WEBVTT - Sinners with Mx. Dalia Belle

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<v Speaker 1>On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have

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<v Speaker 1>women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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<v Speaker 1>or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zephyn Beast

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<v Speaker 1>start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

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<v Speaker 3>My name is Caitlin, my name is Jamie, and this

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<v Speaker 3>is our podcast where we take a look at your

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<v Speaker 3>favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel

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<v Speaker 3>Test as a jumping off point for discussion. Kitlin, it's

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<v Speaker 3>a thousand degrees and we have an incredible movie today,

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<v Speaker 3>So hit them with what the Bechdel Test is and

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<v Speaker 3>then we'll just jump in.

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<v Speaker 2>Happy to do it. It is a media metric created

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<v Speaker 2>by our best friend in the whole wide world, Alison Bechdel.

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<v Speaker 3>Is our way of saying we met her twice.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, exactly, And it's a media metric. It has many

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<v Speaker 2>different versions. The one that we use is do two

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<v Speaker 2>characters of a marginal life gender have names? Do they

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<v Speaker 2>speak to each other? And is there conversation about something

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<v Speaker 2>other than a man. And we also like it when

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<v Speaker 2>it's narratively meaningful and relevant to the story and.

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<v Speaker 3>Today, we are I think it's been a while since

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<v Speaker 3>we have covered a movie so close to its release date,

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<v Speaker 3>but we've gotten so many requests for this movie and

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<v Speaker 3>we're very, very excited to bring a returning guest to

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<v Speaker 3>discuss twenty twenty five. They wanted only Ryan Coogler's Sinners.

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<v Speaker 2>And our guest today is a comedian and cat mom

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<v Speaker 2>and you remember her from our episode on Tangerine. It's

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<v Speaker 2>mixed Aliabell.

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<v Speaker 4>Hello, Welco, yay, thank you so much for having me back.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome back.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, we're so happy to have you.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you for bringing Sinners.

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<v Speaker 4>That's my specialty. I'm all about sin.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we love sin we love sinning. Over here on

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<v Speaker 2>the Bechdelcast, what's your Since this is such a new release,

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<v Speaker 2>a recent film, there's you know, not much history to

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<v Speaker 2>be had with it, but what's your kind of relationship? Slash?

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe just like overall impression of the film.

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<v Speaker 4>Uh wow, that's so much to unpack.

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<v Speaker 3>So slash like vampire movies in general, I guess Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>are you a vampire movie head?

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<v Speaker 4>I am gay so I have watched more than my

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<v Speaker 4>fair share of vampire movies For the listeners at home,

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<v Speaker 4>I am also black. So you know, Sinners hits on

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of subject matter and history that's pretty intrinsic

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<v Speaker 4>and personal to me.

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<v Speaker 2>H yeah, excited to dive deeper into that.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh and also, I've had a crush on Michael B.

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<v Speaker 4>Jordan for quite some time.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you're not made of stone exactly. He's just

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<v Speaker 2>one of the handsomest men alive.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's like, I'm just I guess that everyone on

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<v Speaker 3>the Zoom Call has a rush on Michael B. Jordan,

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<v Speaker 3>and he's and and here I mean, yeah, what is

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<v Speaker 3>better than Michael B. Jordan? Well two of.

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<v Speaker 4>Them, yes, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So I didn't really watch any like behind the scenes things,

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<v Speaker 2>but there are some things that happened in this movie

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<v Speaker 2>where I'm like, how did you do that? I imagine there's

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<v Speaker 2>body doubles and stuff like that. But I'm like, but

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes they're fighting each other and we can see both

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<v Speaker 2>of their faces at the same time, and it's just

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<v Speaker 2>movie magic.

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<v Speaker 3>I just hope it's not AI. I don't know. Oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>but I also did not look into it.

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<v Speaker 4>I choose to believe they cloned Michael B. Jordan.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that would be the responsible thing to do. Honestly.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm hmmm, yeah, yeah, like a like a the Prestige style.

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<v Speaker 4>Only without you know, obviously without killing the double exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm saying that he had a good two body

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<v Speaker 3>double named Percy Bell.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie?

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<v Speaker 3>I saw it right when it came out. We had

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<v Speaker 3>just covered a couple of vampire movies in a row,

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<v Speaker 3>and I was not sure I knew. I guess I

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<v Speaker 3>was bummed. I think this was true for a bunch

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<v Speaker 3>of people. I was bummed that someone tipped me off

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<v Speaker 3>that it was a vampire movie, because I know a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of people were like, c Sinners, don't look up anything,

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<v Speaker 3>because it was not really marketed that way, which is

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<v Speaker 3>kind of brilliant.

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<v Speaker 4>It was not.

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<v Speaker 3>So I was bummed that I knew it was a

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<v Speaker 3>vampire movie going in. I wish I could have seen

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<v Speaker 3>it for the first time not knowing that. But I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>this movie is doing so much in a way that

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<v Speaker 3>I feel like I didn't really fully appreciate until I

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<v Speaker 3>was watching it to prep for this, because it's also

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<v Speaker 3>you know, it's a period piece, and a really thoughtful

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<v Speaker 3>period piece of that. Like, I just I don't know,

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<v Speaker 3>I really loved it. I saw it twice in theaters

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<v Speaker 3>and just sort of let wash over me, and it

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<v Speaker 3>was very fun. It was fun learning how this movie

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<v Speaker 3>was made. Basically, Caitlyn, what About You?

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<v Speaker 2>I also saw this in theaters and I was able

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<v Speaker 2>to go in without knowing jealous that it was a

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<v Speaker 2>vampire movie.

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<v Speaker 3>I thought the day after it came out and someone

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<v Speaker 3>I don't even know who it was, but I placed

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<v Speaker 3>a curse on them.

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<v Speaker 2>I just like kind of stay off of social media

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<v Speaker 2>in general.

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<v Speaker 3>And I also healthy talk.

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<v Speaker 2>To people question work.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I just like I managed to avoid any spoilers, and

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<v Speaker 2>I was like dazzled by the movie and the twists

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<v Speaker 2>and everything. And vampire movies are like a subgenre that

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<v Speaker 2>I tend to be quite into. I love I love

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<v Speaker 2>a vampire. We've covered a lot of them on the show, and,

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<v Speaker 2>like you said, Jamie, a few recently.

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<v Speaker 3>The vampire movie that felt like most akin to this

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<v Speaker 3>one that I've seen is from Dusk Till Dawn.

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<v Speaker 2>Which Ryan Kogler cites as one of his inspirations for Sinners.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, similar in the sense that, like most of

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<v Speaker 2>the movie takes place at some sort of raucous nightclub

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<v Speaker 2>kind of place, and then Vampire's attack.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you think it's important to note that this is

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<v Speaker 4>a very different genre a vampire for sure, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>like we hit Nosferatu, the sort of creepy, mothball parasitic

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<v Speaker 4>type vampire. Vincent Pryce gave us the very dignified kind

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<v Speaker 4>of sexy vampire. Then we had the era of the

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<v Speaker 4>bisexual seducer vampire from an interview with the vampire. You

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<v Speaker 4>had the sparkle vampire of course. Brilliant innovation from Twilight.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, incredible.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and now we've made it all the way to

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<v Speaker 4>cultural vampurism.

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<v Speaker 3>So yeah, there's always innovation to be had in the

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<v Speaker 3>vampire space.

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<v Speaker 2>So true, let's take a quick break and then we'll

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<v Speaker 2>get into the recap and we're back.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I guess let's just jump into it because a

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<v Speaker 3>lot happens.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and my recap is quite long.

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<v Speaker 4>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's a prologue with voiceover talking about people born

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<v Speaker 2>with incredible musical talent that can pierce the veil between

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<v Speaker 2>life and death and conjure spirits between the past and future.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a gift that can bring healing to communities, but

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<v Speaker 2>it also attracts evil ooh, foreshadowing. We're in the Mississippi

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<v Speaker 2>Delta in nineteen thirty two. We meet a young man

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<v Speaker 2>named Sammy played by Miles Ca. He stumbles into a

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<v Speaker 2>small black church. He's covered in blood. He's holding a

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<v Speaker 2>broken guitar. He embraces the pastor, who is his father,

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<v Speaker 2>who begs Sammy to drop the guitar and leave his

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<v Speaker 2>sinning ways in the past, and we're also seeing flashes

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<v Speaker 2>of something scary that has happened, but we're not really

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<v Speaker 2>sure what's going on. We cut to the day before.

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<v Speaker 2>We see Sammy going about his day. He lives in

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<v Speaker 2>a community of mostly sharecroppers who work on a cotton plantation.

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<v Speaker 2>Then we meet twin brothers, Smoke and Stack, both played

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<v Speaker 2>by Michael B.

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<v Speaker 3>Jordan, and they're doing the amazing twin shorthand where one's

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<v Speaker 3>wearing a hat that's one color and one where is

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<v Speaker 3>wearing a hat that's another color. And I just twin media,

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<v Speaker 3>I was getting I will say I was getting burnt

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<v Speaker 3>out on famous men playing their own twins, because that

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<v Speaker 3>was happening a lot, like maybe ten years ago. But

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<v Speaker 3>when Michael B. Jordan does it, it's just something completely different.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's a special street, it.

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<v Speaker 3>Is, and he does an incredible job of like building

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<v Speaker 3>out two very distinct characters. Like when I was seeing

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<v Speaker 3>it for the first time, I forgot a few times

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<v Speaker 3>that you know, it's the same actor.

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<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of people did. They were like, wait,

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<v Speaker 2>does Michael B. Jordan have a twin that no one

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<v Speaker 2>knows about?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Like it's like, nope, Rammy Mallick style. That's one

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<v Speaker 3>of my Like what Rammy Malick has a twin and

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<v Speaker 3>his name is wait for it, Sammy Malick. Whoa wow

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<v Speaker 3>to something I think about a lot.

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<v Speaker 4>That's totally fair.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, doesn't Vin Diesel have a twin brother too?

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<v Speaker 4>Oh?

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<v Speaker 3>Really?

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<v Speaker 2>But not identical?

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<v Speaker 3>That's so wild to think of two Vin Diesels at

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<v Speaker 3>once that I don't know if I would want.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't even want one Vin Diesel.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know. I'm here for it, but I would

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<v Speaker 4>be for us straight to be Vin Diesel's brother. But

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<v Speaker 4>not identical.

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<v Speaker 3>That's true. Oh my god, Vin Diesel's fraternal twin. That

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<v Speaker 3>is a curse of sorts.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, in any case, Yes, there's one brother who wears

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<v Speaker 2>blue and that's smoke and the other one wears red

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<v Speaker 2>and that's Stack. They have just arrived back in Mississippi

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<v Speaker 2>from Chicago. We learn that they were bootleggers there. They

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<v Speaker 2>have a lot of cash from that, and they meet

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<v Speaker 2>up with a white man named Hogwood, who sells them

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<v Speaker 2>an old sawmill which they plan to turn into a

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<v Speaker 2>juke joint. And the twins tell this guy Hogwood, like,

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<v Speaker 2>our business here is done. If we ever see you

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<v Speaker 2>or your clan buddies on this property again, will kill

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<v Speaker 2>them parentheses more foreshadowing. Then Smoke and Stack link up

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<v Speaker 2>with Sammy, who's their cousin and who's going to play

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<v Speaker 2>guitar at the juke joint that night, and they start

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<v Speaker 2>getting everything else ready to open the joint, which they're

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<v Speaker 2>going to do that night. And I was like, oh

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<v Speaker 2>my god, that's the fastest turnaround I've ever heard of.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a pop up. It's a pop up.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean, and they put together something incredible.

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<v Speaker 2>So good on them. I would not have been able

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<v Speaker 2>to turn that around so quickly, but I.

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<v Speaker 3>Did enjoy sort of the thought experiment of if literally

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<v Speaker 3>one person says no to the Twins throughout this day,

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<v Speaker 3>the plan is pretty thoroughly fucked but they just I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>it's to Michael B. Jordan's. They know no one's going to.

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<v Speaker 4>Say now exactly. You can't say now. Yeah, yeah, yes.

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<v Speaker 2>So Smoke goes into a market owned by a couple

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<v Speaker 2>Bo and Grace Chow played by Yao and Lee Jion

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<v Speaker 2>Lee to place an order for catfish and to commission

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<v Speaker 2>a sign for the juke joint. Meanwhile, Stack and Sammy

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<v Speaker 2>go to the train station to hire another musician named

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<v Speaker 2>Slim played by Delroy Lindo.

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<v Speaker 4>Also no complaints on this side.

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<v Speaker 3>Great casting. Love Delroy Lindo the voice Alion. Yeah, truly, like,

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<v Speaker 3>oh god, he's just the best. I used to I

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<v Speaker 3>wrote fan fiction about him in college, which wow, is

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<v Speaker 3>a lor reveal like erotic.

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<v Speaker 2>Fanfic or no.

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<v Speaker 3>It was literally just fiction about like what do I

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<v Speaker 3>think he's up to at his house?

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<v Speaker 2>Amazing?

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<v Speaker 3>It was for like a class, But anyways.

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<v Speaker 4>That's a beautiful excuse.

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<v Speaker 3>I was just waiting for an excuse to speculate on

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<v Speaker 3>what he's up to and he was. Also I think

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<v Speaker 3>he should have won an Oscar for the five Woods

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<v Speaker 3>and didn't, and I will not let that go anytime

0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:57.240
<v Speaker 3>soon anyways, and.

0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:01.280
<v Speaker 2>You shouldn't They hire him, and they hire a man

0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:06.680
<v Speaker 2>called Cornbread to be the bouncer of the juke joint. Also,

0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:12.040
<v Speaker 2>Stack runs into a woman named Mary played by Hailey Steinfeld.

0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.280
<v Speaker 2>She's a former lover of his who he grew up

0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:21.240
<v Speaker 2>with and who seems like he ditched back in Chicago

0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:26.040
<v Speaker 2>like you do, like you do, so their relationship is

0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:31.720
<v Speaker 2>a bit contentious at the moment. Meanwhile, Smoke pays a

0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:35.720
<v Speaker 2>visit to a former lover of his, a woman named

0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:40.079
<v Speaker 2>Annie played by one Me Musaku. They have a lot

0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:43.760
<v Speaker 2>of history as well, some of it is painful, including

0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:50.440
<v Speaker 2>a baby they had together that died. And Smoke shows

0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:55.040
<v Speaker 2>up he wants to reconnect. He asks Annie if she'll

0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.960
<v Speaker 2>cook at the juke joint tonight, and then they start

0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:03.360
<v Speaker 2>smooching and having sex with each other.

0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.720
<v Speaker 3>A very horny movie. As for me, I mean all

0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.480
<v Speaker 3>of the we'll talk about this in the discussion as well,

0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:15.080
<v Speaker 3>but just the costuming in this movie is unreal. Everyone

0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:19.000
<v Speaker 3>looks i mean, I'm assuming period appropriate, but also just

0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:24.520
<v Speaker 3>so profoundly hot. It's wild. As every character is introduced,

0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:28.920
<v Speaker 3>You're just like, this is the greatest outfit I've ever seen, which.

0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.880
<v Speaker 4>Is very, very true for the period. I feel in

0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.360
<v Speaker 4>African American culture to just always be dressed the nine.

0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:40.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the tailoring and this, I hope this wins her

0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.880
<v Speaker 3>another Oscar. But this is Ryan Coogler worked with her

0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.760
<v Speaker 3>on Black Panther and Black Panther Wakonda Forever Ruth E. Carter,

0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:53.160
<v Speaker 3>and she won Oscars for costume design on both Black Panthers,

0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:57.960
<v Speaker 3>and she should win again. Yeah.

0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:04.920
<v Speaker 2>Everyone looks amazing, very hot. Yes, so they're they're smooching

0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:10.960
<v Speaker 2>and then and sex and sexing. Then we cut to

0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:15.240
<v Speaker 2>a mysterious white man who seems to fall out of

0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.200
<v Speaker 2>the sky and his skin.

0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:20.280
<v Speaker 4>Is burning again like they do, like.

0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.360
<v Speaker 3>White people do. This is period appropriate.

0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Yes, this is just a universal truth.

0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:30.040
<v Speaker 3>There were cursed Irish vampires falling from the sky.

0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:35.440
<v Speaker 2>This time he approaches a house and he tells the

0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:40.160
<v Speaker 2>white couple who live there, who are clan members, that

0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:43.880
<v Speaker 2>a group of native men tried to rob and kill him,

0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.800
<v Speaker 2>so the couple takes him in. Now, the chalk Taw

0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.400
<v Speaker 2>people show up a little while later and tell the

0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:54.280
<v Speaker 2>couple that they're pursuing someone very dangerous, someone who's not

0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:59.120
<v Speaker 2>what he seems. Because it turns out this man Remiic

0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:04.120
<v Speaker 2>played by j O'Connell is a vampire who attacks the

0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:08.280
<v Speaker 2>couple and turns them into vampires. Yes, and speaking of

0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:12.880
<v Speaker 2>quick turnarounds, the vampire incubation period in this movie seems

0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.080
<v Speaker 2>it's very sweat a matter of minutes.

0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, as long as long as the plot needs.

0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:18.840
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.880
<v Speaker 3>And if there was any question if this couple is

0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:27.360
<v Speaker 3>wildly racist, they are sooner to uh let a man

0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:31.520
<v Speaker 3>who's obviously lying and covered in like sores and boils

0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:36.720
<v Speaker 3>into their home than have a conversation with a native person.

0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and that's called white privilege.

0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yes, it is covered in sores and boils and

0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:43.960
<v Speaker 3>somehow got in the door.

0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and had to be invited in which they do.

0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:49.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. That it seems to be the one rule of

0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.600
<v Speaker 3>vampires here. Although you get the garlic, you got the classics,

0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:55.800
<v Speaker 3>the classic garlic, the sunlight.

