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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: May thirty first, twenty twenty six, days after the death

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Speaker 2: of George Floyd, A small group of people gather in

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Speaker 2: a room somewhere in downtown Minneapolis.

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Speaker 3: So, okay, so let's just we're going to try to

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Speaker 3: run this way to typically run the years, right. I'm

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Speaker 3: just going to identify everybody in the room here for

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Speaker 3: the record. Okay.

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Speaker 2: Two investigators from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, one

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Speaker 2: FBI agent, two attorneys, and the first police officer to

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Speaker 2: arrive at the scene at the corner of thirty eighth

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Speaker 2: in Chicago that day, Thomas Lane. He's there to give

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Speaker 2: a statement about what happened. If you've ever watched videos

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Speaker 2: of the death of George Floyd, Lane is the tall

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Speaker 2: one six' seven right next To Derek chauvin Restraining floyd's.

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Speaker 3: LEGS i guess just tell us in your own. WORDS

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Speaker 3: i did much details, possible is what happened from me in. Perspective, okay.

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Speaker 1: We were dispensed To cornerie And partner's report at the Cup.

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Speaker 4: FOODS i believe in the call notes it said that

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Speaker 4: the suspect was still on scene in The. Mercedes we

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Speaker 4: drove to the call we didn't act bitter like and

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Speaker 4: sirens BECAUSE i believe the relatively. Polls and we got

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Speaker 4: there and entered the, building entered Cup foods Of. Business

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Speaker 4: there's a staff member there that, said you, know they're still.

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Speaker 4: Here he, goes he was holding a bill and he,

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Speaker 4: goes they gave me.

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Speaker 1: This it's a big.

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Speaker 4: Twenty he pointed across the street and they're, like he's

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Speaker 4: it's he's in the car over, there you, know go

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Speaker 4: get in before he drives. Off SO i, said you,

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Speaker 4: know and he started walking, out AND i was, like you,

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Speaker 4: know just head back and we'll take care of.

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Speaker 2: It lane and his Partner Alexander king walk across the

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Speaker 2: street to the Parked. Mercedes there are two men in

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Speaker 2: the front. Seats lane knocks on the window with his.

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Speaker 2: Flashlight the men turn and see the.

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Speaker 4: Officers they both started kind of digging underneath the. Seat

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Speaker 4: looked like they were reaching for, something AND i said

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Speaker 4: that To. KING i, said they're moving around quite a.

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Speaker 4: Bit AS i was coming across the, STREET i walked

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Speaker 4: up to the driver's side of the. VEHICLE i knocked

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Speaker 4: on the glass and the driver was sitting with his

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Speaker 4: hand down below the, seat kind of leaning forward like,

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Speaker 4: this AND i, said let me see your other, hand

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Speaker 4: AND i directed, them let me see your other. Hand

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Speaker 4: he didn't do, that and he was, just you, know,

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Speaker 4: oh it's no devil or. Whatever and he cut his

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Speaker 4: hand down there and he just glanced. Back SO i

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Speaker 4: took my gun out and you, know AND i, said

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Speaker 4: let me see your your other buck of, hand put

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Speaker 4: your hand. Up gave commands to do. That i'm not

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Speaker 4: sure how. MANY i think they gave a, few.

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Speaker 1: AND i don't know.

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Speaker 4: Why and he quickly went like, this like pulled his

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Speaker 4: hand out real, fast AND i kind of like took

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Speaker 4: a step, back AND i was, Like.

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Speaker 1: Jesus and what are you.

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Speaker 2: Doing my name Is Malcolm. Gladwell you're listening To Revisionist,

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Speaker 2: history my podcast about things overlooked and. Misunderstood this episode

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Speaker 2: is part two of our examination Of Derek chauvin's murder

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Speaker 2: Of George. Floyd in this, EPISODE i want to look

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Speaker 2: at the case from a different, perspective through the eyes

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Speaker 2: of the first police officer to Approach George, Floyd Thomas,

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Speaker 2: lane who at the time had been a fully fledged

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Speaker 2: member of The Minneapolis Police department for only four. Days

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Speaker 2: may twenty, fifth twenty twenty Was Memorial, day a Lovely

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Speaker 2: minneapolis summer. Evening people are outside walking. About it's just

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Speaker 2: after eight pm When lane and his partner pull up

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Speaker 2: to The Cup foods on the corner of thirty eighth In.

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Speaker 2: Chicago lane Pulls floyd out of his, car handcuffs, him

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Speaker 2: sits him on his, sidewalk takes his, information then Walks

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Speaker 2: floyd over to the squad car and puts him in

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Speaker 2: the back. Seat Only floyd doesn't want to get in

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Speaker 2: the back, seat So laine and his Partner king try

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Speaker 2: to force him into. It then a second squad car pulls,

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Speaker 2: Up Derek chauvin gets. Out floyd is struggling so much

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Speaker 2: With lanne And king that he cuts his mouth badly

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Speaker 2: enough That lane calls an. Ambulance lane Thinks floyd is on.

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Speaker 2: Drugs he's acting, erratically and they found a glass pipe

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Speaker 2: on him when they searched. Him they decided to keep

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Speaker 2: him restrained so he can't move or hurt himself. Anymore

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Speaker 2: they call ems a second time and upgrade their request

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Speaker 2: To code, three the most urgent, level life threatening immediate

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Speaker 2: response lights and. Sirens so, far all of this is

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Speaker 2: nothing out of the.

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Speaker 3: Ordinary so was there more to calling that paramedics than

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Speaker 3: just checking his?

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Speaker 4: MOUTH i think THAT i had mentioned, that you, know

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Speaker 4: this could be possibly excited delirium or.

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Speaker 2: Something, okay excited delirium is something That lane must have

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Speaker 2: learned about at the police. ACADEMY a state of extreme,

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Speaker 2: agitation aggression and. Distress it's not an officially recognized clinical. Diagnosis.

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Speaker 4: Listen that was the other thing for stepping it, up

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Speaker 4: because he might be in medical.

