Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 2: and speaker.
Speaker 3: And this is Sarah Hartunger.
Speaker 4: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger.
Speaker 4: On the side, we are two working parents who love
Speaker 4: our careers and our families.
Speaker 5: Welcome to best of both worlds.
Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,
Speaker 2: and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping
Speaker 2: out long term career goals. We want you to get
Speaker 2: the most out of life.
Speaker 5: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This
Speaker 5: episode is airing in mid December of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 5: Sarah is going to be interviewing doctor Vanessa Carroll, who
Speaker 5: is the CMO of the Mary Bridge Children's Hospital in
Speaker 5: Washington State. I'm very excited to hear from her about
Speaker 5: women in medicine and what it takes to be a
Speaker 5: leader in a hospital system. So, Sarah, maybe you could
Speaker 5: tell us a little bit about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't want to give any spoilers. It was
Speaker 4: a really fun conversation, but doctor Carroll has four children
Speaker 4: and has gone through various different phases of your career,
Speaker 4: so it was interesting to learn about how leadership can
Speaker 4: be incorporated at different phases and how different kinds of
Speaker 4: experiences can kind of come together to give you a new,
Speaker 4: unique expertise that really kind of helps you truly fulfill
Speaker 4: a leadership vision later on. So that was really fun
Speaker 4: to learn about.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because for people who are considering leadership roles, and
Speaker 5: I know we have a ton of listeners who are,
Speaker 5: it's maybe not something that you have to like come
Speaker 5: right out of the gate and say this is what
Speaker 5: I want to do. Like, I mean, there are different
Speaker 5: paths into leadership over the course of your career, correct.
Speaker 4: Yes, And I like to think about how you kind
Speaker 4: of get various nuggets along the way that might be
Speaker 4: really useful someday as you kind of helped to lead
Speaker 4: the next generation of people who might be doing something
Speaker 4: that you were doing, you know, boots on the ground
Speaker 4: previous to that. So I guess it was just interesting
Speaker 4: to hear how the different phases of her journey came together,
Speaker 4: and again how experience and says that you might not
Speaker 4: know could be contributing to a leadership track could actually
Speaker 4: come in very handy. So those were my biggest takeaways
Speaker 4: from the conversation and I really enjoyed talking to her.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and she also shares, you know, the things we
Speaker 5: always love, like a day in the life. I mean,
Speaker 5: what does it look like to be a day in
Speaker 5: the life of somebody with four kids and a big job.
Speaker 5: I know, we always love hearing about that, right.
Speaker 4: Yes, day in the life is not going anywhere. We
Speaker 4: cannot get enough. And she's got both kids in college
Speaker 4: and kids who are a little bit younger, so it's
Speaker 4: kind of fun to explore what that phase of life
Speaker 4: might look like in a leadership type role.
Speaker 5: Exactly how we're all about the big age spread at
Speaker 5: least I am over here, well at one in college,
Speaker 5: one in elementary school. Yes, that is exactly how things
Speaker 5: will go around here. Well, let's go ahead and hear
Speaker 5: from doctor Vanessa Carroll.
Speaker 4: Then, all right, well, I am so excited to welcome
Speaker 4: doctor Vanessa Carroll to this podcast. Now, we had recorded
Speaker 4: the intro prior to this interview, and we thought we
Speaker 4: were going to have the illustrious doctor Barbara Time, who
Speaker 4: we are going to talk about. She is amazing, But
Speaker 4: we ended up having to do a little swap due
Speaker 4: to some technical difficulties. And when I started talking to
Speaker 4: doctor Carroll. I realized that she and doctor Thompson have
Speaker 4: a ton in common, have faced a lot of the
Speaker 4: same challenges, and I'm so excited to welcome you to
Speaker 4: the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 6: I really appreciate this opportunity, and yes, I'm sorry doctor
Speaker 6: Thompson couldn't join, but I will do my best to
Speaker 6: represent the CMO dynamic duo.
Speaker 1: As I'd like to call her, because she is amazing. Oh.
Speaker 4: I love the fact that there are two of you
Speaker 4: and that you have a CMO CEO dynamic duo at
Speaker 4: your healthcare.
Speaker 3: System that is like totally amazing.
Speaker 4: So you are currently serving as the chief medical officer
Speaker 4: at the mary Bridge Children's Hospital. I'm guessing that's maybe
Speaker 4: not where you thought your career was going to end up.
Speaker 4: Give me the whole give me your career journey. When
Speaker 4: you thought about potentially becoming a doctor, did you ever
Speaker 4: see this angle of leaders upcoming?
Speaker 3: And like, how did things evolve?
Speaker 6: So what a great question and a wonderful, exciting journey
Speaker 6: that I'm excited to kind of share because it wasn't
Speaker 6: quite as planned out, but that's kind of how life
Speaker 6: works out. I think some of the best opportunities kind
Speaker 6: of just life presents itself. So I am born and
Speaker 6: raised in New Orleans, Louisiana, trained in the Deep South.
Speaker 6: I started my career with a health system known as Oshner,
Speaker 6: and it was kind of in the wake of Katrina,
Speaker 6: so as Oshner was evolving as an organization who now
Speaker 6: is quite present in that area, so was Pediatric hospital Medicine.
Speaker 1: So it was an incredible opportunity.
Speaker 6: And why I like pediatric hospital medicine is it had
Speaker 6: the acuity at that point, it didn't have the fellowship requirement,
Speaker 6: And essentially it was I wanted a family, and I
Speaker 6: really wanted to be able to balance that time with
Speaker 6: my children and also feel challenged personally professional.
Speaker 1: And it was a perfect.
Speaker 6: Marriage, so to say, in the sense that I got
Speaker 6: to do two things I love.
