WEBVTT - Phallus in Wonderland 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.880 In twenty seventeen, author Patricia Bosworth was interviewed by Alec 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.560 Baldwin on his old w NYC show called Here's the Thing. 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.119 What's the first book you attempt? Oh? I didn't start 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:13.560 writing a book for ten years. I had a long 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.599 apprenticeship at various magazines, including a place called Magazine Management, 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:22.639 a schlockhouse where Mario Puzo was writing The Godfather. No, yeah, 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.000 he was writing The Godfather. Well he was on staff 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.000 at a magazine, Yes he was. You did he write? 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:32.639 He wrote sex action pieces and sex action Well, that's 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:36.519 what they're called sex action there. I want you and 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:40.599 I to start an online site. We are okay, We're 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.279 going to call it sex Action. Alec and Patty talk 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:46.199 about a ton of stuff in this interview. Patty had 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.199 just released a book about coming of age in the 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:50.440 fifties and the men in her life at that time. 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.120 And then something super interesting comes up right during the 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.320 last minute or so of the broadcast. What's the next 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.840 memoir for you? Actually, I'd like to write about the 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:03.240 next ten years, meaning the six the sixties into seventies, 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.040 where I get into feminism and I work in pornography, 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.600 which I did for a while with Bob Guccioni, and 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:16.200 I edited a female porn magazine called Viva. At the 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.480 time of this interview, Patty's a famous author, though she'd 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.960 worked at several magazines and written a few memoirs. She 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:26.520 eventually became best known as a Hollywood biographer, writing the 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:30.240 Definitive Tomes on stars like Montgomery Clift and Marlon Brando. 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:34.080 Patty met a lot of famous powerful men in her life, 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:38.840 including Bob Guccioni. What was he like? Gucciani? He was 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:40.959 a complicated man. I mean, you know, he wanted to 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.679 be a painter. He felt he was doing good. He 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:48.040 was an accidental pornographer. He was he was. Patty liked Bob, 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.480 or at least she was intrigued by him. She was smart, 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.320 open minded, and progressive, and she's good at reading people. 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:59.760 SE's past, the gold Chain's sleazy Veneer. He was very 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:05.400 mark and he actually published some wonderful articles in fantasy. 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:09.079 Remember I remember reading about Barry Seals from the Whole 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:14.240 Mina Arkansas Conspiracy. Right. We did a lot of and 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:17.040 Viva had great writing in it too. He did well. 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:19.920 I think that when you're done with that memoir, I 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:22.400 want you to remember to allow time for you and 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:28.079 I for sex action. It's a winner, okay, But Patty 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.760 wouldn't get a chance to write sex action or that 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.960 next memoir. Three years after this interview, in twenty twenty, 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:39.160 she unfortunately passed from COVID complications. The New York Times 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:43.280 published an obituary for her, and in if they mentioned quote. 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.840 Creating a biography, Miss Bobsworth wrote on her website was 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:51.360 like solving a mystery, always looking for clues. I felt 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.679 the same way while making this show. Uncovering the details 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:57.240 and legacy of a magazine that was published over fifty 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.320 years ago is a little bit like cracking a story. 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:03.880 And if Viva were a mystery novel, Patty would be 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.359 a big character. She took the magazine to a new level. 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.959 The great writing that she mentioned to Alec A lot 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.400 of that comes during Patty's tenure as editor. Her vision, 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:19.120 her editing, her leadership, her entire vibe lent a fresh 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.360 perspective to a place that was still figuring itself. Out 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.320 Here she is in twenty seventeen on the City University 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.720 of New York talk show One to One. I was adventuresome. 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.320 I wanted adventures I wanted different kinds of experiences. I 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:37.480 didn't want to be curtailed. I yes, I did break 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.160 the rules, There's no question about it. Once Patty lands 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.360 the job as Viva's executive editor, she breaks the rules 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:47.200 there too. Sometimes this pays off, and as you'll see, 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.560 sometimes it doesn't. Patty's years at Viva are the good times. 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.280 If this were a movie, this episode would be It's 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:58.200 on the Come Up montage, only instead of Rocky dragging 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:00.839 a giant tire or a bunch of rag tag high 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:04.400 schoolers dancing into tension, it's a bunch of women sitting 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:08.280 at typewriters cranking out one smart article after the next. 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:13.000 Once Patty steps in, Viva starts gaining a devoted readership, 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:15.960 though not as large as Bob would like, and lands 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.839 a few big advertisers, though still not as many as 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:24.480 Kathy would like. It's finally on the right track. But 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:28.960 could a cool rebel like Patty Bosworth actually control Viva? 