kind of just
Speaker 1: like right from the get go, I've just really sensed
Speaker 1: this kind of like hostile vibe from her, and it
Speaker 1: just makes working with her really difficult, and especially when
Speaker 1: I'm like in a new job and I'm like trying
Speaker 1: to get trained and like up to speed on things,
Speaker 1: Like it almost feels like she doesn't want me to
Speaker 1: get better or that that I'm just kind of like
Speaker 1: her punching bag or something. And was it like that
Speaker 1: from day one? Um? Pretty soon? Maybe not the first week,
Speaker 1: but the first week was such a whirlwind. Um, I guess, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it was really pretty soon right away, Like
Speaker 1: she was just immediately like hypercritical of everything I did
Speaker 1: or said, will you tell me more about like specifically
Speaker 1: what sorts of things she says to you that feel abusive? Sure? So,
Speaker 1: as you said, I mean, recently, I made a draft
Speaker 1: for her and she asked for a specific finding to
Speaker 1: be included in, which I did, but she reviewed it
Speaker 1: like late at night and she missed, did I guess?
Speaker 1: And so she came in the next day and she asked,
Speaker 1: you know, hey, why or why why wasn't this in
Speaker 1: the draft? And I said, oh, actually it's right here,
Speaker 1: like there was a paragraph and I showed it to
Speaker 1: her on my computer and she looks at me and says,
Speaker 1: that wasn't there yesterday And I said, no, actually it was,
Speaker 1: and she said, all right, you should not be so defensive.
Speaker 1: It's not about you being right or me being wrong,
Speaker 1: which I was just really taken it back by because
Speaker 1: I just didn't know how to respond. Like I was
Speaker 1: just you know, kind of flagging that for her because
Speaker 1: since it wasn't the draft, she wasn't going to have
Speaker 1: to do it herself. The hostility right off the bat
Speaker 1: was just, you know, really just difficult to deal with.
Speaker 1: That's so bizarre because I'm trying to imagine how you
Speaker 1: could have responded to that in any other way. I mean,
Speaker 1: she was saying when there, you were pointing out that
Speaker 1: it was It's it's hard to picture what response she
Speaker 1: wanted from you. I don't know. She I felt like
Speaker 1: she she wanted it to not be there, and she
Speaker 1: wanted to break me for not being there, and I
Speaker 1: like I took that away from her or something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think I think you said to me in
Speaker 1: your original email that it feels like she tries to
Speaker 1: she's almost putting down your work. Yeah, she is. She
Speaker 1: she definitely does try to put down my work, like
Speaker 1: she she almost wants to make me feel like I'm dumb,
Speaker 1: or like she tries to explain to me what our
Speaker 1: line of work is all about. But I've done our
Speaker 1: line of work for four years and I've always like
Speaker 1: had good reviews and and my last company, you know,
Speaker 1: I really rose to the top of my team pretty quickly,
Speaker 1: and I was a go to person for questions. It
Speaker 1: does feel kind of condescending, like she's trying to put
Speaker 1: me down. Like she actually told me the other day that,
Speaker 1: in so many words, that I'm not curious enough for
Speaker 1: this line of work, and her exact words were, I
Speaker 1: just don't know how to teach curiosity. And I didn't
Speaker 1: know what to say to that, because I've done the
Speaker 1: work for four years and I always, you know, did
Speaker 1: a good job, and I kind of probably myself on
Speaker 1: going like the extra mile, and especially when I'm in
Speaker 1: a situation where someone doesn't think my work is good enough,
Speaker 1: that really kind of puts me into like turbo mode,
Speaker 1: and I really want to do a good job. But
Speaker 1: it just it just feels like even if I do
Speaker 1: go that extra mile, if I somehow squeak by, you know,
Speaker 1: she she says nothing, but if there's even a small mistake,
Speaker 1: she jumps on it and harps on it and explains
Speaker 1: it in a very patronizing, condescending way about how how
Speaker 1: I should have known better. But it's just feels like
Speaker 1: she doesn't want to help me. She just kind of
Speaker 1: wants to break me, you know. Yeah. And is the
Speaker 1: hostility that you're feeling from her, is that present in
Speaker 1: the majority of your interactions with her or is it
Speaker 1: more just occasional. I would say that it's present in
Speaker 1: most of our interactions. Like I've actually in the past
Speaker 1: two weeks, like center broke, since I wrote in, I've
Speaker 1: kind of tried to just distance myself from her a
Speaker 1: little bit because I figured that, you know, maybe that
Speaker 1: would be one way to kind of dial back on
Speaker 1: the abusive nature of the interactions. Like I just I