Speaker 1: Now. Was it easy. Absolutely not.
Speaker 6: I won't even pretend to, you know, make it sound
Speaker 6: like it was this glorious easy thing.
Speaker 1: It required work, but having a great support system.
Speaker 6: You know, my mom actually ended up watching my children
Speaker 6: for a lot of their childhood. We did have nanny's,
Speaker 6: you know, because there is call and responsibilities, and my
Speaker 6: husband does work, so trying to balance multiple careers was challenging.
Speaker 6: But it was wonderful, and then I kind of realized
Speaker 6: after about a decade, this is awesome, But what next?
Speaker 6: My kids were growing up, responsibilities were changing a little bit.
Speaker 6: So I ended up going to work for United Healthcare
Speaker 6: in order to learn about utilization management, because I said,
Speaker 6: the business of medicine, it's really something that I think
Speaker 6: as a physician I kind of lacked. And I would
Speaker 6: have case managers come and say, oh, that doesn't meet
Speaker 6: and I'm.
Speaker 1: Like, doesn't meet what? That person sick? What are you
Speaker 1: talking about? They need to be here and they're like, no, no,
Speaker 1: that's not what it means.
Speaker 6: And I was like, Okay, well I need to understand
Speaker 6: more because at this point I had other physicians and
Speaker 6: I really felt like I wasn't representing their needs well
Speaker 6: because the complexity wasn't being identified as probably as it
Speaker 6: should have been. So I said, all right, this is
Speaker 6: my chance to go behind the curtain and meet OZ.
Speaker 6: So let me go ahead and understand how this utilization works.
Speaker 6: And it was an exceptional experience, and I think it
Speaker 6: was a first time in my career that I realized
Speaker 6: there are multiple perspectives, right, We're all coming together for
Speaker 6: patients and families. We're just doing it differently. And again
Speaker 6: another amazing experience, and said, wow, this is I get it.
Speaker 6: This is a component of healthcare. But I wasn't ready
Speaker 6: to I think go down that pathway, which obviously is
Speaker 6: it's a great one for people who choose it. It's exciting,
Speaker 6: you're learning a ton, It's just a different arm of
Speaker 6: kind of medicine. So then I said, all right, I've
Speaker 6: already done kind of the academic I've done. Now mutilization,
Speaker 6: I need to get a community perspective because I don't
Speaker 6: I feel like I'm missing the other side of the coin.
Speaker 6: So I ended up starting at Coutney Health in Cordelaine, Idaho,
Speaker 6: which is probably one of the most beautiful places on
Speaker 6: the on the earth, So if you have not been,
Speaker 6: I highly encourage it. Exquisite place, incredible people, just an
Speaker 6: enormous opportunity, and I really got to see health care
Speaker 6: from a different lens as someone building out an in
Speaker 6: patient pediatric unit there. And I can tell you when
Speaker 6: I actually met with the CEO, because I was like, why,
Speaker 6: you know, community hospitals, while they might care for a
Speaker 6: lot of patients, why would they want to invest in
Speaker 6: a you know in patient pediatric unit when a lot
Speaker 6: of healthcare is shifting towards more centralized approaches, and the
Speaker 6: CEO when I asked him that very pointed question before
Speaker 6: I moved my family twenty five hundred miles away, which
Speaker 6: now included four children, two dogs, a guinea pig, and
Speaker 6: you know, a houseful of things, I said, help me
Speaker 6: to understand the why, and he said, well, it's because
Speaker 6: it's the right thing to do. And I said, all right,
Speaker 6: that's who I want to be a part of. So
Speaker 6: I was there for about five years, just had an
Speaker 6: incredible opportunity, and I will say a community setting allows
Speaker 6: for I think, more career advancement, more opportunities as far
Speaker 6: as exposure, and it was really kind of an exponential
Speaker 6: path for my career, and in turn then ended up
Speaker 6: have the opportunity to go from a clinical division director
Speaker 6: where I oversaw hospital surgical and some neuroscientists, so more
Speaker 6: adult focus, but still had my peeds there that I
Speaker 6: had started with, and then made it to mary Bridge
Speaker 6: Children's Hospital where I recognize pediatrics is my passion. Kids
Speaker 6: are amazing, You're serving the future today.
Speaker 1: Really it's been a great marriage. So it's been a journey.
Speaker 3: Though, that is amazing.
Speaker 4: I have so many questions, and I also feel like
Speaker 4: we need to clarify a few things for our listeners,
Speaker 4: because our listener vase is certainly not I mean, we
Speaker 4: have plenty of health care providers, but there are all
Speaker 4: sorts of people doing all sorts of things listening. So
Speaker 4: just when she said community was a great opportunity for advancement,
Speaker 4: I think you're referring to versus perhaps like traditional academic medicine.
Speaker 1: Correct exactly exactly. Academia is amazing, and it's so rich
Speaker 1: and it's just such a.
Speaker 6: It's just an incredible experience. Community is just very different,
Speaker 6: and I think if you're in one perspective, you have
Speaker 6: this assumption that it's very similar. And I will tell
Speaker 6: you it, outside of the medicine, it's very different, different resources,
Speaker 6: different stakeholders, different engagement. So both wonderful in their own
Speaker 6: right though, and absolutely essential to healthcare across the country.
Speaker 3: Yes, very very true.
Speaker 4: So I also want to start a little tangential here,
Speaker 4: but how old were your kids with each of those moves,
Speaker 4: and how did you handle that and what did the
Speaker 4: conversations look like? Because you said your husband works as well,
Speaker 4: so like weighing the risk benefit of moving the family
Speaker 4: primarily for your role.
Speaker 1: So what a great question.