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Speaker 3: Distress were you getting a sense that Mister foyd was

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Speaker 3: having a medical? EMERGENCY i, mean obviously, hindsight but at the, TIME.

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Speaker 1: I, YEAH i thought maybe that something was going. On

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Speaker 1: but you thought he was passing.

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Speaker 2: Out, Yeah chauvin puts his knee On floyd's. Neck lane

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Speaker 2: turns To chauvin and shares his. Concern this man's not doing,

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Speaker 2: well and.

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Speaker 3: You articulated that, yeah, Okay and, well how was that

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Speaker 3: suggestion received by your?

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Speaker 1: Opponents they know, Him, yeah they, said just this is.

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Speaker 4: Fine jovin, said this Is we're just gonna hold him

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Speaker 4: here until you. Arrived SO i suggest, that you, know

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Speaker 4: but they excited, delirium you, know maybe we should roll

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Speaker 4: him on his, side.

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Speaker 5: Just to.

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Speaker 1: You, know if he's, LIKE i think it's SOMETHING i

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Speaker 1: had previously.

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Speaker 4: Learned that h pre just job if he'd roll on

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Speaker 4: his side for recovery position or.

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Speaker 2: Something in the video of The floyd, arrest you can

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Speaker 2: Hear lane make his case To. Chauvin he, says you

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Speaker 2: want him on his, side meaning should we roll him

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Speaker 2: over so he can?

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Speaker 1: BREATHE i just worry about that delum or.

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Speaker 2: Whatever you want him on his. Side, no he's staying

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Speaker 2: put where we got. Him, okay just worry about the

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Speaker 2: excited delirium or. Whatever that's why we got the ambulance. Coming,

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Speaker 2: OKAY i. SUPPOSE a minute, Later lane, SAYS i think

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Speaker 2: he's passing, out Meaning floyd's in. Trouble let's get off.

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Speaker 2: Him nothing. HAPPENS a minute after, That lane, says once,

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Speaker 2: again want to roll him on his, side as, in

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Speaker 2: he shouldn't be on his. Stomach lane is trying to

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Speaker 2: do the right. Thing he understands the gravity of the.

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Speaker 2: Situation but the crucial thing here is the Way lane

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Speaker 2: sets out to Convince. Chauvin he doesn't make a declarative

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Speaker 2: statement we should put him on his. Side he has

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Speaker 2: to be on his. Side he asks a question he softens.

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Speaker 2: It should we should we put him on his? Side

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Speaker 2: he mentions excited. Delirium he's concerned About floyd's, safety but

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Speaker 2: he undercuts that concern with words that soften his. ALARM

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Speaker 2: i just worrorry about excited delirium or, whatever and, then,

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Speaker 2: finally After chauvin shuts him, down, OKAY i suppose passive aggressive.

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Speaker 2: Agreement sociologists call this mitigated. Speech one of the greatest

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Speaker 2: causes of plane crashes for years was mitigated. Speech in a,

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Speaker 2: cockpit the first officer would see something dangerous and try

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Speaker 2: to let the captain, know but he would do it

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Speaker 2: in such a mitigated way that the captain wouldn't take

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Speaker 2: the new information. SERIOUSLY i wrote about one of those

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Speaker 2: cases in my Book. Outliers it involved a nineteen eighty

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Speaker 2: Two Air florida flight out Of, washington D. C it

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Speaker 2: was a snowy, Day the plane had been in line

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Speaker 2: for takeoff for an unusually long, time and the first

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Speaker 2: officer thinks the plane has a dangerous amount of ice

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Speaker 2: on its wings and should go back for de. Icing

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Speaker 2: listen to how he tries to convince his superior, officer the, captain,

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Speaker 2: look how the ice is just hanging on this back back.

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Speaker 2: There see. That the captain says. Nothing the first officer tries,

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Speaker 2: again see all those icicles on the back there and.

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Speaker 2: Everything the captain ignores. Him the first officer tries a third. Time,

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Speaker 2: boy this is a losing battle. Here trying to de

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Speaker 2: ice those things gives you a false sense of. Security

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Speaker 2: that's all that does. Nothing the plane is inching to

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Speaker 2: the front of the. Line let's check those wingtops, again

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Speaker 2: since we've been setting here a. While the first officer

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Speaker 2: starts with a, hint look at that, ice then a,

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Speaker 2: question see those, icicles then a, suggestion let's check those.

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Speaker 2: Wingtops each, time he's removing one layer of, mitigation getting

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Speaker 2: closer and closer to what is really on his, mind

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Speaker 2: which is that he's. Terrified but only at the very

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Speaker 2: end does he finally get. There it's just after, takeoff

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Speaker 2: as the plane plunges into The. Potomac we're going, Down,

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Speaker 2: larry and the captain, SAYS i know. It Thomas lane

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Speaker 2: is in exactly the same position as that first officer

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Speaker 2: on the. Plane both of them understand the gravity of

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Speaker 2: the situation they're. In the plane has. Ice the man

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Speaker 2: on the ground is in. Trouble but they have a

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Speaker 2: superior who is, fixated who doesn't see what is, happening

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Speaker 2: who is either incapable of processing any new information or

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Speaker 2: doesn't want, To and neither of the subordinates feel they

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Speaker 2: can just come out and say no because they're. Subordinates

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Speaker 2: the state investigator Questioning lane about what happened That Memorial,

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Speaker 2: day picked up on this very.

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Speaker 3: Thing you obviously bring it, up so it's clearly you're

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Speaker 3: something thinking about.

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Speaker 1: What of ented you from just kind of taking charge

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Speaker 1: of that and making the.

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Speaker 4: CALL i was basically going Off Officer shoubin's experience and

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Speaker 4: what he was saying like this is we're going to

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Speaker 4: hold here and tell you.

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Speaker 2: Enough, Right lane had been a police officer for four.

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Speaker 2: Days then he reveals another crucial. Fact, listen, well.

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Speaker 1: You heard in contact with him before the.

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Speaker 2: State him meaning children, Again, yes.

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Speaker 1: Okay so.

