1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 3 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb, and on today's episode, I'm going to 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 2: be talking with author Sam King, whose new book, Dinner 5 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 2: with King Tut How Rogue Archaeologists are recreating the site, sounds, 6 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: smells and Tastes of Lost Civilizations, is going to be 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 2: out July eighth. This is a terrific book, and I 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 2: really enjoyed chatting with Sam here about it. So let's 9 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 2: go ahead and jump right into the interview. Hi, Sam, 10 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me. 12 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 2: So the new book is Dinner with King tut How 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 2: rogue archaeologists are recreating the site, sounds, smells and Tastes 14 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: of Lost Civilizations. This deals with the topic that I've 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: found quite exciting for a while now, but I didn't 16 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: realize we had a specific name for it, experimental archaeology. 17 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about experimental archaeology, how and 18 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 2: to what extent it is different compared to traditional archaeology, 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 2: and how the two get along. 20 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 3: So I always had kind of a I guess a 21 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 3: gripe with regular archaeology in that on some level. It 22 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 3: was the most fascinating subject I could imagine, deals with 23 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 3: the deep history of humankind, where we came from, how 24 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 3: we spread across the globe, the rise of great civilizations, 25 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 3: all these big meaty questions about history. But whenever I 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 3: would go to an actual archaeological site, I always found 27 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 3: it extremely dull. It was just people sitting around in 28 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 3: the dirt brushing off pot shards or whatever with toothbrushes 29 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 3: dental picks. And it looked the same everywhere around the 30 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 3: world too, no matter what different cultures you were talking about. 31 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 3: So it was always a big disappointment to go to 32 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 3: these sites. And I contrast it in my mind with 33 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 3: experiment mental archaeology, which when I heard about it, I thought, ooh, 34 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 3: now this is the type of archaeology I like. Essentially, 35 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 3: experimental archaeologists make and do things so instead of just 36 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 3: digging something up and theorizing it, they actually try to 37 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 3: recreate the past in different ways, and that manifests itself 38 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 3: in all sorts of different ways. Sometimes they're creating ancient 39 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 3: foods and lost recipes. Sometimes they're making ancient tools or weapons, 40 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 3: or recreating medicines, things like that. At different points in 41 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 3: the book. I got to attend an authentic Roman banquet. 42 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 3: I got to spend a day out in Utah with 43 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 3: a guy who had built a giant medieval catapult, and 44 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 3: we spent an afternoon throwing these huge garden stones around. 45 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 3: I got to talk to people who made a human 46 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 3: mummy and Egyptian style mummy of a human in modern times. 47 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 3: They're just all of these different projects that people are doing. 48 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 3: And what really excites me about it is that it's 49 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 3: a very sensory rich version of archaeology in that you 50 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 3: can actually hear what it sounds like when a big 51 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: catapul ball slams home into a wall. You can taste 52 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 3: the food, the sour dough bread, or the beer that 53 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: King Tutt would have been. So it really brings the 54 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 3: past alive in a way that to me, traditional archaeology 55 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 3: just could not do. 56 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: It kind of gets this halfway, at least to Indiana 57 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: Jones territory, I guess. 58 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 3: Just halfway there. Yes, much more than sitting around in 59 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 3: the dirt, for sure. 60 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,679 Speaker 2: Now. I found it interesting you pointed out that some 61 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: traditional archaeologists have been opposed to this sort of thing, 62 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 2: and I guess I was a little surprised by this 63 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: as well, because I know that and we'll get to 64 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 2: some of these examples have encountered some of this work before, 65 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: and in some cases it's by very respected archaeologist of 66 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 2: you know, reconstructing tools from ancient times or you know, 67 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 2: creating you know, recreating Greek trirems, that sort of thing. 68 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: But yeah, you outline some of the pushback that experimental 69 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 2: archaeologists have encountered. 70 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, there is a bit of an inflict in the 71 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 3: field with sort of you know, traditional scholarly academic archaeologists 72 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 3: and the people trying to do this new method of archaeology, 73 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 3: experimental archaeology. Some of that I think is just sort 74 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 3: of traditional inertia where people are used to doing things 75 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 3: a certain way. Might be a bit of a generational 76 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 3: gap as well in there too, But some of it 77 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 3: I think is a little bit of resentment of Sometimes 78 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 3: the people I talked to do in the book weren't 79 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 3: traditional archaeologists. They were maybe a brewer or a chef, 80 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 3: or even a hairdresser in one case who had an 81 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 3: interest in history and came in and sort of proved 82 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 3: traditional archaeologists wrong. And I think there was a bit 83 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 3: of resentment about that. They didn't like being told they 84 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 3: were wrong by essentially what they considered an amateur. So 85 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 3: there is a little bit of tension within the field still, 86 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 3: and to be fair, there is there are examples out 87 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: there of bad experimental archaeology where people just didn't take 88 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 3: the time to do do it properly the first time. 89 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 3: One good example of that was the person I talked 90 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 3: to who recreated Egyptian bread. His name was Seamus Blackley. 91 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 3: He's best known. Actually he worked at Microsoft and he 92 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 3: created the Xbox. That's sort of his claim to fame. 93 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 3: But after that he went and founded his own company, 94 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 3: and as a hobby, he decided he wanted to make 95 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 3: heirloom bread. So he started with medieval bread and eventually 96 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 3: transitioned into making Egyptian style bread. And his first attempt, 97 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 3: you know, he just got some yeast, got some basic grain, 98 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 3: put something up there on Twitter, and a lot of 99 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 3: people wrote to him and said, you're full of crap. 100 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 3: This is a terrible, terrible job you did recreating this bread. 