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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zephyn Beast

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Speaker 1: start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin, my name is Jamie, and this

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Speaker 3: is our podcast where we take a look at your

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Speaker 3: favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel

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Speaker 3: Test as a jumping off point for discussion. Kitlin, it's

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Speaker 3: a thousand degrees and we have an incredible movie today,

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Speaker 3: So hit them with what the Bechdel Test is and

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Speaker 3: then we'll just jump in.

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Speaker 2: Happy to do it. It is a media metric created

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Speaker 2: by our best friend in the whole wide world, Alison Bechdel.

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Speaker 3: Is our way of saying we met her twice.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, And it's a media metric. It has many

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Speaker 2: different versions. The one that we use is do two

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Speaker 2: characters of a marginal life gender have names? Do they

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Speaker 2: speak to each other? And is there conversation about something

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Speaker 2: other than a man. And we also like it when

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Speaker 2: it's narratively meaningful and relevant to the story and.

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Speaker 3: Today, we are I think it's been a while since

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Speaker 3: we have covered a movie so close to its release date,

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Speaker 3: but we've gotten so many requests for this movie and

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Speaker 3: we're very, very excited to bring a returning guest to

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Speaker 3: discuss twenty twenty five. They wanted only Ryan Coogler's Sinners.

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Speaker 2: And our guest today is a comedian and cat mom

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Speaker 2: and you remember her from our episode on Tangerine. It's

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Speaker 2: mixed Aliabell.

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Speaker 4: Hello, Welco, yay, thank you so much for having me back.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back.

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Speaker 2: Oh, we're so happy to have you.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for bringing Sinners.

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Speaker 4: That's my specialty. I'm all about sin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we love sin we love sinning. Over here on

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Speaker 2: the Bechdelcast, what's your Since this is such a new release,

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Speaker 2: a recent film, there's you know, not much history to

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Speaker 2: be had with it, but what's your kind of relationship? Slash?

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Speaker 2: Maybe just like overall impression of the film.

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Speaker 4: Uh wow, that's so much to unpack.

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Speaker 3: So slash like vampire movies in general, I guess Yeah,

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Speaker 3: are you a vampire movie head?

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Speaker 4: I am gay so I have watched more than my

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Speaker 4: fair share of vampire movies For the listeners at home,

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Speaker 4: I am also black. So you know, Sinners hits on

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Speaker 4: a lot of subject matter and history that's pretty intrinsic

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Speaker 4: and personal to me.

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Speaker 2: H yeah, excited to dive deeper into that.

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Speaker 4: Oh and also, I've had a crush on Michael B.

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Speaker 4: Jordan for quite some time.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're not made of stone exactly. He's just

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Speaker 2: one of the handsomest men alive.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, I'm just I guess that everyone on

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Speaker 3: the Zoom Call has a rush on Michael B. Jordan,

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Speaker 3: and he's and and here I mean, yeah, what is

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Speaker 3: better than Michael B. Jordan? Well two of.

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Speaker 4: Them, yes, exactly.

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Speaker 2: So I didn't really watch any like behind the scenes things,

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Speaker 2: but there are some things that happened in this movie

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Speaker 2: where I'm like, how did you do that? I imagine there's

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Speaker 2: body doubles and stuff like that. But I'm like, but

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Speaker 2: sometimes they're fighting each other and we can see both

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Speaker 2: of their faces at the same time, and it's just

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Speaker 2: movie magic.

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Speaker 3: I just hope it's not AI. I don't know. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: but I also did not look into it.

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Speaker 4: I choose to believe they cloned Michael B. Jordan.

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Speaker 3: I think that would be the responsible thing to do. Honestly.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, yeah, yeah, like a like a the Prestige style.

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Speaker 4: Only without you know, obviously without killing the double exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm saying that he had a good two body

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Speaker 3: double named Percy Bell.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie?

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Speaker 3: I saw it right when it came out. We had

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Speaker 3: just covered a couple of vampire movies in a row,

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Speaker 3: and I was not sure I knew. I guess I

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Speaker 3: was bummed. I think this was true for a bunch

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Speaker 3: of people. I was bummed that someone tipped me off

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Speaker 3: that it was a vampire movie, because I know a

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Speaker 3: lot of people were like, c Sinners, don't look up anything,

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Speaker 3: because it was not really marketed that way, which is

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Speaker 3: kind of brilliant.

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Speaker 4: It was not.

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Speaker 3: So I was bummed that I knew it was a

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Speaker 3: vampire movie going in. I wish I could have seen

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Speaker 3: it for the first time not knowing that. But I mean,

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Speaker 3: this movie is doing so much in a way that

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Speaker 3: I feel like I didn't really fully appreciate until I

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Speaker 3: was watching it to prep for this, because it's also

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Speaker 3: you know, it's a period piece, and a really thoughtful

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Speaker 3: period piece of that. Like, I just I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I really loved it. I saw it twice in theaters

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Speaker 3: and just sort of let wash over me, and it

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Speaker 3: was very fun. It was fun learning how this movie

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Speaker 3: was made. Basically, Caitlyn, what About You?

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Speaker 2: I also saw this in theaters and I was able

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Speaker 2: to go in without knowing jealous that it was a

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Speaker 2: vampire movie.

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Speaker 3: I thought the day after it came out and someone

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Speaker 3: I don't even know who it was, but I placed

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Speaker 3: a curse on them.

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Speaker 2: I just like kind of stay off of social media

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Speaker 2: in general.

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Speaker 3: And I also healthy talk.

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Speaker 2: To people question work.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I just like I managed to avoid any spoilers, and

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Speaker 2: I was like dazzled by the movie and the twists

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Speaker 2: and everything. And vampire movies are like a subgenre that

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Speaker 2: I tend to be quite into. I love I love

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Speaker 2: a vampire. We've covered a lot of them on the show, and,

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Speaker 2: like you said, Jamie, a few recently.

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Speaker 3: The vampire movie that felt like most akin to this

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Speaker 3: one that I've seen is from Dusk Till Dawn.

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Speaker 2: Which Ryan Kogler cites as one of his inspirations for Sinners.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, similar in the sense that, like most of

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Speaker 2: the movie takes place at some sort of raucous nightclub

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Speaker 2: kind of place, and then Vampire's attack.

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Speaker 4: Did you think it's important to note that this is

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Speaker 4: a very different genre a vampire for sure, you know,

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Speaker 4: like we hit Nosferatu, the sort of creepy, mothball parasitic

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Speaker 4: type vampire. Vincent Pryce gave us the very dignified kind

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Speaker 4: of sexy vampire. Then we had the era of the

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Speaker 4: bisexual seducer vampire from an interview with the vampire. You

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Speaker 4: had the sparkle vampire of course. Brilliant innovation from Twilight.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, incredible.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and now we've made it all the way to

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Speaker 4: cultural vampurism.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, there's always innovation to be had in the

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Speaker 3: vampire space.

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Speaker 2: So true, let's take a quick break and then we'll

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Speaker 2: get into the recap and we're back.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess let's just jump into it because a

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Speaker 3: lot happens.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and my recap is quite long.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So there's a prologue with voiceover talking about people born

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Speaker 2: with incredible musical talent that can pierce the veil between

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Speaker 2: life and death and conjure spirits between the past and future.

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Speaker 2: It's a gift that can bring healing to communities, but

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Speaker 2: it also attracts evil ooh, foreshadowing. We're in the Mississippi

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Speaker 2: Delta in nineteen thirty two. We meet a young man

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Speaker 2: named Sammy played by Miles Ca. He stumbles into a

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Speaker 2: small black church. He's covered in blood. He's holding a

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Speaker 2: broken guitar. He embraces the pastor, who is his father,

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Speaker 2: who begs Sammy to drop the guitar and leave his

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Speaker 2: sinning ways in the past, and we're also seeing flashes

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Speaker 2: of something scary that has happened, but we're not really

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Speaker 2: sure what's going on. We cut to the day before.

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Speaker 2: We see Sammy going about his day. He lives in

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Speaker 2: a community of mostly sharecroppers who work on a cotton plantation.

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Speaker 2: Then we meet twin brothers, Smoke and Stack, both played

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Speaker 2: by Michael B.

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Speaker 3: Jordan, and they're doing the amazing twin shorthand where one's

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Speaker 3: wearing a hat that's one color and one where is

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Speaker 3: wearing a hat that's another color. And I just twin media,

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Speaker 3: I was getting I will say I was getting burnt

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Speaker 3: out on famous men playing their own twins, because that

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Speaker 3: was happening a lot, like maybe ten years ago. But

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Speaker 3: when Michael B. Jordan does it, it's just something completely different.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a special street, it.

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Speaker 3: Is, and he does an incredible job of like building

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Speaker 3: out two very distinct characters. Like when I was seeing

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Speaker 3: it for the first time, I forgot a few times

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Speaker 3: that you know, it's the same actor.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of people did. They were like, wait,

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Speaker 2: does Michael B. Jordan have a twin that no one

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Speaker 2: knows about?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Like it's like, nope, Rammy Mallick style. That's one

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Speaker 3: of my Like what Rammy Malick has a twin and

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Speaker 3: his name is wait for it, Sammy Malick. Whoa wow

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Speaker 3: to something I think about a lot.

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Speaker 4: That's totally fair.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, doesn't Vin Diesel have a twin brother too?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Really?

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Speaker 2: But not identical?

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Speaker 3: That's so wild to think of two Vin Diesels at

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Speaker 3: once that I don't know if I would want.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't even want one Vin Diesel.

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I'm here for it, but I would

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Speaker 4: be for us straight to be Vin Diesel's brother. But

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Speaker 4: not identical.

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Speaker 3: That's true. Oh my god, Vin Diesel's fraternal twin. That

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Speaker 3: is a curse of sorts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in any case, Yes, there's one brother who wears

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Speaker 2: blue and that's smoke and the other one wears red

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Speaker 2: and that's Stack. They have just arrived back in Mississippi

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Speaker 2: from Chicago. We learn that they were bootleggers there. They

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Speaker 2: have a lot of cash from that, and they meet

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Speaker 2: up with a white man named Hogwood, who sells them

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Speaker 2: an old sawmill which they plan to turn into a

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Speaker 2: juke joint. And the twins tell this guy Hogwood, like,

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Speaker 2: our business here is done. If we ever see you

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Speaker 2: or your clan buddies on this property again, will kill

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Speaker 2: them parentheses more foreshadowing. Then Smoke and Stack link up

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Speaker 2: with Sammy, who's their cousin and who's going to play

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Speaker 2: guitar at the juke joint that night, and they start

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Speaker 2: getting everything else ready to open the joint, which they're

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Speaker 2: going to do that night. And I was like, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, that's the fastest turnaround I've ever heard of.

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Speaker 3: It's a pop up. It's a pop up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and they put together something incredible.

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Speaker 2: So good on them. I would not have been able

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Speaker 2: to turn that around so quickly, but I.

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Speaker 3: Did enjoy sort of the thought experiment of if literally

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Speaker 3: one person says no to the Twins throughout this day,

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Speaker 3: the plan is pretty thoroughly fucked but they just I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's to Michael B. Jordan's. They know no one's going to.

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Speaker 4: Say now exactly. You can't say now. Yeah, yeah, yes.

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Speaker 2: So Smoke goes into a market owned by a couple

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Speaker 2: Bo and Grace Chow played by Yao and Lee Jion

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Speaker 2: Lee to place an order for catfish and to commission

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Speaker 2: a sign for the juke joint. Meanwhile, Stack and Sammy

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Speaker 2: go to the train station to hire another musician named

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Speaker 2: Slim played by Delroy Lindo.

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Speaker 4: Also no complaints on this side.

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Speaker 3: Great casting. Love Delroy Lindo the voice Alion. Yeah, truly, like,

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Speaker 3: oh god, he's just the best. I used to I

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Speaker 3: wrote fan fiction about him in college, which wow, is

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Speaker 3: a lor reveal like erotic.

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Speaker 2: Fanfic or no.

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Speaker 3: It was literally just fiction about like what do I

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Speaker 3: think he's up to at his house?

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Speaker 2: Amazing?

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Speaker 3: It was for like a class, But anyways.

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Speaker 4: That's a beautiful excuse.

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Speaker 3: I was just waiting for an excuse to speculate on

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Speaker 3: what he's up to and he was. Also I think

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Speaker 3: he should have won an Oscar for the five Woods

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Speaker 3: and didn't, and I will not let that go anytime

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Speaker 3: soon anyways, and.

