WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Bermeja Island 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.160 Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by a fish 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.400 wearing a tupe. Instead, it's supported by the generous donations 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:11.880 of our listeners on Patreon. Visit patreon dot com slash 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:19.520 thinking sideways to learn more and thanks Thinking Sideways. I 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:29.880 don't understand you never know stories of things we simply 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:35.600 don't know the answer too. Hey, guys, welcome to another 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:40.320 episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. I am Devin, joined 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:45.280 as usual by Joe and Steve, and not to be 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.480 labor point, but this is going to be the second 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:52.159 episode in what we're calling our summer series. Um. Briefly, 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.720 if you have been listening to the show for a while, 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.240 you know that we put have put out an episode 0:00:57.320 --> 0:00:59.760 at least once a week every week for three years, 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:04.880 and uh we're tired. Uh So instead of, you know, 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.160 instead of doing like a summer break like some podcasts do, 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:12.200 we're just doing a series of shorts and that will 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:16.080 allow us to take some much needed recuperation time. But also, 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:18.520 you know, we can start working on some of these 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.640 bigger shows that we've been trying to work on that 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:25.399 we're apparently promising to you guys. At the trade off 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:29.000 for this doing reruns Yeah, mostly reruns. If you want to, 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.840 if you want to listen to a Thinking Sideway Sideways 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.399 podcast rerun, just go into a catalog and click on 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:38.000 any on any episode and it's already it's perfect. Yeah. Yeah, So, 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.120 just as a heads up, these episodes are going to 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:43.160 be shorter. There are summer series. But thanks for your understanding. 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.559 Let's do this thing great. Today we're going to talk 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:54.960 about the Bermeha Island. And this was not a suggestion. What. Yeah, 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:57.560 I found this myself. You went, You went on the 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:04.000 intertubes and found a mystery on your own. Did Yeah. 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.639 I can't believe you did that. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry, 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.519 but this is creepy. I don't know if creepy is 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:15.480 the word. An entire island disappears. It's been interesting mystery, 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:17.280 to be sure. Yeah. And I'm just going to go 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:19.200 ahead and say right now that a lot of the 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.120 research that I relied on is not in English, so 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:27.200 there may be a little bit of weird translation things happening. Um, 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:31.440 so I apologize in advance if that happens. Ready. So 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:36.120 Bermeja Island was first mentioned in fifteen thirty nine in 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:39.560 the Yucatan and adjacent Islands. General is Lario of All 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:43.600 Islands in the World by Alonso de Santa Cruz of Madrid, Spain. 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.320 He was a cartographer. This publication is generally called the 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.640 General Atlas of all the Islands in the World. Yes, really, 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:55.959 I think that's the ambitious, ambitious you know, in the hundreds. Yeah, 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:00.440 that's crazy, all of the islands of all of the world. 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:04.679 But there you go. This island is or was depending 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:11.560 in the Gulf of Mexico, just off the Yucatan Peninsula, right, Okay, 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:19.920 silently sitting there. You're not reacting, though I need reactions. Yes, yes, 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:27.400 in Mexico. So in the Mariners Mirror by Alonso de Chaves, 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.559 which is a different Alonso, who's also a Spanish cartographer. 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.920 Apparently that was like a super super fun name for 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:40.120 cartographers in Spain. Anyway, he described this island as and 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:42.520 this is a weird translation. So I'm gonna like try 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:47.720 and as I go from the tip of Cape Baron Redondo, 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:50.560 you go almost all the way to the west coast 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:52.840 for all all, almost all the way the west, about 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.560 seventy miles up and then there's this little arch to 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:01.640 the north in this place where the y'all, thank you, 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:08.000 and the island of the Arniss and then also Bermeha, 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.280 so they're like a cluster of islands. It is. It's weird, 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:16.839 but it's also Google Translate a fifteen hundreds Spanish different. 