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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Imagine you're at a cocktail party and you're getting

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Speaker 1: to know someone new. You've just asked the stranger's name

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Speaker 1: and where they're from. What's the next question out of

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Speaker 1: your mouth? Did you try to learn more about this person?

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Speaker 1: If you're like most people, you might have thought to ask, so,

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Speaker 1: what do you do? And you probably didn't mean that

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Speaker 1: question as in what do you do for fun? Or

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Speaker 1: what do you do to relax? Or what do you

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Speaker 1: do when you want to feel happier? You probably meant

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Speaker 1: that query to imply what do you do for work?

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Speaker 1: And we asked this question because, at least implicitly, we

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Speaker 1: think our jobs kind of matter for who we are,

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Speaker 1: and not just because being a doctor or a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: or a teacher or a podcaster helps us put food

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Speaker 1: on the table. These days, we often think of our

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Speaker 1: jobs not just as a means to an end, but

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Speaker 1: as a deep reflection of who we are. More and more,

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Speaker 1: our work identities wind up taking center stage as a

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Speaker 1: fundamental part of our identities of how we think of

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Speaker 1: ourselves as people. And lately, especially as I've been navigating

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Speaker 1: my own sense of burnout and overwhelm, I've been wondering

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Speaker 1: is this conception of our jobs actually a good thing?

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Speaker 1: Do we really want our work selves to be the

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Speaker 1: main character in our lives? So in this installment of

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Speaker 1: our special New Year season of the Happiness Lab, we'll

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Speaker 1: be exploring what our wise inner voices might be quietly

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Speaker 1: trying to tell us about our relationship with work, and

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Speaker 1: whether it's finally time to gently reevaluate the identity we

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Speaker 1: get from what we do. Our minds are constantly telling

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Speaker 1: us what to do to be happy. But what if

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Speaker 1: our minds are wrong, What if our minds are lying

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Speaker 1: to us, leading us away from what we'll really make

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Speaker 1: us happy. The good news, the understanding the science of

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Speaker 1: the mind can point us all back in the right direction.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santos.

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Speaker 1: There's this narrative that we should keep searching and never settle,

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Speaker 1: and if your job isn't perfect, then there's something wrong

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Speaker 1: and you should keep looking for a new one. And

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Speaker 1: it creates massive expectations and also is dangerous. This is

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Speaker 1: author an overworked expert. Simony stalls off. Simony is no

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Speaker 1: stranger to the question of how work fits into our identities.

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Speaker 1: In fact, it's a worry he's been personally trying to

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Speaker 1: navigate for over a decade. I was a twenty two

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Speaker 1: year old at the University of Pennsylvania. I was studying

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Speaker 1: poetry and economics, and so from an early age there

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Speaker 1: was already this tension between the pursuit of art and

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Speaker 1: the pursuit of commerce. And I got the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: interview my favorite writer in the entire world. He's this

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Speaker 1: poet named a niece Mojgani. He's actually the current Poet

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Speaker 1: Laureate of the State of Oregon. And I was so

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Speaker 1: excited for this interview, and I wanted a niece to

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Speaker 1: give me a pep talk, you know. Here, I was

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Speaker 1: this twenty two year old young poetry student about to

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Speaker 1: embark on an unknown future, and I wanted him to

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Speaker 1: give me that voter confidence to pursue something that I love.

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Speaker 1: And so I asked him, how do you feel about

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Speaker 1: the mantra love what you do and never work a

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Speaker 1: day in your life? And he said something that really

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Speaker 1: surprised me and has stuck with me since. He said,

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Speaker 1: some people love what they do, and other people do

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Speaker 1: what they have to do so that they can do

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Speaker 1: what they love. When they're not working, and neither is

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Speaker 1: more noble. And I think that last part is key.

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Speaker 1: We love to revere people whose identities and their jobs

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Speaker 1: neatly aligned. But I think a niece's wisdom was telling

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Speaker 1: me that the other side of the equation, treating a

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Speaker 1: job as a means to an end, is no less noble.

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Speaker 1: It's nothing to fear being the young naive college student

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Speaker 1: that I was. I sort of did not heed his

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Speaker 1: advice and spent my entire twenties looking for that vocational soulmate,

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Speaker 1: looking for that job that would help me self actualize.