101 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 3: And he thought about it, probably got a little mad 102 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 3: at first, but he said, you know what, They're right, 103 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 3: I did a poor job of this. I am going 104 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 3: to now do a proper job of it. So he 105 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 3: flew over to Egypt with a microbiology kit. He started 106 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 3: swabbing the inside of pots to get the actual yeast 107 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 3: from the pots and the molds that they used to 108 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 3: make the bread. He sourced some heirloom grain, he sourced 109 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 3: the kind of wood that they would have used. He 110 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 3: had some one make him an authentic bread mold. He 111 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: built a fire pit in his backyard. He kind of 112 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 3: went all out on this, and he got let me 113 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 3: try some of the bread eventually after he had sort 114 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 3: of perfected it, and it was probably the best thing 115 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 3: I ate in the entire book, one of the best 116 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 3: loads of bread I've ever had in my life. So 117 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 3: you do have people kind of doing poor jobs of 118 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: this work at the beginning, but in some cases they 119 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 3: learned from that and did much better jobs by the end. 120 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 2: One quick question about the bread, what did you expect 121 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 2: it to taste like? Were you sort of expecting it 122 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 2: to taste like archaeology to some degree. 123 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 3: Or dusty, like really hard and great? Yeah? I didn't know. 124 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 3: I guess I expected it to be very bland and 125 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 3: very flat. Yeah. I pictured something just very flat, you know, 126 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: pretty bland, not much taste to it. I was surprised 127 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 3: first of all how big it was. It was about 128 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 3: a foot wide, maybe a little bigger even, and it 129 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 3: was conical shaped. It reminded me of if you've seen 130 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 3: those old pictures of the Mercury astronauts from NASA. They 131 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 3: would re enter the Earth in this sort of conical 132 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 3: shaped space capsule, and it looked a lot like that. 133 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 3: That was the shape. It had a nice springy crust 134 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 3: on it, and it had a really nice sour dough 135 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 3: taste to it. There were only a few ingredients in it. 136 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 3: Emer grain, coriander, salt, yeast, and water was basically it. 137 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 3: And the sour dough combined with sort of the whole 138 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 3: wheat from the emmer and the coriander coming in it 139 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: was delicious. It was far far better than I expected 140 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 3: it was going to be. 141 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: Now you mentioned bad experimental archaeology. I was wondering, this 142 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 2: isn't really something that is the focus of the book 143 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: or anything, But at least in your preliminary research, did 144 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: you find examples of experimental archaeology either veering into the 145 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: realm of or originating within the realms of alternative archaeology 146 00:07:58,560 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: or pseudo archaeology. 147 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 3: I definitely came across those kind of things, but most 148 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,679 Speaker 3: of that stuff sort of falls in the realm of 149 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 3: maybe not traditional archaeology, but at least sort of the 150 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: methods they used, where it's a little bit more armchair 151 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 3: and removed. You're looking at documents, artifacts, things like that. 152 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 3: So certainly not good archaeology and poorly reasoned in a 153 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 3: lot of cases, but it is a little bit more 154 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 3: on the I guess, traditional side, so to speak, as 155 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 3: opposed to the people who are actually making and doing 156 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 3: things that you can hear and taste and touch. 157 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 2: Now getting back into the positives here, something you write 158 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 2: about numerous examples of this in the book. How important 159 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: is experimental archaeology for the exploration and even revitalization of 160 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: traditions that have been lost or eroded via s a 161 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 2: Western colonialism. 162 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's actually a really important theme in the book 163 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 3: is that there are a lot of different people doing it. 164 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 3: Some are traditional scholarly archaeologists who just you know, wanted 165 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 3: to do something a little different. But the other thread 166 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 3: on the other groups of people doing this are you know, 167 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 3: indigenous people, people from native cultures who to them this 168 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 3: isn't archaeology as much as it's their ancestry, it's their history. 169 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 3: And in a lot of cases, they are either reviving 170 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 3: the traditions themselves, you know, going back to look at songs, poems, 171 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: traditions that they had and reviving them, or in some 172 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: cases they have actually kept their traditions alive despite the 173 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 3: struggles of you know, colonialism and things like that kind 174 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 3: of decimating their culture. So in a lot of cases 175 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 3: they are the ones going to the archaeologists teaching them, 176 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 3: correcting them, showing them how their ancestors lived. That's another 177 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 3: really important element of the book is talking to those 178 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 3: people about the wonderful job they've done preserving and reviving 179 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 3: their cultures. 180 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. One example of this, I was excited to read 181 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 2: about traditional Native American acorn processing practices in the book. 182 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: This is something I myself had just learned about fairly 183 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 2: recently on a trip to Yosemite National Park, where they 184 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: have you know, various places where you can learn about this. 185 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about the labor 186 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 2: that went into cultivating and processing these nuts and what 187 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 2: the final culinary results tasted like. 188 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, So this was one of the cases in the book. 189 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 3: You know, kind of going through the different projects that 190 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 3: I did. In a lot of cases, I was essentially 191 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 3: just floundering around and that I was trying something out. 192 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 3: I was very poor at it, and it sort of 193 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 3: reinforced how difficult it was in some cases to do 194 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 3: something even basically get a meal for yourself. So essentially 195 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 3: what I did is I gathered a bunch of acorns 196 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 3: from different trees around my neighborhood, maybe a few hundred 197 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 3: of them, five hundred something like that. Then I had 198 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 3: to look around for a hammerstone and an anvil and 199 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 3: essentially just brought them home and started cracking them open, 200 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 3: digging the meat out, and processing them. I learned pretty 201 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 3: quickly that maybe a third or so of them were 202 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 3: rotten on the inside. Some actually had weavils inside them, 203 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 