1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: Four words have been said in countless movies with anger, 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: sorrow or relief, I want a divorce, So did you design? 4 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: Will more Americans be saying I want a divorce after 5 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: the pandemic? It's no secret that living in isolation with 6 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: your spouse during these trying times can cause tension, conflict, 7 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: and stress. If China is any example, divorces will skyrocket. 8 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: Many cities in China are reporting a record high number 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: of divorce filings after couples began to emerge from mandated shutdowns, 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: leading to long backlogs at government offices where clerks are 11 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: struggling to keep up. Joining me is Peter Stambleck, a 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: partner at Aaronson, Mayevski and Sloan, a matrimonial law firm. Peter, 13 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: have you been seeing an uptick in calls from people 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: wanting a divorce during the pandemic in the past week? 15 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: There has been a bit of an uptick up until 16 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: this point. The truth of the matter is things have 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: been a bit quiet, and that was anticipated as people 18 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: are confined in their own space with the uncertainty that 19 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: presents itself. Couples are not necessarily running into more uncertainty, 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: in other words, into a divorce. As things begin to 21 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: open up and the courts begin to open up, offices 22 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: begin to open up, we expect to see a large 23 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: uptick in our planning accordingly. So now the uptick this 24 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: week is that due to New York courts lifting the 25 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: moratorium on new cases as of Monday, new actions, brand 26 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: new litigation was able to be commenced. Prior to that, 27 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: it was only matters that were deemed essential were permitted, 28 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: So our hands were tied on many different levels. If 29 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: somebody reached out to us and wanted to commence an 30 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: action for divorce, we were not permitted to do so. 31 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: Effective Monday, we are now permitted to do so. I 32 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: actually don't think that it has to do necessarily with 33 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: the courts opening up. I actually think it has to 34 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: do with the state opening up and the country opening 35 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: up a little bit, piece by piece, phase by phase. 36 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: I believe that that is going to be the crux 37 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: of what gets people back into the process, whether they 38 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: were contemplating it prior to the pandemic and just waited 39 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: it out, whether or not the pandemic and being isolated 40 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: with their spouse created additional frictions, or they're already underlying 41 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: issues and the pandemic just exascerbated them. Those are the 42 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: reasons that people are calling us, and I do believe it. 43 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: It has little to do with the courts and is 44 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: more have to do with, believe it or not, the weather, 45 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: people getting outside, Memorial Day, the state opening up more, 46 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: country opening up a little bit more. Even if just 47 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: it's the perception, I believe that's what the uptick this 48 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: past week or so has has been a result of. 49 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: In times of crisis, whether national crisis or personal crisis, 50 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: do you often see an increase in divorces. But I 51 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: think problems in marriages are most certainly magnified during a crisis. 52 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: And needless to say, this is a crisis like we've 53 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: never seen before, especially given that we've been in isolation 54 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: with our families, with our spouses for the better part 55 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: of March April May, over three months now. I don't 56 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: think we've seen a crisis that has caused couples and 57 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: families to be in such close quarters for such a 58 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: period of time. I was thinking about this the other day. 59 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: If you just take a quick look back prior to 60 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: the pandemic, what our typical day was like for couples. 61 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: They got up, you know, they spent a little bit 62 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: time together in the morning, they went off to work, 63 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: they did their things, they came back, they spent a 64 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: little bit of time together in the evenings. Certainly more 65 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: time together on the weekends. Anybody who's kids know, as 66 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: you're running around on the weekends with your kids, So 67 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: this is unprecedented time being spent with your spouse. After 68 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: the crash in two thousand eight, we saw an uptick uncertainty, 69 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: and I expect that our phones will continue to ring, 70 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: and we will continue to see an uptick in people 71 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: who realize life is too short and there were problems 72 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: to begin with, Now is an opportune time to to 73 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: get out. I think that for all those reasons, we 74 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: will probably see an increase in rates. And the pandemic 75 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: is the undercurrent of all that. So now you're going 76 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: to have some people with less money, some people unemployed 77 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: for one case, that are down, bank accounts that are down. 78 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: Is there a detriment or benefit to getting divorced now? 79 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: And does it depend on how much money you have? 80 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I guess it depends on what 81 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: side you're on. So the things that you've just identified 82 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: certainly provide incentive to the so called money spouse, the 83 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: wage earner, or the asset holder. You know, the crux 84 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: of a divorce is valuing and dividing assets. So what 85 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: assets will be worth on the other side of this 86 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:13,799 Speaker 1: pandemic right now is without question unknown. But for most 87 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: businesses and most assets, especially small businesses and small business owners, 88 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: the predictions from across the board are that these assets 89 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: will be worth far less. New York City real estate, 90 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: for instance, maybe taking a hit as well as a 91 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: result of people wanting out of the city. Certainly portfolios 92 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: are down. Defer, compensation values are down. So for the 93 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: moneyed spouse it is an opportune time to commence an 94 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: action for divorce. The less things are valued, the less 95 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: there is to share, especially if that particular spouse feels 96 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: that at some point in the not too distance future, 97 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: