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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Our gathering shape, the way we live, our gathering shape,

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Speaker 1: the way we assume what is normal, like what it

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Speaker 1: is we mark what is worth talking about, how we

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Speaker 1: actually begin to think about how we spend our collective

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Speaker 1: time together. That's Priya Parker. She's an expert in group

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Speaker 1: dialogue and conflict resolution. Interestingly, Priya has taken her expertise

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Speaker 1: in these fields and applied it to the way we

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Speaker 1: think about coming together with others, or she likes to say,

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Speaker 1: how we gather. In her book The Art of Gathering,

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Speaker 1: Priya encourages us to focus on what actually matters when

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Speaker 1: we get together. What I wanted to do is detail

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Speaker 1: hangele gathering from the stuff of gathering, from food, from hosting.

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Speaker 1: Even this Martha Stewart archetype that like, the way to

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Speaker 1: host well is to prepare a crudities three days in advance,

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Speaker 1: to be an expert in food, to be an expert

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Speaker 1: in floral, to be an expert in aesthetics, and all

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Speaker 1: of those things create beauty and meaning. But they're the hygiene, right,

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Speaker 1: it's not actually what do you do with these people

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Speaker 1: on today's show? How we can stop obsessing about the

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Speaker 1: stuff of weddings, dinner, parties, and celebrations, and instead remember

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Speaker 1: why we're coming together in the first place. I'm Maya

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Speaker 1: Shunker and this is a slight change of plants, a

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Speaker 1: show about who we are and who we become in

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Speaker 1: the face of a big change. If you're anything like me,

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Speaker 1: when you first think of a gathering, logistics are top

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Speaker 1: of mind, details like location or what should beyond the menu.

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Speaker 1: But since I'm not a detail oriented person and I'm

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Speaker 1: terrible at logistics, organizing gatherings stresses me out. And this

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Speaker 1: is pretty unfortunate because those of you who listen to

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Speaker 1: the show know how much I love connecting with people.

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Speaker 1: It's my favorite thing to do. Prea's work has changed

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Speaker 1: the game for me. She's helped me rethink why and

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Speaker 1: how we should get together. I think one thing that

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Speaker 1: really drew me to your story, Prea, and to your

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Speaker 1: work is that you approach the art of gathering from

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Speaker 1: such a fresh perspective. Right It's not from the vantage

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Speaker 1: point of an event planner or an organizer, but instead

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Speaker 1: as an expert in group dialogue and conflict resolution. And

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Speaker 1: so I'm wondering what inspired you to work in this

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Speaker 1: area in the first place. I think, perhaps like most

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Speaker 1: of us, so much of my work very much stem

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Speaker 1: from how I was raised and what I bumped into

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Speaker 1: as a child, then as a young person. I'm by racial.

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Speaker 1: My mother is Indian, an Indian immigrant, and my father

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Speaker 1: is white American, And for the first ten years of

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Speaker 1: their life and their marriage together, we lived in a

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Speaker 1: number of different countries. I was born in Zimbabwe, and

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Speaker 1: we moved to the Maldives and to Indonesia, and eventually

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Speaker 1: moved back to the States. And within a year of

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Speaker 1: moving to Virginia, they separated. And when they did, everyone

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Speaker 1: myself included, was shocked because they never fought. And so

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Speaker 1: that was the first signal to me, like, oh, all

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Speaker 1: is not what it might appear to be. All is

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Speaker 1: not necessarily always well, and that conflict isn't always observable,

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Speaker 1: that there's many codes that are happening within a relationship.

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Speaker 1: But then within two years they remarried other people, and

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Speaker 1: I would leave my mother and stepfather's house and it

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Speaker 1: was and still is an in British kind of globally

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Speaker 1: minded New age, meditating progressive household, and I would, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I would come downstairs in that home, and the first

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Speaker 1: question that I would be asked in the morning, is like,

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Speaker 1: tell us about your dream, like, tell us about your

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Speaker 1: dream last night, like literally like, and our conversations would

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Speaker 1: be about dream interpretation. And then I would travel to

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Speaker 1: my father and stepmother's house. And it was and still

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Speaker 1: is a white American Evangelical Christian conservative Republican church, going

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Speaker 1: often twice a week, dogs in the house, meat eating,

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Speaker 1: kind of like all Americana. And I became a contact

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Speaker 1: resolution facilitator in college in part, I think because I

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Speaker 1: lived in these two households in which how they began

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Speaker 1: their meals was completely different, how they celebrated or marked

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Speaker 1: indication was completely different. What they considered obvious was completely different.

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Speaker 1: You know, you had had extensive experience in the conflict

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Speaker 1: negotiation space in facilitating group dialogue. Was there a defining

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Speaker 1: moment when you realized this work really meaningfully intersects with

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Speaker 1: the way that we think about gatherings, because I don't

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Speaker 1: think everyone would have connected those dots. Such a good question.

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Speaker 1: You're incredibly insightful, and I actually don't think i've shared

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Speaker 1: this before. I knew that what I was trained to

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Speaker 1: do as a group facilitator, how to connect people quickly.

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Speaker 1: How to get people off their scripts? Right, if you're

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Speaker 1: coming together, how do you prime these people? And how

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Speaker 1: what do you do in a room to get them

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Speaker 1: to not say what their pre prepared stump speech was,

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Speaker 1: but kind of shift them into a lane of conversation

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Speaker 1: where they're surprised themselves by what they're sharing or revealing.

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Speaker 1: How do you create the conditions where people are open

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Speaker 1: to one of my teachers, Keith Johnstone, calls being altered

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Speaker 1: by each other? And I knew that so much of

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Speaker 1: what kind of outside of this field of facilitation were

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Speaker 1: taught around groups and gathering tends to be about stuff, right.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like the proxy in the bookstore or the

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Speaker 1: library is cookbooks. Right, if you want to if you're

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Speaker 1: going to gather, here's a cookbook. And I what I

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Speaker 1: wanted to do is detangle gathering from the stuff of gathering,

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Speaker 1: from food from hosting the Martha Stewart archetype that like,

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Speaker 1: the way to host well is to put crewetaise, you know,

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Speaker 1: prepare your crew totaise three days in advance. And this

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Speaker 1: is there's nothing wrong with that, but it becomes so

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Speaker 1: gelled into this is the only form of gathering and

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Speaker 1: to be an expert in food, to be an expert

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Speaker 1: in floral, to be an expert in aesthetics, and all

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Speaker 1: of those things create beauty and meaning. But they're the hygiene, right,

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Speaker 1: it's not actually what do you do with these people?

