1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan as a death investigator. There 2 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: are no other deaths that impact you more than the 3 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: death of a child. You can't get past it. Some 4 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,959 Speaker 1: people would say that it's almost a trite saying, but 5 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: I don't know that there are any truer words. I'm 6 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: still haunted by cases from my career involving the deaths 7 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: of little ones. The deaths of Tyley and JJ have 8 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: haunted us now for months as we continue to look 9 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: into this investigation of Laurie Valoe and Chad day Bell. 10 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: But something has come to light recently relative to DNA testing, 11 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: and today we're going to explore that. I'm Joseph Scott 12 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body Bags. I keep going around 13 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: and around and around with this case, and the more 14 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: doors that are opened, the more confused I am relative 15 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: to what we have as far as causal factors of death, 16 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: what we have as far as tie backs relative to 17 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: specific types of evidence that are out there, And I 18 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: got to tell you, I'm confused at this point in time. 19 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: Joining me today is Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime 20 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, we've been on this journey 21 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: together for a while. Are you as frustrated as I am? 22 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: I am Joe? And to be able to understand what's 23 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: going on with this case right now, we need to 24 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: back up and look at the history. Loriello has been 25 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,559 Speaker 1: married several times and that's very germane to this case. 26 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: At the moment, Laurie day Belle divorced her first husband, 27 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: then married Joe Ryan, that is Tyley's dad. They divorced, 28 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: and Joe Ryan died reportedly of natural causes. Next, Laurie 29 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: marries Charles Valo. Laurie and Charles adopts JJ. JJ is 30 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:31,399 Speaker 1: the biological son of Charles's nephew. Charles and Laurie get 31 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: a divorce, but have a contentious custody agreement. He goes 32 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: to the home to see JJ and at that point 33 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: he is shot by Laurie's brother Alex. He claimed it 34 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: was in self defense. Next in line is Chad day Bell, 35 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: but at the time that Laurie meets Chad day Belle, 36 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: Chad day Bell is married to Tammy day Belle. Tammy 37 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: day Belle dies in her sleep, no autopsy is done, 38 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: and Chad and Laurie get married on the beach in Hawaii, 39 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: just two weeks later. I'm gonna let you take this over, 40 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: Nan Joe, and explain to us the intricacies of Tammy 41 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: Daybelle's death. There was no autopsy, and ultimately Tammy Daybelle's 42 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 1: body was exhumed as questions arose whether or not her 43 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: death was truly of natural causes. You know, the beauty 44 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: of what we have here, relative there is any kind 45 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: of beauty, I think is the simplicity of science, as 46 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: confusing as people can make things in their own life, 47 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: the messiness of it. When we're looking at death investigation, 48 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: we always turned to the science and we try to 49 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: get an understanding of the world that we inhabit. Certainly 50 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: Tammy Day bell we think about her death. We think 51 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: about JJ and Tyley, and with Tammy, Tammy was, you know, 52 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: and we've done a full episode of Bodie Bags on 53 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: Tammy and that case has always struck me as so 54 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: bizarre and not necessarily just simply her death, but what 55 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: took place afterwards, because you have a very young woman 56 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: who was in robust health that had no and I 57 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: mean no signs of any kind of disease or pathology 58 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: or anything going on. As a matter of fact, it's 59 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: been widely reported that she was trained to participate in 60 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: races and all these sorts of things that is running, 61 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: and she had no previous complaints. But yet she's found 62 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: dead by her husband, Chad day Bell, that faithful morning 63 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: and seemingly the wheels began to fall off. From an 64 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: investigative standpoint, you've got a less than thorough investigation into 65 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: her death at that moment in time. She is not autopsied, 66 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: which somebody given her age range should have been autopsied, 67 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: particularly with no previous medical history, because you know, the 68 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 1: coroner looks at a case like this and if you 69 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: don't have an attending physician that's treating you for some 70 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: kind of disease, then it falls to the corner to 71 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: sign the death certificate. Well, what are you going to 72 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: list as a cause of death in a situation like this? 73 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: And in conclusion, you know, her death was listed as 74 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: a very nonspecific natural type of death and it's anything 75 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: but that she was essentially embalmed and taken across state 76 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: lines from Idaho to Utah and where she was buried. 77 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: Her body was in the ground for months before somebody 78 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: came to their senses and said, you know what, we've 79 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: got all these other deaths that are occurring. We've got 80 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: this young woman who is in pretty good health. We 81 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: probably need to exhume her and take her body out 82 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: and take a look at what's happened. Let me jump 83 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: in here, Joe, Forty something year old women do not 84 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: usually die in their sleep. When it does happen, obviously, 85 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: the first thing you think of is some kind of 86 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: heart condition, a heart attack or something along those lines. 