1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Cleo, Hey man, can I get one donut for me 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: and my really thin gay friend? Sure, little lady, that'll 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: be three cents. Fuck, I only have two cents. I 4 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: guess I can't get my coffee a day. Listen. I'll 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: give you the coffee black like you like here, but 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: I can't give you the donut. What I can do 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: is this other older donut that's a little stale from 8 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: the floor. Perfect. Let me get my sketch pad. I 9 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: love sketching old stale food while drinking bo black coffee 10 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: and smoking cigarettes. And you know I support you in 11 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: your kind. But you can't sleep here on the counter 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: like you did last night. Fine, man, I'm gonna go 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 1: to Coney Island where they accept freaks like be okay, 14 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: all right, who's that knocking at the door. It's all 15 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 1: your friends, your filthy horse. Your husband's gone, and you've 16 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: got books on a bottle of wine to kill. It's books. 17 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: It's gossip. I'm shook. It's memoirs, Martini. Celebrity book Club. 18 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: Come read it while it's hot. Celebrity book Club, tell 19 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: your secrets. We won't talk celebrity books. No boys are alloud. 20 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: Celebrited book say it loud and cloud celebrity book club 21 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: buzz Man. I brought the queer foe Hey, best friend, 22 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: what's up you punk rocker? Um? Hello you really artsy 23 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: bleach blonde downtown A Jason hanging out Finn Finn Oh 24 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: sorry no, no, my super thin friend who is a 25 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: out and proud homosexual. Well, I'm sort of exploring my sexuality. 26 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: Thank you for acknowledging that and surfacing all of those ideas. Um, 27 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be with you here today inste A, 28 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: New York City, m hub of art, music, culture, geography, 29 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: seen writing, poetry, drug use, coffee. Yeah, it's a big 30 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: coffee center. First coffee drinking in New Amsterdam. The Dutch 31 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: they brought it over. Today's a big deal. Today's huge. 32 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: I don't even know if our listeners deserve this. It's 33 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: you guys do deserve it. Today's an insane day. We 34 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: have the most famous guest we've ever had, we've ever had. 35 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: We have the ultimate, Like I think we said when 36 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: we did the Bible. Yeah, you said God the ultimate celebrity, 37 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: and I was like, Okay, that's basically true. But then 38 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: I was like, well waiting, man, Uh, there's one, there's 39 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: like there's maybe you know, there's a handful of people 40 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: that are bigger celebrities. Yes, because God, you know, God 41 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: was He was the original celebrity. He was the original celebrity. 42 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: But like, there are bigger celebrities. Celebrities are huge celebrities. 43 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: You might even say, who is our God? Right? Right? 44 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: Who is the creator that endowed us to speak like this? Right? 45 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,679 Speaker 1: And some know her just by that first name. I'll 46 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 1: say it, Roz. I mean the original producer, the original, 47 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: the original booth bab, the producer of Frasier. Yeah, but no, 48 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: we are not talking about the booth Babe of Ros 49 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: or Frasier. We are talking about doctor Rosalind Kearney. My 50 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: mother is here in the studio with us today. We 51 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: welcome ros Thank you so much. I would like to 52 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: add to the God conversation that I am a goddess. Yeah, sorry, 53 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: god ess right, god woman. And she is an analyst, yes, 54 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: a license clinical social worker. No, a licensed psychologist. Okay, wait, 55 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: and that's better or not? It is better? You think 56 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: it's better. I have both social worker and a license 57 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: psychologist psychologist, But you're not? And are you a I 58 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: always forget are you an analyst. No, I'm not analyst 59 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: and not analyst. Okay, that the thing and this you know, 60 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: not to whatever degree, shame, but it's like, is it 61 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: the thing where it's like the more letters there are 62 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: in the degree they're kind of less valuable. It is. 63 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: It's like, well, no, that's when you have too many 64 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: pins in your heart. Oh, I see, because everybody's always 65 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: always like m M D A, P H D lcs 66 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: W and like trying to prove character for the whole alphabet. 67 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: At the end of your new time time to graduate. Yeah, yeah, 68 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: at some point you have to leave school. And you know, 69 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: as we you know, lived in Boston. I think a 70 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: lot of people you probably had a lot of patience 71 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: city of schools, City of schools. You could even be 72 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: a dissertation therapist because people could not stop researching. I 73 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: know a few people who might need that, who are 74 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: like they're addicted to doing dissertations, yes, or the research 75 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: for it. Right, you're never done conclusion and you never 76 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: start writing. You're so busy researching recusse. Then what do 77 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: you do if you can't research? Now? Ros you come 78 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: to us today as a therapist, as a mother, as 79 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: a resident of Cambridge, Utica and New York originally Brooklyn, 80 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: New York. Originally hailing from Brooklyn, New York, right by 81 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: the you know, the Prospect Park. But then and then, 82 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: but then you fled upstate when you're about five six six. 83 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: This was during the war. No, it was the reason 84 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: that Brooklyn went downhill. People really try to talk about 85 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: how the Dodgers left, but they forget to mention that 86 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: really what happened was that I left. They said, New 87 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: York is over, you know, it's not what it used 88 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: to be. But now we should announce the book that 89 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: we're doing today is one of your favorites. And you're 90 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: wearing the T shirt of the author. Describe what you're wearing. 91 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: I am wearing the T shirt of the iconic Patti Smith, 92 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: whom I have admired since birth. At the bottom of 93 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: my T shirt, she says, I think choosing any gender 94 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: is a drag. Now when did she say that, I 95 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: don't know. She just said it on my T shirt. So, 96 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: of course we read Patti Smith's book Just Kids, the famous, 97 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: you know. And by the way, I think we should 98 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: mention how the title came about is that she and 99 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: Maplethorpe were walking through Washington and this older couple were 100 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: staring at them, and the woman said to her husband, 101 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: take a photo. I think that they're artists. And the 102 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: husband said, oh, well, not really, he said, they're just kids. 103 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: She does struggle at first a little bit, when you know, 104 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: when her very good friend Maplethorpe uh starts to explore 105 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: his sexuality, she's all uncomfortable. I was surprised by that. 106 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: I guess I truly thought this whole book was about 107 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: just them being best friends. I didn't realize that they 108 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: were lovers. I don't know that she she struggled to 109 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: figure out how important it was because in certain ways, 110 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: in her words, she was kind of clueless. Yeah, I 111 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: think so, I know a lot of faghags. Yeah. I 112 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: think she wanted to be with him so bad. So 113 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: it was more like the heartbreak of and she was like, 114 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: oh no, I was like cool with gay people, but 115 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: like didn't want him to be gay, except she was 116 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: so in love with him. Do you think no, No, 117 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: I don't think so. I really think she wanted him 118 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: to be whatever he wanted to be. I think what 119 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: she struggled with was trying to understand it because she 120 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: felt so basically out to lunch. So you don't think 121 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: it was that she wanted him to want her sexually, 122 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: not anymore than he did. I think I think she 123 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: wanted a friend. I read the same book you did. No, 124 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: I know, no, And this is why we're here discussing. 