Speaker 6: So I'll start by saying, when I was in med school,
Speaker 6: there was this conversation that if you want to have children,
Speaker 6: do it in your fourth year. It's perfect timing. You know,
Speaker 6: it's an easier rotation. So my husband and I did that.
Speaker 6: The part they forgot to tell me was that when
Speaker 6: you're an intern and this is before duty hours, congratulations,
Speaker 6: you've got a four or five month old. So that
Speaker 6: was maybe not the opportunity I had hoped for.
Speaker 1: But my daughter's amazing.
Speaker 6: I mean, they are incredible, just really has brought so
Speaker 6: much joy and knowledge to my you know, just experience,
Speaker 6: both as a mom and as a physician. So totally grateful.
Speaker 6: Along that line, the next one came during a resident
Speaker 6: which fun, very very fun, definitely add some complexity to it,
Speaker 6: But on this one I ended up taking a little
Speaker 6: time off, and the type a personality in me felt
Speaker 6: a little bad about doing it because I was like, oh,
Speaker 6: I'm slacking, But in reality that time with my daughter Daisy,
Speaker 6: I would never trigued. I mean it was this is
Speaker 6: a marathon, not a sprint. So if you can capture
Speaker 6: those moments, don't feel guilty about it, you know. But
Speaker 6: if you can't do it, I understand. I mean their
Speaker 6: bills to be paid, their responsibilities, but if you're given
Speaker 6: that option, that would be ideal. My two sons that
Speaker 6: came later, I was staffed so very very different. I
Speaker 6: will tell you it gets easier as you get older.
Speaker 6: So just something to keep in mind. And they've been incredible.
Speaker 6: And what's funny is that three of the four want
Speaker 6: to be physicians. So obviously the lifestyle hasn't been too terrible,
Speaker 6: but you're right, the moves have been challenging because for kids,
Speaker 6: that's where their friends are, that's where you know, their
Speaker 6: relationships are, that's where their experiences are, and everyone has
Speaker 6: these expectations about where it's things are going to go
Speaker 6: for them. So when there's a change, there's a little
Speaker 6: bit of that removal of that opportunity, and that becomes
Speaker 6: hard no matter.
Speaker 1: How old you are. Young old.
Speaker 6: So I can tell you on this last move, it
Speaker 6: was especially hard on my teenage son who's in high school,
Speaker 6: and we really had to work through that and explain
Speaker 6: the why. Lots of conversations, but he's doing great, and
Speaker 6: it's just you know, I like I explain to him
Speaker 6: it's another opportunity for him to learn how nimble he
Speaker 6: can be, how he can reinvent himself, and just how
Speaker 6: amazing this country is because the experiences are so diverse.
Speaker 3: Oh that's awesome.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And in some ways it's true that it gets
Speaker 4: like harder the older your kids get, but what a
Speaker 4: cool experience for them to really experience two different places
Speaker 4: and like you know, understand maybe two different cultures as
Speaker 4: they move forward in adulthood. So I can see that
Speaker 4: that would be kind of like a mix bag. Okay,
Speaker 4: so now we're in the present. We've kind of taken
Speaker 4: you through training one baby in med school, one baby
Speaker 4: in residency, and then two after the fact. And you
Speaker 4: did say that it gets easier, but then your body's
Speaker 4: also older, so like you know, it's like a seesaw and.
Speaker 3: You have to train one for the other. So that's
Speaker 3: super interesting.
Speaker 4: I had one in fellowship I won, and one in
Speaker 4: residency but couldn't get pregnant because probably because residency, and
Speaker 4: then had the other two as an attending. And I
Speaker 4: do agree with you that the resources available to you
Speaker 4: when you are earning an actual paycheck. My husband is
Speaker 4: medical as well, so our paychecks coincided. It did make
Speaker 4: things a lot easier, but it was sweet the first
Speaker 4: time too. All Right, Sorry, that was my digression. So
Speaker 4: we're gonna actually take a very quick break and be
Speaker 4: back with some more questions in a moment. Okay, we
Speaker 4: are back, and now we're kind of up in the present,
Speaker 4: as we said, And tell me about how is this
Speaker 4: You are now in like a sea sweet position. You
Speaker 4: have moved up through the ranks, You've done kind of
Speaker 4: different things along the way that were really interesting. What
Speaker 4: has been the hardest part about that for you? And
Speaker 4: maybe talk about how if there are commonalities that you
Speaker 4: and doctor Thompson, your colleague, have kind of faced together.
Speaker 4: As you said, you're like a dynamic duo as women
Speaker 4: in leadership at your organization.
Speaker 6: Well, you know what I really appreciate most about Multiicare
Speaker 6: and Mary Bridge recognizing the need for physician leadership. And
Speaker 6: that's where doctor Thompson and I really are an incredible
Speaker 6: partner because of the fact that she has that commitment
Speaker 6: to the outpatient side of healthcare, while I have that
Speaker 6: commitment to the inpatient side of healthcare. And while they're similar,
Speaker 6: they're very different. And having that be acknowledged and recognized
Speaker 6: by an organization that says no, no, this is so
Speaker 6: important to have physician leaders really deep in the operations,
Speaker 6: everything in the strategy, in the you know, basically culture,
Speaker 6: in the fine answers, I mean, you name it. That
Speaker 6: is really a testament because a lot of organizations have
Speaker 6: just one CMO and I can tell you if you're
Speaker 6: covering any kind of network or spectrum of services, whether
Speaker 6: that's clinics, urgent cares, off campus ds, micro hospitals, hospitals,
Speaker 6: it's really hard because you're going to be spread a
Speaker 6: little bit thin, so the depth of I think what
Speaker 6: you can assist with or support is probably different. So
Speaker 6: having doctor Thompson to really own funnel her knowledge as
Speaker 6: a pedzender chronologist who really knows what makes clinics high functioning,
Speaker 6: and she's a machine when it comes to epic and
Speaker 6: smart phrases. I mean, like, oh my gosh, her efficiency.