87 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: But if that had been the case here, that would 88 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,559 Speaker 1: have been listed on the death certificate as the cause 89 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: of death as opposed to just natural causes. Correct. Yeah, yeah, 90 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: it would have been. And you know, when we think 91 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: about heart attack, the only way to make that diagnosis 92 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: is to do an autopsy. Now, you can suppose a 93 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: few things. I guess if somebody has a diagnosis of 94 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: heart disease, they have a diagnosis of hypertension or any 95 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: other kind of contributing factors. But we didn't have that. 96 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: So in order to make a diagnosis of a heart attack, 97 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: which actually is term that is used in the general 98 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: public from a medical perspective, it's called a miodcardial infarction, 99 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: which means that part of the micardium of the heart 100 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: has died due to insufficient blood supply, oxygenated blood supply. 101 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: So you have that little bit of heart muscle, the 102 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: miocardium that actually dies and the heart is incapable of 103 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: keeping up and dividing the body with the supply of blood, 104 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: and so the individual dies. But you have to visualize 105 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: that in order to make that diagnosis post mortem. This 106 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: is not like you've got somebody in the hospital where 107 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: you're doing diagnostic testing and all those kinds of things 108 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: that go on that didn't happen here. You've got somebody 109 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: that you're saying that this is a cardiac related death. 110 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: They're found dead in bed, they have no previous history, 111 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: and you're just going to kind of go off into 112 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: the ether and make this determination. Well, that's a problem, 113 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: particularly when you have in your periphery you have all 114 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: of these other people that have died. That is a 115 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: horrible set of circumstances to put the authorities in. And 116 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: that decision was made at that critical moment time where 117 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: they just decided to release the body and have her buried. 118 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: And the reason it poses a problem is not only 119 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: have you not examined internally to see what was going 120 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: on with a heart or with a brain, you know, 121 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: because it could have been a stroke. Okay, I guess 122 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: you could make that that argument. But also once the 123 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: embalming process takes place, then all the blood is gone. 124 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: You know, that's the purpose of embolming. You know, you 125 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: remove the blood, you replace it with embalming fluid. At 126 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: that point in time, can't do toxicology because you can't 127 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,679 Speaker 1: see what's going on at a chemical level in the body. 128 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: All of that's gone. It's literally flushed down the drain 129 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: in the mortuary. It's gone. You can't do it. You're hoping, 130 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: you know, once you have a body that has been 131 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: disinterred where it has been exhumed, which requires an order 132 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: of a judge, which is no small feed, you're hoping 133 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: that something physically will still present itself, like you know, 134 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: the things we talk about, like if you're looking at 135 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 1: an asphyxial death where perhaps there are little pinprick hemorrhages 136 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: in the eyes, you know, for instance, PATICII, to see 137 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: that there's evidence that there was pressure applied to the 138 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: airway and that maybe the reason the individual died, or 139 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: if there's some kind of physical manifestation in the neck, 140 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: you know, hemorrhage in the muscles, because the embalming process 141 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: is not going to wipe away that hemorrhage because it's 142 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: outside of the vessels at that point in time, it's 143 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: kind of stained the muscle tissue or the interstitial tissue, 144 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: and so you're hoping that you can find that or 145 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,719 Speaker 1: fractured highoid, you know, we always talk about highoid or 146 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: the cardilaginous bodies in the neck. You're hoping that there's 147 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: some evidence there that you can appreciate, but other than that, 148 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: you're not going to find anything. So they've really put 149 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: themselves between a rock and a hard place when it 150 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: comes to Tammy Daville's death. The final determination in Tammy 151 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: day Belle's death has not been publicly announced yet. We 152 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: do know that the autopsy is complete, but again, officials 153 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: have not released the actual cause of death. However, the 154 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: Daybell children did tell CBS News forty eight hours that 155 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: they were told that their mother died of asphyxiation. So 156 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: let's move forward now, Joe to JJ Entirely, their bodies 157 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: were found on Chad day Belle's property. How did police 158 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: go about finding the bodies? Was it cadaver dogs. Was 159 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: it ground penetrating, ground penetrating sonar or radar or was 160 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: it just good old fashioned police work? How did they 161 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: find the bodies? Joe? First off, this is a missing 162 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: person's case, if you know, if we can reflect back, 163 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: everybody wants to know where JJ Valo and Tyley Ryan 164 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: and I remember covering this when it first dropped, and 165 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: you know, everybody was anxious to find these kids that 166 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: just seemingly vanished off of the face of the planet. 167 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: Of course, Tyley went missing before JJ did, and folks 168 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: were looking for her, and then of course JJ went 169 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: missing as well. After you've exhausted everything, as investigators where 170 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: you're doing a missing persons investigation, you have to go 171 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: back to that point in time where were they last 172 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: seen and you have to think, you know, it's what 173 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: are the odds that these two chill that are part 174 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: of the same family would just kind of vaporize and 175 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: disappear into thin air and there not be a connection. 176 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: So what draws you back to where they were connected? 177 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: And that's what led authorities to Chad day Bell's property. 178 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: And it's you know, it's in a rural area in Idaho. 179 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,599 Speaker 1: You could refer to it as a that's kind of 180 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: an aggrabased environment that's there and a lot of property. 