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:21.120 It was different, but it's an interesting little So you 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.480 kind of go up the Yucatan and then it's like 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.840 right across. I actually thought maybe it was more of 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:31.160 a straight line from Havana, Cuba. It's further away, certainly, 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:33.599 but I think it's a straighter line. Yeah, it's just 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.080 if you imagine like the north if you mentioned the 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.599 Yucatan Peninsula, the northwest corner, it's it's like pretty much 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:42.479 like due northwest, and I don't know how many miles 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.160 miles I believe. So when we give you the core gets, 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:48.560 write them down and then you can just enter that 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:50.760 directly into the map. Yeah, just write this down, you're ready. 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.800 Just kidding. The coordinates that you will see provided in 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:59.159 a lot of articles are twenty two degrees in, thirty 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:03.880 three minutes north, one degrees and twenty two minutes east. 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:06.600 But when you actually look that up, it's a small 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:13.080 island in Bangladesh. So that's not right. Yeah, I was choked. 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:16.880 I I thought you were sending you a snipe hunt. 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.480 I was so confused. Well, it took me a minute too, 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:21.880 you know. It kind of just plops you down in 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.760 the middle of c and you're like, well, but there's 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:29.080 an island there on Google Maps, so there must be this. 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.039 It can't be a mystery. And you zoom at, zoom at, 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:34.280 zoom out, and suddenly there's nothing in English. It's all 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.720 in you know, Arabic text, and you're like, okay, this 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.599 is obviously the wrong place. Yeah, So it turns out 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:45.239 that it's actually twenty two degrees thirty four minutes six 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:50.760 seconds north and nine degrees twenty one minutes and fifty 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:55.000 three point nine seconds west. Turns out decimal points are 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:59.040 important when it comes to this sort of thing. So 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:04.000 it's crazy. So go look that up. Those are the coordinates. 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.720 The island was always in the same place on the maps. 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.119 It was always well, well ish, I mean close enough 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.960 for the time. Yeah, that it's it's well assumed that 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.120 there was actually an island there at that time. Yeah, 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:20.360 but I'm looking at like, for example, that these two 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.200 maps here, they're both very old, and I have to 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.960 say it, but these maps are really all over the map, 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:30.960 so different numbers of islands. Some are on this one 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:35.400 and not on this one. You get you get a 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:39.280 tolls and you get islands that are there and not. Yeah, 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:41.359 and we will talk more about this in theories. Is 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.200 apparently my favorite phrase to talk about ever. But we 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.640 the islands. There are not always islands visible to the 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:51.800 naked eye that you know, cartographers would be seeing in 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:56.359 the fifteen six dreds. So, so how big is this 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:03.159 Meica is about? Was whichever is was a little challenging 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:07.880 about thirty one square miles um total land, which is 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:11.600 about eight square kilometers. So it's not nothing. It's not 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.200 a big thing, but it's not huge. But it's not like, oh, 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.800 I could jump to the other side of this island 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:19.840 and one fell swoop, you know, and you can walk 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:21.560 across it in a day, but it would take you 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:26.559 a full day square miles that's three three three miles 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:28.720 by ten miles depends on I mean you could walk 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.480 around it. Yeah. The jungle is I guess if there 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.120 is any no, no, no, no, and it's just just sand, 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.520 just say yeah, no, it's kind of rocks and sand. 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:40.880 Never as far as I have heard, you know, as 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.360 far as I have read at least not heard. There's 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:45.840 no it's not like trees and things like that. It's 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:50.960 just kind of sandy sandbar ish. This island Burham was 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:56.080 documented on maps until at which point an expedition failed 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.480 to locate the island when it was out couldn't find it. 