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Speaker 1: And so I worked in advertising, and I worked in tech,

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Speaker 1: and I worked in food, and I worked in journalism,

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Speaker 1: all the while looking for this perfect job that will

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Speaker 1: help me become the fullest version of myself. Eventually, Simony

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Speaker 1: searched for his sacred calling came to a head. He

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Speaker 1: found himself at a career crossroads when he was forced

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Speaker 1: to choose between a long term gig as a journalist

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Speaker 1: at a trendy magazine and a higher paying role at

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Speaker 1: a design firm. The decision fell overwhelming. But the thing

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Speaker 1: that I realized in that moment is it didn't feel

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Speaker 1: like I was choosing between two jobs as much as

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Speaker 1: I was choosing between two versions of me, And so

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Speaker 1: that was sort of the first kind of colonel that

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Speaker 1: put the wheels in motion for the book is understanding

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Speaker 1: sort of how did we get here? How did jobs

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Speaker 1: become synonymous with our identity for so many people and

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Speaker 1: so many Americans in particular. Simony's upcoming book is entitled

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Speaker 1: The Good Enough Job, Reclaiming Life from Work. The book

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Speaker 1: explores how we've gotten so wrapped up and thinking about

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Speaker 1: work is a deep part of our identity, as an

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Speaker 1: almost sacred calling. But the book argues that the concept

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Speaker 1: that our job should be the main characters in our

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Speaker 1: lives is actually quite new. In fact, it's only been

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Speaker 1: around for a generation or so. So my grandmother, for example,

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Speaker 1: lives in a small town in Italy. She had five children.

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Speaker 1: They all lived in that same small town growing up.

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Speaker 1: And my grandma worked in a coffee shop, and she

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Speaker 1: has this kind of single bulbous by set from pulling

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Speaker 1: down the manual lover at the coffee shop. And her

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Speaker 1: identity was pretty straightforward. First she was a woman of faith,

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Speaker 1: a woman of God, and then she was a mother,

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Speaker 1: a fresh pasta maker, and her job was important to her,

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Speaker 1: but it was very much a means to an end.

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Speaker 1: And then my generation, you know, I'm probably smack in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the millennial generation. We were raised with

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Speaker 1: certain scripts that jobs should be calling's. Jobs should be

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Speaker 1: something where that you can find that you can do

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Speaker 1: what you love. And so I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people among my peer group have been searching for work

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Speaker 1: as a means of self actualization, as a way to

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Speaker 1: make themselves whole, and looking for a vocational soulmate that

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Speaker 1: can deliver on that promise. And I think it actually

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Speaker 1: sets us up for a lot of disappointment. So this

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Speaker 1: is a phenomena that you've described as WORKSM. How would

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Speaker 1: you define WORKSM? Yeah, so, workism is a term that

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Speaker 1: was originally coined by a colleague of mine named Derek Thompson,

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Speaker 1: who's a journalist for The Atlantic, And the idea is

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Speaker 1: that work has become akin to a religious identity. It's

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Speaker 1: something that people look to not just for a paycheck,

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Speaker 1: but for a community sort of purpose and meaning and

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Speaker 1: a way of making a difference in the world. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: this can be a good or bad thing, depending on

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Speaker 1: sort of what stage you are life and how diverse

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Speaker 1: your meaning making and identity portfolios are. But the danger

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Speaker 1: of workism is a fu fold. The first is when

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Speaker 1: you have a work centric existence, you can neglect other

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Speaker 1: aspects of who you are. The psychologist Esther Perel has

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Speaker 1: this great phrase that she says, too many of us

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Speaker 1: bring the best of ourselves to work and then bring

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Speaker 1: the leftovers home. A job is not something that is

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Speaker 1: always in your control. You know. This is something that

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Speaker 1: we have very much seen recently with the pandemic and

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Speaker 1: furloughs and people losing their jobs for one reason or another.

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Speaker 1: If your job is your sole source of community, is

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Speaker 1: your sole source of identity, and you lose that job,

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Speaker 1: it can really send you for an existential loop. So

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Speaker 1: this idea of workism is so powerful nowadays. But you've

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Speaker 1: argued that this is like a recent phenomenon. Talk about

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Speaker 1: some of the historic trends that got us here. So

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Speaker 1: if you think about the history of the United States,

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Speaker 1: capitalism and the Protestant work are really the two strands

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Speaker 1: that entwined to form our countries DNA. So you can

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Speaker 1: sort of trace a line from those early days of

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Speaker 1: our country foundation to our current culture where what do

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Speaker 1: you do is often the first question people ask each

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Speaker 1: other when they meet. But there are also some of

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Speaker 1: these social and economic and political and cultural trends that

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Speaker 1: are more recent that has made workism particularly apparent in

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Speaker 1: the last say fifty years in the US. You know,

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Speaker 1: for the majority of the twentyth century, the average working

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Speaker 1: time was declining for all workers and developed countries. This

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Speaker 1: makes sense, you know, as countries and individuals become more wealthy,

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Speaker 1: they can afford to work less. But as the twentieth

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Speaker 1: century progressed, the technological trends and innovation continued, but certain

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Speaker 1: subsets of Americans started working more than ever. And so

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Speaker 1: the question is why how have our peer nations continued

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Speaker 1: to decline in the average time they spend working while

