1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 3: And this is Sarah Hartunger. 5 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 4: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 6 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 4: On the side, we are two working parents who love 7 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 4: our careers and our families. 8 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 5: Welcome to best of both worlds. 9 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 10 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 2: and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping 11 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 2: out long term career goals. We want you to get 12 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 2: the most out of life. 13 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,639 Speaker 5: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This 14 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 5: episode is airing in mid December of twenty twenty three. 15 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 5: Sarah is going to be interviewing doctor Vanessa Carroll, who 16 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 5: is the CMO of the Mary Bridge Children's Hospital in 17 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 5: Washington State. I'm very excited to hear from her about 18 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 5: women in medicine and what it takes to be a 19 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 5: leader in a hospital system. So, Sarah, maybe you could 20 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 5: tell us a little bit about it. 21 00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't want to give any spoilers. It was 22 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 4: a really fun conversation, but doctor Carroll has four children 23 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 4: and has gone through various different phases of your career, 24 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 4: so it was interesting to learn about how leadership can 25 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 4: be incorporated at different phases and how different kinds of 26 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 4: experiences can kind of come together to give you a new, 27 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 4: unique expertise that really kind of helps you truly fulfill 28 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 4: a leadership vision later on. So that was really fun 29 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 4: to learn about. 30 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, because for people who are considering leadership roles, and 31 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 5: I know we have a ton of listeners who are, 32 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 5: it's maybe not something that you have to like come 33 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 5: right out of the gate and say this is what 34 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 5: I want to do. Like, I mean, there are different 35 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 5: paths into leadership over the course of your career, correct. 36 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 4: Yes, And I like to think about how you kind 37 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 4: of get various nuggets along the way that might be 38 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 4: really useful someday as you kind of helped to lead 39 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 4: the next generation of people who might be doing something 40 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 4: that you were doing, you know, boots on the ground 41 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 4: previous to that. So I guess it was just interesting 42 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 4: to hear how the different phases of her journey came together, 43 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 4: and again how experience and says that you might not 44 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 4: know could be contributing to a leadership track could actually 45 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 4: come in very handy. So those were my biggest takeaways 46 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 4: from the conversation and I really enjoyed talking to her. 47 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, and she also shares, you know, the things we 48 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 5: always love, like a day in the life. I mean, 49 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 5: what does it look like to be a day in 50 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 5: the life of somebody with four kids and a big job. 51 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 5: I know, we always love hearing about that, right. 52 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 4: Yes, day in the life is not going anywhere. We 53 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 4: cannot get enough. And she's got both kids in college 54 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,679 Speaker 4: and kids who are a little bit younger, so it's 55 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 4: kind of fun to explore what that phase of life 56 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 4: might look like in a leadership type role. 57 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 5: Exactly how we're all about the big age spread at 58 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 5: least I am over here, well at one in college, 59 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 5: one in elementary school. Yes, that is exactly how things 60 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 5: will go around here. Well, let's go ahead and hear 61 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 5: from doctor Vanessa Carroll. 62 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 4: Then, all right, well, I am so excited to welcome 63 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 4: doctor Vanessa Carroll to this podcast. Now, we had recorded 64 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 4: the intro prior to this interview, and we thought we 65 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 4: were going to have the illustrious doctor Barbara Time, who 66 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 4: we are going to talk about. She is amazing, But 67 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 4: we ended up having to do a little swap due 68 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 4: to some technical difficulties. And when I started talking to 69 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 4: doctor Carroll. I realized that she and doctor Thompson have 70 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 4: a ton in common, have faced a lot of the 71 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 4: same challenges, and I'm so excited to welcome you to 72 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 4: the show. 73 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 74 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 6: I really appreciate this opportunity, and yes, I'm sorry doctor 75 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 6: Thompson couldn't join, but I will do my best to 76 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 6: represent the CMO dynamic duo. 77 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: As I'd like to call her, because she is amazing. Oh. 78 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 4: I love the fact that there are two of you 79 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 4: and that you have a CMO CEO dynamic duo at 80 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 4: your healthcare. 81 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 3: System that is like totally amazing. 82 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 4: So you are currently serving as the chief medical officer 83 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 4: at the mary Bridge Children's Hospital. I'm guessing that's maybe 84 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 4: not where you thought your career was going to end up. 85 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 4: Give me the whole give me your career journey. When 86 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 4: you thought about potentially becoming a doctor, did you ever 87 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 4: see this angle of leaders upcoming? 88 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 3: And like, how did things evolve? 89 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 6: So what a great question and a wonderful, exciting journey 90 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 6: that I'm excited to kind of share because it wasn't 91 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 6: quite as planned out, but that's kind of how life 92 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 6: works out. I think some of the best opportunities kind 93 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 6: of just life presents itself. So I am born and 94 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 6: raised in New Orleans, Louisiana, trained in the Deep South. 95 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 6: I started my career with a health system known as Oshner, 96 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 6: and it was kind of in the wake of Katrina, 97 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 6: so as Oshner was evolving as an organization who now 98 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 6: is quite present in that area, so was Pediatric hospital Medicine. 99 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: So it was an incredible opportunity. 100 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 6: And why I like pediatric hospital medicine is it had 101 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 6: the acuity at that point, it didn't have the fellowship requirement, 102 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 6: And essentially it was I wanted a family, and I 103 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 6: really wanted to be able to balance that time with 104 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 6: my children and also feel challenged personally professional. 105 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: And it was a perfect. 