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.240 I had read that it was the Mexican Navy that 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:07.560 was out on a fishing expedition. I don't know why 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:11.360 that was what it was, but apparently the Mexican Navy 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:13.800 goes out in the nineties with late nineties, they were 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.440 going on fishing expeditions and they tried to swing by 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:22.480 it and found that it wasn't there. I don't know. Yeah. Um, 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:26.800 In reality, the last confirmed mapping of Bermeja Island was 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.400 in nineteen twenty one, and that was in the Geographic 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.679 Atlas of the Mexican Republic. And so that was an 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.720 atlas that was published in Mexico. Correct, yes, yeah, And 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.560 then basically they just kind of they hadn't done any 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.320 kind of cartographic surveys. I just made that word up 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:48.160 cartography surveys at least for this certain publication, since that 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.160 was the last survey they did to confirm that all 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:53.880 the islands were where they were. Uh. And then in 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.679 the nineties this became more of a thing, which we're 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:58.720 about to talk to talk about in the second but 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:03.840 nine the last confirmed definitely they somebody saw it there time, 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.560 Like I said, Um, Mexican Navy was apparently doing this 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:15.960 fishing expedition and they yeah, yeah, and like I said, 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.320 it was it wasn't populated or anything. It was just 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:22.680 kind of the thing. So they I guess they just 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.160 kind of shrugged and thought, well, maybe we're in the 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.079 wrong place or who knows what. Um, and they went 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.000 on their way. They did report it. They couldn't find it, 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:36.079 but they didn't even reported. They reported the island missing island. 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.840 It's on Charlie Project. Yeah. Yeah, I think it might 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.440 be a yeah, a couple of pictures. They've actually done 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:50.800 an aging thing. How old it would yeah. Um. In 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:55.720 two thousand nine, very much more serious search for Vermeha 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.839 Island uh started and like three agencies took part of 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:05.760 the survey. Yeah. They can't blame them. Again, you can't 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.079 blame them. Yeah. The big question here, right is, Okay, 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:13.439 so an island went missing, who cares? Right, really? Who 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.760 cares well. UM, So you probably know, but you may 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:21.000 not know that the Gulf of Mexico is split between 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.720 the United States and Mexico. UM. There's this whole treaty 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:28.480 where it says that, you know, nations are supposed to 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.880 be allowed two nautical miles out to do whatever they 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:34.960 want off of their shores. But obviously the Gulf of 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:38.480 Mexico that's not necessarily feasible, so it's supposed to be. 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:42.160 It's negotiated, and oftentimes the way that those things are 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:47.320 negotiated is they'll say, well, this is our furthest for Mexico. 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:50.800 They would say, this is our furthest north spot that 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.079 we claim as our own land, so let's negotiate from there. 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.000 And then the US would say, okay, well this is 0:10:56.000 --> 0:11:00.000 our southernmost spot that we're claimed land, so let's negotiate 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:04.600 ate what a good you know, actable term it difference, right, 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:08.360 And it turns out that Bromeha was the northernmost point 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:12.959 for Mexico in the Gulf of Mexico that they claimed 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:17.520 that in that in that specific treaty, which was originally 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:23.199 negotiated in eight I believe, I believe, I believe I'm 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:25.760 pulling that number from my memory, so apologies if it's 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:31.960 wrong anyway. So with the loss of Bromeha, the next 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:36.280 closest island is like seventy ish mile I mean, it's 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:40.440 basically the uk tam Peninsula is the next closest bit 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:44.800 of land that Mexico claims, which means that Mexico has 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.959 lost a sizeable amount of their quote unquote territory within 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:52.440 the Gulf of Mexico, which also happens to include an 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:57.040 estimated twenty two point five billion barrels of oil. There's 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.560 a lot of oil down there, so it's kind of 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:07.320 a big Actually that Burmehan made finance Yeah, that has 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:09.760 nothing on it. Yeah, totally well with that, we're on 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:14.360 the theories. Yeah, just I told you its shorts man 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:17.720 doing it. It's actually kind of a lot to talk about. 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:23.680 The Yahoo out. So the first theory that we're going 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.080 to talk about is um that Burmehan may have just 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:33.280 never existed. UM. The National Autonomous University of Mexico, which 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.440 is UNAM, is one of the agencies, one of the 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.800 three agencies that in two thousand nine went out and 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:42.400 used what one article referred to as the most whiz 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:47.680 bang technology all there, which I thought was an interesting 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:53.280 phrase but okay attached to but I mean they were 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:56.320 actually they did actually do a lot of investigation in 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.360 this area. You know, they sent divers down, they used 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:03.240 