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Speaker 4: He was one of the other training offers in the

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Speaker 4: precentct THAT i worked, Then SO i had interaction With

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Speaker 4: chin before to the, incident and, uh you, know he

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Speaker 4: took me found how The Hamilton.

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Speaker 2: Hall he had given me guidance on how to handle certain.

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Speaker 2: Calls he says couldn't go, well.

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Speaker 3: But somebody who used him as a resource during your

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Speaker 3: ten day.

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Speaker 1: Evaluation, yeah there.

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Speaker 4: Was a few calls WHERE i was with another train,

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Speaker 4: officer the think the advice on how the best dandel with.

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Speaker 2: All Thomas lane's problem wasn't just that he had only

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Speaker 2: been on the force for four, days that he was

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Speaker 2: a rookie And chauvin was a nineteen year. Veteran it's

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Speaker 2: That lane New. Chauvin he went To chauvin for. Advice

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Speaker 2: how do you defy someone in that? Position not long,

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Speaker 2: ago a Retired chicago police officer Named Jerry finnegan gave

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Speaker 2: an interview to the Dog walk podcast hosted By eddie

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Speaker 2: From Barstool.

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Speaker 5: SPORTS i, mean, Honestly, EDDIE i LOVED i loved that.

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Speaker 5: Job there wasn't a data goals. By i'm sixty one

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Speaker 5: and there's there's not a data goals by. THAT i, Said,

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Speaker 5: Fuck i'd like to be out, there you, know fucking

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Speaker 5: j and these bad.

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Speaker 2: Dudes finnigan is, fit close cropped. HAIR i don't think

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Speaker 2: a cop movie has ever been made that didn't include

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00:13:15,876 --> 00:13:18,356
Speaker 2: someone who looks and sounds just Like Jerry.

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Speaker 5: Finnegan the fucking adrenaline was just incredible and you. KNOW

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Speaker 5: i used to, say it was like you would have

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Speaker 5: ringside tickets to the greatest show On.

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Speaker 2: Earth eddie And finnegan talked for almost an. Hour finnegan

220
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Speaker 2: was promoting his new, Podcast the magnificently Titled Finnegan's, Take

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Speaker 2: reminiscences from his years on the, force and at some,

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Speaker 2: Point finnegan starts to speculate about why his path to

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Speaker 2: promotion was so often blocked by his.

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Speaker 5: BOSS i didn't know it at the, Time, eddie BUT

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Speaker 5: i WAS i had the most complaints in the.

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Speaker 6: City is that why he next to?

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Speaker 7: You?

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Speaker 5: Probably, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 6: Probably.

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Speaker 2: Wait chicago police officers are ranked by their complaints the

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Speaker 2: way pop music singles are ranked on The Billboard. Charts

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Speaker 2: yes they. Are the rankings are compiled by an organization

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Speaker 2: called The Citizens Police Data. Project their website consists of

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Speaker 2: a searchable online database of two hundred and fifty thousand

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Speaker 2: complaints lodged against members of THE cpd from nineteen eighty

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Speaker 2: eight to twenty, eighteen and what you learn from looking

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00:14:25,716 --> 00:14:28,996
Speaker 2: at the list is that the distribution of problematic police

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Speaker 2: officers within The Chicago Police department is not. Uniform those

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00:14:34,356 --> 00:14:37,996
Speaker 2: quarter of a million complaints are not evenly sprinkled across

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Speaker 2: all the many thousands of officers in the. DATABASE a

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Speaker 2: few cops have a lot of, complaints but the majority

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Speaker 2: have almost. None if you made a graph out of

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Speaker 2: the Whole Chicago Police, department there would be a, long

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Speaker 2: low line stretching as far as the eye could, see

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Speaker 2: hovering just above the horizontal axis until the very, end

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Speaker 2: when the line would suddenly. Jump as the statisticians would,

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Speaker 2: say the distribution of complaints has a fat. Tail and

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Speaker 2: who stands at the very fattest part of the? Tale Jerry,

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Speaker 2: finnigan recipient of a grand total of one hundred and

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Speaker 2: seventy five.

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Speaker 8: Complaints do you remember the war the day that you

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Speaker 8: decide to go on the?

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Speaker 1: Take so to? Speak?

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Speaker 6: Yeah can you get into that?

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Speaker 4: One?

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Speaker 1: Sure.

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Speaker 5: Sure we we came into a house in the Eleventh,

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Speaker 5: district chased a guy in there with a, gun and

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Speaker 5: uh searching, around found some dope that was bagged, up

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Speaker 5: kept searching and found a paper bag with. Money there

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Speaker 5: were about eight of, us and took the money out

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Speaker 5: of her and then split it. Up and THEN i don't,

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Speaker 5: know was nervous about, it but after it was, OVER

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Speaker 5: i was, thinking fucking it's dope. Money i'm not. Hurt

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Speaker 5: i'm not taking it from you know your.

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Speaker 2: Grandmother vinigan ended up doing ten years in prison for

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Speaker 2: tax evasion and planning a murder for higher plot against

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Speaker 2: a fellow. Officer he also cost the city over a

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Speaker 2: million dollars in legal, settlements, which given his position As

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Speaker 2: Alex luthor Of chicago play police, officers shouldn't be that

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Speaker 2: much of a. Surprise problems with fat tales turn out

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Speaker 2: to be. Everywhere here's another. One New York city has

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Speaker 2: twenty five hundred automated cameras which in twenty twenty three

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Speaker 2: handed out seven million speeding. Tickets but are those tickets

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Speaker 2: evenly distributed across all the city's. Drivers, no there's a fat.

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Speaker 2: Tale there were one hundred and eighty six drivers who

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Speaker 2: got more than one hundred tickets in one. Ear that's

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Speaker 2: an average of one ticket every three to four. Days super.

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Speaker 2: Speeders most of us get a ticket and slow down next.

