1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple Coarckley and Android 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 2: We connected dots as always between Washington and Wall Street. 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us on the Monday edition. 8 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: It is quite a connection today as we consider the 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: future of the Federal Reserve Chair, and ahead of our 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 2: conversation with Congresswoman Debbie Dingle, we want to bring you 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 2: up to date on what we know here with the 12 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 2: Department of Justice, as we've been reporting delivering subpoenas to 13 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 2: j Powell threatening a criminal indictment over his testimony on 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 2: Capitol Hill about the building renovations that President Trump put 15 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 2: a hard hat on to go visit the Chair to 16 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 2: talk about a couple of months ago, generating the headline 17 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: on the terminal fed Serve DOJ subpenis Powell vows to 18 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 2: stand firm. Indeed, the Chair, in an extraordinary move, jumped 19 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 2: in front of a camera yesterday to put up a 20 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 2: video rebuttal. 21 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 3: Here's what he said. No one, certainly not. The chair 22 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 3: of the Federal Reserve is above the law. But this 23 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 3: unprecedented action should be seen in the broader context of 24 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 3: the administration's threats and ongoing pressure. The threat of criminal 25 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 3: charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest 26 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 3: rates based on our best assessment of what will serve 27 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 3: the public, rather than following the preferences of the President. 28 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: And thus, he says being punished for in fact doing 29 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 2: his job. He did yes invoke the President, who says 30 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: he did not know this was coming. He was surprised 31 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 2: by the news and learned about it, just like you did. 32 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 2: That's where we start with Tyler Kendall. We want to 33 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: get an update from the White House before we talked 34 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: to the Congresswoman Bloomberg Washington correspondent Tyler, the President has 35 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 2: not spoken publicly about this, has he No, not yet. 36 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 4: Though Joe, as you mentioned, he did tell NBC News 37 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 4: in an interview over night that he did not have 38 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 4: knowledge of this investigation. It is worth pointing out that 39 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 4: it's our understanding that the investigation was greenlight by the 40 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 4: US Attorney General for the District of Columbia, Janine Piro, 41 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 4: A longtime ally of this White House, and people familiar 42 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 4: with the matter tell us here at Bloomberg News that 43 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 4: FHFA Director Bill Poulty was a driving force and getting 44 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 4: the Department of Justice to issue these subpoenas. Now, he 45 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 4: did dispute that reporting and denied knowledge of the investigation 46 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 4: in an interview with Bloomberg Television earlier today, but we 47 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 4: do know that he was on Air Force one with 48 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 4: President Trump over the weekend. There's a lot of different 49 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 4: threads that we can pull on here, but if we 50 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 4: focus on the Washington reaction, Joe, we are hearing from 51 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 4: more and more lawmakers as the day goes by. Of course, 52 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 4: last night, in a stunning statement, Senator Tom Tillis, a 53 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 4: retiring Republican from North Carolina, says that he will block 54 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 4: any President Trump's Federal Reserve nominees until the legal matter 55 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 4: is ree'il and he really could. He sits on the 56 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 4: Senate Banking Committee, where there is a thirteen eleven majority 57 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 4: for Republicans, so he could stall a nomination from going 58 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 4: to the full floor. We mentioned this earlier on the program, 59 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 4: but it does appear that Powell is talking with the 60 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 4: senators in real time Senator Lisa Murkowski, a Republican from Alaska, 61 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 4: confirmed she spoke with him earlier this morning, and she's 62 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 4: now suggesting that Congress could launch its own investigation into 63 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 4: the Department of Justice's investigation. And Joe, I'll leave you 64 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 4: with this one. The House Financial Services Chair French Hill 65 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 4: saying that this is an unnecessary distraction, in his words, 66 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 4: appearing to take the side of the Fed chair at 67 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 4: this point. We're going to have to see how this 68 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 4: goes from here, because, as you all know, there is 69 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 4: a very high legal bar to remove a Federal Reserve 70 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 4: official from their position, a protection that was bolstered by 71 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 4: the Supreme Court. 72 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 5: Just last year. 73 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking at the guidance for today the schedule, Tyler. 74 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: He does have multiple events if they wanted to open 75 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: them to press. I spoke as we could hear from 76 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,839 Speaker 2: him today, So let us know what you learned so far. 77 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: There's nothing public on the schedule. 78 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 4: Right, No, nothing yet. He's missing. He's meeting with an archbishop. 79 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 4: He also has something on the schedule known as signing 80 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 4: time or waiting to see how that's going to evolve. 81 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 4: So yes, he could open up some of these events 82 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 4: as we get some more details, but as of now, 83 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 4: we haven't heard from him so far yet today, Joe. 84 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 4: But we have to keep in mind it appears that 85 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 4: the attention is really shifting towards Congress, what these lawmakers 86 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 4: could potentially do against this investigation, and the fact that 87 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 4: this investigation rests on testimony that Powell gave to Congress 88 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 4: and allegations that he misled lawmakers, of course, an accusation 89 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 4: that Powell himself denies. 90 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 6: Yeah, Tyler, thank you so much. 91 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 2: Bloomberg's Tyler Kendall on the North Lawn at the White House. Yes, 92 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: signing time that's set for three point thirty PM. 93 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 6: Sounds like that might be an opportunity. 94 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 2: We promised Congresswoman Dingle would join us, and she's with 95 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 2: us now live from Capitol Hill, the Democrat representing Michigan's 96 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 2: sixth district, Chair of the House Democratic Policy and Communications Committee. 97 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 6: It's great to see you. Congresswoman. 98 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 2: Thank you for standing by for us as we set 99 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 2: things up this hour. It's great to have you back 100 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: on Bloomberg TV and radio. Is this a story of 101 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: fed independence or retribution or both both? 102 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 7: Ti, Joe, It's good to be with you. I obviously 103 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 7: don't have all of the details. I'm probably learning things 104 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 7: from you and from other people. 105 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 8: But I deeply. 