all of the radio sonar, thank you sonar technology, all 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:07.800 that stuff, and basically what they concluded was that there 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.360 had never actually been an island there ever, based on 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.360 their findings. Yeah, you know, one of the things they 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:22.120 said was that just sizemologic size a malologically yeah, maybe 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.240 based on the way that the Earth's cross days in 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.880 that area, it didn't make sense for their to be 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.040 an island there anyway, which is fair. I mean, we've 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:33.600 got some maps and you when you look up on 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:37.000 Google Earth. Um, when you look this up, it shows 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.920 you where the you know, the shelf is there, and 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.160 it does it does make sense. You know, there's a 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.040 bunch of violence kind of along the shelf, but this 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:49.079 island is like not exactly where you would expect, and 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:53.599 if it is, it drops off quite precipitously. It's like 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:59.720 two down. Yeah. And then about Nuevo and Karnis the 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:01.880 two the ones that are closest to this one are 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.360 on the escarpment. That's what's called the Yukatan Escarpment. And 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.560 I've got this this map, I'll describe it. It shows 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.160 to drop off into what's called the six Be Deep 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.319 and and that is the deepest part of the Gulf 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.080 of Mexico. And then I plotted the I plotted the 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:18.840 island Ireland or Mayha and this right smack in the 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.560 middle of six be Deep. Yeah, it doesn't make down. Yeah, 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:26.360 the yeah, thirty six, Yeah exactly, that's the number that 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:28.640 I'm confusing with the other number. And bust talk. Yeah, 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:30.560 And why they why they're saying that there couldn't have 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.320 been an island for years, I don't really quite get that. 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.840 It seems like that. I guess they kind of they 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.040 did an analysis on the age of the sea floor 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:42.800 and decided that in no meaningful way had this sea 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.520 floor been disrupted in terms of like if there had 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:48.880 been an island that because an island is not I'm 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.080 I'm just making the assumption that you guys know this, 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:53.240 but I'm gonna say it anyway. And island isn't just 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:59.440 a floating thing. It land that comes up, and so 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.040 it would I don't know necessarily where they're coming from. 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.640 The fifty three hundred years necessarily, I would assume that 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.280 they just they were able to say that that's what 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:14.160 the age surrounding. Yeah, they gave that number, and so 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:16.520 I assumed that they just an analysis of the ocean 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.000 floor and said, Okay, this ocean floor was that undred 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:23.240 years ago. There's not been any major disruption before after 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.320 that time, so there couldn't have ever been an island here, 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:31.120 which is a fair assumption. Was reasonable. Yeah, you know, actually, um, 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:33.360 the way the way maps were done, especially in the 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:37.360 old days, is they relied on accounts from sailors and 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.560 explorers and people like that, and and so somebody could 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:43.360 have described an island to this to the map makers 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.280 back in Spain being at this particular spot, you know, 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.320 they scribbed a very seriously series and said, oh, it's 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.480 it's about this shape, it's about this size, you know, 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:52.120 and that's and that's all they had to go with. 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:55.160 That's how map making work back and then it was 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:58.120 copy paste, yeah, and that they were copied over and stuff, 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.200 and then and of course one another map was aid. 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.880 Then obviously they took that information off the previous map, 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.320 even though it was erroneous. Probably, and it turns out 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:08.480 sometimes they put disinformation in the maps back in the 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.440 old days too, Yeah, more than sometimes. Actually that was 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:16.040 an intentional ling. Yeah, because if you see this cluster, right, 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.960 So if if Spain's enemies, for instance, see this cluster 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.560 of islands in the middle of the Gulf Mexico, they're 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:24.200 going to think, okay, well there's no way we can 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:28.160 navigate that because it's really dangerous, so we're not going 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.360 to go over there, which means they're not going to 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:34.680 challenge Spain's claim to the land around that, which obviously 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.240 Spain claimed that land. And that was a thing that 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:41.200 was common just across the board everybody whenever they mapped anything, 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.720 they would just say, also, there's like this weird, I 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.920 don't know, coral reef thing here. It's crazy. I know, 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:48.480 it doesn't make sense that it's in the middle of 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.920 the ocean, but it's there. Don't try to get through it. 