1
00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:05,720
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Chuck here with this week Saturday Select. That's

2
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:10,880
Speaker 1: when Josh and I curate specially selected episodes to rerun

3
00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,039
Speaker 1: that may be a few years old. They may be

4
00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,560
Speaker 1: oh heck, they may be ten years old, maybe even older.

5
00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,520
Speaker 1: You never know, because a lot of people don't know

6
00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,600
Speaker 1: these episodes even exist. So that's why we do this.

7
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,319
Speaker 1: So anyway, this one's on birth order. It's called is

8
00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,400
Speaker 1: Birth Order Important? I believe this was originally a Chuck

9
00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,000
Speaker 1: idea to begin with. This is from April twenty three,

10
00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,360
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, and I am just pretty obsessed with birth order,

11
00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:37,000
Speaker 1: and so that's why I picked it to begin with,

12
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,240
Speaker 1: and that's why I'm picking it again right now.

13
00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:52,720
Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

14
00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,200
Speaker 3: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's

15
00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,600
Speaker 3: Charles Aby, Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry over there, and this

16
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,200
Speaker 3: is Stuff If you Should Know. Jerry cast Jerry, were

17
00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:09,840
Speaker 3: you a uh what was your birth order? Oh, Jerry's

18
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,119
Speaker 3: a middle child two of two or two of more.

19
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:14,559
Speaker 3: So you're the baby.

20
00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:15,920
Speaker 1: You don't know this?

21
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,400
Speaker 3: No? Did you? Sure?

22
00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,560
Speaker 1: No? I've know Jerry for like thirteen years. Hey, So

23
00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,680
Speaker 1: have I, Well, not that long twelve years, so have I?

24
00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:25,720
Speaker 1: No no comment?

25
00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:29,200
Speaker 3: What am I?

26
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,680
Speaker 1: I don't know? That's right, I know what I'm the baby,

27
00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:33,080
Speaker 1: you know that.

28
00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't ask what you were. I know you

29
00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:36,679
Speaker 3: know what you are? What am I?

30
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,480
Speaker 1: This isn't quiz not You're not gonna just yeah, yeah,

31
00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:43,520
Speaker 1: I wasn't calling you out. Oh well I was calling

32
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,440
Speaker 1: you out. You were in a humorous way, and I

33
00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,880
Speaker 1: called you out. It's hard not to look at this

34
00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 1: stuff through your own lens though, of your own family.

35
00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,040
Speaker 3: You know, are you changing the subject?

36
00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,800
Speaker 1: Well, no, I'm getting on with it. Oh okay, because

37
00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,880
Speaker 1: as the youngest of three and all of us have

38
00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,320
Speaker 1: three distinct personalities, it's hard not to kind of like

39
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,760
Speaker 1: think about birth order right and if that's a thing right,

40
00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,600
Speaker 1: And it may be and it may not be. Yeah,

41
00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,680
Speaker 1: depends on which scientist you're asking.

42
00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,160
Speaker 3: I tend to think like, there's just no way it

43
00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 3: doesn't have any effect.

44
00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,200
Speaker 1: Now there, I think it definitely has an effect. But

45
00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,400
Speaker 1: as we will see, it is one part of a

46
00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:24,760
Speaker 1: huge pie.

47
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:25,880
Speaker 3: Yes, that.

48
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,359
Speaker 1: Indicates what kind of person and personality you might have. Well.

49
00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:37,079
Speaker 3: Plus also it's devilishly tricky to analyze to study because

50
00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,800
Speaker 3: of how big that pie is. Yeah, there's so much

51
00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,119
Speaker 3: going on with your personality that to just pinpoint one thing,

52
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,840
Speaker 3: even a big thing like that where you're born in

53
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,880
Speaker 3: a family, but it's just tough to pin down. So

54
00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,519
Speaker 3: you're the youngest, right, good guess, Yes, I am. I

55
00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,959
Speaker 3: knew you were the youngest. I'm like, I wear that

56
00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:00,480
Speaker 3: on my sleeve.

57
00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:02,079
Speaker 1: I feel like I kind of do too.

58
00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,120
Speaker 3: Mmy, I guess in some ways, but like I was

59
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,560
Speaker 3: reading this checklist for the youngest. Yeah, I'm like, yeah,

60
00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,560
Speaker 3: I guess. So let's let's let's do it.

61
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,520
Speaker 1: Should we go over that that stuff first?

62
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 3: Yeah? Totally all right.

63
00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,760
Speaker 1: So this is like the sort of macro view of

64
00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,359
Speaker 1: how a lot of people think of birth order pop psychology.

65
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, so if you were born into a family, there's

66
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,600
Speaker 3: basically four ways that you can be born in some

67
00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,880
Speaker 3: sort of order. You can be the first born, you

68
00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,160
Speaker 3: can be a middle child, or you can be the

69
00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,400
Speaker 3: last born. And then if you're a real outlier, Okay,

70
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,640
Speaker 3: you're right, so there's five or triplet. Oh god, yeah,

71
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 3: get me started. Let's just say a multi okay, a multi,

72
00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,560
Speaker 3: or you can be an only child too, sure, and

73
00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,760
Speaker 3: all of them have distinct personalities, again according to pop psychology,

74
00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,280
Speaker 3: but also according to every person who's ever been born

75
00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,240
Speaker 3: into a family, especially and so with the firstborn. The

76
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,800
Speaker 3: whole theory of basically birth order, where you're born into

77
00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,680
Speaker 3: the family unit that you're born into, and what effect

78
00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,040
Speaker 3: that has on your personality and how it develops, It

79
00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,360
Speaker 3: all seems to come down to this idea that you

80
00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,960
Speaker 3: are born into a family where there is a finite

81
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,120
Speaker 3: resource called parental attention, and then that is a pie

82
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 3: that gets increasingly divided up into smaller and smaller pieces

83
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,920
Speaker 3: the more and more children that are born, because your

84
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,880
Speaker 3: parents can't possibly give five kids the same amount of

85
00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,919
Speaker 3: attention that they could give an only child. It's just

86
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,400
Speaker 3: not possible. And so what dynamics are created in the

87
00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,600
Speaker 3: personality of the kids born into that family depending on

88
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,479
Speaker 3: how many others are born and depending on where they

89
00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,719
Speaker 3: fall in that birth order. That's kind of the premise

90
00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,960
Speaker 3: of the whole thing. And over time people have said, well,

91
00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,719
Speaker 3: this is what the firstborn's like, this is what the

92
00:04:58,720 --> 00:04:59,840
Speaker 3: middles like, this is what.

93
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,400
Speaker 1: The yeah, and there were I mean a lot of

94
00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,880
Speaker 1: this are these are generalizations, but they are generalizations. Like

95
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 1: you said, that kind of everyone who's ever been in

96
00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,840
Speaker 1: a family can kind of say, yeah, that's kind of true, right.

97
00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,560
Speaker 1: You know, when you have an only or your first kid,

98
00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 1: they this article references as that first sort of experiment.

99
00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,760
Speaker 1: You don't know what you're doing yet You're probably going

100
00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,640
Speaker 1: all in, depending on how lazy you are, how motivated

101
00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,679
Speaker 1: you are as a parent with this, you know, being

102
00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,839
Speaker 1: a super parent. And then if supposedly as you have

103
00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,040
Speaker 1: more children you get it's not only as your attention divided,

104
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,240
Speaker 1: I think, but there's the notion that you also are like,

105
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,360
Speaker 1: you know, I probably don't need to be as crazy

106
00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,000
Speaker 1: with number two and number three, leave them to their

107
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,320
Speaker 1: own devices as a third kid. I'm not going to

108
00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,360
Speaker 1: get into too many depressing details of my family growing up,

109
00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,120
Speaker 1: but like by the time I was ten and eleven,

110
00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,760
Speaker 1: my parents had other things going on. Yeah, and I

111
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 1: wasn't fair with.