125 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: We all, I guess come away with different thoughts because 126 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: the way she talks about them, it doesn't seem like 127 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: I guess to talk with her sexual religions. Well, she 128 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: doesn't describe their sex at all. There's no real like. 129 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: It's much more like, oh, you know, we were drawing 130 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: on the floor of our apartment where cuddly, we were crying. 131 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: He was always doing drugs while she was awake. Then 132 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: she was sobbing while he was awake, and it was 133 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: kind of like sobbing was her LSD. And well, I mean, 134 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: the other thing that shocked me when I reread this 135 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: book because I read it many years ago, was that 136 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: I didn't remember that she had had a child that 137 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: she gave up before she met him, So that was 138 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: a horrible, horrible experience for her. It sounded so, I mean, 139 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: she's and she's in Massachusetts, like, oh, she's in South Jersey. 140 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: Oh okay, she was at home. She was living at home, 141 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: and they sent her to like a wayward house for 142 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: bad girls. Yeah, she was like she was in the 143 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: neighborhood and the neighbor started noticing there and they were like, well, 144 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: you know, the neighbors were like starting to talk shit 145 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 1: about her and had been putting bringing shame to her family, 146 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: who had been quite accepting. Yeah. She had also found 147 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: someone who was willing to adopt the baby, a couple 148 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: of an artist couple in the area in New Jersey. Um, 149 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: so you know that was going to happen. But then 150 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, she had to go away from her home 151 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: once she started to really show and so and then 152 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: her parents actually took her to the to the hospital 153 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: to deliver the baby. The nurses were horrible to her, 154 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: so horrible to her, calling her names, leaving her she 155 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: was some pain, you know, leaving her on the table. 156 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,719 Speaker 1: Doctor was furious when he came. Man, you know, at 157 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: the nurses don't at her right, because it was it 158 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: was like something some term like, well she had she 159 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: had to have a Cisian section. Yeah. Um, and all 160 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: the nurses knew she was like out of war. They 161 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: weren't even paying attention. Yeah. Cool. They were just so 162 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: pissed that she was a whore and they were just like, oh, 163 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: you dumb slat, Like we're not even gonna like really 164 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: look into what your medical condition is, right exactly. So 165 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: how that relates to her beginning sexual relationship with Mablethorpe 166 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: is that she was embarrassed and worried about the scars 167 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: that she had from Thessian section. Right, the body keeps 168 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: the score. I mean, this was so this was this 169 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: was the sixties when she was the pregnancy, she was nineteen. Yeah, yeah, 170 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: but as she says in the book, pregnancy was synonymous 171 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: with marriage. There wasn't you know, there was no abortion, 172 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: There wasn't birth control. There wasn't that she had available 173 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: to her. I can't imagine. And then it's like an 174 00:10:57,960 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: you just move on, you're talking about it. But it's 175 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: like that was just happening all over the place, all 176 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: over the place, everywhere, So that her sadness and her 177 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: crying and so forth when she was with Maybelthorpe, I mean, 178 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: they went back and forth. It sounds like in terms 179 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: of one was up when was down, and so that 180 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: they were kind of there for each other. But a 181 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: lot of the sadness had to do with having to 182 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: give up this baby and then I feel like alter 183 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: her relationship it was much more of a companionship and 184 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: then being more like kindred spirits rather than like I think, yeah, 185 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: they did sleep together at some points, but that wasn't 186 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: like the main part, right. I think she just wanted 187 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: him to want her as like her number one soul mate. Yeah, 188 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: and more of the sadness that I feel like they 189 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: had this best friendship and then when he and then 190 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: he of course has so many issues and it's so 191 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: repressed where he like, start he does date that guy 192 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: and then he's like oh and then they date for 193 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: a while and then he breaks up and he's like, 194 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: oh no, that was that was a fluke. I'm let's 195 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: get back together. So she has his baby and Jersey, 196 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 1: and she moves to New York and to to make 197 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: it and do something. She wants to be artist. She's 198 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: read all these like these art books. She's been pouring 199 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: over Diego Rivera, fred Carlo Picasso. She loves the Picasso 200 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: at the at the Chica or the Philadelphia Art Museum. Yeah, 201 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: there's like a Picasso room and she's that she's taken 202 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: with and her father is like, oh, this is you know, 203 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: this is poppy cop, this is slop trap art and 204 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: she has that you know that first that first rebellion 205 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: against the parent where you're like, I like the thing 206 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: that they don't like. Therefore it's cool. Um, And she's like, 207 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: I gotta go to New York City and I feel 208 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: like she's like, now, let me ask something. Did you 209 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: guys ever have this? Did she ever come home? And 210 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: Lily was just like, I love this awesome new band, 211 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: the Misfifth the Dropkick Murphys, And you were like, what 212 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: you turn that cassette tape off? How about the sexual 213 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: violence and the rappid But she got so interested in 214 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: So it's kind of a quote of the only time 215 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: I ever remember you just turning it off was um. 216 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: And I think I was in fourth grade and you 217 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: were driving me to my fourth grade class, my small 218 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: private elementary school, and ell, there was a song called 219 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: doing It Well by a Little Cool j and that 220 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: came on and it's just all sex sounds, and I 221 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: think you slammed that removable radio that you had in 222 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: the vulva and you were like, oh, please, I think you, 223 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: and finally it was it was enough. But also but 224 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: you also, you know, we're still buying me those rapsds 225 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: with the parental advisory on them. So and we went 226 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: to that club someplace near Fenway MoMA Kens the club. 227 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: Oh you mean, oh to go see that? Um, I 228 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: think you. When we went to go see the Bloodhound games, okay, 229 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: but huge, I think to this concert that that was 230 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: the doing it like animals. You took Lily to a 231 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: Bloodhound Gang concert, she took me and that was really comedy, 232 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: the beginning of kind of comedy rap rock. But this 233 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: is also what made you become an artist because you 234 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: were like, you know what, some shit is just too 235 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: fucking cool from my parents, So I'm gonna blast this rap. 236 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: You know. Sure I listened to Credence with you, but 237 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: you know I also had my own taste in music. 