181 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: There's outbuildings adjacent to the main house, and you kind 182 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: of have pasture land out there. There's kind of a 183 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: communal firing where, you know, you can see aerial shots. 184 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: You can actually see logs that people have pulled up 185 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: around the firing. You can imagine you're hanging out with 186 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: friends and whatnot. Maybe somebody's got a guitar out. You're 187 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: maybe roasting marshmallows over the fire up in that chili 188 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: environment in Idaho and just enjoying yourself. It almost has 189 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: a bucolic feel to it when you begin to see it, 190 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: and then the horror is kind of revealed. You know, 191 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: I can remember it clear as day. They'd found this disturbed, 192 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: upturned soil which looked odd on the property where you've 193 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: got what appears to be side that has been laid 194 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: down over a particular area, and it's not like widespread, 195 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: it's in one focal area. And they go to remove 196 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: these layers of side, dig down through the strata there, 197 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: you know, and soil, and they come across these odd 198 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: stones that are beneath the beneath the surface there and 199 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: they begin to pull those away. They're described as these 200 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: flat stones, and they're lying there beneath those stones is 201 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: the body of JJ. He's wrapped up. He's wrapped up 202 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: in that environment. You know some thought had gone into this, 203 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: because you know, why would you put stones over the body? Well, 204 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: whoever did this understood that when soil is disturbed, you 205 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: can never get soiled back to the way it once 206 00:12:55,400 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 1: appeared once you've put shovel to it. So I think 207 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: at least the reason the stones were placed there was 208 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: so that there would be some underpinning of the soil 209 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: and it wouldn't have such a depressed appearance to it. 210 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: When you begin to look at the topography of the 211 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: soil and that overlying saw that had been intentionally placed there, 212 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: it gives you the impression that everything is as it 213 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: should be, and of course that wasn't the case because 214 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: it saw it. I think as it did give away. 215 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: You know, you've got that one plot that's there that 216 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: you know happens to have a different appearance, and everything 217 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: else around you you can never draw it back to 218 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 1: its natural setting prior to disturbing soil. And then they 219 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: began to examine this firing area over there, which also 220 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: is adjacent and this is kind of ghastly adjacent to 221 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: where the family would bury pets, and some people have 222 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: referred to it as a pet cemetery. I don't know 223 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: if that's accurate or not, but you know, when they 224 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: began to dig through the firing and dig through the 225 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: area's immediately adjacent there, they began to find fragmented bone 226 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 1: and even some soft tissue eventually, and of course that 227 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: turned out to be Kylie's remains. She had been rendered down, 228 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: an attempt had been made to render her remains down 229 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: in this fire, and it has come out to you 230 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: at this point that not only was there an attempt 231 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: to consume her remains with fire, but prior to that, 232 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: there's an indication from the authorities. They've alluded to it 233 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: that she was dismembered. And so you've got these these 234 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: bone fragments that are there, and they're not just merely 235 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: bone fragments. When you're going through an area like this, 236 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: you have to understand that if you're talking about dismemberment, 237 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: and I have to think that this is the case, 238 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: because they've mentioned this several times. They have evidence that 239 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: the bones are not just merely fragmented as a result 240 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: of what are referred to as like heat fractures where 241 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: bone comes apart because the fire is so hot. They 242 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: have specific margins that they're looking at that give them 243 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: an indication that a tool was applied to the bone, 244 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: to the sculptal remains, and these are going to be 245 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: neater cuts, and that gives you an idea of what 246 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: had taken place prior to the body being burned. There's 247 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: preparation that's gone on with both of these remains. Tyley's 248 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: is certainly very ghastly. But when you look at JJ 249 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: going back to his spot where they had laid him 250 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: down in the ground, there was this kind of weird 251 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: memorialization because one of the things I didn't mention was that, yeah, 252 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: he had been wrapped in plastic. Certainly his head was 253 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: and you know, I remember the detective talking about in 254 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: great detail, and you seem was very disturbed when he 255 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: was given he was given testimony and preliminary hearing about 256 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: how much tape there was. There was a tremendous amount 257 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: of duct tape that was involved in in the wrapping 258 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: of his body. But they also had taken some kind 259 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: of blanket and laid over his body before they put 260 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: the stones, And that gives you an idea. I think, 261 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: at least that's what we've referred to as memorialization of 262 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: the dead. His body was treated differently than Tyle's. Tyle's 263 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: was there was an attempt to completely eradicate any evidence 264 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: of her existence, but with JJ there was an attempt to, 265 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, honor him in some way, which is 266 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: kind of a weird term, I know, But when you 267 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: compare it to the way his body was treated versus Tyl's, 268 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: it's quite striking. There's many times when you're an investigator 269 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: and you're standing out at a scene, particularly where you've 270 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: got more than one body, you're very confused. For a moment. 