WEBVTT - The Art and Science of Gathering 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:33.476 Pushkin. Our gathering shape, the way we live, our gathering shape, 0:00:33.476 --> 0:00:36.196 the way we assume what is normal, like what it 0:00:36.316 --> 0:00:39.956 is we mark what is worth talking about, how we 0:00:39.996 --> 0:00:43.436 actually begin to think about how we spend our collective 0:00:43.436 --> 0:00:47.436 time together. That's Priya Parker. She's an expert in group 0:00:47.476 --> 0:00:52.316 dialogue and conflict resolution. Interestingly, Priya has taken her expertise 0:00:52.356 --> 0:00:54.676 in these fields and applied it to the way we 0:00:54.716 --> 0:00:58.276 think about coming together with others, or she likes to say, 0:00:58.476 --> 0:01:01.796 how we gather. In her book The Art of Gathering, 0:01:02.036 --> 0:01:05.316 Priya encourages us to focus on what actually matters when 0:01:05.316 --> 0:01:09.116 we get together. What I wanted to do is detail 0:01:09.236 --> 0:01:13.996 hangele gathering from the stuff of gathering, from food, from hosting. 0:01:14.476 --> 0:01:17.476 Even this Martha Stewart archetype that like, the way to 0:01:17.556 --> 0:01:20.516 host well is to prepare a crudities three days in advance, 0:01:20.836 --> 0:01:23.316 to be an expert in food, to be an expert 0:01:23.356 --> 0:01:26.116 in floral, to be an expert in aesthetics, and all 0:01:26.156 --> 0:01:30.516 of those things create beauty and meaning. But they're the hygiene, right, 0:01:30.516 --> 0:01:32.516 it's not actually what do you do with these people 0:01:35.556 --> 0:01:38.676 on today's show? How we can stop obsessing about the 0:01:38.756 --> 0:01:43.356 stuff of weddings, dinner, parties, and celebrations, and instead remember 0:01:43.516 --> 0:01:48.316 why we're coming together in the first place. I'm Maya 0:01:48.356 --> 0:01:51.356 Shunker and this is a slight change of plants, a 0:01:51.436 --> 0:01:53.796 show about who we are and who we become in 0:01:53.836 --> 0:02:02.836 the face of a big change. If you're anything like me, 0:02:02.996 --> 0:02:05.796 when you first think of a gathering, logistics are top 0:02:05.836 --> 0:02:09.716 of mind, details like location or what should beyond the menu. 0:02:10.556 --> 0:02:13.276 But since I'm not a detail oriented person and I'm 0:02:13.476 --> 0:02:18.876 terrible at logistics, organizing gatherings stresses me out. And this 0:02:18.956 --> 0:02:21.476 is pretty unfortunate because those of you who listen to 0:02:21.516 --> 0:02:24.476 the show know how much I love connecting with people. 0:02:24.996 --> 0:02:28.836 It's my favorite thing to do. Prea's work has changed 0:02:28.836 --> 0:02:31.876 the game for me. She's helped me rethink why and 0:02:31.916 --> 0:02:34.916 how we should get together. I think one thing that 0:02:34.956 --> 0:02:37.676 really drew me to your story, Prea, and to your 0:02:37.716 --> 0:02:41.156 work is that you approach the art of gathering from 0:02:41.236 --> 0:02:44.276 such a fresh perspective. Right It's not from the vantage 0:02:44.276 --> 0:02:48.516 point of an event planner or an organizer, but instead 0:02:48.596 --> 0:02:53.116 as an expert in group dialogue and conflict resolution. And 0:02:53.156 --> 0:02:55.876 so I'm wondering what inspired you to work in this 0:02:55.996 --> 0:03:00.076 area in the first place. I think, perhaps like most 0:03:00.076 --> 0:03:03.116 of us, so much of my work very much stem 0:03:03.236 --> 0:03:06.916 from how I was raised and what I bumped into 0:03:08.276 --> 0:03:11.956 as a child, then as a young person. I'm by racial. 