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Speaker 2: You shouldn't They hire him, and they hire a man

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Speaker 2: called Cornbread to be the bouncer of the juke joint. Also,

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Speaker 2: Stack runs into a woman named Mary played by Hailey Steinfeld.

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Speaker 2: She's a former lover of his who he grew up

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Speaker 2: with and who seems like he ditched back in Chicago

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Speaker 2: like you do, like you do, so their relationship is

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Speaker 2: a bit contentious at the moment. Meanwhile, Smoke pays a

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Speaker 2: visit to a former lover of his, a woman named

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Speaker 2: Annie played by one Me Musaku. They have a lot

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Speaker 2: of history as well, some of it is painful, including

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Speaker 2: a baby they had together that died. And Smoke shows

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Speaker 2: up he wants to reconnect. He asks Annie if she'll

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Speaker 2: cook at the juke joint tonight, and then they start

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Speaker 2: smooching and having sex with each other.

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Speaker 3: A very horny movie. As for me, I mean all

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Speaker 3: of the we'll talk about this in the discussion as well,

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Speaker 3: but just the costuming in this movie is unreal. Everyone

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Speaker 3: looks i mean, I'm assuming period appropriate, but also just

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Speaker 3: so profoundly hot. It's wild. As every character is introduced,

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Speaker 3: You're just like, this is the greatest outfit I've ever seen, which.

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Speaker 4: Is very, very true for the period. I feel in

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Speaker 4: African American culture to just always be dressed the nine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the tailoring and this, I hope this wins her

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Speaker 3: another Oscar. But this is Ryan Coogler worked with her

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Speaker 3: on Black Panther and Black Panther Wakonda Forever Ruth E. Carter,

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Speaker 3: and she won Oscars for costume design on both Black Panthers,

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Speaker 3: and she should win again. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Everyone looks amazing, very hot. Yes, so they're they're smooching

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Speaker 2: and then and sex and sexing. Then we cut to

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Speaker 2: a mysterious white man who seems to fall out of

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Speaker 2: the sky and his skin.

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Speaker 4: Is burning again like they do, like.

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Speaker 3: White people do. This is period appropriate.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is just a universal truth.

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Speaker 3: There were cursed Irish vampires falling from the sky.

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Speaker 2: This time he approaches a house and he tells the

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Speaker 2: white couple who live there, who are clan members, that

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Speaker 2: a group of native men tried to rob and kill him,

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Speaker 2: so the couple takes him in. Now, the chalk Taw

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Speaker 2: people show up a little while later and tell the

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Speaker 2: couple that they're pursuing someone very dangerous, someone who's not

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Speaker 2: what he seems. Because it turns out this man Remiic

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Speaker 2: played by j O'Connell is a vampire who attacks the

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Speaker 2: couple and turns them into vampires. Yes, and speaking of

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Speaker 2: quick turnarounds, the vampire incubation period in this movie seems

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Speaker 2: it's very sweat a matter of minutes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, as long as long as the plot needs.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And if there was any question if this couple is

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Speaker 3: wildly racist, they are sooner to uh let a man

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Speaker 3: who's obviously lying and covered in like sores and boils

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Speaker 3: into their home than have a conversation with a native person.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's called white privilege.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yes, it is covered in sores and boils and

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Speaker 3: somehow got in the door.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and had to be invited in which they do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. That it seems to be the one rule of

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Speaker 3: vampires here. Although you get the garlic, you got the classics,

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Speaker 3: the classic garlic, the sunlight.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, they retain the classic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the stake through the heart, Yeah for sure. Then

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Speaker 2: we cut to the Duke Joint. It's opening up. People

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Speaker 2: are arriving. The clientele is entirely black, aside from Mary,

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Speaker 2: who does have some black ancestry. She says that her

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Speaker 2: maternal grandfather was half black, which I believe is also

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Speaker 2: true for Hailey Steinfeld as well, thinks so yeah, though

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Speaker 2: she passes as a white woman. We also meet Perline

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Speaker 2: or I think we've already met her. She's played by

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Speaker 2: Jamie Lawson, and she and Sammy are vibing. Then Sammy

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Speaker 2: starts playing his guitar and singing the blues, and then

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Speaker 2: we get like the sequence of the movie, the one

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Speaker 2: where we see people playing music and dancing from the

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Speaker 2: past from the future, with the same voiceover from the beginning,

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Speaker 2: suggesting that Sammy has this spiritual musical talent that was

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Speaker 2: previously discussed and this music seems to attract that vampire man.

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Speaker 2: Remic with him is the couple that he just turned

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Speaker 2: into vampires. This is Joan and Bert, and they all

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Speaker 2: show up outside the Duke joint saying that they are

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Speaker 2: musicians and they want to come in and eat and

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Speaker 2: drink and play music. Cornbread the bouncer and Smoke and

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Speaker 2: Stack and everyone are very suspicious of them, but Smoke

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Speaker 2: and Stack and some of the others kind of like

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Speaker 2: weigh the pros and cons of letting them in, of course,

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Speaker 2: not realizing that they're vampires.

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Speaker 3: Well, and also like they make it disturbingly clear that

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Speaker 3: they're like, will be right over there, so they're also

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Speaker 3: like leering nearby, lingering, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And they realize that they could use these white people's money,

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Speaker 2: so Mary suggests she goes and talks to them to

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Speaker 2: kind of find out what their deal is. And they're

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Speaker 2: weird and creepy, and it seems like they're about to

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Speaker 2: attack her, and I think that.

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Speaker 3: Like they specifically prey on the fact that her mom

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Speaker 3: recently died, because that was the one thing that I

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Speaker 3: was like, why did we learn that detail? I didn't remember?

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Speaker 3: And then it seems like that is like one of

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Speaker 3: the tricks.

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Speaker 2: Then a short time later, Mary goes back inside via cornbread,

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Speaker 2: saying like, go ahead on in, which is how she's

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Speaker 2: able to get back inside because she's a vampire now.

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Speaker 2: And she seduces Stack and they go into a room

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Speaker 2: and start having some more sex, but oh no, she

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Speaker 2: bites him and sucks his blood, which Smoke walks in on.

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Speaker 2: So he shoots Mary a bunch of times, but she

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Speaker 2: gets right back up on account of being undead and

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Speaker 2: runs off into the night, and everyone's like, what the

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Speaker 2: fuck was that all about? People rush to Stack's aid,

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Speaker 2: but he dies kind of in the way that vampires do,

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Speaker 2: and Smoke is devastated. They send all of the patrons home,

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Speaker 2: though people like Sammy, Annie, Slim Pearlein, Bo, and Grace

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Speaker 2: stay behind, but Grace wants to leave, so Bo goes

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Speaker 2: out to pull the car around. Meanwhile, Cornbread had gone

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Speaker 2: off to use the bathroom and he's attacked by the

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Speaker 2: vampires and he comes back. He's acting weird. He wants

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Speaker 2: to be let in, and then Stak, whose body they

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Speaker 2: locked in the room, starts trying to get out, pretending

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Speaker 2: like he's not a vampire.

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Speaker 3: I love the shots where they're having like a conference

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Speaker 3: outside being like I don't know, Oh should we? I

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Speaker 3: don't know, I don't know, And then you cut back

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Speaker 3: to him and he's like going full vampire mode at

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Speaker 3: this like wild angle. It's just it's awesome.

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Speaker 2: He's like, I'm not a vampire? What are you talking about?

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Speaker 4: Him?

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Speaker 3: He was like, guys, come on, come on, what's the

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Speaker 3: where is that gould happen?

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Speaker 2: So he bursts out and runs out into the night,

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Speaker 2: after Annie throws pickle garlic on him because she realizes

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Speaker 2: they're dealing with vampires, which means the plan is to

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Speaker 2: stay in the juke joint until sunrise and gather whatever

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Speaker 2: weapons they can in case they need to fight. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: the vampires have turned basically everyone who was at the

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Speaker 2: juke joint, so it's like several dozen people into vampires

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Speaker 2: and they're all doing an Irish jig. Back inside, Annie

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Speaker 2: has everyone eat a clove of garlic to make sure

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Speaker 2: that no one is a secret vampire, and it turns

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Speaker 2: out they're not. But then Bo comes back around, acting

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Speaker 2: very vampirey, and Remick is right behind him, saying that

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Speaker 2: he knows everything that Bo knows because the vampires kind

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Speaker 2: of share like a collective consciousness, and Remick says that

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Speaker 2: Sammy is the one he's after. He wants to absorb

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Speaker 2: this musical gift so that he can travel through time,

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Speaker 2: so to speak, and be brought back to his people.

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Speaker 2: Remick is also caring on about how this vampire group

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Speaker 2: is all about like free love and fellowship and family,

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Speaker 2: but actually their vibes are very sinister, and Remiic threatens

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Speaker 2: to go after Bo and Grace's daughter Lisa if they

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Speaker 2: don't let the vampires inside, so Grace starts freaking out

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Speaker 2: and screams like, come on in, you motherfuckers effectively inviting

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Speaker 2: the vampires inside, so they russian. A battle ensues. Vampire

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Speaker 2: Stack goes after Annie and bites her, so Smoke has

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Speaker 2: to kill her because he had promised that he would

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Speaker 2: drive a stake through her heart before she turned.

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Speaker 3: Because Annie is a pragmatist to her core, she is like,

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Speaker 3: let's stop being sentimental. This is a vampire movie, which

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Speaker 3: is always my favorite character in the vampire movie, right, right.

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Speaker 2: So then Stak goes after Smoke so that they can

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Speaker 2: be immortal vampire brothers together, and so Smoke has to

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Speaker 2: decide if he's going to kill his brother, can he

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Speaker 2: do it? Cut to Remick descending on Sammy and he's

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Speaker 2: a to turn him, but just then Smoke gets Remick

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Speaker 2: with a steak in the heart and saves Sammy. And

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Speaker 2: then the sun comes up and they watch as Remick

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Speaker 2: and the other vampires burst into flames and perish. But

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Speaker 2: the battle is not over because earlier, Remick had revealed

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Speaker 2: that Hogwood, the white man who sold the brothers the

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Speaker 2: juke Joint, is the Grand Dragon of the KKK, and

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Speaker 2: he intended to kill everyone at this establishment. So Smoke

401
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Speaker 2: gears up for another fight as he reflects on the

402
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: day before, we get this montage of all the work

403
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Speaker 2: that went into opening up the juke joint. We're also

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Speaker 2: seeing Sammy go into his father's church, the same scene

405
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Speaker 2: that we saw in the beginning of the movie. And

406
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:59,719
Speaker 2: then the clan arrives at the juke Joint and Smoke

407
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Speaker 2: starts shooting them with his artillery of rifles and machine guns,

408
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Speaker 2: and he kills them all but is shot in the

409
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Speaker 2: process and starts bleeding out and seeing a vision of

410
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Speaker 2: Annie breastfeeding their baby, signifying that he's dying and joining

411
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Speaker 2: them in the afterlife. Then there's an epilogue where Sammy,

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Speaker 2: now an old man in nineteen ninety two in Chicago,

413
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Speaker 2: performs regularly at.

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Speaker 3: This club and he's also a buddy guy.

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Speaker 4: Very important detail.

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Speaker 3: Yes what it incredible, I think one of the most

417
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Speaker 3: inspired cameos of our time.

418
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Speaker 4: Also known as dead yes for those.

419
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Speaker 2: And late one night at the club, he has two visitors,

420
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Speaker 2: Stack and Mary, because it turns out that Smoke never

421
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Speaker 2: killed his brother Stack as long as Stack promised to

422
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Speaker 2: never go after Sammy, which he kept his promise, and

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Speaker 2: Stack does offer to turn Sammy into a vampire to

424
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Speaker 2: make him immortal, but Sammy's like, no thanks, I'll just

425
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Speaker 2: die the regular way. And then he's like, but before

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Speaker 2: all that horrible stuff happened that night, that was the

427
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Speaker 2: best day of my life. You and Stack is like same.

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Speaker 2: That was the last time I saw my brother, and

429
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Speaker 2: for those few hours at the juke joint, we were free.

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Speaker 2: And that's the note that the movie ends on. So

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Speaker 2: let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

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Speaker 3: And we are back Dahlia in the grand tradition of

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Speaker 3: the show. Where would you like to start the discussion?