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.600 And that's the other part that it rei Jeff said 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:59.760 on account second hand account. So somebody could have gotten 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.200 you could have thought, oh, yeah, you know, there was 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.600 there was three of them in that area. There was 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:06.880 three island e things in that area. Wond In fact, 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.800 there was only two. And then when press. Uh, it was. 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.480 It was And it's like throwing a dart at a map. 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:17.040 It was right there and there was shaped like this. Yeah, 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:20.639 navigational tools and all that stuff. And but also an 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:24.120 interesting thing I found out just yesterday because I happen 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:25.920 to be reading a book about maps at the moment, 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.160 and that modern day map makers actually put disinformation in also. 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:32.840 You know that what they do is like say, when 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.160 we do this thing called trap streets, which is what 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.440 you do. If you're ACME map company and you're doing 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.600 a map of say London, what you do is you 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:42.720 put in somewhere in that map, you put a totally 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.480 fictitious street on your map, and you give it, give 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:47.080 it a unique name. You might name it after your 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.879 dog or something. That's a totally fake street that doesn't 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.120 exist in the real world. And that way, if your 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.040 competitors rip you off, then you have proof of a 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.359 copyright violation. And so that's why everybody they still they 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:00.960 still are putting disinformation in the apps even today. Do 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.719 they do that on Google? Um, I don't know. It's 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:07.520 a good question. I would have to imagine that Google 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.280 had worked out some kind of agreement with people at 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:13.880 least in the beginning. Google is mapping everything on their 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.640 freaking own at this point, so they probably aren't as 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.720 reliant anymore on those old maps. But but I mean, yeah, 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.840 it's it's well, hell, you remember map Quest. That thing 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:28.520 used to be wrong all the time, And now it 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:30.760 makes me wonder if it wasn't that they were taking 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.760 it way too far because the Internet was scary, or 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:36.520 if they just really were that crappy. Yeah, it's hard 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.119 to tell. I'm probably crappy. Google is. I mean they 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:44.159 are literally mapping everything. And there's this game called Geo Guesser, 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:46.600 which is super awesome. They just PLoP you down in 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.240 street view in Google and you have to guess where 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.639 in the world you are. Really do you get to 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:53.920 do you get to move around? You can move around, yeah, 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:55.960 but you know, all the signs are mostly blurred out. 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.280 But you know the I was playing the other day 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:00.639 and they ploted me to out in the middle of 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:05.800 literally a dirt road in like Spain, and I was 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:09.400 like clicking through and you're just like, there's nothing there. 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.439 It's just a dirt road. There's not even houses or anything, 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:14.320 and you're just like, well, I guess I'm just I 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.880 have to guess, but they're mapping stuff like that. It's insane. 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:20.480 That sounds like a fun game. I want to pay fun. Yeah, yeah, 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.679 well they're doing all kinds of crazy stuff, like with 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.639 street view. Joe and I before you got here today, 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:28.840 we're looking at a map of here in Portland, and 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.240 as Joe was panning around the Streetview's like wait, wait, wait, 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.119 go back, go back, And I can actually see the 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.840 reflection of the person who has had the camera, and 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.280 they were on a bicycle. You couldn't get a car 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.000 into the area. And they're like, okay, we'll figure out 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.480 how to bike mount a bunch of cameras and makes 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.200 somebody ride them through there. And it just happened to 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.720 catch it in the image they have they have people once. 