0:03:12.116 --> 0:03:15.716 My mother is Indian, an Indian immigrant, and my father 0:03:15.796 --> 0:03:19.036 is white American, And for the first ten years of 0:03:19.076 --> 0:03:22.716 their life and their marriage together, we lived in a 0:03:22.836 --> 0:03:25.676 number of different countries. I was born in Zimbabwe, and 0:03:25.756 --> 0:03:30.196 we moved to the Maldives and to Indonesia, and eventually 0:03:30.196 --> 0:03:33.476 moved back to the States. And within a year of 0:03:33.476 --> 0:03:38.156 moving to Virginia, they separated. And when they did, everyone 0:03:38.396 --> 0:03:43.156 myself included, was shocked because they never fought. And so 0:03:43.276 --> 0:03:46.796 that was the first signal to me, like, oh, all 0:03:46.916 --> 0:03:50.876 is not what it might appear to be. All is 0:03:50.916 --> 0:03:55.516 not necessarily always well, and that conflict isn't always observable, 0:03:55.796 --> 0:03:58.516 that there's many codes that are happening within a relationship. 0:03:59.396 --> 0:04:03.036 But then within two years they remarried other people, and 0:04:03.276 --> 0:04:06.396 I would leave my mother and stepfather's house and it 0:04:06.636 --> 0:04:11.676 was and still is an in British kind of globally 0:04:11.756 --> 0:04:17.876 minded New age, meditating progressive household, and I would, I mean, 0:04:17.916 --> 0:04:19.756 I would come downstairs in that home, and the first 0:04:19.796 --> 0:04:21.596 question that I would be asked in the morning, is like, 0:04:21.756 --> 0:04:23.716 tell us about your dream, like, tell us about your 0:04:23.796 --> 0:04:26.636 dream last night, like literally like, and our conversations would 0:04:26.636 --> 0:04:30.196 be about dream interpretation. And then I would travel to 0:04:30.236 --> 0:04:32.596 my father and stepmother's house. And it was and still 0:04:32.716 --> 0:04:39.716 is a white American Evangelical Christian conservative Republican church, going 0:04:40.076 --> 0:04:43.836 often twice a week, dogs in the house, meat eating, 0:04:44.036 --> 0:04:47.876 kind of like all Americana. And I became a contact 0:04:47.916 --> 0:04:52.516 resolution facilitator in college in part, I think because I 0:04:52.596 --> 0:04:56.436 lived in these two households in which how they began 0:04:56.516 --> 0:04:59.956 their meals was completely different, how they celebrated or marked 0:04:59.956 --> 0:05:05.556 indication was completely different. What they considered obvious was completely different. 0:05:06.596 --> 0:05:10.356 You know, you had had extensive experience in the conflict 0:05:10.356 --> 0:05:14.796 negotiation space in facilitating group dialogue. Was there a defining 0:05:14.836 --> 0:05:18.556 moment when you realized this work really meaningfully intersects with 0:05:18.596 --> 0:05:20.916 the way that we think about gatherings, because I don't 0:05:20.916 --> 0:05:24.836 think everyone would have connected those dots. Such a good question. 0:05:24.916 --> 0:05:29.196 You're incredibly insightful, and I actually don't think i've shared 0:05:29.196 --> 0:05:31.716 this before. I knew that what I was trained to 0:05:31.756 --> 0:05:35.556 do as a group facilitator, how to connect people quickly. 0:05:36.276 --> 0:05:40.236 How to get people off their scripts? Right, if you're 0:05:40.276 --> 0:05:43.436 coming together, how do you prime these people? And how 0:05:43.476 --> 0:05:45.476 what do you do in a room to get them 0:05:45.516 --> 0:05:49.076 to not say what their pre prepared stump speech was, 0:05:49.556 --> 0:05:51.676 but kind of shift them into a lane of conversation 0:05:51.716 --> 0:05:55.036 where they're surprised themselves by what they're sharing or revealing. 0:05:55.436 --> 0:05:57.556 How do you create the conditions where people are open 0:05:57.636 --> 0:06:01.756 to one of my teachers, Keith Johnstone, calls being altered 0:06:01.996 --> 0:06:04.596 by each other? And I knew that so much of 0:06:04.636 --> 0:06:07.596 what kind of outside of this field of facilitation were 0:06:07.596 --> 0:06:11.556 taught around groups and gathering tends to be about stuff, right. 