Speaker 1: don't ask questions to her anymore. I asked my coworker,
Speaker 1: who is a very sweet person, and I just I
Speaker 1: just really try to keep my distance because that just
Speaker 1: seems to be working out a little bit better for me. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so your coworker, so this is the one other
Speaker 1: person that your boss manages and they have a pretty
Speaker 1: good relationship. You don't see your boss treating your coworker
Speaker 1: that way. No, I don't. Um. She has been here
Speaker 1: for for probably like eight months or so. My coworker
Speaker 1: and so she's definitely been doing the work for longer. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, like, I mean, my coworker will go to
Speaker 1: my boss and will ask her questions, and my boss
Speaker 1: will be very like forthcoming in advice, and you know,
Speaker 1: we'll actually tell her what she wants or give her
Speaker 1: a plan rather than just kind of throwing her in
Speaker 1: the deep end almost and just expecting some kind of
Speaker 1: results that won't result in like rating. Yeah, I'm almost
Speaker 1: getting the sense that like she might just have an
Speaker 1: irrational dislike of you or something. Yeah, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: thinking that too, because we do have another like, like,
Speaker 1: we have a larger team of like six or seven
Speaker 1: people and the majority are women, and like, um, like
Speaker 1: everyone seems to get along really well, and everyone on
Speaker 1: the team and at the company overall it's like really
Speaker 1: friendly and nice and loves their job and it's great.
Speaker 1: But I think that my boss, like as you said,
Speaker 1: I think she just has some kind of dislike of me.
Speaker 1: And actually, um, I think this this will be um
Speaker 1: symbolized in my next incident where basically, like I this
Speaker 1: was another time earlier on where I basically asked her
Speaker 1: if if she would be able to help me find
Speaker 1: you know, a piece of of data to be able
Speaker 1: to disqualify a certain result that we found. And so
Speaker 1: I said, basically, you know, you know, I'm sorry, you
Speaker 1: have to go looking for it, like, you know, just
Speaker 1: just something like polite. I felt like, just something, you know,
Speaker 1: like I know she's busy and I just couldn't find it,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to see if she could help. But
Speaker 1: so after I said that, you know, I'm sorry, sorry,
Speaker 1: I have to go looking for it, she turned to
Speaker 1: me and said, Okay, stop apologizing. I obviously have to
Speaker 1: do this. How else do you think it's gonna get
Speaker 1: done if I don't do this, really I want to
Speaker 1: hear it, and she just and she she doesn't smile
Speaker 1: that much in general, like well, well she kind of
Speaker 1: does with other people, but never with me. But she
Speaker 1: just stares at me with this like terrifying face, like
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. Like I just kind
Speaker 1: of looked away and said, yeah, I'm sorry, you're right.
Speaker 1: I was like, what was I supposed to say? That
Speaker 1: sounds really awful? Is she? I'm just curious and I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I'll start giving you some advice and I'll stop with
Speaker 1: my questions after after it Um, is she a newer manager?
Speaker 1: Do you happen to know if she has a lot
Speaker 1: of management experience or if she's just getting her feet wet. Yes, So,
Speaker 1: so I actually think, um, that I think she is
Speaker 1: a new manager, and that's like I'm not sure, but
Speaker 1: I took a look at her LinkedIn and she has
Speaker 1: mostly like a lot of like contracting work and um,
Speaker 1: kind of like consultant type things before this job. And
Speaker 1: so I really get the sense that she has never
Speaker 1: managed before. Okay, let's pause here for a quick break.
Speaker 1: When we come back, I want to get into actually
Speaker 1: talking about what you might be able to do about this.
Speaker 1: So I have a theory. Well, I have two theories
Speaker 1: about your boss. I have absolutely nothing to back them up. There,
Speaker 1: just speculation. But my gut is saying she's a brand
Speaker 1: new manager, she really doesn't know how to manage, and
Speaker 1: she might be really stressed out. Um. I'm actually curious
Speaker 1: to know if, like what you've noticed about her stress level,
Speaker 1: because what you're describing sounds like someone who who is
Speaker 1: stressed out and does not know how to manage a
Speaker 1: actively and it is taking that stress out on you.
Speaker 1: But my second theory is that maybe she just has
Speaker 1: an irrational dislike of you, Like maybe she didn't want
Speaker 1: to hire you, she wanted to hire her friend, or
Speaker 1: maybe you look just like her cousin who she hates her.