112
00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,960
Speaker 3: Other kids on the side.

113
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,200
Speaker 1: Not exactly. I wasn't fair old by any means, but

114
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,400
Speaker 1: I was. I did not have rules imposed on me

115
00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,360
Speaker 1: like my brother and sister did. I did not have.

116
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,440
Speaker 1: I was allowed to go to Panama City for spring

117
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,240
Speaker 1: break and they weren't. I was allowed to kind of

118
00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,120
Speaker 1: do my own thing, and I was trustworthy, so that

119
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,839
Speaker 1: probably had a lot to do with it. Yeah, if

120
00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:29,200
Speaker 1: I would have been a real problem, they might have

121
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,000
Speaker 1: clamped down a little more, or maybe not.

122
00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,760
Speaker 3: And they probably wouldn't have necessarily clamped down like we

123
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,400
Speaker 3: need to give Chuck way more attention and guidance than

124
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,839
Speaker 3: we have been. They would have probably been.

125
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:39,800
Speaker 1: Like crime and punishment.

126
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,880
Speaker 3: They would have been like we're sending Chuck to rehab

127
00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:43,840
Speaker 3: or whatever, you know what I mean, Let rehab take

128
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,599
Speaker 3: care of her, reform school or something like that. Because

129
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,440
Speaker 3: once you get X number of kids in, you're just

130
00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,560
Speaker 3: so tired. Yeah, so tired. And you're older too. Sure,

131
00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,800
Speaker 3: like when you're chasing a little kid around in like

132
00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,000
Speaker 3: your forties or fifties, that's different than when you're chasing

133
00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:01,679
Speaker 3: a little kid around in your mid twenties.

134
00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,640
Speaker 1: I can't imagine a world of difference.

135
00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,600
Speaker 3: You know. So there's there's there's a lot of resources,

136
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,040
Speaker 3: not just you know, parents' attention, but also their time,

137
00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,360
Speaker 3: intellectual attention that they'll give a kid, like and say

138
00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,640
Speaker 3: like hanging out, teaching the kid to read that kind

139
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,440
Speaker 3: of stuff, and just attention in general, and also financial resources,

140
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,440
Speaker 3: the family's resources in general, are a pie that must

141
00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 3: be divided among.

142
00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:34,240
Speaker 1: All the financial, emotional, all that stuff instructive. So generally speaking, firstborn's,

143
00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 1: people say, tend to be very conscientious and structured and

144
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,680
Speaker 1: reliable and achieve high achievers.

145
00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:48,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, because their parents are focusing like a laser on them.

146
00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,440
Speaker 3: They know everything that kids got going on, maybe a

147
00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,040
Speaker 3: little too much, and the kid is responding to this

148
00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,240
Speaker 3: by basically becoming a perfectionist and really wanting to be

149
00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,960
Speaker 3: around their parents and.

150
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:03,640
Speaker 1: Their parents' friends.

151
00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,160
Speaker 3: More mature, very much mature, because they're all of the

152
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,000
Speaker 3: people are most of the people are hanging out with

153
00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:10,520
Speaker 3: are adults.

154
00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:11,040
Speaker 1: Yep.

155
00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,360
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's a firstborn typically, right, everybody knows it.

156
00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:16,560
Speaker 3: Don't try to deny it.

157
00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,280
Speaker 1: Middles in general are people pleasing, which is so my brother.

158
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 3: That's weird to me because when I think of middle children,

159
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 3: I think of jam Brady and Jan Brady was not

160
00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,280
Speaker 3: a people pleaser. She was just you know, a lump,

161
00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:33,600
Speaker 3: like a lump with a cloud over head.

162
00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:34,720
Speaker 1: Poor Jan.

163
00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,840
Speaker 3: But that's true, Like I would not characterize jam Brady

164
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,600
Speaker 3: as a people pleaser, would you know? Like she was

165
00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,040
Speaker 3: going to burn something down eventually. If the Brady bunch

166
00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:45,520
Speaker 3: had stayed on the air long enough.

167
00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,400
Speaker 1: Was also a blended family. So what was uh yeah,

168
00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,000
Speaker 1: who was the It was Bobby and then Peter was from.

169
00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,520
Speaker 3: The lateral, I guess you'd call it was he was

170
00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:59,840
Speaker 3: he a people pleaser or just Jan more than Jan.

171
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,600
Speaker 3: But blended families do confound things. We'll get into that

172
00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:04,200
Speaker 3: yet for.

173
00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,720
Speaker 1: Sure, but people pleasing, somewhat rebellious, which is not my

174
00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,480
Speaker 1: brother at all, large social circle, not really my brother,

175
00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,040
Speaker 1: and a peacemaker, totally my brother. He's the best, He's

176
00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:21,880
Speaker 1: the best. And then the youngings, youngies young'in's like us,

177
00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:31,200
Speaker 1: most free spirited, fun loving, uncomplicated, manipulative. I've been called

178
00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,160
Speaker 1: some of these things severing degrees, self centered, attention seeking and.

179
00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,520
Speaker 3: Outgoing check and check.

180
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,080
Speaker 1: But combined you and I and we're sort of like

181
00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,160
Speaker 1: the proto youngest uncomplicated.

182
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,199
Speaker 3: Though I'm like, I don't get that. I'm exquisitely complicated.

183
00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,520
Speaker 1: I'm on the surface you wouldn't think it, but I'm

184
00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,480
Speaker 1: pretty complicated, sure, as we all know in this room.

185
00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:57,320
Speaker 3: But that's the only one that I'm like that I question. Yeah,

186
00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,040
Speaker 3: all the rest of them are like, yeah, that makes sense.

187
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,640
Speaker 1: It's like the Chinese zodiac. You look at that menu

188
00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,520
Speaker 1: and you're like total dog.

189
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,800
Speaker 3: Yes, and movie guy pant sounds great right now?

190
00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:12,400
Speaker 1: Only no siblings. You are what they call almost like

191
00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,080
Speaker 1: a super firstborn.

192
00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:15,360
Speaker 3: So sounds scary.

193
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,920
Speaker 1: All the traits of a firstborn on steroids, very much perfectionists,

194
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:26,640
Speaker 1: very much more mature for your age, conscientious, diligent, prone.

195
00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,719
Speaker 3: To be leader, can leap over tall buildings.

196
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,920
Speaker 1: And then this is where it gets interesting, and this

197
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:33,960
Speaker 1: sort of starts.

198
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,760
Speaker 3: To finally, everybody, this is where it starts to get interested.

199
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:38,280
Speaker 1: Well, this is where it gets in a little bit,

200
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,800
Speaker 1: like how complicated it can get because there's so many

201
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:47,040
Speaker 1: factors at play, Like what if you're in a blended family,

202
00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,800
Speaker 1: because that kind of throws it all out of whack. Yeah, dude, can.

203
00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:55,640
Speaker 3: If you're born a firstborn and you your parents, your

204
00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:57,920
Speaker 3: parents get divorce and you go with your mom who

205
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 3: gets remarried to a dude who has.

206
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,719
Speaker 1: Brady Yes to a smashing cool architect.