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Speaker 3: What's sticking out to you?

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00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 4: Oh? Oh, there are so many places to go.

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00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know every time I'm like, oh this is

437
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 3: Is this a mean thing to do to our guests?

438
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 4: Oh? A little bit, a little bit. There are so

439
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 4: many different things to choose in this film because it's

440
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 4: so multi layered. I guess one thing I would say

441
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 4: it does. It did strike me as odd because you know,

442
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 4: you have the grand montage scene that I think we

443
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 4: all took home with us in our hearts, but I

444
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 4: did expect there to be more to come of that

445
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 4: and a bit more exploration of that theme. So that

446
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 4: struck me as a little strange.

447
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: You mean the scene where it's kind of like we're

448
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 2: trying through time and seeing all of the musicians.

449
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we just do it once. We just established

450
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 4: that it is a power that he has that he

451
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 4: just happens to have. I don't know that it's particularly

452
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 4: utilized to any meaningful impact aside from you know, incidentally

453
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 4: attracting vampire vampires.

454
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right, because there is mention that, like Remick says,

455
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 2: I want to absorb this power so that I can

456
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: like access people from my past. Because it's not super

457
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: explicit how old he is slash how long he's been

458
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: a vampire, but he makes reference to living in like

459
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: pre colonized by England, Ireland.

460
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it's supposed to go back to

461
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 3: I was looking into because I was trying to figure

462
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 3: out like, yeah, this this movie's relationship with like time

463
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 3: in generational trauma is like you're saying, Dahlia, it's like

464
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 3: really really complex and also not at least for me.

465
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 3: I had to like do outside research to understand like

466
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 3: how much time was being covered because I guess canonically

467
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 3: the Irish vampire is from like the eleven hundreds, like

468
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 3: he is ancient, which is like interesting but we don't.

469
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 3: I don't think we technically know that, right, Yeah, I

470
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 3: agree with you, Dalliah, Like I think that it's such

471
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: a like it's it's the image that everyone takes home,

472
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 3: and I feel like the closest you get to a

473
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 3: meaningful payoff is Buddy Guy. Is that like he is

474
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 3: the character, which I do think is good. Right, It's

475
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 3: like he is the character who lives on and like

476
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 3: I really there is I don't know. I usually absolutely

477
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 3: cannot stand post credit scenes, but this one's amazing.

478
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's one of the very you justified ones.

479
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: Right where it's like he's turning down eternal life and

480
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 3: I feel like, or I don't know, the way I

481
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 3: was like seeing the undercurrent to that is first of all,

482
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 3: that's a curse. We've all seen a movie. We know that.

483
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 3: But also that like he is immortal in a way

484
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 3: because he like lived to be able to make art

485
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 3: and like contribute to culture and like keep the legacy

486
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 3: of the blues music he was playing at the juke

487
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 3: joint continued, So it's like he doesn't need to live forever.

488
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 3: And that's like part of what is so sad about

489
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 3: the vampires is they didn't get to live long enough

490
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: to to have that.

491
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 4: I don't know, yeh, And I think it also in

492
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 4: part this is very esoteric, but it does also in

493
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 4: a way play into an African sense of time, where

494
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 4: death is not definitively the end of life. It's just

495
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 4: a transition into a much larger past.

496
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just this is very scholarly of me, But

497
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 2: I watched an Instagram reel what Yeah I watch about

498
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: everyone that was it was a woman talking about the

499
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: African concept of time, and she's explaining that it's the

500
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: idea that like time is comprised of events that you

501
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: experience in the present and events that have been experienced

502
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: in the past, and because it's impossible to experience future

503
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: events that haven't happened yet, the concept of the future is.

504
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 4: The future doesn't necessarily.

505
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 2: Exist right right, which I really like. But as far

506
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,959
Speaker 2: as the concept of time, past, present and future in

507
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: the movie, the sequence in the juke Joint where like

508
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: time is being transcended via the music, I guess I'd

509
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: like to didn't think that much about it because I

510
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: was just like, Wow, this is so cool, and then

511
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: I forgot to do my job and think harder.

512
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 4: But no, no, it's a cool scene that it achieved

513
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 4: its goal. Clearly it sticks with everyone.

514
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it, yeah, because it's like you're covering

515
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 3: so I mean again, it's like I don't know enough

516
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 3: history in general to say, like what the time period is,

517
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 3: but it definitely goes into the past into the future.

518
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 3: I like that. It also felt very cool that with

519
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 3: Bo and Grace, like their culture was represented near them,

520
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 3: and then there were the creepy white lurkers right outside

521
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 3: who I don't know. I feel like you're not supposed

522
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 3: to understand in that moment, but it's like part of

523
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 3: what makes them so horrible is like they want to

524
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 3: have that, but they can't conceive of having that without

525
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 3: taking it from someone.

526
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I suppose we may as well dive into

527
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 4: the cultural and racial component of it. I think it

528
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,719
Speaker 4: would be irresponsible of us, not too obviously.

529
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 3: Wait, what do you mean, No, Yeah, yeah.

530
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 4: I do think it's interesting that they did include the

531
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 4: Chinese couple, which was not a detail that I would

532
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 4: have personally thought to include, but it is apparently very

533
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 4: important historically the connection between the African American and Asian

534
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 4: American communities, particularly in the South at that time.

535
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 3: I didn't know that. Yeah, I mean I learned a

536
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 3: lot about like this specific time in this specific place.

537
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 3: I knew it was the time of the Great Migration,

538
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 3: but I wasn't aware of I mean, I know that

539
00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 3: this is like a failure of public schooling to some extent,

540
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 3: is how diverse these areas were and how diverse these

541
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 3: communities were, And actually seeing that brought to life in

542
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 3: a movie is like critical because there's going to be

543
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 3: kids who are being failed in schools right now who

544
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 3: will see this movie.

545
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: And you know there's it has a role in it.

546
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: Speaking of being very scholarly, I read a piece on Medium.

547
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 3: Wow, I'm just getting all that. Wait, what is the

548
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 3: one thing more scholarly than.

549
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: Real aside from Wikipedia of course, scholarly journal.

550
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 4: Yes, next thing you're going to like drop a TikTok

551
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:39,479
Speaker 4: on us.

552
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: I mean, look, there's things to be learned.

553
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 3: I feel like that's foreshadowing. Wait, are we going to

554
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,399
Speaker 3: hit a TikTok? We'll get there, We'll get there.

555
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe No. But this piece I found to be

556
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 2: really interesting by a writer named Brian Vaden, who broke

557
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: down the motif of money and power and control and

558
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: the movie and how all of these things relate to

559
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 2: each other. I'll just quote this quote. We also meet

560
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 2: an Asian family running multiple convenience stores that serve both

561
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: black and white customers on either side of a segregated street.

562
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,720
Speaker 2: Its placement in the film is highly intentional. It shows

563
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 2: how some communities figured out how to navigate and survive

564
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 2: between two systems, how to offer services and goods to

565
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: both without fully belonging to either. It's a quiet commentary

566
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: on strategy, assimilation, and the complicated intersections of race and

567
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 2: commerce in the post Slavery South unquote. Which the point

568
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: being that Ryan Kugler made so many intentional choices when

569
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 2: it comes to the motifs present in the movie. Because

570
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 2: I do want to talk a lot more about money

571
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: and currency and negotiation.

572
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 3: And like that, because this Vivie very firmly says capitalism

573
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 3: will not save us, correct, And I just Ryan Cougler's awesome,

574
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 3: Like he both says that and directs billion dollar movies.

575
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 3: And you're like, yeah, it's working for me. I don't know,

576
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 3: it's complicated. I didn't realize because I didn't watch much

577
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 3: of the press junket for this movie, but that, like

578
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 3: Ryan Cougler gave a series of really great interviews about

579
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 3: various aspects of the movies, and they're like and there's

580
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 3: so much to talk about, but that this was like

581
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 3: a pretty personal story for him because he's famously from Oakland,

582
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 3: but he had his grandfather or no, sorry, his uncle.

583
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 3: He was originally from Mississippi, and so a lot of

584
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 3: this story was inspired by both the music and the

585
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 3: history that he heard from his uncle when he was

586
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 3: very young. And you know, says basically that he didn't

587
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 3: really think that much about what this period of time

588
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 3: would have actually been like in the way that no

589
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 3: one is actually really listening to their uncles until it's

590
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 3: too late kind of thing, but that he realized that

591
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 3: he had this sort of wealth of experience through his

592
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 3: own family to talk about this period of time in

593
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 3: the South. His wife, Zinzy Kugler, who I also learned

594
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 3: through researching this movie that their first date was to

595
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 3: see Bring It On in Oakland, which I love.

596
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 2: I know, wait, like back in ninety nine when it

597
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 2: came out.

598
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, they've been together since they were like young. It's

599
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 3: very very sweet. So that's just a fun fact. But

600
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,439
Speaker 3: that both of their families were really helpful in sort

601
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 3: of like building out the historical specificity. Ryan Cougler was

602
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 3: thinking about his uncles, he was thinking about the generation

603
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,479
Speaker 3: before them, and I guess that as Zinzi Coogler also

604
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 3: had living elderly relatives who had also lived in the

605
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 3: South in this time, and that this was like very

606
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 3: much what he was pulling from. And you can feel

607
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 3: that like historical specificity here even in the middle of

608
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 3: a vampire movie, which is like who knows how he

609
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 3: did that?

610
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 4: And I do guess this is the point where I

611
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 4: because I want you to give the synopsis first, but

612
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 4: I will now dive into some of my deeper connections

613
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 4: with the film.

614
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

615
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 2: Please.

616
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 4: Similarly, my maternal grandfather is from the Mississippi Delta and

617
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 4: did move to Chicago as part of the northern migration.

618
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 4: Also may or may not have allegedly hit some ties

619
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 4: with the mafia.

620
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 3: Allegedly, it happens, It happens, and we're not judging well,

621
00:38:54,840 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 3: as this movie explores, because of the cycle of poverty

622
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 3: and because of racism and class disparity.

623
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 4: And also, like many black people, particularly of my generation,

624
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 4: I had some sketchy uncles I absolutely adored, but they

625
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 4: were not good role models. Sadly, big bed Bill, who

626
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 4: went on to be known as Sweet William, passed away

627
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 4: before he could show me the sights. There were floating

628
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 4: quotations there for listeners at home, and I feel like

629
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 4: the sites are alluded to in this film as well

630
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 4: for those of you who know. But yeah, so in

631
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 4: a lot of ways, watching the film, it did hit

632
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 4: on a lot of my own personal family background. So

633
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 4: it's very personal, very real to me. Definitely touched on

634
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 4: a lot of themes of my childhood and just the

635
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 4: legacy that has been passed down through my family. The

636
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 4: other side of my mom family is also Creole, so

637
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 4: we do also have an entire section of the family

638
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 4: that we don't speak to because they were able to

639
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 4: pass as white and chose to do so.

640
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 2: And I mean that might relate to a conversation we

641
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 2: can have at some point about Mary Mary, the Hailey

642
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:27,919
Speaker 2: Steinfeld character. But yeah, there's so much to dive into. Yeah,

643
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 2: can we talk about the motif slash theme of class, money, currency, trade,

644
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: and negotiation. So, as we mentioned in the recap, most

645
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 2: of the characters we see in this movie are black

646
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: people trapped in poverty. They are only a few generations

647
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 2: removed from slavery. Many of the characters we see are

648
00:40:52,000 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: sharecroppers working on plantations. We see them use currency called plantations.

649
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 2: Some of that's like paper money, some of it's wooden coins.

650
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: This is currency that was paid to plantation workers sharecroppers

651
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 2: that could only be spent at plantation run stores. So

652
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: it was basically just a way to trap black sharecroppers

653
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 2: in the cycle of poverty and keep them in debt.

654
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 3: And as well as I mean, I feel like there

655
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 3: were a series of intentional shots of and this is

656
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 3: like kind of demonstrated towards the beginning between Sammy and

657
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 3: the Twins, where Sammy, like many young people, is focused

658
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 3: on being like I just have to get out of

659
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 3: where I am, and if I can get out of

660
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 3: where I am, I'm going to be in a better place,

661
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 3: because anywhere is better than here, right, Like the character

662
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 3: we recognize and the twins who have just spent a

663
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 3: lot of time in Chicago, they have the sort of

664
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 3: wisdom to be like, okay, But and then as they're

665
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 3: having the conversation, they're surrounded by how even though you know,

666
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 3: chattel slavery is technically abolished, they are passing through majority

667
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 3: black chain gangs. They're passing through prison labor, We're meeting

668
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 3: sharecroppers who are being ripped off right and left. Like

669
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 3: the whole environment of this movie is intentionally reminding you

670
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 3: that white supremacy is finding a way. Regardless.