Speaker 6: So having her in that space is incredible because then
Speaker 6: I have this hospital medicine side that between the two
Speaker 6: of us, though we come together on some of the
Speaker 6: specialties like surgery where they cross both sides. GI cross
Speaker 6: both sides, So how can we support them in each
Speaker 6: environment with clarity but also advocate for what their needs
Speaker 6: are from that medical lens. So it's really exciting, and
Speaker 6: I have to say I applaud the organization for recognizing
Speaker 6: it because there aren't very many places. I mean, cmos
Speaker 6: are rather expensive and they require support, whether that's executive
Speaker 6: assistance or project managers. And when you start to double that,
Speaker 6: that can be a significant lift. So really, but I
Speaker 6: have to tell you, if anyone's listening has ever thought
Speaker 6: about it, a C suite, highly recommend because the deliverables,
Speaker 6: the outcomes, just your physician culture is so much richer.
Speaker 3: Oh, I believe it.
Speaker 4: I mean the fact that you're able to kind of
Speaker 4: have influence on so many people that are working with
Speaker 4: you to achieve aims and really influence the culture and
Speaker 4: the fact that you have two women doing that, to
Speaker 4: me is extra special.
Speaker 3: Has that come into play?
Speaker 4: Have you mentored women who are really really happy to
Speaker 4: see someone who knows what they are going through above them?
Speaker 4: And also, I guess the flip side, have you come
Speaker 4: into any challenges when you are faced with maybe with
Speaker 4: a boardroom full of mostly men, how has that gone
Speaker 4: for you?
Speaker 6: You know, I think that's such an important call out,
Speaker 6: and I think it's really about recognizing you want to
Speaker 6: have people bring out the best, whether you're assigned female
Speaker 6: at birth, assigned male at birth, and really just harness
Speaker 6: their strengths and really promote them and figure out what
Speaker 6: brings you joy, because we all have our own individual joy.
Speaker 1: And I think having that understanding that.
Speaker 6: Especially in today's age, both moms and dads and aunts, uncles,
Speaker 6: they want to be engaged and they want to have time,
Speaker 6: and I think really being thoughtful of that work life
Speaker 6: integration and meeting people where they are because I'll be honest,
Speaker 6: I've recognized some physicians that I'm like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 6: you would be the most incredible leader, and they're like,
Speaker 6: you know what, I really appreciate that, but I'm not
Speaker 6: there right now. You know, my kids are young. I
Speaker 6: want to be present. I'm not ready to take that on.
Speaker 6: And I think that self awareness is incredibly important because
Speaker 6: if you love what you do, it's not work. But
Speaker 6: if you feel like it's an extra pressure, I think
Speaker 6: it can be really hard. So whether that's a mom
Speaker 6: or a dad, I think my goal as a CMO
Speaker 6: is to recognize people's strengths, harness them in the capacity
Speaker 6: or to the level that they're able to lean into,
Speaker 6: and really kind of just recognize how special we all are,
Speaker 6: but also really acknowledged diversity is essential. Like, if we
Speaker 6: have a bunch of people think in the same way,
Speaker 6: we're not going to really move the needle. We need,
Speaker 6: you know, women, we need men, we need young, we
Speaker 6: need older, we need experience, we need brand new to
Speaker 6: the market. So I think I'm more thoughtful about not
Speaker 6: necessarily women or men. It's everybody coming together and really
Speaker 6: just kind of supporting where the individual is.
Speaker 4: And if you run into someone who you think would
Speaker 4: have great leadership potential and say, well, right now, I
Speaker 4: have kids, Like, I guess I'm curious because like part
Speaker 4: of me wants to push back on that. I mean,
Speaker 4: there are some leadership roles which in some ways afford
Speaker 4: you more flexibility, especially at kind of like the upper end,
Speaker 4: and someone may count themselves out and need encouragement to
Speaker 4: be like no, like we're in a culture where you know,
Speaker 4: you still get time off or we cover for each
Speaker 4: other or what like how do you handle that when
Speaker 4: you see someone promising but kind of not wanting to
Speaker 4: accept responsibility, maybe not not based on facts.
Speaker 6: It's such a hard conversation. I'm not gonna lie because
Speaker 6: you want to be respectful and not aggressive, because you
Speaker 6: also don't want to be in a leadership role that
Speaker 6: you are using your position to force a decision, because
Speaker 6: that is a huge You've missed that moment. So it's
Speaker 6: really about having I think the relationship and having the
Speaker 6: conversation and saying, well, tell me what success looks like
Speaker 6: to you.
Speaker 1: How can I.
Speaker 6: Support where you want to go? And I again, like
Speaker 6: we talked about healthcare, it's a marathon, not a sprint.
Speaker 6: Your career has different chapters of the book, and how
Speaker 6: can I set you up to be ready for that
Speaker 6: next chapter? So I feel like if I can start
Speaker 6: to provide little nuggets and knowledge and little projects or
Speaker 6: opportunities that they are specifically engaged in, then that starts
Speaker 6: to snowball and there starts to be more engagement. But
Speaker 6: You're right, the timelines are a little bit sometimes challenging
Speaker 6: because I'm like, oh my gosh, you could be such
Speaker 6: an incredible asset. Just really advocate for your patients, advocate
Speaker 6: for your department. Allow this opportunity within our system. But
Speaker 6: then I have to pause and realize, but that's.
Speaker 1: Not what they want right now.
