Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: May thirty first, twenty twenty six, days after the death
Speaker 2: of George Floyd, A small group of people gather in
Speaker 2: a room somewhere in downtown Minneapolis.
Speaker 3: So, okay, so let's just we're going to try to
Speaker 3: run this way to typically run the years, right. I'm
Speaker 3: just going to identify everybody in the room here for
Speaker 3: the record. Okay.
Speaker 2: Two investigators from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, one
Speaker 2: FBI agent, two attorneys, and the first police officer to
Speaker 2: arrive at the scene at the corner of thirty eighth
Speaker 2: in Chicago that day, Thomas Lane. He's there to give
Speaker 2: a statement about what happened. If you've ever watched videos
Speaker 2: of the death of George Floyd, Lane is the tall
Speaker 2: one six' seven right next To Derek chauvin Restraining floyd's.
Speaker 3: LEGS i guess just tell us in your own. WORDS
Speaker 3: i did much details, possible is what happened from me in. Perspective, okay.
Speaker 1: We were dispensed To cornerie And partner's report at the Cup.
Speaker 4: FOODS i believe in the call notes it said that
Speaker 4: the suspect was still on scene in The. Mercedes we
Speaker 4: drove to the call we didn't act bitter like and
Speaker 4: sirens BECAUSE i believe the relatively. Polls and we got
Speaker 4: there and entered the, building entered Cup foods Of. Business
Speaker 4: there's a staff member there that, said you, know they're still.
Speaker 4: Here he, goes he was holding a bill and he,
Speaker 4: goes they gave me.
Speaker 1: This it's a big.
Speaker 4: Twenty he pointed across the street and they're, like he's
Speaker 4: it's he's in the car over, there you, know go
Speaker 4: get in before he drives. Off SO i, said you,
Speaker 4: know and he started walking, out AND i was, like you,
Speaker 4: know just head back and we'll take care of.
Speaker 2: It lane and his Partner Alexander king walk across the
Speaker 2: street to the Parked. Mercedes there are two men in
Speaker 2: the front. Seats lane knocks on the window with his.
Speaker 2: Flashlight the men turn and see the.
Speaker 4: Officers they both started kind of digging underneath the. Seat
Speaker 4: looked like they were reaching for, something AND i said
Speaker 4: that To. KING i, said they're moving around quite a.
Speaker 4: Bit AS i was coming across the, STREET i walked
Speaker 4: up to the driver's side of the. VEHICLE i knocked
Speaker 4: on the glass and the driver was sitting with his
Speaker 4: hand down below the, seat kind of leaning forward like,
Speaker 4: this AND i, said let me see your other, hand
Speaker 4: AND i directed, them let me see your other. Hand
Speaker 4: he didn't do, that and he was, just you, know,
Speaker 4: oh it's no devil or. Whatever and he cut his
Speaker 4: hand down there and he just glanced. Back SO i
Speaker 4: took my gun out and you, know AND i, said
Speaker 4: let me see your your other buck of, hand put
Speaker 4: your hand. Up gave commands to do. That i'm not
Speaker 4: sure how. MANY i think they gave a, few.
Speaker 1: AND i don't know.
Speaker 4: Why and he quickly went like, this like pulled his
Speaker 4: hand out real, fast AND i kind of like took
Speaker 4: a step, back AND i was, Like.
Speaker 1: Jesus and what are you.
Speaker 2: Doing my name Is Malcolm. Gladwell you're listening To Revisionist,
Speaker 2: history my podcast about things overlooked and. Misunderstood this episode
Speaker 2: is part two of our examination Of Derek chauvin's murder
Speaker 2: Of George. Floyd in this, EPISODE i want to look
Speaker 2: at the case from a different, perspective through the eyes
Speaker 2: of the first police officer to Approach George, Floyd Thomas,
Speaker 2: lane who at the time had been a fully fledged
Speaker 2: member of The Minneapolis Police department for only four. Days
Speaker 2: may twenty, fifth twenty twenty Was Memorial, day a Lovely
Speaker 2: minneapolis summer. Evening people are outside walking. About it's just
Speaker 2: after eight pm When lane and his partner pull up
Speaker 2: to The Cup foods on the corner of thirty eighth In.