238 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: That was important. Now, So when you first read this book, mom, 239 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: what was that initial reaction of her time in New York? Well, yeah, dude, 240 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: that's what. She goes to New York and she her 241 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: first top is She's like, I had some friends at Pratt, 242 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: so let me just go be near Pratt, which is 243 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: you know, everyone's sort of first inclination when you get 244 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: to this same same where's pratt And I did my 245 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: proud summer programs, so I was at sixteen and she 246 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: go and she lives like in kind of like Bedstype, Yeah, 247 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: and she's like, truly, no one was living in yeah, right, 248 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: like Myrtle Willoughby vibes right. And she had no money, yeah, 249 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: not a cent to her name. She was sleeping on 250 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: stoops in the park and neither did Maplethorpe. I mean 251 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: so that when they do finally meet for pages and 252 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: pages of this book, they are sharing. And one day 253 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: Old Grilled Cheese said, the beginning of the book is 254 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: just description of description of her being like. And then 255 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: at one am we went to Bickford, so it was 256 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: on forty third and third, and we'd share one black 257 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: coffee and one old donut. And then the next day 258 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: she's like, well, we were. I was working at Brentano's, 259 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: which is a chain, and there was one in the 260 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: Copley Mall for our whole that's bookstore, and and she's like, 261 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: she's like and she was so pissed that she didn't 262 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: get paid her first week of work. And then like 263 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: her coworker would leave her soup and a tupperware container. 264 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: She was just like everybody. She's like, I was hungry again. Yeah. No, 265 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: these Thinn gals in this book, they were pretty question ross. Okay, 266 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: So half this book is heard describing sidewalks and hallways. 267 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: I was just being full of pushers and drugs and 268 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: artists like this is a this is our One of 269 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: her many descriptions of Washington Square Park and between the 270 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: parameters of the White Arch, one was greeted by sounds 271 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: of bongos and acoustic guitars, protest singers, political arguments, activists 272 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: leaf letting, older chess players challenged by the young. The 273 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: soben atmosphere was something I had not experienced. Simple freedom 274 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: that wasn't oppressive to anyone. Is that how you had 275 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: described New York at that time and your experience? No, 276 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: I I found it much more difficult. I mean, I 277 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: was ecstatic to be here, but I found it that 278 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: it was really difficult. You weren't just like walking through 279 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: and seeing all the like buskers and artists and being like, Wow, 280 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: what a cool, awesome space where anything goes. No, I 281 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: was still thinking the Department on nich ninety fourth Street 282 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: that had more cockroaches than there were and there were 283 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: apartment buildings in the neighborhood, okay, which is also very classic, 284 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: you know, first apartment and gross out by that. I was. 285 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: I was, because she's very like, she's always kind of 286 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: being like it was squalor. Uh, you know, she doesn't 287 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: seem not gross. She's like, there was lice all over 288 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: the bed. But I'd seen lice in Europe, so I 289 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: was okay with that. I'm kind of like, girl, that's nasty. 290 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: It was, And she'd be like, oh, and so Robert 291 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 1: was covered in lice and then there was lice everywhere 292 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: in the bed, and then he also had crabs when 293 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: when they first moved into that place, like near Pratt 294 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: and she's like, it's covered in blood. Yeah, she was 295 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: like there was blood smeared all over the walls. Yeah. 296 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: And you're like, huh, yeah, So how did you try 297 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: to get rid of your cockroaches? Oh? Yes, I did? 298 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: I mean I did. I called the City of New York. 299 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: But I learned that who had to exterminate the entire 300 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: apartment building in order to get rid of them because 301 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: they just moved to somebody else, right, so it was very, 302 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: very disgusting. I assume you had to and you just 303 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: had to move eventually. Eventually I had to move. Now, 304 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: when I came into the apartment it turned on the lights, 305 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: they would all run away, of course, So you were 306 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: more of an uptown girl. Oh, it was quite an 307 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: uptown girl for a while. And then I was an 308 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: East village girl for a while. I guess Lowers. I 309 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: was on Fifth Street between B and C. Okay, that's 310 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: the part of it. She describes anything east of a 311 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: as a war zone. How do you feel like your 312 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: seventies time in these village compared to Patty Smith's seventies 313 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: time with Well, I certainly didn't know all of these 314 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: famous artists. And my greatest regret in life is that 315 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: I did not live in the Chelsea Hotel the same Well, 316 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, there's still we can get you over there. 317 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: I feel like I really related, as you're saying, is 318 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: when she's talking about out. You know they go to 319 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: the Chelsea Hotel and her and Robert there, but she's like, oh, 320 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,479 Speaker 1: everyone is there. You know Andy Warhol his High Court 321 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: and you know, Jimmy Hendrix and all these people, and 322 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: she's like, I was so intimidate, and I felt like 323 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: everyone was drinking. I'm like I wasn't, and like, yeah, 324 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: she's not a big boozer. No, no, that was very interesting. 