0:06:11.596 --> 0:06:13.396 It's almost like the proxy in the bookstore or the 0:06:13.436 --> 0:06:15.956 library is cookbooks. Right, if you want to if you're 0:06:15.956 --> 0:06:19.236 going to gather, here's a cookbook. And I what I 0:06:19.276 --> 0:06:24.636 wanted to do is detangle gathering from the stuff of gathering, 0:06:24.676 --> 0:06:28.636 from food from hosting the Martha Stewart archetype that like, 0:06:28.676 --> 0:06:31.236 the way to host well is to put crewetaise, you know, 0:06:31.276 --> 0:06:33.436 prepare your crew totaise three days in advance. And this 0:06:33.516 --> 0:06:36.516 is there's nothing wrong with that, but it becomes so 0:06:36.716 --> 0:06:41.036 gelled into this is the only form of gathering and 0:06:41.196 --> 0:06:43.676 to be an expert in food, to be an expert 0:06:43.676 --> 0:06:46.356 in floral, to be an expert in aesthetics, and all 0:06:46.396 --> 0:06:50.756 of those things create beauty and meaning. But they're the hygiene, right, 0:06:50.756 --> 0:06:52.756 it's not actually what do you do with these people? 0:06:53.316 --> 0:06:55.196 And what I wanted to do is kind of write 0:06:55.236 --> 0:06:56.756 a book for the rest of us. And you know, 0:06:56.836 --> 0:06:59.916 I'm not a good cook. I you know, I don't 0:06:59.956 --> 0:07:02.156 have a fancy house. I you know, I wanted to 0:07:02.436 --> 0:07:06.836 demystify and kind of bring what facilitators are taught to 0:07:06.876 --> 0:07:14.836 do into every day democratic, normal gathering spaces, whatever normal 0:07:14.876 --> 0:07:18.476 means to you in your context or community. And basically 0:07:18.676 --> 0:07:22.316 it's like that ratatui. Like anyone can cook, anyone can gather, 0:07:22.756 --> 0:07:26.316 And I wanted to demystify how anybody can create a 0:07:26.396 --> 0:07:31.996 meaningful gathering for their people in a way that is transformative, 0:07:32.236 --> 0:07:35.996 memorable and isn't a waste of time. Yeah, and when 0:07:36.036 --> 0:07:39.876 you approach it with a human first perspective, it really 0:07:39.916 --> 0:07:42.396 does feel accessible for so many of us. I mean, 0:07:42.476 --> 0:07:47.076 I am the worst at logistics and planning. I am 0:07:47.116 --> 0:07:51.076 not a detail oriented person. Organizing things is like my 0:07:51.116 --> 0:07:53.676 worst nightmare. I've yet to enter that phase of adulting, 0:07:54.116 --> 0:07:57.916 and so it felt like you were just speaking my language, 0:07:58.236 --> 0:08:01.796 because I felt like you were making gathering something that 0:08:01.956 --> 0:08:06.476 felt so inaccessible to me as defined by society at large, 0:08:06.716 --> 0:08:08.476 because I am so bad at that sort of stuff, 0:08:09.156 --> 0:08:12.436 something that maybe I could thrive and excel at. That 0:08:12.476 --> 0:08:16.356 makes me so happy. So let's dig into this very 0:08:17.156 --> 0:08:20.596 valuable wisdom that you have, which is we focus so 0:08:20.676 --> 0:08:24.236 much on the logistics of gatherings rather than the human component. Yeah, 0:08:24.316 --> 0:08:29.116 we're just forgetting. We're losing touch with the primary goal 0:08:29.476 --> 0:08:33.156 of gathering. And so you say that one of the 0:08:33.196 --> 0:08:35.636 first things we should do is ask ourselves a very 0:08:35.676 --> 0:08:40.236 foundational question, which is the why question. Why are we 0:08:40.476 --> 0:08:44.876 really gathering? Do you mind saying more about that? The 0:08:44.876 --> 0:08:48.636 biggest mistake we make when we gather is we assume 0:08:48.716 --> 0:08:53.316 that the purpose is obvious and shared. Oh I know 0:08:53.316 --> 0:08:55.716 what a wedding is, and so does everyone else. Oh 0:08:55.756 --> 0:08:57.996 I know what a board meeting is. Oh I know 0:08:58.036 --> 0:09:02.676 what a dinner party is. And then because we assume 0:09:02.756 --> 0:09:06.476 we know what it's for, we skip too quickly to 0:09:06.596 --> 0:09:12.356 form right long eye, white dress or red dress, going 0:09:12.396 --> 0:09:16.436 in a circle seven times round a fire or board meeting. 