106 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 7: Believe in the independence of the Federal Reserve, the independence 107 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 7: of the chair and we know that the President is 108 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 7: someone who believes in retribution. So I suspect the story 109 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 7: is both. And I am committed to a system of 110 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 7: checks and balances that our forefathers established when they wrote 111 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 7: the Constitution. And what we're hearing is not something that 112 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 7: should make anybody in America feel good. We need an 113 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 7: independent Federal Reserve to protect our economy. 114 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: Well, it seems that you're on the same page as 115 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: French Held and even Tom Tillis next door in the Senate. 116 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: Do you take heart in the Chairman of Financial Services 117 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: calling this an unnecessary distraction? He's obviously not in the 118 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: President's corner on this. Did Donald Trump find the line 119 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: in the Republican lighthouse? 120 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 7: Well, I think you've been seeing cracks over the last 121 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 7: couple of weeks in both a healthcare build that happened 122 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 7: in the House last week and in the War Powers Act. 123 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 7: I think people are home, they are hearing from people 124 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 7: that they are unhappy, that they are scared. I mean, 125 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 7: there are a lot of different issues here on healthcare, 126 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 7: millions of Americans have lost their health insurance and can't 127 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 7: afford it, and they're speaking up to whoever their senator 128 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,679 Speaker 7: or their congressman is. I think a lot of people 129 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 7: are not only worried about what happened in Venezuela, but 130 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 7: when you talk about invading Greenland, or bombing Mexico or 131 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 7: going into Cuba, we've this man. President Trump campaigned and 132 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 7: ending wars, not on starting wars. When I'm home, people's 133 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 7: heads are spinning. There's so many issues that they care about, 134 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 7: and I don't care if you're a Republican or a Democrat. 135 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 7: A lot of Americans have questions in our worry. 136 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: Well, I'd love to hear more about the drive to 137 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: address healthcare premiums. Congresswoman, we were on Capitol Hill last 138 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: week on Thursday evening when I believe it was seventeen 139 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: Republicans crossed the aisle to vote for the discharge petition 140 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: to revive enhanced Obamacare subsidies that expired at the end 141 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 2: of last year. It's on the Senate now, and it 142 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: looks like there is a bill, the Bernie Moreno Bill, 143 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: is coming together in a way that might bring Republicans 144 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: and Democrats together. If that passes, would that then lead 145 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 2: to a conference committee? How does this become a piece 146 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: of legislation that both chambers can address? 147 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 7: So it obviously is on the Senate next. I met 148 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 7: with those the Republican and Democratic senators last week, had 149 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 7: very candid discussions. We understand that there has been agreement 150 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 7: that there would be a two year extension in the 151 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 7: healthcare text credits. There are a number of other issues 152 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 7: that are being worked on. We're going to have to 153 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 7: see what the text of that bill is. But you know, 154 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 7: I'm in this because come I have the University of 155 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 7: Michigan Hospital. I have so many people that I've met 156 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 7: and talked with over the last few months. The human 157 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 7: stories that are there. People are crying, people are scared. 158 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 7: People really are living in a world that they can't 159 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 7: afford insurance. They are looking at the choice between food 160 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 7: on their table and whether they can get health insurance. I, 161 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 7: for one, am somebody that believes that you know, we 162 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 7: in America has spent twice as much as any other 163 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 7: industrialized nation in the world world and have worse health outcomes. 164 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 7: If you're sick, you should be able to go to 165 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 7: the doctor when you need to go to the doctor 166 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 7: and get the medicine you need. 167 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 8: How we work that out. 168 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 7: I'm willing to work with everybody and anybody, but our 169 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 7: healthcare system is broken right now, and I know they're 170 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 7: members on both sides that want to work together on it, 171 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 7: and I don't want to wait till November. We need 172 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 7: to be doing it now. 173 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 2: Looks like that might be the case of Bernie Moreno 174 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 2: says he intends to get thirty five Republican votes for 175 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 2: an eventual bill. Congresswoman, that would be very convincing. The 176 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 2: President would have to sign that. 177 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 6: Now. 178 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 7: I think that the healthcare I think that the President 179 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 7: understands that this is a major issue for him. Was 180 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 7: not there, but I had reports that occurred that were 181 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 7: reported from the Republican retreat last week, and my understanding 182 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 7: is the President told them to be flexible. Anybody who's 183 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 7: out there, anybody who doesn't hide from their constituents, knows 184 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 7: there is a problem with the healthcare system in America 185 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 7: right now. 186 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 6: Well, I'll tell you what. There's also the matter of 187 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 6: funding the government. 188 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 2: Congresswoman, and I don't know if you see a connection 189 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 2: between these two. 190 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 6: If there needs to be a deal on healthcare. 191 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: But I get the sense in every conversation we have 192 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 2: with lawmakers that there's really no appetite for a shutdown 193 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 2: save a few outliers. That doesn't eliminate the idea, though, 194 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: of sleepwalking into a shutdown. And based on what we're 195 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: seeing in Minneapolis now the administration doubling down with Ice 196 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 2: agents following the fatal shooting that took place last week, 197 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: there is a new concern that funding for Homeland, for instance, 198 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 2: might be bogged down in debate over what took place 199 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: involving Ice and similar deployments around the country, and that 200 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 2: we slide into a shutdown. 201 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 6: Where's your head on this today? 202 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 7: So I would like to say that you're probably accurate 203 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 7: and what you're reporting, but want to put that in 204 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 7: further context. There have been many deep discussions about how 205 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 7: we keep the government running. Voted on appropriation bills last 206 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 7: week in the House, and we will be voting on other. 