Speaker 1: I mean, there might just be something of really irrational
Speaker 1: going on here that isn't about you at all. Well,
Speaker 1: I do think that she's probably pretty stressed. Um she
Speaker 1: does tend to email on the weekend and she'll like
Speaker 1: review my reports on the weekend, or um, she'll I
Speaker 1: don't know, she she stays up late to do things,
Speaker 1: and she just she she seems like maybe a higher
Speaker 1: stress individual. So that definitely I think could be contributing.
Speaker 1: It is said, maybe it's just easier to take it
Speaker 1: out on me because I'm new and like, I'm definitely
Speaker 1: still learning and I'm not it takes a while to
Speaker 1: get up to speed, especially on like a more like
Speaker 1: technical kind of thing that we do. But I just
Speaker 1: I don't see her treating the other like my peer
Speaker 1: like that, or any of like her peers or like
Speaker 1: my my grand boss. Yeah, well she definitely wouldn't do
Speaker 1: it above her because people who are abusive tent to
Speaker 1: at least know that they can't aim it upward. They
Speaker 1: can only get away with aiming it downward, which of
Speaker 1: course just makes it even crappier because it means it's
Speaker 1: actually within their control and they're picking and choosing. But
Speaker 1: I could definitely see it being that she is taking
Speaker 1: her stress out on you, and the reason she's taking
Speaker 1: it out on you and not in your coworker is
Speaker 1: because she was able to juggle things before you got there,
Speaker 1: and that you are adding having to train you and
Speaker 1: having to answer your questions and having to manage you
Speaker 1: is adding to her stress in a way that your
Speaker 1: longer term co worker isn't. None of this is justified,
Speaker 1: and of course all of this is speculation. I could
Speaker 1: be completely off base. Um, But if I'm right, none
Speaker 1: of it is is justified. Certainly it doesn't make it okay,
Speaker 1: but it might just be an interesting thing to have
Speaker 1: in the back of your head as you're watching the situation,
Speaker 1: to see if you see further signs that that fits. Um.
Speaker 1: That doesn't really steer you in in any particular direction
Speaker 1: of action, of course, So let's talk about what to do.
Speaker 1: So I think you have a few options here. The
Speaker 1: first one, which I don't like and I don't recommend,
Speaker 1: is that you could just give this some time and
Speaker 1: see if it gets better once you're both more used
Speaker 1: to working together. I don't like that approach because I
Speaker 1: think it sounds pretty bad and you're understandably pretty unhappy,
Speaker 1: and I don't know that it's likely to change if
Speaker 1: you just try to wait it out. And you know,
Speaker 1: if she were like this with everyone, that would be
Speaker 1: bad in a different way. But I mean, that's it's
Speaker 1: terrible to have a managery where that's just her style.
Speaker 1: But in that case, it would be possible that maybe
Speaker 1: you could end up finding ways to work reasonably happily
Speaker 1: with a manager who just has a crappy style. But
Speaker 1: the fact that she's just doing it to you says
Speaker 1: to me that there's something going on that's specific to
Speaker 1: the two of you, or that the way you're approaching
Speaker 1: the work is somehow out of ink with what she
Speaker 1: wants and she hasn't figured out how to articulate that,
Speaker 1: and that's not likely to go away if you just
Speaker 1: leave it alone. So I don't recommend just waiting and seeing.
Speaker 1: The option that I suspect will get better results but
Speaker 1: you might not want to do it, is that you
Speaker 1: can try talking to her about it head on. Um,
Speaker 1: something weird is going on, you know, since she's not
Speaker 1: doing this with other people, and it's probably in your
Speaker 1: best interests to address it and find out what it is. Um,
Speaker 1: it might be worth talking with her, you know, sitting
Speaker 1: down and asking to talk about how things are going overall.
Speaker 1: Your a few months into the job, so this is
Speaker 1: a logical time to do that anyway, And as part
Speaker 1: of that conversation you could say pretty straightforwardly that you're
Speaker 1: getting the sense that she might be unhappy with your
Speaker 1: work and even frustrated with you, and asked to talk
Speaker 1: about that. Now. Would you be comfortable doing that? Or
Speaker 1: maybe not comfortable because it sounds like this whole thing
Speaker 1: is pretty uncomfortable. But but can you imagine doing that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I might try to pick a day when she's not
Speaker 1: under all of stress, which I don't I don't really
Speaker 1: know how to like kind of read her yet, but definitely, UM,
Speaker 1: when she's less busy. I do want to definitely address it.