671
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 4: You do bring up a good point where the montage

672
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 4: of traveling through time doesn't necessarily have to be dissected

673
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 4: more since it is the theme of the entire film,

674
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 4: since you know, it is ostensibly a period piece, but

675
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 4: the reverberations of that period are still very much present

676
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 4: even right now.

677
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's that scene where Sammy is, you know,

678
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 2: he's telling his cousins, I want to leave this area.

679
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 2: I want to go to Chicago. He seems to think

680
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: that because there are no Jim Crow laws there, that

681
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: maybe he won't have to deal with racism, and the

682
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 2: twins are like, that is incorrect. And they've been able

683
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 2: to to some extent escape this cycle of poverty via

684
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: you know, bootlegging and organized crime and things like that.

685
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 3: But it's also like, is it stealing if it's from

686
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 3: fucking scumbag white supremacists. It isn't. It is not, but

687
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 3: it does feel I don't know, let me let me

688
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 3: know what you both think. It feels like at the beginning,

689
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:39,760
Speaker 3: the twins feeling is that money is the only means

690
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 3: of escape, and then the movie kind of dissects why

691
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 3: that is not true.

692
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, And really, what the theme is touching on is

693
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 4: this phenomenon of black capitalism and the assumption that we

694
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 4: can wealth our way out of white supremacy.

695
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is like a I mean it is. I mean,

696
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,439
Speaker 3: I know everyone who made this movie is well aware

697
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 3: of this, but it does feel, in spite of taking

698
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 3: place ninety two years ago, still very like we're asking

699
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 3: the same questions now.

700
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, because there are various conversations about freedom, how

701
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: to achieve that as a black person in the gym

702
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 2: Crow South, And there's a line where Smoke is talking

703
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: to Annie and he's saying something like, I've been all

704
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 2: over the world. We also learned that Smoke and Stack

705
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 2: were World War One veterans, and we're presumably overseas in Europe.

706
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 3: See, this is on my public school education, not to

707
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 3: say private would be better. This is on my education.

708
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 3: I wrote down World War two and now that you

709
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 3: say that was like nineteen thirty two, No, that would

710
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 3: not have been possible got it, got it.

711
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: But anyway, Smoke says that he's been all over the

712
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 2: world and he's never seen magic or ghosts or demons,

713
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 2: just power, and the only thing that can get you

714
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: that is money. First of all, he spoke too soon,

715
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 2: because he will be seeing demons very shortly. Second, yes,

716
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 2: money does give people access to power, but he seems

717
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 2: to be of the mindset that again, he and his

718
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 2: community will achieve liberation via capitalism. But we know that

719
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 2: capitalism is one of the major things that prevents black

720
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 2: liberation or liberation of any kind.

721
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 4: And again, you know, it's important to note that the

722
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 4: reason the vampires are essentially invited in is because the

723
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,439
Speaker 4: money that is being used by the black people it's

724
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 4: ostensibly not good enough. You can't keep the business open

725
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 4: on the black dollar alone. You also need the white

726
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 4: dollar and naturally have the Uh, we're going to go

727
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 4: ahead and continue saying white passing, but also, let's face it,

728
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 4: white the white woman who has this greater proximity and

729
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 4: comfort with white culture, who then feels that it is

730
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 4: safe and ostensibly perhaps even her duty as sort of

731
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 4: a white savior figure, you know, just perhaps incidentally named Mary,

732
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 4: to go out and bring in the white dollar to

733
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 4: ostensibly rescue or lift up the black community.

734
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: Right, it's also gold coins that mister Vampire has, so

735
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: it's it's this sort of almost like universally accepted form

736
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 2: of currency. But yeah, because we see a man wanting

737
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 2: to pay for his drink with the wooden nickels that

738
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 2: he received as payment on the plantation, and Smoke is

739
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 2: very reticent to accept them, and Stack and Annie and

740
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 2: pushback say like, we need to accept the money that

741
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 2: they have so that we can cultivate a space where

742
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 2: the patrons feel like they belong here. It's for them,

743
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 2: their money is good here. But there's like all this

744
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 2: kind of push and pull on what currency is acceptable.

745
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 4: And worth Noting the earlier scene in the movie where

746
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:38,320
Speaker 4: Annie's in her store selling groceries to children for random

747
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 4: scraps of paper.

748
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, this movie has such a careful relationship with colonized

749
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 3: people's across a very wide spectrum, right where I think

750
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 3: that the colonize people that we don't get to know

751
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 3: are the native community at the very beginning with the

752
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 3: chalk Tak characters, the Chalktaw people we meet in one scene,

753
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 3: which I don't think is like you know, a malicious

754
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 3: choice at all, but it is. It does sort of

755
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 3: hit the point home that because the chalk Talk community

756
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 3: is introduced very intentionally in relation to this fucking clan couple,

757
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 3: that it would have been I think, like one of

758
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 3: the notes I have about this movie is that it

759
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 3: would have been very possible to introduce a chalk Tak

760
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 3: character who we get to know and who we get

761
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 3: to know in relation to everyone else in the movie,

762
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 3: because I think that this movie, we know is capable

763
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 3: of presenting a very diverse and specific community. I mean,

764
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 3: we know that because the people that are trapped in

765
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 3: the juke joint. We have the white woman in the

766
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 3: form of Mary, we have a majority black clientele and management,

767
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 3: and we have the Chinese family. And Yeah, one of

768
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 3: the things that I wish and and could have happened

769
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 3: is to meaningfully include the chalk Talk characters, because they

770
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 3: do appear intentionally, but not in a way that we

771
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 3: know who any character's name is or.

772
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're just sort of these vague, magical people off

773
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 4: to the side.

774
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 2: I know about the vampire and are chasing him, but

775
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 2: we don't know how they know about or what the

776
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 2: backstory is there.

777
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 3: Which is and it's a shame because it's like, this

778
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 3: is a movie that is open to magic. It is

779
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 3: a vampire movie. Yeah, and so it's like not bringing

780
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 3: in the chalk talk characters felt like a clear missed opportunity.

781
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 4: Agree, But the other.

782
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 3: The other communities we get to know here. I mean,

783
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 3: I think that there was a lot made of and

784
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 3: I have a couple quotes here about the choice of

785
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 3: presenting the black characters in relation to this Irish vampire

786
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 3: because the.

787
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 4: Irish choice is very intentional.

788
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 3: Very intentional, and like, couldn't be there they are doing

789
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 3: the dance, and so as an Irish I was like,

790
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 3: let's let's fight out more. And Ryan Cougler, I mean,

791
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 3: he had a lot to say about this choice, and

792
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 3: so I just wanted to share sort of his expansion

793
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 3: on why he chose that, because I think it has

794
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 3: a lot to say about how white communities who have

795
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 3: been colonized make a big deal about having been colonized,

796
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 3: but ultimately aligned with whiteness over other communities that have

797
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:50,760
Speaker 3: been oppressed in the same way. So Ryan Cougler told

798
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 3: Indie Wire, I'm obsessed with Irish folk music. My kids

799
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 3: are obsessed with it. My first name is Irish. I

800
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 3: think it's not known how much crossover there is between

801
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 3: African American culture and Irish culture and how much that

802
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 3: stuff's loved in our community. It was very important that

803
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 3: our master Vampire in this movie was unique and specific

804
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 3: as the situation was. It was important to me that

805
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 3: he was old, but also that he came from a

806
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 3: time that pre existed these racial definitions, so that he

807
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 3: would be extremely odd and that it would all seem

808
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 3: odd to him, but also that he would see it

809
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 3: for what it was and offer a sweet deal, if

810
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 3: that makes sense, and that the music was just as

811
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 3: beautiful so I mean, and there's a number of other

812
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 3: interviews he gave to this, but that was how I learned,

813
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 3: basically that the Irish Vampire was intended to be from

814
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 3: the eleven hundreds, when the English first colonized Ireland, where

815
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 3: this character is I think intended to be targeting Sammy,

816
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 3: coming from the place of I want to steal your

817
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 3: culture and your music because I want it to bring

818
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 3: me back to my culture instead of anything else. It

819
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,359
Speaker 3: is from a place of violent assimilation, which I feel

820
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 3: like comes through in this movie through Christianity and religion

821
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 3: like the role that religion had in this movie. I

822
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 3: don't think I fully appreciated at first.

823
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 2: Say I have a whole spiel on that. Yeah, I

824
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 2: mean pre the vampire attack. There are many moments of

825
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 2: this movie that sent her black joy. There's this focus

826
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 2: on community and music and dance and fun and letting

827
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 2: loose and sexual pleasure and things basically things that Sammy's

828
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 2: pastor father would consider a sin. And he very explicitly

829
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 2: says this to Sammy, where he is like, don't hang

830
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 2: around those sinners.

831
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 3: That's the name of the movie. And then everyone cheered

832
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:12,439
Speaker 3: in the in the crowd, yes, exactly the ticket bar.

833
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 2: But this ignores the concept of joy as resistance and

834
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 2: rest and relaxation as resistance.

835
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 3: And music and art as resistance. I feel like that

836
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 3: is what that's the whole scene. The quote unquote like

837
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 3: the scene is about, is about how black art and

838
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 3: black culture has a role in joy and resistance.

839
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I feel like a lot of you know,

840
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 2: organized Western religion misconstrues these acts of joy and rest

841
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 2: and relaxation and music and sexual pleasure and things like

842
00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 2: that as sin. And of course there's supremacy very entrenched

843
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 2: in that in terms of when white people do things,

844
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,320
Speaker 2: it's considered art and culture. When black people do things,

845
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 2: it's seen as witchcraft or hedonism. So obviously there's a

846
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:17,760
Speaker 2: huge double standard there. But my point is that rest

847
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:22,760
Speaker 2: and art and music and joy as resistance is often underestimated,

848
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 2: but it is very important and can be very effective.

849
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 2: But then we see the white vampires come in and

850
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 2: interfere with this night of joy and rest and music

851
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 2: and try to steal from this community.

852
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 4: But I do want to know that there is complexity

853
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 4: to it. There is, and I feel we're noting this,

854
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 4: but you know, there is the obvious layer of the

855
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 4: vampires are coming in stealing, but it's more multi layer

856
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 4: than that, because Remick is offering actual currency and Remick

857
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 4: is offering to bring in his music as well, So

858
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 4: there is an exchange. It's not being like a segregation.

859
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 4: There is a cultural exchange that is attempting to take place,

860
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 4: and Remick is offering this ostensibly gift of immortality, but

861
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 4: at what cost. So there is something being offered, it's

862
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 4: just a steep cost do you make that exchange.

863
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 3: Which, again it feels very intentional on Ryan Kugler's part

864
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 3: to establish space like negative space, but space between the

865
00:55:55,560 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 3: KKK and the Twins and the Blackmmunity and the sharecroppers,

866
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 3: where there are like he is like getting into all

867
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 3: of these shades of gray of Like there are communities

868
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 3: of white people who have been displaced from their homelands

869
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 3: who have chosen to ultimately align with whiteness, and that

870
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 3: is the vampiric quality of them. But they exist in

871
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 3: this separate, nefarious space that I don't know, Like I

872
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 3: don't I haven't seen very often addressed that there are

873
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:36,919
Speaker 3: so many layers to what the characters in this movie

874
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 3: are dealing with, and that like the vampires are horrible

875
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 3: and evil and wrong, and they also are existing in

876
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 3: a different reality than other villains in this story.

877
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, they are in fact better than the Klan.

878
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, which is like a very low bar to clear,

879
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 3: but there they are. Yeah. I that that relationship I

880
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 3: feel like I had never or i'd rarely seen made explicit.

881
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 3: And also the role that related, So getting back to

882
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 3: like religion, the role that religion has as a colonizing tool,

883
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 3: where there is like a very specific interaction between I

884
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 3: believe stack they're both Michael B.

885
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 2: Jordan and the brand One or the blue one.

886
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 3: I don't know one of them was a vampire already.