3: so I had bugs crawling around in my homes I'd 204 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 3: brought them in and the other and so I had 205 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 3: to discard a lot of them, and then I had 206 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 3: to just essentially grind them up into flour as finally 207 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 3: as I could. And that was a step especially that 208 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: got discouraging because I had, you know, a big bucket 209 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 3: full of acorns, and that eventually ground down to much 210 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 3: less than a cup of accnable flour, and it was very, 211 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 3: very frustrating thinking about all the work I had done 212 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: to gather them, to grind them up, oh, and actually 213 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 3: skip a step because I had to leach them then 214 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 3: to try to get the tannins the bitter flavor out 215 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 3: of them. And I ended up with basically just a 216 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 3: cup of flour and could make a few muffins out 217 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 3: of them. And then apparently I did a bad job 218 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 3: with the leeching as well, because they tasted like the 219 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 3: most bitter thing I've ever eaten my life. It was 220 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 3: like a colaxon of bitterness raging inside my mouth. They 221 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 3: were not very good the way I made them, But 222 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 3: I later actually got to travel to a school that 223 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 3: does some experimental archaeology work in Maine. They do teach 224 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 3: survivalist skills things like that, and they showed me a 225 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 3: little bit more about how to process them, and they 226 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 3: ended up being absolutely delicious. We made acorn pancakes fresh 227 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 3: on a hot stone griddle. We had a little bit 228 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 3: of butter on them. They were absolutely scrumgious, wonderful stuff. 229 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 3: So it was a good learning experience and humbling in 230 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 3: sort of a nice way to Yeah, to just show 231 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 3: how difficult it was to do something basic like get 232 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 3: a meal. 233 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 2: Now, you chat with a number of researchers in this 234 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 2: book whose work I was familiar with to some degree 235 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 2: or another, like they'd come up on previous episodes of 236 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: this show. One in particular is Lynn Wadley on the 237 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: topic of ancient bedding. I was familiar with her work, 238 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: but not the hurdles she faced over her own use 239 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: of experimental archaeology. Tell us a little bit about this. 240 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, So she's an archaeologist in South Africa and she 241 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 3: does a lot of traditional archaeology sort of you know, 242 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 3: digging things out of the dirt, stuff like that. But 243 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 3: she had an idea she wanted to try and experiment 244 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 3: with the bedding that she found in one cave. There 245 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 3: she found what we think is probably the oldest bed 246 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 3: on Earth, from about seventy five thousand or so years ago, 247 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 3: and essentially it's a two part bed that's pretty ingenious 248 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 3: in a way. There's a layer of ash on the ground, 249 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,599 Speaker 3: so you just burn a bunch of debris, get a 250 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 3: nice layer of ash there, and then you put what 251 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 3: she called a top sheet on there of aromatic leaves 252 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 3: that you can pick from trees around the cave. And 253 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 3: basically what that does is it provides a nice soft 254 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 3: place to lie down, which is kind of the main 255 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 3: function of a bed. But in combination, the ash and 256 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 3: the leaves keep insects away, They keep mosquitoes away, the 257 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 3: aromatic leaves keep the mistque away, and the ash is 258 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 3: important for keeping ticks away. And she showed this by 259 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 3: gathering a bunch of ticks on the farm that she 260 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 3: lives in in South Africa, and she essentially put them 261 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 3: down on I think they were in a bucket, and 262 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 3: she put a ring of ash around these ticks that 263 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 3: she had gathered, and she just saw what would happen. 264 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 3: She let them try to escape, so they had to 265 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 3: burrow through this ring of ash to try to get 266 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 3: out of there. And she found that most of the 267 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 3: ticks did not even make it through the ring of ash. 268 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 3: They died halfway through. The ones that did make it out, 269 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 3: their mouth parts were so gummed up with ash that 270 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 3: they couldn't effectively bite anyone. So this ash layer provided 271 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 3: a really nice barrier against ticks biting you, spreading diseases, 272 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 3: things like that. So I thought it was a really 273 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 3: ingenious experiment. And then she actually had some people spend 274 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 3: a night on one of the on a recreation of 275 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 3: one of these beds in the cave, which I thought 276 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 3: would have been really cool. I wish I'd gotten a 277 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 3: chance to do that. They said it was a little 278 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 3: nerve wracking, you know, they were kind of out there. 279 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 3: They had no animals prowling around or whatever, but apparently 280 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 3: the beds themselves were fairly comfortable. So she was telling 281 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 3: me about all this. I thought it was a really 282 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 3: cool little experiment, and I was surprised to hear that 283 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 3: she had a lot of trouble publishing anything about it, 284 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 3: And in fact, the editor of the paper said, you know, 285 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 3: I love all the traditional archaeology, I am not mentioning 286 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 3: this little informal experiment you did, either with the ticks 287 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 3: or having people spend a night on them. And the 288 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 3: editor would not budge on this and cut that section 289 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 3: from the paper. And it kind of highlights the tensions 290 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 3: that you see between traditional archaeology and even someone running 291 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 3: sort of an informal experiment. And I told her, and 292 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 3: I'd write about this in the book, that it's even 293 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 3: more disappointing because I was thinking about Charles Darwin especially, 294 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 3: he ran tons of informal experiments like this, and they 295 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 3: helped him generate new ideas to test. They helped inform 296 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 3: the biology of the time. So she was really working 297 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: in the spirit of Charles Darman. It was just disappointing 298 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 3: to see an editor just put his foot down like that. 299 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then that's the kind of stuff too, that 300 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 2: helps make it real for people like most of most 301 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 2: of the listeners here, certainly like myself outside of the 302 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: academic world. Do you hear about these informal experiments and yeah, 303 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: it fleshes it out. 304 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, and captures your imagination. You can imagine yourself lying 305 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 3: on this bed, what it would feel like. It's much 306 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 3: more close to your heart. Then you're just reading about 307 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 3: digging something up out of the dirt. 308 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: Now, speaking of digging things out of the dirt, can 309 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 2: you tell us a little bit about your experiences eating 310 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: toxic potatoes in Peru. 311 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was another case where I was a bit 312 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 3: surprised at the outcomes of what happened. So potatoes are 313 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 3: native to the Andean Highlands in Peru, and I didn't 314 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,359 Speaker 3: realize when I started doing this project. The sheer variety 315 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 3: you see of potatoes up there, just the colors, the shapes. 