207
00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,720
Speaker 3: For sure, and he has a kid that's a little

208
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,600
Speaker 3: older than you, Greg, Greg's the firstborn. You're not the

209
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,200
Speaker 3: firstborn anymore. The best you can hope for is to

210
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,000
Speaker 3: form some sort of confederacy or alliance with Greg to

211
00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,760
Speaker 3: rule the rest of the siblings. But you're not the

212
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,200
Speaker 3: head honcho anymore. You're not in charge. That's a big deal.

213
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,000
Speaker 3: I can't imagine many more traumatic experiences, especially when that

214
00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,640
Speaker 3: follows closely on the heels of your parents divorce or

215
00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,120
Speaker 3: the death of like your other parent. That's got to

216
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,160
Speaker 3: be one of the most traumatic things a kid can

217
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,800
Speaker 3: go through is to lose their identified perch in the

218
00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:40,680
Speaker 3: family order.

219
00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's we were talking about, like the firstborn,

220
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,079
Speaker 1: like the baby of the family. If all of a

221
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,960
Speaker 1: sudden there's a younger, no good, no, Like I remember

222
00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,760
Speaker 1: my parents for some reason talking about adopting a kid.

223
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,280
Speaker 1: I can't remember how old I was. I must have

224
00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:01,000
Speaker 1: been about seven, and I remember breaking down and crying

225
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,199
Speaker 1: and just being like, you can't do this, you cannot

226
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,880
Speaker 1: bring it someone younger and cuter right than me. And

227
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,600
Speaker 1: that happens blended family. All of a sudden, you have

228
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,600
Speaker 1: be a younger or god forbid, a baby. Just forget

229
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:16,920
Speaker 1: about it.

230
00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:17,880
Speaker 3: I can't compete with that.

231
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:19,240
Speaker 1: You gotta kill that baby.

232
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,800
Speaker 3: Well, that's what happened too. When Brady Bunch started to

233
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,600
Speaker 3: lose ratings. Apparently your family was losing ratings. So they

234
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,280
Speaker 3: brought in cousin Oliver a new baby, and I don't

235
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,200
Speaker 3: think Bobby was very happy about that either.

236
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,400
Speaker 1: No, but just think about jan it all makes a

237
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,640
Speaker 1: little bit more sense. Like she was like, I'm the

238
00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:38,640
Speaker 1: middle child, and then they brought in three more and

239
00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:39,880
Speaker 1: she was like, I'm even more.

240
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,360
Speaker 3: Middle Yeah, you're deluded. The middle child is deluded. And

241
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,880
Speaker 3: if you have multiple middle children, forget about it.

242
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,199
Speaker 1: That's right. However, here's the thing with blended families. They

243
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,760
Speaker 1: say by about the age of five that a lot

244
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,640
Speaker 1: of your personality is set. So if you're older than

245
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,280
Speaker 1: five and all of a sudden your family is blended,

246
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,600
Speaker 1: they say, it may not make that much of a difference.

247
00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 3: No, no, No, that's where it's trouble. If you're younger than

248
00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,400
Speaker 3: five and you your personality is a little more plastic.

249
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,240
Speaker 3: If you were born a baby of the family and

250
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,640
Speaker 3: suddenly you're a first born or you're not there, or

251
00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,240
Speaker 3: you're a middle kid, yeah, you'll adapt to that a

252
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,400
Speaker 3: lot better than you would if you're like older and

253
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,760
Speaker 3: you're you're more solid in your birth order.

254
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. I didn't mean not trouble. What I meant was like,

255
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:28,840
Speaker 1: if you're like twelve years old and the family blending happens,

256
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,720
Speaker 1: it's trouble, but it's not like your personality is like

257
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,080
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I'm the youngest or you know

258
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like, you don't all of a sudden

259
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,600
Speaker 1: swap to a different birth order personality, I don't think.

260
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,360
Speaker 3: Right, But if you're younger and it happens, you.

261
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,680
Speaker 1: Do right under the age of five, which.

262
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,160
Speaker 3: Goes to show that if this is a thing, and

263
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,680
Speaker 3: we'll talk about whether it is or not soon. Yeah,

264
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,760
Speaker 3: it has nothing to do with biology, has everything to

265
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,360
Speaker 3: do with with nurture, not nature, because a kid can

266
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,520
Speaker 3: adapt depending on when this happens, they can adapt to

267
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,679
Speaker 3: a change in birth order if they're young enough. Yeah,

268
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 3: that means it has nothing to do with biology. It's

269
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,960
Speaker 3: all the environment you're raised in, which is the most

270
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,599
Speaker 3: boneheadedly obvious thing on the planet.

271
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,199
Speaker 1: And then before we take a break, there are also

272
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,920
Speaker 1: gap children. Supposedly, if there's at least a five year

273
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,480
Speaker 1: gap between births, then it just sort of resets.

274
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,560
Speaker 3: That was like me and my oldest sister. She was

275
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,960
Speaker 3: thirteen years older than me, right, she was just like

276
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,040
Speaker 3: this older, cool person, but not like an old, older sister,

277
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,640
Speaker 3: not at all overbearing, like really like for me, I

278
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,560
Speaker 3: guess a little bit, yeah, or like a second mom

279
00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,480
Speaker 3: kind of to an extent.

280
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,640
Speaker 1: Because that does happen too if there's a big gap

281
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,520
Speaker 1: or a big family. Like I dated a girl in

282
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,400
Speaker 1: New Jersey that had that was like six or seven

283
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,280
Speaker 1: of them, and by the time she came around, she

284
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,280
Speaker 1: was kind of fully being raised by her siblings.

285
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 3: Right, right, So what happens when there's enough of a gap,

286
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,920
Speaker 3: a new family birth order forms. So like if you

287
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,640
Speaker 3: have an oldest and then there's multiple years, like say

288
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,800
Speaker 3: ten years between your oldest and your middle and then

289
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,960
Speaker 3: two years between your middle and your baby, the middle

290
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,440
Speaker 3: and the baby are going to form a firstborn and

291
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,800
Speaker 3: a last born type relationship.

292
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the last born is always going to be

293
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,920
Speaker 1: the last born, yes, regardless of gap.

294
00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 3: But then twins, like you were saying, is one last

295
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:31,480
Speaker 3: confounding thing. They twins or triplets multiples as you call them. Yeah,

296
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,360
Speaker 3: I think so. They form their own family unit within

297
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,040
Speaker 3: the family two with each other. And apparently no matter

298
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,400
Speaker 3: where they're born, twins never act like middle kids. They

299
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,280
Speaker 3: always act like the firstborn or the baby, but to

300
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:46,240
Speaker 3: one another.

301
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,240
Speaker 1: Right, and I think they generally come together to kill

302
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:50,200
Speaker 1: the parents.

303
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,920
Speaker 3: Basically, right, they hold hands, it's like an elevator of

304
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:54,320
Speaker 3: blood washes around them.

305
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 1: And then finally, with adoption, they say that depending on

306
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,840
Speaker 1: when your child has adopted, the same kind of scenario

307
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,720
Speaker 1: scenario happens as in like with gapped and blended.

308
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,240
Speaker 3: Families, Whereas, if the kid's young enough, he or she

309
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,920
Speaker 3: will tailor their their their birth ordered to the family

310
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,480
Speaker 3: that they're adopted into. But if they're older, there'll be trouble.

311
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,520
Speaker 1: All right, that's a good overview, I think.

312
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,840
Speaker 3: I think it was a great overview, Chuck. We're glowing

313
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 3: from it.

314
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,760
Speaker 1: We're gonna you do have that overview, glow. We're gonna

315
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 1: take a break, and we're gonna talk about science right after.