he or she may get back on his or her feet, 98 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: or values may ultimately increase because anything that theoretically is 99 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: accumulated post divorce or host commencement of a divorce would 100 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: not be subject to distribution so that's one incentive for 101 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: the moneyed spouse to pursue a divorce. Now. Another reason 102 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: maybe that support, both child and spousal support is an issue, 103 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: and if those issues need to be addressed, the less 104 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: a spouse made, the less In theory he or she 105 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: would be paying in both spousal and child support. Support 106 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: is primarily based on income, and if income is down, 107 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: one is going to be expected to pay less support, 108 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: so there is real incentive obviously if if somebody was 109 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: thinking about a divorce or the pandemic push them through divorce, 110 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: there is certainly incentive at this juncture for the quote 111 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: unquote moneyed spouse to push forward with this now as 112 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: opposed to later. On the flip side of it, you know, 113 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: the non money spouse may not be in a great position. 114 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: They may want to hold off to see how things rebound. 115 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: But of course, in most states it really only takes 116 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: one party to pursue the divorce action. And I wonder 117 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: if some couples who don't have money might be holding 118 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: out now because of the cost of divorce and also 119 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: having to split things up, having to have two residences 120 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: and health insurance. Absolutely divorces costly, and I don't necessarily 121 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: mean the process. You have to replicate two households. You 122 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: need to take whatever income stream exists at the time, 123 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: and you need to kind of split that amongst two households, 124 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: and two households are just more expensive than one. Health 125 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: insurance is a huge issue. So those are certainly reasons 126 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: why I think pandemic or no pandemic, those are reasons 127 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: why people don't get divorced in the first place, even 128 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: if they live separate lives. Throughout my career, I've met 129 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: with numerous people who have stayed in the marriage but 130 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: live completely separate lives except financially, because they just can't 131 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: afford to They can't afford to get that second house, 132 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: and they can't afford to get their own insurance, so 133 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: they stay married. There must be thousands and thousands of 134 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: couples around the country who who do that. Have you 135 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: gotten calls about problems with child custody or visitation during 136 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: the pandemic, for example, issues about children traveling from parent 137 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: to parent, So that's that's kind of eased a little bit. 138 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: But at the very beginning you had people beholding their 139 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: ground mothers or fathers, not trusting what the other parent 140 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: was doing, or where they were, who they were with 141 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: that they were taking social distancing and the quarantine seriously enough. 142 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: You had people who maybe even started their spring break 143 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: somewhere and weren't willing to come home. What we found 144 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: is that to the extent that we were able to 145 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: get in touch with the courts, the majority of the 146 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: judges and the courts wanted the parties to adhere to 147 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: the parenting schedule that was implemented prior to that absolutely 148 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: unique circumstance. They wanted the parents to adhere to the 149 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: schedule that they had previously agreed to. Judge Sunshine, who 150 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: is out of Brooklyn, he issued a statement the New 151 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: Yorkloor Journal maybe in late March early April, basically noting 152 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: that parents should adhere to the schedules that they previously 153 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: agreed to, and if they take it upon themselves or 154 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: engage in what we call self help, with the theory 155 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 1: that nobody can run into court where the courts were 156 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: backed up or closed, that one day soon those parents 157 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: would be before the court and not liking what he 158 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: or she would be here. So, by all accounts, the 159 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: courts were trying to direct that parents were cooperatively during 160 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: this difficult time, take this seriously, but adhere to the 161 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: schedule that had been administered to. Obviously, with everything that 162 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: we've had, we experienced a handful of cases here and 163 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: there where phone calls were required with the court where 164 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: motions had to be made with the court to ask 165 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: that a parent abide by the schedule. But truth be told, 166 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: a lot of parents stepped up to the plate and 167 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: did the right thing and work cooperatively. And whether it's 168 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: altering their schedule or just getting the children back and 169 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: forth to the necessary place, a lot of parents stepped 170 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: up to the plate. I certainly saw that. Quite frankly, 171 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: I think I saw that more then I saw adversarial behavior. 172 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: Domestic violence calls have been on the rise during the pandemic. 173 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: Have victims of domestic violence been able to get help 174 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: from the courts? They were? The Family Court was open 175 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: for domestic violence related issues emergency filings. That was one 176 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: of the matters wherein you were able to get into 177 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: court immediately from day one. That was part of the 178 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: essential matters that could be filed in court from day one, 179 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: at least in New York, you were able to get 180 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: in right away. By all accounts, and by the people. 181 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: I've spoken with um an officer of the Family Law 182 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 1: section of the New York State Bar Association, so have 183 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: a lot of communication with attorneys from across the state. 184 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: The calls have been substantially increased across the country for 185 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: domestic violence related issues. Thanks Peter. That's Peter stand Black 186 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: of Aaron Senmayevski and Sloan. And that's it for the 187 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,719 Speaker 1: edition of Bloomberg Long I'm June Grosso. Thanks so much 188 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 1: for listening, and remember to tune to The Bloomberg Long 189 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: Show weeknights at anth m Eastern right here on Bloomberg Radio.