316 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 3: They're really really beautiful, all the different tubers you get 317 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 3: in the Andean Highlands where they're native to. One thing 318 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,959 Speaker 3: I didn't realize also though, was that they're toxic. So 319 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 3: native potatoes you who cannot eat because they have certain 320 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 3: chemicals in them that will poison you. So you have 321 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 3: to process them in different ways. You can make a 322 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 3: couple of different dishes out of them depending on how 323 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 3: you process them. One way is essentially that you freeze 324 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 3: dry them, so you leave them out overnight soaking in water, 325 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 3: and the chemical reactions take place, and it essentially disables 326 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 3: breaks down these chemicals and they leech out and then 327 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 3: they're safe to eat after that. And another way is 328 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 3: you can process them a little bit but also mix 329 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 3: in a clay sauce. So you take dirt clay from riverbank, 330 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 3: mix it up with water, and you eat the potatoes 331 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 3: with that sauce, and the clay actually binds to the 332 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 3: poison chemicals and it goes through your digestive system so 333 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 3: it doesn't end up poisoning you. And when I got 334 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 3: started with this, the first dish, the freeze dried one 335 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 3: was the one I was excited about, so I thought 336 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 3: it was like sort of a you know, an ancient 337 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 3: astronaut food almost. I was like, this is so cool, 338 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 3: you know, the freeze drying his food in this way. 339 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 3: And I tried it and it just didn't taste good 340 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 3: to me. And I recognize I didn't grow up eating it, 341 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 3: so people there probably have a different opinion, but it 342 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 3: just tasted sort of like the desiccated husk of a potato. 343 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 3: There's a bit of flavor there, not much. It was 344 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 3: very mealy and dry and just did not really impressed me. 345 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 3: I just didn't enjoy the taste. So then I moved 346 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 3: on to the other one, which I was not excited about, 347 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 3: which was the one you mixed with clay, and to 348 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 3: my delight, that actually tasted really good. It had a 349 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 3: very nice, earthy flavor to it. The sauce was sort 350 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 3: of brown. It had kind of a nice almost a 351 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 3: texture like like a ti peanut sauce to it, So 352 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 3: a nice earthy flavor, a good texture, and I really 353 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 3: really enjoyed that dish. So it surprised me a bit that, 354 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 3: you know, eating clay essentially would really improve this dish 355 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 3: and make it good. 356 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: Oh wow, Yeah, I think that runs counter to what 357 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: I think my expectations would have been as well. I mean, 358 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: I guess we have a predisposition to judge the use 359 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 2: of clay and other related substances in our food. But 360 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 2: that's fascinating. 361 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's normally something we would brush off the food. 362 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 3: I think, like this is integral to be able to 363 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 3: eat the food. But it wasn't this case. 364 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: Now another I have to ask you about another topic 365 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 2: that had come up previously on Stuff to blow your mind. 366 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: You talk about the at lotto spear thrower. Tell us 367 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: what it was like getting to try out a reconstruction 368 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 2: of this weapon. 369 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. So the lattle is probably the most widespread hunting 370 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 3: tool in history. I was surprised at how widespread it is, 371 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 3: much more so than bows and arrows, much more or 372 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 3: so than spears. And if anyone has not heard of 373 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: an at laddle, it's essentially a long, flexible spear, but 374 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 3: instead of throwing it with your hand, you use a 375 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 3: throwing stick. So it's just a long straight stick with 376 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 3: a bit of a notch on the end, and you 377 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 3: put that in your hand, You hold that in your hand, 378 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 3: and you use that to throw the spear, and essentially 379 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 3: what it does is it extends the length of your arm, 380 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 3: gives you more leverage and power in throwing it. And 381 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 3: I spent a great afternoon at an experimental archaeology lab 382 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 3: at Kent State University. They have a wonderful little program there, 383 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 3: and the guy there and who was in charge of 384 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 3: this program, he had a bunch of at laddles and spears, 385 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 3: I mean, just so he spent an afternoon throwing them 386 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 3: at these little foam dummies that he had. They had 387 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 3: one that was sort of a beloved mascot that they 388 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 3: called Bambo. It was much loved, much abused. After years 389 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 3: of throwing at laddles at it, it actually didn't have 390 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 3: any legs anymore because I've been hit so many times. 391 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,239 Speaker 3: So they propped that up in the field. Then they 392 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 3: had another one that was like a third size replica 393 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 3: of a cariboo I think it was they got it 394 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 3: from target or whatever. So we set those up in 395 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 3: the field and we just spent an afternoon throwing these 396 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 3: at laddle darts at them. And I was surprised at 397 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 3: how easy it was to get distance with an at 398 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 3: laddle dart. I don't remember off the top of my head, 399 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 3: but the world record for throwing one is something like 400 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty yards, whereas the world record for 401 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 3: the throwing a javelin is much closer to one hundred yards, 402 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 3: maybe one hundred and ten something like that. So you 403 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 3: can really get a lot of distance on these things. 