316
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:56,520
Speaker 3: This, all right, Chuck, as promised, we're going to talk

317
00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,240
Speaker 3: about science, because, like I said, this is so owe

318
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 3: headed and obvious that every single person who's ever been

319
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:07,159
Speaker 3: born into a family, everybody knows the stuff. But as

320
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,080
Speaker 3: far as science is concerned, this is not proven that

321
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,359
Speaker 3: birth order effects as they're called, actually exist. That science

322
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,800
Speaker 3: is saying, hold your cell, your role, everybody. We can't

323
00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:24,600
Speaker 3: actually prove that what everybody knows is actually true. Some

324
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,320
Speaker 3: studies show that, yes, there is such a thing as

325
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,399
Speaker 3: birth order effects. Other studies show that there is no

326
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,640
Speaker 3: birth order effect whatsoever. And then some studies suggest that

327
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,600
Speaker 3: if there are birth order effects, they're so small that

328
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,200
Speaker 3: they are basically a blip on your personality. That all

329
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 3: the other factors that form your personality, things like the

330
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:49,280
Speaker 3: socioeconomic status of the family you're born into, your racial background,

331
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,760
Speaker 3: your gender, all the other stuff that is what really

332
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,920
Speaker 3: forms your personality, not the order you're born into your family.

333
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,680
Speaker 3: That's kind of science's position right now.

334
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, But what they all agree on is that it

335
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 1: is therapy.

336
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 3: Cash cow right, that, yes, it's a good it's a

337
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,200
Speaker 3: useful framework to approach psychotherapy from it.

338
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,879
Speaker 1: They all want to talk about it at high hourly rates.

339
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,439
Speaker 3: See. To me, I'm like, this is sure, this is

340
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,639
Speaker 3: exactly what forms your personality. But I get science's position.

341
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:23,359
Speaker 3: I respect it.

342
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,800
Speaker 1: So if we go back in time to the early

343
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,439
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, it was a man named Alfred Adler. He

344
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 1: was a part of a He was a contemporary of Freud,

345
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,480
Speaker 1: and this is when all these dudes were getting together

346
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,000
Speaker 1: to talk about all this stuff. In this burgeoning science,

347
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,600
Speaker 1: and they all thought they were so cool and important,

348
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:47,240
Speaker 1: And he was one of the only ones among his

349
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,320
Speaker 1: peers though at the time, that was talking about birth

350
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,840
Speaker 1: order that early. And he went on to form what

351
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:59,680
Speaker 1: we know is Atlarian psychology or individual psychology, and it's

352
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 1: based therapy based on how you perceive your own level

353
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,760
Speaker 1: of power in your family, at your workplace.

354
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 3: In the world at large in general, like your perceived power,

355
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,080
Speaker 3: place of position, or status.

356
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,920
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, And if he believed in birth order having

357
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,120
Speaker 1: a significant influence on your personality, then that in turn

358
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,920
Speaker 1: would influence how powerful you may or may not feel.

359
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, Because the Adler, if how you perceived your own

360
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,720
Speaker 3: power not necessarily how powerful you were, but your own

361
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,200
Speaker 3: perception of power was the driving force of like how

362
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,440
Speaker 3: you interacted with the world your personality, birth order would

363
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,879
Speaker 3: make total sense because birth order, as everybody knows, is

364
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:47,080
Speaker 3: nothing but positions of superiority or inferiority. Yeah, And it's

365
00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 3: as simple as that. Because when you're born and you're

366
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,679
Speaker 3: a little kid, and you're born into a family with

367
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,680
Speaker 3: an older sibling, they are a couple of steps ahead

368
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 3: of you because they've already been through a bunch of

369
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 3: stuff Yeah, so they're inherently superior to you. They can

370
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,159
Speaker 3: also beat you up on a very basic level. They

371
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,119
Speaker 3: can twist your arm behind your back until it feels

372
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 3: like it's going to break. And Maria, how many times

373
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,679
Speaker 3: you say uncle, uncle? Uncle? They won't stop until they're satisfied.

374
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 1: Or protect you, like my big brother did. That's great

375
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,600
Speaker 1: from his friends that were jerks to me. Right, he

376
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 1: wouldn't stand for it.

377
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 3: No, a couple of.

378
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,720
Speaker 1: We went at it too, you know, we were brothers.

379
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,400
Speaker 1: But sure he never picked on me. No, you know why,

380
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 1: because you chuck and he's Scott.

381
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 3: Right.

382
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,840
Speaker 1: In the eighties is when, I mean, there were always

383
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,879
Speaker 1: studies starting since Adler and freud'stein, but in the nineteen

384
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 1: eighties is when it really blew up thanks to the

385
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:43,360
Speaker 1: Big Five in cocaine, the Big Five personality trait view

386
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 1: of things, and that's when things in the eighties, that's

387
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,439
Speaker 1: when everybody was just like eating the stuff up.

388
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, because so the Big Five personality inventory is we've

389
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,399
Speaker 3: talked about it before, but basically it is a self

390
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 3: reported measure that is actually valid. It actually works, like

391
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,639
Speaker 3: you can say this person is highly neurotic, or this

392
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:09,120
Speaker 3: person is extroverted or well three others that I can't

393
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,400
Speaker 3: bring to mind right now. But these things are also

394
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,200
Speaker 3: kind of broken into subcategories, like these are big umbrella

395
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 3: terms have more specific subcategories. But it's actually valid, Like

396
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 3: somebody who fills this survey out, it's going to be

397
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 3: an accurate assessment of their personality. So if you have

398
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,120
Speaker 3: somebody's personality, that's huge, Right, you can say, all right,

399
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 3: if this person's neurotic, they're highly neurotic. Let's see what

400
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 3: birth order they are. Oh, they're a middle child. Let's

401
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 3: compare them to other middle children who filled out this

402
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,160
Speaker 3: personality survey scored high on neurosis, And all of a sudden,

403
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,199
Speaker 3: we can show if you're a middle child, you're a

404
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 3: far likelier to be highly neurotic under the Big five

405
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 3: personality inventory. Then a firstborn is right, boom bam, you

406
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 3: just proved that birth order effects exist? Or did you?

407
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, They're like we can put people further into a

408
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 1: box and label them. Sure, or did you? Because that

409
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: is sort of the paradox that arrive that we arrive at,

410
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 1: which is you pointed to it a little bit earlier.

411
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 1: There are so many, so many influences that go into

412
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 1: what makes you you that it's hard to look at

413
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: birth order as a mere small part of that. Yeah,

414
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 1: so so like you can't account you can account for

415
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 1: some of these and studying it, right, you know, there's

416
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:30,919
Speaker 1: a lot of studies over the years and they do

417
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: their best, but you can't account for all of them.

418
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 3: Well, okay, so we'll go back to that example. So

419
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 3: you've you've just gone to your peers and said, look,

420
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 3: I have just proven that middle children are highly neurotic

421
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,640
Speaker 3: compared to other children in birth orders. Right, yeah, then

422
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 3: you're shaking your own fists around your your shoulders in triumph.

423
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 3: And they said, well, wait a minute, Wait a minute,

424
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 3: did you control for socioeconomic background? And you go no,

425
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 3: I didn't. Well wait did you control for race?

426
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 1: No?

427
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 3: Did you control for gender?

428
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 1: No?

429
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 3: And so all of a sudden you realize there's all

430
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 3: these different independent variables out tons in this case would

431
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 3: be confounding variables that might actually be the thing influencing it.

432
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 3: It might be the fact that they are women born

433
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 3: into families of a low ceoeconomic state that is driving neuroses.

434
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 3: That that's actually the thing that is driving it rather

435
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 3: than birth order. It has nothing to do with being

436
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 3: a middle child. It's just a fluke, a coincidence. And

437
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 3: like you said, there's so many confounding variables and so

438
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 3: many things that make our personalities who we are. That

439
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 3: some people who are like birth order effects do not exist.