325 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: I thought about the two of them. Neither one of 326 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: them drank, and she didn't do drugs where he did lots. Yeah, yeah, 327 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: he did lots well. And then she finally does do 328 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 1: LSD with him once right, and then once I think 329 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: she like accidentally does it right and freaks out. She's 330 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 1: quite in control, you know. She She's has quite an 331 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: academic energy to her. Her only vice really is drinking endless, 332 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: endless coffee. Books. Yes, she loves books and poetry. Rambo her, 333 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: she's obsessed with Rambo. But then this comes back to 334 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: the sort of classic fag hag thing because she loves 335 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: Rambou and Rambo also she talks about how like, well 336 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: he was kind of kind of explained to her. She 337 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: kind of like realizes that she didn't get homosexuality because 338 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: she was like using Rambo as his model and Rambo 339 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: was like weirdly closeted and like didn't understand his own sexuality, right, 340 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: and like Rambo died wanting a wife right right, and 341 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: kind of like also was kind of in denial about 342 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: his love with Verden. I think so, yeah, I think so, 343 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,239 Speaker 1: and she kind of starts to piece that together. She's like, 344 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: wait a minute here, right, yeah, she goes yeah, and 345 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: she's like she kind of wouldn't realize. She's like she 346 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: knows that Robert would be She's like, he kept well, 347 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: this kind of reminded me of you. She was like, 348 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: he would yet quiet sometimes and just start pacing maniacally 349 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: throughout the apartment. I was like, what's up with you? 350 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: And she was like, oh, it's because he's not like 351 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: sculpting right now. And it's like no, because he was 352 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: just like it's called gay panic and he's just gayd 353 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: He's not um sleeping with any men, he's just pacing 354 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: through their apartment. And she noticed when he started dating 355 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: I think his first boyfriend that she was like, oh, 356 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: he stopped kind of quietly pacing around. Now, did you 357 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: know anyone who was going to the Chelsea Hotel or 358 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: was that just kind of a totally different different now. 359 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: I think I learned about the Chelsea Hotel from Patty 360 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: from this book, but I feel like I felt that 361 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: of like, first we into New York and you're like, oh, 362 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: all these people here like hanging out this club are 363 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: so intimidating. And then she finally like once she starts relaxing, 364 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: she was like, well, I decided to stop judging everyone 365 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: so much and I could have some fun, right right. 366 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: She does refer to herself as judgmental a lot. Now 367 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: in your psychological opinion, do you think she was doing 368 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: that so that maybe she would feel like she was 369 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: higher than now these people that weren't accepting her. I 370 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: suppose there was some anxiety about it, but I don't know. 371 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I think her father sounds kind of judgmental 372 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: to me. They had a good relationship. Yeah, so the parents, 373 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: the dad was was that in the military or because 374 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: they moved to this place for service members right right? Dad, Yeah, 375 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: was in the military. The parents seemed generally supportive and 376 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: they're like, Okay, this is our this is like, you know, 377 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: our smart daughter. She is freaky and artistic and spindley. 378 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: And also like all the other sibling they're sick and various. 379 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: Everyone was like having again a crazy I guess that 380 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: is the thing when you read a book about the past, 381 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: everyone has a cough for like two years. Yeah, yeah, 382 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: and they but you know, they acknowledged that she was like, 383 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, the one with with potential, right, they just 384 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: kind of let her do her thing. And also, I 385 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: mean she was kid of the kids. I mean, you know, 386 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: it sounds like she took them around and they played 387 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: lots of games, and she they thought up things, and 388 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: they because she cooked, she could trast her childhood to Maplethorps. Yeah, 389 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: which I'm much more day I'm prisoned, but yes, yeah, 390 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: the Catholic, the Long Island Catholic parents, right, that seem 391 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: because right, he would she would bring him and he'd 392 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: be like, oh, like, this is the first time I've 393 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: been out like a holiday where it's not like silent 394 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: and angry and they're just saying when are you getting married? 395 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: And then it's cute when his her mom gives Robert 396 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: some like porcelain figurine and she or some some one 397 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,239 Speaker 1: of her little chuch keys. He's right, she does, her 398 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: mother gives him one, and yeah, that's right, that's right. 399 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: You couldn't believe it because he aggled it, right, so 400 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: leving the end, he was also on LSD when he 401 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: was I mean, this fag, it was high out of 402 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: his guard. I mean the entire book. I know. I 403 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: don't know if Russia. Have you ever done LSD Mom? No? No, okay, wow, 404 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: no ascid for you? No ASSISI, but you've done POT obviously. Pot. 405 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: I mean it was the sixties. It was the sixties, 406 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: and my response to the pot was that I would 407 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: get very silly, very hungry, and very sleepy. A few 408 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: of the tour of silly sleepy. Now the pot back then, 409 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: and mean, people always say it was pretty mild. Probably was, 410 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: but nonetheless, have you ever compared it to the modern stuff? No? 411 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: The only time I've done anything modern was more like 412 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: when you were in college or sometime we had some 413 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: modern pots. Yeah, you were probably there. But it's all 414 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: I remember was that I got hungry again. I went 415 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: I went out to the kitchen and came back. And 416 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: then everybody made fun of me because I had such 417 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: a grown up snack. I like a piece of fruit, 418 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: a little cheese. I think, um, this story a little differently. Well, 419 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: maybe you saw it us an elegant gird of stuff. 420 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: But you made a mango kissedia. You made a fruit sedia. 421 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: But I say, oh, yeah you should, I mean plant 422 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: based gassid. Yeah, you know, kind of glass of chilled 423 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: belong and yeah, but I think it was like, you know, 424 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: tortilla shredded cheese cheese. Because we talk about the infamous 425 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: fruitcase Idia, you know, we all think of it as 426 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: like not necessarily like something you might see on a 427 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 1: menu sloppy. Watch now, chefs, if you're listening, every menu 428 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: in New York City will be featuring this fruitcase idia. 429 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: Everyone make the fruitcase idio report back back fruitcase idea recipes. 430 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by Zoktok. You're trying to find 431 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: a cause for your symptoms achy back, headache, running, nose itchy. 432 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: I worked on my genitals, so let me guess you 433 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: stumble down a TikTok rabbit hole full of questionable advice 434 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,479 Speaker 1: from so called experts. Suddenly I have cancer. 