404 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 3: And even I, who had never picked one up before, 405 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 3: could throw it, you know, most of a football field 406 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 3: pretty easily. But accuracy was another matter. I tickled the 407 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 3: chin of that cariboo, I swear like four or five times. 408 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,959 Speaker 3: It just kept going just left, just right, just over it. 409 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 3: I just could not quite hit it. There was a 410 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 3: pretty common ex experience. The archaeologists I mentioned actually brought 411 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 3: his class in there. So there were maybe thirty of 412 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 3: US students and me of flinging these around and we 413 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 3: probably hit it, you know, maybe a dozen times over 414 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 3: the course of a couple of hours. And the students 415 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 3: were motivated. They got extra credit if they hit it, 416 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 3: so they were really motivated to try to hit this thing. 417 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 3: But it proved difficult to aim for us amateurs. But 418 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 3: it's a really fun way to spend an afternoon. 419 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 2: Now. I want to come back to the title of 420 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 2: the books. Of course, Dinner with King Tutt, we already 421 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 2: talked a little bit about Egyptian bread. But how about 422 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 2: Egyptian beer? Now, this is this is another one where 423 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 2: you attempted to brew this yourself right at home. 424 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 3: I did. Yeah, So I didn't go all out getting 425 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 3: the grain source from Egypt and you know, getting the 426 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 3: right type of e stuff like that. I just wanted 427 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 3: a basic flavor of what it might have tasted like. 428 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 3: So I got some Emmer grain, which is the grain 429 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 3: that they would have used, and barley, a mix of 430 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,959 Speaker 3: those two things, and I essentially just fermented them in 431 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 3: my home with a basic beer fermenting kit. So you 432 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 3: make the mash, you know, you heat it up, you 433 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 3: had the yeast, all those kind of things. Threw in 434 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 3: some different plausible ingredients that they might have used in beer, cinnamon, 435 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 3: things like that. And one important difference was that they 436 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 3: did not use hops in Egyptian beer. That's a later 437 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 3: invention from medieval times, and that really makes a big 438 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 3: difference with beer because hops is a fairly strong bitter flavor. 439 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 3: So the Egyptian beer did not have the bitter flavor 440 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 3: that were used to with modern beers, and that actually 441 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:40,479 Speaker 3: allowed other flavors to come forward, sour flavors especially, and 442 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 3: to my taste, it tasted less like a beer than 443 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 3: it did like a cambucha essentially. So it was a 444 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 3: nice sour flavor to it, and I could imagine it 445 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 3: being really delicious and thirst quenching after a long hot 446 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 3: day in the sun, you know, shoving pyramid blocks into 447 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 3: place or whatever. So that was one interesting thing, was 448 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 3: the taste was sour. And the other thing that I noticed, 449 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 3: and you know, you hear about this from archaeologists or 450 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 3: people have recreated the beer in other ways, is that 451 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 3: they didn't have filters back then modern filters to get 452 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 3: the chaff and the little bits of grain out of 453 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 3: the beer. They spent grain, so the beer was a 454 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 3: little maybe chunkier, you might say, and that there was 455 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 3: stuff floating on the top. And in some places, maybe 456 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 3: not Egypt necessarily as much, but in some places in 457 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 3: the Caucuses and other areas they were making this beer, 458 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,239 Speaker 3: they actually traditionally drank the beer with a straw in 459 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 3: order to get below the chaffline and just get at 460 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 3: the beer, as opposed to, you know, getting a big 461 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 3: mouthful of the stuff you don't. 462 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 2: Want Oh wow, So any of us that are inclined 463 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: to use a straw the next time we are having 464 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 2: a pint out side. 465 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, there were, actually it was This was in 466 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 3: a different area, not in Egypt, but there was one 467 00:24:54,920 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 3: case where archaeologists found a straw that they think it 468 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 3: was you know, maybe a king would have given it 469 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 3: as a gift to a visiting monarch or something like that. 470 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 3: But it was about two or three feet long, so 471 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 3: very big, and it was so ornately decorated that they 472 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 3: mistook it for a scepter at first. That's how elaborate 473 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 3: this straw was. But you know, these were valuable items 474 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 3: to people back then. 475 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 2: Wow, that's awesome. Now, on the subject of Egyptian bread 476 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 2: and beer, you also get into how these would not 477 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 2: just be valued for their role as sustenance and refreshment, 478 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 2: but these were also spiritually important. 479 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, beer and bread were. They basically permeated every aspect 480 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 3: of Egyptian life. The workers on the pyramids, for instance, 481 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 3: were paid wages in bread and beer, and then they 482 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 3: ate them with every meal, both of those things, with 483 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 3: every meal, and when they were preparing people for the 484 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 3: afterlife their tombs, they would always include bread, and beer 485 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 3: to get them to the afterlife and for sustenance in 486 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 3: the afterlife. It was ingrained in their culture. They could 487 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 3: not imagine life or the afterlife without these two things. 488 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 2: Now, this is obviously the point to ask to come 489 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 2: back to something you mentioned earlier, the Maryland Mummy, the 490 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 2: work of Bob Bryer and Ron Wade. Tell us a 491 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 2: little bit about this, how it went down, and how 492 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 2: has this project aged like. Tell us a little bit 493 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 2: about how it was received at the time, and have 494 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 2: archaeologists warmed up to it. 495 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 3: So this project I started in Baltimore, Maryland in the 496 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 3: mid nineties. There was an egyptologist and the head of 497 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 3: the State Anatomy Board. There an anatomist and the egyptologist 498 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 3: I think he was sort of the prime mover behind this. 499 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 3: He realized that, you know, we have a lot of 500 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 3: Egyptian mummies, but there's not a lot written down about 501 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 3: how they actually made the mummies. It's kind of a 502 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 3: mysterious process and we don't know if you know, the 503 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 3: information got lost. We don't know if they were keeping 504 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 3: it a secret, they just passed