440
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 3: Basically say that any birth order study that shows that

441
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,479
Speaker 3: they do exist has some confounding variable that's the actual

442
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 3: hidden thing that's driving it that you can't possibly control

443
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,919
Speaker 3: for everything to make a perfect, perfectly designed experiment for birthwork.

444
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like when you start to think about, like if

445
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 1: you were just to sit there and sort of jot

446
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: down things as non scientists, just regular schmos like us,

447
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 1: and just jot down a list of what other factors

448
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: might be at play, we could probably come up with

449
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 1: a list of one hundred things between.

450
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 3: Us let's start now.

451
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 1: But that would like if I was studying the stuff

452
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 1: and I started to make that list, I would just

453
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: walk away and go into another line of study. Sure,

454
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: I would be like, dude, I just you know where

455
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 1: your parents married, where they divorce, When did they get divorced?

456
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 3: Did you like hot dogs?

457
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: You live with mom or dad? How far apart did

458
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: they live? What could do? Were you suburban? Were you Urbana?

459
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: Where did you live in an excurb Did you grow

460
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 1: up in the woods? Did you start work at twelve?

461
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: For you like old timing, I started to work at twelve.

462
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: I guess I did too. I had a paper route. Yeah,

463
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 1: I was a bus boy.

464
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 3: Oh nice? Oh wait was that where the guy put

465
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 3: his foot into the Yeah, brothers do what a criminal?

466
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: I told you that's a title Max. Now that restaurant,

467
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 1: but not too long ago. Yeah, go JJ's barbecue title Max.

468
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: Now they're putting their foot on titles, just stomping on them.

469
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, but they got your money, your money, your real money.

470
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: They're never gonna sponsor us. Now. Another few things that

471
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: can confound these studies are things and and Ed helped

472
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 1: us put this research together, things like demographic shifts. So

473
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: he gave a great example of like the baby boom,

474
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: if there's a big population bulge that also coincides with

475
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: a lot of other stuff. And the example he uses

476
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: prevalence of cigarette smoking. There may be a false correlation

477
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: there between being a first born and smoking, whereas if

478
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: you were second born twelve years later. I guess that

479
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 1: would fall outside that range though of gap.

480
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,479
Speaker 3: Child maybe, but that's even more confounding. The point's still valid,

481
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 3: sure that, Like, there's just way more firstborns who smoke

482
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 3: than second borns. But that's because those spoking was more

483
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,479
Speaker 3: prevalent when there were a bunch of kids born who

484
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 3: were all of the same cohort and all firstborns. Right,

485
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 3: that's just one of the ways this thing can be confounded.

486
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, this one really speaks to me, which is

487
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 1: labeled as growth. When a birth order effect does appear,

488
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: it is strongest when they subject is with their siblings.

489
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you're a family or union, its back into

490
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 3: It is.

491
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: So funny how that happens. Yeah, I see myself do it.

492
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: Like good example, I turned forty eight a couple of

493
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: weeks ago. My family, my sister and her husband happened

494
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: to be in town. Didn't come for that, but we

495
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: were texting and I was like, hey, let's all you know,

496
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 1: this is great, let's all go out to dinner. She's like, oh,

497
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: I didn't want to. I just figured you wouldn't want

498
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 1: to spend your birthday with your friend. You'd want to

499
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: spend your birthday with your friends and not your family.

500
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: And I saw Michelle when she got in town, and

501
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 1: she said the same thing in person, and I was like, dude,

502
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: I'm forty eight. Yeah, it's like I'm not twenty two

503
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: year old chuck, I know some burnout like I used

504
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 1: to be. And she just sort of laughed. But that's

505
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 1: a perfect example of how like, no matter what happens

506
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: in my life, I will always be the baby. Yeah,

507
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: and she will probably feel like she has to look

508
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: out for me, which is a nice feeling. It is

509
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: I see Emily fall into patterns with her family. Well,

510
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: she is a She's an interesting case because she was

511
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: an only and then has a half brother and a

512
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: half sister. Her dad. Yeah, her dad went and had

513
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: a son with another woman, and then her mom got

514
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 1: married to her father in law, Steve, who already had

515
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: a daughter. So it's this sort of a weird mix.

516
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: But I just mean in general, not even with siblings,

517
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: you know, just in how their family dynamic is. She's

518
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: a different person when we go over there, all of us.

519
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 3: I think everybody is around their family so strange.

520
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: So this is when it sort of started me down

521
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: the path of like what is personality? Is a personality trait?

522
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: Is it? This? Just is it repeated behaviors? Is it

523
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: a set of behaviors, Like is that personality?

524
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 3: Are you asking me?

525
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I don't even know, Like what is personality?

526
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: We should do a show on that.

527
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: Oh, we totally should. But from what I understand, just

528
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 3: kind of briefly put it, personality is the kind of

529
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 3: predictable way that you'll react to the world. Right. Is

530
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 3: it easy for somebody to press your buttons? Are you

531
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 3: laid back? Are you like could somebody? However, if somebody

532
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 3: were presented with this is going terribly If somebody represented

533
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: with a like an event in life, Okay, you could say,

534
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 3: Josh would probably respond to like that, Yeah, that's a personality.

535
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: Right, But is that something inherent or is it birth

536
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: or order or no? Is it just a collection of

537
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: learned behavior?

538
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 3: I think it's a collection of learned and reinforced behaviors too.

539
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 3: If you're told you're the baby the family all the time,

540
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 3: you're gonna act like the baby of the family. You're

541
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 3: gonna act self centered, you're gonna act manipulative. It's reinforced.

542
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 3: If you're told you you can do anything, you can

543
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 3: go out and do anything. You can literally walk through

544
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 3: walls because someone told you to. They reinforce that behavior.

545
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 3: But I think that's what personality is. And this is

546
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 3: just me talking. I also believe in birth order effects,

547
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 3: by the way, but I think that that is it's

548
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 3: learned and reinforced, which means it can be unlearned. You

549
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 3: can learn to be different.

550
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. At that same birthday dinner, I picked up the

551
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: check for everyone, and there was a bit of a

552
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: not an argument letty's struggle. My mom and I were,

553
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: you know, kind of off to the side with the

554
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: people who work there doing the credit card battle, and

555
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: she wasn't super happy and I should have just let

556
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: her pay. But it's part of that thing, like I'm

557
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: the baby of the family, and I kind of just

558
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: finally told a sec Listen, Mom, it's like it's my

559
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: turn to pay nice. You know, I'm not the baby anymore.

560
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: Like quit writing me a check for one hundred dollars

561
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: on my birthday.

562
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 3: Do you do you catch this?

563
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: I mean I generally just put it in my kid's

564
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: bank account.

565
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 3: Oh that's a good thing, you know. Yeah, we don't

566
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 3: catch the ones.

567
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: Because I also don't want to take away the joy

568
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: that she gets from writing me that hundred dollars. Yes, sure,

569
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: that's not cool. No, it's like I don't need that

570
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: from her, but like that's what brings her joy.

571
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, giving you money, it's complicated. So let me teach

572
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: you a little trick. Oh okay, if you don't want

573
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 3: to get into that tussle, if you just wanted to

574
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 3: be done, sorry, it's too late. When you order, when

575
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 3: you hand the menu back to the server, just have

576
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 3: be holding your credit card with your thumb and give

577
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 3: them a look. It's universal, dude, They all know, and

578
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 3: they'll take it and be like, and you got to first.