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Speaker 1: And what I wanted to do is kind of write

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Speaker 1: a book for the rest of us. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not a good cook. I you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: have a fancy house. I you know, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: demystify and kind of bring what facilitators are taught to

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Speaker 1: do into every day democratic, normal gathering spaces, whatever normal

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Speaker 1: means to you in your context or community. And basically

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Speaker 1: it's like that ratatui. Like anyone can cook, anyone can gather,

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to demystify how anybody can create a

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Speaker 1: meaningful gathering for their people in a way that is transformative,

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Speaker 1: memorable and isn't a waste of time. Yeah, and when

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Speaker 1: you approach it with a human first perspective, it really

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Speaker 1: does feel accessible for so many of us. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I am the worst at logistics and planning. I am

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Speaker 1: not a detail oriented person. Organizing things is like my

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Speaker 1: worst nightmare. I've yet to enter that phase of adulting,

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Speaker 1: and so it felt like you were just speaking my language,

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Speaker 1: because I felt like you were making gathering something that

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Speaker 1: felt so inaccessible to me as defined by society at large,

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Speaker 1: because I am so bad at that sort of stuff,

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Speaker 1: something that maybe I could thrive and excel at. That

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Speaker 1: makes me so happy. So let's dig into this very

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Speaker 1: valuable wisdom that you have, which is we focus so

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Speaker 1: much on the logistics of gatherings rather than the human component. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're just forgetting. We're losing touch with the primary goal

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Speaker 1: of gathering. And so you say that one of the

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Speaker 1: first things we should do is ask ourselves a very

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Speaker 1: foundational question, which is the why question. Why are we

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Speaker 1: really gathering? Do you mind saying more about that? The

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Speaker 1: biggest mistake we make when we gather is we assume

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Speaker 1: that the purpose is obvious and shared. Oh I know

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Speaker 1: what a wedding is, and so does everyone else. Oh

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Speaker 1: I know what a board meeting is. Oh I know

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Speaker 1: what a dinner party is. And then because we assume

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Speaker 1: we know what it's for, we skip too quickly to

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Speaker 1: form right long eye, white dress or red dress, going

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Speaker 1: in a circle seven times round a fire or board meeting.

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Speaker 1: You know, one long brown table, twelve white men, and

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Speaker 1: instead when we pause and actually ask, Okay, why are

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Speaker 1: we doing this? What is the purpose? What is the

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Speaker 1: purpose of this of my birthday party or my birthday

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Speaker 1: not even birthday party? What is the purpose of my

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Speaker 1: birthday this year? What do I most want to mark?

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Speaker 1: What do I most need in my life? Do I

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Speaker 1: want to reconnect with a friends who've actually lost touch

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Speaker 1: with and as I feel like I'm kind of starting

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Speaker 1: to lose my way, I actually want to double down?

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Speaker 1: And what would it look like if I actually hosted

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Speaker 1: a party for just the friends who I knew before

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Speaker 1: I was twenty and we all share or talk about

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Speaker 1: or do something we used to do together and then

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Speaker 1: reflect on who we've become and what our regrets are

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Speaker 1: and how do I find my way again? Or is

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Speaker 1: like the deepest need of my life in this moment

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Speaker 1: to reconnect with a sense of adventure? And actually, what

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Speaker 1: I want to do for my birthday this year is

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Speaker 1: like go to the fishing docks and watch the fisher

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Speaker 1: people pull in their fish at five am and invite

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Speaker 1: my friends who would only say yes to that crazy

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Speaker 1: invitation to come with me. And so often because we

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Speaker 1: don't pause to actually ask why our imagination gets incredibly

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Speaker 1: stuck and we focus on perfecting the forms that we

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Speaker 1: already know. And so when you pause and actually ask

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Speaker 1: why am I doing this? What is the need? It

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Speaker 1: actually opens up an entire world of how we could

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Speaker 1: actually spend our time together. But it's also incredibly relevant

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Speaker 1: and moving because you're then inviting specific people that makes

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Speaker 1: sense for that need, that feel like they're of use

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Speaker 1: rather than being used. Right, It's not like how many

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Speaker 1: people can I get at this party? Oh gosh, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: who are the people in my life who give me courage?

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Speaker 1: What if this year I only invited them to come

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Speaker 1: together and bring me like poems or objects that give

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Speaker 1: them courage because I just need a little bit of

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Speaker 1: courage blown my way this year. Yeah. But because we're

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Speaker 1: like okay, candles and pointy hats, we're actually going on

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Speaker 1: autopilot and perpetuating forms that no longer necessarily make any sense. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You say that a common mistake is to confuse having

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Speaker 1: a category with having a purpose, right, Yes, that if

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Speaker 1: you identify the category, Oh it's a birthday party, it's

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Speaker 1: a funeral, it's a baby shower, that naturally lends itself

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Speaker 1: to a purpose, but it's actually a very distinct process

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Speaker 1: to define the purpose of the gathering. And there was

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Speaker 1: one anecdote that really stuck out to me, and it

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Speaker 1: was around a woman's baby shower. And the whole time

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Speaker 1: I'm reading this passage, I'm like, you go, girl, like

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Speaker 1: she was so awesome in the way that she was

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Speaker 1: thinking about the true goals she had for this baby shower.

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Speaker 1: Do you mind sharing that story? Sure? I mean, I

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Speaker 1: love the example of a baby shower in part because

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Speaker 1: people have such strong feelings about them either way. So

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Speaker 1: I've talked about them a lot because we feel like, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's only one way to do a shower. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to have a pin a diaper on a baby thing,

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Speaker 1: like why am I doing this? It's often because we're

200
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Speaker 1: so stuck to form. It's either like I don't want

201
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Speaker 1: a baby shower or like I'm going to go through

202
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Speaker 1: this thing and it's kind of I find it kind

203
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Speaker 1: of silly. But my community wants to bless me, and

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Speaker 1: this is the form that we do in our community

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Speaker 1: instead to pause and actually ask what does my actual

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Speaker 1: need right now? I'll give a couple of examples, so

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Speaker 1: one is I was advising as coaching a woman on

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Speaker 1: her baby shower. She had two different parts of her

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Speaker 1: of this kind of baby shower. One is, she was

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Speaker 1: terrified of labor. And she invited six of her friends

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Speaker 1: and each of them brought a bead of a different

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Speaker 1: color to put together into a necklace, and each bead

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Speaker 1: basically representative value that she already has. They know her

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Speaker 1: to have, right, your sense of bravery, your sense of awe,

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Speaker 1: your sense of humor, your sense of wonder. And as

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Speaker 1: her friends, as her mentors, they've seen this quality that

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Speaker 1: is already within her, and they were inviting her to

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Speaker 1: tap into something that was already within her to know

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Speaker 1: that she could do this. And then they put that

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Speaker 1: into a necklace for her to wear or at least

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Speaker 1: take with her to the hospital. And then there's a

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Speaker 1: second part of the ritual in which in the evening

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Speaker 1: she and her husband invited friends, men and women to

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Speaker 1: come have dinner together and to share stories of different

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Speaker 1: elements of the things that they loved about how they

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Speaker 1: were raised. And part of the act of that that

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Speaker 1: was so radical, I mean, it's so simple, was that

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Speaker 1: it was inviting both men and women, people who have

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Speaker 1: complex relationships with their parents, like all of us, right

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Speaker 1: to share, to come into conversation and to reflect together.