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Speaker 2: Time we take the. Hint not the. Superspeeders on, average

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Speaker 2: that group of one hundred and eighty six each had

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Speaker 2: eleven thousand dollars in unpaid traffic. Fines in my last,

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Speaker 2: Book revenge of the tipping. POINT i had a whole

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Speaker 2: chapter ON. Covid you know, WHAT covid was fat. Tale

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Speaker 2: most of, us when we were infected WITH, covid emitted

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Speaker 2: such a small amount of virus that we didn't pose

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Speaker 2: that much of a danger to. Others but there are

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Speaker 2: a very small number of people, who for reasons we

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Speaker 2: don't entirely, understand when they HAVE, covid produce a massive

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Speaker 2: amount of virus super. Spreaders those are the ones who cause.

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Speaker 2: OUTBREAKS i could go. On the lesson Of New york's

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Speaker 2: super speeders And COVID's super spreaders is that before you

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Speaker 2: figure out how to solve a, problem you have to ask.

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Speaker 2: Yourself AM i dealing with a skinny tail distribution where

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00:17:44,836 --> 00:17:47,556
Speaker 2: everyone plays a roughly equal part in contributing to the,

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Speaker 2: Issue or DO i have a fat tail distribution where

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Speaker 2: my problem is a very small number of very rotten.

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Speaker 2: Apples the world's problems are divided into fat tales and skinny,

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Speaker 2: tales and policing is most definitely fat.

300
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Speaker 9: TAIL i, mean even you Mentioned George. Floyd In, chicago

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Speaker 9: we had The lawan MacDonald shooting where he was murdered sixteen.

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Speaker 9: Times he was shot by the, cops and those cops

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Speaker 9: were in the top six percent of the police. Force

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Speaker 9: they've been involved in payouts from the city for misconduct

305
00:18:24,636 --> 00:18:26,876
Speaker 9: and use of, force and tens of millions of dollars

306
00:18:27,196 --> 00:18:27,836
Speaker 9: before the.

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Speaker 2: Shooting That's Andrew, papachristos a criminologist At Northwestern. University if

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00:18:33,876 --> 00:18:36,436
Speaker 2: you're a regular, listener you've heard him on this podcast.

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Speaker 2: Before he's talking about a police officer Named Jason Van,

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Speaker 2: dyck another member of The Chicago Police DEPARTMENT Usu Force,

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Speaker 2: peloton who shot a, Teenager lakwan, MacDonald sixteen times for

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Speaker 2: no apparent.

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Speaker 9: Reason so if you had gotten rid of this small

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Speaker 9: percentage or done something different besides shuffle them, around not

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Speaker 9: only would you have saved, lives you would have saved

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00:18:59,596 --> 00:19:01,996
Speaker 9: tens of millions of. Dollars you would have saved all

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00:19:02,036 --> 00:19:05,276
Speaker 9: of the trauma associated With lawan McDonald's, shooting the unrest

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Speaker 9: in the, city how it layered into these.

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Speaker 2: Things it's not just though that the officers at the

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Speaker 2: very edge of the distribution do more bad things than anyone.

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Speaker 2: Else it's, that and this is, crucial they lead, others

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Speaker 2: people who wouldn't otherwise be in the fat tale to

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Speaker 2: do bad things as.

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Speaker 9: Well there are a bunch of studies ours included that

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Speaker 9: show my bad behavior as a police officer is actually

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Speaker 9: affected by the bad behavior of my, Partners so over,

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Speaker 9: Time i'm going to look more like.

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Speaker 2: You this is called network, spillover And Papa cristo's was

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Speaker 2: part of a group of criminologists who used The Citizens

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Speaker 2: Police Data project to figure out exactly how large this

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Speaker 2: spillover effect. Is they looked at that mountain of data

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Speaker 2: and grouped all of the officers in, networks drawing lines

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Speaker 2: between the people who worked. Together they found that if

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Speaker 2: there was no one in your network who received a

335
00:20:02,076 --> 00:20:04,956
Speaker 2: use of force, complaint then your chance of getting a

336
00:20:05,076 --> 00:20:08,636
Speaker 2: use of force complaint was. Minimal but if you had

337
00:20:08,796 --> 00:20:12,236
Speaker 2: even a modest number of aggressive officers in your, circle

338
00:20:12,556 --> 00:20:15,516
Speaker 2: your chances of being accused of violence went up by

339
00:20:16,236 --> 00:20:22,836
Speaker 2: twenty six, percent which is. Massive and this is the

340
00:20:22,836 --> 00:20:27,556
Speaker 2: problem With Derek. Chauvin he's in The Minneapolis Police Department's Fat.

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Speaker 2: Tale he was the poster child for The Minneapolis Fat.

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Speaker 2: Tale he had a mountain of complaints and because he's

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Speaker 2: a training, officer a nineteen year, veteran the senior officer

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Speaker 2: in nearly every crime scene he arrives, at he spills

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Speaker 2: over into his. Network If chauvin had never shown up that,

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Speaker 2: night if the second squad car never got, called if

347
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Speaker 2: the whole incident was managed entirely By lane and his,

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Speaker 2: Partner George floyd would have. Lived Thomas lane would have

349
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Speaker 2: rolled him. Over there would have been no national eruption

350
00:21:02,396 --> 00:21:05,356
Speaker 2: of pain and. Outrage you wouldn't even know the Name George.

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Speaker 2: Floyd But chauvin shows. Up that's the core of the.

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Speaker 2: Problem on the corner of thirty eighth In.

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Speaker 7: CHICAGO i think anyone who sits through all of that,

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00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:22,796
Speaker 7: evidence you, know they hear a couple of times that

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Speaker 7: Officer lane talks about potentially rolling him.

356
00:21:28,636 --> 00:21:33,036
Speaker 2: Over That's Amanda, sertic one of THE us attorneys who Prosecuted.

357
00:21:33,076 --> 00:21:36,756
Speaker 2: Lane she knows the evidence well and specifically the Role

358
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Speaker 2: lane and his Partner Alexander king played that.