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Speaker 1: some Americans are working more than ever. So there's no

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Speaker 1: sort of single explanation. There are many different possible ways

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Speaker 1: to slice it. One is the decline of other sources

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Speaker 1: of meaning and identity in people's lives. So if you

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Speaker 1: think about things like organized religion. At the peak of

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Speaker 1: religiosity in the United States in nineteen fifties, over nine

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Speaker 1: out of every ten Americans associated with some sort of

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Speaker 1: organized religion. But in the last thirty years you've seen

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Speaker 1: a precipitous decline where now almost one in three Americans

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Speaker 1: do not affiliate with the religion, And so now the

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Speaker 1: world that religion once had in our lives is no

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Speaker 1: longer there for a lot of people. But the desire

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Speaker 1: for belonging, for community, for a sense of purpose larger

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Speaker 1: than themselves still exists. So that's one explanation. Another is

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Speaker 1: just the way that our political system is set up

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Speaker 1: in the United States. One of the reasons why our

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Speaker 1: relationship to work is so fraught is because the consequences

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Speaker 1: of losing work in the US is so dire when

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Speaker 1: when healthcare, for example, is often tied to people's full

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Speaker 1: time jobs. And the last thing that I'd like to

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Speaker 1: call out is the kind of cultural factors. And so

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Speaker 1: in the US in particular, we have this very individualistic

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Speaker 1: society where we've idolized businesses and CEOs have become celebrities,

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Speaker 1: and we sort of valorize these side hustles and side grinds,

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Speaker 1: and you know, work is one part and parcel with

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Speaker 1: our identities, and a lot of this is getting even

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Speaker 1: worse as so many of us are working from home

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Speaker 1: now or engaging in hybrid work. This idea that the

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Speaker 1: culture is telling us work is our sacred duty. It

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Speaker 1: becomes even harder to separate yourself from that sacred duty

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Speaker 1: when the sacred duty is all around you all the time, right.

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Speaker 1: You know, part of the problem when you frame work

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Speaker 1: as a sacred duty or a sacrifice is that the

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Speaker 1: more you sacrifice for your job, the holier your work becomes,

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Speaker 1: and so those long hours are further idolized and seen

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Speaker 1: as something to pat workers on the back, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to viewing them as problems or things that deserve structural interventions.

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Speaker 1: This is the time of year that we get so

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Speaker 1: focused on our jobs, well, how we can do better

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Speaker 1: in our jobs? You know, what productivity app could we

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Speaker 1: download to do better, or even rethinking whether or not

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Speaker 1: we have the right relationship with our jobs. But often

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Speaker 1: we don't turn to our inner value system to really

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Speaker 1: think about what we should be doing. Why is that

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Speaker 1: a problem? A job is just one part of who

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Speaker 1: we are, but not the entirety of our lives. And

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Speaker 1: I think if we are solely looking through the lens

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Speaker 1: of our professionalize to determine our well being, it's easy

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Speaker 1: to neglect those other aspects of ourselves and it's easy

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Speaker 1: to mistake a job or professional success as this silver

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Speaker 1: bullet that will make the rest of our lives fall

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Speaker 1: in place. I can't tell you how many people I

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Speaker 1: interviewed for the book who have achieved levels of personal

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Speaker 1: success and have still felt unfulfilled. And so one piece

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Speaker 1: of advice that I might give as you think about

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Speaker 1: your goal setting and your resolutions and what the next

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Speaker 1: year might bring, is what are some ways that you

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Speaker 1: can invest in the other aspects of your life, whether

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Speaker 1: it's your relationships, whether it's your inner spiritual life, whether

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Speaker 1: it's your family or your hobbies, or your means of

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Speaker 1: feeling whole outside of work that also could use a

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Speaker 1: little bit more love and attention in this next year.

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Speaker 1: We usually assume that having careers that give us meaning

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Speaker 1: is a good thing, that being passionate about our jobs

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Speaker 1: is something to strive for. But when we get back

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Speaker 1: from the break, we'll see that there are some real

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Speaker 1: downsides to thinking about our jobs as the most meaningful

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Speaker 1: part of our lives. We'll hear about some of these

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Speaker 1: surprising psychological costs when the happiness sad returns in a moment.

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Speaker 1: Author Simony stalls Off has written an entire book about

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Speaker 1: the psychological costs of investing too much in your work,

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Speaker 1: But he also experienced the pain that comes from those

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Speaker 1: costs personally. When he made the hard decision a few

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Speaker 1: years ago to abandon his career as a journalist, I

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Speaker 1: felt guilty. I felt that I was sort of abandoning

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Speaker 1: a calling. And democracy dies in darkness? And what am

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Speaker 1: I doing turning off one more light in the room?