Speaker 2: Chicago lane Pulls floyd out of his, car handcuffs, him
Speaker 2: sits him on his, sidewalk takes his, information then Walks
Speaker 2: floyd over to the squad car and puts him in
Speaker 2: the back. Seat Only floyd doesn't want to get in
Speaker 2: the back, seat So laine and his Partner king try
Speaker 2: to force him into. It then a second squad car pulls,
Speaker 2: Up Derek chauvin gets. Out floyd is struggling so much
Speaker 2: With lanne And king that he cuts his mouth badly
Speaker 2: enough That lane calls an. Ambulance lane Thinks floyd is on.
Speaker 2: Drugs he's acting, erratically and they found a glass pipe
Speaker 2: on him when they searched. Him they decided to keep
Speaker 2: him restrained so he can't move or hurt himself. Anymore
Speaker 2: they call ems a second time and upgrade their request
Speaker 2: To code, three the most urgent, level life threatening immediate
Speaker 2: response lights and. Sirens so, far all of this is
Speaker 2: nothing out of the.
Speaker 3: Ordinary so was there more to calling that paramedics than
Speaker 3: just checking his?
Speaker 4: MOUTH i think THAT i had mentioned, that you, know
Speaker 4: this could be possibly excited delirium or.
Speaker 2: Something, okay excited delirium is something That lane must have
Speaker 2: learned about at the police. ACADEMY a state of extreme,
Speaker 2: agitation aggression and. Distress it's not an officially recognized clinical. Diagnosis.
Speaker 4: Listen that was the other thing for stepping it, up
Speaker 4: because he might be in medical.
Speaker 3: Distress were you getting a sense that Mister foyd was
Speaker 3: having a medical? EMERGENCY i, mean obviously, hindsight but at the, TIME.
Speaker 1: I, YEAH i thought maybe that something was going. On
Speaker 1: but you thought he was passing.
Speaker 2: Out, Yeah chauvin puts his knee On floyd's. Neck lane
Speaker 2: turns To chauvin and shares his. Concern this man's not doing,
Speaker 2: well and.
Speaker 3: You articulated that, yeah, Okay and, well how was that
Speaker 3: suggestion received by your?
Speaker 1: Opponents they know, Him, yeah they, said just this is.
Speaker 4: Fine jovin, said this Is we're just gonna hold him
Speaker 4: here until you. Arrived SO i suggest, that you, know
Speaker 4: but they excited, delirium you, know maybe we should roll
Speaker 4: him on his, side.
Speaker 5: Just to.
Speaker 1: You, know if he's, LIKE i think it's SOMETHING i
Speaker 1: had previously.
Speaker 4: Learned that h pre just job if he'd roll on
Speaker 4: his side for recovery position or.
Speaker 2: Something in the video of The floyd, arrest you can
Speaker 2: Hear lane make his case To. Chauvin he, says you
Speaker 2: want him on his, side meaning should we roll him
Speaker 2: over so he can?
Speaker 1: BREATHE i just worry about that delum or.
Speaker 2: Whatever you want him on his. Side, no he's staying
Speaker 2: put where we got. Him, okay just worry about the
Speaker 2: excited delirium or. Whatever that's why we got the ambulance. Coming,
Speaker 2: OKAY i. SUPPOSE a minute, Later lane, SAYS i think
Speaker 2: he's passing, out Meaning floyd's in. Trouble let's get off.
Speaker 2: Him nothing. HAPPENS a minute after, That lane, says once,
Speaker 2: again want to roll him on his, side as, in
Speaker 2: he shouldn't be on his. Stomach lane is trying to
Speaker 2: do the right. Thing he understands the gravity of the.
Speaker 2: Situation but the crucial thing here is the Way lane
Speaker 2: sets out to Convince. Chauvin he doesn't make a declarative
Speaker 2: statement we should put him on his. Side he has
Speaker 2: to be on his. Side he asks a question he softens.
Speaker 2: It should we should we put him on his? Side
Speaker 2: he mentions excited. Delirium he's concerned About floyd's, safety but
Speaker 2: he undercuts that concern with words that soften his. ALARM
Speaker 2: i just worrorry about excited delirium or, whatever and, then,
Speaker 2: finally After chauvin shuts him, down, OKAY i suppose passive aggressive.