0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.640
<v Speaker 4>Yes, yeah, they retain the classic.

0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:01.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the stake through the heart, Yeah for sure. Then

0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.240
<v Speaker 2>we cut to the Duke Joint. It's opening up. People

0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:11.399
<v Speaker 2>are arriving. The clientele is entirely black, aside from Mary,

0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:16.040
<v Speaker 2>who does have some black ancestry. She says that her

0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.080
<v Speaker 2>maternal grandfather was half black, which I believe is also

0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:23.520
<v Speaker 2>true for Hailey Steinfeld as well, thinks so yeah, though

0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:29.439
<v Speaker 2>she passes as a white woman. We also meet Perline

0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.280
<v Speaker 2>or I think we've already met her. She's played by

0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:38.600
<v Speaker 2>Jamie Lawson, and she and Sammy are vibing. Then Sammy

0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:42.160
<v Speaker 2>starts playing his guitar and singing the blues, and then

0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.720
<v Speaker 2>we get like the sequence of the movie, the one

0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:51.680
<v Speaker 2>where we see people playing music and dancing from the

0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:56.520
<v Speaker 2>past from the future, with the same voiceover from the beginning,

0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:03.200
<v Speaker 2>suggesting that Sammy has this spiritual musical talent that was

0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:11.040
<v Speaker 2>previously discussed and this music seems to attract that vampire man.

0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:15.200
<v Speaker 2>Remic with him is the couple that he just turned

0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.720
<v Speaker 2>into vampires. This is Joan and Bert, and they all

0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.640
<v Speaker 2>show up outside the Duke joint saying that they are

0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.199
<v Speaker 2>musicians and they want to come in and eat and

0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:29.800
<v Speaker 2>drink and play music. Cornbread the bouncer and Smoke and

0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:34.040
<v Speaker 2>Stack and everyone are very suspicious of them, but Smoke

0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.800
<v Speaker 2>and Stack and some of the others kind of like

0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.840
<v Speaker 2>weigh the pros and cons of letting them in, of course,

0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:42.879
<v Speaker 2>not realizing that they're vampires.

0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:47.919
<v Speaker 3>Well, and also like they make it disturbingly clear that

0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.639
<v Speaker 3>they're like, will be right over there, so they're also

0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:55.720
<v Speaker 3>like leering nearby, lingering, yeah.

0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:59.679
<v Speaker 2>And they realize that they could use these white people's money,

0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:04.119
<v Speaker 2>so Mary suggests she goes and talks to them to

0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of find out what their deal is. And they're

0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.399
<v Speaker 2>weird and creepy, and it seems like they're about to

0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:12.200
<v Speaker 2>attack her, and I think that.

0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:14.760
<v Speaker 3>Like they specifically prey on the fact that her mom

0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.719
<v Speaker 3>recently died, because that was the one thing that I

0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.120
<v Speaker 3>was like, why did we learn that detail? I didn't remember?

0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.080
<v Speaker 3>And then it seems like that is like one of

0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:24.560
<v Speaker 3>the tricks.

0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:33.000
<v Speaker 2>Then a short time later, Mary goes back inside via cornbread,

0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:37.080
<v Speaker 2>saying like, go ahead on in, which is how she's

0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:40.120
<v Speaker 2>able to get back inside because she's a vampire now.

0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:44.160
<v Speaker 2>And she seduces Stack and they go into a room

0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:48.320
<v Speaker 2>and start having some more sex, but oh no, she

0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:53.800
<v Speaker 2>bites him and sucks his blood, which Smoke walks in on.

0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:58.800
<v Speaker 2>So he shoots Mary a bunch of times, but she

0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:03.560
<v Speaker 2>gets right back up on account of being undead and

0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:06.919
<v Speaker 2>runs off into the night, and everyone's like, what the

0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.240
<v Speaker 2>fuck was that all about? People rush to Stack's aid,

0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:15.280
<v Speaker 2>but he dies kind of in the way that vampires do,

0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.440
<v Speaker 2>and Smoke is devastated. They send all of the patrons home,

0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:26.240
<v Speaker 2>though people like Sammy, Annie, Slim Pearlein, Bo, and Grace

0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:31.240
<v Speaker 2>stay behind, but Grace wants to leave, so Bo goes

0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:35.960
<v Speaker 2>out to pull the car around. Meanwhile, Cornbread had gone

0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:40.320
<v Speaker 2>off to use the bathroom and he's attacked by the

0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:44.160
<v Speaker 2>vampires and he comes back. He's acting weird. He wants

0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:48.159
<v Speaker 2>to be let in, and then Stak, whose body they

0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:52.760
<v Speaker 2>locked in the room, starts trying to get out, pretending

0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:54.840
<v Speaker 2>like he's not a vampire.

0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.840
<v Speaker 3>I love the shots where they're having like a conference

0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.240
<v Speaker 3>outside being like I don't know, Oh should we? I

0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:03.080
<v Speaker 3>don't know, I don't know, And then you cut back

0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:06.640
<v Speaker 3>to him and he's like going full vampire mode at

0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.800
<v Speaker 3>this like wild angle. It's just it's awesome.

0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:12.120
<v Speaker 2>He's like, I'm not a vampire? What are you talking about?

0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:12.320
<v Speaker 4>Him?

0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:14.520
<v Speaker 3>He was like, guys, come on, come on, what's the

0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:15.639
<v Speaker 3>where is that gould happen?

0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.720
<v Speaker 2>So he bursts out and runs out into the night,

0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:25.600
<v Speaker 2>after Annie throws pickle garlic on him because she realizes

0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:30.800
<v Speaker 2>they're dealing with vampires, which means the plan is to

0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:36.080
<v Speaker 2>stay in the juke joint until sunrise and gather whatever

0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:40.760
<v Speaker 2>weapons they can in case they need to fight. Meanwhile,

0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:45.040
<v Speaker 2>the vampires have turned basically everyone who was at the

0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:50.600
<v Speaker 2>juke joint, so it's like several dozen people into vampires

0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:56.960
<v Speaker 2>and they're all doing an Irish jig. Back inside, Annie

0:21:57.080 --> 0:21:59.879
<v Speaker 2>has everyone eat a clove of garlic to make sure

0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:02.840
<v Speaker 2>that no one is a secret vampire, and it turns

0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:07.240
<v Speaker 2>out they're not. But then Bo comes back around, acting

0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:13.320
<v Speaker 2>very vampirey, and Remick is right behind him, saying that

0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:19.359
<v Speaker 2>he knows everything that Bo knows because the vampires kind

0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:24.240
<v Speaker 2>of share like a collective consciousness, and Remick says that

0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:28.320
<v Speaker 2>Sammy is the one he's after. He wants to absorb

0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:32.520
<v Speaker 2>this musical gift so that he can travel through time,

0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:36.600
<v Speaker 2>so to speak, and be brought back to his people.

0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:43.879
<v Speaker 2>Remick is also caring on about how this vampire group

0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:48.280
<v Speaker 2>is all about like free love and fellowship and family,

0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:54.400
<v Speaker 2>but actually their vibes are very sinister, and Remiic threatens

0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:57.880
<v Speaker 2>to go after Bo and Grace's daughter Lisa if they

0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:03.720
<v Speaker 2>don't let the vampires inside, so Grace starts freaking out

0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:09.280
<v Speaker 2>and screams like, come on in, you motherfuckers effectively inviting

0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:14.800
<v Speaker 2>the vampires inside, so they russian. A battle ensues. Vampire

0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Stack goes after Annie and bites her, so Smoke has

0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:22.760
<v Speaker 2>to kill her because he had promised that he would

0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.600
<v Speaker 2>drive a stake through her heart before she turned.

0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:31.240
<v Speaker 3>Because Annie is a pragmatist to her core, she is like,

0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:35.880
<v Speaker 3>let's stop being sentimental. This is a vampire movie, which

0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:39.119
<v Speaker 3>is always my favorite character in the vampire movie, right, right.

0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:45.360
<v Speaker 2>So then Stak goes after Smoke so that they can

0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:49.840
<v Speaker 2>be immortal vampire brothers together, and so Smoke has to

0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:53.439
<v Speaker 2>decide if he's going to kill his brother, can he

0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:59.760
<v Speaker 2>do it? Cut to Remick descending on Sammy and he's

0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:04.639
<v Speaker 2>a to turn him, but just then Smoke gets Remick

0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:08.600
<v Speaker 2>with a steak in the heart and saves Sammy. And

0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:12.119
<v Speaker 2>then the sun comes up and they watch as Remick

0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:16.720
<v Speaker 2>and the other vampires burst into flames and perish. But

0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:21.800
<v Speaker 2>the battle is not over because earlier, Remick had revealed

0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:25.359
<v Speaker 2>that Hogwood, the white man who sold the brothers the

0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:30.160
<v Speaker 2>juke Joint, is the Grand Dragon of the KKK, and

0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:36.760
<v Speaker 2>he intended to kill everyone at this establishment. So Smoke

0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:41.600
<v Speaker 2>gears up for another fight as he reflects on the

0:24:41.680 --> 0:24:44.840
<v Speaker 2>day before, we get this montage of all the work

0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:47.280
<v Speaker 2>that went into opening up the juke joint. We're also

0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:51.119
<v Speaker 2>seeing Sammy go into his father's church, the same scene

0:24:51.359 --> 0:24:53.960
<v Speaker 2>that we saw in the beginning of the movie. And

0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:59.719
<v Speaker 2>then the clan arrives at the juke Joint and Smoke

0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:05.440
<v Speaker 2>starts shooting them with his artillery of rifles and machine guns,

0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:09.520
<v Speaker 2>and he kills them all but is shot in the

0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:15.080
<v Speaker 2>process and starts bleeding out and seeing a vision of

0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:21.600
<v Speaker 2>Annie breastfeeding their baby, signifying that he's dying and joining

0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:27.960
<v Speaker 2>them in the afterlife. Then there's an epilogue where Sammy,

0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:33.120
<v Speaker 2>now an old man in nineteen ninety two in Chicago,

0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:36.280
<v Speaker 2>performs regularly at.

0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:38.960
<v Speaker 3>This club and he's also a buddy guy.

0:25:39.560 --> 0:25:40.640
<v Speaker 4>Very important detail.

0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:44.399
<v Speaker 3>Yes what it incredible, I think one of the most

0:25:44.480 --> 0:25:46.520
<v Speaker 3>inspired cameos of our time.

0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:50.400
<v Speaker 4>Also known as dead yes for those.

0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:57.960
<v Speaker 2>And late one night at the club, he has two visitors,

0:25:58.760 --> 0:26:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Stack and Mary, because it turns out that Smoke never

0:26:03.440 --> 0:26:07.760
<v Speaker 2>killed his brother Stack as long as Stack promised to

0:26:07.880 --> 0:26:12.080
<v Speaker 2>never go after Sammy, which he kept his promise, and

0:26:12.720 --> 0:26:16.040
<v Speaker 2>Stack does offer to turn Sammy into a vampire to

0:26:16.080 --> 0:26:20.919
<v Speaker 2>make him immortal, but Sammy's like, no thanks, I'll just

0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:25.439
<v Speaker 2>die the regular way. And then he's like, but before

0:26:25.520 --> 0:26:29.359
<v Speaker 2>all that horrible stuff happened that night, that was the

0:26:29.359 --> 0:26:34.080
<v Speaker 2>best day of my life. You and Stack is like same.

0:26:34.760 --> 0:26:37.679
<v Speaker 2>That was the last time I saw my brother, and

0:26:37.760 --> 0:26:42.560
<v Speaker 2>for those few hours at the juke joint, we were free.

0:26:42.600 --> 0:26:46.479
<v Speaker 2>And that's the note that the movie ends on. So

0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:55.600
<v Speaker 2>let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:06.000
<v Speaker 3>And we are back Dahlia in the grand tradition of

0:27:06.040 --> 0:27:08.520
<v Speaker 3>the show. Where would you like to start the discussion?

0:27:08.560 --> 0:27:09.720
<v Speaker 3>What's sticking out to you?

0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:14.240
<v Speaker 4>Oh? Oh, there are so many places to go.

0:27:14.680 --> 0:27:18.919
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I know every time I'm like, oh this is

0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:22.280
<v Speaker 3>Is this a mean thing to do to our guests?

0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:26.000
<v Speaker 4>Oh? A little bit, a little bit. There are so

0:27:26.119 --> 0:27:30.280
<v Speaker 4>many different things to choose in this film because it's

0:27:30.320 --> 0:27:33.439
<v Speaker 4>so multi layered. I guess one thing I would say

0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:36.800
<v Speaker 4>it does. It did strike me as odd because you know,

0:27:36.840 --> 0:27:41.240
<v Speaker 4>you have the grand montage scene that I think we

0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:45.000
<v Speaker 4>all took home with us in our hearts, but I

0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:48.639
<v Speaker 4>did expect there to be more to come of that

0:27:50.040 --> 0:27:54.679
<v Speaker 4>and a bit more exploration of that theme. So that

0:27:54.800 --> 0:27:57.000
<v Speaker 4>struck me as a little strange.

0:27:57.800 --> 0:27:59.800
<v Speaker 2>You mean the scene where it's kind of like we're

0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:03.800
<v Speaker 2>trying through time and seeing all of the musicians.

0:28:03.960 --> 0:28:07.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and we just do it once. We just established

0:28:07.000 --> 0:28:09.879
<v Speaker 4>that it is a power that he has that he

0:28:10.440 --> 0:28:15.280
<v Speaker 4>just happens to have. I don't know that it's particularly

0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:23.240
<v Speaker 4>utilized to any meaningful impact aside from you know, incidentally

0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:25.760
<v Speaker 4>attracting vampire vampires.

0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:30.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, right, because there is mention that, like Remick says,

0:28:31.119 --> 0:28:33.160
<v Speaker 2>I want to absorb this power so that I can

0:28:34.000 --> 0:28:40.200
<v Speaker 2>like access people from my past. Because it's not super

0:28:40.200 --> 0:28:43.280
<v Speaker 2>explicit how old he is slash how long he's been

0:28:43.280 --> 0:28:47.680
<v Speaker 2>a vampire, but he makes reference to living in like

0:28:47.920 --> 0:28:50.920
<v Speaker 2>pre colonized by England, Ireland.

0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:53.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I think it's supposed to go back to

0:28:54.360 --> 0:28:56.840
<v Speaker 3>I was looking into because I was trying to figure

0:28:56.840 --> 0:29:00.320
<v Speaker 3>out like, yeah, this this movie's relationship with like time

0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:03.520
<v Speaker 3>in generational trauma is like you're saying, Dahlia, it's like

0:29:03.680 --> 0:29:08.240
<v Speaker 3>really really complex and also not at least for me.

0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:11.960
<v Speaker 3>I had to like do outside research to understand like

0:29:12.720 --> 0:29:17.360
<v Speaker 3>how much time was being covered because I guess canonically

0:29:17.400 --> 0:29:22.440
<v Speaker 3>the Irish vampire is from like the eleven hundreds, like

0:29:22.600 --> 0:29:26.040
<v Speaker 3>he is ancient, which is like interesting but we don't.

0:29:26.360 --> 0:29:29.600
<v Speaker 3>I don't think we technically know that, right, Yeah, I

0:29:29.960 --> 0:29:31.880
<v Speaker 3>agree with you, Dalliah, Like I think that it's such

0:29:31.920 --> 0:29:35.360
<v Speaker 3>a like it's it's the image that everyone takes home,

0:29:36.160 --> 0:29:39.640
<v Speaker 3>and I feel like the closest you get to a

0:29:39.680 --> 0:29:44.040
<v Speaker 3>meaningful payoff is Buddy Guy. Is that like he is

0:29:44.080 --> 0:29:47.600
<v Speaker 3>the character, which I do think is good. Right, It's

0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:51.440
<v Speaker 3>like he is the character who lives on and like

0:29:52.000 --> 0:29:55.480
<v Speaker 3>I really there is I don't know. I usually absolutely

0:29:55.480 --> 0:29:58.200
<v Speaker 3>cannot stand post credit scenes, but this one's amazing.

0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:01.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's one of the very you justified ones.

0:30:01.840 --> 0:30:05.160
<v Speaker 3>Right where it's like he's turning down eternal life and

0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:06.880
<v Speaker 3>I feel like, or I don't know, the way I

0:30:06.920 --> 0:30:09.920
<v Speaker 3>was like seeing the undercurrent to that is first of all,

0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:12.680
<v Speaker 3>that's a curse. We've all seen a movie. We know that.

0:30:13.120 --> 0:30:17.200
<v Speaker 3>But also that like he is immortal in a way

0:30:17.280 --> 0:30:21.240
<v Speaker 3>because he like lived to be able to make art

0:30:21.320 --> 0:30:24.880
<v Speaker 3>and like contribute to culture and like keep the legacy

0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:27.000
<v Speaker 3>of the blues music he was playing at the juke

0:30:27.120 --> 0:30:30.560
<v Speaker 3>joint continued, So it's like he doesn't need to live forever.

0:30:31.040 --> 0:30:33.800
<v Speaker 3>And that's like part of what is so sad about

0:30:33.800 --> 0:30:36.120
<v Speaker 3>the vampires is they didn't get to live long enough

0:30:36.120 --> 0:30:37.920
<v Speaker 3>to to have that.

0:30:38.160 --> 0:30:41.920
<v Speaker 4>I don't know, yeh, And I think it also in

0:30:42.040 --> 0:30:47.200
<v Speaker 4>part this is very esoteric, but it does also in

0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:52.640
<v Speaker 4>a way play into an African sense of time, where

0:30:53.920 --> 0:30:58.760
<v Speaker 4>death is not definitively the end of life. It's just

0:30:59.080 --> 0:31:02.840
<v Speaker 4>a transition into a much larger past.