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Speaker 1: And will my colleagues and my co workers ever forgive me?

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Speaker 1: Will I ever be able to publish ever again? And

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Speaker 1: I think that black and MTE thinking can be really

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Speaker 1: damaging to people when they think that their jobs and

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Speaker 1: their career decisions take such a taxing toll on themselves

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Speaker 1: and their identities that it begins to spill into their

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Speaker 1: life outside of work as well. And it's not just

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Speaker 1: the idea of guilt and sort of experiencing guilt. Even

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Speaker 1: when you stick with your job, there are high rates

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Speaker 1: of things like burnout and stress too, right, Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think this is particularly true in jobs that are

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Speaker 1: a flection of your identity. I'll speak to journalism just

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Speaker 1: because it's the field that I know best. Your worth

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Speaker 1: and your self worth are directly tied to your output,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the ways I used to obsessively

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Speaker 1: check the reader numbers on the articles I would publish

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Speaker 1: to see the impact or see the difference that I

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Speaker 1: was making. But when you rise and fall with your

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Speaker 1: output and your productivity, it can be very precarious. It

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Speaker 1: can put you on an emotional roller coaster. It can

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Speaker 1: keep you from being able to set boundaries around when

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Speaker 1: you are and you're not working, and in a very

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Speaker 1: individualistic culture, can push people to the point where they're

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Speaker 1: not actually being more productive. They're not actually being the

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Speaker 1: effective workers that they want to be, but they're sort

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Speaker 1: of caught in this loop where the lack of productivity

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Speaker 1: pushes them to work even further, which pushes them to

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Speaker 1: be less productive and ultimately drives people to burnout. And

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Speaker 1: that burnout also comes with physical consequences to like consequences

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Speaker 1: for your body. Certainly, I love the example of being

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Speaker 1: able to rest before you need it, because often what

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Speaker 1: happens is we sort of push the buck down the

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Speaker 1: road and we think, Okay, I'll rest once I finish

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Speaker 1: this last article, once I finish this last report, once

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Speaker 1: I make this title or make this bonus at the

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Speaker 1: end of the year. But what happens when we burn

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Speaker 1: out is then we can't work at all. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's this sort of mental game that we play with

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Speaker 1: ourselves that Okay, when this happens, then I'll be able

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Speaker 1: to rest, when in fact, having a more sustainable, balanced

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Speaker 1: approach to productivity to work is actually what makes us

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Speaker 1: more productive and effective workers in the long term. It

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Speaker 1: also makes us better humans and better social companions. To

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the social costs of overwork

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Speaker 1: and having your identity be too kind of infused with

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Speaker 1: your job, I think one really important thing to remember

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Speaker 1: is that a work centric existence doesn't just take our

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Speaker 1: best time, but it often takes our best energy too.

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Speaker 1: And similar to an investor who might want to diversify

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Speaker 1: the sources of their investments to be more resilient, to

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Speaker 1: have a more balanced portfolio, we too benefit when we

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Speaker 1: have a diversified identity, when we have distinct sources of

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Speaker 1: meaning in our life. But if we're spending all of

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Speaker 1: our time working, if we're spending all of our energy

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Speaker 1: focused on our professional goals, we can neglect these other

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Speaker 1: aspects of who we are. And so in thinking about that,

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Speaker 1: I really advise people to do two things. One is

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Speaker 1: to make sure that they're carving out time and space

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Speaker 1: in order to focus on non work pursuits, and the

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Speaker 1: second is to act to actively do things. There's this

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Speaker 1: phrase that I love from the Alcoholics Anonymous literature, and

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Speaker 1: the paraphrase it's that we can't think ourselves into better action,

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Speaker 1: but we can act ourselves into better ways of thinking.

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Speaker 1: And so if we want to diversify our identity, if

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Speaker 1: we want to diversify the sources of meaning in our life,

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Speaker 1: we actively have to do things that reinforce that identity

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Speaker 1: through our actions and also through the social communities that

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Speaker 1: we create around them. Another problem with taking action to

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Speaker 1: kind of diversify our senses of meaning, and I've experienced

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Speaker 1: this myself, is that you kind of wind up in

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Speaker 1: this interesting chicken and egg problem. Right, so you start

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Speaker 1: working all the time, and then you're kind of exhausted

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Speaker 1: and that you don't know what to do when you're

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Speaker 1: not working, or you haven't invested in the friendships or

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Speaker 1: the kind of activities that you do outside of work,

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Speaker 1: and then you don't know what to do when you're

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Speaker 1: out of work. So then you just work some more,

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Speaker 1: and then the cycle gets worse and worse, like to

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Speaker 1: the point that we almost don't even know who we

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Speaker 1: are when we're not working. Yeah, I mean it's so

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Speaker 1: relatable in those days where you're just exhausted and all

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Speaker 1: you want to do is turn on Netflix because it

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Speaker 1: feels like all your brain has the capacity to do

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Speaker 1: in that moment, and nothing against Netflix. It can be

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Speaker 1: a great way to turn the brain off. But it's

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Speaker 1: through those active forms of recreation and leisure that we're

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Speaker 1: able to really derive more meaning from our non work pursuits.