106 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 6: Marriage, so to say, in the sense that I got 107 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 6: to do two things I love. 108 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: Now. Was it easy. Absolutely not. 109 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 6: I won't even pretend to, you know, make it sound 110 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 6: like it was this glorious easy thing. 111 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: It required work, but having a great support system. 112 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 6: You know, my mom actually ended up watching my children 113 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 6: for a lot of their childhood. We did have nanny's, 114 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 6: you know, because there is call and responsibilities, and my 115 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 6: husband does work, so trying to balance multiple careers was challenging. 116 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 6: But it was wonderful, and then I kind of realized 117 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 6: after about a decade, this is awesome, But what next? 118 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 6: My kids were growing up, responsibilities were changing a little bit. 119 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 6: So I ended up going to work for United Healthcare 120 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 6: in order to learn about utilization management, because I said, 121 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 6: the business of medicine, it's really something that I think 122 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 6: as a physician I kind of lacked. And I would 123 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 6: have case managers come and say, oh, that doesn't meet 124 00:05:58,080 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 6: and I'm. 125 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: Like, doesn't meet what? That person sick? What are you 126 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: talking about? They need to be here and they're like, no, no, 127 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: that's not what it means. 128 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 6: And I was like, Okay, well I need to understand 129 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 6: more because at this point I had other physicians and 130 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 6: I really felt like I wasn't representing their needs well 131 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 6: because the complexity wasn't being identified as probably as it 132 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 6: should have been. So I said, all right, this is 133 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,239 Speaker 6: my chance to go behind the curtain and meet OZ. 134 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:27,119 Speaker 6: So let me go ahead and understand how this utilization works. 135 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 6: And it was an exceptional experience, and I think it 136 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 6: was a first time in my career that I realized 137 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 6: there are multiple perspectives, right, We're all coming together for 138 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 6: patients and families. We're just doing it differently. And again 139 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 6: another amazing experience, and said, wow, this is I get it. 140 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 6: This is a component of healthcare. But I wasn't ready 141 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 6: to I think go down that pathway, which obviously is 142 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 6: it's a great one for people who choose it. It's exciting, 143 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 6: you're learning a ton, It's just a different arm of 144 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 6: kind of medicine. So then I said, all right, I've 145 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 6: already done kind of the academic I've done. Now mutilization, 146 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 6: I need to get a community perspective because I don't 147 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:05,559 Speaker 6: I feel like I'm missing the other side of the coin. 148 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 6: So I ended up starting at Coutney Health in Cordelaine, Idaho, 149 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 6: which is probably one of the most beautiful places on 150 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 6: the on the earth, So if you have not been, 151 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 6: I highly encourage it. Exquisite place, incredible people, just an 152 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 6: enormous opportunity, and I really got to see health care 153 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 6: from a different lens as someone building out an in 154 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 6: patient pediatric unit there. And I can tell you when 155 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 6: I actually met with the CEO, because I was like, why, 156 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 6: you know, community hospitals, while they might care for a 157 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 6: lot of patients, why would they want to invest in 158 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 6: a you know in patient pediatric unit when a lot 159 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 6: of healthcare is shifting towards more centralized approaches, and the 160 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 6: CEO when I asked him that very pointed question before 161 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 6: I moved my family twenty five hundred miles away, which 162 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 6: now included four children, two dogs, a guinea pig, and 163 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 6: you know, a houseful of things, I said, help me 164 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:02,679 Speaker 6: to understand the why, and he said, well, it's because 165 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 6: it's the right thing to do. And I said, all right, 166 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 6: that's who I want to be a part of. So 167 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 6: I was there for about five years, just had an 168 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 6: incredible opportunity, and I will say a community setting allows 169 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 6: for I think, more career advancement, more opportunities as far 170 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 6: as exposure, and it was really kind of an exponential 171 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 6: path for my career, and in turn then ended up 172 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 6: have the opportunity to go from a clinical division director 173 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 6: where I oversaw hospital surgical and some neuroscientists, so more 174 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 6: adult focus, but still had my peeds there that I 175 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 6: had started with, and then made it to mary Bridge 176 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 6: Children's Hospital where I recognize pediatrics is my passion. Kids 177 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 6: are amazing, You're serving the future today. 178 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: Really it's been a great marriage. So it's been a journey. 179 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 3: Though, that is amazing. 180 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 4: I have so many questions, and I also feel like 181 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 4: we need to clarify a few things for our listeners, 182 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 4: because our listener vase is certainly not I mean, we 183 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 4: have plenty of health care providers, but there are all 184 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 4: sorts of people doing all sorts of things listening. So 185 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 4: just when she said community was a great opportunity for advancement, 186 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 4: I think you're referring to versus perhaps like traditional academic medicine. 187 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: Correct exactly exactly. Academia is amazing, and it's so rich 188 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 1: and it's just such a. 189 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 6: It's just an incredible experience. Community is just very different, 190 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 6: and I think if you're in one perspective, you have 191 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 6: this assumption that it's very similar. And I will tell 192 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 6: you it, outside of the medicine, it's very different, different resources, 193 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 6: different stakeholders, different engagement. So both wonderful in their own 194 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 6: right though, and absolutely essential to healthcare across the country. 195 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 3: Yes, very very true. 196 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 4: So I also want to start a little tangential here, 197 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 4: but how old were your kids with each of those moves, 198 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 4: and how did you handle that and what did the 199 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 4: conversations look like? Because you said your husband works as well, 200 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 4: so like weighing the risk benefit of moving the family 201 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 4: primarily for your role. 202 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: So what a great question. 