Speaker 1: I just feel like I'm worried that if I address
Speaker 1: it with her directly, she'll just say something like you
Speaker 1: need to get better, or your work is bad, or
Speaker 1: it's just it's just frustrating me because I really do
Speaker 1: try really hard, and I try to follow her exact
Speaker 1: protocols as much as possible. Like I'll copy, you know,
Speaker 1: something that she did at a previous incident and use
Speaker 1: it for a new one, the same type of incident,
Speaker 1: you know, tweak it for with the additional details, and
Speaker 1: suddenly it won't be good enough, and she'll add additional details,
Speaker 1: even when mine was more than sufficient and was good enough,
Speaker 1: you know, a week ago. And it's just it feels
Speaker 1: like she she kind of wants to like set me
Speaker 1: up up to to not be successful. But I mean,
Speaker 1: I would definitely like be interested in talking to her
Speaker 1: about it, and I think I would frame it like that,
Speaker 1: like I get the sense that you're unhappy with my
Speaker 1: work or maybe just with me in general, and I guess,
Speaker 1: how can we fix it? Yeah? And I think, I mean,
Speaker 1: you might be thinking, gosh, I'm just going to be
Speaker 1: inviting even more criticism from her, and you might, But
Speaker 1: the idea is, if she is thinking something about you,
Speaker 1: it's better for you to hear it. And what you
Speaker 1: want to really focus on here as much as you
Speaker 1: can is the big picture, like overall, how are things
Speaker 1: going and overall, what does she think you need to
Speaker 1: be doing differently or working on So it's not an
Speaker 1: invitation for her to like get into the nitty gritty
Speaker 1: complaints that she's had in the past. I mean, she
Speaker 1: might do that, and you can't stop her from doing that,
Speaker 1: But as much as you can, I think you want
Speaker 1: to frame it as you're getting the sense that overall
Speaker 1: you might not be approaching the job in the way
Speaker 1: that she wants and you really want to. You want
Speaker 1: to do a good job at work, You want her feedback,
Speaker 1: um and and you don't want to to have a
Speaker 1: situation where she's frustrated or unhappy with you. UM. I
Speaker 1: will say there is a risk to this option that
Speaker 1: you would have to be okay with going in because
Speaker 1: it is possible that if you sit down with her
Speaker 1: and you say that, she might move pretty quickly to yeah,
Speaker 1: things are not going well, and that could move you
Speaker 1: more quickly into a situation where potentially she's even talking
Speaker 1: about whether or not it's the right job for you,
Speaker 1: and it could take you down a path of even
Speaker 1: being pushed out of the job. UM. I have no
Speaker 1: idea whether or not that's likely to happen, but it
Speaker 1: is certainly the case that if you bring up the
Speaker 1: topic and you say, hey, let's step back and reflect
Speaker 1: on how things are going, that is a possible outcome.
Speaker 1: I'm going to argue that if that is the outcome,
Speaker 1: it's still better to know about it and to bring
Speaker 1: it to the surface so that you can figure out
Speaker 1: how to proceed, because if that's the case, it's going
Speaker 1: to happen at some point, and you might as well
Speaker 1: not be blindsided by it. But it is possible that
Speaker 1: initiating this conversation could make it happen soon. Does that
Speaker 1: make sense? It does make sense. It's it's kind of
Speaker 1: like one reason that I've been sort of like avoiding
Speaker 1: her a little bit, like except for like when when
Speaker 1: when I have a one on one with her or
Speaker 1: you know, another type of meeting, like I just I
Speaker 1: do try to kind of keep my distance because I
Speaker 1: figure if I can just like lay low like I've
Speaker 1: been trying to lay low approach. So yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess I guess there is a risk that it would
Speaker 1: it would bring it to the surface, but I do
Speaker 1: also really want to know about that and address it,
Speaker 1: and no, if it's like if it's not going to work, out.
Speaker 1: I would like to be somewhere where it will Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's exactly the right way to
Speaker 1: look at it, because it would suck if that's where
Speaker 1: that conversation went. But that conversation would not be the
Speaker 1: cause of it going there, you know, like, if if
Speaker 1: that is what happens, it wouldn't have only happened because
Speaker 1: he raised it. If that's going to come of it,
Speaker 1: that's going to come of it sooner or later anyway.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can only lay low for for so long. Um,
Speaker 1: if that is the direction that this is going in.
Speaker 1: At some point, it's going to happen anyway, And there's
Speaker 1: there's some advantage to taking some control of the situation
Speaker 1: and saying, hey, let's talk about what's going on so
Speaker 1: that we can both figure out how to move forward here.