887
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 2: Oh Stack, Stack is the one who turns into a vampire.

888
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 3: Okay, so Smoke. There is an interaction that Smoke has

889
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 3: with the Irish vampires that felt in retrospect very explicit,

890
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,919
Speaker 3: where they're saying the Lord's Prayer and they're saying it

891
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 3: very irishly. They're using trespasses instead of sins, even though

892
00:57:56,040 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 3: it's the movie Sinners. And then he says explicitly, like

893
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 3: I learned you know, I'm summarizing, but like I learned

894
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 3: that prayer from the people who colonized us. I hate

895
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 3: them so much, but I still find comfort in the prayer,

896
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 3: and then he weaponizes it against Smoke, and like that

897
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 3: sort of level of all of the aggressions that have

898
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 3: to happen over a period of hundreds of thousands of

899
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 3: years to get to the point where no one can

900
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 3: align with each other and that these communities that should

901
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 3: actually be able to help each other won't. And it's

902
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 3: because that displays Irish communities are aligning with whiteness because

903
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 3: it makes them safer, And that's like what Mary's character

904
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 3: boils down too exactly.

905
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 4: It's essentially the safety of proximity to one's own oppressor absolutely, yeah, yeah,

906
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 4: and the invitation to become the oppressor.

907
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,919
Speaker 2: Absolutely, which most people will accept because it will give

908
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 2: them some sense of power, even if it's not actual power.

909
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 2: They'll perceive it as, oh, and now I have power

910
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 2: over others.

911
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, but Sinners explicitly makes it power that is tainted

912
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 3: and a curse.

913
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of the characters who are women, I wish

914
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 2: in general that women were more meaningfully integrated into the story.

915
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about it. Yeah, let's talk about it.

916
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 3: Who was to go first?

917
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 4: I'm glad that we fully praised the film first.

918
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 2: The movie is doing a lot of things right, no

919
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 2: doubt about it.

920
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 4: This was not one of them. A great, very reductive

921
00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 4: archetypes in my view. You know you have and I'm

922
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 4: going to mess this up, which is why I kept

923
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 4: my Wikipedia window open.

924
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 3: Hey, we all have, we all have.

925
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 4: Exactly make no mistake Grace. So we have. Grace and

926
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:22,880
Speaker 4: Annie are both maternal figures, which of course gives them

927
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 4: a special sort of status. Parlene, sort of your rudimentary,

928
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 4: undeveloped Jezebel archetype.

929
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. Perline especially pained me because the performance is incredible

930
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 3: and there and like, you just cannot justify her beyond Sammy,

931
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 3: and that sucks.

932
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

933
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 2: The one thing I'll say about her that I did

934
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 2: appreciate is that we see a representation on screen of

935
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 2: a woman receiving oral sex, which we almost never see.

936
01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 3: It's true I wanted to get off, but that's still

937
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 3: in really to Sammy.

938
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 2: To Sammy, Yes, yes, but you could also argue that

939
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 2: it's like this movie goes out of its way to

940
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 2: show female pleasure in a way that most movies don't

941
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 2: bother to.

942
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 4: And specifically black female pleasure. Yeah, you know. I think

943
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 4: it's also important to note that Annie is not this petite,

944
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 4: little Hollywood style vixen, but still absolutely given sexual power

945
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 4: within the context of the film.

946
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, absolutely to the point where it took me

947
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 2: by surprise that she is in a sex scene, just

948
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 2: because I'm so used to sex scenes in movies being

949
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 2: between two very thin people. Obviously, I'm not surprised that

950
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 2: anyone would be sexually attracted to her, like Musaku is gorgeous,

951
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 2: gorgeous person hot, but I was surprised that there was

952
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 2: a sex scene with a plus size woman.

953
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 4: Yes, a plus sized black woman. With Michael B.

954
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 2: Jordan exactly because most movies cannot conceive of the idea

955
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 2: that a thin, lean man who's as handsome as Michael B. Jordan,

956
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 2: for example, would be sexually attracted to a fat person.

957
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, it shouldn't be revolutionary and yet right exactly an

958
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 4: American cinema definitely is.

959
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely yeah.

960
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 3: I mean, and Andy's character in general, I mean again,

961
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 3: it's I think that there are a lot of missed

962
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 3: opportunities with women in general. But Annie is my favorite

963
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,959
Speaker 3: character in the movie. I think there is so much

964
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 3: to love about her, even though there couldn't should have

965
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 3: been more, but I really appreciate it. I mean, I

966
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 3: feel like her relationship to Whodoo does so much to

967
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 3: sort of bring us into the world of the movie

968
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 3: in a way that is very historically. They're living in

969
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 3: the South. Who do is spirituality that was originally developed

970
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 3: by enslaved people in the South that both honors the

971
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 3: time and place we're in and also is like something

972
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 3: about her that gives her authority. And she is not

973
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 3: dismissed for this. She is honored for it that and

974
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 3: and and other reasons. But it is one of the

975
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 3: major factors that whichever Michael B. Jordan she had a

976
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 3: relationship with. I struggle with both Smoke.

977
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:40,919
Speaker 4: I can't believe you can't tell Michael B. Jordan's a part.

978
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 3: I know that's one is blue and one is red.

979
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 3: No cancel, be canceled, be no, but that it's something

980
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 3: that Smoke defers to her for which is another. I mean, like,

981
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 3: I feel like her character, even going on off on

982
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 3: what we were just talking about, that she is the

983
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 3: character that is most connected to spirituality and is never

984
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 3: dismissed for it, as so often we see very spiritual,

985
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 3: witchier characters dismissed for She is right. She is by

986
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 3: a wide margin, the most pragmatic character in the story.

987
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 4: And genuinely moral.

988
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely where I mean, And I think like a

989
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:29,640
Speaker 3: clear demonstration of that that I hadn't noticed till, like

990
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 3: my last viewing was that she is both someone who

991
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 3: when the Irish vampire freaks ask well, why was Mary

992
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 3: allowed into the Duke joint, Annie is the first one

993
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 3: to say, because she's a part of our family. But

994
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 3: Annie is also the first to realize that Mary is

995
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 3: a vampire now and we have to get her the

996
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 3: fuck out, Like she is the only person in the

997
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 3: attire plot, who is able to see things for what

998
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 3: they are and also still love and feel And I

999
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:08,720
Speaker 3: just I don't know, I appreciate her character so much.

1000
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 3: The performance is amazing and yeah, I just love Annie.

1001
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, somehow captures a white spectrum of black womanhood despite

1002
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 4: her limited screen time and dialogue.

1003
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:30,920
Speaker 3: Yes, that's the thing, is like there, and I don't

1004
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:33,919
Speaker 3: hold it against the character that, like, the last time

1005
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:38,520
Speaker 3: we see her, she is very firmly a mother, and

1006
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 3: we know enough about her to know that is not

1007
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 3: how her character is defined. But there's so much we

1008
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 3: don't know about her where like we really only get

1009
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 3: a glimpse of how clearly I mean, like when we

1010
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 3: meet her and she is like doing that interaction with

1011
01:05:56,120 --> 01:06:00,720
Speaker 3: the child when Smoke comes back, we get a clear

1012
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 3: indication that she's very important to her community, but we

1013
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:06,480
Speaker 3: don't really get to see very much of that.

1014
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, she gets to be mother, savior and murder,

1015
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 4: but not a lot of time to be a person.

1016
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 3: And that fucking sounds Yeah yeah, well when you put

1017
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 3: it that way, it sucks because we know her for

1018
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:26,439
Speaker 3: such a short time and it seems like, like, I mean,

1019
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 3: it would have been great to see her with a

1020
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 3: close friend, you know, just someone who she was not

1021
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 3: actively feeling either uncomfortable around or beefing with, because I

1022
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 3: feel like those are those are the characters who she's

1023
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 3: mostly put around. It's like someone that she has reason

1024
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 3: to feel a little uncomfortable with.

1025
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:50,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1026
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 2: Also when she I think the first time I saw this,

1027
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:59,560
Speaker 2: when she is bitten by Stack, Stack's the one who

1028
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 2: tries to turn her and then smoke her. Lover has

1029
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 2: to kill her, and he honors her wish of killing

1030
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 2: her before she turns into a vampire. When she is killed,

1031
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 2: my brain immediately went to like, oh, no, like is

1032
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 2: she being fridged? But I think this maybe doesn't really

1033
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:24,400
Speaker 2: count since pretty much every other character in the movie

1034
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 2: dies as well.

1035
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 4: Yes, so it is very thorough in the massacre.

1036
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 3: But.

1037
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 2: Pretty much everyone but Sammy and then the immortal couple

1038
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 2: of Stack and Mary when they show up in nineteen

1039
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 2: ninety two, they're still around. But uh.

1040
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,360
Speaker 4: It does also always bring me a special joy to

1041
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 4: see black women survive cinema. Yeah, and we definitely do

1042
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 4: not get that in this film.

1043
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:50,880
Speaker 2: We don't get that.

1044
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 3: Here, no, which it is really frustrating because if we

1045
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:59,640
Speaker 3: meet to like Annie and Perline are both such strong

1046
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 3: con and not to pick one er fore the other.

1047
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 3: But how Annie doesn't get out of this movie I

1048
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 3: will never understand exactly.

1049
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 4: She's the only person with any sense from the start.

1050
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 2: She has all the knowledge, she knows everything. She has

1051
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 2: the best equipped to survive the movie, right, which again

1052
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 2: the movie contextualizes with her background as a who do practitioner.

1053
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 2: I also feel like this is one of the few

1054
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:31,519
Speaker 2: American movies at least that doesn't paint voodoo or who

1055
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:35,760
Speaker 2: dooo or any like African diasporic religions as some kind

1056
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 2: of like evil sorcery, because that's what most of them do.

1057
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 2: We talked about this a lot on the Princess Frog episode.

1058
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, that the villain, Yeah, like the villain of

1059
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 3: the Princess and the front that. Yeah, there's a whole

1060
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 3: song about it.

1061
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 2: But it seems like there was research that went into

1062
01:08:55,360 --> 01:09:01,680
Speaker 2: this movie about you know, who do practice and healers.

1063
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:07,760
Speaker 2: I'll share a quote from Wumni Musaku in w magazine.

1064
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,920
Speaker 2: She was interviewed and asked about the role.

1065
01:09:11,080 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 4: You promised us a TikTok video.

1066
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:20,280
Speaker 2: Okay, excuse me, I'm working on it. In the meantime,

1067
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:25,080
Speaker 2: she says this quote. That was the key for me

1068
01:09:25,360 --> 01:09:28,599
Speaker 2: with Annie finding her anchor and the source of her power,

1069
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,799
Speaker 2: which is her faith and love. Whodo is a practice

1070
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 2: that I didn't know anything about. So we had a

1071
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 2: Hoodoo consultant and I did a ton of research. Just

1072
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:40,280
Speaker 2: being in New Orleans, I met so many people who

1073
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:43,760
Speaker 2: are either initiated or have family members who are. I

1074
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 2: would go to House of Hodoo. I looked into the

1075
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 2: Voodoo Museum in Voodoo Authentica, I met with witch doctors,

1076
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:54,680
Speaker 2: and I read books about the arisius and their powers.

1077
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 2: Learning that history as a Yoruba woman myself, when I

1078
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 2: knew nothing about it at all, really opened up something

1079
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:04,519
Speaker 2: for me. It's a part of the message of the film.

1080
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:07,840
Speaker 2: Knowing who you're from, being in touch with your ancestry,

1081
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:12,120
Speaker 2: and learning how their purpose is now manifested in you.

1082
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:17,840
Speaker 3: I really appreciate that, like in a movie that is

1083
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 3: going out of its way to discuss religion in spirituality,

1084
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 3: that who do spirituality is separated from the religions that

1085
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 3: are forced upon colonized and oppressed people, because again, I

1086
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:40,639
Speaker 3: think that again in a lesser movie, any spirituality would

1087
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:43,799
Speaker 3: be painted as a very broad brush as all religion

1088
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:49,760
Speaker 3: and spirituality is inherently oppressive when the reality is your

1089
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:54,360
Speaker 3: personal relationship to it, and also where does it come

1090
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:59,600
Speaker 3: from in your lineage? And sinners is careful to delineate

1091
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:04,479
Speaker 3: who do is a spirituality and a practice that was

1092
01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:09,559
Speaker 3: created by enslaved peoples that came from Africa and built

1093
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:14,760
Speaker 3: upon And whereas when we meet the Irish vampires, they're like,

1094
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:17,880
Speaker 3: so there's this thing called Catholicism. We hate it, but

1095
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:23,519
Speaker 3: here it is, yeah, and like the relationship is far

1096
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:27,559
Speaker 3: less personal and all that to say, I mean, there

1097
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 3: is so much going on with Andy's character and I

1098
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:34,680
Speaker 3: just feel like it wasn't fully.