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Speaker 1: They're shifting the culture. Who should be part of the

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Speaker 1: conversations around parenting just the mothers? No, not if you

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Speaker 1: want to coequal parenting, right, who should be invited early on,

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Speaker 1: well before you give birth to think about, well, how

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Speaker 1: are we going to structure these rules? And so that

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Speaker 1: dinner not just was helpful to them, but it began

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Speaker 1: to shift the assumption of all of their roles around

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Speaker 1: how they want to begin to raise their children. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I absolutely love this story for many reasons. I think

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Speaker 1: one of them is, you know, this family together is

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Speaker 1: figuring out why it is that they want or need

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Speaker 1: to have a baby shower and in the mother articulating

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Speaker 1: I'm terrified of labor. It helps reduce stigma around the

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Speaker 1: pregnancy experience absolutely where you know, women are told in society, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's supposed to be this magical time where you're glowing

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Speaker 1: and you can't wait to birth new life, and that

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Speaker 1: does not reflect the reality of so many women's experience

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Speaker 1: going through pregnancy and giving birth and the kind of

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Speaker 1: anxiety and alienation that can accompany every part of that process,

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Speaker 1: and so I love that in defining the purpose and

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Speaker 1: meaning of her gathering fully, it had a broader societal

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Speaker 1: purpose to it as well. Absolutely, So to summarize, we

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Speaker 1: want to ask ourselves that why question, why are we

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Speaker 1: really gathering? And we want to commit to this bold,

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Speaker 1: sharp purpose? And I want to know what are just

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Speaker 1: a couple of examples of purpose statements that you think

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Speaker 1: are really good, just to give our listeners a sense

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Speaker 1: of the kind of specificity that you have in mind

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about purpose. That's such a great question,

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Speaker 1: you know. Taking a simple example of a pool party, okay, right,

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Speaker 1: neighbors is like, let's let's have a pool party. So

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Speaker 1: an unhelpful purpose is let's have our neighbors swim. Right,

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Speaker 1: let's get in the pool, right, that's an activity. A

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Speaker 1: good purpose is let's toast a pool party in order

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Speaker 1: to remind and help shape our children so that they

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Speaker 1: know that neighbors aren't scary. A helpful purpose helps you

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Speaker 1: make decisions at the deepest essence, What is it that

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Speaker 1: you actually need in this moment? Well, it's been a

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Speaker 1: long time since we've actually brought people together. And I

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Speaker 1: grew up in a neighborhood in which children ran between households,

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Speaker 1: and I want to see if we could create that

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Speaker 1: for our children. And I really deeply want them to

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Speaker 1: know their neighbors and feel like this is a place

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Speaker 1: where everybody's looking out for each other. All of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: you have your marching orders. Okay, so we're going to

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Speaker 1: invite our neighbors, not our friends. We're going to invite

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Speaker 1: the people within three walking blocks, or we're going to

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Speaker 1: invite people within our apartment building, or it gives you

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Speaker 1: an orientation, It helps you understand why are we doing this,

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Speaker 1: and how do we begin to think about who to invite? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this speaks to something you've already mentioned, which is

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Speaker 1: the next step is to figure out who. And what

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Speaker 1: I found so interesting that you share in your work

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Speaker 1: is that a guest list is as much about who

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Speaker 1: you don't invite as it is about who you do invite.

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Speaker 1: That was so interesting and it really flipped it around

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Speaker 1: for me. And the reason you say this is that

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Speaker 1: we can tend towards over inclusion, right to avoid hurt feelings,

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Speaker 1: to pay people back for times they've invited us to something.

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Speaker 1: But you caution caution against this because you say that

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Speaker 1: way of thinking can really jeopardize the quality of the gathering.

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Speaker 1: You know, you may have been raised the way I

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Speaker 1: heard this quite often, like the more the merrier, that's

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Speaker 1: always one more seat at our table. And there's there's

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Speaker 1: a spirit of generosity in that, and I and I

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Speaker 1: think gathering is an act of generosity. But in part

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Speaker 1: because we don't ask what the need is first, We

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Speaker 1: actually don't know how to exclude people or why to

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Speaker 1: exclude people. We have no rationale for excluding people, right,

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Speaker 1: we back into it in our work context. You show

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Speaker 1: up to a meeting, maybe it's a TBD hold on

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Speaker 1: your calendar. You show up and it's a you know,

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Speaker 1: a product design meeting, and you enter the zoom room

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Speaker 1: or you enter into the conference room and you know,

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Speaker 1: you look around, it's like, why is legal here? It

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Speaker 1: changes the whole tenor of the meeting. Yeah, exactly right.

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Speaker 1: But we're always doing this, we're kind of backing into it.

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Speaker 1: You almost like what is this thing for? Based on

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Speaker 1: who's in the room. And when we don't first ask

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Speaker 1: what is the need? Why are we actually here? We

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Speaker 1: over include and it's not rocket science. Like often if

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Speaker 1: it's four people or six people, eight people. All of

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Speaker 1: us are like this. We calculate what we share based

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Speaker 1: on the person who we least know in the room,

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Speaker 1: not with the person with whom we have the best

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Speaker 1: relationship with. It's a different party based on who's there.

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Speaker 1: It's a different meaning, it's a different wedding, and so

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Speaker 1: who you invite actually shifts the conversation. Speaking of weddings,

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Speaker 1: when we're back from the break, Priya and I take

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Speaker 1: the time machine back to my wedding day. Because weddings

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Speaker 1: can be especially thorny. They have a lot to teach

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Speaker 1: us about the art and science of gathering. We'll be

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Speaker 1: back in a moment with a slight change of plan.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, I'm thinking back to my wedding

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Speaker 1: planning process and I'm just remembering that Jimmy and I

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Speaker 1: and I don't think we're alone in this. Part of

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Speaker 1: the guest planning process was literally trying to take account

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Speaker 1: of all the people who had invited us to their weddings. Right,

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Speaker 1: you really, you really don't want to hurt people's feelings.

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Speaker 1: You want to create a sense that there's reciprocity. By

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Speaker 1: the way, if you're listening to this and we're at

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Speaker 1: my wedding. You were on the top list. You're not

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Speaker 1: on this, You're not on this back, You're you're all in. Okay,

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Speaker 1: just to be clear, No, But more seriously, I think

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Speaker 1: you talk in the book about how Obama's aunt told

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Speaker 1: him if everyone's family, no one is family, and you've

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Speaker 1: kind of extended that to this domain as well, which is,

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Speaker 1: if everyone is invited, no one's invited. You capture the sentiment. Well,

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Speaker 1: you have a phrase called the kindness of exclusion, and

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Speaker 1: and I like, help me out here, prey, because I

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Speaker 1: do feel like if I were to planet wedding today,

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Speaker 1: i'd probably go through the same process because I don't

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Speaker 1: want to upset anybody. And so I want you to

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Speaker 1: help me build courage in this moment to think differently

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Speaker 1: about who is on that guest list and who's not

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Speaker 1: on the guest list. Gathering is an act of line drawing,

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Speaker 1: and we don't like to think of it that way,

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Speaker 1: but it is. It's an act of persuasion. I have

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Speaker 1: a vision for a specific time, in a specific place,

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Speaker 1: to move your body in your mind into that space

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Speaker 1: right with these other people, like won't you come on in?