Speaker 1: I just don't want you. I would never want to
Speaker 1: encourage you to go into this conversation without pointing out
Speaker 1: this potential risk, because I wouldn't want you to do
Speaker 1: it how that happen and then be blindsided by it.
Speaker 1: Yeah sure, sure, definitely, Um, Yeah, but I agree, I
Speaker 1: think it's better to kind of get it out in
Speaker 1: the open. If possible. Um, And I mean, who knows,
Speaker 1: there's lots of other things that you could hear. I
Speaker 1: mean you might hear, I don't know, you might hear that, Yes,
Speaker 1: she's been frustrated because she feels like you're not retaining
Speaker 1: information she's giving you. I mean, honestly, from what you've
Speaker 1: said it, it doesn't sound like that's the case. But
Speaker 1: who knows. Maybe there actually is something legitimate about her perspective,
Speaker 1: and she's handling it really badly and it's making her
Speaker 1: cranky with you in a way that's completely inappropriate. But
Speaker 1: maybe there is something there at the core that's causing
Speaker 1: it that actually would be helpful for you to hear.
Speaker 1: But even if nothing like that does come out of it,
Speaker 1: the fact that you're initiating this discussion hopefully will flag
Speaker 1: for her in a very appropriate and polite way that
Speaker 1: she's being kind of a jerk to you. You know.
Speaker 1: And and if if she's just a horrible person, maybe
Speaker 1: she doesn't care. But if she's not a horrible person,
Speaker 1: if she's just like a very bad, inexperienced manager who's
Speaker 1: under a lot of stress and she's handling this terribly,
Speaker 1: it might prod her into realizing that she needs to
Speaker 1: figure out how to change the way she's dealing with you.
Speaker 1: Who knows. Yeah, yeah, I would like that. I mean
Speaker 1: I've also considered that, you know, maybe like my work
Speaker 1: quality just isn't good. But I've never like, I try
Speaker 1: really hard, and I work really hard, and I usually
Speaker 1: like I'm successful. And I just think that addressing it
Speaker 1: with her head on would be good just to find out,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe to flag it with her maybe she
Speaker 1: doesn't realize she's doing it, or yeah, maybe she's just
Speaker 1: taking out her stress on me. Yeah, And I think
Speaker 1: no matter what comes out of that conversation, I think
Speaker 1: you're going to come away with much more information than
Speaker 1: you have right now. I mean, even if she's just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you need to do a better job and she doesn't
Speaker 1: give you anything beyond that, Now you know that you
Speaker 1: sat down and you tried to address it in a
Speaker 1: mature way and you couldn't get anywhere with her, and
Speaker 1: she didn't show any sign that she plans to change
Speaker 1: what she's doing. And so now you can decide, Okay,
Speaker 1: knowing that there's no sign that this is going to
Speaker 1: be different in the near future, what do you want
Speaker 1: to do do you want to stay and keep trying
Speaker 1: to work on it? Do you want to maybe start
Speaker 1: looking around? But you'll be better equipped, I think, to
Speaker 1: have a You'll have a better feel for that once
Speaker 1: you talk to her. Okay, yeah, yeah, okay, thanks? And yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I will talk to her about it and
Speaker 1: get her perspective. And do you feel like you have
Speaker 1: good language to use, like, do you have a good
Speaker 1: sense of how you would bring this up with her? Well,
Speaker 1: I guess I would just I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: I get the sense that maybe you're not super happy
Speaker 1: with my work, and I'm wondering if there's anything that like.
Speaker 1: I guess I would maybe ask if there were any
Speaker 1: like pointers she could give, or any like glaring issues
Speaker 1: that you know, she would like to see me address.
Speaker 1: Is that how you would do it? Yeah, well, so
Speaker 1: I'm going to tweak it a little bit. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that's a great start, but I think I
Speaker 1: would to bring it up initially. I would say something like, hey,
Speaker 1: now that I've been here a few months, could we
Speaker 1: schedule some time to sit down and talk about how
Speaker 1: things are going? Overall? So you're not like catching her
Speaker 1: off guard, you're actually scheduling time to do it, so
Speaker 1: hopefully she will prepare a little bit for it, um
Speaker 1: one hopes, And then when you actually do sit down,
Speaker 1: I would sort of repeat that, you know, I'm hoping
Speaker 1: to talk about how things are going overall and what
Speaker 1: you might like me to work on doing differently, and
Speaker 1: see what she says. But at some point in that conversation,
Speaker 1: I would say, can I be candid with you. I've
Speaker 1: gotten the impression at times that you've been pretty frustrated
Speaker 1: with me or with my work, and I really want
Speaker 1: feedback from you, and if there are things that you
Speaker 1: want me doing differently, I'm really open to hearing them
Speaker 1: and i want to work on them. But I'm getting
Speaker 1: the sense that you're pretty frustrated, and I'm wondering if
Speaker 1: I'm interpreting that correctly, so that you're really putting the
Speaker 1: focus on any decent manager, not that I'm categorizing her
Speaker 1: as a decent manager, because it really doesn't sound like
Speaker 1: she is. That any even halfway decent manager is if
Speaker 1: someone is going to hear someone saying to them, hey,
Speaker 1: I am feeling like you're frustrated, that that's a message.
