WEBVTT - Steven Pressfield's Comeback Story 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:02.920 Before we dive into this week's episode, be sure to 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:06.920 follow leave a review like Comeback Stories, hit that subscribe 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.080 button so you don't miss any episodes. If there was 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.680 anything Donnie and I could ask of you guys, it 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:14.319 would be to give us a five star review in 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:16.680 a written review. Our mission has always been to reach 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:18.919 as many people as possible to remind that they're not 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:21.640 alone and that we all have a comeback story within us. 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:23.840 And we feel like you guys can definitely help us 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:26.840 push that message further by helping us in this way. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.440 So we appreciate you guys more than you'll ever know 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:31.920 all the times you've supported us from the beginning of 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.280 the show to this point. So thank you, and let's 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:36.640 drop in deep to this week's show. 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.160 All right, welcome back everyone. We are here for another 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.800 episode of Comeback Stories, and I'm here always with my 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:54.200 main man, Darren Waller. 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:58.080 How are you, brother, I'm fantastic, bro. Anytime I get 0:00:58.120 --> 0:00:59.360 taught to you, man, I'm doing great. 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:02.959 And this guest today, I mean, we'll just get right 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:06.679 into it. So our next guest you'll be hearing from today. 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.480 Wrote for twenty seven years before he got his first 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:13.320 novel published, and during that time he worked twenty one 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:18.640 different jobs in eleven different states. Today he's written over 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.920 like twenty books, yet his first one did not come 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.119 until he was fifty five years old, and since then 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:29.040 he's written bestsellers such as the Legend of bager Vance, 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:33.600 which later turned into an epic movie, The War of Art, 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:37.920 which changed my life forever, a book called Do the Work, 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.080 which is like the best title ever, and so many more. 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:44.520 And so Stephen Pressfield, welcome to the show Man. 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:47.760 Thanks for having me, Donnie and Darren's great to be 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:49.040 here with you guys. 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.000 I guess I should also mention the book Government Cheese, 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:55.720 which just came out, what in December, and thank you 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:59.480 for the gift spending this yeah, newly released. So you 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:00.720 just I'm coming. 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:04.920 Man, Yeah, that's that one is my comeback story. We just. 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.480 Yeah, I hope we get to uh well, I know 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:11.320 we're going to get to hear about that today, so 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.360 we like to dive right in. Can you tell us 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:16.799 what it was like for you growing up. 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:24.320 I had a real Ozzy and Harriet upbringing. You know, 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:29.799 I grew up in the suburbs of New York if anything, 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.400 you know, I went to a really good high school. 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.520 My mom and dad didn't get divorced. I didn't grow 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.720 up in the projects or anything like that, didn't have anything, 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:44.840 you know, If anything, my upbringing in terms of a 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:51.200 challenge was that it was too sheltered. That I was 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:55.720 never really exposed to a lot of the challenges that 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.600 you run into when you get to be an adult. 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:01.600 So you know what you were saying, Donnie, about how 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:05.799 it from the time I quitted my first job to 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.800 try to write. It was like twenty seven years before 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.679 I got a novel published, and that sort of I 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:14.960 don't know if I would call that a comeback, but 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:16.960 it was more of a kind of a journey through 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:20.720 the wilderness, you know, like twenty seven whatever. It was 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:24.400 twenty nine years of just kind of struggling to find 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:26.480 who I was and what my vocation was. 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:28.440 How would you say that? 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:29.160 It's interesting. 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.799 We just had another football player on we interviewed prior 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:36.880 to you, Austin Eckler, who talked about his childhood and 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:39.840 just how challenging it was and how hard he had 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:42.880 to work for certain things and it wasn't very sheltered 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.200 and it's actually shaped him into the machine that he 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.360 is today. And defining the odds being so small yet 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:51.520 you know, being able to be so successful. But how 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:56.400 do you feel like being too sheltered impacted you in 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.400 your i don't know, teenage years, your twenties. What did 0:03:59.400 --> 0:03:59.960 that look like? 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:05.240 Well, it just sort of compelled me. Once I became 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:10.320 an adult, my life sort of fell apart because because 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:12.640 of not really being ready for the stuff that you 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:17.240 were going to get. And then I kind of, uh 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.599 embarked upon a sort of a journey of real life, 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:25.960 you know, of hard knocks to uh to sort of 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.599 get back to a place where I felt like I 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:31.840 had my feet one. By the way, I'm a big 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.960 fan of Austin Ekeler. I wish the Raiders would drab 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:40.080 onto him as fast as they can. Uh. Yeah, he's 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.520 an amazing guy. You know. I got to watch that 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:43.679 episode for sure. 