203 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 6: So I'll start by saying, when I was in med school, 204 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 6: there was this conversation that if you want to have children, 205 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 6: do it in your fourth year. It's perfect timing. You know, 206 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 6: it's an easier rotation. So my husband and I did that. 207 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 6: The part they forgot to tell me was that when 208 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 6: you're an intern and this is before duty hours, congratulations, 209 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 6: you've got a four or five month old. So that 210 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 6: was maybe not the opportunity I had hoped for. 211 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: But my daughter's amazing. 212 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 6: I mean, they are incredible, just really has brought so 213 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,119 Speaker 6: much joy and knowledge to my you know, just experience, 214 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 6: both as a mom and as a physician. So totally grateful. 215 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 6: Along that line, the next one came during a resident 216 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 6: which fun, very very fun, definitely add some complexity to it, 217 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 6: But on this one I ended up taking a little 218 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 6: time off, and the type a personality in me felt 219 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 6: a little bad about doing it because I was like, oh, 220 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 6: I'm slacking, But in reality that time with my daughter Daisy, 221 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 6: I would never trigued. I mean it was this is 222 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 6: a marathon, not a sprint. So if you can capture 223 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 6: those moments, don't feel guilty about it, you know. But 224 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 6: if you can't do it, I understand. I mean their 225 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 6: bills to be paid, their responsibilities, but if you're given 226 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 6: that option, that would be ideal. My two sons that 227 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 6: came later, I was staffed so very very different. I 228 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 6: will tell you it gets easier as you get older. 229 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 6: So just something to keep in mind. And they've been incredible. 230 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 6: And what's funny is that three of the four want 231 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 6: to be physicians. So obviously the lifestyle hasn't been too terrible, 232 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 6: but you're right, the moves have been challenging because for kids, 233 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 6: that's where their friends are, that's where you know, their 234 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 6: relationships are, that's where their experiences are, and everyone has 235 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 6: these expectations about where it's things are going to go 236 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 6: for them. So when there's a change, there's a little 237 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 6: bit of that removal of that opportunity, and that becomes 238 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:08,599 Speaker 6: hard no matter. 239 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: How old you are. Young old. 240 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 6: So I can tell you on this last move, it 241 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 6: was especially hard on my teenage son who's in high school, 242 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 6: and we really had to work through that and explain 243 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 6: the why. Lots of conversations, but he's doing great, and 244 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 6: it's just you know, I like I explain to him 245 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 6: it's another opportunity for him to learn how nimble he 246 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 6: can be, how he can reinvent himself, and just how 247 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 6: amazing this country is because the experiences are so diverse. 248 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 3: Oh that's awesome. 249 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, And in some ways it's true that it gets 250 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 4: like harder the older your kids get, but what a 251 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 4: cool experience for them to really experience two different places 252 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 4: and like you know, understand maybe two different cultures as 253 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 4: they move forward in adulthood. So I can see that 254 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 4: that would be kind of like a mix bag. Okay, 255 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 4: so now we're in the present. We've kind of taken 256 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 4: you through training one baby in med school, one baby 257 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 4: in residency, and then two after the fact. And you 258 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 4: did say that it gets easier, but then your body's 259 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 4: also older, so like you know, it's like a seesaw and. 260 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 3: You have to train one for the other. So that's 261 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 3: super interesting. 262 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 4: I had one in fellowship I won, and one in 263 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 4: residency but couldn't get pregnant because probably because residency, and 264 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 4: then had the other two as an attending. And I 265 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 4: do agree with you that the resources available to you 266 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 4: when you are earning an actual paycheck. My husband is 267 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 4: medical as well, so our paychecks coincided. It did make 268 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 4: things a lot easier, but it was sweet the first 269 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 4: time too. All Right, Sorry, that was my digression. So 270 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 4: we're gonna actually take a very quick break and be 271 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 4: back with some more questions in a moment. Okay, we 272 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 4: are back, and now we're kind of up in the present, 273 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 4: as we said, And tell me about how is this 274 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 4: You are now in like a sea sweet position. You 275 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 4: have moved up through the ranks, You've done kind of 276 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 4: different things along the way that were really interesting. What 277 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 4: has been the hardest part about that for you? And 278 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 4: maybe talk about how if there are commonalities that you 279 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 4: and doctor Thompson, your colleague, have kind of faced together. 280 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 4: As you said, you're like a dynamic duo as women 281 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 4: in leadership at your organization. 282 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 6: Well, you know what I really appreciate most about Multiicare 283 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 6: and Mary Bridge recognizing the need for physician leadership. And 284 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 6: that's where doctor Thompson and I really are an incredible 285 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 6: partner because of the fact that she has that commitment 286 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 6: to the outpatient side of healthcare, while I have that 287 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 6: commitment to the inpatient side of healthcare. And while they're similar, 288 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 6: they're very different. And having that be acknowledged and recognized 289 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 6: by an organization that says no, no, this is so 290 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 6: important to have physician leaders really deep in the operations, 291 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 6: everything in the strategy, in the you know, basically culture, 292 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 6: in the fine answers, I mean, you name it. That 293 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 6: is really a testament because a lot of organizations have 294 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 6: just one CMO and I can tell you if you're 295 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 6: covering any kind of network or spectrum of services, whether 296 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 6: that's clinics, urgent cares, off campus ds, micro hospitals, hospitals, 297 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 6: it's really hard because you're going to be spread a 298 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 6: little bit thin, so the depth of I think what 299 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 6: you can assist with or support is probably different. So 300 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 6: having doctor Thompson to really own funnel her knowledge as 301 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 6: a pedzender chronologist who really knows what makes clinics high functioning, 302 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 6: and she's a machine when it comes to epic and 303 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 6: smart phrases. I mean, like, oh my gosh, her efficiency. 