Speaker 1: So that's a little bit more than are there pointers
Speaker 1: that you want to give me. You're you're you're sort
Speaker 1: of flagging that this is a problem, you know, and
Speaker 1: you're not you're not being aggressive about it. You're you're
Speaker 1: raising it in a very polite, appropriate way, but you
Speaker 1: are you're sharing with her that she's coming across is
Speaker 1: very frustrated with you, and you're concerned about that. Okay, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's I think that's sway better than mine. No, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's very similar and similar to yours. I just queaked
Speaker 1: it a little. Um. Okay, let's take a quick break
Speaker 1: here and we'll be right back. I also wanted to say,
Speaker 1: I know you had asked me when you first emailed
Speaker 1: me about whether this might be something to go to
Speaker 1: HR about or go over her head to her own boss,
Speaker 1: over your manager's head to her boss. It depends on
Speaker 1: what her boss is like. In general, I would say
Speaker 1: it might not have a real impact on what's going
Speaker 1: on based on what you've described, because it is probab
Speaker 1: well with HR at least, it is probably not at
Speaker 1: the bar where they would intervene. Her own manager might,
Speaker 1: but it's a risky thing to do because her own
Speaker 1: manager might turn right back around and just report that
Speaker 1: conversation to her, and it might make things worse. So
Speaker 1: the times when you can successfully go over your boss's
Speaker 1: head to their boss are the times that I would
Speaker 1: recommend doing it at least are when you have pretty
Speaker 1: good rapport with the boss's boss and you feel like
Speaker 1: you really know that you can trust them to handle
Speaker 1: it well and to not make the situation worse for you,
Speaker 1: and when you've seen that they have a track record
Speaker 1: of being willing to intervene with the managers under them.
Speaker 1: If you haven't seen that stuff, that doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: it's not true. It just makes it a riskier thing
Speaker 1: to try to do. Okay, And I don't really want
Speaker 1: to go to my boss's boss or HR just because,
Speaker 1: like as you said, like it's it's not like horribly egregious,
Speaker 1: but it's just it is making my working life just
Speaker 1: kind of miserable. But I do think that it would
Speaker 1: be better to probably just talk to her first. I
Speaker 1: think so, And I mean I do think it's pretty egregious.
Speaker 1: I definitely don't intend to minimize what's happening. I mean,
Speaker 1: what you're talking about sounds sounds pretty awful. I mean,
Speaker 1: the vibe that I'm getting from the examples that you've given,
Speaker 1: really are that she's sort of like getting some sort
Speaker 1: of satisfaction out of criticizing you, and that's really messed
Speaker 1: up and that's not good. Um. If I had a
Speaker 1: manager who was working for me and I heard that
Speaker 1: they were doing that to their staff members, I would
Speaker 1: absolutely intervene. But it's there are so many managers out
Speaker 1: there who are who are very hands off about the
Speaker 1: managers under them, which is why I think you've got
Speaker 1: to really know in a pretty solid way that her
Speaker 1: boss is someone to intervene with. HR. I think, um,
Speaker 1: HR is good at well, they should be good at
Speaker 1: intervening if it's something like harassment or discrimination or something
Speaker 1: that's pretty black and white, or if she were doing
Speaker 1: something like yelling um, But when it's a little bit
Speaker 1: more subtle, and frankly, this doesn't sound all that subtle,
Speaker 1: but when it's a little bit more subtle, they tend
Speaker 1: to be a little bit more hands off. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: there are some really good HR people out there who
Speaker 1: would handle this beautifully, but they tend to be the
Speaker 1: exception more than the rule. Unfortunately. Great, Okay, yeah, that
Speaker 1: makes sense for sure. I will I will try talking
Speaker 1: to her. I think, I think that's the right thing
Speaker 1: to do. And actually I have one other thought. Would
Speaker 1: you ever want to talk to your coworker about it,
Speaker 1: the other person who your boss manages and trying to
Speaker 1: get insight from her. Yeah, So I have debated about that.