579
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: Nobody else does that. They always wait and they pretend

580
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 3: to go to the bathroom, like after everybody's done. It

581
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 3: so obvious. You got to start before the food even comes,

582
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 3: before the drinks even come.

583
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: You know what I did? What when we got to

584
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,239
Speaker 1: the restaurant, the very first thing I did was go

585
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: up to the manager while everyone was being seated. I said, listen, dude,

586
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: my mom's going to try and pay, or one of

587
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: these other trumps in my family's going to try and pay.

588
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: He's like, I don't want any of them paying. It's

589
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: like twelve people. I picked the place. I picked a

590
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: nicer place. It's like I don't want to do that.

591
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: And I was like, so, just here's my credit card.

592
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,479
Speaker 1: Please make sure that the server there's no battle.

593
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 3: They didn't follow your orders.

594
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: No, because my mom she tried to jump me later

595
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: on the side and didn't realize I had already jumped her.

596
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: So it should have been done.

597
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: I know. But then when we went over there, he

598
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: was like, listen, man, your mom is over here now,

599
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: like she's the mom. We generally side with the parents

600
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: on this stuff.

601
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 3: What place was this?

602
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: It was just a restaurant.

603
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 3: I demand to know. I'm mad.

604
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: I my move should have just trumped all moves because

605
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: it was No. I agree, and that's what I basically said.

606
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,479
Speaker 1: And I was like, listen, man, I was like, there

607
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: are factors at play here that I don't want to

608
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: talk about. It's like, just please. And my mom got

609
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: a little mad, and then.

610
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 3: I was I blame this manager. I think you should

611
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 3: expose them. Well, I'm glad it all worked out in

612
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 3: the end.

613
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: Man, Should we take a break.

614
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 3: I thought we were right now.

615
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: No, all right, we'll be back right for this.

616
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 3: All right, we're back, Chuck. Yes, And like we said,

617
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 3: we showed science is kind of like we're not quite

618
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 3: sure about the birth order effect. That hasn't kept like

619
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 3: a whole cottage like field of psychology from continuing since

620
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: the eighties basically non stop. Like if you go look

621
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 3: at birth order effects, there's it's very rare you're going

622
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 3: to run into anything that says like this is all

623
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 3: b Yes. Most of it's like, yeah, this is true.

624
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 3: Everybody knows it. There have been some like dominent people

625
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 3: in favor of like like let's say, yes, there is

626
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 3: such thing as birth effects. And there was one guy

627
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 3: in particular who made a big splash in nineteen ninety

628
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 3: six with a book called Born to Rebel. Yeah sol Away, Yeah,

629
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 3: Frank Soloway, Frank J. Soloway, if you want to be

630
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 3: fancy about it. And he got a MacArthur Genius grant

631
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty four to kind of study this and

632
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 3: write about it, and he did. He wrote a book

633
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 3: called Born to Rebel. It was about birth order and

634
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 3: the whole premise of the book was he looked at

635
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 3: scientific revolutions throughout the ages. It's pretty interesting identified which

636
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 3: scientists were on which side of it, either in support

637
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 3: of this revolutionary thinking or opposed to it, meaning that

638
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 3: they were in favor of keeping the status quo, and

639
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 3: then determined what birth order they had. And he found

640
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 3: after this study, which is really it was a big study.

641
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, they did.

642
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 3: It was a pretty a lot of legwork and a

643
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 3: lot of research, he determined that first borns are much

644
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 3: more likely to support the status quo, whereas second borns

645
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 3: or later borns he calls them, are much more likely

646
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 3: to support revolutionary thinking.

647
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and just one example, as far as he used Darwinism,

648
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: he said, later borns between eighteen fifty nine and eighteen

649
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 1: seventy five were four point six times more likely than

650
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: firstborns to support Darwinism.

651
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 3: Thinking yeah, yeah, so yeah, And that was one of

652
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 3: many examples that I think there were one hundred and

653
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 3: twenty one historical events with sixty five hundred individuals either

654
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,959
Speaker 3: supporting or opposing them. So it was a big, big

655
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 3: work for sure.

656
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. And one of his I mean he put some

657
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: reasoning behind it too. He was like, if you're a

658
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: later born, you might have a hard time competing with

659
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: your older who might have a tighter bond with the parents. Maybe,

660
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: and so that sort of symbolically forces you as to

661
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: be almost an out within your own family. So you

662
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: may be more prone to join up with an outsider opinion.

663
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 3: Right to go, look outside of the family union and

664
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 3: all of the values and the ideas that it holds,

665
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 3: to make your own mark in order to get attention

666
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 3: or support or whatever from your parents. Whereas if you're

667
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 3: a first born, you just got the easiest thing to

668
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,240
Speaker 3: do is to just fall in line with your parents

669
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 3: and hence support the status quo. It makes sense, but

670
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 3: Born to Rebel was torn apart by some scientists. Sure

671
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 3: it's like this is just pure pop psychology tripe. I

672
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 3: think that's an unfair characterization of it. Like, the guy

673
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 3: worked for basically twenty something years on this stuff, and

674
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 3: it was a very robust study. One of the pitfalls

675
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 3: that he seemed to have run into, though, was he

676
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 3: was analyzing historical figures, which is really sticky stuff. Yeah,

677
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 3: you can't analyze people even from Afar, even if they're

678
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 3: content prairie let alone, they've been dead for a couple

679
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 3: hundred years. To base it on that is kind of

680
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 3: is kind of difficult and tricky, But I just want

681
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 3: to say he worked really hard on it.

682
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: Another part plucked from his research I thought was pretty

683
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: interesting was the idea that part of this less rebellious

684
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: nature of a firstborn might be due to the long

685
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: standing but now sort of antiquated practice of primogeniture, which is,

686
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: the firstborn gets the inheritance, so they're more likely, just

687
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: through thousands of years of this, more inclined to like

688
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: not ruffle the feathers of the parents, right.

689
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 3: And then the later borns who are like, I've got

690
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 3: basically zero chance of inheriting the family titles in a state,

691
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 3: I'll just go do my own thing. I don't have

692
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 3: to fall in line. That makes sense as well.

693
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: And the other interesting thing with that is another factor

694
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: was the removal of a child from a family. He's

695
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: found that a later born who was removed from the

696
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: family and reared by relative will end up behaving like

697
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 1: a typical firstborn. And again I'm assuming if that's under

698
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: the age of like five.

699
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 3: But I wonder so I'm wondering if that just is

700
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 3: supported by other research, or if all of the parenting

701
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 3: magazine articles that mention that whole, you know, the personality

702
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 3: is tailored, is really just citing that work. Because that's

703
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 3: one of the big problems with pop psychology in general

704
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 3: is it's self reinforcing. One person says one thing and

705
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 3: it gets picked up by a bunch of people and

706
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 3: they're all pointing to the same thing. But since so

707
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 3: many of them are pointing, there's so many of them

708
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 3: out there doing the pointing, right, it seems like it's

709
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 3: a very robust and like a widespread body of work,

710
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 3: when really it was just one study that said one

711
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 3: thing that everybody's citing.

712
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, like in his case, he likes to cite

713
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: this Norwegian study. It found a difference of two point

714
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: three IQ points between first and second and born children,

715
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: sample size of two hundred and forty one thousand subjects.

716
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 3: That's big.

717
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 1: It is big, But then you know ed sort of

718
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,399
Speaker 1: brings up a good point, like okay, maybe, but like

719
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 1: is a two point three first of all IQ tests

720
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: are problematic, they're bond for like a lot of reasons,

721
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: possibly bunk. But even if they're not, is a two

722
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: point three IQ point difference even meaningful? Yeah enough to

723
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: be like, well look two points.