0:31:04.080 --> 0:31:07.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I just this is very scholarly of me, But

0:31:07.640 --> 0:31:12.960
<v Speaker 2>I watched an Instagram reel what Yeah I watch about

0:31:12.960 --> 0:31:18.600
<v Speaker 2>everyone that was it was a woman talking about the

0:31:18.960 --> 0:31:22.600
<v Speaker 2>African concept of time, and she's explaining that it's the

0:31:22.640 --> 0:31:26.200
<v Speaker 2>idea that like time is comprised of events that you

0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:31.080
<v Speaker 2>experience in the present and events that have been experienced

0:31:31.120 --> 0:31:35.280
<v Speaker 2>in the past, and because it's impossible to experience future

0:31:35.280 --> 0:31:40.520
<v Speaker 2>events that haven't happened yet, the concept of the future is.

0:31:40.680 --> 0:31:43.160
<v Speaker 4>The future doesn't necessarily.

0:31:42.560 --> 0:31:46.720
<v Speaker 2>Exist right right, which I really like. But as far

0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:50.959
<v Speaker 2>as the concept of time, past, present and future in

0:31:51.000 --> 0:31:54.640
<v Speaker 2>the movie, the sequence in the juke Joint where like

0:31:54.880 --> 0:31:59.760
<v Speaker 2>time is being transcended via the music, I guess I'd

0:31:59.760 --> 0:32:01.280
<v Speaker 2>like to didn't think that much about it because I

0:32:01.320 --> 0:32:04.520
<v Speaker 2>was just like, Wow, this is so cool, and then

0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:06.920
<v Speaker 2>I forgot to do my job and think harder.

0:32:07.920 --> 0:32:12.600
<v Speaker 4>But no, no, it's a cool scene that it achieved

0:32:12.600 --> 0:32:15.520
<v Speaker 4>its goal. Clearly it sticks with everyone.

0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:18.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean it, yeah, because it's like you're covering

0:32:18.800 --> 0:32:21.240
<v Speaker 3>so I mean again, it's like I don't know enough

0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:25.280
<v Speaker 3>history in general to say, like what the time period is,

0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:27.960
<v Speaker 3>but it definitely goes into the past into the future.

0:32:28.040 --> 0:32:32.040
<v Speaker 3>I like that. It also felt very cool that with

0:32:32.160 --> 0:32:36.720
<v Speaker 3>Bo and Grace, like their culture was represented near them,

0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:40.920
<v Speaker 3>and then there were the creepy white lurkers right outside

0:32:41.280 --> 0:32:44.280
<v Speaker 3>who I don't know. I feel like you're not supposed

0:32:44.280 --> 0:32:47.880
<v Speaker 3>to understand in that moment, but it's like part of

0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:53.640
<v Speaker 3>what makes them so horrible is like they want to

0:32:53.840 --> 0:32:57.480
<v Speaker 3>have that, but they can't conceive of having that without

0:32:57.560 --> 0:32:58.840
<v Speaker 3>taking it from someone.

0:32:59.240 --> 0:33:03.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and I suppose we may as well dive into

0:33:03.400 --> 0:33:08.360
<v Speaker 4>the cultural and racial component of it. I think it

0:33:08.360 --> 0:33:10.719
<v Speaker 4>would be irresponsible of us, not too obviously.

0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:15.960
<v Speaker 3>Wait, what do you mean, No, Yeah, yeah.

0:33:15.360 --> 0:33:20.600
<v Speaker 4>I do think it's interesting that they did include the

0:33:21.320 --> 0:33:24.800
<v Speaker 4>Chinese couple, which was not a detail that I would

0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:30.240
<v Speaker 4>have personally thought to include, but it is apparently very

0:33:30.280 --> 0:33:35.840
<v Speaker 4>important historically the connection between the African American and Asian

0:33:35.880 --> 0:33:40.000
<v Speaker 4>American communities, particularly in the South at that time.

0:33:41.000 --> 0:33:43.560
<v Speaker 3>I didn't know that. Yeah, I mean I learned a

0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:48.240
<v Speaker 3>lot about like this specific time in this specific place.

0:33:48.240 --> 0:33:51.440
<v Speaker 3>I knew it was the time of the Great Migration,

0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:55.560
<v Speaker 3>but I wasn't aware of I mean, I know that

0:33:55.600 --> 0:34:00.280
<v Speaker 3>this is like a failure of public schooling to some extent,

0:34:00.640 --> 0:34:04.360
<v Speaker 3>is how diverse these areas were and how diverse these

0:34:04.360 --> 0:34:09.120
<v Speaker 3>communities were, And actually seeing that brought to life in

0:34:09.160 --> 0:34:12.279
<v Speaker 3>a movie is like critical because there's going to be

0:34:12.360 --> 0:34:16.640
<v Speaker 3>kids who are being failed in schools right now who

0:34:16.640 --> 0:34:17.560
<v Speaker 3>will see this movie.

0:34:17.600 --> 0:34:20.160
<v Speaker 2>And you know there's it has a role in it.

0:34:21.680 --> 0:34:26.520
<v Speaker 2>Speaking of being very scholarly, I read a piece on Medium.

0:34:26.800 --> 0:34:30.200
<v Speaker 3>Wow, I'm just getting all that. Wait, what is the

0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:31.680
<v Speaker 3>one thing more scholarly than.

0:34:31.760 --> 0:34:35.640
<v Speaker 2>Real aside from Wikipedia of course, scholarly journal.

0:34:35.760 --> 0:34:38.640
<v Speaker 4>Yes, next thing you're going to like drop a TikTok

0:34:38.960 --> 0:34:39.479
<v Speaker 4>on us.

0:34:39.640 --> 0:34:42.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, look, there's things to be learned.

0:34:42.239 --> 0:34:44.320
<v Speaker 3>I feel like that's foreshadowing. Wait, are we going to

0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:46.399
<v Speaker 3>hit a TikTok? We'll get there, We'll get there.

0:34:46.520 --> 0:34:50.080
<v Speaker 2>Maybe maybe No. But this piece I found to be

0:34:50.400 --> 0:34:55.640
<v Speaker 2>really interesting by a writer named Brian Vaden, who broke

0:34:55.680 --> 0:35:01.080
<v Speaker 2>down the motif of money and power and control and

0:35:01.239 --> 0:35:03.040
<v Speaker 2>the movie and how all of these things relate to

0:35:03.080 --> 0:35:06.879
<v Speaker 2>each other. I'll just quote this quote. We also meet

0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:10.880
<v Speaker 2>an Asian family running multiple convenience stores that serve both

0:35:11.040 --> 0:35:15.120
<v Speaker 2>black and white customers on either side of a segregated street.

0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Its placement in the film is highly intentional. It shows

0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:23.400
<v Speaker 2>how some communities figured out how to navigate and survive

0:35:23.560 --> 0:35:27.239
<v Speaker 2>between two systems, how to offer services and goods to

0:35:27.360 --> 0:35:31.880
<v Speaker 2>both without fully belonging to either. It's a quiet commentary

0:35:32.000 --> 0:35:36.200
<v Speaker 2>on strategy, assimilation, and the complicated intersections of race and

0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:42.440
<v Speaker 2>commerce in the post Slavery South unquote. Which the point

0:35:42.440 --> 0:35:46.120
<v Speaker 2>being that Ryan Kugler made so many intentional choices when

0:35:46.200 --> 0:35:52.080
<v Speaker 2>it comes to the motifs present in the movie. Because

0:35:52.080 --> 0:35:54.400
<v Speaker 2>I do want to talk a lot more about money

0:35:54.440 --> 0:35:58.080
<v Speaker 2>and currency and negotiation.

0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:01.759
<v Speaker 3>And like that, because this Vivie very firmly says capitalism

0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:07.000
<v Speaker 3>will not save us, correct, And I just Ryan Cougler's awesome,

0:36:07.200 --> 0:36:11.400
<v Speaker 3>Like he both says that and directs billion dollar movies.

0:36:11.440 --> 0:36:14.359
<v Speaker 3>And you're like, yeah, it's working for me. I don't know,

0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:19.880
<v Speaker 3>it's complicated. I didn't realize because I didn't watch much

0:36:20.000 --> 0:36:23.279
<v Speaker 3>of the press junket for this movie, but that, like

0:36:23.360 --> 0:36:27.640
<v Speaker 3>Ryan Cougler gave a series of really great interviews about

0:36:27.840 --> 0:36:30.239
<v Speaker 3>various aspects of the movies, and they're like and there's

0:36:30.280 --> 0:36:32.120
<v Speaker 3>so much to talk about, but that this was like

0:36:32.160 --> 0:36:39.040
<v Speaker 3>a pretty personal story for him because he's famously from Oakland,

0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:44.440
<v Speaker 3>but he had his grandfather or no, sorry, his uncle.

0:36:45.080 --> 0:36:48.520
<v Speaker 3>He was originally from Mississippi, and so a lot of

0:36:48.520 --> 0:36:53.200
<v Speaker 3>this story was inspired by both the music and the

0:36:53.280 --> 0:36:55.680
<v Speaker 3>history that he heard from his uncle when he was

0:36:55.800 --> 0:36:59.440
<v Speaker 3>very young. And you know, says basically that he didn't

0:36:59.760 --> 0:37:03.879
<v Speaker 3>really think that much about what this period of time

0:37:03.920 --> 0:37:06.200
<v Speaker 3>would have actually been like in the way that no

0:37:06.239 --> 0:37:09.040
<v Speaker 3>one is actually really listening to their uncles until it's

0:37:09.120 --> 0:37:14.160
<v Speaker 3>too late kind of thing, but that he realized that

0:37:14.280 --> 0:37:16.799
<v Speaker 3>he had this sort of wealth of experience through his

0:37:16.840 --> 0:37:21.319
<v Speaker 3>own family to talk about this period of time in

0:37:21.360 --> 0:37:27.400
<v Speaker 3>the South. His wife, Zinzy Kugler, who I also learned

0:37:27.840 --> 0:37:32.759
<v Speaker 3>through researching this movie that their first date was to

0:37:32.800 --> 0:37:35.920
<v Speaker 3>see Bring It On in Oakland, which I love.

0:37:36.960 --> 0:37:39.480
<v Speaker 2>I know, wait, like back in ninety nine when it

0:37:39.520 --> 0:37:39.839
<v Speaker 2>came out.

0:37:39.960 --> 0:37:42.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, they've been together since they were like young. It's

0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:45.840
<v Speaker 3>very very sweet. So that's just a fun fact. But

0:37:46.040 --> 0:37:49.439
<v Speaker 3>that both of their families were really helpful in sort

0:37:49.440 --> 0:37:52.719
<v Speaker 3>of like building out the historical specificity. Ryan Cougler was

0:37:52.760 --> 0:37:56.360
<v Speaker 3>thinking about his uncles, he was thinking about the generation

0:37:56.480 --> 0:38:00.479
<v Speaker 3>before them, and I guess that as Zinzi Coogler also

0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:04.560
<v Speaker 3>had living elderly relatives who had also lived in the

0:38:04.600 --> 0:38:07.279
<v Speaker 3>South in this time, and that this was like very

0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:11.080
<v Speaker 3>much what he was pulling from. And you can feel

0:38:11.280 --> 0:38:15.400
<v Speaker 3>that like historical specificity here even in the middle of

0:38:15.400 --> 0:38:19.239
<v Speaker 3>a vampire movie, which is like who knows how he

0:38:19.280 --> 0:38:19.600
<v Speaker 3>did that?

0:38:20.160 --> 0:38:22.880
<v Speaker 4>And I do guess this is the point where I

0:38:22.960 --> 0:38:25.200
<v Speaker 4>because I want you to give the synopsis first, but

0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:28.920
<v Speaker 4>I will now dive into some of my deeper connections

0:38:28.960 --> 0:38:29.640
<v Speaker 4>with the film.

0:38:29.880 --> 0:38:30.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:38:30.200 --> 0:38:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Please.

0:38:31.000 --> 0:38:38.239
<v Speaker 4>Similarly, my maternal grandfather is from the Mississippi Delta and

0:38:38.880 --> 0:38:42.000
<v Speaker 4>did move to Chicago as part of the northern migration.

0:38:42.840 --> 0:38:47.480
<v Speaker 4>Also may or may not have allegedly hit some ties

0:38:47.560 --> 0:38:49.320
<v Speaker 4>with the mafia.

0:38:49.440 --> 0:38:54.799
<v Speaker 3>Allegedly, it happens, It happens, and we're not judging well,

0:38:54.840 --> 0:39:01.000
<v Speaker 3>as this movie explores, because of the cycle of poverty

0:39:01.080 --> 0:39:04.320
<v Speaker 3>and because of racism and class disparity.

0:39:04.000 --> 0:39:08.440
<v Speaker 4>And also, like many black people, particularly of my generation,

0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:13.560
<v Speaker 4>I had some sketchy uncles I absolutely adored, but they

0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:17.839
<v Speaker 4>were not good role models. Sadly, big bed Bill, who

0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:21.280
<v Speaker 4>went on to be known as Sweet William, passed away

0:39:21.480 --> 0:39:25.520
<v Speaker 4>before he could show me the sights. There were floating

0:39:25.560 --> 0:39:29.120
<v Speaker 4>quotations there for listeners at home, and I feel like

0:39:29.160 --> 0:39:33.080
<v Speaker 4>the sites are alluded to in this film as well

0:39:35.040 --> 0:39:38.040
<v Speaker 4>for those of you who know. But yeah, so in

0:39:38.160 --> 0:39:40.520
<v Speaker 4>a lot of ways, watching the film, it did hit

0:39:40.600 --> 0:39:44.600
<v Speaker 4>on a lot of my own personal family background. So

0:39:44.680 --> 0:39:48.960
<v Speaker 4>it's very personal, very real to me. Definitely touched on

0:39:49.160 --> 0:39:54.880
<v Speaker 4>a lot of themes of my childhood and just the

0:39:55.080 --> 0:39:58.799
<v Speaker 4>legacy that has been passed down through my family. The

0:39:58.880 --> 0:40:03.040
<v Speaker 4>other side of my mom family is also Creole, so

0:40:03.160 --> 0:40:07.120
<v Speaker 4>we do also have an entire section of the family

0:40:07.160 --> 0:40:11.239
<v Speaker 4>that we don't speak to because they were able to

0:40:12.160 --> 0:40:14.719
<v Speaker 4>pass as white and chose to do so.

0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:19.160
<v Speaker 2>And I mean that might relate to a conversation we

0:40:19.200 --> 0:40:21.840
<v Speaker 2>can have at some point about Mary Mary, the Hailey

0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:27.919
<v Speaker 2>Steinfeld character. But yeah, there's so much to dive into. Yeah,

0:40:28.160 --> 0:40:34.680
<v Speaker 2>can we talk about the motif slash theme of class, money, currency, trade,

0:40:34.840 --> 0:40:40.400
<v Speaker 2>and negotiation. So, as we mentioned in the recap, most

0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:43.320
<v Speaker 2>of the characters we see in this movie are black

0:40:43.360 --> 0:40:47.600
<v Speaker 2>people trapped in poverty. They are only a few generations

0:40:47.680 --> 0:40:51.839
<v Speaker 2>removed from slavery. Many of the characters we see are

0:40:52.000 --> 0:41:00.000
<v Speaker 2>sharecroppers working on plantations. We see them use currency called plantations.

0:41:00.560 --> 0:41:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Some of that's like paper money, some of it's wooden coins.

0:41:04.280 --> 0:41:08.560
<v Speaker 2>This is currency that was paid to plantation workers sharecroppers

0:41:09.080 --> 0:41:13.880
<v Speaker 2>that could only be spent at plantation run stores. So

0:41:14.200 --> 0:41:17.640
<v Speaker 2>it was basically just a way to trap black sharecroppers

0:41:18.080 --> 0:41:20.920
<v Speaker 2>in the cycle of poverty and keep them in debt.

0:41:21.080 --> 0:41:22.920
<v Speaker 3>And as well as I mean, I feel like there

0:41:22.920 --> 0:41:27.400
<v Speaker 3>were a series of intentional shots of and this is

0:41:27.440 --> 0:41:31.600
<v Speaker 3>like kind of demonstrated towards the beginning between Sammy and

0:41:31.640 --> 0:41:37.640
<v Speaker 3>the Twins, where Sammy, like many young people, is focused

0:41:37.719 --> 0:41:39.680
<v Speaker 3>on being like I just have to get out of

0:41:39.719 --> 0:41:41.840
<v Speaker 3>where I am, and if I can get out of

0:41:41.840 --> 0:41:44.880
<v Speaker 3>where I am, I'm going to be in a better place,

0:41:44.880 --> 0:41:47.560
<v Speaker 3>because anywhere is better than here, right, Like the character

0:41:47.600 --> 0:41:51.279
<v Speaker 3>we recognize and the twins who have just spent a

0:41:51.320 --> 0:41:54.680
<v Speaker 3>lot of time in Chicago, they have the sort of

0:41:54.719 --> 0:41:59.600
<v Speaker 3>wisdom to be like, okay, But and then as they're

0:41:59.640 --> 0:42:05.160
<v Speaker 3>having the conversation, they're surrounded by how even though you know,

0:42:05.719 --> 0:42:10.840
<v Speaker 3>chattel slavery is technically abolished, they are passing through majority

0:42:11.080 --> 0:42:15.720
<v Speaker 3>black chain gangs. They're passing through prison labor, We're meeting

0:42:15.840 --> 0:42:19.040
<v Speaker 3>sharecroppers who are being ripped off right and left. Like

0:42:19.719 --> 0:42:24.640
<v Speaker 3>the whole environment of this movie is intentionally reminding you

0:42:25.480 --> 0:42:28.799
<v Speaker 3>that white supremacy is finding a way. Regardless.