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She finally like starts dating I forget 462 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: which for boyfriends, but I think she really realizes, you know, 463 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: Robert is gay, and she's like, I'm gonna is when 464 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: she gets married, and he says to her, what am 465 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: I gonna tell my parents? That part was so sad. Yes, well, yeah, 466 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 1: so she dated somebody whose name I don't remember, and 467 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: then she dated Sam Shepherd, not realizing that Sam Shepherd 468 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: was the same right Shepherd was wild And I guess 469 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: that kind of that does feel very you know, downtown 470 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: New York of Like, so she starts seeing Sam Shepherd, 471 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: famous playwright, and but he calls himself slim yeah, and 472 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: everyone's like, you know, that's the famous playwright. Like Sam Shepherd, 473 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: He's won like nine tonys and like that's why he's 474 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: ordering you like a lobster. The food was kind of wild, 475 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: Like it was either they were having donuts and black 476 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: coffee or they were like next to the Chelsea Hotel 477 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: having saveche and like lobsters. Yeah. Another thing of this 478 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: book that made me realize how unoriginal I am is 479 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: that talking about like I feel like her like alternative 480 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: her and Robert's interests of like old bookstores and postcards 481 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: and going to Coney Island and seeing like freaky things 482 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: and old movies like you know, and seeing kind of 483 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: you know, oddities and such. I feel like that is 484 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: every generation of like alternatives. I mean, it goes blue 485 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: through that for Indie and I'm sure in sixteen forty, 486 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: like the Indie kids in the village or just being 487 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: just like there's this really cool crept. Do you want 488 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: to go like like it's all the same shit. Well, 489 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: first of all, all all the interiors are always just like 490 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: Indian fabrics and beads and buddhas not so many buddhas, 491 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: how but she when she works at the bookstore, the 492 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: most important thing in their relationship is this like Persian, 493 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: It's like there's a lot of like, you know, things 494 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: like well, i mean they invented prayer flags, like your 495 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: generation mother is very well, there was rugs, and there 496 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: was a lot of Oriental rugs. Yeah, I mean, you know, 497 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: it was just that was those of the people who 498 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: made good rugs that lasted and they had interesting patterns. 499 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: There's there's one scene here I just wanted to read. 500 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: She's describing her disgusting apartment. Um, my treasured objects were 501 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: mingled with the laundry. My worker was a jumble of 502 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: manuscript pages, musty classics, broken toys and talismans, and just 503 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: like so it's a messy, like you're just living in 504 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: a mass But she's just being like the talisman's It's 505 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: like I'm just imagining like a gross like Bushwick Gay 506 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: in his tiled basement apartment that gets like a sliver 507 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,719 Speaker 1: of sunlight at three pm. Just describing the like empty 508 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: pop poppers bottle on the floor is a talisman. It's 509 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: like we could and like she's so romanticizing, just like 510 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: their groceries, village life for some years, just like normal. 511 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: Ask now about our first bedbug filled department, it could 512 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: have been like you walked in. It was old books, 513 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: yea fabrics, vintage clothes, a couch we got off Craigslist 514 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: for one hundred and fifty dollars. It was all the 515 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: money we had in our pocket at the time, a 516 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: big box TV that only had one plug, and it's 517 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: like bedbugs everywhere in the side to get it to work. Well, 518 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: this other moment that I really related with, when she's 519 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: like I think it's again Sam. Shephard comes to her 520 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: house and she's like my hed a bet on the 521 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: floor and old Hank Williams records and you know, and 522 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: my dusty guitar. But I guess yeah. I always think 523 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: of like our being Stevens generations being like the first 524 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: ones to be like obsessed in nostalgia. But I guess 525 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: were you into things of the past as a child, 526 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: I was riding horses. I don't which you just yeah, 527 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: gifted me one of your old horse show Um, is 528 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: it a plate, it's it's a it's a tray, a 529 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: tray totally charnished, but vintage horse trays. Were you good? Yes, Oh, 530 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: I mean she was a star like boxes of ribbons, 531 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: ribbons and ribbons and trophies. Because your other daughter, Gia 532 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: famously is a horse as well. Yes, I rode in 533 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: Madison Square Garden. You've performed in Madison Square Gardens. You 534 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: were No, I wish I mean it was no. It 535 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: was called it was called equitation equitation because for most 536 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,959 Speaker 1: horse shows, the competition is of the horse, so that 537 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: the horses being judged, whereas in these equitation classes for 538 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: the younger riders, Um, they're judging the rider. I see, 539 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,959 Speaker 1: So you were being judged as a rider right, and 540 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: how do you remember your score? Yes, I got a 541 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: sixth place. Oh wow, that's pretty good. It was pretty good. 542 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: It was pretty good because the problem was though that 543 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: my horse I think had been abused in some way 544 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: before I owned her, so that when when you ride 545 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: around in a ring, you ride around and then you 546 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: turn and then you reverse, and I think they used 547 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: to smack her when when on the reverse thing, So 548 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: that that's what you do in a quotation. You ride 549 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: around the ring and then you reverse into the stuff 550 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: the same way the other way around. Except she got very, 551 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: very jittery, and I couldn't sort of behavior therapize her 552 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: out of that because she never did it at home. 553 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: Oh only interesting, It was only it was that space 554 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: was like triggering for her, that's right, And it was 555 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: causing her to relive that trauma every time because of 556 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: all of the visual and sonic triggers around. And if 557 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: you didn't have the time to do the cognitive bathe 558 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: year old therapy with the horse in that space, that's right. 559 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: You know, you were just a young writer, that's right. 560 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: In Delhi, New York. Wow, I mean was that crazy 561 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: to go from dellah and it come to Madden Square 562 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: Gardenn't it was no mom? Please, Tulk, would you mind 563 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: listing the pets, the animals that you had growing up? 564 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: This is a little far afield from just this is. 565 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: Maybe we'll save that for the VIP lounge. Yes I wasn't, 566 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: where ros will be sticking around and things will get 567 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: really personal. Lunch that now comes out on for ridas. Okay, 568 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: we'll get into your pets another time and for the 569 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 1: for the paywall episode. Back to just Kids. What you know, 570 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: what I find quite endearing about this book, and I think, 571 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: you know, I think admirable is the honesty, you know, 572 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: how much she is basically admitting how much she had 573 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 1: this idea of an artist lifestyle that she wanted to 574 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: be adjacent to that she is pursuing. And she thinks 575 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: of artists as x y Z. She thinks of artists 576 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: as doing drugs and hanging out and being glamorous, being 577 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: fun and even as you know, she got through care 578 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:38,879 Speaker 1: and she's continuing to write and make art, and she's 579 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: hanging out with Maplethorpe and he's becoming gay and taking 580 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: photo sexy photos and other men's cocks. She's like, you know, 581 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: she's still like, uh, I don't know, Like, I don't know. 582 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: Everyone is like trying to be so cool