271 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: You're trying to decide what should I do next? Am 272 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: I doing everything that I need to do in order 273 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: to preserve and make note of all of the little 274 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: details that are at the scene. And you know, there 275 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: are many times I've gone home after working cases where 276 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: I scratched my head and said, oh, gee, did I 277 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: do this? Did I do that? And in this particular case, 278 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: relative to JJ Valo and Tylie Ryan, I can only 279 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: imagine those investigators felt the same way, because it is 280 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: just Jackie, just an overwhelming amount of evidence that they 281 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: had to collect out there. Let's look at the positioning 282 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: of the bodies. JJ's body and the remains of Tylie 283 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: Ryan were not close together. They were in the same 284 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: general vicinity, but they were not laid side by side. 285 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: The recovery of JJ's body would have have to have 286 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 1: been much simpler, given that he was entombed in cased 287 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: in plastic with duct tape wrapped almost mummy style around 288 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: his body. So once the officers the investigators opened the 289 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: plastic and realize that there was a body inside and 290 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: they could see the red Pj's that it was reported 291 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: that JJ went missing in, how do they proceed, Joe. 292 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: Do they just move and lift his body into a 293 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: body bag and then search the soil and ground underneath. 294 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: How would they do that? Yeah? Yeah, And essentially that's 295 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: what you would have to do with both of these cases. 296 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: It's truly an excavation, if you will, and I mean 297 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,239 Speaker 1: that in the purest anthropological term. You're having to make 298 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: sure that you account for everything that you possibly can. 299 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: Talking about JJ, you never know what's going to be 300 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: down in a dug grave, and it can be the 301 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 1: slightest thing of work. Cases where people will flick cigarette 302 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: butts down into holes before they placed the body on 303 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: top of the cigarette butt. You can find evidence of 304 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: shovel strikes on stone that are down there, maybe there's 305 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: a route that has been cut through, and again that's 306 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: that has evidentiary value. And there are even cases where 307 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: individuals have left behind items that may have fallen out 308 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: of their pocket if you can imagine that while digging 309 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: a hole. So you have to account for all of that. 310 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 1: It's not just a matter of having lifted JJ's remains 311 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: out of this dug grave and then place them in 312 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: a body bag and taking them away. There's a certain 313 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: amount of care that has to go into this. And 314 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that you have to 315 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: think about with particularly with you know, we talked about 316 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: this tape and it's they've identified it as duct tape, 317 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: is that duct tape and the surfaces of these bags 318 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: can in fact contain evidence that will be linkage back 319 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: to individuals that are responsible for this. Again, I reflect 320 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: back through the father of modern forensics, in my opinion, 321 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,959 Speaker 1: is at model a card. You know this idea of 322 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: Lacart's principle. Every contact leaves a trace. Anything that you 323 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: do where you're touching a surface, whether it be a 324 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: plastic bag, and certainly with tape, you have the potential 325 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,360 Speaker 1: of leaving behind trace evidence that's caught up, say, for instance, 326 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: on the adhesive surfaces of the tape, and on the 327 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: surfaces of the bags, and particularly if you've got multiple 328 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: layers of bags, which kind of sounds like is one 329 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: of the things that we're dealing with here. If you've 330 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: encased a body bag within bag on that inner surface, 331 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 1: the surfaces exposed to the dirt and to moisture. Direct exposure, 332 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: you might not have a chance at getting trace evidence 333 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: off of that, but that inner area of that inner 334 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: layer you could even find latent prints on the surface 335 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: of the plastic itself. Remember plastic is non porous, so 336 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: it's not as smooth as glass, but you can leave 337 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: behind print there. So you have to be very very 338 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 1: careful and treated very carefully. One of the things that 339 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: was really striking to me is, and I found this 340 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: a little bit truffling, is that the detective that was 341 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: watching all this took place. In his testimony, he actually 342 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: stated that one of the investigators at the scene had 343 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: taken out a knife and had cut the bag open 344 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: at the scene, revealing JJ's face. You can see brown 345 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 1: hair and these sorts of things. That's something that I 346 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: would not advise anybody to do at the scene. There'll 347 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: be plenty of time to get identification done once you 348 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: get it back into a controlled environment. But the problem 349 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: with cutting a bag open is that once that bag 350 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: is open, first off, you don't know what you're cutting 351 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: across beneath that surface. Remember, if you're talking about multiple layers, 352 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: you can disrupt evidence beneath there. And also just to 353 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: open the bag, that means you're pulling it apart, and 354 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: then you're in a dirty environment and anything can fall 355 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: into that bag, your own hair, for instance, if you're 356 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: not prepared physically where you're wearing a tiebec suit for instance, 357 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: in gloves, and all those sorts of things, where you 358 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: can transfer your own evidence that you're bringing into the 359 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: scene or evidence that you were there as an investigator. 