1099
01:11:35,240 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 4: She deserves her own film. There should be a sequel.

1100
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:44,680
Speaker 3: Is there any reason Sammy and Annie couldn't have made it?

1101
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:49,160
Speaker 3: Because I understand that Sammy is not just himself as

1102
01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 3: a character, but he represents black art and black culture

1103
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 3: and personhood and moving forward and all of these really

1104
01:11:57,160 --> 01:12:00,760
Speaker 3: important things that the movie is talking about. But like,

1105
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:04,640
Speaker 3: why not Annie? She should have made it?

1106
01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:08,280
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, yeah, it takes us a while to

1107
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:12,599
Speaker 2: meet her as well, and you know, I know that

1108
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 2: you know, the story has a lot to accomplish, and

1109
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:19,960
Speaker 2: it is focused on the Michael B. Jordan's but I

1110
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 2: do feel like there was room to include her more

1111
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 2: in the story. I mean, I do appreciate that she

1112
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:30,240
Speaker 2: is given. She is the character with all of the

1113
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:35,680
Speaker 2: relevant knowledge on how to survive a vampire attack. And

1114
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:38,559
Speaker 2: I also thought it was interesting that at first she

1115
01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:44,719
Speaker 2: thinks they are haints. She uses the word haint several

1116
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:47,360
Speaker 2: times and I had to look that up because I

1117
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 2: wasn't familiar with what that was, but it's a term

1118
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:55,800
Speaker 2: in the Gula Geechee language, and then I had to

1119
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:58,599
Speaker 2: look up what that is. This movie gave me an

1120
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:01,479
Speaker 2: excuse to learn about a new culture.

1121
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 4: Yep.

1122
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:04,400
Speaker 2: And I appreciate that all because she says hate and

1123
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:05,679
Speaker 2: I was like, what is that?

1124
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:09,680
Speaker 3: Absolutely? I mean, and it's again like we talk a

1125
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:12,519
Speaker 3: lot about like it is not the job of anyone

1126
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 3: movie to do this, that or the other, but it

1127
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 3: is a benefit of a movie like Senators that it

1128
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 3: stands to introduce. Uh.

1129
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:26,560
Speaker 4: It covers a lot of ground.

1130
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:30,439
Speaker 3: Like kind of an absurd amount of ground, so much.

1131
01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:36,759
Speaker 3: I also thought, I mean, another woman who we sort

1132
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:40,040
Speaker 3: of get to know throughout this is Grace, who, while

1133
01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 3: I think she is a very proactive distinct character is

1134
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:48,439
Speaker 3: primarily defined through her relationship as a wife and a mother,

1135
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:55,400
Speaker 3: and correct right where it's like legionally gives an unreal performance.

1136
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:59,200
Speaker 3: And I also think, and this is like possibly my

1137
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:04,360
Speaker 3: own like short sightedness, But I can't think of many

1138
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:10,960
Speaker 3: examples in like mainstream like blockbustering media where I feel like,

1139
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 3: very often Asian American characters don't have regional accents for

1140
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:18,760
Speaker 3: some reason for sure, And this was like one of

1141
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:21,519
Speaker 3: the few examples I could think of in a like

1142
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:26,360
Speaker 3: big blockbuster movie where we have Asian American characters who

1143
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:33,000
Speaker 3: have very clearly regionally distinct accents and a clear relationship

1144
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 3: to their culture of origin. And like, I don't know,

1145
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:37,280
Speaker 3: I thought it was wonderful.

1146
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 4: That's good attention to detail, thank you.

1147
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:46,599
Speaker 3: But like Grace, it's a great performance. I like her character,

1148
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:50,320
Speaker 3: but again, it did feel like it was hanging a

1149
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:54,160
Speaker 3: little aggressively on the wife, like and my wife or

1150
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:58,760
Speaker 3: and my mother ye versus anything else, because it does

1151
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 3: feel like her ultimate question is do I go with

1152
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:06,440
Speaker 3: my husband? And the reason she turns against her husband

1153
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:10,120
Speaker 3: is because of her daughter, and we don't really get

1154
01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 3: to know too much about her outside of that. And

1155
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:17,200
Speaker 3: again it just feels like a missed opportunity to flesh

1156
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:23,519
Speaker 3: out that character more as a person that exists as

1157
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:27,440
Speaker 3: a singular being outside of those roles exactly.

1158
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:32,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and a similar vibe with Herlene as the you know,

1159
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:38,439
Speaker 4: necessary sexual liberator of Sammy or whatever. It just seemed

1160
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 4: very odd and I don't feel like anything else was

1161
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:48,240
Speaker 4: explored with her as a person or character at all.

1162
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:49,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1163
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:49,479
Speaker 2: Right.

1164
01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:51,679
Speaker 4: And on the one hand, because I was thinking about

1165
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:55,240
Speaker 4: this right before we started, I'm like, I'm sure some

1166
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 4: people might justify it as well. You know, it's nineteen three,

1167
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:05,920
Speaker 4: so maybe it's a statement on women's place in society

1168
01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 4: at that time. But I have a very hard time

1169
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:16,719
Speaker 4: going with that in the case of Perlein, specifically as

1170
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:22,519
Speaker 4: a blues singer. So the majority of blues singers, especially

1171
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:27,120
Speaker 4: women blues singers of the era, would have been extremely

1172
01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:33,720
Speaker 4: independent women and by no means defined by their relationship

1173
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:35,040
Speaker 4: to any man.

1174
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:36,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1175
01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 2: And we do learn that she is married, because she

1176
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:43,439
Speaker 2: tells Sammy that when he's like kind of approaching her.

1177
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:46,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it might as well have not have happened.

1178
01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:48,040
Speaker 3: I feel like, as far as I like, I feel

1179
01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:50,920
Speaker 3: like that's to establish her as the Jezebel, but it

1180
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 3: doesn't pay off in any meaningfully way.

1181
01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:56,400
Speaker 2: That's what I mean. And also like, you know, why

1182
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 2: why can't she be one of these like musicians who

1183
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:05,439
Speaker 2: has this of mystical abilities to connect past and present

1184
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:08,920
Speaker 2: and things like that. But I guess only Sammy gets.

1185
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:10,800
Speaker 4: She's very propified.

1186
01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:16,120
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and like and and again it sucks because

1187
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:19,840
Speaker 3: it's like the performance that Jamie Lawson gives, especially like

1188
01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:23,120
Speaker 3: in the musical portion, is unreal. I feels like so

1189
01:17:23,280 --> 01:17:26,599
Speaker 3: many of the things that you would want is there,

1190
01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:30,160
Speaker 3: Like where okay, she's unhappy in her marriage, or like

1191
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:37,600
Speaker 3: she's whatever, Like she receives pleasure as we see she

1192
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 3: goes a woga, she comes so hard, she's like, I

1193
01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:46,080
Speaker 3: have to give a full blown musical performance, and so

1194
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:48,080
Speaker 3: so many of us have felt that way and been

1195
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 3: unable to deliver what she does. And so it's very

1196
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:55,400
Speaker 3: cathartic watching a woman come and be like and I

1197
01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:58,679
Speaker 3: can show you how it feels. It's great, like it's

1198
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:02,639
Speaker 3: it's so great, But we don't have enough for her

1199
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:05,800
Speaker 3: to be a full character, because we can really only

1200
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:08,599
Speaker 3: name two or three things about her, and I feel

1201
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:10,240
Speaker 3: like so much of that comes down to like, it's

1202
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:13,160
Speaker 3: a great performance, but what do we know about her?

1203
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:16,920
Speaker 2: What it comes down to is that this movie is

1204
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:23,160
Speaker 2: more concerned with the Smokestack Twins and the Sami characters,

1205
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:26,280
Speaker 2: and so they're definitely they get most of the screen

1206
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:31,439
Speaker 2: time and the important narrative arcs and all of that.

1207
01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:35,000
Speaker 2: And then that's just part of a larger problem of

1208
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:38,719
Speaker 2: there just not being enough movies that center black women,

1209
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:44,080
Speaker 2: and especially ones that explore the themes that this movie

1210
01:18:44,160 --> 01:18:47,679
Speaker 2: explores as far as like black liberation and what does

1211
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:49,840
Speaker 2: that look like? And black joy and what does that

1212
01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:53,000
Speaker 2: look like? And things like that, and you know, it's

1213
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:55,759
Speaker 2: again we always say it's not any one movie's job

1214
01:18:55,920 --> 01:19:03,240
Speaker 2: to represent everything and explore everything worthing, but in this

1215
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:07,760
Speaker 2: movie it does feel noticeable. And also this kind of

1216
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:11,360
Speaker 2: is a movie about fathers and sons because I mean

1217
01:19:11,479 --> 01:19:14,559
Speaker 2: smoke and talking about their father.

1218
01:19:15,439 --> 01:19:19,080
Speaker 4: And do we even mention Sammy's mom? No?

1219
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:20,000
Speaker 2: Do we meet her?

1220
01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:22,719
Speaker 3: No, we don't even know. We don't know if she's living,

1221
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:24,920
Speaker 3: dead existence.

1222
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:27,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no reference to her at all.

1223
01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:29,639
Speaker 3: Maybe he felt from the sky, we don't know.

1224
01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:32,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, he just came forth from his father's preaching.

1225
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:37,320
Speaker 2: I guess yeah, immaculate conception question Mark.

1226
01:19:37,439 --> 01:19:40,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like there's an extremely controversial statement, but

1227
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:43,760
Speaker 4: I would be willing to do with one less Michael B.

1228
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:46,919
Speaker 4: Jordan in favor of do you have one fully developed

1229
01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:47,799
Speaker 4: female character?

1230
01:19:48,720 --> 01:19:51,640
Speaker 3: I agree? I agree, and I also think, like I

1231
01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:57,479
Speaker 3: love Twin inspired tension, but we are not exploring like

1232
01:19:57,600 --> 01:20:00,560
Speaker 3: what if he had a fra Turtle twin who was

1233
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:05,760
Speaker 3: a woman, Like how would that mix things up? I? Yeah,

1234
01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 3: And this is like sort of goes back to what

1235
01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:13,519
Speaker 3: my irritation with Twin stunt casting is is that it

1236
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:19,160
Speaker 3: is like, well, instead of developing other actors or perhaps women,

1237
01:20:19,439 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 3: because outside of Lindsay Lohan, most of the doubled actors

1238
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:26,760
Speaker 3: are men, they're sort of like, what if we had

1239
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:29,800
Speaker 3: two movie stars instead of one? And this movie is

1240
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:30,519
Speaker 3: not above that?

1241
01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:35,799
Speaker 2: Jamian, you're forgetting about the Vanessa Hudgens Princess Switch movies.

1242
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:38,160
Speaker 4: Forget this right.

1243
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:45,280
Speaker 3: You're right, and I have seen them all. That's embarrassing. Yes, Okay,

1244
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 3: I retract my statement, but I do feel like sometimes

1245
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:51,040
Speaker 3: there is a tendency where it's like it's fun, and

1246
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:54,360
Speaker 3: I often like it, but you know, sometimes it's like, well,

1247
01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:57,320
Speaker 3: what if we could have two movie stars instead of one,

1248
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:01,760
Speaker 3: and movie stars tend to be men in a movie

1249
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:06,479
Speaker 3: that has a clear invested interest in intersectionality, I do

1250
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:11,080
Speaker 3: feel like women receive the short shrift, which again is

1251
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:14,440
Speaker 3: like this movie is doing so much, it cannot do everything.

1252
01:21:14,560 --> 01:21:16,840
Speaker 3: It's not fair to lay at the feet of Mike

1253
01:21:17,320 --> 01:21:20,720
Speaker 3: of not Michael B. Jordan, He's already doing so much

1254
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:26,760
Speaker 3: of Ryan Kugler to do everything. But of every intersection

1255
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:30,080
Speaker 3: presented in this movie, it does feel like women are

1256
01:21:30,240 --> 01:21:36,840
Speaker 3: generally and Black women specifically, don't have the presence and

1257
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:40,559
Speaker 3: the complete narrative arcs that they should have. We get

1258
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:43,840
Speaker 3: the beginning of a lot of interesting arcs and then

1259
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:45,920
Speaker 3: they die.