0:09:16.516 --> 0:09:22.036 You know, one long brown table, twelve white men, and 0:09:22.156 --> 0:09:25.036 instead when we pause and actually ask, Okay, why are 0:09:25.036 --> 0:09:26.716 we doing this? What is the purpose? What is the 0:09:26.716 --> 0:09:30.276 purpose of this of my birthday party or my birthday 0:09:30.316 --> 0:09:31.876 not even birthday party? What is the purpose of my 0:09:31.916 --> 0:09:34.716 birthday this year? What do I most want to mark? 0:09:34.996 --> 0:09:36.996 What do I most need in my life? Do I 0:09:37.036 --> 0:09:39.956 want to reconnect with a friends who've actually lost touch 0:09:39.956 --> 0:09:41.876 with and as I feel like I'm kind of starting 0:09:41.916 --> 0:09:44.716 to lose my way, I actually want to double down? 0:09:44.796 --> 0:09:47.116 And what would it look like if I actually hosted 0:09:47.156 --> 0:09:49.316 a party for just the friends who I knew before 0:09:49.356 --> 0:09:52.436 I was twenty and we all share or talk about 0:09:52.516 --> 0:09:54.996 or do something we used to do together and then 0:09:55.476 --> 0:09:58.836 reflect on who we've become and what our regrets are 0:09:58.836 --> 0:10:01.276 and how do I find my way again? Or is 0:10:01.356 --> 0:10:03.596 like the deepest need of my life in this moment 0:10:03.756 --> 0:10:06.876 to reconnect with a sense of adventure? And actually, what 0:10:06.916 --> 0:10:08.556 I want to do for my birthday this year is 0:10:09.956 --> 0:10:12.316 like go to the fishing docks and watch the fisher 0:10:12.356 --> 0:10:15.196 people pull in their fish at five am and invite 0:10:15.316 --> 0:10:17.996 my friends who would only say yes to that crazy 0:10:18.116 --> 0:10:21.636 invitation to come with me. And so often because we 0:10:21.716 --> 0:10:26.076 don't pause to actually ask why our imagination gets incredibly 0:10:26.236 --> 0:10:29.036 stuck and we focus on perfecting the forms that we 0:10:29.076 --> 0:10:31.916 already know. And so when you pause and actually ask 0:10:32.036 --> 0:10:34.236 why am I doing this? What is the need? It 0:10:34.276 --> 0:10:36.956 actually opens up an entire world of how we could 0:10:36.996 --> 0:10:40.436 actually spend our time together. But it's also incredibly relevant 0:10:40.476 --> 0:10:43.876 and moving because you're then inviting specific people that makes 0:10:43.916 --> 0:10:46.716 sense for that need, that feel like they're of use 0:10:47.116 --> 0:10:49.276 rather than being used. Right, It's not like how many 0:10:49.276 --> 0:10:53.156 people can I get at this party? Oh gosh, it's like, oh, 0:10:53.156 --> 0:10:55.436 who are the people in my life who give me courage? 0:10:55.956 --> 0:10:58.876 What if this year I only invited them to come 0:10:58.876 --> 0:11:03.516 together and bring me like poems or objects that give 0:11:03.556 --> 0:11:05.316 them courage because I just need a little bit of 0:11:05.356 --> 0:11:08.596 courage blown my way this year. Yeah. But because we're 0:11:08.636 --> 0:11:13.076 like okay, candles and pointy hats, we're actually going on 0:11:13.156 --> 0:11:19.676 autopilot and perpetuating forms that no longer necessarily make any sense. Yeah. 0:11:19.516 --> 0:11:22.436 You say that a common mistake is to confuse having 0:11:22.516 --> 0:11:25.756 a category with having a purpose, right, Yes, that if 0:11:25.796 --> 0:11:28.556 you identify the category, Oh it's a birthday party, it's 0:11:28.556 --> 0:11:32.716 a funeral, it's a baby shower, that naturally lends itself 0:11:32.756 --> 0:11:35.396 to a purpose, but it's actually a very distinct process 0:11:35.916 --> 0:11:38.156 to define the purpose of the gathering. And there was 0:11:38.156 --> 0:11:41.716 one anecdote that really stuck out to me, and it 0:11:41.796 --> 0:11:45.516 was around a woman's baby shower. And the whole time 0:11:45.516 --> 0:11:47.676 I'm reading this passage, I'm like, you go, girl, like 0:11:47.716 --> 0:11:50.116 she was so awesome in the way that she was 0:11:50.196 --> 0:11:54.876 thinking about the true goals she had for this baby shower. 