WEBVTT - Spike in Divorces Likely After the Lockdowns 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:05.680 You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.000 Four words have been said in countless movies with anger, 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:20.200 sorrow or relief, I want a divorce, So did you design? 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:25.160 Will more Americans be saying I want a divorce after 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:28.600 the pandemic? It's no secret that living in isolation with 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:32.440 your spouse during these trying times can cause tension, conflict, 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:37.080 and stress. If China is any example, divorces will skyrocket. 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:40.280 Many cities in China are reporting a record high number 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:44.720 of divorce filings after couples began to emerge from mandated shutdowns, 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.479 leading to long backlogs at government offices where clerks are 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:51.400 struggling to keep up. Joining me is Peter Stambleck, a 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:55.440 partner at Aaronson, Mayevski and Sloan, a matrimonial law firm. Peter, 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:57.880 have you been seeing an uptick in calls from people 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.680 wanting a divorce during the pandemic in the past week? 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.360 There has been a bit of an uptick up until 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:06.840 this point. The truth of the matter is things have 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.840 been a bit quiet, and that was anticipated as people 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:15.840 are confined in their own space with the uncertainty that 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:22.800 presents itself. Couples are not necessarily running into more uncertainty, 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.720 in other words, into a divorce. As things begin to 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:31.080 open up and the courts begin to open up, offices 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:35.200 begin to open up, we expect to see a large 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:39.560 uptick in our planning accordingly. So now the uptick this 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:43.039 week is that due to New York courts lifting the 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:48.680 moratorium on new cases as of Monday, new actions, brand 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.680 new litigation was able to be commenced. Prior to that, 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:56.680 it was only matters that were deemed essential were permitted, 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:00.240 So our hands were tied on many different levels. If 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:02.560 somebody reached out to us and wanted to commence an 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.000 action for divorce, we were not permitted to do so. 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.880 Effective Monday, we are now permitted to do so. I 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:13.680 actually don't think that it has to do necessarily with 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.360 the courts opening up. I actually think it has to 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:20.120 do with the state opening up and the country opening 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:22.919 up a little bit, piece by piece, phase by phase. 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:26.840 I believe that that is going to be the crux 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:30.880 of what gets people back into the process, whether they 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:34.440 were contemplating it prior to the pandemic and just waited 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:38.480 it out, whether or not the pandemic and being isolated 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:44.359 with their spouse created additional frictions, or they're already underlying 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.920 issues and the pandemic just exascerbated them. Those are the 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:52.000 reasons that people are calling us, and I do believe it. 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:53.480 It has little to do with the courts and is 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:55.360 more have to do with, believe it or not, the weather, 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.720 people getting outside, Memorial Day, the state opening up more, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.040 country opening up a little bit more. Even if just 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.639 it's the perception, I believe that's what the uptick this 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:08.840 past week or so has has been a result of. 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:13.720 In times of crisis, whether national crisis or personal crisis, 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.360 do you often see an increase in divorces. But I 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:21.160 think problems in marriages are most certainly magnified during a crisis. 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:23.919 And needless to say, this is a crisis like we've 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:28.200 never seen before, especially given that we've been in isolation 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.880 with our families, with our spouses for the better part 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.359 of March April May, over three months now. I don't 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.960 think we've seen a crisis that has caused couples and 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:40.960 families to be in such close quarters for such a 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:43.120 period of time. I was thinking about this the other day. 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.480 If you just take a quick look back prior to 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.800 the pandemic, what our typical day was like for couples. 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:51.280 They got up, you know, they spent a little bit 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:52.920 time together in the morning, they went off to work, 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:55.120 they did their things, they came back, they spent a 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:57.520 little bit of time together in the evenings. Certainly more 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.120 time together on the weekends. Anybody who's kids know, as 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:02.760 you're running around on the weekends with your kids, So 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:07.320 this is unprecedented time being spent with your spouse. After 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:10.640 the crash in two thousand eight, we saw an uptick uncertainty, 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:13.960 and I expect that our phones will continue to ring, 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:16.839 and we will continue to see an uptick in people 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:20.240 who realize life is too short and there were problems 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.080 to begin with, Now is an opportune time to to 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.159 get out. I think that for all those reasons, we 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.240 will probably see an increase in rates. And the pandemic 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.120 is the undercurrent of all that. So now you're going 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:37.320 to have some people with less money, some people unemployed 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.159 for one case, that are down, bank accounts that are down. 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:46.080 Is there a detriment or benefit to getting divorced now? 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.320 And does it depend on how much money you have? 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:50.200 I was gonna say, I guess it depends on what 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:53.920 side you're on. So the things that you've just identified 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:58.480 certainly provide incentive to the so called money spouse, the 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:02.320 wage earner, or the asset holder. You know, the crux 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.960 of a divorce is valuing and dividing assets. So what 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.400 assets will be worth on the other side of this 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:13.799 pandemic right now is without question unknown. But for most 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:18.640 businesses and most assets, especially small businesses and small business owners, 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.760 the predictions from across the board are that these assets 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.400 will be worth far less. New York City real estate, 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.640 for instance, maybe taking a hit as well as a 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:31.000 result of people wanting out of the city. Certainly portfolios 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:34.640 are down. Defer, compensation values are down. So for the 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:40.120 moneyed spouse it is an opportune time to commence an 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:43.720 action for divorce. The less things are valued, the less 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.880 there is to share, especially if that particular