304 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 6: So having her in that space is incredible because then 305 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 6: I have this hospital medicine side that between the two 306 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 6: of us, though we come together on some of the 307 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 6: specialties like surgery where they cross both sides. GI cross 308 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 6: both sides, So how can we support them in each 309 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 6: environment with clarity but also advocate for what their needs 310 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 6: are from that medical lens. So it's really exciting, and 311 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,479 Speaker 6: I have to say I applaud the organization for recognizing 312 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 6: it because there aren't very many places. I mean, cmos 313 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:15,359 Speaker 6: are rather expensive and they require support, whether that's executive 314 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 6: assistance or project managers. And when you start to double that, 315 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 6: that can be a significant lift. So really, but I 316 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 6: have to tell you, if anyone's listening has ever thought 317 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 6: about it, a C suite, highly recommend because the deliverables, 318 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 6: the outcomes, just your physician culture is so much richer. 319 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 3: Oh, I believe it. 320 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 4: I mean the fact that you're able to kind of 321 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 4: have influence on so many people that are working with 322 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 4: you to achieve aims and really influence the culture and 323 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 4: the fact that you have two women doing that, to 324 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 4: me is extra special. 325 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 3: Has that come into play? 326 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 4: Have you mentored women who are really really happy to 327 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 4: see someone who knows what they are going through above them? 328 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 4: And also, I guess the flip side, have you come 329 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 4: into any challenges when you are faced with maybe with 330 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 4: a boardroom full of mostly men, how has that gone 331 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 4: for you? 332 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 6: You know, I think that's such an important call out, 333 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 6: and I think it's really about recognizing you want to 334 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 6: have people bring out the best, whether you're assigned female 335 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 6: at birth, assigned male at birth, and really just harness 336 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 6: their strengths and really promote them and figure out what 337 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 6: brings you joy, because we all have our own individual joy. 338 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: And I think having that understanding that. 339 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 6: Especially in today's age, both moms and dads and aunts, uncles, 340 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 6: they want to be engaged and they want to have time, 341 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 6: and I think really being thoughtful of that work life 342 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 6: integration and meeting people where they are because I'll be honest, 343 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 6: I've recognized some physicians that I'm like, oh my gosh, 344 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 6: you would be the most incredible leader, and they're like, 345 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 6: you know what, I really appreciate that, but I'm not 346 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 6: there right now. You know, my kids are young. I 347 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 6: want to be present. I'm not ready to take that on. 348 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 6: And I think that self awareness is incredibly important because 349 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 6: if you love what you do, it's not work. But 350 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 6: if you feel like it's an extra pressure, I think 351 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 6: it can be really hard. So whether that's a mom 352 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 6: or a dad, I think my goal as a CMO 353 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 6: is to recognize people's strengths, harness them in the capacity 354 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 6: or to the level that they're able to lean into, 355 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 6: and really kind of just recognize how special we all are, 356 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 6: but also really acknowledged diversity is essential. Like, if we 357 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 6: have a bunch of people think in the same way, 358 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 6: we're not going to really move the needle. We need, 359 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 6: you know, women, we need men, we need young, we 360 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 6: need older, we need experience, we need brand new to 361 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 6: the market. So I think I'm more thoughtful about not 362 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 6: necessarily women or men. It's everybody coming together and really 363 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 6: just kind of supporting where the individual is. 364 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 4: And if you run into someone who you think would 365 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 4: have great leadership potential and say, well, right now, I 366 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 4: have kids, Like, I guess I'm curious because like part 367 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 4: of me wants to push back on that. I mean, 368 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 4: there are some leadership roles which in some ways afford 369 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 4: you more flexibility, especially at kind of like the upper end, 370 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 4: and someone may count themselves out and need encouragement to 371 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 4: be like no, like we're in a culture where you know, 372 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 4: you still get time off or we cover for each 373 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 4: other or what like how do you handle that when 374 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 4: you see someone promising but kind of not wanting to 375 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 4: accept responsibility, maybe not not based on facts. 376 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 6: It's such a hard conversation. I'm not gonna lie because 377 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 6: you want to be respectful and not aggressive, because you 378 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 6: also don't want to be in a leadership role that 379 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 6: you are using your position to force a decision, because 380 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 6: that is a huge You've missed that moment. So it's 381 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 6: really about having I think the relationship and having the 382 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 6: conversation and saying, well, tell me what success looks like 383 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 6: to you. 384 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: How can I. 385 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 6: Support where you want to go? And I again, like 386 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 6: we talked about healthcare, it's a marathon, not a sprint. 387 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 6: Your career has different chapters of the book, and how 388 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 6: can I set you up to be ready for that 389 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 6: next chapter? So I feel like if I can start 390 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 6: to provide little nuggets and knowledge and little projects or 391 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 6: opportunities that they are specifically engaged in, then that starts 392 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 6: to snowball and there starts to be more engagement. But 393 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 6: You're right, the timelines are a little bit sometimes challenging 394 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 6: because I'm like, oh my gosh, you could be such 395 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 6: an incredible asset. Just really advocate for your patients, advocate 396 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 6: for your department. Allow this opportunity within our system. But 397 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 6: then I have to pause and realize, but that's. 398 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: Not what they want right now. 399 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 6: And I would rather have them love what they do 400 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 6: now and then love what they do in the future 401 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 6: instead of you potentially run the risk of burning them 402 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 6: out and having that sour experience of what leadership is like. 403 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 6: So I think it's really just listening. And as a 404 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 6: good leader, I think I can't stress that enough. The 405 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 6: leaders I've had have all listened really carefully to what 406 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 6: I had said and then help me on my journey. 