0:42:29.719 --> 0:42:33.279
<v Speaker 4>You do bring up a good point where the montage

0:42:33.400 --> 0:42:36.799
<v Speaker 4>of traveling through time doesn't necessarily have to be dissected

0:42:36.920 --> 0:42:40.040
<v Speaker 4>more since it is the theme of the entire film,

0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:45.279
<v Speaker 4>since you know, it is ostensibly a period piece, but

0:42:45.960 --> 0:42:51.080
<v Speaker 4>the reverberations of that period are still very much present

0:42:51.520 --> 0:42:52.360
<v Speaker 4>even right now.

0:42:52.640 --> 0:42:56.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and there's that scene where Sammy is, you know,

0:42:56.400 --> 0:42:59.520
<v Speaker 2>he's telling his cousins, I want to leave this area.

0:42:59.560 --> 0:43:02.239
<v Speaker 2>I want to go to Chicago. He seems to think

0:43:02.280 --> 0:43:05.640
<v Speaker 2>that because there are no Jim Crow laws there, that

0:43:06.239 --> 0:43:09.080
<v Speaker 2>maybe he won't have to deal with racism, and the

0:43:09.120 --> 0:43:14.880
<v Speaker 2>twins are like, that is incorrect. And they've been able

0:43:14.920 --> 0:43:19.799
<v Speaker 2>to to some extent escape this cycle of poverty via

0:43:20.040 --> 0:43:23.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, bootlegging and organized crime and things like that.

0:43:23.120 --> 0:43:25.640
<v Speaker 3>But it's also like, is it stealing if it's from

0:43:26.200 --> 0:43:29.160
<v Speaker 3>fucking scumbag white supremacists. It isn't. It is not, but

0:43:29.520 --> 0:43:32.000
<v Speaker 3>it does feel I don't know, let me let me

0:43:32.000 --> 0:43:34.640
<v Speaker 3>know what you both think. It feels like at the beginning,

0:43:35.040 --> 0:43:39.760
<v Speaker 3>the twins feeling is that money is the only means

0:43:39.800 --> 0:43:43.719
<v Speaker 3>of escape, and then the movie kind of dissects why

0:43:43.760 --> 0:43:44.680
<v Speaker 3>that is not true.

0:43:45.040 --> 0:43:49.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And really, what the theme is touching on is

0:43:49.400 --> 0:43:53.960
<v Speaker 4>this phenomenon of black capitalism and the assumption that we

0:43:54.200 --> 0:43:58.080
<v Speaker 4>can wealth our way out of white supremacy.

0:43:58.520 --> 0:44:01.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, which is like a I mean it is. I mean,

0:44:01.800 --> 0:44:04.439
<v Speaker 3>I know everyone who made this movie is well aware

0:44:04.480 --> 0:44:07.600
<v Speaker 3>of this, but it does feel, in spite of taking

0:44:07.640 --> 0:44:12.320
<v Speaker 3>place ninety two years ago, still very like we're asking

0:44:12.360 --> 0:44:13.520
<v Speaker 3>the same questions now.

0:44:14.280 --> 0:44:20.560
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, Yeah, because there are various conversations about freedom, how

0:44:20.560 --> 0:44:23.080
<v Speaker 2>to achieve that as a black person in the gym

0:44:23.120 --> 0:44:29.080
<v Speaker 2>Crow South, And there's a line where Smoke is talking

0:44:29.280 --> 0:44:32.680
<v Speaker 2>to Annie and he's saying something like, I've been all

0:44:32.680 --> 0:44:36.160
<v Speaker 2>over the world. We also learned that Smoke and Stack

0:44:36.480 --> 0:44:42.880
<v Speaker 2>were World War One veterans, and we're presumably overseas in Europe.

0:44:43.719 --> 0:44:47.080
<v Speaker 3>See, this is on my public school education, not to

0:44:47.120 --> 0:44:49.400
<v Speaker 3>say private would be better. This is on my education.

0:44:50.520 --> 0:44:52.520
<v Speaker 3>I wrote down World War two and now that you

0:44:52.560 --> 0:44:56.480
<v Speaker 3>say that was like nineteen thirty two, No, that would

0:44:56.520 --> 0:44:59.960
<v Speaker 3>not have been possible got it, got it.

0:45:00.000 --> 0:45:02.480
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, Smoke says that he's been all over the

0:45:02.480 --> 0:45:06.360
<v Speaker 2>world and he's never seen magic or ghosts or demons,

0:45:06.840 --> 0:45:09.040
<v Speaker 2>just power, and the only thing that can get you

0:45:09.080 --> 0:45:11.960
<v Speaker 2>that is money. First of all, he spoke too soon,

0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:15.960
<v Speaker 2>because he will be seeing demons very shortly. Second, yes,

0:45:16.200 --> 0:45:19.400
<v Speaker 2>money does give people access to power, but he seems

0:45:19.440 --> 0:45:22.239
<v Speaker 2>to be of the mindset that again, he and his

0:45:22.360 --> 0:45:28.040
<v Speaker 2>community will achieve liberation via capitalism. But we know that

0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:31.480
<v Speaker 2>capitalism is one of the major things that prevents black

0:45:31.520 --> 0:45:34.080
<v Speaker 2>liberation or liberation of any kind.

0:45:34.520 --> 0:45:38.080
<v Speaker 4>And again, you know, it's important to note that the

0:45:38.239 --> 0:45:44.000
<v Speaker 4>reason the vampires are essentially invited in is because the

0:45:44.160 --> 0:45:48.439
<v Speaker 4>money that is being used by the black people it's

0:45:48.880 --> 0:45:53.600
<v Speaker 4>ostensibly not good enough. You can't keep the business open

0:45:53.880 --> 0:45:57.640
<v Speaker 4>on the black dollar alone. You also need the white

0:45:57.680 --> 0:46:03.440
<v Speaker 4>dollar and naturally have the Uh, we're going to go

0:46:03.480 --> 0:46:06.480
<v Speaker 4>ahead and continue saying white passing, but also, let's face it,

0:46:06.520 --> 0:46:11.560
<v Speaker 4>white the white woman who has this greater proximity and

0:46:11.640 --> 0:46:17.360
<v Speaker 4>comfort with white culture, who then feels that it is

0:46:17.480 --> 0:46:22.040
<v Speaker 4>safe and ostensibly perhaps even her duty as sort of

0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:27.600
<v Speaker 4>a white savior figure, you know, just perhaps incidentally named Mary,

0:46:29.640 --> 0:46:34.040
<v Speaker 4>to go out and bring in the white dollar to

0:46:34.320 --> 0:46:40.080
<v Speaker 4>ostensibly rescue or lift up the black community.

0:46:40.560 --> 0:46:46.200
<v Speaker 2>Right, it's also gold coins that mister Vampire has, so

0:46:46.239 --> 0:46:52.080
<v Speaker 2>it's it's this sort of almost like universally accepted form

0:46:52.360 --> 0:46:56.320
<v Speaker 2>of currency. But yeah, because we see a man wanting

0:46:56.400 --> 0:47:00.319
<v Speaker 2>to pay for his drink with the wooden nickels that

0:47:00.560 --> 0:47:05.920
<v Speaker 2>he received as payment on the plantation, and Smoke is

0:47:06.000 --> 0:47:10.160
<v Speaker 2>very reticent to accept them, and Stack and Annie and

0:47:10.200 --> 0:47:14.839
<v Speaker 2>pushback say like, we need to accept the money that

0:47:14.960 --> 0:47:17.800
<v Speaker 2>they have so that we can cultivate a space where

0:47:17.960 --> 0:47:21.120
<v Speaker 2>the patrons feel like they belong here. It's for them,

0:47:21.280 --> 0:47:23.480
<v Speaker 2>their money is good here. But there's like all this

0:47:23.800 --> 0:47:28.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of push and pull on what currency is acceptable.

0:47:28.080 --> 0:47:32.359
<v Speaker 4>And worth Noting the earlier scene in the movie where

0:47:32.400 --> 0:47:38.320
<v Speaker 4>Annie's in her store selling groceries to children for random

0:47:38.360 --> 0:47:39.400
<v Speaker 4>scraps of paper.

0:47:39.719 --> 0:47:47.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, this movie has such a careful relationship with colonized

0:47:47.840 --> 0:47:53.319
<v Speaker 3>people's across a very wide spectrum, right where I think

0:47:53.360 --> 0:47:56.279
<v Speaker 3>that the colonize people that we don't get to know

0:47:56.760 --> 0:47:59.520
<v Speaker 3>are the native community at the very beginning with the

0:47:59.560 --> 0:48:04.400
<v Speaker 3>chalk Tak characters, the Chalktaw people we meet in one scene,

0:48:05.600 --> 0:48:08.440
<v Speaker 3>which I don't think is like you know, a malicious

0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:10.279
<v Speaker 3>choice at all, but it is. It does sort of

0:48:10.360 --> 0:48:14.320
<v Speaker 3>hit the point home that because the chalk Talk community

0:48:14.520 --> 0:48:21.120
<v Speaker 3>is introduced very intentionally in relation to this fucking clan couple,

0:48:22.000 --> 0:48:23.840
<v Speaker 3>that it would have been I think, like one of

0:48:23.840 --> 0:48:26.120
<v Speaker 3>the notes I have about this movie is that it

0:48:26.160 --> 0:48:29.799
<v Speaker 3>would have been very possible to introduce a chalk Tak

0:48:29.880 --> 0:48:32.480
<v Speaker 3>character who we get to know and who we get

0:48:32.520 --> 0:48:37.040
<v Speaker 3>to know in relation to everyone else in the movie,

0:48:37.200 --> 0:48:41.120
<v Speaker 3>because I think that this movie, we know is capable

0:48:41.760 --> 0:48:46.279
<v Speaker 3>of presenting a very diverse and specific community. I mean,

0:48:46.320 --> 0:48:49.680
<v Speaker 3>we know that because the people that are trapped in

0:48:49.719 --> 0:48:53.319
<v Speaker 3>the juke joint. We have the white woman in the

0:48:53.360 --> 0:48:58.160
<v Speaker 3>form of Mary, we have a majority black clientele and management,

0:48:58.239 --> 0:49:02.319
<v Speaker 3>and we have the Chinese family. And Yeah, one of

0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:06.360
<v Speaker 3>the things that I wish and and could have happened

0:49:06.640 --> 0:49:11.520
<v Speaker 3>is to meaningfully include the chalk Talk characters, because they

0:49:11.560 --> 0:49:15.120
<v Speaker 3>do appear intentionally, but not in a way that we

0:49:15.280 --> 0:49:18.520
<v Speaker 3>know who any character's name is or.

0:49:18.880 --> 0:49:22.600
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, they're just sort of these vague, magical people off

0:49:22.680 --> 0:49:23.240
<v Speaker 4>to the side.

0:49:23.440 --> 0:49:28.000
<v Speaker 2>I know about the vampire and are chasing him, but

0:49:28.160 --> 0:49:30.640
<v Speaker 2>we don't know how they know about or what the

0:49:30.880 --> 0:49:32.440
<v Speaker 2>backstory is there.

0:49:32.200 --> 0:49:34.719
<v Speaker 3>Which is and it's a shame because it's like, this

0:49:34.800 --> 0:49:37.680
<v Speaker 3>is a movie that is open to magic. It is

0:49:37.719 --> 0:49:41.920
<v Speaker 3>a vampire movie. Yeah, and so it's like not bringing

0:49:41.960 --> 0:49:48.040
<v Speaker 3>in the chalk talk characters felt like a clear missed opportunity.

0:49:48.520 --> 0:49:49.560
<v Speaker 4>Agree, But the other.

0:49:50.280 --> 0:49:52.200
<v Speaker 3>The other communities we get to know here. I mean,

0:49:52.520 --> 0:49:55.319
<v Speaker 3>I think that there was a lot made of and

0:49:55.400 --> 0:49:58.920
<v Speaker 3>I have a couple quotes here about the choice of

0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:07.080
<v Speaker 3>presenting the black characters in relation to this Irish vampire

0:50:07.280 --> 0:50:08.000
<v Speaker 3>because the.

0:50:07.880 --> 0:50:10.719
<v Speaker 4>Irish choice is very intentional.

0:50:10.480 --> 0:50:14.440
<v Speaker 3>Very intentional, and like, couldn't be there they are doing

0:50:15.200 --> 0:50:19.520
<v Speaker 3>the dance, and so as an Irish I was like,

0:50:19.600 --> 0:50:22.480
<v Speaker 3>let's let's fight out more. And Ryan Cougler, I mean,

0:50:22.520 --> 0:50:26.359
<v Speaker 3>he had a lot to say about this choice, and

0:50:26.440 --> 0:50:29.279
<v Speaker 3>so I just wanted to share sort of his expansion

0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:32.200
<v Speaker 3>on why he chose that, because I think it has

0:50:32.239 --> 0:50:36.239
<v Speaker 3>a lot to say about how white communities who have

0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:41.000
<v Speaker 3>been colonized make a big deal about having been colonized,

0:50:41.040 --> 0:50:46.160
<v Speaker 3>but ultimately aligned with whiteness over other communities that have

0:50:46.280 --> 0:50:50.760
<v Speaker 3>been oppressed in the same way. So Ryan Cougler told

0:50:50.920 --> 0:50:55.640
<v Speaker 3>Indie Wire, I'm obsessed with Irish folk music. My kids

0:50:55.640 --> 0:50:58.759
<v Speaker 3>are obsessed with it. My first name is Irish. I

0:50:58.800 --> 0:51:02.040
<v Speaker 3>think it's not known how much crossover there is between

0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:05.160
<v Speaker 3>African American culture and Irish culture and how much that

0:51:05.200 --> 0:51:08.759
<v Speaker 3>stuff's loved in our community. It was very important that

0:51:08.840 --> 0:51:13.040
<v Speaker 3>our master Vampire in this movie was unique and specific

0:51:13.200 --> 0:51:16.279
<v Speaker 3>as the situation was. It was important to me that

0:51:16.320 --> 0:51:19.080
<v Speaker 3>he was old, but also that he came from a

0:51:19.160 --> 0:51:22.920
<v Speaker 3>time that pre existed these racial definitions, so that he

0:51:22.960 --> 0:51:26.120
<v Speaker 3>would be extremely odd and that it would all seem

0:51:26.200 --> 0:51:29.200
<v Speaker 3>odd to him, but also that he would see it

0:51:29.239 --> 0:51:31.960
<v Speaker 3>for what it was and offer a sweet deal, if

0:51:31.960 --> 0:51:35.000
<v Speaker 3>that makes sense, and that the music was just as

0:51:35.040 --> 0:51:40.440
<v Speaker 3>beautiful so I mean, and there's a number of other

0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:43.920
<v Speaker 3>interviews he gave to this, but that was how I learned,

0:51:43.920 --> 0:51:48.239
<v Speaker 3>basically that the Irish Vampire was intended to be from

0:51:48.280 --> 0:51:52.840
<v Speaker 3>the eleven hundreds, when the English first colonized Ireland, where

0:51:53.600 --> 0:51:59.600
<v Speaker 3>this character is I think intended to be targeting Sammy,

0:52:00.880 --> 0:52:04.759
<v Speaker 3>coming from the place of I want to steal your

0:52:04.880 --> 0:52:08.960
<v Speaker 3>culture and your music because I want it to bring

0:52:09.120 --> 0:52:14.719
<v Speaker 3>me back to my culture instead of anything else. It

0:52:14.800 --> 0:52:18.359
<v Speaker 3>is from a place of violent assimilation, which I feel

0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:22.400
<v Speaker 3>like comes through in this movie through Christianity and religion

0:52:22.480 --> 0:52:24.960
<v Speaker 3>like the role that religion had in this movie. I

0:52:25.000 --> 0:52:27.480
<v Speaker 3>don't think I fully appreciated at first.

0:52:27.800 --> 0:52:31.360
<v Speaker 2>Say I have a whole spiel on that. Yeah, I

0:52:31.400 --> 0:52:36.440
<v Speaker 2>mean pre the vampire attack. There are many moments of

0:52:36.480 --> 0:52:40.960
<v Speaker 2>this movie that sent her black joy. There's this focus

0:52:41.000 --> 0:52:46.120
<v Speaker 2>on community and music and dance and fun and letting

0:52:46.200 --> 0:52:52.279
<v Speaker 2>loose and sexual pleasure and things basically things that Sammy's

0:52:52.520 --> 0:52:57.239
<v Speaker 2>pastor father would consider a sin. And he very explicitly

0:52:57.280 --> 0:53:01.680
<v Speaker 2>says this to Sammy, where he is like, don't hang

0:53:01.719 --> 0:53:04.160
<v Speaker 2>around those sinners.

0:53:04.280 --> 0:53:07.600
<v Speaker 3>That's the name of the movie. And then everyone cheered

0:53:07.719 --> 0:53:12.439
<v Speaker 3>in the in the crowd, yes, exactly the ticket bar.

0:53:13.160 --> 0:53:21.040
<v Speaker 2>But this ignores the concept of joy as resistance and

0:53:21.400 --> 0:53:25.560
<v Speaker 2>rest and relaxation as resistance.

0:53:25.280 --> 0:53:28.960
<v Speaker 3>And music and art as resistance. I feel like that

0:53:29.040 --> 0:53:32.000
<v Speaker 3>is what that's the whole scene. The quote unquote like

0:53:32.320 --> 0:53:38.239
<v Speaker 3>the scene is about, is about how black art and

0:53:38.360 --> 0:53:42.600
<v Speaker 3>black culture has a role in joy and resistance.