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Speaker 7: DAY i think he's actually the one who announces When

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Speaker 7: George floyd passes, out so though he's passing, out, yeah

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Speaker 7: and then he's sitting right there next To king When

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00:21:50,396 --> 00:21:54,596
Speaker 7: king twice SAYS i can't find a, pulse and they

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00:21:54,636 --> 00:21:58,076
Speaker 7: both continue to restrain him for more than two. Minutes

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Speaker 7: after they know he doesn't have a. PULSE i think

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00:22:02,676 --> 00:22:07,916
Speaker 7: that's the point WHERE i, mean it just becomes unacceptable

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Speaker 7: not to. Intervene you, know it doesn't take any sort

367
00:22:11,436 --> 00:22:17,956
Speaker 7: of training, whatsoever as the you, know the witness is

368
00:22:17,956 --> 00:22:21,516
Speaker 7: on scene, demonstrated it doesn't take any training or even

369
00:22:21,596 --> 00:22:24,236
Speaker 7: more than a few years on the earth to recognize

370
00:22:24,316 --> 00:22:27,956
Speaker 7: that he needs medical. Assistance and you can't have someone

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Speaker 7: mean and on his.

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Speaker 2: Neck lane ended up spending two and a half years

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Speaker 2: in federal prison for his part In floyd's. Death sertig

374
00:22:36,476 --> 00:22:38,916
Speaker 2: and her colleagues felt that he bore at least some

375
00:22:39,076 --> 00:22:42,916
Speaker 2: portion of the. BLAME i understand their, argument ALTHOUGH i

376
00:22:42,956 --> 00:22:45,716
Speaker 2: have to SAY i do not agree with. IT a

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00:22:45,796 --> 00:22:49,076
Speaker 2: rookie cop on his fourth day on the force tries

378
00:22:49,116 --> 00:22:53,236
Speaker 2: to write a wrong and fails because his superior officer

379
00:22:53,916 --> 00:22:58,396
Speaker 2: is a bad. Apple can we really blame? Him haven't

380
00:22:58,476 --> 00:23:01,196
Speaker 2: all of us in other situations done a version of

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00:23:01,236 --> 00:23:04,676
Speaker 2: the same act of mitigated? Speech are you sure we

382
00:23:04,716 --> 00:23:07,356
Speaker 2: should do? That that's a little, much don't you? Think

383
00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:12,516
Speaker 2: is that really? Safe but WHERE i hope we can

384
00:23:12,556 --> 00:23:16,596
Speaker 2: all agree is on the broader lesson here one bad

385
00:23:16,636 --> 00:23:20,916
Speaker 2: apple can infect the whole. Barrel the fat tail, matters

386
00:23:21,436 --> 00:23:23,836
Speaker 2: which is why the first step in any attempt to

387
00:23:23,876 --> 00:23:26,836
Speaker 2: fix the problem with a fat tail distribution is to

388
00:23:26,876 --> 00:23:30,556
Speaker 2: get rid of the fat tail Target the super speeders

389
00:23:30,956 --> 00:23:34,996
Speaker 2: contain the super. Spreaders get rid Of Jerry. Finnegan Stop

390
00:23:35,116 --> 00:23:41,276
Speaker 2: Derek chauvin before he kills, someone not. Afterwards, right if

391
00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:56,156
Speaker 2: only that's. Simple in the fevered days After floyd, died

392
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Speaker 2: there were hundreds of people on the streets Of. Minneapolis

393
00:24:00,036 --> 00:24:04,676
Speaker 2: peaceful protests turned into riots and. Lootings buildings were, burned

394
00:24:05,116 --> 00:24:08,236
Speaker 2: hundreds of millions of dollars of damage was, done and

395
00:24:08,316 --> 00:24:12,476
Speaker 2: one night the crowd came calling For Jacob, fry the

396
00:24:12,556 --> 00:24:13,156
Speaker 2: mayor Of.

397
00:24:13,196 --> 00:24:21,596
Speaker 8: Minneapolis there was a group of about two thousand people

398
00:24:21,636 --> 00:24:26,476
Speaker 8: that came to my home and they demanded THAT i

399
00:24:26,596 --> 00:24:30,236
Speaker 8: come out and talk to. Them AND i certainly was

400
00:24:30,236 --> 00:24:34,116
Speaker 8: not in the habit of avoiding my position on the,

401
00:24:34,196 --> 00:24:38,636
Speaker 8: topic and so my, wife who was seven months pregnant or,

402
00:24:38,636 --> 00:24:40,596
Speaker 8: so Said, HEY i could get out there and just

403
00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:40,796
Speaker 8: tell the.

404
00:24:40,956 --> 00:24:44,676
Speaker 2: Truth fry was thirty nine at the, time he'd been

405
00:24:44,716 --> 00:24:47,116
Speaker 2: elected mayor three years, earlier.

406
00:24:47,116 --> 00:24:49,396
Speaker 8: AND i have security or. ANYTHING i walked out. There

407
00:24:50,156 --> 00:24:52,916
Speaker 8: they called me up to the front and asked IF

408
00:24:52,916 --> 00:24:54,956
Speaker 8: i would defund the. Police and at the, time this

409
00:24:55,076 --> 00:24:58,316
Speaker 8: was a very new, phrase and SO i asked them

410
00:24:58,316 --> 00:25:01,956
Speaker 8: what they meant by, it and they, say, well why

411
00:25:01,956 --> 00:25:02,556
Speaker 8: don't you get.

412
00:25:02,476 --> 00:25:02,716
Speaker 3: Rid of the.

413
00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:08,436
Speaker 8: Police it was pretty, clear AND i said, no AND

414
00:25:08,556 --> 00:25:10,316
Speaker 8: i got shamed and.

415
00:25:11,196 --> 00:25:19,436
Speaker 2: Booed in the footage of the demonstration that played on

416
00:25:19,476 --> 00:25:22,716
Speaker 2: the evening, news you can see the mayor walking stiffly

417
00:25:22,796 --> 00:25:26,036
Speaker 2: through the, crowd wearing a mask that SAYS i can't.