407 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 6: So I would love to be able to one day 408 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 6: say I was a you know, a good leader and 409 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 6: did that for others. 410 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 4: And I love the idea as you said, like even 411 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 4: if someone's not ready at one given time, that doesn't 412 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 4: mean that in two years that same person might be 413 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 4: absolutely ready. And like to plant the seeds that like, hey, 414 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 4: even if this isn't what you want right now, you 415 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 4: still have options. You still could grow in these different ways. 416 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 4: So I like the idea of an open door. 417 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 6: Well, and like you said, every experience is a learning opportunity, 418 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 6: even if you have some challenges or it's perceived as oh, 419 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 6: that project failed or whatever you want to call it, 420 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, we come away with such knowledge and 421 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 6: you learn to you know, the PDSA plan, do study act. 422 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 6: It's just you were like, well, I'm not going to 423 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 6: do that again. So even if it's not the experience 424 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 6: you would hope for, you can pivot and figure out 425 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 6: on your next opportunity what are you personally and professionally 426 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 6: going to do different? So I think there's a win 427 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 6: no matter what. It's just recognizing does that person feel 428 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 6: the same way as you do? And I think that's 429 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 6: some of that's just experienced. 430 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 3: No, that totally makes sense. 431 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,360 Speaker 4: All right, Well, how about physician and healthcare provider and 432 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 4: we can even extend this beyond that, But like professional 433 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 4: with a family wellness, that is a hot topic, especially 434 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 4: in the physician space right now. I feel like I 435 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 4: see a new statistic every day related to burnout or 436 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 4: related to job dissatisfaction. I think I got an email 437 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 4: in my inbox yesterday that was from health Grades and 438 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 4: it was like seven reasons doctors are leaving medicine, and 439 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 4: I a lot of them had some value to it, 440 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 4: like too much time spent on the EMR things like that. 441 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 4: So how do you think about these topics, What do 442 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 4: you think some of the answers are and maybe what 443 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 4: are some of the specific challenge you've seen facing mothers 444 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 4: in particular, since that is a lot of our audience 445 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 4: based women who have careers, who have families and really 446 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 4: want to enjoy both. 447 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 6: So that's one of those things that keeps me up 448 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,959 Speaker 6: at night. I'm not gonna lie because especially whether it's healthcare, 449 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 6: whether it's law, whether it's engineering, whether it's anything on 450 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 6: the spectrum. I mean, work is a huge responsibility and 451 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 6: I know we all wake up and we want to 452 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 6: do our very best. If you don't love what you do, 453 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 6: it is challenging and feeling that you're not being successful 454 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 6: in your job nor being successful in your family. I 455 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 6: do think plays a really big role in how people 456 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 6: just burn out, and specifically in referencing healthcare, we know 457 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 6: we're going to be over one hundred thousand physicians down 458 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 6: by twenty thirty four. I mean that's an insane amount 459 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 6: of money. So it's almost like we have to stop 460 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 6: the bleeding. We have to be able to understand how 461 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 6: do we restore that joy because I mean you look 462 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 6: at a med student, I mean they're so excited they're 463 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 6: so elated. They're just enthusiastic to take on this world 464 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 6: of healthcare, and somewhere along the path, like you said, 465 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 6: life kind of catches up and it's a little bit 466 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 6: a little bit draining at times. So the physician wellness 467 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 6: or whatever professional wellness is, really it has to be 468 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 6: a focus or our workforce won't be sustainable. And I 469 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 6: think the ways we can do that is acknowledging where 470 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 6: people are giving them space to have influence, because again, 471 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 6: burnout isn't specifically only because of the tasks, or only 472 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 6: because of finance, or only because of leadership exchanges. It's 473 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 6: all of them put together, and it's feeling valued. So 474 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 6: how do we help people to realize they are so valued? 475 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 6: And that's also being respectful of work life integration. And 476 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 6: I can tell you my work in my life has 477 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 6: almost been like a sign wave, you know what I mean, 478 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 6: Like there are times where I'm doing really well, and 479 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 6: then there's times where I'm just fumbling the bag miserably, 480 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 6: and I think it's okay to get I would love 481 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 6: more and more, especially mothers who are still trying to 482 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 6: have this transition between being one hundred percent, you know, 483 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 6: the family's support to being one hundred percent the career person. 484 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 6: I think that's a really hard bridge because so many 485 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 6: of our dads are staying home and managing families and 486 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 6: really trying to find what brings them joy in different 487 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 6: ways that are different than what has been the traditional norm. 488 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 6: And I think that is so wonderful because we can 489 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 6: all find our happiness. How do we do it together 490 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 6: and integrating that balance, and it's really going to be 491 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 6: having a great support system. I think you can't do 492 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 6: it alone. You need to have some resources to kind 493 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 6: of allow you to recognize you need a break, either 494 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 6: from work or from the family support. So how do 495 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 6: we do that, How do we navigate that? How do 496 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 6: we give that space? Because to your point, wellness is 497 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 6: essential and if we are always feeling like we're not 498 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 6: where we want to be, that is going to lead 499 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 6: to more challenges. And that's a hard way to live 500 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 6: when you've come in with such a light and a 501 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 6: brightness and you don't want to see it blown out 502 