Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: Four words have been said in countless movies with anger,
Speaker 1: sorrow or relief, I want a divorce, So did you design?
Speaker 1: Will more Americans be saying I want a divorce after
Speaker 1: the pandemic? It's no secret that living in isolation with
Speaker 1: your spouse during these trying times can cause tension, conflict,
Speaker 1: and stress. If China is any example, divorces will skyrocket.
Speaker 1: Many cities in China are reporting a record high number
Speaker 1: of divorce filings after couples began to emerge from mandated shutdowns,
Speaker 1: leading to long backlogs at government offices where clerks are
Speaker 1: struggling to keep up. Joining me is Peter Stambleck, a
Speaker 1: partner at Aaronson, Mayevski and Sloan, a matrimonial law firm. Peter,
Speaker 1: have you been seeing an uptick in calls from people
Speaker 1: wanting a divorce during the pandemic in the past week?
Speaker 1: There has been a bit of an uptick up until
Speaker 1: this point. The truth of the matter is things have
Speaker 1: been a bit quiet, and that was anticipated as people
Speaker 1: are confined in their own space with the uncertainty that
Speaker 1: presents itself. Couples are not necessarily running into more uncertainty,
Speaker 1: in other words, into a divorce. As things begin to
Speaker 1: open up and the courts begin to open up, offices
Speaker 1: begin to open up, we expect to see a large
Speaker 1: uptick in our planning accordingly. So now the uptick this
Speaker 1: week is that due to New York courts lifting the
Speaker 1: moratorium on new cases as of Monday, new actions, brand
Speaker 1: new litigation was able to be commenced. Prior to that,
Speaker 1: it was only matters that were deemed essential were permitted,
Speaker 1: So our hands were tied on many different levels. If
Speaker 1: somebody reached out to us and wanted to commence an
Speaker 1: action for divorce, we were not permitted to do so.
Speaker 1: Effective Monday, we are now permitted to do so. I
Speaker 1: actually don't think that it has to do necessarily with
Speaker 1: the courts opening up. I actually think it has to
Speaker 1: do with the state opening up and the country opening
Speaker 1: up a little bit, piece by piece, phase by phase.
Speaker 1: I believe that that is going to be the crux
Speaker 1: of what gets people back into the process, whether they
Speaker 1: were contemplating it prior to the pandemic and just waited
Speaker 1: it out, whether or not the pandemic and being isolated
Speaker 1: with their spouse created additional frictions, or they're already underlying
Speaker 1: issues and the pandemic just exascerbated them. Those are the
Speaker 1: reasons that people are calling us, and I do believe it.
Speaker 1: It has little to do with the courts and is
Speaker 1: more have to do with, believe it or not, the weather,
Speaker 1: people getting outside, Memorial Day, the state opening up more,
Speaker 1: country opening up a little bit more. Even if just
Speaker 1: it's the perception, I believe that's what the uptick this
Speaker 1: past week or so has has been a result of.
Speaker 1: In times of crisis, whether national crisis or personal crisis,
Speaker 1: do you often see an increase in divorces. But I
Speaker 1: think problems in marriages are most certainly magnified during a crisis.
Speaker 1: And needless to say, this is a crisis like we've
Speaker 1: never seen before, especially given that we've been in isolation
Speaker 1: with our families, with our spouses for the better part
Speaker 1: of March April May, over three months now. I don't
Speaker 1: think we've seen a crisis that has caused couples and
Speaker 1: families to be in such close quarters for such a
Speaker 1: period of time. I was thinking about this the other day.
Speaker 1: If you just take a quick look back prior to
Speaker 1: the pandemic, what our typical day was like for couples.
Speaker 1: They got up, you know, they spent a little bit
Speaker 1: time together in the morning, they went off to work,
Speaker 1: they did their things, they came back, they spent a
Speaker 1: little bit of time together in the evenings. Certainly more
Speaker 1: time together on the weekends. Anybody who's kids know, as
Speaker 1: you're running around on the weekends with your kids, So
Speaker 1: this is unprecedented time being spent with your spouse. After
Speaker 1: the crash in two thousand eight, we saw an uptick uncertainty,
Speaker 1: and I expect that our phones will continue to ring,
Speaker 1: and we will continue to see an uptick in people
Speaker 1: who realize life is too short and there were problems
Speaker 1: to begin with, Now is an opportune time to to
Speaker 1: get out. I think that for all those reasons, we
Speaker 1: will probably see an increase in rates. And the pandemic
Speaker 1: is the undercurrent of all that. So now you're going
Speaker 1: to have some people with less money, some people unemployed
Speaker 1: for one case, that are down, bank accounts that are down.
Speaker 1: Is there a detriment or benefit to getting divorced now?
Speaker 1: And does it depend on how much money you have?