0:11:54.916 --> 0:11:58.436 Do you mind sharing that story? Sure? I mean, I 0:11:58.996 --> 0:12:02.276 love the example of a baby shower in part because 0:12:02.276 --> 0:12:05.916 people have such strong feelings about them either way. So 0:12:05.956 --> 0:12:08.036 I've talked about them a lot because we feel like, oh, 0:12:08.036 --> 0:12:09.956 there's only one way to do a shower. I don't 0:12:09.956 --> 0:12:12.676 want to have a pin a diaper on a baby thing, 0:12:12.676 --> 0:12:15.316 like why am I doing this? It's often because we're 0:12:15.316 --> 0:12:17.476 so stuck to form. It's either like I don't want 0:12:17.476 --> 0:12:20.076 a baby shower or like I'm going to go through 0:12:20.116 --> 0:12:22.036 this thing and it's kind of I find it kind 0:12:22.036 --> 0:12:25.236 of silly. But my community wants to bless me, and 0:12:25.236 --> 0:12:27.276 this is the form that we do in our community 0:12:27.596 --> 0:12:30.516 instead to pause and actually ask what does my actual 0:12:30.556 --> 0:12:33.636 need right now? I'll give a couple of examples, so 0:12:33.796 --> 0:12:36.796 one is I was advising as coaching a woman on 0:12:36.796 --> 0:12:39.916 her baby shower. She had two different parts of her 0:12:39.956 --> 0:12:42.556 of this kind of baby shower. One is, she was 0:12:42.716 --> 0:12:46.276 terrified of labor. And she invited six of her friends 0:12:46.716 --> 0:12:50.876 and each of them brought a bead of a different 0:12:50.876 --> 0:12:53.916 color to put together into a necklace, and each bead 0:12:53.996 --> 0:12:58.556 basically representative value that she already has. They know her 0:12:58.596 --> 0:13:01.716 to have, right, your sense of bravery, your sense of awe, 0:13:01.836 --> 0:13:05.796 your sense of humor, your sense of wonder. And as 0:13:05.836 --> 0:13:08.836 her friends, as her mentors, they've seen this quality that 0:13:08.916 --> 0:13:11.876 is already within her, and they were inviting her to 0:13:11.916 --> 0:13:14.756 tap into something that was already within her to know 0:13:14.796 --> 0:13:17.036 that she could do this. And then they put that 0:13:17.076 --> 0:13:19.796 into a necklace for her to wear or at least 0:13:19.796 --> 0:13:21.836 take with her to the hospital. And then there's a 0:13:21.836 --> 0:13:23.916 second part of the ritual in which in the evening 0:13:24.356 --> 0:13:28.076 she and her husband invited friends, men and women to 0:13:28.236 --> 0:13:31.676 come have dinner together and to share stories of different 0:13:31.676 --> 0:13:34.356 elements of the things that they loved about how they 0:13:34.356 --> 0:13:37.276 were raised. And part of the act of that that 0:13:37.356 --> 0:13:39.436 was so radical, I mean, it's so simple, was that 0:13:39.476 --> 0:13:44.356 it was inviting both men and women, people who have 0:13:44.556 --> 0:13:48.356 complex relationships with their parents, like all of us, right 0:13:48.796 --> 0:13:51.996 to share, to come into conversation and to reflect together. 0:13:52.236 --> 0:13:54.516 They're shifting the culture. Who should be part of the 0:13:54.516 --> 0:13:58.236 conversations around parenting just the mothers? No, not if you 0:13:58.276 --> 0:14:01.516 want to coequal parenting, right, who should be invited early on, 0:14:01.676 --> 0:14:04.916 well before you give birth to think about, well, how 0:14:04.916 --> 0:14:07.236 are we going to structure these rules? And so that 0:14:07.356 --> 0:14:10.676 dinner not just was helpful to them, but it began 0:14:10.756 --> 0:14:14.756 to shift the assumption of all of their roles around 0:14:14.836 --> 0:14:19.316 how they want to begin to raise their children. Yeah, 0:14:19.436 --> 0:14:25.156 I absolutely love this story for many reasons. I think 0:14:25.156 --> 0:14:28.876 one of them is, you know, this family together is 0:14:28.916 --> 0:14:33.396 figuring out why it is that they want or need 0:14:33.476 --> 0:14:38.156 to have a baby shower and in the mother articulating 0:14:38.796 --> 0:14:44.396 I'm terrified of labor. It helps reduce stigma around the 0:14:44.436 --> 0:14:48.276 pregnancy experience absolutely where you know, women are told in society, oh, 0:14:48.316 --> 0:14:50.716 it's supposed to be this magical time where you're glowing 0:14:50.836 --> 0:14:54.956 and you can't wait to birth new life, and that 0:14:54.996 --> 0:14:58.356 does not reflect the reality of so many women's experience 0:14:58.556 --> 0:15:00.796 going through pregnancy and giving birth and the kind of 0:15:01.036 --> 0:15:04.116 anxiety and alienation that can accompany every part of that process, 0:15:04.156 --> 0:15:07.676 and so I love that in defining the purpose and 0:15:07.756 --> 0:15:11.876 meaning of her gathering fully, it