down to rissions orally 505 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 3: whatever the case was. But there's not a lot written 506 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 3: about how they actually made the mummies. So he decided 507 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 3: he wanted to recreate a human mummy. He approached this 508 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 3: anatomist who was head of the State Anatomy Board, and 509 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 3: he said, here's a proposal for a project. You know, 510 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 3: people donate their bodies to science. What do you think 511 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 3: The anatomist was gung how about it, and so they 512 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 3: decided they were going to mummify a human being. And 513 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 3: the egyptologist especially got pretty excited about this idea in 514 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 3: that he tried to be as authentic as possible, to 515 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 3: the point that he flew over to Egypt and he 516 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 3: actually dug out the mineral that they used to dehydrate 517 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 3: the body. It's a mineral called natron, and chemically it's 518 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 3: essentially a mix of baking soda and table salt, so 519 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 3: pretty simple chemically, but it forms naturally in dry gullies 520 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 3: and waddies over in Egypt. So he flew all the 521 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 3: way over there, got a shovel, dug out hundreds of 522 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 3: pounds of this stuff. And actually, he said one of 523 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 3: the more ticklish aspects of the project was smuggling it 524 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 3: back into the US, all this unidentified white powder that 525 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 3: he had in his luggage, but got it into the US, 526 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 3: got it down to Maryland, and they essentially just mummified 527 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 3: the body. They opened it up, got the organs out, 528 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 3: dried them out with the natron, you know, washed the 529 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 3: body out the way that they would have back then, 530 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 3: used oils on it, got the brain out of the 531 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 3: head in the way that they would have back then, 532 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 3: and then just piled it under hundreds of pounds of 533 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 3: this natron mineral to dry it out. And when word 534 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 3: got out there about this experiment, it proved pretty controversial 535 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 3: within the archaeological community and sort of the wider biology community. 536 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 3: There were some bioethicists who came out against it. Some 537 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 3: archaeologists also came out against it. They said it was 538 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 3: sort of tasteless, macabre. They didn't see much value in it. 539 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 3: And I do see their point that, you know, when 540 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 3: you're donating your body to science, you're probably assuming it's 541 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 3: going to go to a medical school or something like that. 542 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 3: Not in Thisss necessarily signing up to become a mummy. 543 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 3: But you know, legally they had backing for it. It said, 544 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 3: you know, you're going to end up in a medical school, 545 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 3: or we have other projects. Sometimes we use, and they 546 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 3: defended the project by saying that they actually learned a 547 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 3: lot about how we mummified the body. So they learned 548 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 3: how long it took roughly to mummify the body. They 549 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: learned how to get the organs out of the body, 550 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 3: which is something they did not know. One really cool 551 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 3: thing I think they learned is the Egyptologists had always 552 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 3: wanted to know. You know, you see a classic mummy. 553 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 3: Its skin is very dry, it's pulled back from the face, 554 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 3: the teeth are probably protruding. It sort of has a 555 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 3: classic mummy look to it. And he wanted to know 556 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 3: is that due to the mummification process or is that 557 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 3: because this body has been in a very dry environment 558 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 3: in Egypt for three or four thousand years? What causes 559 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 3: these changes to the body and about I think it 560 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 3: was like five weeks into the project they had to 561 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 3: change the mineral out and put fresh mineral on, but 562 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 3: they decided to take a peek at the body, and 563 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 3: even by that point five weeks in, the egyptologist was 564 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 3: sort of startled and he said, oh my god, this 565 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 3: looks exactly like Ramses the Great. It was incredible. So 566 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 3: it was the mummification process they learned that caused the 567 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 3: changes in sort of give mummies their iconic look. So 568 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 3: they defended it by saying, you know, they first of 569 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 3: all learned a lot about it, and second of all, 570 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 3: they said, they treated this body much better than most 571 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 3: bodies get treated. And the body is still around today. 572 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 3: It's in an office building in Maryland. It is perfectly 573 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 3: well preserved. It's probably going to look a lot better 574 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 3: than any of us will in one hundred years. So 575 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 3: he got treated, as they put it, sort of like 576 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 3: a king. 577 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 2: It's been many years since I read Mary Roach's book Stiff, 578 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,959 Speaker 2: but if memory serves, it's like the mummification process is 579 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 2: probably a step above some of the other legitimate uses 580 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 2: that are donated body. 581 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 3: Yes, that's a good point. Yeah, And actually I got to, 582 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 3: you know again, sort of doing a secondary version of this. 583 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 3: I actually made a fish mummy in my apartment in Washington, DC. 584 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 3: And you know, it's kind of sweltering hot right now, 585 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 3: and it was when I made that fish mummy. But 586 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 3: that fish I bought it whole from the store. It 587 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 3: never saw the inside of a refrigerator. And fish are 588 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 3: sort of a classic animal that you think is gonna 589 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 3: smell bad. It's not gonna last very long. But I 590 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 3: just mixed some baking soda and salt together, put it 591 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 3: in a casserole dish, and mummified this fish and it 592 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 3: went perfectly well. The fish never smelled, never got rotten. 593 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 3: I still have it on my counter today. It's perfectly preserved. 594 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 3: So it's pretty easy to do this project on your own, 595 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 3: and in some ways it sort of fulfills the Egyptian 596 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 3: traditions and that they mummified a lot of animals as 597 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 3: well as human beings. 