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Speaker 1: And by definition like sometimes the constraint is the living

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Speaker 1: room or the porch, right, But every gathering is an

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Speaker 1: act of line drawing what is the need and given that,

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Speaker 1: who is in and who is out for that temporary

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Speaker 1: moment in time, And there's certain gatherings where who is

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Speaker 1: in and who is out becomes incredibly symbolic. Right. So, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: some of the gatherings were talking about weddings, baby showers,

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Speaker 1: those end up becoming also kind of like litmus tests, right,

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Speaker 1: a friendship, and so it's just starting to deeply become

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Speaker 1: intentional about why are you actually doing this? So, so

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Speaker 1: part of what's complex about modern life is most of

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Speaker 1: us are negotiating multiple value systems at the same time. Yes,

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Speaker 1: well said, and so in a wedding there are multiple

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Speaker 1: obligations that actually come from different value systems. So one

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Speaker 1: value system is the collective value system of reciprocity, and

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Speaker 1: some of that is a collective reciprocity. You and I

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Speaker 1: both have Indian backgrounds, like many Indian weddings, and my

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Speaker 1: cousins eies are like literally seven hundred eight hundred people. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my parents wedding head over a thousand people, Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And we look at that from the West, at least

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Speaker 1: from the US. Often it's like, how do you even

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Speaker 1: know all those people? But that's actually a very specific

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Speaker 1: individualistic value system in which the assumption is you or

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Speaker 1: your parents have an individual link and maybe even a

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Speaker 1: meaningful relationship to everyone there. That is just not true. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a value system in which it's actually multiple generations

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00:22:22,356 --> 00:22:24,956
Speaker 1: of reciprocity and who gave who and loan and who

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Speaker 1: gave who When one person's cousin was sick and they

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Speaker 1: slept on their living room floor thirty five years ago,

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Speaker 1: then they right. It's a different cultural system. And so

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Speaker 1: in a wedding, the planning process becomes this incredibly powerful

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Speaker 1: set of negotiations and conversations between the couple and often

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Speaker 1: between the couple and the parents. And so one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons weddings are so chaotic or feel, you know,

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Speaker 1: emotionally incredibly difficult, is because it's a lot of cutting,

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Speaker 1: and it's a lot of line drawing, and often we're

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Speaker 1: sorting ourselves out. Do I fundamentally want to invite everybody

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Speaker 1: else who invited me to their weddings? And we find

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Speaker 1: we'll just make it twenty more people. It'll be a

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Speaker 1: larger wedding than we thought. But I want to be

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Speaker 1: part of communities of reciprocity, and that's what we've landed on.

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Speaker 1: And that's okay, that's a legitim at purpose. The core

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Speaker 1: purpose of your wedding might actually be to honor the

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Speaker 1: generation behind you. That's okay, right, I'm not like that's

396
00:23:17,316 --> 00:23:20,876
Speaker 1: why this is actually a freeing construct is because you

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00:23:20,996 --> 00:23:23,556
Speaker 1: decide what the need is. The problem is going in

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Speaker 1: blindly and kind of backing into stuff and basically not

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Speaker 1: choosing your life. Yeah, and I think it's freeing. And

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Speaker 1: it's also not a one time decision either when it

401
00:23:35,036 --> 00:23:38,276
Speaker 1: comes to planning a wedding in terms of negotiating those values.

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00:23:38,516 --> 00:23:42,556
Speaker 1: Different values can express themselves over the course of an event. Right.

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Speaker 1: So when it came to my wedding, you know, my

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Speaker 1: husband comes from a Chinese tradition, my parents come from

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Speaker 1: Indian tradition, and so on. The guest list were absolutely

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Speaker 1: people that we may have never met before, but we're

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00:23:54,156 --> 00:23:56,076
Speaker 1: very important to both of our parents. That was just

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00:23:56,156 --> 00:23:58,876
Speaker 1: it almost felt like a non negotiable that written into

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Speaker 1: the purpose of our wedding statement was making our parents happy,

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Speaker 1: making our families happy. On the other hand, you know,

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00:24:06,476 --> 00:24:08,636
Speaker 1: Jimmy and I poured a ton of time into thinking

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Speaker 1: thoughtful about how to create this Chindian ceremony where there

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Speaker 1: was the blending of two cultures. We spent a lot

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Speaker 1: of time writing vows and yeah, we felt that was

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Speaker 1: the most sacred aspect of the whole ceremony. And so

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Speaker 1: that was one moment where we had to part from

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Speaker 1: cultural expectations around inclusion. And I still remember to this day,

418
00:24:27,956 --> 00:24:31,356
Speaker 1: was so uncomfortable writing to a few people saying Hey,

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Speaker 1: we're actually going to do a kid's free ceremony was

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Speaker 1: so painful, I think, I mean, my mom was probably

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Speaker 1: just like, what is going on in this Western world

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Speaker 1: that we live in. It's ridiculous. Yes, of course it

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Speaker 1: was so antithetical to the inclusive vibes of an Indian wedding.

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Speaker 1: But that was a moment in the process where Jimmy

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00:24:52,596 --> 00:24:54,236
Speaker 1: and I were able to draw a line for ourselves

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Speaker 1: and say, Okay, look, kids can come to the celebration

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Speaker 1: part the reception, but we just need the ceremony to

428
00:24:59,876 --> 00:25:02,676
Speaker 1: really be an adult gathering because of the way that

429
00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:05,676
Speaker 1: we're approaching it. And so I like the complexity there,

430
00:25:05,716 --> 00:25:07,476
Speaker 1: which is like you don't have to give everything, but

431
00:25:07,476 --> 00:25:09,716
Speaker 1: you also don't have to take everything. It's an gootiable

432
00:25:09,876 --> 00:25:14,996
Speaker 1: process throughout, and you're making distinctions. So part of what

433
00:25:14,996 --> 00:25:17,516
Speaker 1: you're doing is even within a contract of a wedding.

434
00:25:17,516 --> 00:25:19,996
Speaker 1: And again this is true for conferences, this is true

435
00:25:20,036 --> 00:25:24,196
Speaker 1: for retreats. Is there are multiple gatherings within the gathering,

436
00:25:24,756 --> 00:25:27,796
Speaker 1: and so you're actually having some sophistication to say, at

437
00:25:27,836 --> 00:25:29,956
Speaker 1: this place, this is the need, and therefore this is

438
00:25:29,956 --> 00:25:31,676
Speaker 1: going to be the circle. At this place, this is

439
00:25:31,716 --> 00:25:33,356
Speaker 1: the need, and therefore this is going to be the circle.

440
00:25:33,596 --> 00:25:37,716
Speaker 1: You know. And so you and you're then fiance having

441
00:25:37,756 --> 00:25:41,116
Speaker 1: these conversations with each other, having these conversations with your parents.

442
00:25:41,316 --> 00:25:43,676
Speaker 1: You know, I heard you say earlier our part of

443
00:25:43,676 --> 00:25:45,996
Speaker 1: our purpose, or written to our wedding statement, was to

444
00:25:46,076 --> 00:25:50,116
Speaker 1: make our parents happy. You know. That is like there,

445
00:25:50,156 --> 00:25:51,836
Speaker 1: I'm sure there were certain things you would not do

446
00:25:51,916 --> 00:25:54,236
Speaker 1: that would make them happy. I might slightly shift it

447
00:25:54,276 --> 00:25:56,876
Speaker 1: to say what I hear part of that statement is

448
00:25:56,876 --> 00:26:00,156
Speaker 1: is to in certain important ways to honor the traditions

449
00:26:00,196 --> 00:26:03,156
Speaker 1: and desires of our parents. That's right, and in other

450
00:26:03,236 --> 00:26:05,996
Speaker 1: ways to break from that, to carve out new ways.