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I guess it depends on what
Speaker 1: side you're on. So the things that you've just identified
Speaker 1: certainly provide incentive to the so called money spouse, the
Speaker 1: wage earner, or the asset holder. You know, the crux
Speaker 1: of a divorce is valuing and dividing assets. So what
Speaker 1: assets will be worth on the other side of this
Speaker 1: pandemic right now is without question unknown. But for most
Speaker 1: businesses and most assets, especially small businesses and small business owners,
Speaker 1: the predictions from across the board are that these assets
Speaker 1: will be worth far less. New York City real estate,
Speaker 1: for instance, maybe taking a hit as well as a
Speaker 1: result of people wanting out of the city. Certainly portfolios
Speaker 1: are down. Defer, compensation values are down. So for the
Speaker 1: moneyed spouse it is an opportune time to commence an
Speaker 1: action for divorce. The less things are valued, the less
Speaker 1: there is to share, especially if that particular spouse feels
Speaker 1: that at some point in the not too distance future,
Speaker 1: he or she may get back on his or her feet,
Speaker 1: or values may ultimately increase because anything that theoretically is
Speaker 1: accumulated post divorce or host commencement of a divorce would
Speaker 1: not be subject to distribution so that's one incentive for
Speaker 1: the moneyed spouse to pursue a divorce. Now. Another reason
Speaker 1: maybe that support, both child and spousal support is an issue,
Speaker 1: and if those issues need to be addressed, the less
Speaker 1: a spouse made, the less In theory he or she
Speaker 1: would be paying in both spousal and child support. Support
Speaker 1: is primarily based on income, and if income is down,
Speaker 1: one is going to be expected to pay less support,
Speaker 1: so there is real incentive obviously if if somebody was
Speaker 1: thinking about a divorce or the pandemic push them through divorce,
Speaker 1: there is certainly incentive at this juncture for the quote
Speaker 1: unquote moneyed spouse to push forward with this now as
Speaker 1: opposed to later. On the flip side of it, you know,
Speaker 1: the non money spouse may not be in a great position.
Speaker 1: They may want to hold off to see how things rebound.
Speaker 1: But of course, in most states it really only takes
Speaker 1: one party to pursue the divorce action. And I wonder
Speaker 1: if some couples who don't have money might be holding
Speaker 1: out now because of the cost of divorce and also
Speaker 1: having to split things up, having to have two residences
Speaker 1: and health insurance. Absolutely divorces costly, and I don't necessarily
Speaker 1: mean the process. You have to replicate two households. You
Speaker 1: need to take whatever income stream exists at the time,
Speaker 1: and you need to kind of split that amongst two households,
Speaker 1: and two households are just more expensive than one. Health
Speaker 1: insurance is a huge issue. So those are certainly reasons
Speaker 1: why I think pandemic or no pandemic, those are reasons
Speaker 1: why people don't get divorced in the first place, even
Speaker 1: if they live separate lives. Throughout my career, I've met
Speaker 1: with numerous people who have stayed in the marriage but
Speaker 1: live completely separate lives except financially, because they just can't
Speaker 1: afford to They can't afford to get that second house,
Speaker 1: and they can't afford to get their own insurance, so
Speaker 1: they stay married. There must be thousands and thousands of
Speaker 1: couples around the country who who do that. Have you
Speaker 1: gotten calls about problems with child custody or visitation during
Speaker 1: the pandemic, for example, issues about children traveling from parent
Speaker 1: to parent, So that's that's kind of eased a little bit.
Speaker 1: But at the very beginning you had people beholding their
Speaker 1: ground mothers or fathers, not trusting what the other parent
Speaker 1: was doing, or where they were, who they were with
Speaker 1: that they were taking social distancing and the quarantine seriously enough.
Speaker 1: You had people who maybe even started their spring break
Speaker 1: somewhere and weren't willing to come home. What we found
Speaker 1: is that to the extent that we were able to
Speaker 1: get in touch with the courts, the majority of the
Speaker 1: judges and the courts wanted the parties to adhere to
Speaker 1: the parenting schedule that was implemented prior to that absolutely
Speaker 1: unique circumstance. They wanted the parents to adhere to the
Speaker 1: schedule that they had previously agreed to. Judge Sunshine, who
Speaker 1: is out of Brooklyn, he issued a statement the New
Speaker 1: Yorkloor Journal maybe in late March early April, basically noting
Speaker 1: that parents should adhere to the schedules that they previously
Speaker 1: agreed to, and if they take it upon themselves or
Speaker 1: engage in what we call self help, with the theory
Speaker 1: that nobody can run into court where the courts were
Speaker 1: backed up or closed, that one day soon those parents
Speaker 1: would be before the court and not liking what he
Speaker 1: or she would be here. So, by all accounts, the
Speaker 1: courts were trying to direct that parents were cooperatively during
Speaker 1: this difficult time, take this seriously, but adhere to the
Speaker 1: schedule that had been administered to. Obviously, with everything that
Speaker 1: we've had, we experienced a handful of cases here and
Speaker 1: there where phone calls were required with the court where
Speaker 1: motions had to be made with the court to ask
Speaker 1: that a parent abide by the schedule. But truth be told,
Speaker 1: a lot of parents stepped up to the plate and
Speaker 1: did the right thing and work cooperatively. And whether it's
Speaker 1: altering their schedule or just getting the children back and
Speaker 1: forth to the necessary place, a lot of parents stepped
Speaker 1: up to the plate. I certainly saw that. Quite frankly,
Speaker 1: I think I saw that more then I saw adversarial behavior.
Speaker 1: Domestic violence calls have been on the rise during the pandemic.
Speaker 1: Have victims of domestic violence been able to get help
Speaker 1: from the courts? They were? The Family Court was open
Speaker 1: for domestic violence related issues emergency filings. That was one
Speaker 1: of the matters wherein you were able to get into
Speaker 1: court immediately from day one. That was part of the
Speaker 1: essential matters that could be filed in court from day one,
Speaker 1: at least in New York, you were able to get
Speaker 1: in right away. By all accounts, and by the people.
Speaker 1: I've spoken with um an officer of the Family Law
Speaker 1: section of the New York State Bar Association, so have
Speaker 1: a lot of communication with attorneys from across the state.
Speaker 1: The calls have been substantially increased across the country for
Speaker 1: domestic violence related issues. Thanks Peter. That's Peter stand Black
Speaker 1: of Aaron Senmayevski and Sloan. And that's it for the
Speaker 1: edition of Bloomberg Long I'm June Grosso. Thanks so much
Speaker 1: for listening, and remember to tune to The Bloomberg Long
Speaker 1: Show weeknights at anth m Eastern right here on Bloomberg Radio.