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:57.480 I mean there's yeah, they're called ostriches anyway, we kind 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:01.960 of So I just wanted to say one other thing 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:03.720 about the history of maps, and then that is back 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:07.120 in the old old days, um maps were hot property, 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:11.359 was incredibly valuable intelligence, and so in the countries went 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:13.520 do great lengths to keep them, keep their all their 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.240 maps secret. And they were they weren't cheap to make. 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.880 It wasn't like you just made a thousand copies because 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.919 what the hell. Yeah, you know, it was a scribe 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:28.160 or a cryptographer sitting there hand creating these things over 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:31.640 and over. And I mean that's where inaccuracies come from. 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:36.400 It was part of an old manuscripts. Letters are changed, 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:41.520 drawings are wrong. It happens, yeah, absolutely, yeah. But so yeah, 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:44.600 the whole story of maps is interesting. I mean but 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:46.600 back in the day they were they were considered more 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:50.240 worth their weight in gold and some Yeah, absolutely accurate. Yeah. 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:54.040 So I mean it's it is totally possible in my 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:59.119 mind that I just never existed. I'm pretty sure it didn't. Well, okay, 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:01.680 but we have talked about their to the theory. There's 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:03.480 some other really interesting ones. Our next one is that 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.480 it just migrated, which is just like the yeah, and 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:11.480 it'll be back back. I mean, winters here, it's gonna 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:16.040 be a long winter, h didn't. I mean they sent 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:20.120 the white ravens, so I know, winters here, it's gonna 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:21.640 be a while and then it'll come back and it'll 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:24.359 be fine. Right. Yeah, So we're just saying that it 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:30.399 migrated due to like continental shelf shifting. It's dumb, Okay, 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:36.879 it's uh sank or global warming, which is which is 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.720 a fair thing to say. I mean, based on the 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.800 evidence that we've already presented, there's not an island just 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:46.359 you know, hanging out a couple hundred feet under water. 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:52.000 But during these renegotiations of the marine border, um, that happened. 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:56.760 They happened in I believe between Mexico and the United States. 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:01.600 Foreign Ministry legal advisor told senators that Vermeha Island was 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:07.919 actually just like a hundred and fifty feet or underwater. Um. 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:09.840 I don't think the oceans have been rising that fast. 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:12.639 I don't think so either. UM. I think that was 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:15.520 obviously a lie to try to convince senators that it 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:19.520 was okay to continue negotiating based on that land claim. 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:21.240 You know, again it was it was important because it 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:24.480 did reinforce the claim to that area, which contains a 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:27.760 bunch of oil. But there are things though. There there 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:31.439 are things what they're called disappearing islands. There's one actually, 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.520 there's one island in that area that's literally named disappearing 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:38.399 island because they're so low. They just sit right on 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:42.040 the surface, so they're really only seen when the tide 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:45.280 is really really low or you know, kind of low. 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:48.879 But when it's high tide, the islands disappear completely. But 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:52.240 those islands are all on the Yukatanas scarp. They are yeah, 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:54.679 and they are much smaller. They're not, you know, thirty 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:58.399 one square miles. So the thing that I wondered about 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:00.399 with this, because we're we're on this you know, the 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.720 island sank. We're back to Atlantis, by the way, but 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:07.920 we found Atlantis. It's at twenty two degrees no um. 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:09.840 But the thing is is that what I was looking 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:12.000 at is when I was looking at the escarpment and 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:17.639 zooming in, these coordinates may are based on a very 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:22.240 old map that is, as we've already said, probably fraught 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:26.240 with inaccuracies. But what I'm wondering is if that island 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:29.960 might have actually existed, was farther south, so it was 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:33.880 closer to just the the edge. Let's say that that 0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:37.040 area does collapse, because that if you look at that map, 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:39.480 you can see how there's areas where it's very it's 0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:42.400 a very subtle slope, and then there's very steep slopes. 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:44.560 So it could have been that there was some kind 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:49.040 of seismic activity and it just sort of flaked off 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.879 and over the course of the next two hundred years, 0:23:52.800 --> 0:23:55.000