360 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: It's not a controlled environment. You want to try to 361 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: get that body back in pristine state, and in this case, 362 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: they had to transport these bodies all the way back 363 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: to Boise because that's where the bodies are examined, and 364 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: you would want to essentially do an entire x ray 365 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: of the body before you ever remove anything from that 366 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: body or disrupt the packaging in any way, because that 367 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 1: a case can rise and fall dependent upon that. Just 368 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: because you have a need to see the face, that 369 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: doesn't trump the importance of the value of the evidence 370 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: that you might be disrupting. The recovery of Tiley's body 371 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: was an entirely different matter because, as you said, Tiley's 372 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: body had been dismembered and she had been burned. In fact, 373 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: there was evidence of a green plastic bucket which was 374 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: used to burn Tyley's head her body. Tylie's body was 375 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: placed into the fire and stirred. For lack of a 376 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: better way to put it, that's so disrespectful to say 377 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: it that way, but in reality, that's what happened. That's 378 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: the reality of what you're doing with here. You know, 379 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: you can't church this up and make it pleasant and 380 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: nice for everybody. You can't do that. That's the reality 381 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: of whoever did this is this is dastardly dirty work 382 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: that has taken place here. And so as an investigator, 383 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: when you're taking a look at the scene and you're 384 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: trying to process it. Again. I go back to this 385 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: idea that this is from an anthropological standpoint, you have 386 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: to apply, you know, archaeological methodologies here in doing the recovery. 387 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 1: And I think in one of the scenes, I actually 388 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: saw sifting stations that they had set up, which are 389 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: screening stations, and people are kind of familiar with this, 390 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, where you have the big kind of box 391 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,239 Speaker 1: that has the screening where you shake down and you 392 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: can look through all the remnants in there, because if 393 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: you're talking about cremines, which is what burned remains are 394 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: referred to as things. For the average investigator that are 395 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 1: out there at the scene, you might see something that 396 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: to you just looks like a dirt clode. But for 397 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: the experienced anthropologists that's out helping you with the recovery, 398 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: they can certainly see the difference between and I'm talking 399 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: about just eyeball and it. That's how good these people are. 400 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: They can tell the difference between a dirt clode, for instance, 401 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: and a bit of human bone. It's amazing when you're 402 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: around folks in this field, and this is what they 403 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: spend years and years learning to do. And working their 404 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: way through. So you look at these circumstances and you 405 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: see what has been left behind. You have to take care. 406 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: And in several of the photographs you can see these 407 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: aerial shots that they have. They've dug down several layers, 408 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: but not real, real deep. This is not a deep 409 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: deep burial, you know, where you think about a grave, 410 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: you know the standard is six feet deep. It's not 411 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 1: like that. But you can tell in some of the 412 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: progressions of the photos because they're taking over time. You 413 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: see the investigators are standing there and it's getting deeper 414 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: and deeper, but not to the level of like you know, 415 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: up to their mid thigh or anything. It wasn't that deep. 416 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: But you have to take down every layer. And this 417 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: is the strata stratified, and you have to look at 418 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: each bit of strata and collect everything that you can 419 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: to this this issue with the bucket, which is chilling, 420 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: to say the very least, that might be one of 421 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: the few items that you have could potentially give you 422 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,479 Speaker 1: an indication of what type of accelerant was used. If 423 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,239 Speaker 1: they were applying some type of gas or something like 424 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: a fuel like this to initiate the fire, and that 425 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: that bucket as horrific as it is, might hold a 426 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: key to tying back chemically to any kind of accelerant 427 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: that was applied to this area, because you know, I 428 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: don't know that they didn't recover any type of clothing. 429 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: I don't know if they did or not, because many 430 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: times we rely on clothing looking for accelerance, and we 431 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: can take those and have those tested and that sort 432 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: of thing to see what type of fuel had been 433 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: applied to that area. The bucket is going to be 434 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: critical though, And to your point, this attempt at rendering 435 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: is absolutely horrific because there's this issue of contact and 436 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: melting and all these sorts of things that have kind 437 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 1: of commingled with Tyley's remains. When this case is in court, 438 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: the jury is going to hear that, and it's going 439 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 1: to be absolutely horrific. I think it's going to be 440 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: something that these people, certainly on this jury have never 441 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: heard of before, have never seen, have never fought that 442 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: somebody could do this to another human being, And it's 443 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: going to be quite striking. It's gonna be very very powerful. 444 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: But they have to make sure that everything they've collected 445 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: out that scene, all that bit of fragmented bone, that 446 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: they've talked about a lot that they've collected it because 447 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: even the most minuscule bit of bone that's out there, 448 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: you have to examine it adividually and it will have 449 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: individual characteristics. And this goes back to the thought about dismemberment. 