598 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 2: Now, I want to make it clear for listeners out 599 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 2: there that I'm not asking you about even I think 600 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: half of the wonderful examples and topics you get into here. 601 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 2: There's a whole chapter dealing with with various Chinese traditions 602 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 2: and inventions. You deal with the multiple different time periods 603 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 2: and places. There's the Viking chapter. So I'm only scratching 604 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,719 Speaker 2: the surface here with my questions, but I am going 605 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: to ask you about the Meso American ballgame. This is 606 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: one that I think anyone who's ever even like casually 607 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 2: studied anything to do with az tech history and as 608 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 2: tech culture has come across examples of this tell us 609 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 2: a little bit about this and did you get to 610 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 2: play it? 611 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, So if you're not familiar with it, the Aztec 612 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 3: ballgame is a it's sort of a weird mashup of 613 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 3: maybe tennis and soccer, I guess is the way you 614 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 3: would describe it. You have two teams and you're knocking 615 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 3: a ball back and forth from one team to the other, 616 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 3: but you're also moving down the field trying to knocket 617 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 3: past your opponent's end line. And what makes this game 618 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 3: unusual is that you can't kick the ball. You can't 619 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 3: use your arms at all. You can only use your hips. 620 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 3: You have to turn and you have to hit the 621 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 3: ball with your hip. And when I was learning how 622 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,719 Speaker 3: to so it spoiler a bit, I guess I did 623 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 3: learn how to play the game. And when I was 624 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 3: learning how to do it, the instructor said, just do 625 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 3: a shakira, So you take your hip and you twist 626 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 3: it hit the ball with your hip like shakira. So 627 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 3: that kind of puts you in the mindset of what 628 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 3: it's like to play this game. And it was surprised 629 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 3: about a few things, especially the size of the ball, 630 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 3: in that it was roughly the size of a bowling 631 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 3: ball and it was also as heavy as a bowling 632 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 3: bar was. It was softer than a bowling ball because 633 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 3: it was made out of rubber, but it was solid 634 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 3: rubber all the way through. There was no inflatable bladder 635 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 3: or anything inside it. So it was a really heavy, 636 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 3: dense ball. And this is the ball that you're knocking 637 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 3: with your hips, hitting it back and forth. So imagine 638 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 3: basically sending a padded bowling ball bouncing back and forth 639 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 3: with your hip. So despite that, when I did get 640 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 3: to play this game, it was fun at first because 641 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 3: you serve the ball, toss it the other team, and 642 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 3: when the ball's bouncing back and forth, you know, you 643 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 3: kind of get the hang of it. You hit it 644 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 3: with your hip. It's sort of a fun little game. 645 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 3: The problem is, because the ball is so heavy, it 646 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 3: eventually loses momentum and starts rolling along the ground. And 647 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 3: again you can only hit it with your hip. So 648 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 3: you have to do is when the ball comes your way, 649 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 3: you have to drop to the ground. We were playing 650 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 3: on hard pavement here, not grass or anything. You have 651 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 3: to drop to the pavement and use your hip like 652 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 3: a pinball paddle essentially, and sort of swing it and 653 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 3: knock the ball back with your hip and then you 654 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 3: have to pop back up because it's a penalty if 655 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 3: you're still on the ground before the ball gets back 656 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 3: to the other team. You have to pop back up, 657 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 3: and then they'll hit it right back to you. You 658 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 3: have to drop to the ground again, hit it back, 659 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 3: pop up, and just keep doing this over and over 660 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 3: and over. It was like doing essentially one hundred berpies 661 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 3: in a row, except then you had to knock a 662 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 3: bowling ball back each time you did it. And before long, 663 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 3: maybe half an hour in, my legs were just quaking 664 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 3: with fatigue and cramping. I was really really hurting after 665 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 3: doing all of these calisthenics for a while, and eventually 666 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 3: I feel a bit craven about this, but eventually I 667 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 3: was hiding behind one of my teammates who happened to 668 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 3: be an eleven year old child, because I just couldn't 669 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 3: take this anymore going up and down, and the child 670 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 3: was very good. They were popping right up and down. 671 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,879 Speaker 3: She was just knocking the ball back and forth. So 672 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 3: I let her have her fun after a while and 673 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 3: sort of effectively quit playing this and then spent the 674 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 3: next day limping around Mexico City, where I ended up 675 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,359 Speaker 3: going to play it, just limping around, wincing every time 676 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 3: I had to use the stairs. But it really did 677 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 3: drive home what an unusual game this was. I played 678 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,919 Speaker 3: a lot of sports going up, but never anything like this. 679 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 3: And just how tough the people were who played this game, 680 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 3: because these games could go on for days at a 681 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 3: time sometimes and they actually used it as training for 682 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 3: war to toughen their warriors off. And I can really 683 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 3: see how it would be effective as training for soldiers, 684 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 3: because again, even after half an hour or so, I 685 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 3: was I was a hurting unit. 686 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 2: Yeah it's yeah, absolutely sounds brutal, and yeah, you can 687 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 2: see how it is, certainly based on your experiences here. 688 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 2: It's it's how it conditions the warrior. And yet it 689 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 2: does feel weirdly foreign compared to like modern so many 690 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 2: modern popular sports, but in a weird way, like how 691 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 2: is it really that different from soccer? We're kicking the 692 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 2: ball around? Is that? You know, it's it's not like 693 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 2: people kick each other in war, So I don't know, 694 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 2: it's it's it's it's I guess it's just a difficult 695 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 2: one to try and contemplate as like a modern, somewhat 696 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 2: familiar with modern sports. 697 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I guess I didn't even think about sports 698 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 3: as something you could really investigate with archaeology. We think 699 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 3: about them as much more of a modern phenomenon. And yeah, 700 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,399 Speaker 3: this was just kind of an unusual chance to do 701 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 3: something outside of the normal realm of recreating recipes, recreating tools, 702 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 3: things like that, to try out a sport that. Yeah, 703 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 3: you can definitely see affinities with modern sports, but it 704 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:12,760 Speaker 3: is its own distinct thing. 