to hang 583 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: out with Andy Warholler, at least for the vibe. Like 584 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: she's just admitting that there is very much like a 585 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 1: scene in an image that people are trying to portray 586 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: that she's also kind of trying to portray. I'm not 587 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: sure if she's doing it right. No, right, yeah, And 588 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of artists would not admit 589 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: that that is a huge motivator. Well, and also between 590 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: the two of them, because he really liked Warhole, yeah, 591 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: and and she did not. She said I didn't like 592 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: the soup and I didn't like the KM. Well. I 593 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: love that she was. She was like, I think art 594 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 1: should should change, should transform society, not mirror it. Yeah, right, 595 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: so you know it was such a dick at Andy, 596 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,399 Speaker 1: but I think right she resented even because she wanted 597 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: to be such a part of it. When they would 598 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: go to Chelsea Hotel in Max's Kansas City and she'd 599 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: be like, and there'd be Andy Warhole and his high Court. Yeah, 600 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 1: I mean, and then the part where she's like they 601 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: because they went through this period of always hanging out 602 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: this place that seems like it was kind of where 603 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,439 Speaker 1: unions were cafes. It was like eighteenth and Park kind of, 604 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: and like that was the hotspot for all the artists 605 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: to hang out. And yeah, that was a famous rock club, 606 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: rock history stuff. It was because I don't like a 607 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 1: restaurant that well. But then it turned into a club 608 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: and some she was like, oh, and then some guy 609 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: was like, do you want to go see the Velvet 610 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: Underground play? And she was like Max's Kansas City had 611 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: just started having shows, and she was like, I hadn't 612 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: heard the Velvet Underground yet. And then she went in. 613 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: She was like they just had this surfbeat and this, 614 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: which I find that certain. It's like she really was 615 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: not planning on becoming a musician at all. She was like, 616 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: I'm an artist, I'm a poet. Yeah, And then the 617 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: way she got famous was the music music, even though 618 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: she's not such a singer as much. She's more of 619 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: like a poet. Yeah. Yeah, Dylan was her idol, right, 620 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: and dylanthamously is not like such a vocalist, right, right. 621 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: But I love the part where she was like Maplethorpe 622 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: was like obsessed with going to maxis like maybe running 623 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: to anywhere hall, even though and he wasn't even really 624 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: going there anymore because he had just like already been shot. 625 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: And and she was like, and then a lot of 626 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: days like there would be like hours spent designing what 627 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: we were gonna wear to Max's. And I was like, wow, 628 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: relating to this, this is their first time of when 629 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, him being so obsessed with any of all 630 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: of them going to Max's. Kansas City. It was casual 631 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,919 Speaker 1: and sparse, adorned with large abstract pieces of art given 632 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: to Mickey by artists who ran up supernatural bar tabs. 633 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: I love that line, supernatural bar tabs. Everything saved the 634 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: white walls was red of booths, tablecloths, napkins. Even their 635 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: signature chickpeas were served in little red bulls. The big 636 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: draw was surf and turf, steak and lobster. The back room, 637 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: bathed in red light, was Robert's objective, and the definitive 638 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: target was the legendary roundtable that still harbored the rose 639 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: colored order of the absent silver King. Yes, and silver 640 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: silver King. And then she's like, oh, Annie, whirhol stopped, 641 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: you know, coming around much after he was shot. Yeah, 642 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: so were you blasting. Were you rocking at Patti Smith 643 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: CDs at the house while Lily is coming home and 644 00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: doing her fractions? I don't know, I actually know. I 645 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 1: think it was even later. I don't remember more when 646 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: I went to college, I think so. Yeah, like it 647 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: was more of like post war birds are out of 648 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: the nest, birds are out of the nest. And also 649 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: you know my continuing rebellion against the Catholic Church and 650 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: her famous line in one of her albums is Jesus 651 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: died for somebody's sins but not mine. Cigarettes. What does 652 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: she eat? What does she wear? How does she live? Okay, 653 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: what does she eat? So let's do obviously, in when 654 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: this book takes place, she eats stale donuts and coffee, coffee, 655 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: and yeah, a lot of girls like she has her 656 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: famous lettuce soup che water and lettuce. We should make 657 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: that tonight. Well, and then this she does it is 658 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 1: extremely Alice in Roman tin fish thing where she's like 659 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 1: I got like country bread and she does like anchovies 660 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: and olive oil. I could see that lettuce sup being 661 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: though like such a TikTok recipe now where it's like 662 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: you get it's like you get some really good bully 663 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: On that's like this cool bully on that everyone's getting 664 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: enough of Amazon. And then really good water yeah, and 665 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: like really good like thick leaves of lettuce. Yeah. And 666 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: then it's just like some like I'm amazing, Like what's 667 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: that kind of classic butter lettuce like something could Yeah, 668 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: just like a big buttery cabbage lettuce. No, but she 669 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: also goes She also goes to the automatch, goes to 670 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: Horden Hardutt and gets a lettuce and tomato sin which 671 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: except she doesn't have quite enough money, and that person 672 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: she doesn't know behind her gives her a dime and 673 00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: it's Alan Ginsburg. All right, bad asshole. I'm not a 674 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: fan of his. Yeah, what did he speak to you 675 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: at that time? Yes? You did? Okay, I mean I 676 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: wasn't there, so I can't say. No, what do we thank? 677 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: Patti Smith though eats currently, I see her making like 678 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: a big tujie chicken tejene. Hmm. I don't think she 679 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,919 Speaker 1: eats that much, to be honest, I think she still 680 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: kind of has a small she's a small stomach. She's 681 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: a bird like eater, right, I think so. And all 682 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: that coffee, Yeah, all that coffee jittery. Yeah, it just 683 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: makes you jittery. I think maybe maybe she has like 684 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 1: a half a corn cob for lunch. Oh well that 685 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: was since then she was when they go to their 686 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: favorite place, Coney Island, and are like being like alternative, 687 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: She's like, we'd share the hot dog, of course, and 688 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: and Robert would eat the hot dog. And she's like, an, 689 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: I would eat the sour crowd, which seems like a 690 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: very like thin person. Yeah, She's like, oh, I'll have 691 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: the pickled cabbage. Yum, yum, yum. She's like, I loved it. Yeah. 692 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: I bet today she's having like us, some pickles, just 693 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 1: a little mustard. Yeah, I'm sort of calling it a day, 694 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,240 Speaker 1: almost like a sweetish diet. And yet she almost seems 695 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: enamored with her being with a sense of hunger. She 696 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: talks about it quite a lot, you know, because she was, um, 697 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: what does she wear? I mean there's a lot of 698 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,879 Speaker 1: there's scarves. I wanted, there was a lot of like back. 699 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 1: I mean, there was like a very like old just 700 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: classic Saint Mark's boho leather jackets, scarves. Energy. There's like 701 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 1: sometimes she goes to like Paris and she writes Robert 702 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: a letter that's just like I'm being such a gypsy. 