had a broader societal 0:15:12.356 --> 0:15:16.356 purpose to it as well. Absolutely, So to summarize, we 0:15:16.396 --> 0:15:19.116 want to ask ourselves that why question, why are we 0:15:19.156 --> 0:15:21.916 really gathering? And we want to commit to this bold, 0:15:22.236 --> 0:15:26.276 sharp purpose? And I want to know what are just 0:15:26.356 --> 0:15:29.636 a couple of examples of purpose statements that you think 0:15:29.636 --> 0:15:32.036 are really good, just to give our listeners a sense 0:15:32.076 --> 0:15:35.196 of the kind of specificity that you have in mind 0:15:35.196 --> 0:15:38.236 when you're talking about purpose. That's such a great question, 0:15:40.236 --> 0:15:43.116 you know. Taking a simple example of a pool party, okay, right, 0:15:43.196 --> 0:15:45.796 neighbors is like, let's let's have a pool party. So 0:15:46.036 --> 0:15:52.836 an unhelpful purpose is let's have our neighbors swim. Right, 0:15:52.916 --> 0:15:55.836 let's get in the pool, right, that's an activity. A 0:15:55.956 --> 0:16:00.196 good purpose is let's toast a pool party in order 0:16:00.276 --> 0:16:07.356 to remind and help shape our children so that they 0:16:07.516 --> 0:16:12.996 know that neighbors aren't scary. A helpful purpose helps you 0:16:13.036 --> 0:16:15.156 make decisions at the deepest essence, What is it that 0:16:15.156 --> 0:16:18.316 you actually need in this moment? Well, it's been a 0:16:18.356 --> 0:16:22.436 long time since we've actually brought people together. And I 0:16:22.476 --> 0:16:26.196 grew up in a neighborhood in which children ran between households, 0:16:26.196 --> 0:16:28.596 and I want to see if we could create that 0:16:28.636 --> 0:16:31.876 for our children. And I really deeply want them to 0:16:31.996 --> 0:16:34.236 know their neighbors and feel like this is a place 0:16:34.236 --> 0:16:37.396 where everybody's looking out for each other. All of a sudden, 0:16:37.756 --> 0:16:39.756 you have your marching orders. Okay, so we're going to 0:16:39.796 --> 0:16:42.476 invite our neighbors, not our friends. We're going to invite 0:16:42.756 --> 0:16:44.956 the people within three walking blocks, or we're going to 0:16:44.996 --> 0:16:48.156 invite people within our apartment building, or it gives you 0:16:48.196 --> 0:16:51.556 an orientation, It helps you understand why are we doing this, 0:16:51.676 --> 0:16:55.316 and how do we begin to think about who to invite? Yeah, 0:16:55.356 --> 0:16:59.116 and this speaks to something you've already mentioned, which is 0:16:59.156 --> 0:17:02.316 the next step is to figure out who. And what 0:17:02.436 --> 0:17:05.036 I found so interesting that you share in your work 0:17:05.116 --> 0:17:08.516 is that a guest list is as much about who 0:17:08.556 --> 0:17:11.676 you don't invite as it is about who you do invite. 0:17:11.996 --> 0:17:14.316 That was so interesting and it really flipped it around 0:17:14.316 --> 0:17:16.836 for me. And the reason you say this is that 0:17:16.876 --> 0:17:20.956 we can tend towards over inclusion, right to avoid hurt feelings, 0:17:21.356 --> 0:17:24.356 to pay people back for times they've invited us to something. 0:17:24.916 --> 0:17:28.636 But you caution caution against this because you say that 0:17:28.676 --> 0:17:32.476 way of thinking can really jeopardize the quality of the gathering. 0:17:33.596 --> 0:17:35.556 You know, you may have been raised the way I 0:17:35.716 --> 0:17:38.436 heard this quite often, like the more the merrier, that's 0:17:38.476 --> 0:17:41.396 always one more seat at our table. And there's there's 0:17:41.396 --> 0:17:43.756 a spirit of generosity in that, and I and I 0:17:43.796 --> 0:17:46.716 think gathering is an act of generosity. But in part 0:17:46.756 --> 0:17:49.476 because we don't ask what the need is first, We 0:17:49.516 --> 0:17:51.396 actually don't know how to exclude people or why to 0:17:51.396 --> 0:17:53.876 exclude people. We have no rationale for excluding people, right, 0:17:53.876 --> 0:17:56.556 we back into it in our work context. You show 0:17:56.636 --> 0:17:58.476 up to a meeting, maybe it's a TBD hold on 0:17:58.476 --> 0:18:00.876 your calendar. You show up and it's a you know, 0:18:00.916 --> 0:18:04.716 a product design meeting, and you enter the zoom room 0:18:04.796 --> 0:18:08.596 or you enter into the conference room and you know, 0:18:08.596 --> 0:18:13.196 you look around, it's like, why is legal here? It 0:18:13.276 --> 0:18:16.396 changes the whole tenor of the meeting. Yeah, exactly right. 