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Speaker 1: And this is something that you've talked about in terms

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Speaker 1: of taking a more active role in the kinds of

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Speaker 1: things we value so that we're not just like inheriting

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Speaker 1: the life values that exist around us, so that come

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Speaker 1: from our job, but it's like figuring out the things

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Speaker 1: that give us value outside of our productivity. After over

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Speaker 1: two years of reporting and talking to so many individuals,

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Speaker 1: I think that work is just one container in our lives.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's obviously a container for the work that

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Speaker 1: we do, it's a container for an identity. It comes

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Speaker 1: with a certain value system of what the workplace measures

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Speaker 1: or values, and it can be a great source of

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Speaker 1: meaning and identity and purpose. But I think it's dangerous

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Speaker 1: when it's the only one. So one of the solutions

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Speaker 1: you've come up with this this idea of this good

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Speaker 1: enough job. So what is a good enough job? And

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Speaker 1: how does it help us kind of protect our values

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Speaker 1: from getting too caught up in work? Prinsipally, a good

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Speaker 1: enough job is a job that allows you to be

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Speaker 1: the person you want to be. What I like about

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Speaker 1: the framework is that it's subjective. Maybe it's a certain

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Speaker 1: amount of income, maybe it's a certain job title. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it's a job and a certain industry, or a job

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Speaker 1: that gets off at a certain hour that lets you

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Speaker 1: pick up your kids from school. Whatever good enough is

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Speaker 1: to you, I urge you to recognize once you have it,

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Speaker 1: because then you can convert some of that energy that

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Speaker 1: you might be spending questioning, oh, is this the perfect job?

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Speaker 1: Is this the dream job? Is this my vocational soulmate?

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Speaker 1: Into two things? One, an appreciation for the role work

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Speaker 1: plays in your life, first and foremost, that it allows

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Speaker 1: you to live and second into your life outside of work,

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Speaker 1: and ways in which you might be able to invest

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Speaker 1: in yourself, in your relationships in your community. That can

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Speaker 1: also be a source of identity and meaning for you.

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Speaker 1: Simone's advice of downsizing to a good enough job and

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Speaker 1: investing more energy in your relationships, health, and community may

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Speaker 1: sound like an amazing idea and principle, but in practice,

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Speaker 1: renegotiating a healthier relationship with your job can be hard,

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Speaker 1: especially when you've been caught up in that cultural work

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Speaker 1: is m for a long time. So when we get

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Speaker 1: back from the break, we'll learn about some specific practices

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Speaker 1: we can all use to reevaluate the role that our

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Speaker 1: career plays in our lives. We'll see that there are

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Speaker 1: strategies that every one of us can use to better

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Speaker 1: align our values with our identities, both inside and outside

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Speaker 1: of the office. The happiness Lab will be right back

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Speaker 1: overwork experts. Simone stalls Off thinks that many of us

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Speaker 1: would be happier if we took some concrete steps towards

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Speaker 1: reevaluating the role that work plays in our lives, and

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Speaker 1: the first step he recommends involves being more intentional about

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Speaker 1: how we use the time we spend away from our jobs.

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Speaker 1: I think the idea of setting up non work time

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Speaker 1: is trying to create infrastructure around our non work time,

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Speaker 1: as a religious institution might create infrastructure around worship or prayer.

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Speaker 1: One of the benefits of say going to a yoga

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Speaker 1: class or going on a run is their activities that

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Speaker 1: structurally prevent us from working. I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: times the pieces of anti burnout advice that we hear

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Speaker 1: like set a boundary. The problem with it is that

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Speaker 1: personal interventions inevitably break you know, I definitely thought this

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Speaker 1: even in the writing of the book. I was writing

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Speaker 1: a book about how to sort of right size worksplace

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Speaker 1: in our life and develop a healthier relationship to work.

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Speaker 1: And yet the looming deadline of trying to get the

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Speaker 1: manuscript done pushed me to open up the laptop on

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Speaker 1: the weekends when I vowed that I wouldn't be working

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Speaker 1: at all. And so the idea of kind of setting

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Speaker 1: up this intentional space is really to make sure that

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Speaker 1: we have this sacred space, is sacred time in order

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Speaker 1: to do things other than work. One small anecdote from

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Speaker 1: one of the psychologists that I interviewed. Often what she

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Speaker 1: sees when she suggests practices like setting up intentional space

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Speaker 1: for non work activities is that they want to sign

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Speaker 1: up for a marathon or for an iron Man, or

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Speaker 1: to try and turn their leisure into another form of work,

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Speaker 1: and what she often advises them is to start small,

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Speaker 1: like how about a job? And I think that piece

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Speaker 1: of advice is really resonant, you know, instead of having

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Speaker 1: to think about, Okay, what do I want this identity

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Speaker 1: of mine to be and what is my six month

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Speaker 1: plan for achieving it, just start by taking small steps.