1260
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:48,200
Speaker 4: Yes, so.

1261
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 3: I don't love that. I did want to talk about

1262
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:54,880
Speaker 3: I know that it's hot and we're going over time,

1263
01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:57,400
Speaker 3: but I did want to just touch on some of

1264
01:21:57,439 --> 01:22:01,880
Speaker 3: the conversation around the release of this movie. Yes, I

1265
01:22:01,920 --> 01:22:05,000
Speaker 3: have stuff on this as well, because there is a

1266
01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:09,240
Speaker 3: bunch to talk about. I think that a lot of

1267
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:15,760
Speaker 3: what I remember seeing and what demonstrates a clear persistent

1268
01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:19,639
Speaker 3: racism in the way that not just movies are promoted

1269
01:22:19,680 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 3: but covered is how I mean Sinners is again, it's

1270
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 3: doing so much because not only is it a major

1271
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:34,639
Speaker 3: blockbuster tent pole written and directed by a black writer director,

1272
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:38,000
Speaker 3: it is also an a ritual story which we are

1273
01:22:38,080 --> 01:22:44,800
Speaker 3: seeing so little of. And by all metrics, it did incredibly.

1274
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:50,080
Speaker 3: This was a writer director who is beloved, who historically

1275
01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:55,759
Speaker 3: has always had majority black casts, and the movie did well.

1276
01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:58,000
Speaker 3: People went out to see it. It broke a number

1277
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:01,880
Speaker 3: of records I mean sort of run down the list

1278
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:05,200
Speaker 3: of but like specifically in recent history for original stories,

1279
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:09,680
Speaker 3: because we've been really plagued by IP stories for a

1280
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:13,880
Speaker 3: long long time and this felt like to me at

1281
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:17,640
Speaker 3: least that like Ryan Coogler had done his time in

1282
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:21,679
Speaker 3: the like IP world, and here is this original story

1283
01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 3: that he's writing and directing, and it was doing incredibly.

1284
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:27,200
Speaker 3: It got a ton of word of mouth marketing. It

1285
01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:31,360
Speaker 3: made three hundred and sixty six million dollars at the

1286
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:35,280
Speaker 3: global box office. It was incredible. But what we saw

1287
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:39,040
Speaker 3: in terms of how it was covered was a lot

1288
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:44,360
Speaker 3: of like dubiousness of like will Sinners be profitable at

1289
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:47,080
Speaker 3: the box office in ways that you just like would

1290
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:51,839
Speaker 3: not see four blockbuster ten polls written directed and starring

1291
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:55,240
Speaker 3: white actors, directors, writers.

1292
01:23:55,439 --> 01:23:58,439
Speaker 4: I mean, it's tradition with blacks andem at this point.

1293
01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:01,880
Speaker 3: True, true, I was just like asking the most bad

1294
01:24:01,920 --> 01:24:05,599
Speaker 3: faith questions possible to undercut someone's success.

1295
01:24:05,960 --> 01:24:09,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, phenomenal black directors and writers are always treated like

1296
01:24:09,800 --> 01:24:12,920
Speaker 4: toddlers trying to throw a ball for the first time.

1297
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:18,840
Speaker 2: The New York Times and Fuck Them was very guilty

1298
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:23,120
Speaker 2: of this variety a few others. But it's also not

1299
01:24:23,160 --> 01:24:26,400
Speaker 2: surprising that this movie was so popular because ample money

1300
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:30,280
Speaker 2: was spent on marketing to promote this movie, which often

1301
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:34,360
Speaker 2: does not happen with movies by and about marginalized people,

1302
01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:37,800
Speaker 2: because Hollywood will assume that no one wants to see

1303
01:24:37,800 --> 01:24:41,320
Speaker 2: that movie, so they don't promote it enough. And because

1304
01:24:41,360 --> 01:24:44,479
Speaker 2: it wasn't well promoted, no one knows about it, and

1305
01:24:44,520 --> 01:24:47,960
Speaker 2: that's why no one saw the movie. So it becomes

1306
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:52,439
Speaker 2: this like self fulfilling prophecy that has these sinister reasons

1307
01:24:52,479 --> 01:24:55,600
Speaker 2: behind it. But this movie was well promoted and a

1308
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:56,400
Speaker 2: lot of people saw it.

1309
01:24:56,479 --> 01:24:59,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, even when it was well promoted, they're like, well,

1310
01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:02,840
Speaker 3: should we have on that, and you're like, yeah, everyone

1311
01:25:02,960 --> 01:25:03,439
Speaker 3: loved it.

1312
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:05,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1313
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:09,919
Speaker 2: And then also worth noting is the deal Ryan Kugler

1314
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:13,599
Speaker 2: was able to get for this movie, which was first

1315
01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:20,000
Speaker 2: dollar gross, which means that he receives a percentage of

1316
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:25,160
Speaker 2: gross box office revenue starting from like day one of

1317
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:27,880
Speaker 2: the movie's release. So typically it would be something like

1318
01:25:28,240 --> 01:25:31,760
Speaker 2: the studio waits until the film starts to turn a

1319
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:34,880
Speaker 2: profit and like make its budget back. But in this case,

1320
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:39,160
Speaker 2: he was making money off the movie from like minute one,

1321
01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:40,120
Speaker 2: and that's.

1322
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:45,320
Speaker 3: Just like powerful director shit too, where it's like and again,

1323
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:49,000
Speaker 3: it's like not something that we it's frustrating because it's

1324
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:53,519
Speaker 3: not something that we frequently see with black directors that

1325
01:25:54,040 --> 01:25:57,679
Speaker 3: Ryan Cougler did have and was turned against him because

1326
01:25:57,720 --> 01:26:01,240
Speaker 3: there's a number of examples of like, well, part of

1327
01:26:01,280 --> 01:26:04,439
Speaker 3: the reasons that Sinners might not turn a profit at

1328
01:26:04,439 --> 01:26:07,720
Speaker 3: the box office is because the writer director has this

1329
01:26:07,880 --> 01:26:10,200
Speaker 3: kind of deal, and so it's just like at every

1330
01:26:10,240 --> 01:26:15,519
Speaker 3: single step he's being undercut, even when he is getting

1331
01:26:15,520 --> 01:26:19,439
Speaker 3: the kind of deal that he objectively deserves. It's being

1332
01:26:19,840 --> 01:26:24,320
Speaker 3: like painted as a craven selfishness when no one would

1333
01:26:24,360 --> 01:26:29,919
Speaker 3: say that shit to Scoresese or whoever else any white director.

1334
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:34,400
Speaker 3: But in spite of all of that, the movie did

1335
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:37,920
Speaker 3: terrifically at the box office. It broke all of these

1336
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:43,120
Speaker 3: records for original stories during a time that desperately needs

1337
01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:47,600
Speaker 3: original stories doing well at the box office, there was

1338
01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:52,840
Speaker 3: a fair amount of fan backlash to the way these

1339
01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:55,200
Speaker 3: stories were being covered. There were also a number of

1340
01:26:55,240 --> 01:27:00,600
Speaker 3: directors who spoke out in support of Ryan and like,

1341
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:02,839
Speaker 3: why the fuck are we talking about this this way,

1342
01:27:03,160 --> 01:27:08,680
Speaker 3: including weirdly, Ben Stiller. I'm like, so, Ben, there's us

1343
01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:11,759
Speaker 3: saying Ben Stiller in the Center's episode for some reason.

1344
01:27:13,360 --> 01:27:16,920
Speaker 3: And I guess I'm good for that. But I am

1345
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:19,760
Speaker 3: at very least glad that that conversation was being like

1346
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:23,799
Speaker 3: noticed and had, because it was really a great jous Yes.

1347
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:28,080
Speaker 2: For sure, to go back really quick to the deal

1348
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:32,360
Speaker 2: that Ryan Coogler made with the studio. In addition to

1349
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:35,680
Speaker 2: the first dollar gross, he also got final cut privileges,

1350
01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:41,400
Speaker 2: which is rare, especially for a black director, and then

1351
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:45,080
Speaker 2: he also got ownership of the copyright of the film

1352
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:48,599
Speaker 2: twenty five years after its released, so basically he will

1353
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:52,519
Speaker 2: own the rights to this movie again impressed after twenty

1354
01:27:52,560 --> 01:27:55,680
Speaker 2: five years, which is also quite rare, And I just

1355
01:27:55,800 --> 01:28:00,760
Speaker 2: I hope this sets a precedent for other marginalized filmmakers

1356
01:28:01,479 --> 01:28:04,280
Speaker 2: because the directors who do tend to get this deal

1357
01:28:05,240 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 2: are cis white men, and.

1358
01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:11,600
Speaker 3: Then just chatting at a few other people in the

1359
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:15,520
Speaker 3: production where while I do like this movie is ultimately

1360
01:28:16,080 --> 01:28:19,640
Speaker 3: centered on and prioritizing men, we do have. We have

1361
01:28:20,560 --> 01:28:25,719
Speaker 3: the producers. We have Zinzy Kugler, Ryan Kugler's production partner

1362
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:30,160
Speaker 3: and spouse they famously saw Bring It On Together in Oakland.

1363
01:28:31,080 --> 01:28:37,000
Speaker 3: We also have a cinematographer, Autumn Gerald Archipa, who is

1364
01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:42,200
Speaker 3: also from California, has been working for some time, mostly

1365
01:28:42,280 --> 01:28:46,640
Speaker 3: with Ryan Coogler and Gia Coppola. I don't know, but

1366
01:28:47,439 --> 01:28:51,479
Speaker 3: she is historically the first black woman to ever direct

1367
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:55,640
Speaker 3: a movie for Imax or to be a director of

1368
01:28:55,640 --> 01:29:00,479
Speaker 3: photography for Imax, which is both amazing and while that

1369
01:29:00,560 --> 01:29:04,760
Speaker 3: it took that long. And then also we have I

1370
01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:08,240
Speaker 3: just wanted to again shout out the costumer who is

1371
01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:12,200
Speaker 3: just like a famous figure already, but Ruth E. Carter,

1372
01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:16,759
Speaker 3: who has won two Oscars with Ryan Cougler. I believe

1373
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:20,000
Speaker 3: she's the first black woman to win for Best Costume Design.

1374
01:29:20,080 --> 01:29:24,920
Speaker 3: But she's also a frequent collaborator with Spike Lee and

1375
01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:29,479
Speaker 3: Steven Spielberg. Movies we've covered that include her work Our

1376
01:29:29,520 --> 01:29:35,080
Speaker 3: Love in Basketball. She also has done do the right thing.

1377
01:29:35,240 --> 01:29:38,880
Speaker 3: What's love got to do with it? Selma Dolomite is

1378
01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:43,840
Speaker 3: my name coming to America like she's a legend. So well,

1379
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:48,040
Speaker 3: I do think that this is ultimately a joint that

1380
01:29:48,200 --> 01:29:52,240
Speaker 3: focuses on men. There is at least a historical priority

1381
01:29:52,360 --> 01:29:56,400
Speaker 3: of Ryan Cougler behind the scenes to include women at

1382
01:29:56,400 --> 01:29:57,320
Speaker 3: the highest levels.

1383
01:29:57,880 --> 01:29:58,280
Speaker 2: For sure.

1384
01:29:58,400 --> 01:30:05,240
Speaker 4: Definitely chose very powerful women. And again, even in our

1385
01:30:05,439 --> 01:30:11,080
Speaker 4: critique of their overarching character development, the fact that they've

1386
01:30:11,479 --> 01:30:15,679
Speaker 4: still had so much power in their presence and time

1387
01:30:15,880 --> 01:30:18,880
Speaker 4: on screen regardless says a lot.

1388
01:30:19,280 --> 01:30:19,920
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

1389
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:23,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty much all I had. Does anyone want

1390
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:26,479
Speaker 2: to have anything else they'd like to talk about?

1391
01:30:27,160 --> 01:30:28,519
Speaker 3: That's that's all I add.

1392
01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:30,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we covered quite a bit.