Speaker 6: And I would rather have them love what they do
Speaker 6: now and then love what they do in the future
Speaker 6: instead of you potentially run the risk of burning them
Speaker 6: out and having that sour experience of what leadership is like.
Speaker 6: So I think it's really just listening. And as a
Speaker 6: good leader, I think I can't stress that enough. The
Speaker 6: leaders I've had have all listened really carefully to what
Speaker 6: I had said and then help me on my journey.
Speaker 6: So I would love to be able to one day
Speaker 6: say I was a you know, a good leader and
Speaker 6: did that for others.
Speaker 4: And I love the idea as you said, like even
Speaker 4: if someone's not ready at one given time, that doesn't
Speaker 4: mean that in two years that same person might be
Speaker 4: absolutely ready. And like to plant the seeds that like, hey,
Speaker 4: even if this isn't what you want right now, you
Speaker 4: still have options. You still could grow in these different ways.
Speaker 4: So I like the idea of an open door.
Speaker 6: Well, and like you said, every experience is a learning opportunity,
Speaker 6: even if you have some challenges or it's perceived as oh,
Speaker 6: that project failed or whatever you want to call it,
Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, we come away with such knowledge and
Speaker 6: you learn to you know, the PDSA plan, do study act.
Speaker 6: It's just you were like, well, I'm not going to
Speaker 6: do that again. So even if it's not the experience
Speaker 6: you would hope for, you can pivot and figure out
Speaker 6: on your next opportunity what are you personally and professionally
Speaker 6: going to do different? So I think there's a win
Speaker 6: no matter what. It's just recognizing does that person feel
Speaker 6: the same way as you do? And I think that's
Speaker 6: some of that's just experienced.
Speaker 3: No, that totally makes sense.
Speaker 4: All right, Well, how about physician and healthcare provider and
Speaker 4: we can even extend this beyond that, But like professional
Speaker 4: with a family wellness, that is a hot topic, especially
Speaker 4: in the physician space right now. I feel like I
Speaker 4: see a new statistic every day related to burnout or
Speaker 4: related to job dissatisfaction. I think I got an email
Speaker 4: in my inbox yesterday that was from health Grades and
Speaker 4: it was like seven reasons doctors are leaving medicine, and
Speaker 4: I a lot of them had some value to it,
Speaker 4: like too much time spent on the EMR things like that.
Speaker 4: So how do you think about these topics, What do
Speaker 4: you think some of the answers are and maybe what
Speaker 4: are some of the specific challenge you've seen facing mothers
Speaker 4: in particular, since that is a lot of our audience
Speaker 4: based women who have careers, who have families and really
Speaker 4: want to enjoy both.
Speaker 6: So that's one of those things that keeps me up
Speaker 6: at night. I'm not gonna lie because especially whether it's healthcare,
Speaker 6: whether it's law, whether it's engineering, whether it's anything on
Speaker 6: the spectrum. I mean, work is a huge responsibility and
Speaker 6: I know we all wake up and we want to
Speaker 6: do our very best. If you don't love what you do,
Speaker 6: it is challenging and feeling that you're not being successful
Speaker 6: in your job nor being successful in your family. I
Speaker 6: do think plays a really big role in how people
Speaker 6: just burn out, and specifically in referencing healthcare, we know
Speaker 6: we're going to be over one hundred thousand physicians down
Speaker 6: by twenty thirty four. I mean that's an insane amount
Speaker 6: of money. So it's almost like we have to stop
Speaker 6: the bleeding. We have to be able to understand how
Speaker 6: do we restore that joy because I mean you look
Speaker 6: at a med student, I mean they're so excited they're
Speaker 6: so elated. They're just enthusiastic to take on this world
Speaker 6: of healthcare, and somewhere along the path, like you said,
Speaker 6: life kind of catches up and it's a little bit
Speaker 6: a little bit draining at times. So the physician wellness
Speaker 6: or whatever professional wellness is, really it has to be
Speaker 6: a focus or our workforce won't be sustainable. And I
Speaker 6: think the ways we can do that is acknowledging where
Speaker 6: people are giving them space to have influence, because again,
Speaker 6: burnout isn't specifically only because of the tasks, or only
Speaker 6: because of finance, or only because of leadership exchanges. It's
Speaker 6: all of them put together, and it's feeling valued. So
Speaker 6: how do we help people to realize they are so valued?
Speaker 6: And that's also being respectful of work life integration. And
Speaker 6: I can tell you my work in my life has
Speaker 6: almost been like a sign wave, you know what I mean,
Speaker 6: Like there are times where I'm doing really well, and
Speaker 6: then there's times where I'm just fumbling the bag miserably,
Speaker 6: and I think it's okay to get I would love
Speaker 6: more and more, especially mothers who are still trying to
Speaker 6: have this transition between being one hundred percent, you know,
Speaker 6: the family's support to being one hundred percent the career person.
Speaker 6: I think that's a really hard bridge because so many
Speaker 6: of our dads are staying home and managing families and
Speaker 6: really trying to find what brings them joy in different
Speaker 6: ways that are different than what has been the traditional norm.