207 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 8: Bills this week. So they are. 208 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 7: Reaching agreement that Republicans are backing off in some of 209 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 7: the deep cuts that they wanted. We are finding consensus. 210 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 7: So I think most appropriation bills are likely to get 211 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 7: passed by January thirtieth, but that I would take home 212 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 7: landsecurity and ice as a separate issue. I think people 213 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 7: are looking for answers about what happened in Minneapolis. When 214 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 7: you have a senseless loss of life, you become concerned 215 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 7: what's happening on the training When the last words you 216 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 7: hear a woman say is it's okay, I'm not mad 217 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 7: at you, and she's dead thirty seconds to a minute later. 218 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 7: That bothers a lot of people. So I think a 219 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 7: lot of questions are being asked. I don't know what's 220 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 7: going to happen. I think all other bills will get past. 221 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 7: If I had to make a prediction, there isn't the appetite. 222 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 7: But I think it is legitimate for questions to be asked. 223 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 7: And we'll have to see how this all plays off. 224 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 7: But those questions cannot not be asked. 225 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 2: What do you make of You've been in this business, 226 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: sent around this business for a minute, Congresswoman, This roar 227 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 2: shock test that we're seeing now, not only the rush 228 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 2: to judgment, but the predictability based on people's political affiliations 229 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: on what they're concluding from these videos. 230 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 6: How dangerous is this? 231 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 7: It's dangerous, you know, I want to say that. Tom Holman, 232 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 7: who is a seasoned I probably don't agree with him 233 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 7: on many of the things he has said. The first 234 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 7: thing he said is we need a transparent and deep investigation. 235 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 7: He didn't rush to clear anybody, He didn't rush to 236 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 7: call someone a domestic terrorist. We need the facts, and 237 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 7: we have got to start getting back to facts. 238 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 8: We have to. 239 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 7: And we need that transparency. You know, I want to 240 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 7: everybody wants to be safe, okay, And the immigration discussion 241 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 7: is a separate discussion, but it isn't. I mean, being 242 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 7: safe also depends upon public trust and those that have 243 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,479 Speaker 7: the responsibility to keep you safe. So it's not contrary 244 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 7: to say thank you to those that are keeping us safe, 245 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 7: but ask questions when someone has been sensless. Well, senseless 246 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 7: is a judgmental issue, but when someone's been shot and killed, 247 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 7: you need to ask questions. And people saw those videos, 248 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 7: and I quite frankly had wished that the Secretary of 249 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 7: Homeland Security hadn't rushed out there and called this woman 250 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 7: a domestic charism. She didn't have any more facts than 251 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 7: I had, Like jumping and not getting not getting the 252 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 7: facts are deeply, deeply disturbed, and there have been a 253 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 7: lot of people that have analyzed the tapes and raised 254 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 7: a lot of fear in questions. 255 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 2: It's all amplified by social media, and you really do 256 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 2: worry about this trend accelerating it that the rush to 257 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: judgment seems to get faster each time. Congresswoman, I need 258 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 2: to ask you about the President's trip to Michigan tomorrow. 259 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: He's bringing the affordability message back on the road, and 260 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 2: there's going to be a speech that I'm sure we'll 261 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 2: all be listening to and watching in Detroit. I don't 262 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: know if you're going to be there for the speech 263 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 2: or if you plan to watch it, but he's also 264 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: going to be touring a Ford factory tomorrow. According to 265 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: the Press secretary, what would be your message to Donald 266 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: Trump before he lands in your state to talk affordability. 267 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 7: Well, I want to say to people I have been 268 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 7: at the last two Detroit Economic Club. 269 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 8: Speeches that he spoke at. 270 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 7: I at two o'clock tomorrow will be in a hearing 271 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 7: on the auto industry on twelve bills, three of which 272 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 7: are mine, including autonomous vehicles. So I'm doing what I'm 273 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 7: supposed to do, which is to put tech the industry 274 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 7: that I represent I will watch the speech, but if 275 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 7: I were to say anything to the President, I would say, 276 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 7: you need to help keep this domestic auto industry strong. 277 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 7: We have been a global leader. They can't constantly be 278 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:22,119 Speaker 7: a ping pong ball. Every business in this country needs certainty. 279 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 7: Cars are becoming too expensive. I agree with the President 280 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 7: on tariffs against China. We need a level playing field, 281 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 7: and we're not playing on a level playing field against China. 282 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 7: They're manipulating their currency, subsidizing their products, losing slave labor. 283 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 7: But this industry needs certainty and they haven't had it. 284 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 7: And I want to work together with my colleagues on 285 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 7: both sides of the album, with the President to have 286 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 7: a stable environment to keep our domestic auto industry affordable 287 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 7: and a global leader. 288 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: Well, I want to hear more about your bill on 289 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 2: autonomous vehicles, so i'd love to have you back to 290 00:15:59,240 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 2: talk about this. 291 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 6: Congresswoman. 292 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: I know that's the bill that you're at least one 293 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: of them that you'll be addressing tomorrow. Safeguards for autonomous 294 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: vehicles could be one of the biggest stories of this 295 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: new year, and it's great to have you back. Congresswoman 296 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 2: Debi Dingle, the Democrat from Michigan with us live from 297 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: Capitol Hill. It's good to see you, and I hope 298 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: twenty twenty six is treating you well so far. 299 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 6: I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington. 300 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 2: This is Balance of Power as we bring you voices 301 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 2: from both sides of the aisle every day here on 302 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 2: this program, we drive forward with help from our political panel. 303 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: Coming up next, Lonnie chen is with us, the Republican 304 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: strategist in Jeanie Shanzino, our Democratic analyst and Bloomberg Politics contributor, 305 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: as we find our way forward on a day that 306 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: has eyes on Jay Powell and the Department of Justice. 