451
00:26:06,036 --> 00:26:08,116
Speaker 1: Exactly to know what to break and what to keep.

452
00:26:09,116 --> 00:26:11,836
Speaker 1: To summarize for our listeners, we've talked about the why

453
00:26:12,036 --> 00:26:15,476
Speaker 1: question why we gather. We've also talked about the who right,

454
00:26:15,516 --> 00:26:17,236
Speaker 1: who should be on the guest list, who should not

455
00:26:17,276 --> 00:26:20,356
Speaker 1: be on the guest list? How should we think about

456
00:26:20,476 --> 00:26:24,876
Speaker 1: where we gather? Rooms come with scripts, right, So, like

457
00:26:24,956 --> 00:26:30,276
Speaker 1: how you behave in a nightclub is different than how

458
00:26:30,316 --> 00:26:33,436
Speaker 1: one behaves the same person right behaves when they walk

459
00:26:33,476 --> 00:26:37,236
Speaker 1: into a conference room. And there's going to be a

460
00:26:37,236 --> 00:26:41,516
Speaker 1: common theme here. You're who should stem from what the

461
00:26:41,556 --> 00:26:44,276
Speaker 1: need is, what the purposes of the gathering. You're aware

462
00:26:45,236 --> 00:26:48,756
Speaker 1: should also serve the purpose and also timing of day

463
00:26:48,876 --> 00:26:52,156
Speaker 1: so you know, I'm a contact resolution facilitator and in

464
00:26:52,196 --> 00:26:53,996
Speaker 1: the context that I often work with. Some of that

465
00:26:54,076 --> 00:26:56,996
Speaker 1: is also power power related, right if you're bringing together

466
00:26:57,556 --> 00:27:01,116
Speaker 1: a team or are a family where a lot of

467
00:27:01,156 --> 00:27:04,476
Speaker 1: the rupture is actually about some people having too much

468
00:27:04,476 --> 00:27:06,996
Speaker 1: power and other people not having enough, you don't host

469
00:27:07,316 --> 00:27:10,476
Speaker 1: the gathering at the site of power, right like so,

470
00:27:10,476 --> 00:27:12,876
Speaker 1: so some of that is like literally, who's turf is

471
00:27:12,916 --> 00:27:14,196
Speaker 1: this on and where? And do you have it in

472
00:27:14,236 --> 00:27:15,756
Speaker 1: a neutral place or do you have in your home

473
00:27:15,876 --> 00:27:17,676
Speaker 1: or do you have it whatever it is. Yeah, and

474
00:27:17,716 --> 00:27:19,756
Speaker 1: because we are trained to act in certain ways in

475
00:27:19,796 --> 00:27:24,196
Speaker 1: certain environments and bring expectations to certain environments. I think

476
00:27:24,676 --> 00:27:29,356
Speaker 1: the biggest lesson from you is rewrite the order of operations.

477
00:27:29,396 --> 00:27:31,796
Speaker 1: Do not book the venue first, which I think is

478
00:27:31,836 --> 00:27:33,996
Speaker 1: all of our instincts. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna book

479
00:27:33,996 --> 00:27:36,676
Speaker 1: a venue and then let that dictate everything else. It's

480
00:27:36,676 --> 00:27:38,876
Speaker 1: going to dictate how many people I can invite, it's

481
00:27:38,876 --> 00:27:42,116
Speaker 1: going to dictate the kinds of events and in activities

482
00:27:42,156 --> 00:27:45,116
Speaker 1: we can engage in. We're like cooking our lasso to

483
00:27:45,156 --> 00:27:47,996
Speaker 1: the wrong star exactly, you got it. Yeah, And I

484
00:27:47,996 --> 00:27:51,276
Speaker 1: mean just some kind of the math. So density creates

485
00:27:51,316 --> 00:27:55,276
Speaker 1: different kind of behavior, meaning how many actually bodies are

486
00:27:55,396 --> 00:28:01,396
Speaker 1: within a square footage borders kind of matter. So an

487
00:28:01,396 --> 00:28:04,276
Speaker 1: example at a restaurant, this is one of my favorite tips.

488
00:28:04,516 --> 00:28:06,516
Speaker 1: My friends often like they're like, don't want to be

489
00:28:06,596 --> 00:28:08,636
Speaker 1: seen with me because I will go and insist on

490
00:28:09,916 --> 00:28:12,596
Speaker 1: ordering the chairs in a restaurant. If you have six

491
00:28:12,636 --> 00:28:16,876
Speaker 1: people going together to a table, instead of having three

492
00:28:16,916 --> 00:28:18,876
Speaker 1: people on one side and three people on the other

493
00:28:18,876 --> 00:28:23,196
Speaker 1: side of the table, put one person on each basically

494
00:28:23,316 --> 00:28:26,316
Speaker 1: the head. Otherwise you're like leaking energy. You want to

495
00:28:26,356 --> 00:28:30,156
Speaker 1: close the circle because that actually shifts the conversation. It

496
00:28:30,436 --> 00:28:33,396
Speaker 1: actually gives a border in a way that turns two

497
00:28:33,436 --> 00:28:36,596
Speaker 1: lines into a group, and the conversation changes. The way

498
00:28:36,596 --> 00:28:38,916
Speaker 1: people feel safe or not changes, who can enter an

499
00:28:38,956 --> 00:28:43,876
Speaker 1: exit changes. But we often assume, however the room is

500
00:28:43,916 --> 00:28:45,916
Speaker 1: set up, is the way it has to be, and

501
00:28:45,956 --> 00:28:48,716
Speaker 1: like facilitation one to one at any context, is you

502
00:28:48,756 --> 00:28:50,756
Speaker 1: go into the room and you shift the furniture so

503
00:28:50,796 --> 00:28:53,836
Speaker 1: that it serves the purpose. Yeah, I mean you were

504
00:28:53,916 --> 00:28:55,996
Speaker 1: joking about the fact that, like your friends don't want

505
00:28:56,036 --> 00:28:58,956
Speaker 1: to come to your restaurant gatherings because you'll force them

506
00:28:58,956 --> 00:29:00,716
Speaker 1: to move the chairs. But not a joke. It does

507
00:29:01,596 --> 00:29:04,436
Speaker 1: speak to a part of this process that can feel

508
00:29:04,516 --> 00:29:07,876
Speaker 1: quite uncomfortable, which is you know you talk about how

509
00:29:08,436 --> 00:29:13,796
Speaker 1: as the hope, it can be very important to define

510
00:29:13,916 --> 00:29:17,516
Speaker 1: rules in advance of an event, right, So I talk

511
00:29:17,556 --> 00:29:21,916
Speaker 1: about the idea of pop up rules versus etiquette. So

512
00:29:22,116 --> 00:29:27,396
Speaker 1: etiquette kind of traditionally comes from monolithic cultures or communities