1393
01:30:30,560 --> 01:30:33,280
Speaker 3: It's true, we're all drenched in sweat, and I feel

1394
01:30:33,320 --> 01:30:37,280
Speaker 3: like we've fully had the discourse. Yeah, does this movie

1395
01:30:37,520 --> 01:30:40,760
Speaker 3: pass the backdel test? I think maybe on a technicality

1396
01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:44,880
Speaker 3: once or twice, But we really don't have a lot

1397
01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:51,439
Speaker 3: of women in conversation about not either various Michael B.

1398
01:30:51,600 --> 01:30:57,840
Speaker 3: Jordan's or vampires that are men. I think in general, Yeah.

1399
01:30:57,560 --> 01:30:59,679
Speaker 2: It's a lot of men talking to each other.

1400
01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:02,760
Speaker 4: About man business, Yes, about.

1401
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:04,120
Speaker 3: About and stuff.

1402
01:31:04,439 --> 01:31:07,839
Speaker 2: It is very little women interacting with each other.

1403
01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:08,679
Speaker 3: Little women.

1404
01:31:10,479 --> 01:31:13,800
Speaker 2: Yes, honestly, this is another movie where I forgot to

1405
01:31:13,880 --> 01:31:17,040
Speaker 2: pay attention to Bechdel test passing.

1406
01:31:17,360 --> 01:31:20,920
Speaker 3: I think that it technically does, but like, I don't know,

1407
01:31:21,000 --> 01:31:24,639
Speaker 3: like I'm not going to be like Sinners. I can't

1408
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:28,320
Speaker 3: believe like this movie is doing so so much. But

1409
01:31:29,080 --> 01:31:33,160
Speaker 3: women do kind of fall into the rare view in

1410
01:31:33,240 --> 01:31:37,880
Speaker 3: terms of like their relationships with like their characters and

1411
01:31:37,920 --> 01:31:41,120
Speaker 3: their relationships with each other does feel like a big

1412
01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:43,320
Speaker 3: missed opportunity, which brings.

1413
01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:47,360
Speaker 2: Us to the Bechdel cast nipple scale, in which we

1414
01:31:47,479 --> 01:31:51,719
Speaker 2: rated the movie zero to five nipples, examining it through

1415
01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:57,519
Speaker 2: an intersectional feminist lens. I'll go with four again. The

1416
01:31:57,520 --> 01:32:00,120
Speaker 2: movie left some things to be desired when it comes

1417
01:31:59,960 --> 01:32:04,280
Speaker 2: to the black women characters, but as we've discussed, this

1418
01:32:04,560 --> 01:32:09,040
Speaker 2: film accomplishes a lot of great things. And I particularly

1419
01:32:09,120 --> 01:32:14,120
Speaker 2: love vampire movies, horror movies, genre movies in general that

1420
01:32:14,280 --> 01:32:19,280
Speaker 2: center marginalize people and communities, because so much Hollywood genre

1421
01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:24,800
Speaker 2: film focuses on cis white men, so it's very refreshing

1422
01:32:24,920 --> 01:32:30,400
Speaker 2: to not see that. So four nipples and I'm giving

1423
01:32:30,439 --> 01:32:35,120
Speaker 2: them to any Prolene Grace, and then one to the

1424
01:32:35,240 --> 01:32:39,240
Speaker 2: music which slaps so fucking hard in this movie.

1425
01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:42,400
Speaker 3: I'm going to give this movie four nipples as well.

1426
01:32:42,960 --> 01:32:46,320
Speaker 3: And I do think that ultimately the areas where I

1427
01:32:46,360 --> 01:32:51,000
Speaker 3: really wish we had seen more characterization were with the

1428
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:56,080
Speaker 3: women characters writ large, specifically black women characters, and the

1429
01:32:56,200 --> 01:33:00,120
Speaker 3: chalk talk characters also felt like a big missed opportunity.

1430
01:33:00,920 --> 01:33:03,120
Speaker 3: One movie can't do anything, but it felt a little

1431
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:08,120
Speaker 3: frustrated to have these characters there and very knowingly included

1432
01:33:08,680 --> 01:33:11,320
Speaker 3: in this very specific moment in time, and then not

1433
01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:13,360
Speaker 3: built out upon.

1434
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:16,960
Speaker 4: More with so much potential, Yes to do.

1435
01:33:17,040 --> 01:33:20,439
Speaker 3: So absolutely and again just like this movie is touching

1436
01:33:20,439 --> 01:33:24,760
Speaker 3: on so much that it couldn't possibly resolve everything. Ultimately,

1437
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:31,559
Speaker 3: I wanted more Annie, yeah, and I wanted a chalk

1438
01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:35,160
Speaker 3: talk character we got to know so but but nonetheless,

1439
01:33:35,160 --> 01:33:37,400
Speaker 3: this movie is doing so much more than most dows

1440
01:33:37,600 --> 01:33:42,160
Speaker 3: and is also wildly entertaining. Is a genre movie did

1441
01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:47,720
Speaker 3: incredibly four nipples. I'm going to give two to Annie,

1442
01:33:47,960 --> 01:33:50,760
Speaker 3: I'm going to give one to Grace, and I'm going

1443
01:33:50,800 --> 01:33:56,759
Speaker 3: to give one to cinematographer Autumn Duould Archapa Dollia.

1444
01:33:56,800 --> 01:33:57,280
Speaker 2: How about you?

1445
01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:02,519
Speaker 4: So I was going to go Withles, but given the

1446
01:34:02,840 --> 01:34:07,479
Speaker 4: additional details of the production staff. I think that does

1447
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:12,519
Speaker 4: earn the film an extra nipple, an extra half nipples.

1448
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:15,320
Speaker 4: So I'm going with four and a half nipples. And

1449
01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:20,880
Speaker 4: I know, you know, the production staff isn't necessarily definitive

1450
01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:24,840
Speaker 4: of the story itself or how it was told, but

1451
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:30,200
Speaker 4: I think overall there was a lot of attention to

1452
01:34:30,520 --> 01:34:36,080
Speaker 4: intersections in a very complex and multi layered way. So

1453
01:34:36,720 --> 01:34:41,120
Speaker 4: I give the whole cast and crew collectively they can

1454
01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:43,519
Speaker 4: share four and a half nipples.

1455
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:47,519
Speaker 2: Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us again for

1456
01:34:47,640 --> 01:34:48,480
Speaker 2: this discussion.

1457
01:34:48,920 --> 01:34:50,800
Speaker 4: Absolutely, thank you so much for having me.

1458
01:34:51,040 --> 01:34:52,599
Speaker 3: We were so excited to have you back.

1459
01:34:52,560 --> 01:34:57,800
Speaker 4: And not discussing this film with like some Super Mayo person.

1460
01:34:58,040 --> 01:35:00,519
Speaker 3: Which which was our intent. We want to to bring

1461
01:35:00,600 --> 01:35:04,799
Speaker 3: on a British white guy, and then we're like, wait.

1462
01:35:04,600 --> 01:35:07,240
Speaker 4: A second, that might be inappropriate.

1463
01:35:09,560 --> 01:35:12,200
Speaker 3: Dulia, Thank you so much for joining us again. Please

1464
01:35:12,200 --> 01:35:15,960
Speaker 3: come back anytime, bring us any movie lay pleasure. And

1465
01:35:16,080 --> 01:35:19,360
Speaker 3: where can we follow you and your work online?

1466
01:35:19,680 --> 01:35:23,400
Speaker 4: Yes, so for comedy, which is what I want people

1467
01:35:23,400 --> 01:35:26,720
Speaker 4: to know me for. Please follow me on Instagram at

1468
01:35:26,840 --> 01:35:31,200
Speaker 4: mix Dahlia bell. I also shit post on Blue Sky

1469
01:35:31,320 --> 01:35:36,719
Speaker 4: from time to time. I know, and if you want

1470
01:35:36,760 --> 01:35:41,519
Speaker 4: to get way too much insight into my actual brain.

1471
01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:45,160
Speaker 4: You can make the mistake of following me on threads.

1472
01:35:45,720 --> 01:35:49,240
Speaker 4: All of that is at Mixed Dahlia Bell because I'm

1473
01:35:49,360 --> 01:35:53,400
Speaker 4: narcissistic and my manager insists that I have a strong brand.

1474
01:35:53,520 --> 01:36:00,280
Speaker 3: In that order same you can follow us also land

1475
01:36:00,400 --> 01:36:04,639
Speaker 3: Instagram at Bechdel Cast. You can also contribute to the show.

1476
01:36:04,800 --> 01:36:09,080
Speaker 3: We have our Patreon aka Matreon, where for five dollars

1477
01:36:09,120 --> 01:36:13,080
Speaker 3: a month you can sign up support the show and

1478
01:36:13,200 --> 01:36:17,000
Speaker 3: listen to two bonus episodes a month on a theme

1479
01:36:17,240 --> 01:36:21,720
Speaker 3: of our choice and sometimes yours, and get access to

1480
01:36:22,080 --> 01:36:26,800
Speaker 3: over I think nearly two hundred at this point bonus episodes.

1481
01:36:26,920 --> 01:36:29,920
Speaker 3: So if you're like, if you've run out of episodes

1482
01:36:30,000 --> 01:36:32,920
Speaker 3: on the main feed, there's a place, There is a community,

1483
01:36:33,040 --> 01:36:36,720
Speaker 3: there is a whole expanded universe, so join us over

1484
01:36:36,760 --> 01:36:37,160
Speaker 3: there too.

1485
01:36:38,520 --> 01:36:45,519
Speaker 2: And with that, should we get out our guitars and.

1486
01:36:45,479 --> 01:36:48,360
Speaker 3: Oh yes, oh wait, I thought to say, like deis

1487
01:36:48,439 --> 01:36:52,519
Speaker 3: ex daddy guitar. With that, deis because we're told at

1488
01:36:52,520 --> 01:36:56,559
Speaker 3: the beginning, Okay, okay, don't that didn't resonate I? Okay,

1489
01:36:56,560 --> 01:36:59,320
Speaker 3: we're told at the beginning it is a famous musician's guitar.

1490
01:36:59,800 --> 01:37:02,479
Speaker 3: And then at the end, Michael V. Jordan is like, actually,

1491
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:07,519
Speaker 3: that's my daddy's guitar. Oh, and it's they say daddy guitar, they.

1492
01:37:07,360 --> 01:37:13,080
Speaker 2: Say, it's Charlie Patton's guitar. Yes, And then Smoke is like, no, Sammy,

1493
01:37:13,160 --> 01:37:13,960
Speaker 2: that was a lie.

1494
01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:17,240
Speaker 3: It's our follow Let's just end the episode. Let's end

1495
01:37:17,280 --> 01:37:18,519
Speaker 3: the episode, Dad, I was.

1496
01:37:18,840 --> 01:37:19,880
Speaker 2: I loved it, Jamie, I loved it.

1497
01:37:20,320 --> 01:37:20,800
Speaker 3: It's fine.

1498
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:23,280
Speaker 4: I love you both. I love you both so much.

1499
01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:26,360
Speaker 3: We love you, We love you so much. Okay, bye,

1500
01:37:26,400 --> 01:37:33,600
Speaker 3: bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,

1501
01:37:33,760 --> 01:37:36,680
Speaker 3: hosted and produced by Me, Jamie Loftus.

1502
01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:39,960
Speaker 2: And Me Caitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by

1503
01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:41,519
Speaker 2: Sophie Lichtermann.

1504
01:37:41,280 --> 01:37:43,960
Speaker 3: And edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever heard of Them?

1505
01:37:44,479 --> 01:37:47,920
Speaker 2: That's me and our logo and merch and all of

1506
01:37:47,960 --> 01:37:51,679
Speaker 2: our artwork, in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus, Ever

1507
01:37:51,720 --> 01:37:52,160
Speaker 2: heard of her?

1508
01:37:52,360 --> 01:37:55,360
Speaker 3: Oh my God? And our theme song, by the way,

1509
01:37:55,479 --> 01:37:56,439
Speaker 3: was composed by Mike.

1510
01:37:56,400 --> 01:38:00,200
Speaker 2: Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Vosskrasinski.

1511
01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:04,280
Speaker 3: And especial thanks to the one and only Aristotle Ascevedo.

1512
01:38:04,800 --> 01:38:08,559
Speaker 2: For more information about the podcast, Please visit Linktree Slash

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Speaker 2: Spectelcast