0:53:43.000 --> 0:53:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and I feel like a lot of you know,

0:53:46.680 --> 0:53:52.359
<v Speaker 2>organized Western religion misconstrues these acts of joy and rest

0:53:52.400 --> 0:53:56.440
<v Speaker 2>and relaxation and music and sexual pleasure and things like

0:53:56.440 --> 0:54:01.600
<v Speaker 2>that as sin. And of course there's supremacy very entrenched

0:54:01.640 --> 0:54:04.600
<v Speaker 2>in that in terms of when white people do things,

0:54:04.760 --> 0:54:08.320
<v Speaker 2>it's considered art and culture. When black people do things,

0:54:08.560 --> 0:54:12.840
<v Speaker 2>it's seen as witchcraft or hedonism. So obviously there's a

0:54:12.960 --> 0:54:17.760
<v Speaker 2>huge double standard there. But my point is that rest

0:54:17.880 --> 0:54:22.760
<v Speaker 2>and art and music and joy as resistance is often underestimated,

0:54:23.000 --> 0:54:26.560
<v Speaker 2>but it is very important and can be very effective.

0:54:27.840 --> 0:54:31.600
<v Speaker 2>But then we see the white vampires come in and

0:54:31.840 --> 0:54:35.840
<v Speaker 2>interfere with this night of joy and rest and music

0:54:36.400 --> 0:54:39.520
<v Speaker 2>and try to steal from this community.

0:54:40.080 --> 0:54:44.880
<v Speaker 4>But I do want to know that there is complexity

0:54:44.960 --> 0:54:49.279
<v Speaker 4>to it. There is, and I feel we're noting this,

0:54:49.440 --> 0:54:53.080
<v Speaker 4>but you know, there is the obvious layer of the

0:54:53.239 --> 0:54:58.480
<v Speaker 4>vampires are coming in stealing, but it's more multi layer

0:54:58.600 --> 0:55:04.600
<v Speaker 4>than that, because Remick is offering actual currency and Remick

0:55:04.920 --> 0:55:10.000
<v Speaker 4>is offering to bring in his music as well, So

0:55:10.480 --> 0:55:15.520
<v Speaker 4>there is an exchange. It's not being like a segregation.

0:55:16.440 --> 0:55:21.920
<v Speaker 4>There is a cultural exchange that is attempting to take place,

0:55:22.560 --> 0:55:30.600
<v Speaker 4>and Remick is offering this ostensibly gift of immortality, but

0:55:31.640 --> 0:55:36.680
<v Speaker 4>at what cost. So there is something being offered, it's

0:55:36.920 --> 0:55:40.880
<v Speaker 4>just a steep cost do you make that exchange.

0:55:41.360 --> 0:55:46.800
<v Speaker 3>Which, again it feels very intentional on Ryan Kugler's part

0:55:47.280 --> 0:55:55.440
<v Speaker 3>to establish space like negative space, but space between the

0:55:55.560 --> 0:56:01.520
<v Speaker 3>KKK and the Twins and the Blackmmunity and the sharecroppers,

0:56:01.920 --> 0:56:04.960
<v Speaker 3>where there are like he is like getting into all

0:56:05.000 --> 0:56:08.520
<v Speaker 3>of these shades of gray of Like there are communities

0:56:08.680 --> 0:56:13.960
<v Speaker 3>of white people who have been displaced from their homelands

0:56:14.719 --> 0:56:19.239
<v Speaker 3>who have chosen to ultimately align with whiteness, and that

0:56:19.360 --> 0:56:22.759
<v Speaker 3>is the vampiric quality of them. But they exist in

0:56:22.800 --> 0:56:28.160
<v Speaker 3>this separate, nefarious space that I don't know, Like I

0:56:28.600 --> 0:56:32.520
<v Speaker 3>don't I haven't seen very often addressed that there are

0:56:32.600 --> 0:56:36.919
<v Speaker 3>so many layers to what the characters in this movie

0:56:37.000 --> 0:56:42.360
<v Speaker 3>are dealing with, and that like the vampires are horrible

0:56:42.520 --> 0:56:47.160
<v Speaker 3>and evil and wrong, and they also are existing in

0:56:47.200 --> 0:56:51.560
<v Speaker 3>a different reality than other villains in this story.

0:56:52.000 --> 0:56:54.240
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, they are in fact better than the Klan.

0:56:54.960 --> 0:56:58.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, which is like a very low bar to clear,

0:56:59.239 --> 0:57:03.160
<v Speaker 3>but there they are. Yeah. I that that relationship I

0:57:03.200 --> 0:57:09.160
<v Speaker 3>feel like I had never or i'd rarely seen made explicit.

0:57:09.680 --> 0:57:12.080
<v Speaker 3>And also the role that related, So getting back to

0:57:12.120 --> 0:57:17.240
<v Speaker 3>like religion, the role that religion has as a colonizing tool,

0:57:17.520 --> 0:57:22.920
<v Speaker 3>where there is like a very specific interaction between I

0:57:23.240 --> 0:57:27.440
<v Speaker 3>believe stack they're both Michael B.

0:57:27.560 --> 0:57:31.200
<v Speaker 2>Jordan and the brand One or the blue one.

0:57:31.440 --> 0:57:33.920
<v Speaker 3>I don't know one of them was a vampire already.

0:57:34.560 --> 0:57:38.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh Stack, Stack is the one who turns into a vampire.

0:57:38.080 --> 0:57:42.080
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so Smoke. There is an interaction that Smoke has

0:57:42.360 --> 0:57:47.160
<v Speaker 3>with the Irish vampires that felt in retrospect very explicit,

0:57:47.640 --> 0:57:50.919
<v Speaker 3>where they're saying the Lord's Prayer and they're saying it

0:57:51.160 --> 0:57:56.000
<v Speaker 3>very irishly. They're using trespasses instead of sins, even though

0:57:56.040 --> 0:58:01.040
<v Speaker 3>it's the movie Sinners. And then he says explicitly, like

0:58:01.720 --> 0:58:04.240
<v Speaker 3>I learned you know, I'm summarizing, but like I learned

0:58:04.240 --> 0:58:08.440
<v Speaker 3>that prayer from the people who colonized us. I hate

0:58:08.480 --> 0:58:12.000
<v Speaker 3>them so much, but I still find comfort in the prayer,

0:58:12.720 --> 0:58:18.520
<v Speaker 3>and then he weaponizes it against Smoke, and like that

0:58:18.680 --> 0:58:23.400
<v Speaker 3>sort of level of all of the aggressions that have

0:58:23.480 --> 0:58:26.520
<v Speaker 3>to happen over a period of hundreds of thousands of

0:58:26.600 --> 0:58:30.000
<v Speaker 3>years to get to the point where no one can

0:58:30.040 --> 0:58:34.040
<v Speaker 3>align with each other and that these communities that should

0:58:34.360 --> 0:58:38.200
<v Speaker 3>actually be able to help each other won't. And it's

0:58:38.280 --> 0:58:42.760
<v Speaker 3>because that displays Irish communities are aligning with whiteness because

0:58:42.760 --> 0:58:46.080
<v Speaker 3>it makes them safer, And that's like what Mary's character

0:58:46.800 --> 0:58:48.640
<v Speaker 3>boils down too exactly.

0:58:49.080 --> 0:58:55.040
<v Speaker 4>It's essentially the safety of proximity to one's own oppressor absolutely, yeah, yeah,

0:58:55.080 --> 0:58:58.120
<v Speaker 4>and the invitation to become the oppressor.

0:58:58.280 --> 0:59:02.919
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, which most people will accept because it will give

0:59:02.960 --> 0:59:07.760
<v Speaker 2>them some sense of power, even if it's not actual power.

0:59:07.800 --> 0:59:10.360
<v Speaker 2>They'll perceive it as, oh, and now I have power

0:59:11.200 --> 0:59:12.520
<v Speaker 2>over others.

0:59:13.080 --> 0:59:18.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but Sinners explicitly makes it power that is tainted

0:59:18.840 --> 0:59:19.440
<v Speaker 3>and a curse.

0:59:21.760 --> 0:59:26.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, speaking of the characters who are women, I wish

0:59:26.880 --> 0:59:32.280
<v Speaker 2>in general that women were more meaningfully integrated into the story.

0:59:32.680 --> 0:59:37.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, let's talk about it. Yeah, let's talk about it.

0:59:38.160 --> 0:59:39.440
<v Speaker 3>Who was to go first?

0:59:40.280 --> 0:59:42.880
<v Speaker 4>I'm glad that we fully praised the film first.

0:59:44.680 --> 0:59:47.200
<v Speaker 2>The movie is doing a lot of things right, no

0:59:47.240 --> 0:59:47.960
<v Speaker 2>doubt about it.

0:59:48.320 --> 0:59:55.520
<v Speaker 4>This was not one of them. A great, very reductive

0:59:56.000 --> 1:00:01.040
<v Speaker 4>archetypes in my view. You know you have and I'm

1:00:01.080 --> 1:00:04.280
<v Speaker 4>going to mess this up, which is why I kept

1:00:04.840 --> 1:00:07.280
<v Speaker 4>my Wikipedia window open.

1:00:07.760 --> 1:00:10.640
<v Speaker 3>Hey, we all have, we all have.

1:00:12.320 --> 1:00:17.320
<v Speaker 4>Exactly make no mistake Grace. So we have. Grace and

1:00:17.400 --> 1:00:22.880
<v Speaker 4>Annie are both maternal figures, which of course gives them

1:00:23.480 --> 1:00:29.840
<v Speaker 4>a special sort of status. Parlene, sort of your rudimentary,

1:00:30.360 --> 1:00:33.760
<v Speaker 4>undeveloped Jezebel archetype.

1:00:34.160 --> 1:00:40.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Perline especially pained me because the performance is incredible

1:00:40.240 --> 1:00:44.240
<v Speaker 3>and there and like, you just cannot justify her beyond Sammy,

1:00:44.400 --> 1:00:45.480
<v Speaker 3>and that sucks.

1:00:45.800 --> 1:00:46.360
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1:00:46.440 --> 1:00:47.960
<v Speaker 2>The one thing I'll say about her that I did

1:00:47.960 --> 1:00:52.760
<v Speaker 2>appreciate is that we see a representation on screen of

1:00:52.800 --> 1:00:56.880
<v Speaker 2>a woman receiving oral sex, which we almost never see.

1:00:57.280 --> 1:00:59.560
<v Speaker 3>It's true I wanted to get off, but that's still

1:00:59.600 --> 1:01:00.840
<v Speaker 3>in really to Sammy.

1:01:01.240 --> 1:01:04.680
<v Speaker 2>To Sammy, Yes, yes, but you could also argue that

1:01:04.760 --> 1:01:08.160
<v Speaker 2>it's like this movie goes out of its way to

1:01:09.080 --> 1:01:12.880
<v Speaker 2>show female pleasure in a way that most movies don't

1:01:13.000 --> 1:01:13.560
<v Speaker 2>bother to.

1:01:13.880 --> 1:01:17.840
<v Speaker 4>And specifically black female pleasure. Yeah, you know. I think

1:01:17.840 --> 1:01:23.840
<v Speaker 4>it's also important to note that Annie is not this petite,

1:01:24.000 --> 1:01:31.320
<v Speaker 4>little Hollywood style vixen, but still absolutely given sexual power

1:01:32.000 --> 1:01:33.640
<v Speaker 4>within the context of the film.

1:01:33.880 --> 1:01:37.120
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm, absolutely to the point where it took me

1:01:37.240 --> 1:01:42.560
<v Speaker 2>by surprise that she is in a sex scene, just

1:01:42.600 --> 1:01:46.320
<v Speaker 2>because I'm so used to sex scenes in movies being

1:01:46.840 --> 1:01:51.480
<v Speaker 2>between two very thin people. Obviously, I'm not surprised that

1:01:51.560 --> 1:01:57.200
<v Speaker 2>anyone would be sexually attracted to her, like Musaku is gorgeous,

1:01:57.200 --> 1:02:01.320
<v Speaker 2>gorgeous person hot, but I was surprised that there was

1:02:01.360 --> 1:02:04.600
<v Speaker 2>a sex scene with a plus size woman.

1:02:04.600 --> 1:02:07.240
<v Speaker 4>Yes, a plus sized black woman. With Michael B.

1:02:07.400 --> 1:02:11.000
<v Speaker 2>Jordan exactly because most movies cannot conceive of the idea

1:02:11.120 --> 1:02:16.200
<v Speaker 2>that a thin, lean man who's as handsome as Michael B. Jordan,

1:02:16.320 --> 1:02:20.280
<v Speaker 2>for example, would be sexually attracted to a fat person.

1:02:20.760 --> 1:02:25.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it shouldn't be revolutionary and yet right exactly an

1:02:25.320 --> 1:02:26.920
<v Speaker 4>American cinema definitely is.

1:02:27.400 --> 1:02:29.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely yeah.

1:02:29.200 --> 1:02:32.640
<v Speaker 3>I mean, and Andy's character in general, I mean again,

1:02:32.720 --> 1:02:35.240
<v Speaker 3>it's I think that there are a lot of missed

1:02:35.240 --> 1:02:39.960
<v Speaker 3>opportunities with women in general. But Annie is my favorite

1:02:40.000 --> 1:02:43.959
<v Speaker 3>character in the movie. I think there is so much

1:02:44.000 --> 1:02:47.600
<v Speaker 3>to love about her, even though there couldn't should have

1:02:47.640 --> 1:02:50.280
<v Speaker 3>been more, but I really appreciate it. I mean, I

1:02:50.280 --> 1:02:55.360
<v Speaker 3>feel like her relationship to Whodoo does so much to

1:02:55.520 --> 1:02:58.080
<v Speaker 3>sort of bring us into the world of the movie

1:02:58.160 --> 1:03:01.240
<v Speaker 3>in a way that is very historically. They're living in

1:03:01.280 --> 1:03:06.920
<v Speaker 3>the South. Who do is spirituality that was originally developed

1:03:07.080 --> 1:03:13.200
<v Speaker 3>by enslaved people in the South that both honors the

1:03:13.320 --> 1:03:18.400
<v Speaker 3>time and place we're in and also is like something

1:03:18.640 --> 1:03:23.280
<v Speaker 3>about her that gives her authority. And she is not

1:03:23.600 --> 1:03:27.560
<v Speaker 3>dismissed for this. She is honored for it that and

1:03:27.560 --> 1:03:29.920
<v Speaker 3>and and other reasons. But it is one of the

1:03:29.960 --> 1:03:34.200
<v Speaker 3>major factors that whichever Michael B. Jordan she had a

1:03:34.240 --> 1:03:37.600
<v Speaker 3>relationship with. I struggle with both Smoke.

1:03:38.400 --> 1:03:40.919
<v Speaker 4>I can't believe you can't tell Michael B. Jordan's a part.

1:03:41.200 --> 1:03:44.720
<v Speaker 3>I know that's one is blue and one is red.

1:03:44.920 --> 1:03:48.600
<v Speaker 3>No cancel, be canceled, be no, but that it's something

1:03:48.680 --> 1:03:52.200
<v Speaker 3>that Smoke defers to her for which is another. I mean, like,

1:03:52.320 --> 1:03:57.800
<v Speaker 3>I feel like her character, even going on off on

1:03:58.280 --> 1:04:01.200
<v Speaker 3>what we were just talking about, that she is the

1:04:01.320 --> 1:04:05.640
<v Speaker 3>character that is most connected to spirituality and is never

1:04:05.760 --> 1:04:10.520
<v Speaker 3>dismissed for it, as so often we see very spiritual,

1:04:10.640 --> 1:04:15.760
<v Speaker 3>witchier characters dismissed for She is right. She is by

1:04:15.800 --> 1:04:21.440
<v Speaker 3>a wide margin, the most pragmatic character in the story.

1:04:21.360 --> 1:04:22.840
<v Speaker 4>And genuinely moral.

1:04:23.520 --> 1:04:27.040
<v Speaker 3>Yes, absolutely where I mean, And I think like a

1:04:27.120 --> 1:04:29.640
<v Speaker 3>clear demonstration of that that I hadn't noticed till, like

1:04:29.720 --> 1:04:34.200
<v Speaker 3>my last viewing was that she is both someone who

1:04:35.320 --> 1:04:40.480
<v Speaker 3>when the Irish vampire freaks ask well, why was Mary

1:04:40.520 --> 1:04:44.120
<v Speaker 3>allowed into the Duke joint, Annie is the first one

1:04:44.160 --> 1:04:46.880
<v Speaker 3>to say, because she's a part of our family. But

1:04:47.040 --> 1:04:50.480
<v Speaker 3>Annie is also the first to realize that Mary is

1:04:50.480 --> 1:04:52.600
<v Speaker 3>a vampire now and we have to get her the

1:04:52.640 --> 1:04:57.000
<v Speaker 3>fuck out, Like she is the only person in the

1:04:57.040 --> 1:05:00.760
<v Speaker 3>attire plot, who is able to see things for what

1:05:00.920 --> 1:05:05.960
<v Speaker 3>they are and also still love and feel And I

1:05:06.120 --> 1:05:08.720
<v Speaker 3>just I don't know, I appreciate her character so much.

1:05:09.440 --> 1:05:14.080
<v Speaker 3>The performance is amazing and yeah, I just love Annie.

1:05:14.240 --> 1:05:22.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, somehow captures a white spectrum of black womanhood despite

1:05:23.080 --> 1:05:26.840
<v Speaker 4>her limited screen time and dialogue.

1:05:27.400 --> 1:05:30.920
<v Speaker 3>Yes, that's the thing, is like there, and I don't

1:05:31.160 --> 1:05:33.919
<v Speaker 3>hold it against the character that, like, the last time

1:05:33.960 --> 1:05:38.520
<v Speaker 3>we see her, she is very firmly a mother, and

1:05:41.000 --> 1:05:43.160
<v Speaker 3>we know enough about her to know that is not

1:05:43.240 --> 1:05:46.560
<v Speaker 3>how her character is defined. But there's so much we

1:05:46.680 --> 1:05:49.200
<v Speaker 3>don't know about her where like we really only get

1:05:49.240 --> 1:05:52.600
<v Speaker 3>a glimpse of how clearly I mean, like when we

1:05:52.680 --> 1:05:55.760
<v Speaker 3>meet her and she is like doing that interaction with

1:05:56.120 --> 1:06:00.720
<v Speaker 3>the child when Smoke comes back, we get a clear

1:06:01.120 --> 1:06:04.560
<v Speaker 3>indication that she's very important to her community, but we

1:06:04.600 --> 1:06:06.480
<v Speaker 3>don't really get to see very much of that.