450 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: With dismemberment, you have to understand that there will be 451 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: tool marks, and if you have tool marks, that means 452 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: that someone picked up an instrument and used it to 453 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: take apart the spot, and that tool mark will be 454 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: a specific tie back to a type of tool, whether 455 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: it's a saw, a hatchet, an axe, whatever the case 456 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: might be. If that's the case, then you can begin 457 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: to kind of understand what may have happened if if 458 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 1: it was a crushing kind of blow that you might 459 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: see with an axe, or if it was a sawing, 460 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: which you know, there's any number of saws and they're 461 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 1: very distinctive their teeth. You have hack saws that are 462 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: going to look completely different than say, lumbert saws, are 463 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: limb saws, those sorts of things, and again, those are 464 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 1: specific tie backs that are It's a concept that we 465 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: talked about in forensics all the time called individualization of evidence. 466 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: And so they've taken their time with us. This is 467 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: one of the reasons it's taken so long for this 468 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: case to finally make it to the point where we're 469 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: right on the verge trial. Perhaps everything that you said, 470 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: Joe leads us to the filing made by prosecutors asking 471 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: for DNA testing on evidence found at the recovery scene 472 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: of the bodies. Finally there may be an answer to 473 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: who killed JJ Higley. There's an old saying that people 474 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: talk about paralysis through analysis. You know, you can overthink 475 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: things many times, and when you have bits of evidence 476 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: that have to be analyzed, have to be examined because 477 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: you remember, we have to keep in mind that every 478 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: bit of evidence, forensic evidence or potential evidence that's at 479 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: a scene or little breadcrumbs that lead back to what 480 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: actually happened. Remember, we weren't there to witness these horrible events. 481 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: The evidence is going to actually point us in that 482 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: particular direction, to give us an indication of what may 483 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: have happened and more importantly, who may have been involved. 484 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: And I think that that's what they're looking at here. 485 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: The prosecution in the case against Lorie Valoe and Chad 486 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: day Bell has requested that a judge allow forensic DNA 487 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: testing on evidence recovered from this scene, nan Joe. With 488 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: the way that we are in society today with NCIS, 489 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: CSI and Criminal Minds, all of the forensic investigative shows 490 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: that are very popular these days, people have the idea 491 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: that the minute evidence has recovered, that it's automatically sent 492 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: to the lab and tested for everything possible. That's not 493 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: the case. In fact, prosecutors had not really requested anything 494 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: be tested before. Now why, well, we have to go back. 495 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: I think in twenty twenty one there was a request 496 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: and the defense has kind of fought that. They fought 497 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: that all along the way because they knew they have 498 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: known for some time that the evidence that prosecution the state. Okay, 499 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: because this is now people have a hard time. I 500 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: want to break this down very briefly. This is the 501 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: state's evidence. It's the state's evidence, it's not the defense 502 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: is evidence. Is the evidence that the state has gone 503 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: out their crimesing unit and they have collected. This is 504 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: the evidence that has been collected at autopsy, at examination. 505 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: All these items have been collected by the state. So 506 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: when the defense sees this, they know that there's going 507 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: to be one shot at this because what they have 508 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: been told is that the state intends to conduct what 509 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: is referred to as a consumptive test, and consumptive means 510 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: that these little points of evidence that they're finding, you're 511 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: going to get one shot at it because it's so minuscule, 512 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: in my opinion, at least, it's so minuscule that simply 513 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: by testing that bit of evidence, it's going to eradicate 514 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: the evidence at that point. Essentially, at the end, you're 515 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: just going to have a finding. You know, through the testing, 516 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: whether it's DNA or fiber evidence or whatever the case 517 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: might be, are potentially even fingerprint evidence, and so it's 518 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: going to be consumptive testing that evidence will no longer 519 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: exist to be tested. Again, that's what the defense is 520 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: putting forth. That's what the state is stating is going 521 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: to happen, and they have waited some time to do this. 522 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: I am I think, like many people, struck by the 523 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: fact that it hasn't been done to this point. Again, 524 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: back to this idea of individualization. These are specific tie back, 525 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: scientific tie backs to everybody that had contact with these bodies, 526 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: who was involved in these events leading up to the death. 