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Speaker 1: And this gets to another practice you strongly suggest in

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Speaker 1: the book, which is this idea that we have to

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Speaker 1: get out of the optimization mindset. Generally, all the patterns

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Speaker 1: we experience and work like wind up getting us to

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Speaker 1: optimize every single second, and it can be easy to

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Speaker 1: start to try to do the exact same thing when

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Speaker 1: we're dealing with our leisure. But the whole idea is

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Speaker 1: to kind of move ourselves worth away from being productive

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Speaker 1: even when it comes to our leisure. Yeah. I think

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Speaker 1: one great antidote to people who have a natural tendency

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Speaker 1: to optimize is something you've talked about a lot on

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Speaker 1: the podcast already, which is the value of play. And

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Speaker 1: one thing that I like about play is that it's

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Speaker 1: grounded not in future achievement or success, but present moment

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Speaker 1: awareness and whether that play is jamming if you like

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Speaker 1: to play music, or dancing if you like to dance,

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Speaker 1: or free writing if you like to write, or playing

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Speaker 1: a board game, or doing something that isn't a means

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Speaker 1: to another end but actually it's an end and out

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Speaker 1: of itself is a great way to serve as a

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Speaker 1: counterbalance to our natural tendency to try and find a

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Speaker 1: productivity of every moment of our day. And this connects

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Speaker 1: to another practice you've really suggested, which is this idea

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Speaker 1: of you know, if we're investing in the jamming or

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Speaker 1: the d saying and so on, we also are just

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Speaker 1: generally investing in multiple different kinds of identities. Have you

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Speaker 1: also tried to invest in multiple different non work identities.

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Speaker 1: How's that gone for you, especially as you've been busy

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Speaker 1: writing the book and so on. Yeah, So, as I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: I think work really can function as a container. But

435
00:25:26,916 --> 00:25:31,396
Speaker 1: I think the value investing in other containers is that

436
00:25:31,916 --> 00:25:35,596
Speaker 1: they help us as individuals see that our purpose on

437
00:25:35,596 --> 00:25:39,276
Speaker 1: this earth is not just to produce economic value. So,

438
00:25:39,356 --> 00:25:42,556
Speaker 1: for example, one way that I have diversified my own

439
00:25:42,596 --> 00:25:46,156
Speaker 1: identity is I play on an ultimate frisbee team. I

440
00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:49,436
Speaker 1: know I'm not doing much to dispel the lanky California

441
00:25:49,636 --> 00:25:52,716
Speaker 1: stereotype here. But one thing that I really appreciate about

442
00:25:52,716 --> 00:25:56,076
Speaker 1: the team is that on the team, people don't care

443
00:25:56,276 --> 00:26:00,796
Speaker 1: about the last performance review or how many pages or

444
00:26:00,836 --> 00:26:04,476
Speaker 1: words I've written that day. My identity on the team

445
00:26:05,156 --> 00:26:09,836
Speaker 1: is completely decoupled from my identity as a work and

446
00:26:10,116 --> 00:26:13,476
Speaker 1: that can be a really generative space for me to

447
00:26:13,516 --> 00:26:17,156
Speaker 1: be able to inhabit where the goals of our team

448
00:26:17,196 --> 00:26:21,516
Speaker 1: are not tied to our economic output. I have to

449
00:26:21,556 --> 00:26:25,516
Speaker 1: show up as someone who plays my particular position and

450
00:26:25,596 --> 00:26:29,996
Speaker 1: supports my teammates, but they're not asking me about sort

451
00:26:30,036 --> 00:26:32,236
Speaker 1: of the things that might be sources of stress or

452
00:26:32,276 --> 00:26:34,756
Speaker 1: anxiety throughout the day. And I think the more of

453
00:26:34,796 --> 00:26:37,676
Speaker 1: these containers that we have in our lives, the more

454
00:26:37,676 --> 00:26:41,036
Speaker 1: well rounded we are, the more resilient we are in

455
00:26:41,076 --> 00:26:45,076
Speaker 1: the face of adversity, and ultimately, the more developed we

456
00:26:45,116 --> 00:26:48,116
Speaker 1: are in the multiple interests each of us have. The

457
00:26:48,236 --> 00:26:51,116
Speaker 1: final practice you suggest is a bit more reflective. It's