1:06:07.080 --> 1:06:11.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Yeah, she gets to be mother, savior and murder,

1:06:12.440 --> 1:06:16.360
<v Speaker 4>but not a lot of time to be a person.

1:06:17.080 --> 1:06:20.440
<v Speaker 3>And that fucking sounds Yeah yeah, well when you put

1:06:20.480 --> 1:06:23.120
<v Speaker 3>it that way, it sucks because we know her for

1:06:23.160 --> 1:06:26.439
<v Speaker 3>such a short time and it seems like, like, I mean,

1:06:26.520 --> 1:06:29.760
<v Speaker 3>it would have been great to see her with a

1:06:30.000 --> 1:06:35.520
<v Speaker 3>close friend, you know, just someone who she was not

1:06:36.240 --> 1:06:41.720
<v Speaker 3>actively feeling either uncomfortable around or beefing with, because I

1:06:41.720 --> 1:06:44.000
<v Speaker 3>feel like those are those are the characters who she's

1:06:44.040 --> 1:06:46.600
<v Speaker 3>mostly put around. It's like someone that she has reason

1:06:47.120 --> 1:06:49.000
<v Speaker 3>to feel a little uncomfortable with.

1:06:49.480 --> 1:06:50.040
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1:06:50.080 --> 1:06:53.480
<v Speaker 2>Also when she I think the first time I saw this,

1:06:53.800 --> 1:06:59.560
<v Speaker 2>when she is bitten by Stack, Stack's the one who

1:06:59.600 --> 1:07:05.400
<v Speaker 2>tries to turn her and then smoke her. Lover has

1:07:05.520 --> 1:07:08.960
<v Speaker 2>to kill her, and he honors her wish of killing

1:07:08.960 --> 1:07:12.800
<v Speaker 2>her before she turns into a vampire. When she is killed,

1:07:13.160 --> 1:07:16.240
<v Speaker 2>my brain immediately went to like, oh, no, like is

1:07:16.320 --> 1:07:19.680
<v Speaker 2>she being fridged? But I think this maybe doesn't really

1:07:19.760 --> 1:07:24.400
<v Speaker 2>count since pretty much every other character in the movie

1:07:24.440 --> 1:07:25.760
<v Speaker 2>dies as well.

1:07:25.920 --> 1:07:29.600
<v Speaker 4>Yes, so it is very thorough in the massacre.

1:07:29.320 --> 1:07:29.400
<v Speaker 3>But.

1:07:31.400 --> 1:07:35.600
<v Speaker 2>Pretty much everyone but Sammy and then the immortal couple

1:07:35.840 --> 1:07:39.080
<v Speaker 2>of Stack and Mary when they show up in nineteen

1:07:39.120 --> 1:07:41.080
<v Speaker 2>ninety two, they're still around. But uh.

1:07:41.360 --> 1:07:44.360
<v Speaker 4>It does also always bring me a special joy to

1:07:44.360 --> 1:07:48.120
<v Speaker 4>see black women survive cinema. Yeah, and we definitely do

1:07:48.200 --> 1:07:49.560
<v Speaker 4>not get that in this film.

1:07:49.600 --> 1:07:50.880
<v Speaker 2>We don't get that.

1:07:51.000 --> 1:07:55.680
<v Speaker 3>Here, no, which it is really frustrating because if we

1:07:56.000 --> 1:07:59.640
<v Speaker 3>meet to like Annie and Perline are both such strong

1:07:59.720 --> 1:08:02.520
<v Speaker 3>con and not to pick one er fore the other.

1:08:02.920 --> 1:08:06.200
<v Speaker 3>But how Annie doesn't get out of this movie I

1:08:06.240 --> 1:08:08.160
<v Speaker 3>will never understand exactly.

1:08:08.240 --> 1:08:11.200
<v Speaker 4>She's the only person with any sense from the start.

1:08:11.160 --> 1:08:14.120
<v Speaker 2>She has all the knowledge, she knows everything. She has

1:08:14.240 --> 1:08:19.120
<v Speaker 2>the best equipped to survive the movie, right, which again

1:08:19.160 --> 1:08:24.160
<v Speaker 2>the movie contextualizes with her background as a who do practitioner.

1:08:24.600 --> 1:08:26.240
<v Speaker 2>I also feel like this is one of the few

1:08:26.720 --> 1:08:31.519
<v Speaker 2>American movies at least that doesn't paint voodoo or who

1:08:31.600 --> 1:08:35.760
<v Speaker 2>dooo or any like African diasporic religions as some kind

1:08:35.800 --> 1:08:39.400
<v Speaker 2>of like evil sorcery, because that's what most of them do.

1:08:40.040 --> 1:08:43.000
<v Speaker 2>We talked about this a lot on the Princess Frog episode.

1:08:43.120 --> 1:08:47.040
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah, that the villain, Yeah, like the villain of

1:08:47.080 --> 1:08:51.439
<v Speaker 3>the Princess and the front that. Yeah, there's a whole

1:08:51.479 --> 1:08:52.320
<v Speaker 3>song about it.

1:08:52.520 --> 1:08:54.880
<v Speaker 2>But it seems like there was research that went into

1:08:55.360 --> 1:09:01.680
<v Speaker 2>this movie about you know, who do practice and healers.

1:09:02.520 --> 1:09:07.760
<v Speaker 2>I'll share a quote from Wumni Musaku in w magazine.

1:09:07.800 --> 1:09:10.920
<v Speaker 2>She was interviewed and asked about the role.

1:09:11.080 --> 1:09:12.840
<v Speaker 4>You promised us a TikTok video.

1:09:13.000 --> 1:09:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Okay, excuse me, I'm working on it. In the meantime,

1:09:20.840 --> 1:09:25.080
<v Speaker 2>she says this quote. That was the key for me

1:09:25.360 --> 1:09:28.599
<v Speaker 2>with Annie finding her anchor and the source of her power,

1:09:28.760 --> 1:09:31.799
<v Speaker 2>which is her faith and love. Whodo is a practice

1:09:31.840 --> 1:09:34.240
<v Speaker 2>that I didn't know anything about. So we had a

1:09:34.280 --> 1:09:37.880
<v Speaker 2>Hoodoo consultant and I did a ton of research. Just

1:09:37.920 --> 1:09:40.280
<v Speaker 2>being in New Orleans, I met so many people who

1:09:40.320 --> 1:09:43.760
<v Speaker 2>are either initiated or have family members who are. I

1:09:43.800 --> 1:09:46.840
<v Speaker 2>would go to House of Hodoo. I looked into the

1:09:46.960 --> 1:09:51.000
<v Speaker 2>Voodoo Museum in Voodoo Authentica, I met with witch doctors,

1:09:51.080 --> 1:09:54.680
<v Speaker 2>and I read books about the arisius and their powers.

1:09:55.320 --> 1:09:59.680
<v Speaker 2>Learning that history as a Yoruba woman myself, when I

1:09:59.760 --> 1:10:02.519
<v Speaker 2>knew nothing about it at all, really opened up something

1:10:02.520 --> 1:10:04.519
<v Speaker 2>for me. It's a part of the message of the film.

1:10:04.920 --> 1:10:07.840
<v Speaker 2>Knowing who you're from, being in touch with your ancestry,

1:10:07.920 --> 1:10:12.120
<v Speaker 2>and learning how their purpose is now manifested in you.

1:10:13.400 --> 1:10:17.840
<v Speaker 3>I really appreciate that, like in a movie that is

1:10:17.920 --> 1:10:23.920
<v Speaker 3>going out of its way to discuss religion in spirituality,

1:10:24.040 --> 1:10:30.800
<v Speaker 3>that who do spirituality is separated from the religions that

1:10:30.880 --> 1:10:36.040
<v Speaker 3>are forced upon colonized and oppressed people, because again, I

1:10:36.080 --> 1:10:40.639
<v Speaker 3>think that again in a lesser movie, any spirituality would

1:10:40.680 --> 1:10:43.799
<v Speaker 3>be painted as a very broad brush as all religion

1:10:43.840 --> 1:10:49.760
<v Speaker 3>and spirituality is inherently oppressive when the reality is your

1:10:49.840 --> 1:10:54.360
<v Speaker 3>personal relationship to it, and also where does it come

1:10:54.400 --> 1:10:59.600
<v Speaker 3>from in your lineage? And sinners is careful to delineate

1:11:00.240 --> 1:11:04.479
<v Speaker 3>who do is a spirituality and a practice that was

1:11:05.360 --> 1:11:09.559
<v Speaker 3>created by enslaved peoples that came from Africa and built

1:11:09.640 --> 1:11:14.760
<v Speaker 3>upon And whereas when we meet the Irish vampires, they're like,

1:11:14.920 --> 1:11:17.880
<v Speaker 3>so there's this thing called Catholicism. We hate it, but

1:11:18.040 --> 1:11:23.519
<v Speaker 3>here it is, yeah, and like the relationship is far

1:11:23.640 --> 1:11:27.559
<v Speaker 3>less personal and all that to say, I mean, there

1:11:27.640 --> 1:11:31.840
<v Speaker 3>is so much going on with Andy's character and I

1:11:31.960 --> 1:11:34.680
<v Speaker 3>just feel like it wasn't fully.

1:11:35.240 --> 1:11:38.400
<v Speaker 4>She deserves her own film. There should be a sequel.

1:11:40.960 --> 1:11:44.680
<v Speaker 3>Is there any reason Sammy and Annie couldn't have made it?

1:11:44.680 --> 1:11:49.160
<v Speaker 3>Because I understand that Sammy is not just himself as

1:11:49.200 --> 1:11:53.320
<v Speaker 3>a character, but he represents black art and black culture

1:11:53.479 --> 1:11:57.120
<v Speaker 3>and personhood and moving forward and all of these really

1:11:57.160 --> 1:12:00.760
<v Speaker 3>important things that the movie is talking about. But like,

1:12:01.479 --> 1:12:04.640
<v Speaker 3>why not Annie? She should have made it?

1:12:04.960 --> 1:12:08.280
<v Speaker 2>I know, yeah, yeah, it takes us a while to

1:12:08.360 --> 1:12:12.599
<v Speaker 2>meet her as well, and you know, I know that

1:12:12.760 --> 1:12:14.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, the story has a lot to accomplish, and

1:12:14.960 --> 1:12:19.960
<v Speaker 2>it is focused on the Michael B. Jordan's but I

1:12:20.000 --> 1:12:24.360
<v Speaker 2>do feel like there was room to include her more

1:12:24.400 --> 1:12:26.200
<v Speaker 2>in the story. I mean, I do appreciate that she

1:12:26.520 --> 1:12:30.240
<v Speaker 2>is given. She is the character with all of the

1:12:30.439 --> 1:12:35.680
<v Speaker 2>relevant knowledge on how to survive a vampire attack. And

1:12:35.720 --> 1:12:38.559
<v Speaker 2>I also thought it was interesting that at first she

1:12:39.439 --> 1:12:44.719
<v Speaker 2>thinks they are haints. She uses the word haint several

1:12:44.760 --> 1:12:47.360
<v Speaker 2>times and I had to look that up because I

1:12:47.400 --> 1:12:50.439
<v Speaker 2>wasn't familiar with what that was, but it's a term

1:12:50.680 --> 1:12:55.800
<v Speaker 2>in the Gula Geechee language, and then I had to

1:12:55.840 --> 1:12:58.599
<v Speaker 2>look up what that is. This movie gave me an

1:12:58.640 --> 1:13:01.479
<v Speaker 2>excuse to learn about a new culture.

1:13:01.720 --> 1:13:01.920
<v Speaker 4>Yep.

1:13:02.000 --> 1:13:04.400
<v Speaker 2>And I appreciate that all because she says hate and

1:13:04.439 --> 1:13:05.679
<v Speaker 2>I was like, what is that?

1:13:05.840 --> 1:13:09.680
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely? I mean, and it's again like we talk a

1:13:09.680 --> 1:13:12.519
<v Speaker 3>lot about like it is not the job of anyone

1:13:12.640 --> 1:13:17.040
<v Speaker 3>movie to do this, that or the other, but it

1:13:17.120 --> 1:13:21.800
<v Speaker 3>is a benefit of a movie like Senators that it

1:13:21.840 --> 1:13:24.360
<v Speaker 3>stands to introduce. Uh.

1:13:24.479 --> 1:13:26.560
<v Speaker 4>It covers a lot of ground.

1:13:27.080 --> 1:13:30.439
<v Speaker 3>Like kind of an absurd amount of ground, so much.

1:13:31.280 --> 1:13:36.759
<v Speaker 3>I also thought, I mean, another woman who we sort

1:13:36.760 --> 1:13:40.040
<v Speaker 3>of get to know throughout this is Grace, who, while

1:13:40.080 --> 1:13:44.479
<v Speaker 3>I think she is a very proactive distinct character is

1:13:44.600 --> 1:13:48.439
<v Speaker 3>primarily defined through her relationship as a wife and a mother,

1:13:49.040 --> 1:13:55.400
<v Speaker 3>and correct right where it's like legionally gives an unreal performance.

1:13:55.600 --> 1:13:59.200
<v Speaker 3>And I also think, and this is like possibly my

1:13:59.360 --> 1:14:04.360
<v Speaker 3>own like short sightedness, But I can't think of many

1:14:04.439 --> 1:14:10.960
<v Speaker 3>examples in like mainstream like blockbustering media where I feel like,

1:14:11.040 --> 1:14:15.439
<v Speaker 3>very often Asian American characters don't have regional accents for

1:14:15.479 --> 1:14:18.760
<v Speaker 3>some reason for sure, And this was like one of

1:14:18.800 --> 1:14:21.519
<v Speaker 3>the few examples I could think of in a like

1:14:21.880 --> 1:14:26.360
<v Speaker 3>big blockbuster movie where we have Asian American characters who

1:14:26.640 --> 1:14:33.000
<v Speaker 3>have very clearly regionally distinct accents and a clear relationship

1:14:33.400 --> 1:14:36.040
<v Speaker 3>to their culture of origin. And like, I don't know,

1:14:36.240 --> 1:14:37.280
<v Speaker 3>I thought it was wonderful.

1:14:37.479 --> 1:14:39.760
<v Speaker 4>That's good attention to detail, thank you.

1:14:41.200 --> 1:14:46.599
<v Speaker 3>But like Grace, it's a great performance. I like her character,

1:14:46.920 --> 1:14:50.320
<v Speaker 3>but again, it did feel like it was hanging a

1:14:50.400 --> 1:14:54.160
<v Speaker 3>little aggressively on the wife, like and my wife or

1:14:54.160 --> 1:14:58.760
<v Speaker 3>and my mother ye versus anything else, because it does

1:14:58.800 --> 1:15:02.559
<v Speaker 3>feel like her ultimate question is do I go with

1:15:02.600 --> 1:15:06.440
<v Speaker 3>my husband? And the reason she turns against her husband

1:15:07.040 --> 1:15:10.120
<v Speaker 3>is because of her daughter, and we don't really get

1:15:10.160 --> 1:15:13.760
<v Speaker 3>to know too much about her outside of that. And

1:15:14.040 --> 1:15:17.200
<v Speaker 3>again it just feels like a missed opportunity to flesh

1:15:17.240 --> 1:15:23.519
<v Speaker 3>out that character more as a person that exists as

1:15:23.520 --> 1:15:27.440
<v Speaker 3>a singular being outside of those roles exactly.

1:15:27.640 --> 1:15:32.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and a similar vibe with Herlene as the you know,

1:15:32.320 --> 1:15:38.439
<v Speaker 4>necessary sexual liberator of Sammy or whatever. It just seemed

1:15:38.560 --> 1:15:43.160
<v Speaker 4>very odd and I don't feel like anything else was

1:15:43.320 --> 1:15:48.240
<v Speaker 4>explored with her as a person or character at all.

1:15:48.760 --> 1:15:49.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1:15:49.240 --> 1:15:49.479
<v Speaker 2>Right.

1:15:49.520 --> 1:15:51.679
<v Speaker 4>And on the one hand, because I was thinking about

1:15:51.720 --> 1:15:55.240
<v Speaker 4>this right before we started, I'm like, I'm sure some

1:15:55.320 --> 1:15:59.920
<v Speaker 4>people might justify it as well. You know, it's nineteen three,

1:16:01.200 --> 1:16:05.920
<v Speaker 4>so maybe it's a statement on women's place in society

1:16:06.120 --> 1:16:10.400
<v Speaker 4>at that time. But I have a very hard time

1:16:11.360 --> 1:16:16.719
<v Speaker 4>going with that in the case of Perlein, specifically as

1:16:17.120 --> 1:16:22.519
<v Speaker 4>a blues singer. So the majority of blues singers, especially

1:16:22.560 --> 1:16:27.120
<v Speaker 4>women blues singers of the era, would have been extremely

1:16:27.680 --> 1:16:33.720
<v Speaker 4>independent women and by no means defined by their relationship

1:16:33.960 --> 1:16:35.040
<v Speaker 4>to any man.

1:16:35.640 --> 1:16:36.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1:16:36.040 --> 1:16:39.000
<v Speaker 2>And we do learn that she is married, because she

1:16:39.120 --> 1:16:43.439
<v Speaker 2>tells Sammy that when he's like kind of approaching her.

1:16:43.880 --> 1:16:46.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but it might as well have not have happened.