513
00:29:27,476 --> 00:29:30,796
Speaker 1: where whatever is considered to be polite is assumed and

514
00:29:31,076 --> 00:29:35,236
Speaker 1: learned from the culture, which can work when everybody is

515
00:29:35,316 --> 00:29:38,876
Speaker 1: raised in the same way, but in diverse societies. The

516
00:29:38,876 --> 00:29:41,236
Speaker 1: way one person's raise is different from the way another

517
00:29:41,236 --> 00:29:44,396
Speaker 1: person's raise, and when we are inventing new ways of

518
00:29:44,436 --> 00:29:47,236
Speaker 1: coming together, we all have different assumptions of how to

519
00:29:47,276 --> 00:29:52,916
Speaker 1: be and making the implicit explicit is actually an equalizing

520
00:29:52,956 --> 00:29:57,716
Speaker 1: act in a diverse community. And that doesn't mean you

521
00:29:57,716 --> 00:30:00,676
Speaker 1: have to be controlling or you know, super didactic. You

522
00:30:00,676 --> 00:30:04,596
Speaker 1: can do it in an incredibly fun ways, so simple

523
00:30:04,636 --> 00:30:07,556
Speaker 1: example this comes from Anthony Rocco. He's an experienced designer,

524
00:30:08,036 --> 00:30:10,756
Speaker 1: he's in the art of gathering. He was in charge

525
00:30:10,756 --> 00:30:15,556
Speaker 1: of creating these like secret society member nights. You would

526
00:30:15,596 --> 00:30:18,716
Speaker 1: walk into this room, didn't know anybody, and someone who

527
00:30:18,756 --> 00:30:20,316
Speaker 1: was standing at the door and they were like, welcome,

528
00:30:20,396 --> 00:30:22,356
Speaker 1: drinks her in the back. There's only one rule. You

529
00:30:22,436 --> 00:30:26,836
Speaker 1: can't serve yourself a drink. You can serve anyone else

530
00:30:26,876 --> 00:30:29,836
Speaker 1: a drink, but you can't serve yourself a drink. It

531
00:30:29,956 --> 00:30:34,276
Speaker 1: was a slight tilt that gives people social permission right

532
00:30:34,716 --> 00:30:39,276
Speaker 1: to look out for one another. And one of my

533
00:30:39,276 --> 00:30:42,916
Speaker 1: favorite examples is a journalist who hosted what she called

534
00:30:43,436 --> 00:30:46,636
Speaker 1: the worn Out Moms Hoot and Nanny and it was

535
00:30:46,676 --> 00:30:52,236
Speaker 1: a dinner party and she invited other moms who like her,

536
00:30:52,916 --> 00:30:55,996
Speaker 1: she believed to be worn out and the invitation on it.

537
00:30:56,076 --> 00:30:58,556
Speaker 1: She said, there's only one rule, and that is if

538
00:30:58,596 --> 00:31:00,516
Speaker 1: you talk about your kids, you have to take a

539
00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:05,636
Speaker 1: tequila shot. And again, like it was fun, it was playful,

540
00:31:05,676 --> 00:31:07,876
Speaker 1: but it's also slightly radical in the sense that she's

541
00:31:07,876 --> 00:31:10,876
Speaker 1: saying we can come together with a shared identity of

542
00:31:10,876 --> 00:31:12,956
Speaker 1: being a parent and we don't have to talk about

543
00:31:12,996 --> 00:31:15,436
Speaker 1: our kids. Yeah, right, we can talk about so many

544
00:31:15,476 --> 00:31:18,476
Speaker 1: other things. And so when I say pop up rule,

545
00:31:18,596 --> 00:31:20,756
Speaker 1: it's really starting to just think about what is going

546
00:31:20,796 --> 00:31:23,876
Speaker 1: to make people feel safe. What is the context though,

547
00:31:23,956 --> 00:31:26,396
Speaker 1: and this is true in virtual gatherings as well, like

548
00:31:26,596 --> 00:31:28,436
Speaker 1: who's going to be there? And how do I orient

549
00:31:28,556 --> 00:31:31,396
Speaker 1: myself so that I know that whatever success looks like here,

550
00:31:31,436 --> 00:31:33,876
Speaker 1: I can choose to engage and as a guest, I

551
00:31:33,876 --> 00:31:37,076
Speaker 1: can truly choose if I want to be there or not. Yeah,

552
00:31:37,116 --> 00:31:42,036
Speaker 1: I mean, I believe that what you're proposing can absolutely

553
00:31:42,076 --> 00:31:46,116
Speaker 1: help lift the quality of the gathering, help achieve its purpose.

554
00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:50,236
Speaker 1: But one reason why it's hard for people to establish

555
00:31:50,556 --> 00:31:54,156
Speaker 1: rules in advance is that it does go against the norm, right,

556
00:31:54,196 --> 00:31:56,996
Speaker 1: and it just takes a lot to be the first

557
00:31:57,076 --> 00:32:00,276
Speaker 1: mover to establish new norms, especially when the costs can

558
00:32:00,316 --> 00:32:03,436
Speaker 1: feel very high, like I might offend a friend or

559
00:32:03,476 --> 00:32:06,596
Speaker 1: they might see this as a very patronizing move or

560
00:32:06,676 --> 00:32:09,276
Speaker 1: paternalistic move like don't tell me who gets to or

561
00:32:09,316 --> 00:32:12,236
Speaker 1: who's drink right, that sort of thing. And so I

562
00:32:12,276 --> 00:32:14,916
Speaker 1: just wonder, given like you said, it can it can

563
00:32:14,956 --> 00:32:18,756
Speaker 1: actually lead to a better gathering, It can foster greater inclusivity.

564
00:32:19,916 --> 00:32:23,116
Speaker 1: How do we build the I'm just trying to think

565
00:32:23,116 --> 00:32:25,476
Speaker 1: about the right the right word here, but it's like

566
00:32:26,356 --> 00:32:28,876
Speaker 1: it takes some goal to be willing to say, yep,

567
00:32:29,396 --> 00:32:31,756
Speaker 1: I'm inviting you to this thing, but there are terms

568
00:32:31,756 --> 00:32:34,836
Speaker 1: and conditions. Yeah, and unless you're prea Parker who has

569
00:32:34,876 --> 00:32:37,196
Speaker 1: a book that's literally called The Art Gathering, so you

570
00:32:37,276 --> 00:32:39,836
Speaker 1: kind of get like a hall pass for establishing those

571
00:32:39,876 --> 00:32:41,836
Speaker 1: rules because they're like, Okay, she's an expert. Like, how

572
00:32:41,876 --> 00:32:45,756
Speaker 1: do I maya establish these rules without feeling like wildly

573
00:32:45,796 --> 00:32:48,396
Speaker 1: self conscious and insecure and worried that I'm going to

574
00:32:48,436 --> 00:32:50,956
Speaker 1: offend people? Well, first of all, I don't have a

575
00:32:50,956 --> 00:32:54,396
Speaker 1: hall pass, So like, I mean, I imagine your friends

576
00:32:54,396 --> 00:32:56,076
Speaker 1: are like my friends, Like it's my friends who tease

577
00:32:56,116 --> 00:32:59,076
Speaker 1: me the most, right, So so literally now in my gatherings,

578
00:32:59,076 --> 00:33:03,916
Speaker 1: I outsource. Oh that's interesting. I outsource like often almost

579
00:33:03,956 --> 00:33:05,876
Speaker 1: to a fault. I outsource to the person in the

580
00:33:05,956 --> 00:33:10,676
Speaker 1: room that's the most unexpected person to ding the bell

581
00:33:10,796 --> 00:33:12,996
Speaker 1: or to run the game. Right, It's like I understand

582
00:33:13,116 --> 00:33:15,316
Speaker 1: power and context. And so I'll say a couple of things.