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:47.520 Well, and just for some context to our listeners, Steven 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:51.120 and his wife are massive Raiders fans. Steven's wife was 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:53.480 on here talking with us earlier, and she's the She 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.880 the president of the what was the fan club called again. 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:59.919 Women of Raider Nation. She founded Women of Raider. 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:04.839 Yeah, so they're they're currently grieving the loss of one 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:09.080 of their players shot. 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:12.400 Heartbroken shot. 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:15.960 But yeah, so I guess just getting back on track 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:19.000 to to your story. You talked about it, uh just 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:22.600 being sheltered. Can you talk about just going back, uh 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:25.640 into your childhood is as an early memory of pain 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:27.440 or struggle that you can remember. 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:31.680 You know, I'm probably going to disappoint you guys, and 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:36.680 I don't my childhood I don't really have. It wasn't 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.920 really that kind of upbringing, you know. If anything, I 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.240 think of it as kind of an idyllic upbringing that 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.120 I lived in a great little town. I had a 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:51.080 great high school, you know, friends, every everything. If you 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:55.479 on the surface, everything seemed seemed great. What what? What 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:57.960 was really going on with me at the deepest level 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.479 is that I was a writer. I'm born to be 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.560 a writer, but I never knew it and I never 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.520 could believe in it. I come from a family of 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:14.640 business people like you know, my uncles, my dad, everybody 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:19.360 sort of commuted to New York City or business people 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.880 like that were There were no artists in my family. 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:26.120 There was nobody that was in a creative field. I 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:30.160 was never exposed to that as any kind of I 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.800 had no role models in that area at all. Yet 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.800 that was kind of what I was. I was that 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.040 kind of you know, with all the things to go 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:43.040 with that, insecurities, the ego that goes with that, and 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:47.320 so that was really sort of part of my struggles 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:51.760 just to believe in what I already was, but I 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.040 didn't know and couldn't really grab a hold on with 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:58.000 any real faith. I'm sorry if I'm disappointed on a 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.080 come backstory. That's what it was. 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.239 Well and but you but you have one. I obviously 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.800 when we get into the the to the later years 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:09.760 of that gap of when you were writing for so long, 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.520 But I think it's interesting how you had this gift, 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.840 this gift of writing, but you were not able to 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.320 use the gift or you weren't using the gift, which ultimately, 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:23.240 I think is like when we talk about purpose, like 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:27.440 our purpose in life, our purpose isn't static, it's it's dynamic, 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:31.480 it's fluid. But what is consistent are our natural gifts 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.680 and talents. And if we're not using our natural gifts 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.440 and talents, ultimately we're not very happy, no matter how 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:39.880 much money we're making or how much success we're having 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.560 on the outside. So I think it's it's great to 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:46.040 bring that up and highlight the fact that you weren't 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.640 able to actually express or tap into your gift yet. 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:54.200 Yeah. The other thing is, you know, if you're you're 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:59.800 a natural athlete as a young person, you tap into 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:02.760 that right away. Right, it's very clear by the time 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.480 you're in fourth grade, fifty grade, or sixth grade. You know, Darren, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:09.440 I'm sure that was true for you, that people scouts 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.320 were looking at you and everybody in the family a 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:15.760 lot of times. You when you're a natural athlete, brothers, 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:19.080 big brothers, big sisters, whatever, your dad or whatever, who 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:22.600 are also so early on you sort of know that. 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.120 But if you're in the arts or particularly a writer, 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:29.680 you don't really come into your own. You've got like 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:33.360 a twenty year apprenticeship ahead of you, right, You got 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.600 to learn a lot of stuff, and not just the 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:43.000 skill of the craft, but what I would call the 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:49.160 soft skills, like how do you handle rejection, how do 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:53.199 you handle loneliness, how do you handle the indifference with people? 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.720 How do you handle the hospitility of people? How do 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:58.920 you believe in yourself, particularly when you start out and 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:02.720 you're no good, you know, you're a bum. You produce 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:06.880 that stuff and it sucks, you know, it's it's mediocre, 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:09.679 it's no good, and people tell you that, and so 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:13.199 you ask yourself, what am I doing? Am I crazy? 