Speaker 6: And I think that is so wonderful because we can
Speaker 6: all find our happiness. How do we do it together
Speaker 6: and integrating that balance, and it's really going to be
Speaker 6: having a great support system. I think you can't do
Speaker 6: it alone. You need to have some resources to kind
Speaker 6: of allow you to recognize you need a break, either
Speaker 6: from work or from the family support. So how do
Speaker 6: we do that, How do we navigate that? How do
Speaker 6: we give that space? Because to your point, wellness is
Speaker 6: essential and if we are always feeling like we're not
Speaker 6: where we want to be, that is going to lead
Speaker 6: to more challenges. And that's a hard way to live
Speaker 6: when you've come in with such a light and a
Speaker 6: brightness and you don't want to see it blown out
Speaker 6: in any capacity. So I think having that awareness that
Speaker 6: work hours are going to look different, responsibilities are going
Speaker 6: to look different, leadership is going to look different. How
Speaker 6: do we make this a sustainable journey instead of a
Speaker 6: fast sprint that just leaves everyone kind of exhausted at
Speaker 6: the end. So I think this is something we really
Speaker 6: need to spend a lot of time on and figure
Speaker 6: out how do we rekindle that spark that love and
Speaker 6: also recognize if you're really happy at home, you're going
Speaker 6: to be probably pretty happy at work, and how do
Speaker 6: we make that symbiotic energy flow.
Speaker 4: Ooh, that's an interesting concept, the idea that the happy
Speaker 4: you are at one place, the happy you or you
Speaker 4: probably are in another. I hadn't really thought about that,
Speaker 4: but I can think of some examples kind of on
Speaker 4: either direction for that of people that I know and.
Speaker 3: Have worked with.
Speaker 4: And that's that's a really interesting concept, I guess, because
Speaker 4: we're all the same person. So someone that's happy at
Speaker 4: work and feels sustained goes home and is refreshed and
Speaker 4: then can enjoy their family more.
Speaker 3: So that's super interesting. What about you?
Speaker 4: What do you like to do for fun? What recharges you?
Speaker 4: What do you do for your own wellness?
Speaker 6: So my recharger is absolutely my family. I mean, I
Speaker 6: have four amazing children, and like I said, they teach
Speaker 6: me more every day than any book or magazine I
Speaker 6: might read because I think they're just so authentic, and
Speaker 6: when they're sharing their experiences or challenges, it's so true
Speaker 6: to the hard. So any opportunity I can meet them
Speaker 6: where they are, I am there. So I have now
Speaker 6: become an anime enthusiast because that is where some of
Speaker 6: them were. So I enjoy watching anime with my children
Speaker 6: when that's one of their objectives. If I have my
Speaker 6: choice of what activities we're going to do as a family,
Speaker 6: I love snowscan, I love water scan.
Speaker 1: I'm a huge runner.
Speaker 6: I also really just enjoy like a good book, you
Speaker 6: know what I mean, being able just to sit down
Speaker 6: and immerse myself, either in fiction or kind of even
Speaker 6: self improvement, like I'm a big Brene Brown fan, and
Speaker 6: just really appreciate every time I come away, I feel
Speaker 6: like I've learned something professionally and I've learned something personally.
Speaker 6: So I cannot stress how important it is I think
Speaker 6: for people to acknowledge they need that recharge space because
Speaker 6: if you just keep running at one hundred percent on
Speaker 6: either venture, either that's your personal or your professional life,
Speaker 6: you just kind of burn out. So that goes back
Speaker 6: to that wellness conversation is I hope people find that balance,
Speaker 6: because there is a balance, and like I said, if
Speaker 6: someone finds it, let me know, I'm still trying to
Speaker 6: find my own. But uh, I think that's the fun
Speaker 6: of it all though. It appreciates those moments when you
Speaker 6: do have that downtime and you cherish the people you're with.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 4: Can you take us through a quick example day in
Speaker 4: the life. Our listeners love this, They love logistics. I
Speaker 4: don't know if your kids are still young enough to
Speaker 4: need any form of childcare, but if so, definitely include that.
Speaker 4: Like we've had lots of interesting learning about different no
Speaker 4: pair setups and all that kind of stuff. So take
Speaker 4: us through a day in the life. Although I'm sure
Speaker 4: as a leader they're probably all different.
Speaker 6: Well, I have two daughters that are in college, so
Speaker 6: when they come home, the day in the life gets
Speaker 6: far more exciting. But I still have my two sons.
Speaker 6: So when I wake up, I actually have three dogs
Speaker 6: and we have an axe a lottle, which if you
Speaker 6: don't know what an ax lottle is, google it most
Speaker 6: adorable creature you'll ever see. So get up, I feed
Speaker 6: our animals. I then get myself ready tell my boys,
Speaker 6: you know, it's time to wake up, because even though
Speaker 6: there's teenagers and they have multiple alarms, I'm sure most
Speaker 6: of you realize sometimes those alarms are not effective. So
Speaker 6: I get them going. And my husband's a great partner
Speaker 6: because we kind of tag team on this when he
Speaker 6: actually works from home, so we're super blessed in that
Speaker 6: respect that only one of us have a commute. And
Speaker 6: then I'll obviously get myself ready head into work using
Speaker 6: my work starts with meetings, and I know that's kind
Speaker 6: of one of the transitions in healthcare as you go
Speaker 6: into leadership, you lose some of that patient facing time.
Speaker 6: So it's a little bit of a balance and a
Speaker 6: little bit of a challenge because I can tell you, like,
Speaker 6: for instance, Monday, I was clinical in the hospital, so
Speaker 6: my day was actually getting up and then see patients
Speaker 6: for about a ten hour shift and then catching up
Speaker 6: on literally one hundred emails that had kind of progressed
Speaker 6: over the day. So that's probably not the best day
Speaker 6: in the life to highlight, but that's a real day.
Speaker 1: Most of the.
Speaker 6: Time, it's going to be meetings, which, like I said,
Speaker 6: it's not so much about a specific item, it's a
Speaker 6: lot of exciting ones about what is our strategy in
Speaker 6: the urgent care space, what is our plan for outreach,
Speaker 6: what is our plan for medical education?