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 6: in any capacity. So I think having that awareness that 503 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 6: work hours are going to look different, responsibilities are going 504 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 6: to look different, leadership is going to look different. How 505 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 6: do we make this a sustainable journey instead of a 506 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 6: fast sprint that just leaves everyone kind of exhausted at 507 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,719 Speaker 6: the end. So I think this is something we really 508 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 6: need to spend a lot of time on and figure 509 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 6: out how do we rekindle that spark that love and 510 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 6: also recognize if you're really happy at home, you're going 511 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 6: to be probably pretty happy at work, and how do 512 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 6: we make that symbiotic energy flow. 513 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 4: Ooh, that's an interesting concept, the idea that the happy 514 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 4: you are at one place, the happy you or you 515 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 4: probably are in another. I hadn't really thought about that, 516 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 4: but I can think of some examples kind of on 517 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 4: either direction for that of people that I know and. 518 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 3: Have worked with. 519 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 4: And that's that's a really interesting concept, I guess, because 520 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 4: we're all the same person. So someone that's happy at 521 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 4: work and feels sustained goes home and is refreshed and 522 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 4: then can enjoy their family more. 523 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 3: So that's super interesting. What about you? 524 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 4: What do you like to do for fun? What recharges you? 525 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 4: What do you do for your own wellness? 526 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 6: So my recharger is absolutely my family. I mean, I 527 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 6: have four amazing children, and like I said, they teach 528 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 6: me more every day than any book or magazine I 529 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 6: might read because I think they're just so authentic, and 530 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 6: when they're sharing their experiences or challenges, it's so true 531 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,479 Speaker 6: to the hard. So any opportunity I can meet them 532 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 6: where they are, I am there. So I have now 533 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 6: become an anime enthusiast because that is where some of 534 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 6: them were. So I enjoy watching anime with my children 535 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 6: when that's one of their objectives. If I have my 536 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 6: choice of what activities we're going to do as a family, 537 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 6: I love snowscan, I love water scan. 538 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: I'm a huge runner. 539 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 6: I also really just enjoy like a good book, you 540 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 6: know what I mean, being able just to sit down 541 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 6: and immerse myself, either in fiction or kind of even 542 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 6: self improvement, like I'm a big Brene Brown fan, and 543 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 6: just really appreciate every time I come away, I feel 544 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 6: like I've learned something professionally and I've learned something personally. 545 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 6: So I cannot stress how important it is I think 546 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 6: for people to acknowledge they need that recharge space because 547 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 6: if you just keep running at one hundred percent on 548 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,479 Speaker 6: either venture, either that's your personal or your professional life, 549 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 6: you just kind of burn out. So that goes back 550 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 6: to that wellness conversation is I hope people find that balance, 551 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 6: because there is a balance, and like I said, if 552 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 6: someone finds it, let me know, I'm still trying to 553 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 6: find my own. But uh, I think that's the fun 554 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 6: of it all though. It appreciates those moments when you 555 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 6: do have that downtime and you cherish the people you're with. 556 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:25,959 Speaker 3: I love that. 557 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 4: Can you take us through a quick example day in 558 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 4: the life. Our listeners love this, They love logistics. I 559 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 4: don't know if your kids are still young enough to 560 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 4: need any form of childcare, but if so, definitely include that. 561 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 4: Like we've had lots of interesting learning about different no 562 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 4: pair setups and all that kind of stuff. So take 563 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 4: us through a day in the life. Although I'm sure 564 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 4: as a leader they're probably all different. 565 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 6: Well, I have two daughters that are in college, so 566 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 6: when they come home, the day in the life gets 567 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 6: far more exciting. But I still have my two sons. 568 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 6: So when I wake up, I actually have three dogs 569 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 6: and we have an axe a lottle, which if you 570 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 6: don't know what an ax lottle is, google it most 571 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 6: adorable creature you'll ever see. So get up, I feed 572 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 6: our animals. I then get myself ready tell my boys, 573 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 6: you know, it's time to wake up, because even though 574 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 6: there's teenagers and they have multiple alarms, I'm sure most 575 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 6: of you realize sometimes those alarms are not effective. So 576 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 6: I get them going. And my husband's a great partner 577 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 6: because we kind of tag team on this when he 578 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 6: actually works from home, so we're super blessed in that 579 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 6: respect that only one of us have a commute. And 580 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 6: then I'll obviously get myself ready head into work using 581 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 6: my work starts with meetings, and I know that's kind 582 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 6: of one of the transitions in healthcare as you go 583 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 6: into leadership, you lose some of that patient facing time. 584 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 6: So it's a little bit of a balance and a 585 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 6: little bit of a challenge because I can tell you, like, 586 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 6: for instance, Monday, I was clinical in the hospital, so 587 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 6: my day was actually getting up and then see patients 588 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 6: for about a ten hour shift and then catching up 589 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 6: on literally one hundred emails that had kind of progressed 590 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 6: over the day. So that's probably not the best day 591 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 6: in the life to highlight, but that's a real day. 592 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: Most of the. 593 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 6: Time, it's going to be meetings, which, like I said, 594 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 6: it's not so much about a specific item, it's a 595 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 6: lot of exciting ones about what is our strategy in 596 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 6: the urgent care space, what is our plan for outreach, 597 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 6: what is our plan for medical education? 