307 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 6: Stay with us on Balance of Power. We'll have much 308 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 6: more coming up after this. 309 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power Podcast. Catch 310 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on 311 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: Apple Cockway and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. 312 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 313 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: flagship New York station and just Say Alexa played Bloomberg 314 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: eleven thirty. 315 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 2: Thank you for spending part if you're Monday with us 316 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 2: as we turn our attention to the Arsenal of Freedom 317 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 2: Tour and its next stop. That's what they're calling it 318 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 2: at the Pentagon, the Department of Defense and Secretary Pete 319 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 2: hegseth up with his own trailer of sorts this morning, 320 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 2: climbing the stairs on the jet to say next stop Texas. 321 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 2: And the reason why we're following this is not only 322 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 2: because of Pentagon policy, and the Pentagon is framing this 323 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 2: as the third major speech when he visits space X 324 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: today of his tenure, and a direct follow up to 325 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: his speech at Fort McNair last fall. You remember the 326 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 2: speech about the beardos and the fatties. We don't expect 327 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 2: the same speech this time. In fact, it's going to 328 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 2: be a very different crowd as he speaks to the 329 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 2: rank and file at one of the most important defense 330 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 2: contractors in the country. And it's created a whole new 331 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 2: conversation here in Washington about Elon the political operative, remembering, 332 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 2: of course, he had gone back to Tesla he was 333 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: done with politics following Dojen was going to focus on 334 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 2: the business at hand. He's been spending a lot more 335 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: time with Donald Trump recently and is again appearing with 336 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: the Secretary of War today, making us consider the on again, 337 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 2: off again relationship between Elon Musk and the administration. 338 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 9: And Elon, because he's not very busy, has agreed to 339 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 9: hit that task force. 340 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 8: Be interesting. 341 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 6: If he has the time, have. 342 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 8: Be a good one to do it, isn't it. 343 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 10: Trump has seeded as the presidency to Elon Musk. No, No, 344 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 10: that's not happening. 345 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 8: But Elon's done an amazing job. 346 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 10: Elon can't do and won't do anything without our approval, 347 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 10: and we'll give him the approval we're appropriate with. There's 348 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 10: a conflict that we won't let him get near it, 349 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 10: but he does have a good natural instinct. 350 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 11: I expect to continue to provide advice whatever the President 351 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 11: would like advice, and I hope, I mean yeah, it's 352 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 11: I expect to remain a friend and an advisor and 353 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 11: certainly if there's any President wants me to do, I'm 354 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 11: at the presidents of it. 355 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 9: I'm very surprised. You saw the words he had for me, 356 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 9: the words, and yes, I said anything about me that's bad. 357 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 10: I'd rather have him criticized me than the bill, because 358 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 10: the bill is incredible. 359 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 6: That was so long ago. 360 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 2: Kayley Lines was sitting next to me, but of course 361 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 2: they slowly got back together, and now they're in fact 362 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 2: working together again by way of the Defense Secretary, and 363 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 2: maybe even more. Speaking on Air Force One last night, 364 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: the President going even further to say that he may 365 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 2: hall on Elon Musk to deploy Starlink in Iran to 366 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 2: help anti. 367 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 6: Government protesters there. 368 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: This is where we start with our political panel, the 369 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 2: re emergence of one of the most significant political operatives 370 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: in the last campaign. Bloomberg Politics contributor Genie Shanzeno is 371 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: with US Democracy visiting fellow at Harvard Kennedy School's Ash Center, 372 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: alongside Republican strategist Lonnie Chen, Fellow in American Policy Public 373 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: Policy Studies at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. 374 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 6: It's great to have both of you with us here. Jeanie. 375 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 2: We went through a lot the life and times of 376 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 2: Trump and Musk. Is he back? 377 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 4: He is? 378 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 12: This is actually, I understand Joe, the first time he's 379 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 12: appearing publicly on stage with a senior member of the administration. 380 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 12: So you remember the old song the Boys are back 381 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 12: in Town that has been bringing through my head all day. 382 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 8: It's truly they are reunited. 383 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 12: And I think the poor American Party that he was 384 00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 12: talking about starting may have seen. 385 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 8: It's the death knel of that but you know, the. 386 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 12: Pentagon announced that he was going to be talking about 387 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 12: how he can improve the manufacturing base in the defense 388 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 12: sector and about how the bureaucracy of the Pentagon has 389 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 12: really gotten in the way of that, and I am 390 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 12: so interested to hear that, because, of course, what are 391 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 12: the details there. This is on the heels of the 392 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 12: president asking for one point five trillion dollars of fifty 393 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 12: percent rags in the defense budget for a department that 394 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 12: has never never been able to pass a really simple. 395 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 8: Audit. So you know, what are the specifics there? 396 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 12: And the reality is is that he's right, It is 397 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 12: a disaster over there, particularly the prepurement process. So I'm 398 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 12: hoping that the Defense Secretary of War Secretary is going 399 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 12: to be speaking about how he is going. 400 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 6: To improve that. Well, that's right, Lonnie. 401 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 2: It's an address on how Pentagon bureaucracy is holding back 402 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 2: the nation and hurting firms like SpaceX. So is Elon 403 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 2: Musk maybe not back in the administration, but back in 404 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 2: the family. 405 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 13: Well, I don't know that he ever left the family, 406 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:16,719 Speaker 13: to be honest with you. I mean, I think that 407 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 13: he's someone who's influenced six stens. 408 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 6: I mean, he was characterized as a political operative. 