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 6: So it's a lot of really high level but it
Speaker 6: really fills your cup because it's this hope of what
Speaker 6: is to come if I'm not on service all round
Speaker 6: in the hospital and really get a chance to kind
Speaker 6: of see the people that are doing the work, you know,
Speaker 6: how is their day going, thank them for what they're doing,
Speaker 6: because this is, like you said, it can be a
Speaker 6: grind at times, and recognizing that we all have our
Speaker 6: own lives going on in the background. Just acknowledging you
Speaker 6: are so important and I can't thank you enough.
Speaker 1: For what you're doing.
Speaker 6: I think it's just that validation that many of us need.
Speaker 6: And then I'll go through and I'll probably get a
Speaker 6: couple of text messages from my children telling me something
Speaker 6: super exciting that derailed the day a little bit. And
Speaker 6: then I'll keep going with some meetings and come home
Speaker 6: and see my sons.
Speaker 1: They'll tell me about their day.
Speaker 6: We'll kind of eat dinner, and I think having that
Speaker 6: time around the table, if people can do it, I know,
Speaker 6: not everybody's able to, but if you can really focus
Speaker 6: in and have those real conversations, that time is invaluable.
Speaker 6: And then my boys kind of scatter off and do
Speaker 6: their homework or talk to friends, while my husband and
Speaker 6: I kind of take that time just to kind of
Speaker 6: connect and you know, kind of debrief on the day
Speaker 6: and also prep for what's coming on the next day.
Speaker 6: So every day is different. But I really feel fortunate
Speaker 6: to be in a leadership role while also having children
Speaker 6: who are now reaching adulthood and realize that they're doing
Speaker 6: pretty well, because in those moments, I'm not gonna lie
Speaker 6: as a working mom, it's like, oh my goodness, you know,
Speaker 6: how is this going to turn out? And I just
Speaker 6: want to tell your leaders and your listeners and your
Speaker 6: friends and your colleagues it will be okay. Just stay strong,
Speaker 6: realize it's okay to ask for help. More importantly, please
Speaker 6: applaud one another for a great job doing what they're doing,
Speaker 6: and recognize that we're all in this together, and just
Speaker 6: be kind.
Speaker 3: That is awesome. That is so awesome.
Speaker 4: We're about to close, but one last thing, and I
Speaker 4: know you're not a regular listener, but we do always
Speaker 4: have a love of the week, So I will go first.
Speaker 4: I'm going to share mine in your honor, and mine
Speaker 4: is my Patagonia puffy down sweater that I actually wore
Speaker 4: to soccer practice last night because it was like fifty
Speaker 4: five degrees and I was freezing and that's cold to us.
Speaker 4: So I was inspired when I was in Seattle to
Speaker 4: buy one and now I just wear it every time
Speaker 4: that I go anywhere slightly temperate.
Speaker 3: So that is my love of the week. What is
Speaker 3: your love of the week?
Speaker 6: Oh man, Well, so I'm right by Seattle and it
Speaker 6: has been raining. I'm not even lying for like multiple days.
Speaker 6: So my love of the week is my Columbia raincoat
Speaker 6: right now because it is definitely worth every penny it
Speaker 6: is based on because my gosh, it is just wet.
Speaker 6: But I appreciate, like you said, being able to show
Speaker 6: up as well as I can each morning.
Speaker 1: So that's my love.
Speaker 3: Awesome.
Speaker 4: So, yes, Reindeer is our theme for the week and
Speaker 4: cold weather. Well, thank you so much, doctor Carol for
Speaker 4: coming on. This has been such a pleasure. I feel
Speaker 4: very inspired.
Speaker 1: Ah, thank you.
Speaker 6: I appreciate your time and thanks for all you do
Speaker 6: and spreading this support because it is a team effort.
Speaker 5: Well that was fascinating. Great to hear about leadership roles
Speaker 5: and medicine and what we can learn about that. So
Speaker 5: today's question is in one version of when We Get
Speaker 5: a Lot. So this person writes in that she is
Speaker 5: interested in working part time, was debating a shift to
Speaker 5: an eighty percent schedule. She says, I would love to
Speaker 5: just be off on Fridays and work a four day week. However,
Speaker 5: Laura has said she doesn't recommend it, so can you
Speaker 5: share it your thoughts? So first let's get to Sarah's thought,
Speaker 5: because Sarah actually has worked an eighty percent schedule, So
Speaker 5: we'll hear from the trenches on that.
Speaker 4: I do currently work a sixty percent schedule.
Speaker 5: Six eighty percent. And there's a difference.
Speaker 4: Oh, I have done eighty, I have done ninety.
Speaker 1: I have done a.
Speaker 5: Lot of ninety seven point three? Why not?
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, ninety was like getting a day off every
Speaker 4: two weeks to podcast specifically, so it kind of worked.
Speaker 4: But sixty percent's been great for me. And here are
Speaker 4: my criteria for when I think you can do a
Speaker 4: part time job effectively. You have very clear production objectives
Speaker 4: and you have very specific coverage for days. You're not
Speaker 4: going to be there, I think if either one of
Speaker 4: those is nebulous, don't do it. Yeah, So like examples
Speaker 4: that work. My example, I see patients Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.
Speaker 4: There's no expectation that I go to my inbox or
Speaker 4: do clinical work on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I'm lucky to
Speaker 4: work in a field where there's generally not any outpatient
Speaker 4: type emergencies that need attention before the next day, so
Speaker 4: this works well. And then if you're a shift worker,
Speaker 4: like if you work in the er, you can take
Speaker 4: a specific percentage of shifts and work part time pretty
Speaker 4: well because when you're on, you're on, and when.
Speaker 3: You're off, you're off.