Speaker 2: Agreement sociologists call this mitigated. Speech one of the greatest
Speaker 2: causes of plane crashes for years was mitigated. Speech in a,
Speaker 2: cockpit the first officer would see something dangerous and try
Speaker 2: to let the captain, know but he would do it
Speaker 2: in such a mitigated way that the captain wouldn't take
Speaker 2: the new information. SERIOUSLY i wrote about one of those
Speaker 2: cases in my Book. Outliers it involved a nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: Two Air florida flight out Of, washington D. C it
Speaker 2: was a snowy, Day the plane had been in line
Speaker 2: for takeoff for an unusually long, time and the first
Speaker 2: officer thinks the plane has a dangerous amount of ice
Speaker 2: on its wings and should go back for de. Icing
Speaker 2: listen to how he tries to convince his superior, officer the, captain,
Speaker 2: look how the ice is just hanging on this back back.
Speaker 2: There see. That the captain says. Nothing the first officer tries,
Speaker 2: again see all those icicles on the back there and.
Speaker 2: Everything the captain ignores. Him the first officer tries a third. Time,
Speaker 2: boy this is a losing battle. Here trying to de
Speaker 2: ice those things gives you a false sense of. Security
Speaker 2: that's all that does. Nothing the plane is inching to
Speaker 2: the front of the. Line let's check those wingtops, again
Speaker 2: since we've been setting here a. While the first officer
Speaker 2: starts with a, hint look at that, ice then a,
Speaker 2: question see those, icicles then a, suggestion let's check those.
Speaker 2: Wingtops each, time he's removing one layer of, mitigation getting
Speaker 2: closer and closer to what is really on his, mind
Speaker 2: which is that he's. Terrified but only at the very
Speaker 2: end does he finally get. There it's just after, takeoff
Speaker 2: as the plane plunges into The. Potomac we're going, Down,
Speaker 2: larry and the captain, SAYS i know. It Thomas lane
Speaker 2: is in exactly the same position as that first officer
Speaker 2: on the. Plane both of them understand the gravity of
Speaker 2: the situation they're. In the plane has. Ice the man
Speaker 2: on the ground is in. Trouble but they have a
Speaker 2: superior who is, fixated who doesn't see what is, happening
Speaker 2: who is either incapable of processing any new information or
Speaker 2: doesn't want, To and neither of the subordinates feel they
Speaker 2: can just come out and say no because they're. Subordinates
Speaker 2: the state investigator Questioning lane about what happened That Memorial,
Speaker 2: day picked up on this very.
Speaker 3: Thing you obviously bring it, up so it's clearly you're
Speaker 3: something thinking about.
Speaker 1: What of ented you from just kind of taking charge
Speaker 1: of that and making the.
Speaker 4: CALL i was basically going Off Officer shoubin's experience and
Speaker 4: what he was saying like this is we're going to
Speaker 4: hold here and tell you.
Speaker 2: Enough, Right lane had been a police officer for four.
Speaker 2: Days then he reveals another crucial. Fact, listen, well.
Speaker 1: You heard in contact with him before the.
Speaker 2: State him meaning children, Again, yes.
Speaker 1: Okay so.
Speaker 4: He was one of the other training offers in the
Speaker 4: precentct THAT i worked, Then SO i had interaction With
Speaker 4: chin before to the, incident and, uh you, know he
Speaker 4: took me found how The Hamilton.
Speaker 2: Hall he had given me guidance on how to handle certain.
Speaker 2: Calls he says couldn't go, well.
Speaker 3: But somebody who used him as a resource during your
Speaker 3: ten day.
Speaker 1: Evaluation, yeah there.
Speaker 4: Was a few calls WHERE i was with another train,
Speaker 4: officer the think the advice on how the best dandel with.
Speaker 2: All Thomas lane's problem wasn't just that he had only
Speaker 2: been on the force for four, days that he was
Speaker 2: a rookie And chauvin was a nineteen year. Veteran it's
Speaker 2: That lane New. Chauvin he went To chauvin for. Advice
Speaker 2: how do you defy someone in that? Position not long,
Speaker 2: ago a Retired chicago police officer Named Jerry finnegan gave
Speaker 2: an interview to the Dog walk podcast hosted By eddie
Speaker 2: From Barstool.
Speaker 5: SPORTS i, mean, Honestly, EDDIE i LOVED i loved that.
Speaker 5: Job there wasn't a data goals. By i'm sixty one
Speaker 5: and there's there's not a data goals by. THAT i, Said,
Speaker 5: Fuck i'd like to be out, there you, know fucking
Speaker 5: j and these bad.
Speaker 2: Dudes finnigan is, fit close cropped. HAIR i don't think
Speaker 2: a cop movie has ever been made that didn't include
Speaker 2: someone who looks and sounds just Like Jerry.