1:16:46.040 --> 1:16:48.040
<v Speaker 3>I feel like, as far as I like, I feel

1:16:48.040 --> 1:16:50.920
<v Speaker 3>like that's to establish her as the Jezebel, but it

1:16:50.960 --> 1:16:53.160
<v Speaker 3>doesn't pay off in any meaningfully way.

1:16:53.360 --> 1:16:56.400
<v Speaker 2>That's what I mean. And also like, you know, why

1:16:56.520 --> 1:16:59.280
<v Speaker 2>why can't she be one of these like musicians who

1:16:59.360 --> 1:17:05.439
<v Speaker 2>has this of mystical abilities to connect past and present

1:17:05.560 --> 1:17:08.920
<v Speaker 2>and things like that. But I guess only Sammy gets.

1:17:09.479 --> 1:17:10.800
<v Speaker 4>She's very propified.

1:17:12.200 --> 1:17:16.120
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, and like and and again it sucks because

1:17:16.120 --> 1:17:19.840
<v Speaker 3>it's like the performance that Jamie Lawson gives, especially like

1:17:19.880 --> 1:17:23.120
<v Speaker 3>in the musical portion, is unreal. I feels like so

1:17:23.280 --> 1:17:26.599
<v Speaker 3>many of the things that you would want is there,

1:17:26.960 --> 1:17:30.160
<v Speaker 3>Like where okay, she's unhappy in her marriage, or like

1:17:30.280 --> 1:17:37.600
<v Speaker 3>she's whatever, Like she receives pleasure as we see she

1:17:37.680 --> 1:17:42.519
<v Speaker 3>goes a woga, she comes so hard, she's like, I

1:17:42.560 --> 1:17:46.080
<v Speaker 3>have to give a full blown musical performance, and so

1:17:46.080 --> 1:17:48.080
<v Speaker 3>so many of us have felt that way and been

1:17:48.240 --> 1:17:52.320
<v Speaker 3>unable to deliver what she does. And so it's very

1:17:52.320 --> 1:17:55.400
<v Speaker 3>cathartic watching a woman come and be like and I

1:17:55.439 --> 1:17:58.679
<v Speaker 3>can show you how it feels. It's great, like it's

1:17:58.880 --> 1:18:02.639
<v Speaker 3>it's so great, But we don't have enough for her

1:18:02.720 --> 1:18:05.800
<v Speaker 3>to be a full character, because we can really only

1:18:05.880 --> 1:18:08.599
<v Speaker 3>name two or three things about her, and I feel

1:18:08.600 --> 1:18:10.240
<v Speaker 3>like so much of that comes down to like, it's

1:18:10.240 --> 1:18:13.160
<v Speaker 3>a great performance, but what do we know about her?

1:18:13.920 --> 1:18:16.920
<v Speaker 2>What it comes down to is that this movie is

1:18:18.080 --> 1:18:23.160
<v Speaker 2>more concerned with the Smokestack Twins and the Sami characters,

1:18:23.200 --> 1:18:26.280
<v Speaker 2>and so they're definitely they get most of the screen

1:18:26.360 --> 1:18:31.439
<v Speaker 2>time and the important narrative arcs and all of that.

1:18:31.680 --> 1:18:35.000
<v Speaker 2>And then that's just part of a larger problem of

1:18:35.240 --> 1:18:38.719
<v Speaker 2>there just not being enough movies that center black women,

1:18:39.040 --> 1:18:44.080
<v Speaker 2>and especially ones that explore the themes that this movie

1:18:44.160 --> 1:18:47.679
<v Speaker 2>explores as far as like black liberation and what does

1:18:47.680 --> 1:18:49.840
<v Speaker 2>that look like? And black joy and what does that

1:18:49.880 --> 1:18:53.000
<v Speaker 2>look like? And things like that, and you know, it's

1:18:53.040 --> 1:18:55.759
<v Speaker 2>again we always say it's not any one movie's job

1:18:55.920 --> 1:19:03.240
<v Speaker 2>to represent everything and explore everything worthing, but in this

1:19:03.320 --> 1:19:07.760
<v Speaker 2>movie it does feel noticeable. And also this kind of

1:19:07.840 --> 1:19:11.360
<v Speaker 2>is a movie about fathers and sons because I mean

1:19:11.479 --> 1:19:14.559
<v Speaker 2>smoke and talking about their father.

1:19:15.439 --> 1:19:19.080
<v Speaker 4>And do we even mention Sammy's mom? No?

1:19:19.320 --> 1:19:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Do we meet her?

1:19:20.400 --> 1:19:22.719
<v Speaker 3>No, we don't even know. We don't know if she's living,

1:19:23.120 --> 1:19:24.920
<v Speaker 3>dead existence.

1:19:25.120 --> 1:19:27.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, there's no reference to her at all.

1:19:27.360 --> 1:19:29.639
<v Speaker 3>Maybe he felt from the sky, we don't know.

1:19:30.320 --> 1:19:32.759
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, he just came forth from his father's preaching.

1:19:32.840 --> 1:19:37.320
<v Speaker 2>I guess yeah, immaculate conception question Mark.

1:19:37.439 --> 1:19:40.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I feel like there's an extremely controversial statement, but

1:19:40.520 --> 1:19:43.760
<v Speaker 4>I would be willing to do with one less Michael B.

1:19:43.960 --> 1:19:46.919
<v Speaker 4>Jordan in favor of do you have one fully developed

1:19:46.920 --> 1:19:47.799
<v Speaker 4>female character?

1:19:48.720 --> 1:19:51.640
<v Speaker 3>I agree? I agree, and I also think, like I

1:19:52.320 --> 1:19:57.479
<v Speaker 3>love Twin inspired tension, but we are not exploring like

1:19:57.600 --> 1:20:00.560
<v Speaker 3>what if he had a fra Turtle twin who was

1:20:00.600 --> 1:20:05.760
<v Speaker 3>a woman, Like how would that mix things up? I? Yeah,

1:20:06.040 --> 1:20:08.280
<v Speaker 3>And this is like sort of goes back to what

1:20:08.439 --> 1:20:13.519
<v Speaker 3>my irritation with Twin stunt casting is is that it

1:20:13.640 --> 1:20:19.160
<v Speaker 3>is like, well, instead of developing other actors or perhaps women,

1:20:19.439 --> 1:20:23.360
<v Speaker 3>because outside of Lindsay Lohan, most of the doubled actors

1:20:23.520 --> 1:20:26.760
<v Speaker 3>are men, they're sort of like, what if we had

1:20:26.800 --> 1:20:29.800
<v Speaker 3>two movie stars instead of one? And this movie is

1:20:29.840 --> 1:20:30.519
<v Speaker 3>not above that?

1:20:31.240 --> 1:20:35.799
<v Speaker 2>Jamian, you're forgetting about the Vanessa Hudgens Princess Switch movies.

1:20:37.200 --> 1:20:38.160
<v Speaker 4>Forget this right.

1:20:39.720 --> 1:20:45.280
<v Speaker 3>You're right, and I have seen them all. That's embarrassing. Yes, Okay,

1:20:45.320 --> 1:20:48.080
<v Speaker 3>I retract my statement, but I do feel like sometimes

1:20:48.120 --> 1:20:51.040
<v Speaker 3>there is a tendency where it's like it's fun, and

1:20:51.400 --> 1:20:54.360
<v Speaker 3>I often like it, but you know, sometimes it's like, well,

1:20:54.360 --> 1:20:57.320
<v Speaker 3>what if we could have two movie stars instead of one,

1:20:57.840 --> 1:21:01.760
<v Speaker 3>and movie stars tend to be men in a movie

1:21:01.840 --> 1:21:06.479
<v Speaker 3>that has a clear invested interest in intersectionality, I do

1:21:06.640 --> 1:21:11.080
<v Speaker 3>feel like women receive the short shrift, which again is

1:21:11.160 --> 1:21:14.440
<v Speaker 3>like this movie is doing so much, it cannot do everything.

1:21:14.560 --> 1:21:16.840
<v Speaker 3>It's not fair to lay at the feet of Mike

1:21:17.320 --> 1:21:20.720
<v Speaker 3>of not Michael B. Jordan, He's already doing so much

1:21:21.360 --> 1:21:26.760
<v Speaker 3>of Ryan Kugler to do everything. But of every intersection

1:21:26.880 --> 1:21:30.080
<v Speaker 3>presented in this movie, it does feel like women are

1:21:30.240 --> 1:21:36.840
<v Speaker 3>generally and Black women specifically, don't have the presence and

1:21:36.880 --> 1:21:40.559
<v Speaker 3>the complete narrative arcs that they should have. We get

1:21:40.560 --> 1:21:43.840
<v Speaker 3>the beginning of a lot of interesting arcs and then

1:21:44.160 --> 1:21:45.920
<v Speaker 3>they die.

1:21:46.680 --> 1:21:48.200
<v Speaker 4>Yes, so.

1:21:49.680 --> 1:21:51.960
<v Speaker 3>I don't love that. I did want to talk about

1:21:52.000 --> 1:21:54.880
<v Speaker 3>I know that it's hot and we're going over time,

1:21:54.960 --> 1:21:57.400
<v Speaker 3>but I did want to just touch on some of

1:21:57.439 --> 1:22:01.880
<v Speaker 3>the conversation around the release of this movie. Yes, I

1:22:01.920 --> 1:22:05.000
<v Speaker 3>have stuff on this as well, because there is a

1:22:05.040 --> 1:22:09.240
<v Speaker 3>bunch to talk about. I think that a lot of

1:22:09.400 --> 1:22:15.760
<v Speaker 3>what I remember seeing and what demonstrates a clear persistent

1:22:15.880 --> 1:22:19.639
<v Speaker 3>racism in the way that not just movies are promoted

1:22:19.680 --> 1:22:25.080
<v Speaker 3>but covered is how I mean Sinners is again, it's

1:22:25.160 --> 1:22:29.400
<v Speaker 3>doing so much because not only is it a major

1:22:29.640 --> 1:22:34.639
<v Speaker 3>blockbuster tent pole written and directed by a black writer director,

1:22:35.040 --> 1:22:38.000
<v Speaker 3>it is also an a ritual story which we are

1:22:38.080 --> 1:22:44.800
<v Speaker 3>seeing so little of. And by all metrics, it did incredibly.

1:22:45.360 --> 1:22:50.080
<v Speaker 3>This was a writer director who is beloved, who historically

1:22:50.320 --> 1:22:55.759
<v Speaker 3>has always had majority black casts, and the movie did well.

1:22:55.840 --> 1:22:58.000
<v Speaker 3>People went out to see it. It broke a number

1:22:58.000 --> 1:23:01.880
<v Speaker 3>of records I mean sort of run down the list

1:23:02.000 --> 1:23:05.200
<v Speaker 3>of but like specifically in recent history for original stories,

1:23:05.240 --> 1:23:09.680
<v Speaker 3>because we've been really plagued by IP stories for a

1:23:09.800 --> 1:23:13.880
<v Speaker 3>long long time and this felt like to me at

1:23:13.960 --> 1:23:17.640
<v Speaker 3>least that like Ryan Coogler had done his time in

1:23:17.800 --> 1:23:21.679
<v Speaker 3>the like IP world, and here is this original story

1:23:21.680 --> 1:23:24.400
<v Speaker 3>that he's writing and directing, and it was doing incredibly.

1:23:24.520 --> 1:23:27.200
<v Speaker 3>It got a ton of word of mouth marketing. It

1:23:27.280 --> 1:23:31.360
<v Speaker 3>made three hundred and sixty six million dollars at the

1:23:31.400 --> 1:23:35.280
<v Speaker 3>global box office. It was incredible. But what we saw

1:23:35.400 --> 1:23:39.040
<v Speaker 3>in terms of how it was covered was a lot

1:23:39.040 --> 1:23:44.360
<v Speaker 3>of like dubiousness of like will Sinners be profitable at

1:23:44.400 --> 1:23:47.080
<v Speaker 3>the box office in ways that you just like would

1:23:47.120 --> 1:23:51.839
<v Speaker 3>not see four blockbuster ten polls written directed and starring

1:23:52.360 --> 1:23:55.240
<v Speaker 3>white actors, directors, writers.

1:23:55.439 --> 1:23:58.439
<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's tradition with blacks andem at this point.

1:23:59.160 --> 1:24:01.880
<v Speaker 3>True, true, I was just like asking the most bad

1:24:01.920 --> 1:24:05.599
<v Speaker 3>faith questions possible to undercut someone's success.

1:24:05.960 --> 1:24:09.680
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, phenomenal black directors and writers are always treated like

1:24:09.800 --> 1:24:12.920
<v Speaker 4>toddlers trying to throw a ball for the first time.

1:24:13.920 --> 1:24:18.840
<v Speaker 2>The New York Times and Fuck Them was very guilty

1:24:19.000 --> 1:24:23.120
<v Speaker 2>of this variety a few others. But it's also not

1:24:23.160 --> 1:24:26.400
<v Speaker 2>surprising that this movie was so popular because ample money

1:24:26.600 --> 1:24:30.280
<v Speaker 2>was spent on marketing to promote this movie, which often

1:24:30.320 --> 1:24:34.360
<v Speaker 2>does not happen with movies by and about marginalized people,

1:24:34.479 --> 1:24:37.800
<v Speaker 2>because Hollywood will assume that no one wants to see

1:24:37.800 --> 1:24:41.320
<v Speaker 2>that movie, so they don't promote it enough. And because

1:24:41.360 --> 1:24:44.479
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't well promoted, no one knows about it, and

1:24:44.520 --> 1:24:47.960
<v Speaker 2>that's why no one saw the movie. So it becomes

1:24:48.000 --> 1:24:52.439
<v Speaker 2>this like self fulfilling prophecy that has these sinister reasons

1:24:52.479 --> 1:24:55.600
<v Speaker 2>behind it. But this movie was well promoted and a

1:24:55.600 --> 1:24:56.400
<v Speaker 2>lot of people saw it.

1:24:56.479 --> 1:24:59.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, even when it was well promoted, they're like, well,

1:24:59.320 --> 1:25:02.840
<v Speaker 3>should we have on that, and you're like, yeah, everyone

1:25:02.960 --> 1:25:03.439
<v Speaker 3>loved it.

1:25:04.560 --> 1:25:05.720
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1:25:05.760 --> 1:25:09.919
<v Speaker 2>And then also worth noting is the deal Ryan Kugler

1:25:10.320 --> 1:25:13.599
<v Speaker 2>was able to get for this movie, which was first

1:25:13.600 --> 1:25:20.000
<v Speaker 2>dollar gross, which means that he receives a percentage of

1:25:20.760 --> 1:25:25.160
<v Speaker 2>gross box office revenue starting from like day one of

1:25:25.200 --> 1:25:27.880
<v Speaker 2>the movie's release. So typically it would be something like

1:25:28.240 --> 1:25:31.760
<v Speaker 2>the studio waits until the film starts to turn a

1:25:31.800 --> 1:25:34.880
<v Speaker 2>profit and like make its budget back. But in this case,

1:25:35.400 --> 1:25:39.160
<v Speaker 2>he was making money off the movie from like minute one,

1:25:39.400 --> 1:25:40.120
<v Speaker 2>and that's.

1:25:39.960 --> 1:25:45.320
<v Speaker 3>Just like powerful director shit too, where it's like and again,

1:25:45.360 --> 1:25:49.000
<v Speaker 3>it's like not something that we it's frustrating because it's

1:25:49.000 --> 1:25:53.519
<v Speaker 3>not something that we frequently see with black directors that

1:25:54.040 --> 1:25:57.679
<v Speaker 3>Ryan Cougler did have and was turned against him because

1:25:57.720 --> 1:26:01.240
<v Speaker 3>there's a number of examples of like, well, part of

1:26:01.280 --> 1:26:04.439
<v Speaker 3>the reasons that Sinners might not turn a profit at

1:26:04.439 --> 1:26:07.720
<v Speaker 3>the box office is because the writer director has this

1:26:07.880 --> 1:26:10.200
<v Speaker 3>kind of deal, and so it's just like at every

1:26:10.240 --> 1:26:15.519
<v Speaker 3>single step he's being undercut, even when he is getting

1:26:15.520 --> 1:26:19.439
<v Speaker 3>the kind of deal that he objectively deserves. It's being

1:26:19.840 --> 1:26:24.320
<v Speaker 3>like painted as a craven selfishness when no one would

1:26:24.360 --> 1:26:29.919
<v Speaker 3>say that shit to Scoresese or whoever else any white director.

1:26:30.720 --> 1:26:34.400
<v Speaker 3>But in spite of all of that, the movie did

1:26:34.760 --> 1:26:37.920
<v Speaker 3>terrifically at the box office. It broke all of these

1:26:37.960 --> 1:26:43.120
<v Speaker 3>records for original stories during a time that desperately needs

1:26:43.600 --> 1:26:47.600
<v Speaker 3>original stories doing well at the box office, there was

1:26:48.160 --> 1:26:52.840
<v Speaker 3>a fair amount of fan backlash to the way these

1:26:52.840 --> 1:26:55.200
<v Speaker 3>stories were being covered. There were also a number of

1:26:55.240 --> 1:27:00.600
<v Speaker 3>directors who spoke out in support of Ryan and like,

1:27:00.640 --> 1:27:02.839
<v Speaker 3>why the fuck are we talking about this this way,

1:27:03.160 --> 1:27:08.680
<v Speaker 3>including weirdly, Ben Stiller. I'm like, so, Ben, there's us

1:27:08.680 --> 1:27:11.759
<v Speaker 3>saying Ben Stiller in the Center's episode for some reason.

1:27:13.360 --> 1:27:16.920
<v Speaker 3>And I guess I'm good for that. But I am

1:27:16.920 --> 1:27:19.760
<v Speaker 3>at very least glad that that conversation was being like

1:27:19.920 --> 1:27:23.799
<v Speaker 3>noticed and had, because it was really a great jous Yes.