418
00:25:26,036 --> 00:25:29,076
Speaker 8: BREATHE i, mean it was Like game Of throne, style

419
00:25:29,236 --> 00:25:32,196
Speaker 8: walking through a ton of people that were throwing things

420
00:25:32,236 --> 00:25:34,156
Speaker 8: at me and spitting on. Me BUT i was CERTAIN

421
00:25:34,196 --> 00:25:36,556
Speaker 8: i did the right. Thing there was no question in

422
00:25:36,596 --> 00:25:40,716
Speaker 8: my mind that refusing to defund the police was the

423
00:25:40,796 --> 00:25:41,356
Speaker 8: right thing to.

424
00:25:41,396 --> 00:25:45,436
Speaker 2: Do fry was following the logic of the fat. Tail,

425
00:25:46,156 --> 00:25:48,796
Speaker 2: yes there may have been frustration with law enforcement at,

426
00:25:48,876 --> 00:25:52,276
Speaker 2: large but if the problem is a small number of bad,

427
00:25:52,276 --> 00:25:55,476
Speaker 2: apples then what sense is there in upending the whole.

428
00:25:55,516 --> 00:25:59,436
Speaker 2: Institution what you should be doing is cutting off the fat.

429
00:25:59,476 --> 00:26:04,156
Speaker 2: Tail the crowds outside gented defund the, police but in,

430
00:26:04,196 --> 00:26:08,756
Speaker 2: Response fry started making a different. Argument this is what

431
00:26:08,796 --> 00:26:10,916
Speaker 2: the mayor. Said one of the first of the many

432
00:26:10,956 --> 00:26:13,916
Speaker 2: press conferences he gave after the death Of George. Floyd

433
00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:17,276
Speaker 2: unless we are willing to tackle the elephant in the,

434
00:26:17,356 --> 00:26:20,556
Speaker 2: room which is the police, union there won't be a

435
00:26:20,556 --> 00:26:24,676
Speaker 2: culture shift in the. Department could you talk a little

436
00:26:24,716 --> 00:26:27,156
Speaker 2: bit more about that in the context Of. Minneapolis when

437
00:26:27,156 --> 00:26:28,076
Speaker 2: you said, that what did you.

438
00:26:28,156 --> 00:26:32,236
Speaker 8: Mean so here's basically what happened over several decades with

439
00:26:32,356 --> 00:26:41,036
Speaker 8: this collective bargaining. Agreement the raises were limited in exchange

440
00:26:41,076 --> 00:26:44,476
Speaker 8: for giving over to The Police federation quite a bit

441
00:26:44,516 --> 00:26:51,036
Speaker 8: of managerial, authority and so the practice largely was let's

442
00:26:51,076 --> 00:26:54,116
Speaker 8: keep people's property taxes down so that you don't have

443
00:26:54,156 --> 00:26:59,876
Speaker 8: these magnificent increases in, wage and an exchange for, that

444
00:27:01,636 --> 00:27:06,516
Speaker 8: the chief will hand over authorities that should so obviously

445
00:27:06,796 --> 00:27:07,316
Speaker 8: be with the.

446
00:27:07,396 --> 00:27:12,036
Speaker 2: Chief the shoe fry is talking about the Police federation

447
00:27:12,316 --> 00:27:15,316
Speaker 2: or the union having more authority than it. Should has

448
00:27:15,396 --> 00:27:18,196
Speaker 2: become a common complaint in many of the cities as.

449
00:27:18,236 --> 00:27:22,476
Speaker 6: Well everyone thinks that a police chief should just get

450
00:27:22,636 --> 00:27:23,236
Speaker 6: rid of bad.

451
00:27:23,276 --> 00:27:27,276
Speaker 2: Cops That's Daniel. Oates he started his career in the

452
00:27:27,356 --> 00:27:30,436
Speaker 2: nineteen eighties in THEN mipd and rose to be chief

453
00:27:30,516 --> 00:27:34,836
Speaker 2: of four separate big city police. Departments After George floyd was,

454
00:27:34,876 --> 00:27:37,356
Speaker 2: killed he wrote an op ed for The Washington. Post

455
00:27:37,996 --> 00:27:39,996
Speaker 2: you could be forgiven if you missed. It it was

456
00:27:40,036 --> 00:27:43,916
Speaker 2: a pretty technical analysis of law enforcement collective bargaining.

457
00:27:43,956 --> 00:27:47,676
Speaker 6: Agreements WHAT i tried to explain in That post article

458
00:27:47,876 --> 00:27:51,716
Speaker 6: is that we as a, democracy in all the societies

459
00:27:51,756 --> 00:27:53,796
Speaker 6: in WHICH i, worked the four major cities in WHICH i,

460
00:27:53,876 --> 00:27:59,796
Speaker 6: worked the voter is created inhibitors to the police chief

461
00:28:00,876 --> 00:28:02,796
Speaker 6: simply firing someone who deserves to be.

462
00:28:02,876 --> 00:28:06,556
Speaker 2: Fired at one point in his, Career oates was chief

463
00:28:06,596 --> 00:28:10,436
Speaker 2: of police In, Aurora, colorado mid sized suburb Of. Denver

464
00:28:11,236 --> 00:28:14,436
Speaker 2: he had six hundred and fifty officers in his. Department

465
00:28:15,116 --> 00:28:17,236
Speaker 2: in his more than eight years as, chief there were

466
00:28:17,276 --> 00:28:21,036
Speaker 2: sixteen he wanted to. Fire that was his fat. TAIL

467
00:28:21,756 --> 00:28:24,676
Speaker 2: a very small number of his officers were proving to

468
00:28:24,676 --> 00:28:27,996
Speaker 2: be a. Problem they were, violent they had drinking. Problems

469
00:28:28,476 --> 00:28:31,196
Speaker 2: he caught them lying on their field, reports on and.

470
00:28:31,236 --> 00:28:36,316
Speaker 2: On he negotiated complicated severance agreements with twelve of the.