598 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: You know. 599 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 6: So it's a lot of really high level but it 600 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 6: really fills your cup because it's this hope of what 601 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 6: is to come if I'm not on service all round 602 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 6: in the hospital and really get a chance to kind 603 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,239 Speaker 6: of see the people that are doing the work, you know, 604 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 6: how is their day going, thank them for what they're doing, 605 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 6: because this is, like you said, it can be a 606 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 6: grind at times, and recognizing that we all have our 607 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 6: own lives going on in the background. Just acknowledging you 608 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 6: are so important and I can't thank you enough. 609 00:31:58,320 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: For what you're doing. 610 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 6: I think it's just that validation that many of us need. 611 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 6: And then I'll go through and I'll probably get a 612 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 6: couple of text messages from my children telling me something 613 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 6: super exciting that derailed the day a little bit. And 614 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 6: then I'll keep going with some meetings and come home 615 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 6: and see my sons. 616 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: They'll tell me about their day. 617 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 6: We'll kind of eat dinner, and I think having that 618 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 6: time around the table, if people can do it, I know, 619 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 6: not everybody's able to, but if you can really focus 620 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 6: in and have those real conversations, that time is invaluable. 621 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 6: And then my boys kind of scatter off and do 622 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 6: their homework or talk to friends, while my husband and 623 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 6: I kind of take that time just to kind of 624 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 6: connect and you know, kind of debrief on the day 625 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 6: and also prep for what's coming on the next day. 626 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 6: So every day is different. But I really feel fortunate 627 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 6: to be in a leadership role while also having children 628 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 6: who are now reaching adulthood and realize that they're doing 629 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 6: pretty well, because in those moments, I'm not gonna lie 630 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 6: as a working mom, it's like, oh my goodness, you know, 631 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 6: how is this going to turn out? And I just 632 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 6: want to tell your leaders and your listeners and your 633 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 6: friends and your colleagues it will be okay. Just stay strong, 634 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 6: realize it's okay to ask for help. More importantly, please 635 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 6: applaud one another for a great job doing what they're doing, 636 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 6: and recognize that we're all in this together, and just 637 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 6: be kind. 638 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 3: That is awesome. That is so awesome. 639 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 4: We're about to close, but one last thing, and I 640 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 4: know you're not a regular listener, but we do always 641 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 4: have a love of the week, So I will go first. 642 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 4: I'm going to share mine in your honor, and mine 643 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 4: is my Patagonia puffy down sweater that I actually wore 644 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 4: to soccer practice last night because it was like fifty 645 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,959 Speaker 4: five degrees and I was freezing and that's cold to us. 646 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 4: So I was inspired when I was in Seattle to 647 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 4: buy one and now I just wear it every time 648 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 4: that I go anywhere slightly temperate. 649 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 3: So that is my love of the week. What is 650 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 3: your love of the week? 651 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 6: Oh man, Well, so I'm right by Seattle and it 652 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 6: has been raining. I'm not even lying for like multiple days. 653 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 6: So my love of the week is my Columbia raincoat 654 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 6: right now because it is definitely worth every penny it 655 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 6: is based on because my gosh, it is just wet. 656 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 6: But I appreciate, like you said, being able to show 657 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 6: up as well as I can each morning. 658 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: So that's my love. 659 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 3: Awesome. 660 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 4: So, yes, Reindeer is our theme for the week and 661 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 4: cold weather. Well, thank you so much, doctor Carol for 662 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 4: coming on. This has been such a pleasure. I feel 663 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 4: very inspired. 664 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: Ah, thank you. 665 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 6: I appreciate your time and thanks for all you do 666 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 6: and spreading this support because it is a team effort. 667 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 5: Well that was fascinating. Great to hear about leadership roles 668 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 5: and medicine and what we can learn about that. So 669 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 5: today's question is in one version of when We Get 670 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 5: a Lot. So this person writes in that she is 671 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 5: interested in working part time, was debating a shift to 672 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 5: an eighty percent schedule. She says, I would love to 673 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 5: just be off on Fridays and work a four day week. However, 674 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 5: Laura has said she doesn't recommend it, so can you 675 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 5: share it your thoughts? So first let's get to Sarah's thought, 676 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 5: because Sarah actually has worked an eighty percent schedule, So 677 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 5: we'll hear from the trenches on that. 678 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 4: I do currently work a sixty percent schedule. 679 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 5: Six eighty percent. And there's a difference. 680 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 4: Oh, I have done eighty, I have done ninety. 681 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: I have done a. 682 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 5: Lot of ninety seven point three? Why not? 683 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, ninety was like getting a day off every 684 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 4: two weeks to podcast specifically, so it kind of worked. 685 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 4: But sixty percent's been great for me. And here are 686 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 4: my criteria for when I think you can do a 687 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 4: part time job effectively. You have very clear production objectives 688 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 4: and you have very specific coverage for days. You're not 689 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 4: going to be there, I think if either one of 690 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 4: those is nebulous, don't do it. Yeah, So like examples 691 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 4: that work. My example, I see patients Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. 692 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 4: There's no expectation that I go to my inbox or 693 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 4: do clinical work on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I'm lucky to 694 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 4: work in a field where there's generally not any outpatient 695 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 4: type emergencies that need attention before the next day, so 696 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 4: this works well. And then if you're a shift worker, 697 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 4: like if you work in the er, you can take 698 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 4: a specific percentage of shifts and work part time pretty 699 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 4: well because when you're on, you're on, and when. 700 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 3: You're off, you're off. 701 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 4: If you are certain times of law, and maybe especially 702 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 4: if you shared a position so that you were truly 703 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 4: not on call on days that they were working like 704 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 4: you were, people knew they should only contact both of you, 705 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 4: and you wann't to touch your inbox on a Tuesday. 