Speaker 5: Finnegan the fucking adrenaline was just incredible and you. KNOW
Speaker 5: i used to, say it was like you would have
Speaker 5: ringside tickets to the greatest show On.
Speaker 2: Earth eddie And finnegan talked for almost an. Hour finnegan
Speaker 2: was promoting his new, Podcast the magnificently Titled Finnegan's, Take
Speaker 2: reminiscences from his years on the, force and at some,
Speaker 2: Point finnegan starts to speculate about why his path to
Speaker 2: promotion was so often blocked by his.
Speaker 5: BOSS i didn't know it at the, Time, eddie BUT
Speaker 5: i WAS i had the most complaints in the.
Speaker 6: City is that why he next to?
Speaker 7: You?
Speaker 5: Probably, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: Probably.
Speaker 2: Wait chicago police officers are ranked by their complaints the
Speaker 2: way pop music singles are ranked on The Billboard. Charts
Speaker 2: yes they. Are the rankings are compiled by an organization
Speaker 2: called The Citizens Police Data. Project their website consists of
Speaker 2: a searchable online database of two hundred and fifty thousand
Speaker 2: complaints lodged against members of THE cpd from nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: eight to twenty, eighteen and what you learn from looking
Speaker 2: at the list is that the distribution of problematic police
Speaker 2: officers within The Chicago Police department is not. Uniform those
Speaker 2: quarter of a million complaints are not evenly sprinkled across
Speaker 2: all the many thousands of officers in the. DATABASE a
Speaker 2: few cops have a lot of, complaints but the majority
Speaker 2: have almost. None if you made a graph out of
Speaker 2: the Whole Chicago Police, department there would be a, long
Speaker 2: low line stretching as far as the eye could, see
Speaker 2: hovering just above the horizontal axis until the very, end
Speaker 2: when the line would suddenly. Jump as the statisticians would,
Speaker 2: say the distribution of complaints has a fat. Tail and
Speaker 2: who stands at the very fattest part of the? Tale Jerry,
Speaker 2: finnigan recipient of a grand total of one hundred and
Speaker 2: seventy five.
Speaker 8: Complaints do you remember the war the day that you
Speaker 8: decide to go on the?
Speaker 1: Take so to? Speak?
Speaker 6: Yeah can you get into that?
Speaker 4: One?
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 5: Sure we we came into a house in the Eleventh,
Speaker 5: district chased a guy in there with a, gun and
Speaker 5: uh searching, around found some dope that was bagged, up
Speaker 5: kept searching and found a paper bag with. Money there
Speaker 5: were about eight of, us and took the money out
Speaker 5: of her and then split it. Up and THEN i don't,
Speaker 5: know was nervous about, it but after it was, OVER
Speaker 5: i was, thinking fucking it's dope. Money i'm not. Hurt
Speaker 5: i'm not taking it from you know your.
Speaker 2: Grandmother vinigan ended up doing ten years in prison for
Speaker 2: tax evasion and planning a murder for higher plot against
Speaker 2: a fellow. Officer he also cost the city over a
Speaker 2: million dollars in legal, settlements, which given his position As
Speaker 2: Alex luthor Of chicago play police, officers shouldn't be that
Speaker 2: much of a. Surprise problems with fat tales turn out
Speaker 2: to be. Everywhere here's another. One New York city has
Speaker 2: twenty five hundred automated cameras which in twenty twenty three
Speaker 2: handed out seven million speeding. Tickets but are those tickets
Speaker 2: evenly distributed across all the city's. Drivers, no there's a fat.
Speaker 2: Tale there were one hundred and eighty six drivers who
Speaker 2: got more than one hundred tickets in one. Ear that's
Speaker 2: an average of one ticket every three to four. Days super.
Speaker 2: Speeders most of us get a ticket and slow down next.
Speaker 2: Time we take the. Hint not the. Superspeeders on, average
Speaker 2: that group of one hundred and eighty six each had
Speaker 2: eleven thousand dollars in unpaid traffic. Fines in my last,
Speaker 2: Book revenge of the tipping. POINT i had a whole
Speaker 2: chapter ON. Covid you know, WHAT covid was fat. Tale
Speaker 2: most of, us when we were infected WITH, covid emitted
Speaker 2: such a small amount of virus that we didn't pose
Speaker 2: that much of a danger to. Others but there are
Speaker 2: a very small number of people, who for reasons we
Speaker 2: don't entirely, understand when they HAVE, covid produce a massive
Speaker 2: amount of virus super. Spreaders those are the ones who cause.