527 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: And one of the things that comes to mind is. 528 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: And one of the things that's the most striking for 529 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: me is they've talked about these dried dark spots that 530 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: are on the handles of both a pickaxe and on 531 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: the handle of shovel and I don't know the side 532 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: Hang on right there a second, Joe, Let's detail what 533 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: you're talking about here. Prosecutors want to send for testing 534 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: hairs found on duct tape inside the body bag that 535 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: was used to transport JJ Valo's body. Fingerprint details on 536 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,479 Speaker 1: the adhesive side of the tape. Dark spots on the 537 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: handles of a shovel and a pickaxe were covered from 538 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: the day Belle property swabs from JJ's fingernails that were 539 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: obtained during his autopsy. Those are the things you're referencing. Yeah, 540 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: it is. Let's kind of go through these and think 541 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: about what, you know, what each of these means. People 542 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: talk a lot about DNA, it's not all going to 543 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: necessarily be DNA. It can be other things of other 544 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: evidentiary value. I think the duct tape is a fine 545 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: example of this because not only what we have found 546 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: out is not only are there potential latent prints that 547 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: are left behind on the tape, latent prints means that 548 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: it's potentially either an invisible print or if you think 549 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: about the adhesive and everybody at home you can do 550 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: this yourself. But if you have a piece of tape, 551 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 1: take a piece of tape and go to the adherent side, 552 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: the sticky side, and roll your finger the pad of 553 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: your finger over that adherent that he's upside and when 554 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: you pull it away, you can actually see that there 555 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: is a finger print that's left there. That's what we 556 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: refer to as a plastic print. It's not a typical 557 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: print that has been left behind by fatty lippets, which 558 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: you know, you go to a non poor surface like 559 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: a mirror, and you put your fingers on that surface, 560 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: you'll leave behind a print there that is there because 561 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 1: of a transfer from the kind of the fatty residue 562 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: that's seeping through on the paths of your fingers. With 563 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: this in the adhesive of the tape, and I can 564 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 1: only imagine that might be what they're talking about. You're 565 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: going to have an impression that has been left behind 566 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: that is going to be a visible print. Perhaps the 567 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 1: trick is how do you examine that print without destroying it? 568 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: And are they going to be able to do that. 569 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,839 Speaker 1: They've talked about that, I know, for instance, I don't 570 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: know if they've identified some type of item that is 571 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: within that impression that has been left behind. Certainly you 572 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: could have perhaps a skin cell that is left there 573 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: in that adhesive. And then you're left with this idea, well, 574 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: do I examine the print or do I extricate that 575 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: bit of by iCal tissue to do a DNA And 576 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: you're gonna have to sacrifice one in order to do 577 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: the other. Perhaps maybe it's only a partial print, but 578 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: yet you have some kind of biological item that's in there, say, 579 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: for instance, like skin or tissue or something, or even blood, 580 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to have to destroy that in order to 581 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: compromise one thing to get the other. Then you think 582 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: about JJ's fingernails, and this was quite horrible. I know, 583 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: and remember he had been he had been entombed to 584 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: use the term that was used earlier. But you know 585 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: he's interred in this grave that has been dug, and 586 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: he's been down for a while. We're talking from I 587 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: think September. I can't remember the exact number of months, 588 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: but it was a protracted period of time. They wentn't 589 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: missing in September I know his nails were still intact, 590 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: which is not uncommon, but they have evidence that they've 591 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: recovered from beneath the nails. And what happens at autopsy 592 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: when we do nail examinations is that you do two things. 593 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: You look for tissue that's caught beneath the nail, where 594 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: you have skin cells that are perhaps caught up. You 595 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: have tissue that is rolled up beneath there. Again, if 596 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: it's skinned or any kind of tissue, you can perhaps 597 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: you can get a biological sample from that. And then 598 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: we do nail clippings. So the nails would have been 599 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: clipped at that point and collected and held onto. They 600 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 1: still have all of that. That's something that has been 601 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: captured that they are trying to determine what to do 602 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: with it, and so that's quite striking. I think in 603 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: this case we have to think about they've found, apparently 604 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: going back to the tape, a hair or hairs that 605 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,280 Speaker 1: are caught up in the tape. The question is whose 606 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 1: hair is it. It's one thing you would have an 607 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: expectation that you would have JJ's hair that may be 608 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: on the tape, But if it's another hair, is that 609 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: hair viable and what's the point of origin? Is it 610 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: a head hair, is it a pubic hair, is it 611 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: an arm hair that has been pulled off? And when 612 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,439 Speaker 1: you begin to look at the morphology of the hair, 613 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: that is the examination of the nature of the hair, 614 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: you can kind of identify that in one big grouping. 615 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: But then you begin to think about DNA examination of 616 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 1: the hair. Is it a bulb, Do you actually have 617 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: it yanked out from the base, from the root, if 618 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: you will, and that's a much more rich area in 619 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: order to harvest DNA from. Or is it merely a 620 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: broken shaft. That's a bit less specific because you're going 621 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: to have to motochondrial DNA on the shaft of a hair. 622 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: So the idea is to track that hair back to 623 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: try to find that point of origin. Now, if Chad 624 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 1: day Bell, who has been charged in this case, and 625 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: there's indications that Alex Cox was involved in this, I 626 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 1: think that the defense is going to say, well, we 627 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: would expect to find hair from Chad day Bell or 628 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: Alex Cox because both of these men were in JJ's life, 629 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: and this is kind of an arbitrary finding. They're going 630 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 1: to try to paint it like that it's an expected finding. 