703 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: I'm adorned and scarves, I'm head to toe flowey. That 704 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: also amazing part happened to her speaking of poetry in 705 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,760 Speaker 1: France when that like crypt keeper yells at her in French, 706 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: you Americans have no respect for poetry. And then and 707 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: then she like walks away with her like jangly suitcase 708 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: and she's like, I'm sorry, we don't. But the other 709 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: thing she wears is she has a black Easter dress, 710 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: a lot of black. Oh when that which that's what 711 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: she wears at his funeral? Yeah, yeah, there's a lot. Okay, 712 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: She's always describing maplethorpe'sraches. Oh yeah, She's like, and then 713 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 1: he put on his haraches, threw on a pair of 714 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:29,240 Speaker 1: dungarees and harach. I've always wanted to wear harach And Mom, 715 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: what do you think can I bull them off? Because 716 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,320 Speaker 1: when I put them on, they do look like weird 717 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 1: little flats, Like they don't look like I'm a cool 718 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:41,800 Speaker 1: Cuban man. I don't. I don't think anyone really looks great. 719 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm not a big fan of men 720 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: without socks. And I think if you're gonna not wear 721 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: socks then you, but it also needs to be open 722 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: toe like I think clothes toe with no socks and 723 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 1: a harrache is maybe somewhat open because it's there. It's 724 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,280 Speaker 1: netted kind of. Yeah, it's woven leather front of the pod. 725 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: Teo pulls off listener, and I feel like harache very well, 726 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 1: and that's why I was like, oh, I wish I 727 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: could do that, but I think that's more specific to him. Yes, 728 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 1: I love the idea of casual summer the resort where 729 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 1: that the woven leather implies. Yeah, but I just don't. 730 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 1: I don't like what it does to an ankle. It 731 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: like because basically what is happening here is then it's 732 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: like now with listen, I'm like seeing your nakedness, and 733 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I want to see the naked bes finished, 734 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I want to see the toes. 735 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: But then when the toes are staffer want to see 736 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,840 Speaker 1: the toes. But all I'm thinking then is about the sweat, 737 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: the sweat that's pooling in the shoe. I feel like 738 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:43,840 Speaker 1: you actually have a toe fetish, Like I feel like, 739 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: is this like your thing? If you think a guy 740 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 1: has a big toe he has a big dick. Well, 741 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 1: I'm sure that's true. I mean, an elephant has a 742 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: bigger toe than a cat, and who has a bigger dick? Okay, 743 00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 1: So no haraches for me in my president. Yeah, if 744 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 1: you want to keep you, maybe when I go to 745 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: France on my own to visit Poet's graves without the 746 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:14,919 Speaker 1: pressure of my panicked gay companion around me, you can 747 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,800 Speaker 1: ratchet it up at walk all over Jim Morrison's grave 748 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:25,240 Speaker 1: and you're a rache. Okay, Um, how does she live? Okay? 749 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: I do feel like so like it is they're being 750 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,839 Speaker 1: very prayer flags and like during the apartment bet on 751 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: floor old records, I feel like she's probably still I 752 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: got I'm gonna say, I think there's a Buddha in there. Probably. 753 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,719 Speaker 1: But she also redid a house of the Rockaways. Oh 754 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,120 Speaker 1: this is from another book. Okay, Okay, so there's a 755 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: rehno in one of her other books. Yeah, how does 756 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: she redo it? Like a beach side? It's it's yeah, 757 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 1: it's like a little beach thing that she I mean, 758 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:55,919 Speaker 1: I don't think she doesn't do it all herself. Yeah, 759 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: I mean she hires people too. Yeah, but I mean 760 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 1: this is not like a five hundred thousand dollars condo. 761 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 1: I mean I think it's it's a small, yeah, and 762 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: she's probably keeping it like may be appropriate to the 763 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: architecture's coastal a hammock in there and and plants. So yeah, 764 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: so she she does live there, but then she has 765 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:24,439 Speaker 1: a department. So yeah, I remember right that she has 766 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 1: like probably a pretty kind of raw but now much 767 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: nicer loft with like a big sectional that's low and 768 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: made of linen, and there's like oriental rugs and maplethorpe 769 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: photos and maybe an old steel desk. I'm not so 770 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,439 Speaker 1: sure about that because when I read about it, it's 771 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: a lot more like a cot and an old desk. Yeah, 772 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,040 Speaker 1: don't you think she's a little bit more like your 773 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: client Lily Oh yeah, famous yea era. Yeah, I think 774 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 1: you're right, and it's quite bare bow yeah, okay, keep 775 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,719 Speaker 1: it the original. I mean that's I do love that 776 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,840 Speaker 1: she like got a house in Rockway, Like she is 777 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: just being like that New York City gall throne through 778 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 1: Like she's not getting some beach house, you know in Malibouo. 779 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,960 Speaker 1: She doesn't lust after, you know, a luxury in this book, No, 780 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: And I mean, in her life, the luxury that she 781 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:26,919 Speaker 1: likes is travel, Yes, experiences same and you know Maplethorpe. 782 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,919 Speaker 1: Curiously enough for a gay man, he was not such 783 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: a travel bug. And She's like that was not his thing. 784 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: He wanted to be New York based and like go 785 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:38,719 Speaker 1: out and party and be part of the scene and 786 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 1: do all of his time square forty second Street, sailor 787 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:49,120 Speaker 1: adjacent sexual um, you know, degeneracy. But she was just like, right, 788 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:53,719 Speaker 1: I'm ready to take the train from Morocco, San Francisco, Canada, 789 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,759 Speaker 1: you know, all the places. And he was still I 790 00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,600 Speaker 1: think he was a little afraid to travel life, Like 791 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,399 Speaker 1: I don't even like, well, I'm now finally cool here. 792 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: Let me stay in New York where Oh my god, 793 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 1: is that my fear? Is that why I can't leave 794 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:11,040 Speaker 1: New York? Well? Is that why you're going to Panama? Well, 795 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:12,919 Speaker 1: I mean I'm going to Panama, Yes, because of gay 796 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,960 Speaker 1: panic But I'm like, am I because I'm always like 797 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 1: I hated New York. I've lived here too long. But 798 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 1: it's like I'm like, God, you know, it's like you 799 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: finally made it. Sit with your High Court Atlantestine, my 800 00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:26,919 Speaker 1: high Court at Clantestino, and I'm like, oh my god, 801 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,279 Speaker 1: like I have friends here, you know I have. I 802 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,400 Speaker 1: have