705 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 2: Now, on the subject of like recreating recreating history certainly 706 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 2: a huge part of experimental archaeology, tell us a little 707 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 2: bit about how you utilized fiction writing in this book, 708 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 2: using fiction alongside the nonfiction to recreate possible chapters from 709 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 2: the past. 710 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the book structure is a bit unusual. Each 711 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 3: chapter puts you in a specific time and a specific place. 712 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,439 Speaker 3: So one chapter is Africa seventy five thousand years ago, 713 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 3: another chapter is medieval China. You're in ancient Egypt, ancient Rome, 714 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 3: Viking time, Arctic a thousand years ago, a bunch of 715 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 3: different places. And the premise of each chapter was to 716 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 3: really immerse you and to spend a day in the 717 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 3: life of a person from that time and that place 718 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 3: and each of the things that I do and describe 719 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 3: the archaeological experiments are related to that time and place. 720 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 3: But overall, I thought, you know, fiction can do some 721 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 3: things that nonfiction cannot. It's a bit more immersive being 722 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,760 Speaker 3: in that character's point of view. So for each chapter, 723 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 3: there is a fictional sort of a short story, where 724 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,760 Speaker 3: you are in the character's mind going through a day 725 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 3: in their life, usually a pretty bad day, some dramatic 726 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 3: things happened to them, but you're going through a day 727 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 3: in their life, experiencing what they would have experienced. And 728 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 3: then the story, the fiction story sort of stops at 729 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 3: a dramatic moment, jumps to the nonfiction, and then I 730 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 3: come in, explain what they were doing, Explain how the 731 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 3: experimental archaeology works, stuff like that, who it fit in 732 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 3: with our culture. Then you jump back to the fiction 733 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 3: and it sort of alternates like that. But basically, the 734 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 3: fiction seemed like a better way to really immerse yourself 735 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 3: in that time and place, and it was a lot 736 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 3: of fun to write. All my books so far have 737 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 3: been strictly nonfiction. There's definitely a narrative component to it, 738 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 3: but this was explicitly fiction, and so it was a 739 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 3: kind of a fun experiment. 740 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 2: It's made for a fun reading experience as well. Oh 741 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 2: thank you. But I do have to wonder, though, is 742 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,359 Speaker 2: this because ultimately I can imagine thinking about this and 743 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 2: planning this out at the planning stage of the book, 744 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 2: and then it sounds like you kind of set yourself 745 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 2: up with a kind of a sizeable challenge to write. 746 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 2: In addition to the nonfiction portions of the book, what 747 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 2: ten or eleven short stories each set in a different time, 748 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 2: in place, and perspective. 749 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, it took a lot of reading to make sure 750 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 3: I got all the details right of all of these places, 751 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 3: and you know, not only what places looked like, but 752 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 3: also people's worldviews, how they thought about religion, how they 753 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 3: thought about family, all these different things. So it did 754 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 3: take a lot of reading. But I'd always been interested 755 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,240 Speaker 3: in these topics, and I'd been kind of gathering string 756 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 3: for this book for a while, so I had done 757 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 3: some of the reading ahead of time and could draw 758 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 3: on those kind of things. And I've been working on 759 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 3: this book since actually I think before the pandemic, so 760 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,919 Speaker 3: I've been put a lot of time and effort into 761 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 3: this one. So I think it paid off. I think 762 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 3: the richness of detail in each chapter really does bring a. 763 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 2: Live Yeah, the proof is in the pudding. So the 764 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 2: book again is Dinner with King Tide. How rogue archaeologists 765 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 2: are recreating the site, sound, smells, and tastes of lost civilizations. 766 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,280 Speaker 2: It's fantastic. Highly recommend it to listeners of this show, 767 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,439 Speaker 2: and as far as podcast listeners go, you also host 768 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 2: a podcast tell us a little bit about. 769 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 3: This I do. It's called Disappearing Spoon, which happens to 770 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 3: be the name of my first book, and if you're 771 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 3: familiar with that book, the podcast is actually on a 772 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 3: different topic. The book was about the periodic table. This 773 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 3: is more. I come across a lot of stories when 774 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 3: I'm doing research, really good, interesting stories about science and 775 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 3: history that just don't fit in the books that I'm writing. 776 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 3: And it always killed me to have no place for 777 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 3: these stories. I had this big file of orphan stories 778 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 3: that I had, but having the podcast gives me a 779 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 3: chance to put them out there. So I've done series 780 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 3: on things like you know, the dumbest mistake Einstein ever made? 781 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 3: Or you know how climate change could change the shape 782 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 3: of the human body, and things like that, So just 783 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 3: little snippets I've come across each one's pretty bite sized, 784 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 3: maybe twenty minutes or so, and yeah, they're out there, 785 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 3: little fun sized bits of science and history. 786 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,439 Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, Sam, thanks again for coming on the show 787 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 2: and chatting with me again. The book Dinner with King 788 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,359 Speaker 2: Tut fabulous read, highly recommend it. 789 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 790 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 2: Thanks all right, Thanks once again to Sam Keen for 791 00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 2: coming on the show and chatting with me again. His 792 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 2: website is Sam Keene dot com and the book is 793 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 2: Dinner with King Tut. How rogue archaeologists are recreating the 794 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 2: site Sound, Smells and Tastes of Lost Civilizations. It is 795 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 2: out in hardcover July eighth, twenty twenty five. Thanks as 796 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,879 Speaker 2: always to the excellent JJ Possway for producing the show 797 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 2: here and if you would like to ride in with 798 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 2: any feedback, if you would like to just touch base 799 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,399 Speaker 2: with Joe or myself, well you can email us at 800 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,280 Speaker 2: contact at Stuff to Blow your Mind. 801 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:38,839 Speaker 1: Dot Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. 802 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 803 00:42:42,280 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. 804 00:42:53,040 --> 00:43:01,879 Speaker 2: The pi ns A for a pub