583
00:33:15,316 --> 00:33:18,756
Speaker 1: One is, all pop up rules are not good, Like

584
00:33:18,796 --> 00:33:21,156
Speaker 1: I wouldn't create this pop up rule in a vacuum. First,

585
00:33:21,236 --> 00:33:25,556
Speaker 1: what's the need? Then? Is this need perceived by my guests?

586
00:33:25,636 --> 00:33:27,516
Speaker 1: Or am I in lala land? Right? If you're trying

587
00:33:27,556 --> 00:33:29,356
Speaker 1: to shift the way you do Thanksgiving or shift the

588
00:33:29,356 --> 00:33:31,436
Speaker 1: way you do Stater, it's not going to work. You

589
00:33:31,476 --> 00:33:33,156
Speaker 1: send out an email to everybody and say, you know what,

590
00:33:33,276 --> 00:33:37,276
Speaker 1: let's do it differently this year. No, you organize, you rally,

591
00:33:37,756 --> 00:33:40,396
Speaker 1: You text the cousins that you know hate the same

592
00:33:40,436 --> 00:33:42,436
Speaker 1: way that is done every year. You start to have

593
00:33:42,476 --> 00:33:45,356
Speaker 1: conversations with them, You ask them what they might need.

594
00:33:45,636 --> 00:33:48,316
Speaker 1: You then go to the grandmother who actually secretly is

595
00:33:48,356 --> 00:33:50,476
Speaker 1: also bored and doesn't like cooking for two days and

596
00:33:50,516 --> 00:33:52,356
Speaker 1: wants to shift it but doesn't know how. Right, if

597
00:33:52,396 --> 00:33:55,276
Speaker 1: you pre work exactly, do pre work and all I'm

598
00:33:55,316 --> 00:33:58,556
Speaker 1: saying is it's the beginning of the conversation, not the end.

599
00:33:59,036 --> 00:34:02,396
Speaker 1: I often say to my clients gatherings are trojan horses

600
00:34:03,516 --> 00:34:05,996
Speaker 1: because you think you're planning the scent of like event

601
00:34:06,156 --> 00:34:09,036
Speaker 1: with just all the logistics, but actually the higher state

602
00:34:09,116 --> 00:34:12,956
Speaker 1: makes the gathering. But more it's a forcing mechanism for

603
00:34:13,036 --> 00:34:15,876
Speaker 1: people to actually make the implicit explicit, to say what

604
00:34:15,916 --> 00:34:17,996
Speaker 1: do they care about? Who should be invited in, why,

605
00:34:18,316 --> 00:34:21,036
Speaker 1: how should we actually spend our time? And that ends

606
00:34:21,076 --> 00:34:25,036
Speaker 1: up becoming this conversation where the gathering becomes just a

607
00:34:25,076 --> 00:34:28,116
Speaker 1: symptom of thinking and decisions. It's the process of getting

608
00:34:28,116 --> 00:34:34,236
Speaker 1: there that shifts the community. As we think about structuring gatherings,

609
00:34:34,276 --> 00:34:37,436
Speaker 1: it can be so tempting to try and avoid any

610
00:34:37,596 --> 00:34:41,676
Speaker 1: kind of controversy or conflict, right, to avoid hot button topics.

611
00:34:42,396 --> 00:34:45,356
Speaker 1: But you do caution against this way of thinking, you know,

612
00:34:45,396 --> 00:34:48,236
Speaker 1: I said earlier when our conversation first began. When my

613
00:34:48,276 --> 00:34:51,316
Speaker 1: parents separated, everyone was shocked because they never fought. Yeah.

614
00:34:51,956 --> 00:34:56,596
Speaker 1: And as a facilitator, I work within a lot of organizations,

615
00:34:56,636 --> 00:35:01,396
Speaker 1: within movements, within intergenerational families, and particularly in the workplace.

616
00:35:01,836 --> 00:35:03,836
Speaker 1: This is slightly changed of the last two years but

617
00:35:04,076 --> 00:35:07,596
Speaker 1: so much of our context, so many organizations, so many teams,

618
00:35:07,756 --> 00:35:13,916
Speaker 1: suffer more from unhealthy peace than from unhealthy conflict. And

619
00:35:15,356 --> 00:35:19,916
Speaker 1: part of meaningful gatherings or effective gatherings is to begin

620
00:35:19,996 --> 00:35:22,916
Speaker 1: to understand how do we talk about the things of

621
00:35:22,996 --> 00:35:28,476
Speaker 1: relevance to our community without burning the house down right,

622
00:35:28,956 --> 00:35:32,516
Speaker 1: And so I'll give a simple example. It could be Thanksgiving,

623
00:35:33,116 --> 00:35:35,716
Speaker 1: It could be a family reunion with a lot of

624
00:35:35,716 --> 00:35:38,956
Speaker 1: complicated dynamics, it could be a retreat with a lot

625
00:35:38,956 --> 00:35:42,916
Speaker 1: of tension. One of the kind of simple principles in facilitation,

626
00:35:42,996 --> 00:35:49,516
Speaker 1: but it's incredibly helpful, is people's stories and experiences are

627
00:35:49,556 --> 00:35:53,316
Speaker 1: almost always more interesting than their opinions, and so to

628
00:35:53,436 --> 00:35:57,396
Speaker 1: find structures that allow people to share their stories so

629
00:35:57,436 --> 00:36:03,156
Speaker 1: you're still having meaningful conversation without getting into the you know,

630
00:36:03,836 --> 00:36:06,956
Speaker 1: cold war or hot war. And so you know, I

631
00:36:07,036 --> 00:36:09,476
Speaker 1: talk about this book. I have a process in vented

632
00:36:09,476 --> 00:36:12,756
Speaker 1: called fifteen toasts, and we created in part to help

633
00:36:12,876 --> 00:36:17,356
Speaker 1: larger groups have meaningful conversation that's equitable, that's interesting, And

634
00:36:17,436 --> 00:36:21,156
Speaker 1: you choose a theme. It could be conflict, it could

635
00:36:21,196 --> 00:36:24,916
Speaker 1: be vision, it could be beauty, it could be anything,

636
00:36:25,436 --> 00:36:27,516
Speaker 1: and you ask people at some point in the night

637
00:36:27,556 --> 00:36:29,836
Speaker 1: to stand up old school style if it's available to them,

638
00:36:29,916 --> 00:36:33,636
Speaker 1: ding their glass and share an experience or a story

639
00:36:33,716 --> 00:36:35,876
Speaker 1: that no one else in the room has ever heard about,