0:18:16.516 --> 0:18:18.876 But we're always doing this, we're kind of backing into it. 0:18:18.876 --> 0:18:20.796 You almost like what is this thing for? Based on 0:18:20.916 --> 0:18:25.196 who's in the room. And when we don't first ask 0:18:25.396 --> 0:18:27.116 what is the need? Why are we actually here? We 0:18:27.196 --> 0:18:30.836 over include and it's not rocket science. Like often if 0:18:30.836 --> 0:18:32.676 it's four people or six people, eight people. All of 0:18:32.716 --> 0:18:35.636 us are like this. We calculate what we share based 0:18:35.636 --> 0:18:37.796 on the person who we least know in the room, 0:18:37.796 --> 0:18:39.556 not with the person with whom we have the best 0:18:39.556 --> 0:18:42.716 relationship with. It's a different party based on who's there. 0:18:42.956 --> 0:18:46.076 It's a different meaning, it's a different wedding, and so 0:18:46.236 --> 0:18:51.036 who you invite actually shifts the conversation. Speaking of weddings, 0:18:51.156 --> 0:18:53.276 when we're back from the break, Priya and I take 0:18:53.316 --> 0:18:56.636 the time machine back to my wedding day. Because weddings 0:18:56.676 --> 0:18:59.356 can be especially thorny. They have a lot to teach 0:18:59.476 --> 0:19:02.716 us about the art and science of gathering. We'll be 0:19:02.756 --> 0:19:04.676 back in a moment with a slight change of plan. 0:19:19.076 --> 0:19:21.756 You know, it's interesting, I'm thinking back to my wedding 0:19:21.836 --> 0:19:25.036 planning process and I'm just remembering that Jimmy and I 0:19:25.156 --> 0:19:27.756 and I don't think we're alone in this. Part of 0:19:27.796 --> 0:19:30.596 the guest planning process was literally trying to take account 0:19:31.116 --> 0:19:34.036 of all the people who had invited us to their weddings. Right, 0:19:34.596 --> 0:19:37.476 you really, you really don't want to hurt people's feelings. 0:19:37.516 --> 0:19:40.276 You want to create a sense that there's reciprocity. By 0:19:40.316 --> 0:19:41.596 the way, if you're listening to this and we're at 0:19:41.596 --> 0:19:43.716 my wedding. You were on the top list. You're not 0:19:43.796 --> 0:19:47.996 on this, You're not on this back, You're you're all in. Okay, 0:19:47.996 --> 0:19:50.876 just to be clear, No, But more seriously, I think 0:19:51.116 --> 0:19:54.396 you talk in the book about how Obama's aunt told 0:19:54.476 --> 0:19:58.396 him if everyone's family, no one is family, and you've 0:19:58.436 --> 0:20:01.356 kind of extended that to this domain as well, which is, 0:20:01.396 --> 0:20:05.476 if everyone is invited, no one's invited. You capture the sentiment. Well, 0:20:05.476 --> 0:20:08.916 you have a phrase called the kindness of exclusion, and 0:20:09.116 --> 0:20:11.436 and I like, help me out here, prey, because I 0:20:11.436 --> 0:20:13.036 do feel like if I were to planet wedding today, 0:20:13.036 --> 0:20:15.316 i'd probably go through the same process because I don't 0:20:15.316 --> 0:20:17.356 want to upset anybody. And so I want you to 0:20:17.356 --> 0:20:19.956 help me build courage in this moment to think differently 0:20:20.436 --> 0:20:22.356 about who is on that guest list and who's not 0:20:22.396 --> 0:20:27.276 on the guest list. Gathering is an act of line drawing, 0:20:28.756 --> 0:20:31.516 and we don't like to think of it that way, 0:20:31.596 --> 0:20:34.636 but it is. It's an act of persuasion. I have 0:20:34.676 --> 0:20:38.236 a vision for a specific time, in a specific place, 0:20:38.916 --> 0:20:41.396 to move your body in your mind into that space 0:20:41.836 --> 0:20:44.996 right with these other people, like won't you come on in? 0:20:45.996 --> 0:20:51.356 And by definition like sometimes the