spouse feels 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:50.520 that at some point in the not too distance future, 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:53.480 he or she may get back on his or her feet, 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:57.800 or values may ultimately increase because anything that theoretically is 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:02.039 accumulated post divorce or host commencement of a divorce would 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.400 not be subject to distribution so that's one incentive for 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.480 the moneyed spouse to pursue a divorce. Now. Another reason 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.920 maybe that support, both child and spousal support is an issue, 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.960 and if those issues need to be addressed, the less 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.320 a spouse made, the less In theory he or she 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.760 would be paying in both spousal and child support. Support 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.760 is primarily based on income, and if income is down, 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.479 one is going to be expected to pay less support, 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.640 so there is real incentive obviously if if somebody was 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.760 thinking about a divorce or the pandemic push them through divorce, 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:41.000 there is certainly incentive at this juncture for the quote 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:45.560 unquote moneyed spouse to push forward with this now as 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.000 opposed to later. On the flip side of it, you know, 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:52.000 the non money spouse may not be in a great position. 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.760 They may want to hold off to see how things rebound. 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.280 But of course, in most states it really only takes 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.279 one party to pursue the divorce action. And I wonder 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:04.160 if some couples who don't have money might be holding 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:07.520 out now because of the cost of divorce and also 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.760 having to split things up, having to have two residences 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:16.680 and health insurance. Absolutely divorces costly, and I don't necessarily 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.080 mean the process. You have to replicate two households. You 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:24.160 need to take whatever income stream exists at the time, 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.360 and you need to kind of split that amongst two households, 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:31.920 and two households are just more expensive than one. Health 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:35.360 insurance is a huge issue. So those are certainly reasons 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:39.080 why I think pandemic or no pandemic, those are reasons 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.240 why people don't get divorced in the first place, even 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.080 if they live separate lives. Throughout my career, I've met 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.520 with numerous people who have stayed in the marriage but 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.480 live completely separate lives except financially, because they just can't 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:53.800 afford to They can't afford to get that second house, 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:56.440 and they can't afford to get their own insurance, so 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:59.320 they stay married. There must be thousands and thousands of 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.120 couples around the country who who do that. Have you 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:06.360 gotten calls about problems with child custody or visitation during 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:10.640 the pandemic, for example, issues about children traveling from parent 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.480 to parent, So that's that's kind of eased a little bit. 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.520 But at the very beginning you had people beholding their 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.400 ground mothers or fathers, not trusting what the other parent 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:22.120 was doing, or where they were, who they were with 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:26.400 that they were taking social distancing and the quarantine seriously enough. 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.360 You had people who maybe even started their spring break 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:33.240 somewhere and weren't willing to come home. What we found 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.880 is that to the extent that we were able to 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.920 get in touch with the courts, the majority of the 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:45.079 judges and the courts wanted the parties to adhere to 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.360 the parenting schedule that was implemented prior to that absolutely 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.920 unique circumstance. They wanted the parents to adhere to the 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:57.360 schedule that they had previously agreed to. Judge Sunshine, who 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.160 is out of Brooklyn, he issued a statement the New 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:05.640 Yorkloor Journal maybe in late March early April, basically noting 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:10.280 that parents should adhere to the schedules that they previously 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.560 agreed to, and if they take it upon themselves or 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:17.440 engage in what we call self help, with the theory 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:19.959 that nobody can run into court where the courts were 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:24.480 backed up or closed, that one day soon those parents 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:28.240 would be before the court and not liking what he 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.200 or she would be here. So, by all accounts, the 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:35.040 courts were trying to direct that parents were cooperatively during 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.560 this difficult time, take this seriously, but adhere to the 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.960 schedule that had been administered to. Obviously, with everything that 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:45.600 we've had, we experienced a handful of cases here and 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:48.480 there where phone calls were required with the court where 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.199 motions had to be made with the court to ask 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.600 that a parent abide by the schedule. But truth be told, 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:56.520 a lot of parents stepped up to the plate and 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.480 did the right thing and work cooperatively. And whether it's 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.400 altering their schedule or just getting the children back and 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.760 forth to the necessary place, a lot of parents stepped 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.680 up to the plate. I certainly saw that. Quite frankly, 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:12.840 I think I saw that more then I saw adversarial behavior. 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:17.000 Domestic violence calls have been on the rise during the pandemic. 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.560 Have victims of domestic violence been able to get help 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:24.160 from the courts? They were? The Family Court was open 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:29.240 for domestic violence related issues emergency filings. That was one 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.480 of the matters wherein you were able to get into 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.560 court immediately from day one. That was part of the 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:38.559 essential matters that could be filed in court from day one, 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.440 at least in New York, you were able to get 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.680 in right away. By all accounts, and by the people. 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.120 I've spoken with um an officer of the Family Law 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:48.079 section of the New York State Bar Association, so have 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.600 a lot of communication with attorneys from across the state. 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:55.120 The calls have been substantially increased across the country for 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:59.520 domestic violence related issues. Thanks Peter. That's Peter stand Black 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.240 of Aaron Senmayevski and Sloan. And that's it for the 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.719 edition of Bloomberg Long I'm June Grosso. Thanks so much 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.439 for listening, and remember to tune to The Bloomberg Long 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.560 Show weeknights at anth m Eastern right here on Bloomberg Radio.