409 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 13: I think his influence and his impact goes well beyond 410 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 13: any operative would ever have. 411 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 6: I mean, this is. 412 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 13: Someone who brings a lot of economic success, clearly someone 413 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 13: who present Trump respects from the perspective of having been 414 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 13: an economic success story. And I think it's interesting the 415 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 13: topic of the conversation that the Secretary is going to 416 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 13: approach today in Texas has more to do with the 417 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 13: continuing expansion in a lot of ways of the American 418 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 13: defense industrial base and the ways in which America is 419 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 13: going to try and be a leader not just in 420 00:22:55,119 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 13: technology necessary for kinetic warfare, but also potentially for the 421 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 13: warfare of the twenty first century, technological warfare, etc. And 422 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 13: I think we're going to see some of that conversation 423 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 13: happening in Texas and over the next several months. 424 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 6: So this is an interesting move, not. 425 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 13: So much because of Elon Musk's re emergence in my mind, 426 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 13: as it is because it does signal I think where 427 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 13: the Defense Department or War Department is going to be 428 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 13: directing its attention over the next several months and years 429 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 13: in terms of procurement, in terms of where the defense 430 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 13: industrial base is headed. 431 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 2: Well, Genie I don't know what Elon Musk thinks about 432 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 2: the President's post last week. 433 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 6: Maybe he asked him to do it. 434 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 2: About the defense contractors, SpaceX is of course more than 435 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 2: a defense contractor. They're involved in any number of civilian operations, 436 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 2: working with NASA and so forth. But it is one 437 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 2: of the most important companies to fulfill Pentagon contracts. And 438 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 2: you remember last week President Trump said it's no longer 439 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 2: appropriate for defense companies to issue dividends or buy back 440 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 2: their own stocks when they're basically working with taxpayer funding. 441 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: SpaceX is private, but only for now. It's supposed to 442 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 2: be one of the biggest IPOs of the year. Is 443 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 2: Zelon Musk going to be the one to hold back 444 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 2: the president on this? 445 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 6: He could very well be. 446 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 12: I am sure the President will hear from him if 447 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 12: he hasn't already on that and other people similarly impacted. 448 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 12: And of course this is what becomes problematic about having 449 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 12: so much reliant sort of a monopoly. And it's not 450 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 12: anything against Elon Musk. I mean, he has done so 451 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 12: tremendous in so many areas. The United States is reliant 452 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 12: on him in so many ways, as are other countries. 453 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 6: I mean just look at what is happening in Iran. 454 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 12: So that is what becomes problematic because then you see 455 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 12: what confronts what may be good policy in the interest 456 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 12: of the American public. You're going to get pushed back 457 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 12: from people like Elon Musk who are negatively impacted by it. 458 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 12: So I think absolutely the President will hear from him, 459 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 12: and we may see the President change his mind or 460 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 12: not pursue that fully. 461 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, as a Republican strategist, Lonnie, do you hope or 462 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 2: do you worry that Elon Musk will open the pocketbook, 463 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 2: will open the wallet for candidates and maybe stump for 464 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: candidates in this midterm cycle? 465 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 6: Do you want him in front of Americans? Well, I 466 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 6: think certainly. 467 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 13: He decides to get involved with his personal finances and 468 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 13: ends up supporting, for example, Republican congressional candidates, I think 469 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 13: that's got to be a net positive in terms of 470 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 13: the resources he brings to the table. This is going 471 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 13: to be a very competitive election cycle. It's going to 472 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 13: be closely watched. There are very few seats that are 473 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 13: going to determine majorities in the House and the Senate, 474 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 13: and it's going to be expensive. And he was such 475 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 13: a significant part of the twenty twenty four cycle in 476 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 13: terms of his contribution in that way, I would think 477 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 13: that Republicans around the country are going to be watching 478 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 13: carefully to see how he gets involved, and I do 479 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 13: think ultimately that involvement will be seen as a net 480 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 13: positive by Republican strategists as well as by Republican candidates 481 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 13: across the country. 482 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 6: Really interesting, Genie. 483 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 2: We're having this conversation as Senator Elizabeth Warren delivers a 484 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 2: speech today at the National Press Club ahead of her 485 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 2: interview here on Bloomberg TV and Radio on the late 486 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 2: edition of Balance of Power. She's going to be with 487 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 2: us at five o'clock. A message for her own party 488 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 2: and its big tent. Democrats are doomed to fail, she 489 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 2: said in twenty twenty six, twenty twenty eight, and beyond, 490 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 2: if they don't stop tiptoeing around donors and corporations and 491 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 2: embrace a populist economic platform. 492 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 6: Is she right? 493 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 8: She has a point. 494 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 12: I mean, the energy on the Democratic side has been there. 495 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 12: We've seen that repeatedly. I don't know if I would 496 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 12: say you have to fully embrace that, but what I 497 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 12: think you do have to fully embrace is the issue 498 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 12: of affordability, because no matter how much money and n 499 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,360 Speaker 12: he was just talking about this that Elon Musk may 500 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 12: put into the races in this midterm cycle, it will 501 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 12: be won or lost on the issue of affordability and 502 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 12: the economy. Populist responses to that are not the only solutions, 503 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 12: but you've got to be talking about that and cannot 504 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 12: be distracted by so many other things going on in 505 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 12: the world. And that's where I think the biggest challenge 506 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 12: for Democrats is. So I'm very anxious to hear her 507 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 12: on that, and also, of course on the Jerome Powell issue. 508 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 12: She'll have a lot to say on that, I'm sure. 509 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 6: Yeah. 510 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 2: Well, in our remaining moment here, Lonnie Chen as President, 511 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 2: Trump calls for a cap on credit card interest rates, 512 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 2: goes after defense contractors for dividends and stock buybacks, and 513 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: calls on institutional investors to be banned from buying single 514 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 2: family homes. 