724
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 3: So no, it's not meaningful in that like you know,

725
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 3: that doesn't that's not going to lead to any like

726
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 3: closed doors or open doors or anything. It's just such

727
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 3: a narrow difference but if that's like an average, and

728
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 3: it's it is found across you know, firstborns and later borns,

729
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 3: like like in a very large population like that it is,

730
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 3: it does make you wonder, like what would that come from?

731
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,439
Speaker 3: It does raise more questions. Yeah, you know what I mean. So, Yeah,

732
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 3: it's an insignificant difference as far as like actual intelligence goes,

733
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 3: but it does suggest that there's something weird going on

734
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 3: there that does have to do with birth order.

735
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: Well, I guess that brings us to this really interesting

736
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: thing that I had never heard of before. Oh, y,

737
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,919
Speaker 1: had you heard of this fraternal birth order effect? Which

738
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: is basically the idea and a lot of studies have

739
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: backed this up. Meta analysis of tons of studies have

740
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: backed this up. The idea is that if you have

741
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:25,760
Speaker 1: multiple boys in your family, each successive boy that's born

742
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: and this is it's just boys, has a higher chance

743
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: of being gay.

744
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 3: Right.

745
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: I didn't think And when I first saw that, I

746
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: was like, that can't be real, right, And then I

747
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,720
Speaker 1: did a lot more poking around. I was like, Wow,

748
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: it is real. The statistics sort of bear it out.

749
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 3: Yeah. If there's a big disagreement about whether actual just

750
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,919
Speaker 3: regular birth order effects exist. This one is much more

751
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 3: supported by the data. Yeah, this the fraternal birth order effect,

752
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 3: and so much so that there was a sexologist, which

753
00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 3: if that were my feel is study, I'd be like,

754
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 3: call me sexologists, Josh, please, I can't find his name

755
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 3: is Ray something he said, and I'm not sure what

756
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 3: he was basing this on, but he said that there

757
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 3: is an increase of thirty three percent in likelihood that

758
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 3: you will be gay with each additional older brother you have.

759
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 1: Now, so that means if you're born into a family

760
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: and you're the youngest of four brothers.

761
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 3: I did this math.

762
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Because I know these people family.

763
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 3: Zero percent chance, I guess that that you are going

764
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 3: to be hetero, that you were one hundred percent chance

765
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 3: going to be gay?

766
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: Right, Well, how many it could be one hundred and

767
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: sixty percent? Right, it just keeps going right, Yeah, I

768
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 1: think that can't be right.

769
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 3: Eventually you become so gay you pop out the other

770
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 3: side and you're straight because you have like ten brothers.

771
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 1: Well, I did see that meta analysis of multiple multiple

772
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: studies indicated that between fifteen and twenty nine percent of

773
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: gay males owe their sexual orientation to this effect.

774
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 3: Supposedly Okay, so so, and we should say there are

775
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 3: some studies that have not found this. There was a

776
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 3: big one that had it was like a survey of

777
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 3: British young men that surveyed like eleven thousand of them

778
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 3: or whatever and did not find this. But so many

779
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 3: studies have found it that science is like this, this

780
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 3: actually might be a thing, and we're not quite sure

781
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 3: what it is. And at first they explained it that

782
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 3: the more boys there are, the less social pressure there

783
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 3: are for you to be like hetero and and responsible

784
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 3: for carrying on the family line right right, right, like

785
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 3: after two three brothers who are gonna, you know, carry

786
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 3: on the family line, go go crazy, go do what

787
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 3: you want, And that that was the idea behind why

788
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 3: it became likelier that you would be gay if you

789
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 3: had more older brothers. There's a couple of things with that.

790
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 3: It kind of suggests that like being gay or not

791
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 3: as a choice, are being straight or not as a

792
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 3: choice rather than something biological, right whatever, That has kind

793
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 3: of gone out the window with another really surprising finding

794
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 3: that has to do with handedness that really undermines that

795
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 3: whole idea.

796
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is so just mind blowing and interesting.

797
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 1: So the increase in probability of a boy becoming gay

798
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: is only only if that boy is right handed. Right

799
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: handed yep, So if you're left handed. Among left handed men,

800
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: there was no statistical difference in the incidence of homosexuality,

801
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: even if you've got a thousand brothers.

802
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,280
Speaker 3: And the weird thing about that is that they've found

803
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 3: if you are taking birth order out of the equation,

804
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 3: if you are left handed, there is a slightly higher

805
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: incidence of being gay, just period, yes, for being left handed,

806
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 3: and that's with men and women apparently, So the idea

807
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 3: that not only does it not make you more likely

808
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 3: to be gay in as far as fraternal birth order

809
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 3: is concerned, it actually negates the effects of fraternal birth order.

810
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 3: It negates it. It shows that that social pressure from

811
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 3: brothers doesn't have anything to do with it, right, because

812
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 3: a right handed or a left handed kid is not

813
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 3: going to be under any more or less social pressure

814
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 3: from older brothers to be straight. Right, that makes zero

815
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 3: sense whatsoever. And that would also suggest it's handedness, that

816
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 3: it has something to do with genetics too.

817
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:30,800
Speaker 1: If you're ambidextriousity bisexual, I guess so, where's that study

818
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: that makes sense? So I did a little more digging

819
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: in this, but I don't understand it at all. But

820
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 1: more recently, as in just a couple of years ago,

821
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: they think they found an actual physiological biological explanation for that. Oh,

822
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: did you understand that.

823
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,720
Speaker 3: I don't know if they found it or if somebody

824
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 3: made it up, and everybody's.

825
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: Like, no, I read a bunch of papers that said that,

826
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: you know, they think this may be it, okay, but

827
00:43:59,000 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: I didn't get it.

828
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 3: So what they think is that a mom. When a

829
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 3: mom carries a boy, her body has a reaction to

830
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 3: the male male proteins, the stuff that makes him a

831
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 3: male creates an allergic reaction of sorts in the mom,

832
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 3: and the mom produces antibodies. The first time the mom's

833
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 3: bodies totally caught off guard, has basically no effects whatsoever

834
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 3: on the boy's development as a boy. As more and

835
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 3: more boys are born, and just state in that same

836
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 3: poor mom, the antibodies get better and better at recognizing

837
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 3: these proteins and can actually get to the point where

838
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 3: they affect the expression of these proteins, and so what

839
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 3: makes the boy straight from the basis of these proteins

840
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 3: is actually affected and they develop differently starting in the

841
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 3: womb because the mom has developed antibodies to basically maleness,

842
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 3: which is the most mind boggling, amazing idea I've ever heard.

843
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,919
Speaker 1: That summary was so much better than the scientific paper

844
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 1: summaries that I read today. Good John, thank you you

845
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: should do that.

846
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 3: Thank I do for a living. I just did.

847
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: Well, that's a good point. I thought this was interesting too.

848
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: I mean, we've kind of gone over most of these

849
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 1: birth order theories I think in general, but this one

850
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: I don't think we super touched on, and I think

851
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: it's really interesting. The confluence theory. So this is sort

852
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: of like resource solution of parents that we were talking about, Yeah,

853
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: like only so much emotional support or financial support to

854
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: go around, But this takes it down to the sibling level,

855
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,720
Speaker 1: and it's sort of basically like if you were first born,

856
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 1: you are then have a degraded emotional environment and intellectual

857
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: environment once you get a younger. Yeah. So it's like

858
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 1: playing tennis against better or worse competition. If you're the

859
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: better tennis player, you're not going to play as good

860
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: against a lesser tennis player. And they're saying that that

861
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 1: kind of happens with firstborns. Because they have to spend

862
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 1: time with this dumb kid, this dumb baby.