706 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 4: If you don't work on Tuesday, and you have like 707 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,479 Speaker 4: a lower billable hours goal that's proportional, then that might work. 708 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 4: But when things get nebulous or there isn't coverage, I 709 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 4: think you can very quickly get in trouble. And that 710 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 4: is where Laura will come in with the rest of 711 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:05,280 Speaker 4: this answer. 712 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean again, in those situations where it's 713 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 5: very clear that you are on or you are off, 714 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 5: then it can work. I would say, however, that there 715 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 5: are probably a great many people in full time roles 716 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 5: who are only working eighty percent of the time because 717 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 5: they are coasting the rest of the time. And I 718 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 5: understand that, and it may not be a very attractive proposition, 719 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 5: but the truth is, like, what people do in a 720 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 5: lot of jobs is incredibly nebulous, and so how are 721 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 5: you judging what eighty percent of that amount of work is. 722 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 5: My guess is that in many corporate roles, you try 723 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 5: to set something like I want to be off on Fridays, 724 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,839 Speaker 5: but they're like, well, we have your biggest clients coming 725 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 5: to meet on Friday. You can't be off on Friday. 726 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 5: You're like, okay, fine, I'll do that. Or you know, 727 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 5: your colleague is like, look, look, we have something that's happening. 728 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 5: You got to dial in for this meeting on Friday. 729 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 5: Or you're checking your email because because you are, because 730 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 5: like you know, stuff's coming in and if you don't 731 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 5: see it, you're going to be behind on it, and 732 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 5: so you wind up working somebody else's equivalent of one 733 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 5: hundred percent, only you are definitely taking a pay cut, 734 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 5: right like you are taking a pay cut. If you 735 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 5: don't know exactly how many hours full time is, it 736 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 5: is very hard to determine what eighty percent is going 737 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 5: to be. And so you know, some places are like, oh, well, 738 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 5: we all work sixty hours a week here, and they don't. 739 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 5: But you're like, oh, well, I've got to work eighty percent. 740 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 5: Then if I want to work like a forty five 741 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 5: hour week or WHATND No, No, don't do that because 742 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 5: it's gonna like they're only working fifty as well, and 743 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 5: they're just claiming to work sixty and so you're going 744 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 5: to work just as much and you're gonna get paid less. 745 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 5: So I think you're better off being in a situation 746 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 5: where you have some control over your time and flexibility, 747 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 5: because it is often not the exact number of hours worked, 748 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 5: it is how much control you have over them. So 749 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 5: if you're like, hey, you know, actually i'd like to 750 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 5: go hang out in my kids class on Tuesday morning 751 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 5: this week, and you can make that happen, then you 752 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 5: don't need a day off. You just need to like 753 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 5: not take a call before eleven o'clock on Tuesday morning, 754 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 5: and if you have work you need to do, you 755 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 5: finish it up Tuesday night or something like that. The 756 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 5: problem of trying to have an exact day off in 757 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 5: nebulous sorts of jobs is like, well, maybe all the 758 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 5: stuff you want to do in your personal life isn't 759 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 5: always happening on Friday. Like you know, you want to 760 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 5: go on Tuesday, but then you're gonna have to take 761 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 5: time off for that, but the Friday is already you know. 762 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 5: It's just you want a job where you have flexibility 763 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 5: and autonomy, and then it's fine to just work full 764 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 5: time and arrange your hours around life as it is. 765 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 5: So anyway, that is my soapbox on it, and I'm 766 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 5: sure plenty of people have had it work well because 767 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 5: they have very good boundaries. But I think a lot 768 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 5: of people are in situations where there are less clear boundaries, 769 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 5: and so going part time will not necessarily help you 770 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 5: achieve the work life balance that you're going for, but 771 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 5: it will make you earn less. I would also say, 772 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 5: you know what are you using that time for? By 773 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 5: the way, too, because if you are going to do 774 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 5: a lot of people like, well, we're so behind on 775 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 5: the housework. The house is a mess, so I need 776 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 5: to work four days a week. It's like, okay, so 777 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 5: you're trading off. You're likely hire paying work to do 778 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 5: this unpaid in your case, you know work, Like why 779 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,320 Speaker 5: is that that's not you know you can hire somebody 780 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 5: else to do that? Like why don't you work full 781 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 5: time and pay a housekeeper versus having this economic transaction 782 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 5: that just doesn't make sense of like not being paid 783 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 5: or higher rate to do unpaid labor that somebody else 784 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 5: could do. Now, if you're going to spend it with 785 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,760 Speaker 5: your kids, awesome, Like that's a different matter, right because 786 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 5: that is maybe something that you want to invest more 787 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 5: time in. Or if you have a creative project that 788 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 5: you are doing and you know for sure you're going 789 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 5: to get that day off to be in that creative headspace. Again, 790 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,800 Speaker 5: that can be a great situation, but for many people 791 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 5: that's not the case. So make sure that you know 792 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 5: what you're getting into. 793 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 4: Yes, all incredibly valid and even as someone works part time, 794 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 4: I see all the validity and what you said. 795 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 5: Right, well, this has been best of both worlds. Sarah's 796 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 5: interviewing doctor Barbara Thompson about leadership in medicine. We will 797 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 5: be back next week with more on making work and 798 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 5: life fit together. 799 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. 800 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 4: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com 801 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 4: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can. 802 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 2: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has 803 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,839 Speaker 2: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us 804 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,240 Speaker 2: next time for more on making work and life work together.