1:27:23.800 --> 1:27:28.080
<v Speaker 2>For sure, to go back really quick to the deal

1:27:28.160 --> 1:27:32.360
<v Speaker 2>that Ryan Coogler made with the studio. In addition to

1:27:32.400 --> 1:27:35.680
<v Speaker 2>the first dollar gross, he also got final cut privileges,

1:27:36.479 --> 1:27:41.400
<v Speaker 2>which is rare, especially for a black director, and then

1:27:41.720 --> 1:27:45.080
<v Speaker 2>he also got ownership of the copyright of the film

1:27:45.439 --> 1:27:48.599
<v Speaker 2>twenty five years after its released, so basically he will

1:27:48.640 --> 1:27:52.519
<v Speaker 2>own the rights to this movie again impressed after twenty

1:27:52.560 --> 1:27:55.680
<v Speaker 2>five years, which is also quite rare, And I just

1:27:55.800 --> 1:28:00.760
<v Speaker 2>I hope this sets a precedent for other marginalized filmmakers

1:28:01.479 --> 1:28:04.280
<v Speaker 2>because the directors who do tend to get this deal

1:28:05.240 --> 1:28:07.840
<v Speaker 2>are cis white men, and.

1:28:07.840 --> 1:28:11.600
<v Speaker 3>Then just chatting at a few other people in the

1:28:11.640 --> 1:28:15.520
<v Speaker 3>production where while I do like this movie is ultimately

1:28:16.080 --> 1:28:19.640
<v Speaker 3>centered on and prioritizing men, we do have. We have

1:28:20.560 --> 1:28:25.719
<v Speaker 3>the producers. We have Zinzy Kugler, Ryan Kugler's production partner

1:28:26.240 --> 1:28:30.160
<v Speaker 3>and spouse they famously saw Bring It On Together in Oakland.

1:28:31.080 --> 1:28:37.000
<v Speaker 3>We also have a cinematographer, Autumn Gerald Archipa, who is

1:28:37.200 --> 1:28:42.200
<v Speaker 3>also from California, has been working for some time, mostly

1:28:42.280 --> 1:28:46.640
<v Speaker 3>with Ryan Coogler and Gia Coppola. I don't know, but

1:28:47.439 --> 1:28:51.479
<v Speaker 3>she is historically the first black woman to ever direct

1:28:51.600 --> 1:28:55.640
<v Speaker 3>a movie for Imax or to be a director of

1:28:55.640 --> 1:29:00.479
<v Speaker 3>photography for Imax, which is both amazing and while that

1:29:00.560 --> 1:29:04.760
<v Speaker 3>it took that long. And then also we have I

1:29:04.800 --> 1:29:08.240
<v Speaker 3>just wanted to again shout out the costumer who is

1:29:08.360 --> 1:29:12.200
<v Speaker 3>just like a famous figure already, but Ruth E. Carter,

1:29:12.320 --> 1:29:16.759
<v Speaker 3>who has won two Oscars with Ryan Cougler. I believe

1:29:16.760 --> 1:29:20.000
<v Speaker 3>she's the first black woman to win for Best Costume Design.

1:29:20.080 --> 1:29:24.920
<v Speaker 3>But she's also a frequent collaborator with Spike Lee and

1:29:25.280 --> 1:29:29.479
<v Speaker 3>Steven Spielberg. Movies we've covered that include her work Our

1:29:29.520 --> 1:29:35.080
<v Speaker 3>Love in Basketball. She also has done do the right thing.

1:29:35.240 --> 1:29:38.880
<v Speaker 3>What's love got to do with it? Selma Dolomite is

1:29:38.880 --> 1:29:43.840
<v Speaker 3>my name coming to America like she's a legend. So well,

1:29:43.840 --> 1:29:48.040
<v Speaker 3>I do think that this is ultimately a joint that

1:29:48.200 --> 1:29:52.240
<v Speaker 3>focuses on men. There is at least a historical priority

1:29:52.360 --> 1:29:56.400
<v Speaker 3>of Ryan Cougler behind the scenes to include women at

1:29:56.400 --> 1:29:57.320
<v Speaker 3>the highest levels.

1:29:57.880 --> 1:29:58.280
<v Speaker 2>For sure.

1:29:58.400 --> 1:30:05.240
<v Speaker 4>Definitely chose very powerful women. And again, even in our

1:30:05.439 --> 1:30:11.080
<v Speaker 4>critique of their overarching character development, the fact that they've

1:30:11.479 --> 1:30:15.679
<v Speaker 4>still had so much power in their presence and time

1:30:15.880 --> 1:30:18.880
<v Speaker 4>on screen regardless says a lot.

1:30:19.280 --> 1:30:19.920
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely.

1:30:20.520 --> 1:30:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's pretty much all I had. Does anyone want

1:30:23.880 --> 1:30:26.479
<v Speaker 2>to have anything else they'd like to talk about?

1:30:27.160 --> 1:30:28.519
<v Speaker 3>That's that's all I add.

1:30:28.840 --> 1:30:30.360
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think we covered quite a bit.

1:30:30.560 --> 1:30:33.280
<v Speaker 3>It's true, we're all drenched in sweat, and I feel

1:30:33.320 --> 1:30:37.280
<v Speaker 3>like we've fully had the discourse. Yeah, does this movie

1:30:37.520 --> 1:30:40.760
<v Speaker 3>pass the backdel test? I think maybe on a technicality

1:30:40.800 --> 1:30:44.880
<v Speaker 3>once or twice, But we really don't have a lot

1:30:44.920 --> 1:30:51.439
<v Speaker 3>of women in conversation about not either various Michael B.

1:30:51.600 --> 1:30:57.840
<v Speaker 3>Jordan's or vampires that are men. I think in general, Yeah.

1:30:57.560 --> 1:30:59.679
<v Speaker 2>It's a lot of men talking to each other.

1:31:00.080 --> 1:31:02.760
<v Speaker 4>About man business, Yes, about.

1:31:02.560 --> 1:31:04.120
<v Speaker 3>About and stuff.

1:31:04.439 --> 1:31:07.839
<v Speaker 2>It is very little women interacting with each other.

1:31:07.760 --> 1:31:08.679
<v Speaker 3>Little women.

1:31:10.479 --> 1:31:13.800
<v Speaker 2>Yes, honestly, this is another movie where I forgot to

1:31:13.880 --> 1:31:17.040
<v Speaker 2>pay attention to Bechdel test passing.

1:31:17.360 --> 1:31:20.920
<v Speaker 3>I think that it technically does, but like, I don't know,

1:31:21.000 --> 1:31:24.639
<v Speaker 3>like I'm not going to be like Sinners. I can't

1:31:24.680 --> 1:31:28.320
<v Speaker 3>believe like this movie is doing so so much. But

1:31:29.080 --> 1:31:33.160
<v Speaker 3>women do kind of fall into the rare view in

1:31:33.240 --> 1:31:37.880
<v Speaker 3>terms of like their relationships with like their characters and

1:31:37.920 --> 1:31:41.120
<v Speaker 3>their relationships with each other does feel like a big

1:31:41.200 --> 1:31:43.320
<v Speaker 3>missed opportunity, which brings.

1:31:43.160 --> 1:31:47.360
<v Speaker 2>Us to the Bechdel cast nipple scale, in which we

1:31:47.479 --> 1:31:51.719
<v Speaker 2>rated the movie zero to five nipples, examining it through

1:31:51.840 --> 1:31:57.519
<v Speaker 2>an intersectional feminist lens. I'll go with four again. The

1:31:57.520 --> 1:32:00.120
<v Speaker 2>movie left some things to be desired when it comes

1:31:59.960 --> 1:32:04.280
<v Speaker 2>to the black women characters, but as we've discussed, this

1:32:04.560 --> 1:32:09.040
<v Speaker 2>film accomplishes a lot of great things. And I particularly

1:32:09.120 --> 1:32:14.120
<v Speaker 2>love vampire movies, horror movies, genre movies in general that

1:32:14.280 --> 1:32:19.280
<v Speaker 2>center marginalize people and communities, because so much Hollywood genre

1:32:19.320 --> 1:32:24.800
<v Speaker 2>film focuses on cis white men, so it's very refreshing

1:32:24.920 --> 1:32:30.400
<v Speaker 2>to not see that. So four nipples and I'm giving

1:32:30.439 --> 1:32:35.120
<v Speaker 2>them to any Prolene Grace, and then one to the

1:32:35.240 --> 1:32:39.240
<v Speaker 2>music which slaps so fucking hard in this movie.

1:32:39.520 --> 1:32:42.400
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to give this movie four nipples as well.

1:32:42.960 --> 1:32:46.320
<v Speaker 3>And I do think that ultimately the areas where I

1:32:46.360 --> 1:32:51.000
<v Speaker 3>really wish we had seen more characterization were with the

1:32:51.280 --> 1:32:56.080
<v Speaker 3>women characters writ large, specifically black women characters, and the

1:32:56.200 --> 1:33:00.120
<v Speaker 3>chalk talk characters also felt like a big missed opportunity.

1:33:00.920 --> 1:33:03.120
<v Speaker 3>One movie can't do anything, but it felt a little

1:33:03.160 --> 1:33:08.120
<v Speaker 3>frustrated to have these characters there and very knowingly included

1:33:08.680 --> 1:33:11.320
<v Speaker 3>in this very specific moment in time, and then not

1:33:11.880 --> 1:33:13.360
<v Speaker 3>built out upon.

1:33:13.840 --> 1:33:16.960
<v Speaker 4>More with so much potential, Yes to do.

1:33:17.040 --> 1:33:20.439
<v Speaker 3>So absolutely and again just like this movie is touching

1:33:20.439 --> 1:33:24.760
<v Speaker 3>on so much that it couldn't possibly resolve everything. Ultimately,

1:33:25.600 --> 1:33:31.559
<v Speaker 3>I wanted more Annie, yeah, and I wanted a chalk

1:33:31.640 --> 1:33:35.160
<v Speaker 3>talk character we got to know so but but nonetheless,

1:33:35.160 --> 1:33:37.400
<v Speaker 3>this movie is doing so much more than most dows

1:33:37.600 --> 1:33:42.160
<v Speaker 3>and is also wildly entertaining. Is a genre movie did

1:33:42.200 --> 1:33:47.720
<v Speaker 3>incredibly four nipples. I'm going to give two to Annie,

1:33:47.960 --> 1:33:50.760
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to give one to Grace, and I'm going

1:33:50.800 --> 1:33:56.759
<v Speaker 3>to give one to cinematographer Autumn Duould Archapa Dollia.

1:33:56.800 --> 1:33:57.280
<v Speaker 2>How about you?

1:33:57.720 --> 1:34:02.519
<v Speaker 4>So I was going to go Withles, but given the

1:34:02.840 --> 1:34:07.479
<v Speaker 4>additional details of the production staff. I think that does

1:34:08.080 --> 1:34:12.519
<v Speaker 4>earn the film an extra nipple, an extra half nipples.

1:34:12.520 --> 1:34:15.320
<v Speaker 4>So I'm going with four and a half nipples. And

1:34:15.640 --> 1:34:20.880
<v Speaker 4>I know, you know, the production staff isn't necessarily definitive

1:34:21.000 --> 1:34:24.840
<v Speaker 4>of the story itself or how it was told, but

1:34:25.200 --> 1:34:30.200
<v Speaker 4>I think overall there was a lot of attention to

1:34:30.520 --> 1:34:36.080
<v Speaker 4>intersections in a very complex and multi layered way. So

1:34:36.720 --> 1:34:41.120
<v Speaker 4>I give the whole cast and crew collectively they can

1:34:41.200 --> 1:34:43.519
<v Speaker 4>share four and a half nipples.

1:34:43.880 --> 1:34:47.519
<v Speaker 2>Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us again for

1:34:47.640 --> 1:34:48.480
<v Speaker 2>this discussion.

1:34:48.920 --> 1:34:50.800
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, thank you so much for having me.

1:34:51.040 --> 1:34:52.599
<v Speaker 3>We were so excited to have you back.

1:34:52.560 --> 1:34:57.800
<v Speaker 4>And not discussing this film with like some Super Mayo person.

1:34:58.040 --> 1:35:00.519
<v Speaker 3>Which which was our intent. We want to to bring

1:35:00.600 --> 1:35:04.799
<v Speaker 3>on a British white guy, and then we're like, wait.

1:35:04.600 --> 1:35:07.240
<v Speaker 4>A second, that might be inappropriate.

1:35:09.560 --> 1:35:12.200
<v Speaker 3>Dulia, Thank you so much for joining us again. Please

1:35:12.200 --> 1:35:15.960
<v Speaker 3>come back anytime, bring us any movie lay pleasure. And

1:35:16.080 --> 1:35:19.360
<v Speaker 3>where can we follow you and your work online?

1:35:19.680 --> 1:35:23.400
<v Speaker 4>Yes, so for comedy, which is what I want people

1:35:23.400 --> 1:35:26.720
<v Speaker 4>to know me for. Please follow me on Instagram at

1:35:26.840 --> 1:35:31.200
<v Speaker 4>mix Dahlia bell. I also shit post on Blue Sky

1:35:31.320 --> 1:35:36.719
<v Speaker 4>from time to time. I know, and if you want

1:35:36.760 --> 1:35:41.519
<v Speaker 4>to get way too much insight into my actual brain.

1:35:42.600 --> 1:35:45.160
<v Speaker 4>You can make the mistake of following me on threads.

1:35:45.720 --> 1:35:49.240
<v Speaker 4>All of that is at Mixed Dahlia Bell because I'm

1:35:49.360 --> 1:35:53.400
<v Speaker 4>narcissistic and my manager insists that I have a strong brand.

1:35:53.520 --> 1:36:00.280
<v Speaker 3>In that order same you can follow us also land

1:36:00.400 --> 1:36:04.639
<v Speaker 3>Instagram at Bechdel Cast. You can also contribute to the show.

1:36:04.800 --> 1:36:09.080
<v Speaker 3>We have our Patreon aka Matreon, where for five dollars

1:36:09.120 --> 1:36:13.080
<v Speaker 3>a month you can sign up support the show and

1:36:13.200 --> 1:36:17.000
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1:36:17.240 --> 1:36:21.720
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1:36:22.080 --> 1:36:26.800
<v Speaker 3>over I think nearly two hundred at this point bonus episodes.

1:36:26.920 --> 1:36:29.920
<v Speaker 3>So if you're like, if you've run out of episodes

1:36:30.000 --> 1:36:32.920
<v Speaker 3>on the main feed, there's a place, There is a community,

1:36:33.040 --> 1:36:36.720
<v Speaker 3>there is a whole expanded universe, so join us over

1:36:36.760 --> 1:36:37.160
<v Speaker 3>there too.

1:36:38.520 --> 1:36:45.519
<v Speaker 2>And with that, should we get out our guitars and.

1:36:45.479 --> 1:36:48.360
<v Speaker 3>Oh yes, oh wait, I thought to say, like deis

1:36:48.439 --> 1:36:52.519
<v Speaker 3>ex daddy guitar. With that, deis because we're told at

1:36:52.520 --> 1:36:56.559
<v Speaker 3>the beginning, Okay, okay, don't that didn't resonate I? Okay,

1:36:56.560 --> 1:36:59.320
<v Speaker 3>we're told at the beginning it is a famous musician's guitar.

1:36:59.800 --> 1:37:02.479
<v Speaker 3>And then at the end, Michael V. Jordan is like, actually,

1:37:02.520 --> 1:37:07.519
<v Speaker 3>that's my daddy's guitar. Oh, and it's they say daddy guitar, they.

1:37:07.360 --> 1:37:13.080
<v Speaker 2>Say, it's Charlie Patton's guitar. Yes, And then Smoke is like, no, Sammy,

1:37:13.160 --> 1:37:13.960
<v Speaker 2>that was a lie.

1:37:14.120 --> 1:37:17.240
<v Speaker 3>It's our follow Let's just end the episode. Let's end

1:37:17.280 --> 1:37:18.519
<v Speaker 3>the episode, Dad, I was.

1:37:18.840 --> 1:37:19.880
<v Speaker 2>I loved it, Jamie, I loved it.

1:37:20.320 --> 1:37:20.800
<v Speaker 3>It's fine.

1:37:20.920 --> 1:37:23.280
<v Speaker 4>I love you both. I love you both so much.

1:37:23.400 --> 1:37:26.360
<v Speaker 3>We love you, We love you so much. Okay, bye,

1:37:26.400 --> 1:37:33.600
<v Speaker 3>bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,

1:37:33.760 --> 1:37:36.680
<v Speaker 3>hosted and produced by Me, Jamie Loftus.

1:37:36.479 --> 1:37:39.960
<v Speaker 2>And Me Caitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by

1:37:40.080 --> 1:37:41.519
<v Speaker 2>Sophie Lichtermann.

1:37:41.280 --> 1:37:43.960
<v Speaker 3>And edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever heard of Them?

1:37:44.479 --> 1:37:47.920
<v Speaker 2>That's me and our logo and merch and all of

1:37:47.960 --> 1:37:51.679
<v Speaker 2>our artwork, in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus, Ever

1:37:51.720 --> 1:37:52.160
<v Speaker 2>heard of her?

1:37:52.360 --> 1:37:55.360
<v Speaker 3>Oh my God? And our theme song, by the way,

1:37:55.479 --> 1:37:56.439
<v Speaker 3>was composed by Mike.

1:37:56.400 --> 1:38:00.200
<v Speaker 2>Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Vosskrasinski.

1:38:00.280 --> 1:38:04.280
<v Speaker 3>And especial thanks to the one and only Aristotle Ascevedo.

1:38:04.800 --> 1:38:08.559
<v Speaker 2>For more information about the podcast, Please visit Linktree Slash

1:38:08.600 --> 1:38:09.400
<v Speaker 2>Spectelcast