640
00:36:35,956 --> 00:36:39,076
Speaker 1: what it's taught them about, whatever the theme is. And

641
00:36:39,116 --> 00:36:41,236
Speaker 1: the only other rule is that the last person has

642
00:36:41,236 --> 00:36:44,356
Speaker 1: to sing their toast, and that just kind of moves

643
00:36:44,356 --> 00:36:47,756
Speaker 1: the night along. We tend to throw the baby out

644
00:36:47,756 --> 00:36:50,756
Speaker 1: with the bathwater because there's so many mind fields we

645
00:36:50,796 --> 00:36:53,756
Speaker 1: decide not to talk about anything, but there's actually ways

646
00:36:53,796 --> 00:36:57,996
Speaker 1: to still have meaningful conversation and connect without all having

647
00:36:58,116 --> 00:37:01,716
Speaker 1: being the same, and in certain contexts, asking people to

648
00:37:01,756 --> 00:37:04,556
Speaker 1: share stories or share experiences is a much better way

649
00:37:04,596 --> 00:37:08,556
Speaker 1: than getting into a debate about whatever recent thing. Oh yeah,

650
00:37:08,596 --> 00:37:12,156
Speaker 1: I mean very hard to have so many defenses up

651
00:37:12,236 --> 00:37:16,236
Speaker 1: when people are just sharing sharing personal stories. I would

652
00:37:16,276 --> 00:37:17,756
Speaker 1: love to end on a personal note. You know, A

653
00:37:17,796 --> 00:37:21,156
Speaker 1: slight change of Plants is very much about personal stories

654
00:37:21,156 --> 00:37:24,556
Speaker 1: of transformation, and I'm just so curious to hear how

655
00:37:24,596 --> 00:37:27,236
Speaker 1: has working in the area of gatherings changed you as

656
00:37:27,276 --> 00:37:30,596
Speaker 1: a person, You know, your worldview or your understanding of

657
00:37:31,036 --> 00:37:36,196
Speaker 1: human beings at our core. It's changed me as a

658
00:37:36,236 --> 00:37:42,236
Speaker 1: person in part because I often thought like change kind

659
00:37:42,236 --> 00:37:45,156
Speaker 1: of happens out there, or like I don't really know

660
00:37:45,276 --> 00:37:48,076
Speaker 1: or understand where and how culture happens. It just kind

661
00:37:48,076 --> 00:37:52,476
Speaker 1: of happens. And I think what working specifically and deeply

662
00:37:52,836 --> 00:37:57,556
Speaker 1: in the field of gathering is it's helped me realize

663
00:37:58,836 --> 00:38:02,756
Speaker 1: that there's a successible way that's already in our life,

664
00:38:02,756 --> 00:38:07,556
Speaker 1: it's baked into our everyday life, that is kind of

665
00:38:07,556 --> 00:38:11,756
Speaker 1: like a magic wand the way that we come together

666
00:38:12,636 --> 00:38:17,196
Speaker 1: is invented. We literally make it up or someone else did,

667
00:38:17,316 --> 00:38:20,556
Speaker 1: and then we're following it. And it's just it's like

668
00:38:21,116 --> 00:38:25,436
Speaker 1: we can choose and help persuade other people and shape

669
00:38:25,436 --> 00:38:29,316
Speaker 1: them and grapple with how should we actually spend our time.

670
00:38:29,756 --> 00:38:32,196
Speaker 1: And I think I used to kind of like a child,

671
00:38:32,196 --> 00:38:34,036
Speaker 1: I thought of like as magic as like out there,

672
00:38:34,196 --> 00:38:37,676
Speaker 1: like you know, superpowers are in TV shows. And I

673
00:38:37,716 --> 00:38:40,196
Speaker 1: think what it's made me see is like this is

674
00:38:40,236 --> 00:38:46,036
Speaker 1: a form of magic if you define magic as creating

675
00:38:46,636 --> 00:38:51,716
Speaker 1: a set of ingredients that have the possibility to alter things,

676
00:38:51,916 --> 00:38:54,756
Speaker 1: to alter people, myself included. And so I think it's

677
00:38:54,836 --> 00:38:59,196
Speaker 1: changed me by feeling like magic is closer than you think.

678
00:39:02,276 --> 00:39:05,716
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you so much for having me.

679
00:39:06,076 --> 00:39:08,556
Speaker 1: I loved it. It's it's beautiful to be in conversation

680
00:39:08,636 --> 00:39:33,636
Speaker 1: with you. Hey, thanks for listening. Next week, we'll replay

681
00:39:33,756 --> 00:39:37,396
Speaker 1: one of our most popular science episodes, The Science of Quitting,

682
00:39:37,476 --> 00:39:40,676
Speaker 1: with Annie Duke. The following week, we'll hear from one

683
00:39:40,716 --> 00:39:45,556
Speaker 1: of my favorite singer songwriters, Jason Izbel. After wrestling with addiction,

684
00:39:45,756 --> 00:39:50,236
Speaker 1: Jason realized that most mainstream narratives about sobriety were too simplistic,

685
00:39:50,756 --> 00:39:54,236
Speaker 1: so he wrote his own. As time passed, I came

686
00:39:54,316 --> 00:39:58,636
Speaker 1: to terms was the idea that there were good things

687
00:39:58,956 --> 00:40:01,516
Speaker 1: and bad things about the person that I used to be.

688
00:40:03,276 --> 00:40:05,716
Speaker 1: But at first it was really hard to do because

689
00:40:06,236 --> 00:40:10,916
Speaker 1: there was a danger, you know, at every turn, I

690
00:40:10,956 --> 00:40:24,076
Speaker 1: was looking for ways to keep myself from backsliding. A

691
00:40:24,156 --> 00:40:27,476
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created, written an executive produced

692
00:40:27,516 --> 00:40:30,996
Speaker 1: by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our

693
00:40:30,996 --> 00:40:35,476
Speaker 1: showrunner Tyler Green, our story editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our

694
00:40:35,556 --> 00:40:39,996
Speaker 1: sound engineer Andrew Vestola, and our associate producer Sarah McCrae.

695
00:40:40,556 --> 00:40:43,796
Speaker 1: Louise Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith

696
00:40:43,876 --> 00:40:46,876
Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is

697
00:40:46,916 --> 00:40:50,356
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries so big thanks to everyone there,

698
00:40:50,996 --> 00:40:54,116
Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.

699
00:40:55,116 --> 00:40:57,556
Speaker 1: You can follow a slight change of plans on Instagram

700
00:40:57,596 --> 00:41:22,636
Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Shunker. See you next week. Side note, Um,

701
00:41:22,996 --> 00:41:25,036
Speaker 1: you know I love my husband Jimmy very much and

702
00:41:25,116 --> 00:41:27,236
Speaker 1: I hope we do stay together forever. But the number

703
00:41:27,236 --> 00:41:29,996
Speaker 1: one reason why I hope we stay together is because

704
00:41:30,236 --> 00:41:32,476
Speaker 1: I don't have it in me to plan the second wedding.

705
00:41:35,156 --> 00:41:44,436
Speaker 1: It's too much. You're too much. Sorry,