a career here. I can't. I can't. If I 803 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,279 Speaker 1: walk away, no one will know me. Well. Also, he 804 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: got sick just as he got successful, he got true, 805 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 1: so he wasn't gonna. He couldn't. He was only forty one. 806 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:46,399 Speaker 1: I mean, you know he wasn't. Maybe, so he may 807 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: have decided he might. Yeah. Yeah, well I'll be forty 808 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:58,320 Speaker 1: one soon. Maybe. Okay, Um, who are you in the book? Mom? 809 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:06,239 Speaker 1: I think you're Patti Smith. I wish what do you wish? 810 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I think you're amazing as is. What what 811 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:09,840 Speaker 1: do you wish? Do you wish you were more of 812 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:14,040 Speaker 1: a poet? Yes, yes, I do wish it. I wish 813 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,879 Speaker 1: I wish I had her bravery well. I think you're 814 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,279 Speaker 1: very brave. Well, thank you very much. You're very brave. Roth. 815 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 1: I mean you, I mean, you know you. We'll talk 816 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,160 Speaker 1: about moving some. I mean you moved from Boston, New York. 817 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: You moved somewhere where you had been quite ensconced. Yes, 818 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,800 Speaker 1: that's true for so long, and we're very comfortable, and 819 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 1: and moved a completely new place that you barely knew anywhere. 820 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,600 Speaker 1: That's true. I didn't do, so that's quite brave. Well, 821 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah, but her, Yeah, I mean, I mean 822 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:45,720 Speaker 1: I think maybe I'm thinking to myself at her age, 823 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:52,919 Speaker 1: when she was that young and exploring New York and anyway. Yeah, 824 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,399 Speaker 1: I mean I certainly see you know, there's obvious where 825 00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:00,840 Speaker 1: you're Patti Smith and I'm maple Thorpe, where no, there's 826 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:09,239 Speaker 1: I mean, I was definitely saying yeah that between us, Um, yeah, 827 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:11,600 Speaker 1: and I'm just like not this fack it again, like 828 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: sketching for three days straight and then just not talking 829 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,279 Speaker 1: and being silent and being like, wait, we have to 830 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 1: go to Max's Kansas City, and I'm just like, I 831 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 1: don't know, I don't really like know Andy Warhol that way, 832 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,800 Speaker 1: and You're like you're going, We're getting free lobster. It's happening, bitch. 833 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 1: But also, um, Maple, I also kind of related with 834 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,040 Speaker 1: maple Thorpe. We're both also a little bit maple Thorpe's 835 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,120 Speaker 1: more fabulous older benefactor who's always quoting Meggy Gook and 836 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,080 Speaker 1: I'm oh yeah, and he's like it's like the end. 837 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:48,920 Speaker 1: They're both sick, and he's like, I want to fly 838 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,279 Speaker 1: to Japan because I saw an amazing tea set I 839 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:56,799 Speaker 1: want to buy sama. Yes, yes, so famous when he 840 00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,320 Speaker 1: died yes, okay, yeah, I mean he was well on 841 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,480 Speaker 1: his way yeah, which is but I feel like he 842 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 1: became truly famous like after yeah, well and he says 843 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,200 Speaker 1: this also, I was like, this would so happen to us, 844 00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,120 Speaker 1: like if I got an out, like if I had 845 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:16,000 Speaker 1: an album that was charting before you and Patty and 846 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,439 Speaker 1: Robert are walking and they hear her song with Bruce 847 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,879 Speaker 1: Springsteen playing and he goes to her, well, you did it. 848 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:33,840 Speaker 1: You're famous before me. Absolutely can't wait, can't wait. You're like, congrats, bitch. No, 849 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:38,359 Speaker 1: I'm really happy for you. And you're charting single with 850 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen. Okay, wow, Um, I give I give this book, 851 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:51,399 Speaker 1: I would say maybe, yeah, I'll give it four out 852 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,400 Speaker 1: of five cigarettes. I think it's an important read. I 853 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,800 Speaker 1: think it is. You know, it explains so much about 854 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,439 Speaker 1: alternative culture and indie people in New York City, and 855 00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,439 Speaker 1: you know it's a little it give me a little 856 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:11,359 Speaker 1: repetitive at times. Um, there's not I don't know, there's not. 857 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,080 Speaker 1: There's not like so much that I'm there's not so 858 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 1: much humor in this book. Either I would say, um, 859 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,360 Speaker 1: which is fine, but then there's some that when the 860 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,080 Speaker 1: humor happens, it surprises you so much that I did 861 00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,120 Speaker 1: laugh out loud once, but I did you know, I 862 00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,120 Speaker 1: shed a tear at the end. And I ultimately I 863 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,040 Speaker 1: do think she is quite a good writer, and I 864 00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:33,319 Speaker 1: appreciate that. Um. So well done, Patty. Yeah, I would 865 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 1: go along with Stephen. I would. I would give it 866 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:36,719 Speaker 1: a four out of five. I mean, because in some 867 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,000 Speaker 1: ways it can simply seem like a bit of name dropping. 868 00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:45,040 Speaker 1: You know, all these people. But on the other hand, 869 00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,759 Speaker 1: it's like the history of that are of rock and rolls, 870 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,440 Speaker 1: so you gotta name the names. What would it be 871 00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,799 Speaker 1: if you didn't name the names? Yeah? Um no, agree, Yeah, 872 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,399 Speaker 1: four to five. And because there's so many books like 873 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,799 Speaker 1: this that are I would say more name dropping. But 874 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,040 Speaker 1: she's a better writer, so it's not just a list 875 00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,719 Speaker 1: of names and drugs. We did. Um, And I think 876 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:06,799 Speaker 1: it's cool that it is also just of such a 877 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,160 Speaker 1: time and not like let me do my whole life 878 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,399 Speaker 1: and really goes much more. A lot of members don't 879 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:16,520 Speaker 1: go so into the relationships and actually the emotions of it, 880 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,200 Speaker 1: rather than like we dated for three years and here 881 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,319 Speaker 1: was the breakup. Let's move on. So yeah four to five. Um, 882 00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:28,919 Speaker 1: well mom, this was this was epic. Thank you for 883 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:36,480 Speaker 1: inviting me. Yeah, this was dream. I mean we had 884 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,239 Speaker 1: to beg your publicists. Yeah, really glad you could move 885 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:44,640 Speaker 1: some things around and yeah, squeeze us in. Thank you, 886 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,520 Speaker 1: Thank you. I know you're you have you You're going 887 00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,279 Speaker 1: on the Drew Barrymore after this, right, yeah, we have 888 00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:54,120 Speaker 1: all you're doing today's show, Drew barrymsro Fallon. You know, 889 00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:59,719 Speaker 1: Conan the Circuit, Colbert, Colbert Rush. We'll talk about that 890 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:08,120 Speaker 1: in the VIP. Last. We're just good friends, all right, ladies, 891 00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,319 Speaker 1: listen to an episode. We'll see you for the VIP 892 00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:21,640 Speaker 1: on Friday. Yeah. Stick Around Best Best Celebrity Book Club 893 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,799 Speaker 1: is presented by Prologue Projects. The show is produced by 894 00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:31,160 Speaker 1: Benjamin Fish, with editorial support from Leon Nathan, Andrew Parsons 895 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:36,080 Speaker 1: and Madeline Kapline. Our production matter is Persia Verlin not 896 00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,240 Speaker 1: producing anyways. Name right, original theme song by Stephen Philips 897 00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,319 Speaker 1: or start work by Teddy Black Ships New York. Follow 898 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:47,800 Speaker 1: us on Twitter, Instagram at CBC the Pod, Subscribe on 899 00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,640 Speaker 1: your favorite podcast app. Leave us a review. And don't 900 00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,439 Speaker 1: forget to tell your friends about us, and don't get 901 00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,360 Speaker 1: to go to patrion dot com for access to the 902 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:11,640 Speaker 1: VIP Lounge are exclusive bonus podcast h