515 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 6: Do you worry that. 516 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 2: People might have trouble telling Democrats and Republicans apart. 517 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 6: Well, this is the. 518 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 13: Thing about populism, right, is that there is a point 519 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 13: at which the left and the right meet, and I 520 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 13: think you're seeing some of that in some of the 521 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 13: recent policy pronouncements. But look, ultimately, I think for the 522 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 13: president it is going to come down to what is 523 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 13: the affordability agenda? Is that something Republicans are going to embrace, 524 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 13: and I think Republicans are going to have to distinguish 525 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 13: themselves on that metric, on demonstrating some commitment to those 526 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 13: issues and on some. 527 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 8: Of these policies. 528 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 13: Joe, you are going to see right and left come 529 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 13: together in potentially by partisan consensus. 530 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 2: It's like a political science class every day here, I 531 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 2: tell you. With the help of Lonnie Chen and Jeannie Shanze, 532 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,479 Speaker 2: no great panel, Thank you both. We've got much more 533 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: ahead on Balance of Power the Monday edition only on 534 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 2: Bloomberg TV. 535 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 6: Name Radio. Stay with us on Balance of Power. We'll 536 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 6: have much more coming up after this. 537 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 538 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on 539 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: Apple Coarclay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. 540 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch 541 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: us live on YouTube. 542 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 2: It was on Friday that we were talking oil here 543 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: with regard to Venezuela, remembering the big meeting that took 544 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: place at the White House with the CEOs from all 545 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 2: the oil majors. There were I believe seventeen major oil 546 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: CEOs in the East room with President Trump, the Vice President, 547 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 2: Secretary of State, and this man, the Secretary of Energy, 548 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 2: Chris Wright, who joined us first after that meeting to 549 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 2: talk about the massive investment that would be required to 550 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 2: stand up Venezuela's oil industry all over again. 551 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 6: Here's what he told us. 552 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 5: We're going to have teams on the ground investigating, following 553 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 5: what's happening with production and the facilities, seeing what the 554 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 5: safety and security situation is like and how that progresses. 555 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 5: But I have no doubt at all we will see 556 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 5: massive increases in investment from many companies into the oil 557 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 5: and gas industry in Venezuela, and the. 558 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 6: Production profile will reflect that. 559 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 5: We'll see growing production later this year, hopefully by this summer. 560 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 2: But of course we talked about some of the pushback 561 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 2: that we heard, or at least the concerns from a 562 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 2: lot of the oil majors who were there because they 563 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 2: know this better than anybody, having already been in Venezuela. 564 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 2: And of course Chevron remains in country, but Exon Mobile, 565 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 2: for instance, pulled out of Venezuela having seen its assets 566 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: seized twice. And you remember this line from Darren Woods 567 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:29,479 Speaker 2: on Friday. Uninvestable was how he described Venezuela. President Trump 568 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 2: not happy about that, saying he was displeased with the 569 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 2: company's response, and told reporters on Air Force One he'd 570 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 2: be inclined to keep Baxon out. Because of that line, 571 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 2: we heard a lot of different narratives in the room. 572 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 2: Harold Ham had nothing but compliments for the President, but 573 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 2: there was still this concern about how long it would take, 574 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 2: how much it would cost, and what it would mean. 575 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 6: For the oil industry at large. 576 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: I'm really glad to say that Bob McNally is with 577 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 2: us to help us get our heads around this project. 578 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 2: The former founder, i should say, in President Apadan Energy Group, 579 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: former Special Assistant Senior Director for International Energy on the 580 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 2: National Security Council, and the President George W. Bush Administration. 581 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 2: Welcome back, Bobb. It's great to be I hope your 582 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 2: year is starting off well. You bet we need you 583 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: at times like these. You say it's always about the barrels, 584 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: and in this case, it's going to take a lot 585 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 2: to get these barrels out of the ground. 586 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 6: Here. 587 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: But of course you have been talking about Venezuela for years, right, 588 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 2: Chevron's been there for one hundred years. I think the 589 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 2: President said what would it take for all of these 590 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: companies to come back into the country and would it 591 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 2: be worth it for them? 592 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 6: Remains the big question is the return there. 593 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 14: Yeah, you know, I think what they're all waiting and 594 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 14: looking for, and Chevron, which toughed it out, is hoping 595 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 14: for that. We're going to see a stable, workable, decent 596 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 14: regime that's going to have favorable commercial terms, good relations 597 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 14: of the United States, and not be sanctioned. But Joe, 598 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 14: if we could just step back for a second, because 599 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 14: I think there's really there's sort of three buckets at 600 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 14: oil we're talking about. There's the thirty million barrels that's 601 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 14: been produced, it's stored. President Trump has a lot of 602 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 14: say about what happens to that, and they're working about 603 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 14: marketing that, but that's easy. Then there's the oil that 604 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 14: might be produced in the next few years if Chevron 605 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 14: gets a license and some DILA in to do that 606 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 14: and so forth. Let's call that the low hanging fruit, 607 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 14: and President Trump has a lot of say over that 608 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 14: as well. Mainly can he help deliver that stable government 609 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 14: we need. But then there's the third bucket, and that's 610 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 14: what I think Exeun was talking about. That's the millions 611 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 14: of barrels a day more that Venezuela could produce. That 612 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 14: is well beyond the Trump administration. That's going to be 613 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 14: measured in years to five year, increments to decades and 614 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 14: tens of billions of dollars. So there's really three buckets 615 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 14: of oil. I think the President's relevant for the first two, 616 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 14: but that third one is what Exuon was speaking about. 