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.200 I mean, for years that was the real question I 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.240 was asking myself, and my family was asking because I was, 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.079 you know, a streamed from my family for years. You know, 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.199 I didn't talk to my parents, didn't talk to my brother, 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:31.079 and people sort of thought of me in my family 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.560 and people who knew me growing up, like, what's wrong 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:36.319 with this guy? What happened to him? 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:36.520 You know? 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:41.280 You know we you know, is he crazy? And of 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.240 course I'm asking that same question. Why do I keep 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:48.480 doing this dream? I keep writing screenplays, I keep writing books. 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.720 Nobody wants them. I can't get them published. You know. 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:55.480 I work a job. I save money for you know, 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:57.800 two or three years. I quit the job. I go, 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.320 I write a book. Nobody wants it. I work other jobs. 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:03.640 I saved more money. I write another guy, I write 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.760 another book after nobody wants it, you know, And so 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:12.200 you're asking yourself, like I say, am I crazy? What's 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:16.079 wrong with me? So I I it's different from being 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:21.559 an athlete, and it's just it's a long apprenticeship It's 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.680 like being a brain surgeon, except you're not in school. 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:27.560 At least be a brain surgeon, you can say, Okay, 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.120 I'm in my first medical school, I'm going somewhere. But 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.720 when you're trying to be a writer and everything you 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.800 do is getting rejected, you don't have anything to hang 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:41.520 on to at all. But that again, I think I'm 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.200 probably blathering on here, but I think in a way 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:50.160 that was great training for me and a great grounding 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:54.560 for me, because when you when you living with failure 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.400 so long, for me, you know, twenty plus years, twenty 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:02.160 seven years, you have to kind of ask yourself, why 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:04.800 am I doing it? You know, am I doing it 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.920 for money? Because if if that's the reason, I'm really wrong? 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:10.800 Am I doing it? You know? For women? Am I 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.000 doing it because you know what? Am I doing it? 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.640 And I eventually you have to answer the only answer 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:21.319 to me is that you can't. You're doing it for 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.400 the work it's done, you know. For me, the way 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:29.360 it translated was if I had another job. Let's say 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:31.559 I worked at an ad agency, which I did. You know, 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:34.319 it's a writer for an ant age. At the end 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.000 of the day I would come home, I'd be so 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:40.400 depressed that I just thought, I can't keep going like this. 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:43.200 The only thing that would save me was to try 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:46.480 to write a story, write a novel, write something like that, 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.080 even though nobody wanted so. The answer for me was, 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:53.840 I'm I'm a writer and I'm talking with it. I'm 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:56.839 going to do it no matter come hell or high water, 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.880 even though nobody is going to be any positive feed 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.480 And that, in a kind of a strange way, is 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:05.960 a really great ground for you, because at least your 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:07.880 feet are on the ground. You say, I don't give 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:10.840 a shit, I'm doing this, I'm in it all the way. 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.199 But it took a lot of years to get to 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:14.840 that place. 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.200 It sounds like you eventually had to detach from the 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:24.000 outcome of definitely where those where those books were going 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:26.240 to go, and just fall in love with the process, 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.760 knowing that it was the process that was actually giving 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.960 you the healing and the fulfillment where you were actually 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:35.760 using it. Maybe early on, I think that's any time. 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:37.600 I think the most important time of setting a goal, 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:40.040 or the most important part of setting a goal, is 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.320 detaching from the outcome because we don't have control over that, 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.400 and sometimes we get so attached and then we forget 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:48.000 as to why we're even doing it. 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:53.240 Yeah, it's really true, and I think it must be true, Daron. 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.080 It must be doing sports too. I mean, at some 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:59.360 point you have to ask yourself it's love of the game, right, 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:01.800 you know, because you're not going to be in the 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:03.920 super Bowl every year you're not, you know, you're going 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:06.920 to get hurt all kinds of you know, I would 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:10.840 imagine that you come back to just love of the game, right, 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:15.000 and love of your brothers that you're that you're fighting alongside. 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:20.800 But if I can throw something else in here, I'm 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.840 thinking of people who are listening here. The other aspect 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:27.560 of being in the creative arts, of being a writer, 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:31.440 being any kind of an artist, is that you have 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:36.720 to ask yourself where do ideas come from? And you 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.760 realize very soon you're a songwriter for you whatever it is, 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:45.160 that the stuff that you're producing is coming from someplace else. 