458
00:26:51,156 --> 00:26:54,156
Speaker 1: this idea of defining what we want our work to

459
00:26:54,276 --> 00:26:56,276
Speaker 1: be because we're not usually the ones that get to

460
00:26:56,316 --> 00:26:58,596
Speaker 1: define that, right, you know, talk about where that definition

461
00:26:58,716 --> 00:27:01,996
Speaker 1: usually comes from for many of us. Unless we define

462
00:27:02,076 --> 00:27:05,396
Speaker 1: for ourselves what we want our relationship to work to be,

463
00:27:05,756 --> 00:27:09,156
Speaker 1: our employer will happily do it for us. And so

464
00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:12,236
Speaker 1: one of the benefits of putting a stake in the

465
00:27:12,276 --> 00:27:15,796
Speaker 1: ground and saying, Okay, this is what I want my

466
00:27:15,876 --> 00:27:18,676
Speaker 1: relationship to work to be is it allows us to

467
00:27:18,676 --> 00:27:22,556
Speaker 1: fall back on those values. It allows us to really

468
00:27:22,636 --> 00:27:26,796
Speaker 1: understand who we are outside of work, and how work

469
00:27:26,916 --> 00:27:30,556
Speaker 1: can serve our vision of a life well lived, as

470
00:27:30,556 --> 00:27:34,156
Speaker 1: opposed to being the central axis around which the rest

471
00:27:34,156 --> 00:27:36,836
Speaker 1: of our life orbits. And so part of the goal

472
00:27:36,876 --> 00:27:38,516
Speaker 1: of the book is to kind of help you put

473
00:27:38,516 --> 00:27:42,276
Speaker 1: all of these different tips into practice yourself. And even

474
00:27:42,276 --> 00:27:44,916
Speaker 1: though I'm sure it's pretty hard, I'm curious if kind

475
00:27:44,916 --> 00:27:47,636
Speaker 1: of adopting all of these strategies has helped you, you know,

476
00:27:47,716 --> 00:27:49,676
Speaker 1: even in the context of writing a book, which is

477
00:27:49,756 --> 00:27:53,316
Speaker 1: pretty hard and pretty kind of productivity focused activity. It's

478
00:27:53,436 --> 00:27:56,916
Speaker 1: an interesting place to be in now because I finish

479
00:27:56,956 --> 00:27:59,756
Speaker 1: the book. There are no more words left to be written,

480
00:28:00,396 --> 00:28:05,476
Speaker 1: and it feels bittersweet. I am letting go of this

481
00:28:05,596 --> 00:28:09,596
Speaker 1: project that I've tinkered with for more than two years

482
00:28:09,676 --> 00:28:14,156
Speaker 1: and had something to be an anchor for my attention

483
00:28:14,316 --> 00:28:18,756
Speaker 1: as I go through my working days. And now I

484
00:28:18,796 --> 00:28:21,756
Speaker 1: have to eat some of my own dog food. I

485
00:28:21,756 --> 00:28:25,076
Speaker 1: have to practice, but I preach by trying to find

486
00:28:25,156 --> 00:28:29,956
Speaker 1: other sources of identity and meaning outside of the dopamine

487
00:28:29,996 --> 00:28:33,396
Speaker 1: hit that I get when I reach my self imposed goals.

488
00:28:33,876 --> 00:28:36,636
Speaker 1: And one other big change that I made recently is

489
00:28:36,676 --> 00:28:41,356
Speaker 1: I started working for myself and it's a really interesting

490
00:28:41,516 --> 00:28:45,836
Speaker 1: moment for me personally, where now I no longer have

491
00:28:46,116 --> 00:28:49,916
Speaker 1: that employer prioritizing my weeks. I no longer have a

492
00:28:49,956 --> 00:28:53,396
Speaker 1: manager telling me, Okay, this is what's important for you

493
00:28:53,556 --> 00:28:56,716
Speaker 1: to be working on, and I have to do some

494
00:28:56,836 --> 00:29:00,476
Speaker 1: of that work myself, and part of that means knowing

495
00:29:00,636 --> 00:29:06,356
Speaker 1: when to stop, because, as I'm sure any freelancer someone

496
00:29:06,436 --> 00:29:10,156
Speaker 1: who has done a personal project knows, there is an

497
00:29:10,236 --> 00:29:14,796
Speaker 1: infinite capacity of more work that we can do. One

498
00:29:14,836 --> 00:29:18,396
Speaker 1: of my mentors and someone that I interviewed for the

499
00:29:18,436 --> 00:29:22,276
Speaker 1: book is this religious scholar named Casper to Kyle, and

500
00:29:22,516 --> 00:29:24,956
Speaker 1: every Friday, at the end of the week, he sends

501
00:29:24,996 --> 00:29:27,396
Speaker 1: out the same tweet, which is a great source of

502
00:29:27,396 --> 00:29:31,276
Speaker 1: inspiration for me. And every Friday he says, the work

503
00:29:31,396 --> 00:29:34,436
Speaker 1: is not done, but it is time to stop. And

504
00:29:34,516 --> 00:29:37,036
Speaker 1: that is sort of a personal mantra that I've adopted

505
00:29:37,076 --> 00:29:39,916
Speaker 1: in my own life, and I hope that you might too.