Speaker 2: OUTBREAKS i could go. On the lesson Of New york's
Speaker 2: super speeders And COVID's super spreaders is that before you
Speaker 2: figure out how to solve a, problem you have to ask.
Speaker 2: Yourself AM i dealing with a skinny tail distribution where
Speaker 2: everyone plays a roughly equal part in contributing to the,
Speaker 2: Issue or DO i have a fat tail distribution where
Speaker 2: my problem is a very small number of very rotten.
Speaker 2: Apples the world's problems are divided into fat tales and skinny,
Speaker 2: tales and policing is most definitely fat.
Speaker 9: TAIL i, mean even you Mentioned George. Floyd In, chicago
Speaker 9: we had The lawan MacDonald shooting where he was murdered sixteen.
Speaker 9: Times he was shot by the, cops and those cops
Speaker 9: were in the top six percent of the police. Force
Speaker 9: they've been involved in payouts from the city for misconduct
Speaker 9: and use of, force and tens of millions of dollars
Speaker 9: before the.
Speaker 2: Shooting That's Andrew, papachristos a criminologist At Northwestern. University if
Speaker 2: you're a regular, listener you've heard him on this podcast.
Speaker 2: Before he's talking about a police officer Named Jason Van,
Speaker 2: dyck another member of The Chicago Police DEPARTMENT Usu Force,
Speaker 2: peloton who shot a, Teenager lakwan, MacDonald sixteen times for
Speaker 2: no apparent.
Speaker 9: Reason so if you had gotten rid of this small
Speaker 9: percentage or done something different besides shuffle them, around not
Speaker 9: only would you have saved, lives you would have saved
Speaker 9: tens of millions of. Dollars you would have saved all
Speaker 9: of the trauma associated With lawan McDonald's, shooting the unrest
Speaker 9: in the, city how it layered into these.
Speaker 2: Things it's not just though that the officers at the
Speaker 2: very edge of the distribution do more bad things than anyone.
Speaker 2: Else it's, that and this is, crucial they lead, others
Speaker 2: people who wouldn't otherwise be in the fat tale to
Speaker 2: do bad things as.
Speaker 9: Well there are a bunch of studies ours included that
Speaker 9: show my bad behavior as a police officer is actually
Speaker 9: affected by the bad behavior of my, Partners so over,
Speaker 9: Time i'm going to look more like.
Speaker 2: You this is called network, spillover And Papa cristo's was
Speaker 2: part of a group of criminologists who used The Citizens
Speaker 2: Police Data project to figure out exactly how large this
Speaker 2: spillover effect. Is they looked at that mountain of data
Speaker 2: and grouped all of the officers in, networks drawing lines
Speaker 2: between the people who worked. Together they found that if
Speaker 2: there was no one in your network who received a
Speaker 2: use of force, complaint then your chance of getting a
Speaker 2: use of force complaint was. Minimal but if you had
Speaker 2: even a modest number of aggressive officers in your, circle
Speaker 2: your chances of being accused of violence went up by
Speaker 2: twenty six, percent which is. Massive and this is the
Speaker 2: problem With Derek. Chauvin he's in The Minneapolis Police Department's Fat.
Speaker 2: Tale he was the poster child for The Minneapolis Fat.
Speaker 2: Tale he had a mountain of complaints and because he's
Speaker 2: a training, officer a nineteen year, veteran the senior officer
Speaker 2: in nearly every crime scene he arrives, at he spills
Speaker 2: over into his. Network If chauvin had never shown up that,
Speaker 2: night if the second squad car never got, called if
Speaker 2: the whole incident was managed entirely By lane and his,
Speaker 2: Partner George floyd would have. Lived Thomas lane would have
Speaker 2: rolled him. Over there would have been no national eruption
Speaker 2: of pain and. Outrage you wouldn't even know the Name George.
Speaker 2: Floyd But chauvin shows. Up that's the core of the.
Speaker 2: Problem on the corner of thirty eighth In.
Speaker 7: CHICAGO i think anyone who sits through all of that,
Speaker 7: evidence you, know they hear a couple of times that
Speaker 7: Officer lane talks about potentially rolling him.
Speaker 2: Over That's Amanda, sertic one of THE us attorneys who Prosecuted.
Speaker 2: Lane she knows the evidence well and specifically the Role
Speaker 2: lane and his Partner Alexander king played that.