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:50.040 You know, there's a whole other dimension of reality that 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:54.480 you have to sort of tap into and I have 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.079 found and so that makes you kind of humble in 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.760 a way. You know, it makes you, It makes it 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.199 This is like the spiritual side of it. You know 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:10.400 that you can't have an ego, because if you're really honest, 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:12.720 you know that the stuff that's coming out of you 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.400 is coming from some other place. And I've found that 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.040 that the books that I wrote that had the most success, 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.080 like The Legend of Bag or Each the Fire. I 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.160 don't know if you know that book about the three 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:30.040 hundred spart Mornopoly, but those were two books that when first, 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.400 first of all, I had no idea where they were 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.840 coming from. It wasn't that I planned them or I thought, oh, 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.760 this is a great idea, you know, not at all. 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.440 They sort of rupped me completely by surprise. They sort 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.040 of seized me so that I had no choice except 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:50.800 to write them. And while I was writing them, if 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:55.000 I thought to myself, I asked myself, are these commercial? 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:57.920 Are they going to sell? I would say to myself, 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:02.320 absolutely not. These are the dumbest idea is commercial wise? 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.600 That I can imagine a golf story that's sort of mystical, 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.520 or then a story about a battle that took place, 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:12.320 you know, twenty five hundred years ago that nobody can 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:16.000 spell or pronounce, and no Americans are involved with them. 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:21.520 And those turned out to be the best and coming 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.840 out of nowhere and asking myself what do I know 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:27.000 about it? I don't know anything about this sort of stuff. 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.080 I'm just just, you know, opening up the can and 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:38.040 waging it. So that's another aspect that doesn't come to 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:42.280 fruition until many years in the process. You know, Like 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.600 I say, I was in my fifties before I felt 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:47.760 like my feet were really on the ground. 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.200 I can really speak to that as well. I'm a creator. 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:56.000 I make music, I produce, I record myself. So I'm 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.760 on that journey and I think the same way. 0:15:58.800 --> 0:15:58.960 You know. 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.040 I heard if you know who Pharrell is, but I 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:04.000 heard him in an interview. He's talking about how ideas 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.600 are He's like, the universe is like a library and 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.320 that if you're tapped in to a particular mode, particular 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.840 space spiritually, like you can check out certain ideas from 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.720 that library. And I feel like I'm the same way anytime, 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.040 anytime I've ever tried to make a song happen or 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:24.600 you know, force lyrics onto a page like it doesn't work. 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:26.880 But I, like you said, where these ideas come from? 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:29.280 I ask myself the same thing, because they'll hit me 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:30.800 out of nowhere, they'll hit me in a car, they'll 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.880 hit me in three in the morning. They'll hit me 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:36.520 in times and then they'll just start to flow out, 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:38.960 and it's like, this isn't all me. I'm almost just 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:42.000 like a channel here. So it's like I definitely relate 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:43.480 to that, and I'm sure a lot of artists do 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:47.000 as well. And I'm interested to dive more into your 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.520 journey because me talk about not having your first novel 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:54.600 published to your fifty five and not only does I 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.440 take an extreme amount of endurance, I feel like, but 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.520 also can you talk to us about what the battles 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:04.640 were like with self doubt, with potentially like different forms 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:07.640 of self sabotage. I know, I'm I've been a master 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.199 of self sabotage myself. Like, what are some of the 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:14.480 battles that you were facing internally along this journey. 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:19.639 Ah, that's a great question. You know. In my book 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.480 The War of Art that you mentioned, Donnie, which is 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:27.680 really about the creative process, I give a name to 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:31.240 to this force that I call resistance with a capital R. 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:36.440 And resistance to me is you're a writer and you 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:40.159 sit down in front of one of these things, you 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:44.920 can feel this force radiating off of the screen or 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:49.600 the keyboard and it's trying to stop you from doing 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:54.600 your thing right. And and the form it takes is 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:58.360 a voice in your head, and you think it's yourself 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.320 thinking these thoughts, but it's really not. It's really this 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.240 negative thing. And the thoughts that it puts in your 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:10.720 head are you're no good, you have no tenants. The 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.840 idea that you have right now is worthless. It's been 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:17.760 done one hundred times before, better than you'll ever do it. 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:20.720 Who do you think you are? You have too much education, 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:23.800 not enough education, You're too old, you're too young, you're 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:25.800 too fat, you're too thin, you're the wrong race, you're 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.399 the wrong sex. Whatever. It'll tell you all that. The 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:31.760 other thing it'll do is it will try to distract you. 