471
00:28:36,356 --> 00:28:40,436
Speaker 2: Sixteen they agreed to leave The aurora, pade but with

472
00:28:40,476 --> 00:28:43,076
Speaker 2: a clean, record so it was possible for them to

473
00:28:43,076 --> 00:28:47,196
Speaker 2: get a job somewhere. Else the remaining four he, fired

474
00:28:47,396 --> 00:28:50,676
Speaker 2: but then in three of those, cases his decision was

475
00:28:50,716 --> 00:28:54,796
Speaker 2: reversed on, appeal so of the sixteen bad apples who

476
00:28:54,916 --> 00:28:57,196
Speaker 2: he thought were not worthy of a role in law,

477
00:28:57,276 --> 00:29:04,636
Speaker 2: enforcement he succeeded in removing. One the problem is that

478
00:29:04,676 --> 00:29:08,516
Speaker 2: many police union contracts are full of provisions that hamper

479
00:29:08,596 --> 00:29:13,476
Speaker 2: internal investigations of. Wrongdoing in a normal criminal, investigation the

480
00:29:13,516 --> 00:29:17,436
Speaker 2: police questioned any suspect as soon as, Possible but in

481
00:29:17,436 --> 00:29:22,236
Speaker 2: investigations of allegations against, officers many unions delay that first

482
00:29:22,276 --> 00:29:26,156
Speaker 2: round of questioning for, days if not, weeks long enough

483
00:29:26,236 --> 00:29:29,956
Speaker 2: for stories to be straightened, out and before that first,

484
00:29:30,036 --> 00:29:33,316
Speaker 2: interview in some, cities the police department has to hand

485
00:29:33,356 --> 00:29:37,316
Speaker 2: over all of its evidence and witnesses in advance to

486
00:29:37,396 --> 00:29:40,996
Speaker 2: the defendant's, attorney a practice that would be highly unusual

487
00:29:41,236 --> 00:29:45,836
Speaker 2: in a standard criminal. Investigation Daniel oates says that he

488
00:29:45,916 --> 00:29:48,156
Speaker 2: ran into this problem when he was called in to

489
00:29:48,196 --> 00:29:50,076
Speaker 2: clean up The Miami Beach Police.

490
00:29:50,116 --> 00:29:54,556
Speaker 6: Department, so as you can, imagine once you pour over

491
00:29:54,596 --> 00:29:59,436
Speaker 6: all the evidence with your, attorney you understand what management

492
00:29:59,476 --> 00:30:02,556
Speaker 6: has and what management can, prove and you can tailor

493
00:30:02,596 --> 00:30:08,116
Speaker 6: your answers to questions so as to avoid the worst possible.

494
00:30:08,156 --> 00:30:13,676
Speaker 6: Sanction effectively if. Necessary you, know if to save your,

495
00:30:13,756 --> 00:30:17,836
Speaker 6: job you can lie because you know management can't disprove the.

496
00:30:17,916 --> 00:30:20,436
Speaker 2: Law did they change that provision in your?

497
00:30:20,436 --> 00:30:20,636
Speaker 1: Time?

498
00:30:20,676 --> 00:30:23,956
Speaker 6: There, No, No i've still a stayed lawed for how?

499
00:30:23,996 --> 00:30:26,396
Speaker 2: Much did? That in the end frustrate your ability to

500
00:30:27,076 --> 00:30:29,116
Speaker 2: improve the quality of policing In Mayo?

501
00:30:29,196 --> 00:30:31,276
Speaker 6: Beach it makes it extremely.

502
00:30:31,356 --> 00:30:37,196
Speaker 2: CHALLENGING a small number of officers betray the standards of the,

503
00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:42,316
Speaker 2: profession but unions protect that fat. Tale it's not the

504
00:30:42,516 --> 00:30:46,596
Speaker 2: ninety five percent of, honest hardworking police officers who need

505
00:30:46,676 --> 00:30:49,396
Speaker 2: an extra few weeks to get their stories, straight or

506
00:30:49,396 --> 00:30:53,476
Speaker 2: who require advanced access to all the evidence and witnesses against.

507
00:30:53,476 --> 00:30:58,956
Speaker 2: Them Jerry finnigan needs all those. Things Derek chauvin needs

508
00:30:58,996 --> 00:31:02,356
Speaker 2: all those. Things, somehow a system intended to serve the

509
00:31:02,396 --> 00:31:05,116
Speaker 2: interests of the many in the thin tail has ended

510
00:31:05,196 --> 00:31:08,396
Speaker 2: up serving the interests of the crooked few in the fat.

511
00:31:08,396 --> 00:31:12,556
Speaker 10: TAIL i can tell you this that nobody despises bad

512
00:31:12,636 --> 00:31:13,836
Speaker 10: cops more than good.

513
00:31:13,876 --> 00:31:17,756
Speaker 2: Cops That's kathleen. O'Toole she ran both The seattle And

514
00:31:17,836 --> 00:31:18,676
Speaker 2: boston police.

515
00:31:18,676 --> 00:31:24,076
Speaker 10: Departments WHEN i fired, people, INEVITABLY i received countless messages

516
00:31:24,156 --> 00:31:27,156
Speaker 10: from other police officers who, said, Well, chief that should

517
00:31:27,156 --> 00:31:27,996
Speaker 10: have happened ten years.

518
00:31:28,036 --> 00:31:33,916
Speaker 2: Ago now, suppose even given all these, impediments a police

519
00:31:33,956 --> 00:31:38,196
Speaker 2: chief does manage to terminate a problematic, officer the fight isn't.

520
00:31:38,236 --> 00:31:42,356
Speaker 2: Over there is one final, impediment maybe the biggest of.

521
00:31:42,356 --> 00:31:46,876
Speaker 2: All the officer has the right of. Appeal in many,

522
00:31:46,916 --> 00:31:50,236
Speaker 2: cases the accused officer is allowed to restart the entire

523
00:31:50,276 --> 00:31:54,596
Speaker 2: process from, scratch only this time not with an impartial,

524
00:31:54,676 --> 00:31:57,636
Speaker 2: judge but with an arbitrator that the union.

525
00:31:57,356 --> 00:31:57,996
Speaker 1: Plays a role in.