Speaker 7: DAY i think he's actually the one who announces When
Speaker 7: George floyd passes, out so though he's passing, out, yeah
Speaker 7: and then he's sitting right there next To king When
Speaker 7: king twice SAYS i can't find a, pulse and they
Speaker 7: both continue to restrain him for more than two. Minutes
Speaker 7: after they know he doesn't have a. PULSE i think
Speaker 7: that's the point WHERE i, mean it just becomes unacceptable
Speaker 7: not to. Intervene you, know it doesn't take any sort
Speaker 7: of training, whatsoever as the you, know the witness is
Speaker 7: on scene, demonstrated it doesn't take any training or even
Speaker 7: more than a few years on the earth to recognize
Speaker 7: that he needs medical. Assistance and you can't have someone
Speaker 7: mean and on his.
Speaker 2: Neck lane ended up spending two and a half years
Speaker 2: in federal prison for his part In floyd's. Death sertig
Speaker 2: and her colleagues felt that he bore at least some
Speaker 2: portion of the. BLAME i understand their, argument ALTHOUGH i
Speaker 2: have to SAY i do not agree with. IT a
Speaker 2: rookie cop on his fourth day on the force tries
Speaker 2: to write a wrong and fails because his superior officer
Speaker 2: is a bad. Apple can we really blame? Him haven't
Speaker 2: all of us in other situations done a version of
Speaker 2: the same act of mitigated? Speech are you sure we
Speaker 2: should do? That that's a little, much don't you? Think
Speaker 2: is that really? Safe but WHERE i hope we can
Speaker 2: all agree is on the broader lesson here one bad
Speaker 2: apple can infect the whole. Barrel the fat tail, matters
Speaker 2: which is why the first step in any attempt to
Speaker 2: fix the problem with a fat tail distribution is to
Speaker 2: get rid of the fat tail Target the super speeders
Speaker 2: contain the super. Spreaders get rid Of Jerry. Finnegan Stop
Speaker 2: Derek chauvin before he kills, someone not. Afterwards, right if
Speaker 2: only that's. Simple in the fevered days After floyd, died
Speaker 2: there were hundreds of people on the streets Of. Minneapolis
Speaker 2: peaceful protests turned into riots and. Lootings buildings were, burned
Speaker 2: hundreds of millions of dollars of damage was, done and
Speaker 2: one night the crowd came calling For Jacob, fry the
Speaker 2: mayor Of.
Speaker 8: Minneapolis there was a group of about two thousand people
Speaker 8: that came to my home and they demanded THAT i
Speaker 8: come out and talk to. Them AND i certainly was
Speaker 8: not in the habit of avoiding my position on the,
Speaker 8: topic and so my, wife who was seven months pregnant or,
Speaker 8: so Said, HEY i could get out there and just
Speaker 8: tell the.
Speaker 2: Truth fry was thirty nine at the, time he'd been
Speaker 2: elected mayor three years, earlier.
Speaker 8: AND i have security or. ANYTHING i walked out. There
Speaker 8: they called me up to the front and asked IF
Speaker 8: i would defund the. Police and at the, time this
Speaker 8: was a very new, phrase and SO i asked them
Speaker 8: what they meant by, it and they, say, well why
Speaker 8: don't you get.
Speaker 3: Rid of the.
Speaker 8: Police it was pretty, clear AND i said, no AND
Speaker 8: i got shamed and.
Speaker 2: Booed in the footage of the demonstration that played on
Speaker 2: the evening, news you can see the mayor walking stiffly
Speaker 2: through the, crowd wearing a mask that SAYS i can't.
Speaker 8: BREATHE i, mean it was Like game Of throne, style
Speaker 8: walking through a ton of people that were throwing things
Speaker 8: at me and spitting on. Me BUT i was CERTAIN
Speaker 8: i did the right. Thing there was no question in
Speaker 8: my mind that refusing to defund the police was the
Speaker 8: right thing to.
Speaker 2: Do fry was following the logic of the fat. Tail,
Speaker 2: yes there may have been frustration with law enforcement at,
Speaker 2: large but if the problem is a small number of bad,
Speaker 2: apples then what sense is there in upending the whole.
Speaker 2: Institution what you should be doing is cutting off the fat.
Speaker 2: Tail the crowds outside gented defund the, police but in,
Speaker 2: Response fry started making a different. Argument this is what
Speaker 2: the mayor. Said one of the first of the many
Speaker 2: press conferences he gave after the death Of George. Floyd
Speaker 2: unless we are willing to tackle the elephant in the,
Speaker 2: room which is the police, union there won't be a
Speaker 2: culture shift in the. Department could you talk a little
Speaker 2: bit more about that in the context Of. Minneapolis when
Speaker 2: you said, that what did you.