506
00:29:41,396 --> 00:29:43,516
Speaker 1: I hope my chat with Simony has convinced you that

507
00:29:43,596 --> 00:29:45,316
Speaker 1: it may be time to listen to what your inner

508
00:29:45,356 --> 00:29:47,396
Speaker 1: voice is telling you about work in the new year.

509
00:29:47,716 --> 00:29:50,716
Speaker 1: As Simony eloquently put it in his book, our desks

510
00:29:50,796 --> 00:29:53,516
Speaker 1: were never meant to be our altars. I share his

511
00:29:53,596 --> 00:29:55,916
Speaker 1: hope that with the right strategies, we can all begin

512
00:29:55,956 --> 00:29:58,636
Speaker 1: to develop a healthier relationship with what we do for

513
00:29:58,676 --> 00:30:01,236
Speaker 1: a living. So if what you heard in this episode

514
00:30:01,276 --> 00:30:03,876
Speaker 1: hit a nerve, you can start by just gently asking

515
00:30:03,916 --> 00:30:06,556
Speaker 1: some questions about the identity you get from your job.

516
00:30:07,396 --> 00:30:09,436
Speaker 1: Are you treating your career as a kind of moral

517
00:30:09,476 --> 00:30:12,996
Speaker 1: good in ways that leave you overstressed, overtired, and burned out.

518
00:30:13,716 --> 00:30:16,156
Speaker 1: Is your business at work covering up a deeper sense

519
00:30:16,196 --> 00:30:19,796
Speaker 1: of emptiness with what you do outside the office. If so,

520
00:30:20,156 --> 00:30:22,676
Speaker 1: maybe this is a year to start renegotiating the role

521
00:30:22,716 --> 00:30:25,116
Speaker 1: that work plays in your life. Maybe this is the

522
00:30:25,196 --> 00:30:27,596
Speaker 1: year to get more intentional about the effort and energy

523
00:30:27,636 --> 00:30:31,036
Speaker 1: you give to your non work pursuits. You two can

524
00:30:31,036 --> 00:30:33,916
Speaker 1: take the steps needed to deprioritize work a little in

525
00:30:34,036 --> 00:30:39,156
Speaker 1: order to prioritize life. Next week, We'll continue our requests

526
00:30:39,196 --> 00:30:41,636
Speaker 1: to hear what our wise inner voices may be telling us,

527
00:30:41,996 --> 00:30:44,596
Speaker 1: and we'll do that by finding ways to intentionally seek

528
00:30:44,636 --> 00:30:46,836
Speaker 1: out something that many of us have been missing out

529
00:30:46,876 --> 00:30:51,836
Speaker 1: on silence. We'll hear why quieting our mental and environmental

530
00:30:51,916 --> 00:30:54,516
Speaker 1: noise can be so essential for our well being, and

531
00:30:54,556 --> 00:30:56,796
Speaker 1: we'll learn some practical steps we can all take to

532
00:30:56,836 --> 00:31:01,156
Speaker 1: get there, even in an ever louder world. So I

533
00:31:01,196 --> 00:31:03,716
Speaker 1: hope you'll join me next week for the final installment

534
00:31:03,796 --> 00:31:06,356
Speaker 1: of this special New Year's season of The Happiness Lab

535
00:31:06,436 --> 00:31:13,036
Speaker 1: with me Doctor Laurie Santos. The Happiness Lab is co

536
00:31:13,116 --> 00:31:16,196
Speaker 1: written by Ryan Dilley and is produced by Ryan Dilley

537
00:31:16,196 --> 00:31:19,596
Speaker 1: and Courtney Guerino. The show was mastered by Evan Viola

538
00:31:19,676 --> 00:31:23,396
Speaker 1: and our original music was composed by Zachary Silver. Special

539
00:31:23,396 --> 00:31:27,036
Speaker 1: thanks to Shane Beard, Greta Kone, Nicole Morano, Morgan Ratner,

540
00:31:27,156 --> 00:31:30,356
Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Jacob Weisberg, my agent, Ben Davis, and the

541
00:31:30,396 --> 00:31:33,036
Speaker 1: rest of the Pushkin team. The Happiness Lab is brought

542
00:31:33,076 --> 00:31:37,396
Speaker 1: to you by Pushkin Industries and by me, Doctor Laurie Santos,