Speaker 1: My my other coworker is like the nicest person, so
Speaker 1: Bubbly is so great and um like like so I
Speaker 1: actually go to her for questions said on my boss
Speaker 1: because like she's she's so nice and she's so helpful
Speaker 1: and so yeah, I have kind of thought about it,
Speaker 1: but I also worry that, like, you know, she's kind
Speaker 1: of friends with my boss. And I don't know if
Speaker 1: I mentioned this earlier when my boss just got promoted
Speaker 1: to manager when I got hired, So so basically my
Speaker 1: coworker became her direct report right when I got hired,
Speaker 1: so like they had kind of like a friendship before
Speaker 1: that for like six months when my coworker joined and
Speaker 1: my manager was already there. So I just, yeah, well
Speaker 1: that explain side. She's nice to her. Yeah, no, but
Speaker 1: that actually now I'm all the more convinced of my
Speaker 1: theory that she's like a bad, stressed out first time
Speaker 1: manager who doesn't really know how to manage and is
Speaker 1: taking her frustration out on you, and that puts it
Speaker 1: into context. It makes it make more sense why she's
Speaker 1: not doing it to your coworker. Okay, yeah, yeah, So
Speaker 1: so that's why I haven't reached out to my coworker yet,
Speaker 1: because I'm afraid my coworker like just hasn't had this
Speaker 1: experience at all, and so she'll just be like, well,
Speaker 1: that's strange, and like, I mean, my boss hasn't really
Speaker 1: done any of this, set idea of this to me
Speaker 1: in front of other people, like it's usually in like
Speaker 1: one on one meetings or something. Yeah, in that case,
Speaker 1: it might not be that fruitful to talk to your coworker.
Speaker 1: If if she had been managed by your boss longer,
Speaker 1: then potentially you could talk to her and you might
Speaker 1: hear something like, oh, she's like that with everyone in
Speaker 1: the beginning or you know, who knows. But it sounds
Speaker 1: like your situations have been different, the chronology has been
Speaker 1: different enough that it might not be that useful anyway. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So so that's why I've held off and I haven't
Speaker 1: been able to talk to like really anyone about it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So this it's been helpful to talk to you about it.
Speaker 1: And I also want to say, I mean, if you
Speaker 1: do talk to her and it doesn't get better, or
Speaker 1: if it even makes it worse, it won't you shouldn't
Speaker 1: see it as a referendum on you or on your work.
Speaker 1: I mean, what your manager is doing is objectively really
Speaker 1: terrible management, So it's not about you. So like if
Speaker 1: you are starting to second guess yourself and thinking like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe I'm not as good at my job as I
Speaker 1: thought that I was, or maybe I'm somehow causing this,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's the case, because even if you
Speaker 1: were really terrible at your work, your manager should not
Speaker 1: be handling it this way. And so the fact that
Speaker 1: she is says that this is very much about her.
Speaker 1: No matter what you might be contributing to the situation,
Speaker 1: we can very confidently know what she's doing is about
Speaker 1: her and not about you. So if it doesn't get better,
Speaker 1: I don't want you to feel like you have failed,
Speaker 1: or that this has revealed to you that you're worse
Speaker 1: worker than that you thought that you were, or anything
Speaker 1: like that. I think what it would reveal is that
Speaker 1: you just got stuck working for a crappy manager who's
Speaker 1: brand new to managing, doesn't know what she's doing, and
Speaker 1: it's it's really terrible timing that you got paired with
Speaker 1: her when you did. But if if you do end
Speaker 1: up concluding, Okay, this is not going to get any better,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to look around for something else, which
Speaker 1: I know you might not want to do because you're
Speaker 1: new and who wants to start a job search right
Speaker 1: away after they just settled in somewhere. But but there's
Speaker 1: no shame in doing that. If that's what you conclude
Speaker 1: makes sense, Okay, Yeah, yeah, I have considered it because
Speaker 1: I mean, it's, like you said, it is kind of
Speaker 1: taking a hit on my self esteem and like to
Speaker 1: have done this work for so many years, well not
Speaker 1: so many, but like you know, four years is a
Speaker 1: good chunk of time, and like I was good at
Speaker 1: it there and I'm just so apparently bad at it here,
Speaker 1: and I just don't understand, like, like I do think
Speaker 1: it's kind of bad for like my mental health a
Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah, absolutely, And don't shy away from recognizing
Speaker 1: that that could be happening, because bad bosses and especially