631 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: You know, you have a commingling of DNA perhaps, but 632 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: I think that the fact that it's caught up in 633 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: that tape, and that tape was used to bind him up, 634 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: it's going to be very, very powerful of it. The 635 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 1: biggest issue with this testing is that once it's done, 636 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: it's done. There will not be another opportunity to conduct 637 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: a test if any error is made. Obviously, they're wanting 638 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: to find the possibility of finding out who was present 639 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: at the time the murders took place. However, once this 640 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,959 Speaker 1: testing is done, it is done. All possibilities of any 641 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 1: future testing are lost. Yeah, there's no du over. There's 642 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 1: no do over whatsoever. Even the prosecution the state is 643 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: that's what they're stating. This is going to be a 644 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 1: consumptive test. It's going to be gone forever and ever. Amen. 645 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: One interesting part to this is that the defense has 646 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: stated that they want representatives there for this testing. I 647 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: think the folks at the State Crime Lab said, you know, no, no, 648 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: that's not going to happen. One individual did at least, 649 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: and people have stated relative to the DNA testing that 650 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: they would like an observer there, maybe a third party 651 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: to do it. I think somebody is even put forth 652 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: this idea that you'd get an independent lab to examine that, 653 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,919 Speaker 1: and that's that's not going to happen, because, as I stay, 654 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: what did I stayed earlier? I stated that this is 655 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: the state's evidence. There's a reason that the people of 656 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: Idaho pay to have a state crime lab. It is 657 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 1: the tool that the state uses in order to process evidence. 658 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 1: It is, to the best of my knowledge, a certified lab, 659 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: so that means that it meets all of the standards. 660 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: So what are you saying that they're going to do 661 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 1: something nefarious to the evidence. I don't think that that 662 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: would be the case. You want a third party to 663 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: come in. I think that that might be reasonable, But 664 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: one of the problems is is that you run the 665 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: risk of cross contamination. You know, the more people that 666 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: are involved in this thing, the more damage that can 667 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: be done. So those are very interesting questions that the 668 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,839 Speaker 1: court is going to have to deal with, the judge 669 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 1: is going to have to deal with it. I think 670 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,399 Speaker 1: that it's a It can be a dangerous precedent, if 671 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: you will, because if they move forward and they say, okay, 672 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: well we're going to deviate from what the norm is 673 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: here from what our standard is. Then that means that 674 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,760 Speaker 1: this case would be impactful, not just obviously on everybody 675 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,359 Speaker 1: that's involved, but any other cases that move forward in 676 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: state of Idaho relative to criminal prosecution. They say, well, 677 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: you know they got it done. We want to have 678 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: this done as well. And it literally becomes a true nightmare, 679 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 1: not just from an administration standpoint, but certainly from getting 680 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: to the truth. So's this case is going to resonate. 681 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,879 Speaker 1: Both of these cases will resonate in Idaho and maybe 682 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,839 Speaker 1: you across the country for years and years to come. 683 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,840 Speaker 1: You brought up the state officials saying no, we really 684 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: don't want anybody there observing. And the fact of the 685 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: matter is, Joe, is that they're worried about human error. 686 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: They're worried about being distracted. Since this is the only 687 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: opportunity to do this testing, any distractions can lead to 688 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: human error. So unless this person who is watching stands still, 689 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: doesn't move, doesn't talk, that's the only way to eliminate 690 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 1: the possibility. They're worried about human error. Yeah, they are, 691 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: they are. You have to think about, well, what would 692 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: that person's role be that would be there. Would they 693 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 1: be participating in the testing or would they just be 694 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: an observer? Do they make comment? Again, you're talking about 695 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: error and being distracted. And look, from a medical legal standpoint, 696 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 1: I've been involved in cases autopsies, for instance, where we've 697 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: had third parties that are present in the autopsy suite. 698 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: I think famously one of the cases that comes to 699 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: mind in recent years is Epstein's case. Remember, doctor Boden 700 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: was physically present. He was representative for the family that 701 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: was there during Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy, and of course that 702 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: was a case that they suspected as being suicide. But 703 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: yet he was there. He was physically in the autopsy suite. 704 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: He made his own observations in that environment. But he 705 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: was not there in an unofficial capacity representing the state. 706 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: He was representing the family. And in this particular case, 707 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,280 Speaker 1: we're talking not about a case that is involving a suicide. 708 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,720 Speaker 1: We're talking about a criminal case where you have these 709 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: delicate tests that are having to be done. This is 710 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: not like an autopsy. That's very don't give me, don't 711 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: mistake me. Autopsies are delicate, all right, But when you're 712 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:44,320 Speaker 1: talking about dealing with microscopic evidence and a molecular evidence 713 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: to put a finer point on it. You don't want 714 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: any distractions. There's too much resting on this. I'm Joseph 715 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.