526
00:31:58,076 --> 00:32:03,236
Speaker 2: Choosing with the, result, well you can. GUESS a law

527
00:32:03,236 --> 00:32:06,876
Speaker 2: professor In chicago Named Stephen russian recently made a list

528
00:32:07,116 --> 00:32:10,916
Speaker 2: of how often a fired police officer gets reinstated on

529
00:32:11,036 --> 00:32:17,396
Speaker 2: appeal in most Big american. Cities Ready Miami dade thirty seven,

530
00:32:17,476 --> 00:32:23,876
Speaker 2: Percent Oklahoma city forty, Percent phoenix forty, Percent washington d.

531
00:32:24,036 --> 00:32:29,796
Speaker 2: C forty five, Percent philadelphia sixty two, Percent denver sixty seven,

532
00:32:29,876 --> 00:32:34,356
Speaker 2: percent and, finally the grand prize, Winner San antonio seventy.

533
00:32:34,396 --> 00:32:40,036
Speaker 2: Percent and where did this exact scenario play Out Minneapolis

534
00:32:40,556 --> 00:32:43,476
Speaker 2: in the years leading up to the death Of George.

535
00:32:43,476 --> 00:32:49,116
Speaker 8: Floyd there are more than a few instances when we

536
00:32:49,156 --> 00:32:51,316
Speaker 8: have terminated someone it works its way up through that,

537
00:32:51,436 --> 00:32:55,036
Speaker 8: arbitration and the arbitration then overturns the decision that we.

538
00:32:55,116 --> 00:32:58,476
Speaker 8: Made how does that feel for a chief who's making tough.

539
00:32:58,516 --> 00:33:03,276
Speaker 8: Calls you make the tough, call you spend a ton

540
00:33:03,316 --> 00:33:06,636
Speaker 8: of attorney time litigating a, case and then he ultimately.

541
00:33:06,676 --> 00:33:10,196
Speaker 8: Lose that person comes back on how does that help?

542
00:33:10,236 --> 00:33:12,236
Speaker 8: Culture because that same person is going to talk to

543
00:33:12,276 --> 00:33:14,036
Speaker 8: all the other officers, saying, HEY i did this. THING

544
00:33:14,076 --> 00:33:18,476
Speaker 8: i got. Off this whole concept of a chief making

545
00:33:18,596 --> 00:33:21,556
Speaker 8: a decision to terminate or discipline and having that decision

546
00:33:21,836 --> 00:33:25,756
Speaker 8: overturned is detrimental to that chief's ability to run a

547
00:33:25,756 --> 00:33:28,116
Speaker 8: police department and shift the. Culture they got to be

548
00:33:28,156 --> 00:33:28,756
Speaker 8: able to set the.

549
00:33:28,796 --> 00:33:33,916
Speaker 2: Tone Jacob fry had first hand evidence of what happens

550
00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:37,676
Speaker 2: when you can't set the. Tone Derek, chauvin he didn't

551
00:33:37,716 --> 00:33:40,036
Speaker 2: suddenly emerge as a bad apple on the night Of

552
00:33:40,076 --> 00:33:42,796
Speaker 2: may twenty, fifth twenty. Twenty he'd been a bad apple

553
00:33:42,876 --> 00:33:45,596
Speaker 2: for a long. Time you heard the tape in the

554
00:33:45,676 --> 00:33:49,156
Speaker 2: last episode in twenty, seventeen he beat a kid over

555
00:33:49,156 --> 00:33:51,956
Speaker 2: the head with a, flashlight opening a wound that required,

556
00:33:51,996 --> 00:33:54,756
Speaker 2: stitches then put him in a Choke cald threw him

557
00:33:54,796 --> 00:33:56,956
Speaker 2: on the ground and put his knee on his neck

558
00:33:57,356 --> 00:34:00,636
Speaker 2: while the boy sobbed in, pain all for no. Reason

559
00:34:01,396 --> 00:34:05,276
Speaker 2: that was his trademark. Move the other officers didn't say,

560
00:34:05,276 --> 00:34:09,356
Speaker 2: Anything they just walked silently out of the. Room so

561
00:34:09,476 --> 00:34:12,676
Speaker 2: the Bad apple stayed in the barrel for three more

562
00:34:12,716 --> 00:34:16,276
Speaker 2: years until he comes Across George floyd on the corner

563
00:34:16,356 --> 00:34:19,196
Speaker 2: of thirty eighth In chicago and puts his knee in

564
00:34:19,236 --> 00:34:23,036
Speaker 2: his neck and just stays, there even After floyd has stopped,

565
00:34:23,036 --> 00:34:28,556
Speaker 2: breathing And Thomas lane tries to get him to stop multiple,

566
00:34:28,596 --> 00:34:32,636
Speaker 2: times but then he just gives up and sits there

567
00:34:32,956 --> 00:34:53,436
Speaker 2: On floyd's dead, body just Like Derek. Schauman Revision's history

568
00:34:53,556 --> 00:34:57,276
Speaker 2: is produced By Nina, Bird, Lawrence Lucy, sullivan And Ben Nadaph.

569
00:34:57,316 --> 00:35:02,556
Speaker 2: Haffrey our editor Is Karen schakerji fact Checking Sam, russick

570
00:35:03,156 --> 00:35:07,396
Speaker 2: mastering By Jake. Gorsky production support From Luke. Leman our

571
00:35:07,436 --> 00:35:10,836
Speaker 2: executive producer Is Jacob. Smith special thanks To Sarah nix

572
00:35:11,076 --> 00:35:22,276
Speaker 2: and L. Hafey credit Cone I'm Malcolm. Gabba get add

573
00:35:22,316 --> 00:35:25,716
Speaker 2: free episodes Of Revision's history by subscribing To Pushkin. Plus

574
00:35:26,156 --> 00:35:29,196
Speaker 2: sign up on the show page On Apple podcasts or

575
00:35:29,236 --> 00:35:34,036
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576
00:35:34,116 --> 00:35:39,316
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