Speaker 1: mean bosses, which is what you have, really can mess
Speaker 1: with your head and if you stay there for a
Speaker 1: long time, it can really warp your thinking. And and
Speaker 1: if you're there long enough, sometimes when you finally do
Speaker 1: move on, you'll carry that messed up thinking with you
Speaker 1: did the next job, because they've messed with your head
Speaker 1: so much. So make sure that you're not letting her
Speaker 1: get in your head. This really, this is just the
Speaker 1: way she's behaving is so not okay that it can't
Speaker 1: be about you. Okay, okay, Yeah, that's that's a very
Speaker 1: good argument for moving on. I think if if it
Speaker 1: doesn't get better, I think so too, because I mean
Speaker 1: this sounds awful, and I mean it's there's like I said,
Speaker 1: it is yeah, And like I said at the beginning
Speaker 1: of the show, I mean, bad bosses come in all
Speaker 1: different flavors. You've got the incompetent ones. You've got the
Speaker 1: ones who won't give anyone any straightforward feedback or have
Speaker 1: a hard conversation. There's a zillion types. But the type
Speaker 1: that is outright mean to you and seems to take
Speaker 1: pleasure in criticizing you and seems to want you fail
Speaker 1: to fail, that's terrible. That's a terrible way to spend
Speaker 1: so many of your hours every day when you go
Speaker 1: to work, and there would be nothing wrong with moving
Speaker 1: on quickly if you decide that this isn't going to change. Yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I because yeah, like you said, I mean, ideally I
Speaker 1: don't want to leave a job after like three months.
Speaker 1: But I think if there's ever a good reason, it's
Speaker 1: because my boss is just mean. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, And
Speaker 1: I mean people always talk about being afraid of being
Speaker 1: seen as a job hopper or something. You are at
Speaker 1: your last job for four years, he said, You're having
Speaker 1: one short term stay is not going to be a problem.
Speaker 1: If you had a pattern of lots of three months days,
Speaker 1: that would be a problem. But you have. You've got
Speaker 1: a good, solid four years at your previous job, so
Speaker 1: I think you're fine. Definitely. Like, like, I'm pretty lucky
Speaker 1: because I'm in an area where my skills are like
Speaker 1: sort of more in demand. I think, like i've been,
Speaker 1: I've gotten like professed, like like LinkedIn like a lot
Speaker 1: of emails and things like that, which I didn't in
Speaker 1: my previous city, which was great. So that's good. And
Speaker 1: I do really like that. Um yeah, it's just I
Speaker 1: really I do really need it to get better. Yeah, yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And that is especially if you have options. I mean,
Speaker 1: even if you didn't have a lot of options and
Speaker 1: your skills weren't that in demand. I wouldn't want you
Speaker 1: to stay working with someone who's mean, but especially knowing
Speaker 1: that you do feel like you would be able to
Speaker 1: find something else. There's don't stay and suffer just because
Speaker 1: you feel like you have to do it for the
Speaker 1: sake of your resume. Okay, yeah, yeah, and do you
Speaker 1: know actually the irony, Like when I interviewed for this job,
Speaker 1: I forget how it came up, but at one point
Speaker 1: I remember I said to one of the people who
Speaker 1: I interviewed. I don't think it was with her, I
Speaker 1: think it was with another team member, but I said,
Speaker 1: I've never had a manager that I didn't like. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: now now you have the experience under your belts. So
Speaker 1: there's that. Well do you feel like you you have
Speaker 1: some good next steps here to take? Yes? Yes, really
Speaker 1: helpful you. I really like your language, Like, can I
Speaker 1: be candid with you? Like I feel like you hate me?
Speaker 1: I mean, of course I won't say it in that way. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for having me. It's been really helpful
Speaker 1: to get your perspective. Thanks for listening to the Ask
Speaker 1: a Manager Podcast. If you'd like to come on the
Speaker 1: show to talk through your own question, email it too
Speaker 1: podcast at Asking manager dot org, or you can leave
Speaker 1: a recording of your question by calling eight five five
Speaker 1: six work. That's eight five five f T six nine
Speaker 1: six seven five. You can get more ask a Manager
Speaker 1: at ask a Manager dot org or in my book
Speaker 1: Ask a Manager How to Navigate clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses,
Speaker 1: and the rest of your life at work. The Ask
Speaker 1: a Manager Show is a partnership with How Stuff Works
Speaker 1: and is produced by Paul Deckett. If you liked what
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Speaker 1: I'm Alison Green and I'll be back next week with
Speaker 1: another one of your questions.