617 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 14: And right now it's probably not investable for that long 618 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 14: term and hopefully it will be soon. 619 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 6: We hear about heavy sour crud. 620 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: Does Exon want this kind of oil when it's the 621 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 2: access that it has to other parts of the. 622 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 6: World, It sure does. Doesn't mean to make this about 623 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 6: companies and of. 624 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 8: Them, no, any of them. 625 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 7: No. 626 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 14: Look, so one question would be, look, if we're speaking 627 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 14: here a year ago or two years ago, you'd say, Bob, 628 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 14: everyone says, demands going to peak by twenty thirty. This 629 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 14: is like a horse and buggy factory opening up in 630 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 14: nineteen oh two. 631 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 6: Who wants that? Okay? 632 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 14: But that narrative is collapsing. The IA and others are 633 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 14: realizing we're gonna need a lot more oil, especially in 634 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 14: twenty thirty five. We got plenty of next year, plenty 635 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 14: this year, not in twenty thirty five, so we need 636 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 14: that extra project extra oil from Venezuela. Then there's a 637 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 14: type of oil, Like you said, Joe, not oil is 638 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 14: the same. Venezuela's oil is like molasses, right, it barely moves. 639 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 14: It's got to be upgraded and treated. US companies have 640 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 14: the logistical, engineering, planning, financial wherewithal to turn that molasses 641 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 14: into the gasoline and diesel that you and I use. 642 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 6: And so you almost need. 643 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 14: Those kind of companies to really get Venezuela back in 644 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 14: the game. 645 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 6: So it's just what the doctor ordered. But not till twenty. 646 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 2: Thirty five, what our refiners need to retool to handle 647 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 2: that kind of crew. 648 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 14: Not really, we built our refiners to run that kind 649 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 14: of crude. We get the similar type, similar, not exactly 650 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 14: the same, from Mexico, from Canada. So what we call 651 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 14: complex refineries on the Gulf, big thing. They integrate heat, catalysts, pressure, 652 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 14: They know how to crack that gunk into gasoline. 653 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 2: Okay, so we've got this massive oil reserve in Venezuela. 654 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 2: Everyone's drooling over it. Or we'll just say that for 655 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 2: now and assume that that's true. What if you made 656 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: a massive investment on the Permian, what does that do 657 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,280 Speaker 2: to your domestic investment as an oil company? 658 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 6: Well, you want to have a portfolio. 659 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 14: There's a role for Permian shale oil, which, if I 660 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 14: can extend my analogy, it's sort of like Champagne, not 661 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 14: full of gunk, not full of as high quality oil. 662 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 6: You want to have some of that. 663 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 14: Yeah, but the Permian has matured for the stan of 664 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 14: the time period, it's going to flat line a little bit. 665 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 14: We're looking into twenty thirty five, Joe, and these companies 666 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 14: have a long outlook. They're looking well beyond the Trump administration, 667 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 14: and they're saying, when we lose four to six to 668 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 14: seven million barrels a day of production just from depletion, 669 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 14: where are the new barrels they're going to come to 670 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 14: offset those declines and add new oil which we now 671 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,280 Speaker 14: realize we'll need. So you need light sweet from the Permian, 672 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 14: you need heavy from Canada, Mexico and Venezuela. 673 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 2: Okay, fascinating ten years, one hundred billion dollars is what 674 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 2: they're saying. That would outlive this administration by a lot. 675 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 2: And I think that was the point that you were 676 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 2: getting to. Does this project then go unserved or do 677 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 2: these companies need to do their own exploration? 678 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 6: How do they come to these decisions? 679 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 14: Well, I think, and Darren Wood spoke to this, assuming 680 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 14: we have basic safety and security, yes right, that's important. 681 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 14: I say to folks, other than the airlines show, I 682 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 14: don't know of an industrial sector that takes safety more 683 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 14: seriously than oil companies. And so they're going to get 684 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 14: technical teams in there. Imagine a mansion, in a house 685 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 14: that's been dilapidated for twenty five years and no one's 686 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 14: been inside. You want the architect or the guy to 687 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 14: go in and take a look at the plumbing, the carpets, 688 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 14: has there been water damage. It's the same type of thing, 689 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 14: only on a much bigger scale. So technical teams need 690 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 14: to get in there and look around and see. And 691 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 14: it's not just oil things. Pipelines and upgraders and submersible pumps. 692 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 14: How about electricity, how about roads, how about port capacity. 693 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 14: We're talking about a country, really, and this needs to 694 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 14: be assessed because it's been in Looney Land for twenty 695 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 14: five years. 696 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 6: Really interesting. 697 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 2: With all of that said, we're told that there are 698 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 2: roving bands of militias. There are motorcycle gangs that are 699 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 2: looking for American executives. Would be quite a great target 700 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 2: or American contractors. That gets back to that first bucket 701 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 2: you talked about, right, it's the administration capable of tamping 702 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 2: down that risk. 703 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 14: Well, and with the State Department urging Americans to get 704 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 14: out and be careful. 705 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 2: Okay, oil companies know how to operate in dangerous places. 706 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 6: How does this compare well? 707 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 14: So those two buckets, So, first of all, that oil 708 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 14: is stored, it's either on boats or it's in tanks 709 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 14: on land. If they can talk to some commodity houses 710 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 14: and arrange some transactions, they can probably arrange for that 711 00:36:58,120 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 14: to be shipped out. It was going to go to 712 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 14: China back debt. Now it's going to go to the 713 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 14: highest bidder with the revenue going to some treasury account. 714 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 6: It's that second bunch bucket. 715 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 14: Can Shivron and REPSOL achieve those promises, those those goals 716 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 14: or those targets they gave to the President on Friday? 717 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 14: Can we get thir twenty thirty forty fifty percent higher 718 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 14: production in the next year or two. A bare minimum 719 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 14: is you need safety and security and then you need 720 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 14: the sanctions to be eased. 