constraint is the living 0:20:51.436 --> 0:20:53.756 room or the porch, right, But every gathering is an 0:20:53.756 --> 0:20:56.716 act of line drawing what is the need and given that, 0:20:57.076 --> 0:20:59.676 who is in and who is out for that temporary 0:20:59.756 --> 0:21:03.396 moment in time, And there's certain gatherings where who is 0:21:03.396 --> 0:21:06.916 in and who is out becomes incredibly symbolic. Right. So, Yeah, 0:21:07.796 --> 0:21:12.036 some of the gatherings were talking about weddings, baby showers, 0:21:12.396 --> 0:21:17.956 those end up becoming also kind of like litmus tests, right, 0:21:18.036 --> 0:21:22.556 a friendship, and so it's just starting to deeply become 0:21:22.596 --> 0:21:25.916 intentional about why are you actually doing this? So, so 0:21:26.236 --> 0:21:29.036 part of what's complex about modern life is most of 0:21:29.116 --> 0:21:34.836 us are negotiating multiple value systems at the same time. Yes, 0:21:35.436 --> 0:21:40.196 well said, and so in a wedding there are multiple 0:21:40.236 --> 0:21:44.516 obligations that actually come from different value systems. So one 0:21:44.636 --> 0:21:49.276 value system is the collective value system of reciprocity, and 0:21:49.396 --> 0:21:51.356 some of that is a collective reciprocity. You and I 0:21:51.396 --> 0:21:54.516 both have Indian backgrounds, like many Indian weddings, and my 0:21:54.556 --> 0:21:58.196 cousins eies are like literally seven hundred eight hundred people. Yeah, 0:21:58.236 --> 0:22:01.476 my parents wedding head over a thousand people, Yeah, exactly, 0:22:01.516 --> 0:22:03.676 And we look at that from the West, at least 0:22:03.676 --> 0:22:05.876 from the US. Often it's like, how do you even 0:22:05.876 --> 0:22:09.116 know all those people? But that's actually a very specific 0:22:09.316 --> 0:22:13.476 individualistic value system in which the assumption is you or 0:22:13.516 --> 0:22:15.876 your parents have an individual link and maybe even a 0:22:15.916 --> 0:22:19.076 meaningful relationship to everyone there. That is just not true. Yeah, 0:22:19.116 --> 0:22:22.356 it's a value system in which it's actually multiple generations 0:22:22.356 --> 0:22:24.956 of reciprocity and who gave who and loan and who 0:22:24.996 --> 0:22:27.716 gave who When one person's cousin was sick and they 0:22:27.716 --> 0:22:30.316 slept on their living room floor thirty five years ago, 0:22:30.396 --> 0:22:33.756 then they right. It's a different cultural system. And so 0:22:33.876 --> 0:22:38.436 in a wedding, the planning process becomes this incredibly powerful 0:22:38.476 --> 0:22:41.956 set of negotiations and conversations between the couple and often 0:22:41.956 --> 0:22:44.156 between the couple and the parents. And so one of 0:22:44.196 --> 0:22:47.156 the reasons weddings are so chaotic or feel, you know, 0:22:47.516 --> 0:22:50.756 emotionally incredibly difficult, is because it's a lot of cutting, 0:22:50.796 --> 0:22:53.236 and it's a lot of line drawing, and often we're 0:22:53.276 --> 0:22:56.556 sorting ourselves out. Do I fundamentally want to invite everybody 0:22:56.596 --> 0:22:59.236 else who invited me to their weddings? And we find 0:22:59.316 --> 0:23:01.156 we'll just make it twenty more people. It'll be a 0:23:01.236 --> 0:23:03.796 larger wedding than we thought. But I want to be 0:23:03.916 --> 0:23:06.956 part of communities of reciprocity, and that's what we've landed on. 0:23:07.116 --> 0:23:10.676 And that's okay, that's a legitim at purpose. The core 0:23:10.756 --> 0:23:12.956 purpose of your wedding might actually be to honor the 0:23:12.996 --> 0:23:17.276 generation behind you. That's okay, right, I'm not like that's 0:23:17.316 --> 0:23:20.876 why this is actually a freeing construct is because you 0:23:20.996 --> 0:23:23.556 decide what the need is. The problem is going in 0:23:23.676 --> 0:23:26.956 blindly and kind of backing into stuff and basically not 0:23:27.076 --> 0:23:30.876 choosing your life. Yeah, and I think it's freeing. And 0:23:31.316 --> 0:23:35.036 it's also not a one time decision either when it 0:23:35.036 --> 0:23:38.276