Speaker 8: Mean so here's basically what happened over several decades with
Speaker 8: this collective bargaining. Agreement the raises were limited in exchange
Speaker 8: for giving over to The Police federation quite a bit
Speaker 8: of managerial, authority and so the practice largely was let's
Speaker 8: keep people's property taxes down so that you don't have
Speaker 8: these magnificent increases in, wage and an exchange for, that
Speaker 8: the chief will hand over authorities that should so obviously
Speaker 8: be with the.
Speaker 2: Chief the shoe fry is talking about the Police federation
Speaker 2: or the union having more authority than it. Should has
Speaker 2: become a common complaint in many of the cities as.
Speaker 6: Well everyone thinks that a police chief should just get
Speaker 6: rid of bad.
Speaker 2: Cops That's Daniel. Oates he started his career in the
Speaker 2: nineteen eighties in THEN mipd and rose to be chief
Speaker 2: of four separate big city police. Departments After George floyd was,
Speaker 2: killed he wrote an op ed for The Washington. Post
Speaker 2: you could be forgiven if you missed. It it was
Speaker 2: a pretty technical analysis of law enforcement collective bargaining.
Speaker 6: Agreements WHAT i tried to explain in That post article
Speaker 6: is that we as a, democracy in all the societies
Speaker 6: in WHICH i, worked the four major cities in WHICH i,
Speaker 6: worked the voter is created inhibitors to the police chief
Speaker 6: simply firing someone who deserves to be.
Speaker 2: Fired at one point in his, Career oates was chief
Speaker 2: of police In, Aurora, colorado mid sized suburb Of. Denver
Speaker 2: he had six hundred and fifty officers in his. Department
Speaker 2: in his more than eight years as, chief there were
Speaker 2: sixteen he wanted to. Fire that was his fat. TAIL
Speaker 2: a very small number of his officers were proving to
Speaker 2: be a. Problem they were, violent they had drinking. Problems
Speaker 2: he caught them lying on their field, reports on and.
Speaker 2: On he negotiated complicated severance agreements with twelve of the.
Speaker 2: Sixteen they agreed to leave The aurora, pade but with
Speaker 2: a clean, record so it was possible for them to
Speaker 2: get a job somewhere. Else the remaining four he, fired
Speaker 2: but then in three of those, cases his decision was
Speaker 2: reversed on, appeal so of the sixteen bad apples who
Speaker 2: he thought were not worthy of a role in law,
Speaker 2: enforcement he succeeded in removing. One the problem is that
Speaker 2: many police union contracts are full of provisions that hamper
Speaker 2: internal investigations of. Wrongdoing in a normal criminal, investigation the
Speaker 2: police questioned any suspect as soon as, Possible but in
Speaker 2: investigations of allegations against, officers many unions delay that first
Speaker 2: round of questioning for, days if not, weeks long enough
Speaker 2: for stories to be straightened, out and before that first,
Speaker 2: interview in some, cities the police department has to hand
Speaker 2: over all of its evidence and witnesses in advance to
Speaker 2: the defendant's, attorney a practice that would be highly unusual
Speaker 2: in a standard criminal. Investigation Daniel oates says that he
Speaker 2: ran into this problem when he was called in to
Speaker 2: clean up The Miami Beach Police.
Speaker 6: Department, so as you can, imagine once you pour over
Speaker 6: all the evidence with your, attorney you understand what management
Speaker 6: has and what management can, prove and you can tailor
Speaker 6: your answers to questions so as to avoid the worst possible.
Speaker 6: Sanction effectively if. Necessary you, know if to save your,
Speaker 6: job you can lie because you know management can't disprove the.
Speaker 2: Law did they change that provision in your?
Speaker 1: Time?
Speaker 6: There, No, No i've still a stayed lawed for how?
Speaker 2: Much did? That in the end frustrate your ability to
Speaker 2: improve the quality of policing In Mayo?
Speaker 6: Beach it makes it extremely.
Speaker 2: CHALLENGING a small number of officers betray the standards of the,
Speaker 2: profession but unions protect that fat. Tale it's not the
Speaker 2: ninety five percent of, honest hardworking police officers who need
Speaker 2: an extra few weeks to get their stories, straight or
Speaker 2: who require advanced access to all the evidence and witnesses against.