863
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 3: But the dumb baby gets a leg up exactly.

864
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,280
Speaker 1: That's when you play tennis against someone better than you. Eventually,

865
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: that's called the tutor effect. They surpassed that firstborn.

866
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 3: The student becomes the mass. That's right, exactly, and your

867
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 3: skin turns to alabaster.

868
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 1: Really interesting, says Sting said Sting. Well the Police, Oh okay,

869
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: Oh sure, I thought you were like a dream of

870
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: the Blue Turtle. Sting.

871
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,399
Speaker 3: No, I'm more of a nothing like the sun.

872
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: Yes, synchronicity, that's good too. I'm still mad at them

873
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: for that reunion tour.

874
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, they really phoned it in. You said, just

875
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 3: phoned it in? Hey, I saw for some so I

876
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 3: just thought of the Police, and then Stuart Copeland, which

877
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 3: made me think of Less Claypool. Remember he's in that

878
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 3: band with Less Claypool and Trey Anastasio.

879
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's called kill Me.

880
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 3: No, it's the three talented individuals. But then that made

881
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 3: me think of Less Claypool, who was in a documentary

882
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 3: I just saw on The Residents. Have you seen it?

883
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: No? The Residents were the mystery band, right, that were

884
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: the big ping pong heads.

885
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 3: Eyeballs, eyeballs right, still are a mystery band, still going

886
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 3: really Yeah, they're good, but it's good. It's like it's

887
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 3: an intellectual kind of like examination of their history and everything,

888
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 3: but it's really interesting. But Less Claypool's in it.

889
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 1: Do you think when Less Claypool, fish guy what's his name?

890
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 3: Tresso and Stuart Copeland.

891
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: And Stuart Copan you think when they got together to

892
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: form that band, all they did was just sort of

893
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: work out who's solo is next. Probably it's like, I

894
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 1: want to do the bass solo first, and then we

895
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 1: can go right into the guitar solo and then the

896
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: drum solo and then the song's over.

897
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 3: Hopefully the birth order of the three worked out so

898
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 3: that it all They were like, yes, this all makes

899
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 3: sense to me.

900
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: Man, there's nothing better than old videos of Stuart Copeland

901
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: pitching fits.

902
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 3: Oh Diddy, I always heard it was thing that was

903
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: a jerk to Stuart Copeland. Was Stuart Copeland's jerk?

904
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: Well, Stuart Copeland was a hot head and Steven was

905
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 1: a could poke his buttons. Oh yeah, it's pretty fun.

906
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: There's Stuart pretty Opland. No, don't feel bad for Stuart Copeman.

907
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 3: He might be. I think he might be the best

908
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 3: drummer I ever lived, everybody says Neil Pert. I don't know, man,

909
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 3: Stuart Copeland was pretty good.

910
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and like crazy, uh, like doing his own thing.

911
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 3: And he's from Macon. What yeah, Macon, Georgia, Macon, Georgia.

912
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't know that.

913
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 3: This concludes this episode of stuff you should know. If

914
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 3: you want know more about birth order, go talk to

915
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 3: your family. We don't care. Since I said that's time

916
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 3: for listener mail.

917
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 1: Did you watch the Motley Crew movie yet on Netflix?

918
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:44,879
Speaker 3: No? No, I didn't know. It's out.

919
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's out.

920
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 3: Okay. Is it good?

921
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:48,399
Speaker 1: Uh? No?

922
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 3: Is it based on that book?

923
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: It's not good, but it's great, you know what I mean?

924
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, it's based on the book. Okay,

925
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 1: but it's so I mean, it feels like one of

926
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: those VH one Are you literally making a note? It's

927
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,240
Speaker 1: sort of like when of those VH one movie music movies. Okay,

928
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: like the Jackson's one. It's it's it's.

929
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 3: Good, Okay, I'll check it out, all right, who plays

930
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 3: Vince Neil?

931
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 1: They're all, you know, the only one of the not

932
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 1: the only thing. There's a lot of distracting parts. But

933
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: the guy who plays Vince Neil and his hair looks

934
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:23,439
Speaker 1: a lot like Garth, looks not like Dana Carvey is Garth,

935
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: So it's kind of hard to fully go there. The

936
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: guy who played Tommy Lee is pretty good?

937
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 3: Was it Christian Navarro? No?

938
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: Did he wants? He can't play Tommy Lee? He could.

939
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: Tommy Lee's like six'.

940
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 3: Five that kid can play. Anybody, well, NO i. Agree all,

941
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 3: right it's time for listener, MAIL i, Said.

942
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: Chuck the bar is more mc mars. Guy, okay all,

943
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: right here we.

944
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 3: Go is that From is That? Dawkin, No Mick marsh's mot?

945
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: Legruw who is?

946
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 3: That he's a guitar?

947
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 1: Player oh the Old?

948
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 3: Creep, yeah, yeah SURE i know who you're talking. ABOUT

949
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 3: i GUESS i never knew his.

950
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,240
Speaker 1: Name by, creep he was a. Creep he was. Creepy,

951
00:49:58,400 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: sure that's WHAT i.

952
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 3: Mean still is all?

953
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: Right here we? Go this is From. Sam i'm just

954
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 1: gonna call this. Heartfelt it's always nice to hear. This,

955
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: hey guys probably could have sent this a million, times

956
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 1: but TONIGHT i really felt the need. To you were

957
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,720
Speaker 1: with me WHEN i transitioned from high school to. College

958
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: you were there the night my dad died two years,

959
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,280
Speaker 1: ago and now you're here As i'm in the process

960
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: of dealing with my girlfriend dumping me up to three.

961
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: Years you're always, there. Guys sure you hear this all the,

962
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: time BUT i want to tell you that some tough,

963
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 1: days on tough, days you really help keep me, sane

964
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: plain and.

965
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 3: Simple help keep me sane and playing and.

966
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: Simple not that we keep them playing and. SIMPLE i

967
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: read that.

968
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 3: Wrong it's like eight shoots and. Leaves that's.

969
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 1: RIGHT i have depression and anxiety and the podcast is

970
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: a huge help on nights like this when nothing seems

971
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:47,879
Speaker 1: to help or it's. COMFORTING i can tell if things

972
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 1: get really, bad if even the podcast doesn't. Help you

973
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: guys have also been like role models for. Me so

974
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: this is all just to say thank you so much. Much,

975
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: guys who knows how much darker some spots of my

976
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: life have been without? You could say much, more BUT

977
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 1: i THINK i got the message. Across that is From,

978
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: sam and he, says, PS i am a he hymn

979
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 1: AND i spank this email on the.

980
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 3: Bottom oh, good that's how we got.

981
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 1: Here that's.

982
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 3: Great nice. Work if you want to get in touch

983
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 3: with us Like sam. Did thank you very. Much, sam

984
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 3: by the, way that was very sweet of you to

985
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 3: tell us all that hope you're pulling.

986
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: Through, yeah hang in, there.

987
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 3: Man you can get in touch with us by going

988
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 3: to stuff Youshould know dot com and clicking on our social,

989
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 3: links and you can also send us an email Like sam.

990
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 3: Did don't forget to spank it on the bottom to

991
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 3: stuff podcasts at iHeartRadio dot.

992
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:45,959
Speaker 2: Com stuff You Should know is a production Of. iHeartRadio

993
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 2: for more podcasts my Heart, radio visit The iHeartRadio, App Apple,

994
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 2: podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite.

995
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:52,760
Speaker 3: Shows