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.040 And this is where addictions and stuff come in. Right, 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.960 It'll say, let's have a drink, you know, let's light 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:42.960 up a dobe, let's go hang out at the beach, whatever, right, 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:47.800 trying to get you off off the track. So and 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:51.520 one of the big things it'll do is it'll inflict 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:55.800 you with self doubt. And I have I have a 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.879 theory I believe this absolutely after all the many books 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.199 I've written. Is that if you start on a project, 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:07.960 and you don't have self doubt, something's wrong. You should 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:13.199 have massive self doubt or something's from something's wrong, you know, 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.080 because again, one of the laws of resistance for the 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:23.280 capital R is that the bigger your idea a book, 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.480 let's say, or a song or whatever, the more resistance 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:31.080 you will feel, the more self doubt you will feel. 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.040 So if you don't feel self doubt, that's a very 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:38.480 bad sign. It shows you a little tiny idea. But 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:40.760 if you have a big idea in a sense when 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:43.520 I say big, I mean in the sense of it's 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:49.040 important to the evolution of your soul, a big idea 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:53.199 equals big resistance, big self doubt. So so there, And 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.360 to answer your question, self doubt is like wakes up 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:00.200 with me every morning to this day. It's a it's 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:04.720 our constant battle with that and I've sort of made 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.960 friends with it away. Like I say, if I don't 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:14.719 feel it, then I worry. But yeah, so yeah, anyway, 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.040 that's that's my short answer to that one. 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:21.200 No, I'm actually very encouraged by the answer, as somebody 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:25.920 that you know, I've been very successful in my football 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:28.320 career and you know, I feel like i'm really you know, 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:32.040 I'm six years into making music, five years into making beats, 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.120 so I'm like really starting to find starting to find 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.840 my sound. I feel like in that and uh, but 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.760 the self doubt doesn't really go anywhere for long periods 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:44.120 of time. There's times where I feel peace, times where 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:48.359 I feel confidence, but that self doubt always finds a 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:50.919 way to loop back around. But this, what you just 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:54.160 said is so encouraging because it's almost like I feel 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:57.119 a lot of opposition. I feel I feel the resistance 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.399 with a lot of the ideas that I have pretty 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:02.000 much every single one, whether it be music, whether it 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:04.240 be where I want to take my career, where I 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.040 want to be as far as service and my foundation work. 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:10.040 So it's like, honestly, if I'm facing that opposition, I'm 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:10.840 on the right track. 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:12.760 Like if you are that. 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.919 Resistance, I'm really doing something that's meaningful or that's going 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:19.119 to be able to have an impact in the in 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:23.360 its right timing. So the way that you said that 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:25.960 in place that it's like that's very encouraging for me 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.520 because I want to run from resistance usually I want 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:30.200 to go the opposite way. I want the path of 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:35.359 least resistance. That's just yeah, yeah, that's our default character 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.280 as human beings. I feel like, have you. 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:40.720 Guys interviewed Rick Rubin on the shil. 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:44.119 I would love to interview Rick Rubin. That would be 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:46.360 that would be an amazing guess. 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:48.160 Well, you probably would be able to get him because 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:51.159 he's got his new book. But the one thing I 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:53.320 would you know, we all know like Rick Rubin is 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:55.560 sort of like the godfather of hip hop, right. He's 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:58.320 He's worked with so many bands and groups, and if 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:02.240 you think about it, I think what he does or 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.399 groups that he brings into his studios and training re 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:11.600 law is he eases their self down. Right. He's sort 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.919 of the guru. He's walking around his bare feet, with 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:17.560 his beard and everything, and he kind of creates this 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:19.960 sort of really safe space for them. And he says, 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:22.600 basically I think what he said. I've never been there 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.760 to watch him. I'm sure what he basically communicates to 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:31.200 them is let it rip, baby, you know you're safe here. 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:35.240 I don't care if you fail. Go big, go do 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:38.080 something you think is never going to work. And it's 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:40.960 constantly encouraging them to do that. So I think, like 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:47.000 any of us, Darren, you and me, whatever, Donnie, we 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:49.720 sort of have to do that for ourselves. We got 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:54.200 to be our own Rick Ruben, you know, and tell ourselves, 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:58.239 you know, really really go for it, you know, go 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:01.480 for the ideas that seem like dum much ideas. 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:04.840