Speaker 2: Them Jerry finnigan needs all those. Things Derek chauvin needs
Speaker 2: all those. Things, somehow a system intended to serve the
Speaker 2: interests of the many in the thin tail has ended
Speaker 2: up serving the interests of the crooked few in the fat.
Speaker 10: TAIL i can tell you this that nobody despises bad
Speaker 10: cops more than good.
Speaker 2: Cops That's kathleen. O'Toole she ran both The seattle And
Speaker 2: boston police.
Speaker 10: Departments WHEN i fired, people, INEVITABLY i received countless messages
Speaker 10: from other police officers who, said, Well, chief that should
Speaker 10: have happened ten years.
Speaker 2: Ago now, suppose even given all these, impediments a police
Speaker 2: chief does manage to terminate a problematic, officer the fight isn't.
Speaker 2: Over there is one final, impediment maybe the biggest of.
Speaker 2: All the officer has the right of. Appeal in many,
Speaker 2: cases the accused officer is allowed to restart the entire
Speaker 2: process from, scratch only this time not with an impartial,
Speaker 2: judge but with an arbitrator that the union.
Speaker 1: Plays a role in.
Speaker 2: Choosing with the, result, well you can. GUESS a law
Speaker 2: professor In chicago Named Stephen russian recently made a list
Speaker 2: of how often a fired police officer gets reinstated on
Speaker 2: appeal in most Big american. Cities Ready Miami dade thirty seven,
Speaker 2: Percent Oklahoma city forty, Percent phoenix forty, Percent washington d.
Speaker 2: C forty five, Percent philadelphia sixty two, Percent denver sixty seven,
Speaker 2: percent and, finally the grand prize, Winner San antonio seventy.
Speaker 2: Percent and where did this exact scenario play Out Minneapolis
Speaker 2: in the years leading up to the death Of George.
Speaker 8: Floyd there are more than a few instances when we
Speaker 8: have terminated someone it works its way up through that,
Speaker 8: arbitration and the arbitration then overturns the decision that we.
Speaker 8: Made how does that feel for a chief who's making tough.
Speaker 8: Calls you make the tough, call you spend a ton
Speaker 8: of attorney time litigating a, case and then he ultimately.
Speaker 8: Lose that person comes back on how does that help?
Speaker 8: Culture because that same person is going to talk to
Speaker 8: all the other officers, saying, HEY i did this. THING
Speaker 8: i got. Off this whole concept of a chief making
Speaker 8: a decision to terminate or discipline and having that decision
Speaker 8: overturned is detrimental to that chief's ability to run a
Speaker 8: police department and shift the. Culture they got to be
Speaker 8: able to set the.
Speaker 2: Tone Jacob fry had first hand evidence of what happens
Speaker 2: when you can't set the. Tone Derek, chauvin he didn't
Speaker 2: suddenly emerge as a bad apple on the night Of
Speaker 2: may twenty, fifth twenty. Twenty he'd been a bad apple
Speaker 2: for a long. Time you heard the tape in the
Speaker 2: last episode in twenty, seventeen he beat a kid over
Speaker 2: the head with a, flashlight opening a wound that required,
Speaker 2: stitches then put him in a Choke cald threw him
Speaker 2: on the ground and put his knee on his neck
Speaker 2: while the boy sobbed in, pain all for no. Reason
Speaker 2: that was his trademark. Move the other officers didn't say,
Speaker 2: Anything they just walked silently out of the. Room so
Speaker 2: the Bad apple stayed in the barrel for three more
Speaker 2: years until he comes Across George floyd on the corner
Speaker 2: of thirty eighth In chicago and puts his knee in
Speaker 2: his neck and just stays, there even After floyd has stopped,
Speaker 2: breathing And Thomas lane tries to get him to stop multiple,
Speaker 2: times but then he just gives up and sits there
Speaker 2: On floyd's dead, body just Like Derek. Schauman Revision's history
Speaker 2: is produced By Nina, Bird, Lawrence Lucy, sullivan And Ben Nadaph.
Speaker 2: Haffrey our editor Is Karen schakerji fact Checking Sam, russick
Speaker 2: mastering By Jake. Gorsky production support From Luke. Leman our
Speaker 2: executive producer Is Jacob. Smith special thanks To Sarah nix
Speaker 2: and L. Hafey credit Cone I'm Malcolm. Gabba get add
Speaker 2: free episodes Of Revision's history by subscribing To Pushkin. Plus
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