721 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 6: Need to get that diliuent. 722 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 14: You know, we bring in liquids to cut the molasses 723 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 14: with to make it moved. Do you need to get 724 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,320 Speaker 14: more of that in So, if conditions are right, I 725 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 14: think Secretary Right is a great interview he gave with 726 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 14: you guys. 727 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 6: He's right. 728 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 14: We could see big percentage increases off of the two 729 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 14: forty that Exon's doing now thousand barrels today in the 730 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 14: next year or two if things go well. But you 731 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 14: got to have basics safety. 732 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:42,240 Speaker 6: Wow. 733 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 2: Fascinating as always we learned every time we talked to 734 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,280 Speaker 2: Bob mcnaline, I really appreciate your coming in, Bob, Rapidan 735 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 2: Energy of course and a friend of the program. 736 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 6: We thank you so much. 737 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 2: With our eyes also on Iran, and this is going 738 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 2: to factor in, of course the oil prices as well. 739 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 2: The President has been talking about Iran and posting about 740 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,439 Speaker 2: Iran quite a bit, with protest entering a second week now, 741 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 2: pretty remarkable here with the President talking about this as 742 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 2: recently as yesterday. 743 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 6: Here's the latest from Donald Trump. 744 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 9: There seemed to be some people killed that aren't supposed 745 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 9: to be killed. These are violent, if you call them leaders, 746 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 9: I don't know if their leaders are just they rule 747 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 9: through violence. But we're looking at it very seriously. 748 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 6: We may meet with them. 749 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 15: I mean, a meeting is being set up, but we 750 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 15: may have to act because of what's happening before the meeting. 751 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 15: But a meeting is being set up. Iran call, they 752 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 15: want to negotiating. 753 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 2: Iran called, they want to negotiate. We wanted to talk 754 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 2: about this with Beccha Wasser Bloomberg Economics Defense Geoeconomics team leader. Becca, 755 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 2: you still have the best title in the room. It's 756 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 2: great to see you are. 757 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 6: Are we sure? 758 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 2: Iran called? What do we think the overtures from Tehran include? 759 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 16: Well, I think here they're trying to have an open 760 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 16: dialogue and trying to make it so that we don't 761 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 16: potentially see the use of strikes against them. 762 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 8: As President Trump. 763 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 6: Has they're taking him at his word. 764 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 16: They're taking him at his word, and I mean, at 765 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 16: this point, track record shows that they probably should. Last 766 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,240 Speaker 16: few times that he said that he's going to strike 767 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 16: a country, he's followed through on it. 768 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 8: But also, Iran has fresh wounds. 769 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 16: There have been US and Israeli strikes on their soil 770 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,240 Speaker 16: in very recent memory, so I think there it's trying 771 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 16: to have a conversation, but also in doing so, even 772 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 16: if they make it so that there isn't strikes, it 773 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 16: at least prolongs the timeline we're. 774 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 2: Being told beca that it's different this time when it 775 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 2: comes to the protest. The fact that it's gone on 776 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 2: for this long and the regime has not been able 777 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 2: to essentially scare people back into their homes is remarkable. 778 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 2: We're told some five hundred protesters are dead, eleven thousand 779 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,800 Speaker 2: have been arrested and are being held. 780 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 16: How does this end, Well, I can't tell you how 781 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,240 Speaker 16: it ends necessarily, but I do think there is something 782 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 16: to be said the size of these protests, the spread 783 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 16: across the geography, and the fact that this is not 784 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 16: the first time in recent years where we've seen Iranian 785 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 16: people take to the streets. So there's clearly something internally 786 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 16: that they need to be trying to move the needle 787 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 16: forward on. It's just whether what the US does in 788 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 16: response actually helps the protesters rather than potentially hinders what 789 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 16: they're trying to do. 790 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 2: That could include Internet access by way of starlink. The 791 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 2: President says he is thinking about asking Elon Musk to 792 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 2: do that as the regime has caught out all connectivity 793 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 2: and power in some cases, would that make a difference. 794 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 16: That would definitely make a difference in terms of the 795 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,399 Speaker 16: communication and the ability of the people to get their 796 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,320 Speaker 16: word out there, to tell everyone what's actually happening on soil, 797 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 16: because we don't truly know at this point, So being 798 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 16: able to have increased access would definitely be one of it. 799 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 16: But as we've heard, there's a range of options that 800 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,840 Speaker 16: are going to be put forward to President Trump tomorrow, 801 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 16: and so that ranges from things like providing more internet 802 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:10,240 Speaker 16: access to military strikes to the potential for even cyber 803 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 16: attax or some type of maybe even targeted assassination. Even so, 804 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 16: it's a wide range of options that kind of go 805 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 16: from helping protesters to the more kinetic options that we 806 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 16: usually tend to see. 807 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 2: Your president talked about having a menu of options before him, 808 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 2: and I'm glad you mentioned that this will be an 809 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 2: important briefing tomorrow. Are you watching oil as a potential 810 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,720 Speaker 2: fallout for any sort of kinetic action the military might take. 811 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,359 Speaker 16: Well, we're always looking at oil when it comes down 812 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 16: to any conflict in the Middle East. But I think 813 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 16: one of the things that we've seen is there's been 814 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 16: a great deal of resilience from international oil markets whenever 815 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 16: it relates to conflict, just because conflict is the price 816 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,439 Speaker 16: of doing business. Unfortunately in the Middle East. 817 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 2: That's quite a statement, and of course we did go 818 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 2: through this already with Iran last year. Beka Wasser, we 819 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 2: thank you so much for the insight. Thanks for listening 820 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 2: to the Balance of Power podcast. 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