Speaker 4: If you are certain times of law, and maybe especially
Speaker 4: if you shared a position so that you were truly
Speaker 4: not on call on days that they were working like
Speaker 4: you were, people knew they should only contact both of you,
Speaker 4: and you wann't to touch your inbox on a Tuesday.
Speaker 4: If you don't work on Tuesday, and you have like
Speaker 4: a lower billable hours goal that's proportional, then that might work.
Speaker 4: But when things get nebulous or there isn't coverage, I
Speaker 4: think you can very quickly get in trouble. And that
Speaker 4: is where Laura will come in with the rest of
Speaker 4: this answer.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean again, in those situations where it's
Speaker 5: very clear that you are on or you are off,
Speaker 5: then it can work. I would say, however, that there
Speaker 5: are probably a great many people in full time roles
Speaker 5: who are only working eighty percent of the time because
Speaker 5: they are coasting the rest of the time. And I
Speaker 5: understand that, and it may not be a very attractive proposition,
Speaker 5: but the truth is, like, what people do in a
Speaker 5: lot of jobs is incredibly nebulous, and so how are
Speaker 5: you judging what eighty percent of that amount of work is.
Speaker 5: My guess is that in many corporate roles, you try
Speaker 5: to set something like I want to be off on Fridays,
Speaker 5: but they're like, well, we have your biggest clients coming
Speaker 5: to meet on Friday. You can't be off on Friday.
Speaker 5: You're like, okay, fine, I'll do that. Or you know,
Speaker 5: your colleague is like, look, look, we have something that's happening.
Speaker 5: You got to dial in for this meeting on Friday.
Speaker 5: Or you're checking your email because because you are, because
Speaker 5: like you know, stuff's coming in and if you don't
Speaker 5: see it, you're going to be behind on it, and
Speaker 5: so you wind up working somebody else's equivalent of one
Speaker 5: hundred percent, only you are definitely taking a pay cut,
Speaker 5: right like you are taking a pay cut. If you
Speaker 5: don't know exactly how many hours full time is, it
Speaker 5: is very hard to determine what eighty percent is going
Speaker 5: to be. And so you know, some places are like, oh, well,
Speaker 5: we all work sixty hours a week here, and they don't.
Speaker 5: But you're like, oh, well, I've got to work eighty percent.
Speaker 5: Then if I want to work like a forty five
Speaker 5: hour week or WHATND No, No, don't do that because
Speaker 5: it's gonna like they're only working fifty as well, and
Speaker 5: they're just claiming to work sixty and so you're going
Speaker 5: to work just as much and you're gonna get paid less.
Speaker 5: So I think you're better off being in a situation
Speaker 5: where you have some control over your time and flexibility,
Speaker 5: because it is often not the exact number of hours worked,
Speaker 5: it is how much control you have over them. So
Speaker 5: if you're like, hey, you know, actually i'd like to
Speaker 5: go hang out in my kids class on Tuesday morning
Speaker 5: this week, and you can make that happen, then you
Speaker 5: don't need a day off. You just need to like
Speaker 5: not take a call before eleven o'clock on Tuesday morning,
Speaker 5: and if you have work you need to do, you
Speaker 5: finish it up Tuesday night or something like that. The
Speaker 5: problem of trying to have an exact day off in
Speaker 5: nebulous sorts of jobs is like, well, maybe all the
Speaker 5: stuff you want to do in your personal life isn't
Speaker 5: always happening on Friday. Like you know, you want to
Speaker 5: go on Tuesday, but then you're gonna have to take
Speaker 5: time off for that, but the Friday is already you know.
Speaker 5: It's just you want a job where you have flexibility
Speaker 5: and autonomy, and then it's fine to just work full
Speaker 5: time and arrange your hours around life as it is.
Speaker 5: So anyway, that is my soapbox on it, and I'm
Speaker 5: sure plenty of people have had it work well because
Speaker 5: they have very good boundaries. But I think a lot
Speaker 5: of people are in situations where there are less clear boundaries,
Speaker 5: and so going part time will not necessarily help you
Speaker 5: achieve the work life balance that you're going for, but
Speaker 5: it will make you earn less. I would also say,
Speaker 5: you know what are you using that time for? By
Speaker 5: the way, too, because if you are going to do
Speaker 5: a lot of people like, well, we're so behind on
Speaker 5: the housework. The house is a mess, so I need
Speaker 5: to work four days a week. It's like, okay, so
Speaker 5: you're trading off. You're likely hire paying work to do
Speaker 5: this unpaid in your case, you know work, Like why
Speaker 5: is that that's not you know you can hire somebody
Speaker 5: else to do that? Like why don't you work full
Speaker 5: time and pay a housekeeper versus having this economic transaction
Speaker 5: that just doesn't make sense of like not being paid
Speaker 5: or higher rate to do unpaid labor that somebody else
Speaker 5: could do. Now, if you're going to spend it with
Speaker 5: your kids, awesome, Like that's a different matter, right because
Speaker 5: that is maybe something that you want to invest more
Speaker 5: time in. Or if you have a creative project that
Speaker 5: you are doing and you know for sure you're going
Speaker 5: to get that day off to be in that creative headspace. Again,
Speaker 5: that can be a great situation, but for many people
Speaker 5: that's not the case. So make sure that you know
Speaker 5: what you're getting into.
Speaker 4: Yes, all incredibly valid and even as someone works part time,
Speaker 4: I see all the validity and what you said.
Speaker 5: Right, well, this has been best of both worlds. Sarah's
Speaker 5: interviewing doctor Barbara Thompson about leadership in medicine. We will
Speaker 5: be back next week with more on making work and
Speaker 5: life fit together.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
Speaker 4: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can.
Speaker 2: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has
Speaker 2: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us
Speaker 2: next time for more on making work and life work together.