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:33.320 And how long could the magazine's good times role. Like 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.039 all great movie montages, this one's about to come to 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:44.520 a screeching halt from Crooked Media, and iHeartMedia. I'm Jennifer 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:49.480 Romilini and This is Stiffed, Episode four, Fallus in Wonderland 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:06.000 at one Christmas three way. Now, Patricia Bosworth is no 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.520 longer here to tell us this story herself, But according 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:11.880 to an article she wrote about the experience for Vanity 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:15.440 Fair in two thousand and five, when Bob Guccioni first 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.680 called her in nineteen seventy four, she was forty one, 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:22.839 working as the managing editor of Harper's Bazaar. In that 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.600 initial phone call, Bob tells Patty that Viva is quote 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:31.240 the world's most sophisticated erotic magazine for women, and he's 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:36.360 looking for a really classy editor like her to run it. Now, 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:39.920 Patty is classy, but she was a lot more than that, 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.400 truth be told, we could make an entire podcast about 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:47.960 the life of Patricia Bosworth Crumb. Before Bob's phone call, 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:51.360 before her time at Viva, Patty had already lived a 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:55.880 big enviably glamorous life. She'd been a successful model who'd 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.120 pose for photographers like Diane Arbis, and she was also 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:03.200 an actress trained by Lee Straussburg at the famous actor's studio, 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.920 and even featured in the Oscar nominated film A Nun's 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:11.120 Story alongside Audrey Hepburn. Here's Patty and Audrey in a 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.320 scene from the film You're blushing. It happened to me 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.479 too in my ward. We shouldn't blush. I'm sure we shouldn't. 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.640 How can we help It must mean some wrong awareness 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.320 of self. In New York in the sixties, Patty is 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.600 deep in the scene she shares cabs with Marilyn Monroe, 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.080 she rides on the back of actor Steve McQueen's motorcycle 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:35.200 through Central Park. Like I said, she had a cool life. 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.839 But by the time Bob Guccioni calls in nineteen seventy four, 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.960 Patty's left her actress model days behind. She's now a 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:46.760 well known journalist and editor, and she's well respected too. 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:51.039 She's a big name for Viva It's first, all of 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.080 which is a big deal, especially to Bob and Cathy. 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:59.400 As Viva Sex advice calumnist. Doctor Judy explains, Bob and 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:06.120 Cathy wanted to have their magazines have some creds to them, 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.960 have some substance to it, So Bob woos Patty big time. 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:12.920 He tells her that while his partner Kathy's listed at 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:16.120 the top of the masthead and technically Viva's editor in chief. 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.720 She's pretty much out of the day to day editorial. 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:22.600 Here's editor Robin woolaner, Well, she wasn't really a boss 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:27.440 because her day job was really selling ads, So Kathy 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:31.920 didn't review. I don't know what kind of review Kathy did. 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:34.880 She was the publisher of the magazine, not the editor. 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.480 So while Kathy's out scaring up ads, Patty comes in 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:42.280 as the actual head of editorial. She assigns articles, brings 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.960 in new writers. She makes Viva her own. Her task is, 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:50.200 as Bob tells her, to make Viva revolutionary. She has 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:54.360 a budget, a full staff control. Here's editor Betty Jane 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:58.760 talking about her new boss. I love Patty. She was 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:07.520 so small and so kind, and she had an open mind. 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:12.640 You know. You would propose something perhaps that was slightly 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:16.120 off the beaten track or whatever, and she'd want to hear. 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:21.200 Hotti is the staff's first true creative ally. She's curious 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:25.160 and imaginative, and she brings her reporters chops to Viva 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.360 begins to do something that's never been done before. She 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:31.880 asks a lot of questions and considers what female readers 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.120 might actually want out of an erotic magazine. She has 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:39.080 a cohesive, big picture vision. The magazine is now stacked 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:43.160 with great editors and award winning writing, not to mention 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.720 plenty of cos that's right. As we discussed in the 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:51.120 last episode at Cathy's urging, Viva's more sexually explicit than ever, 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:55.040 but with the arrival of editor Patty, it's smarter than ever. 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:59.640 Two It's a winning combination, and readers they start to 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:02.920 take I've never written to a magazine before, but I 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.520 wanted you to know. My boyfriend and ike Viva. By 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:09.640 our bedside. It's like having a threesome. There's something for everybody. 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.040 My husband and I were discussing Viva's sexual fantasy's column 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.720 in bed, but ours became more than a fantasy. I 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:19.040 asked him to fuck my underarm and it worked. Finally, 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.720 a publication which does not downgrade my intellect, degrade my humanity, 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.880 nor debase my feminine sensitivity. Just read a letter in 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:29.560 Viva's October issue and felt I must reply. The letter 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:34.040 concerns and models quote big, ugly, disgusting penis. I would 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:38.040 like to change those adjectives to quote large, beautiful, and exciting, 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.679 because that's what I experienced when I'm looking at a 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:47.160 large cock in Viva, so the readers are satisfied, and 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.400 after a rocky start, even the editors are finally having 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:54.280 some fun. Molly Haskell, Viva's film critic, remembers it like this, 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.000 Viva was asking sort of making feminism sexy. That would 0:09:58.000 --> 0:09:59.760 be the way I would describe it. Just it was. 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.520 It wasn't just these door oh you know, women suffragets 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:05.839 with the sort of image of what used to be 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:11.319 the early feminist. Maybe what she's describing here is the loose, confident, 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:15.600 sexy and yes, fun feeling of this new Viva. Patty 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.720 helps guide Viva's erotic photo shoots, and the women are 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.959 often now literally on top straddling hairy chested dudes dressed 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.079 in nothing but fur. There are men eating women's asses. 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.000 There's kind of lingus everywhere you look. On the cover 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:33.600 of Patty's December Viva there's even group sex. Two men 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.520 with a woman in the middle, all naked in bed, 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.880 wrapped up in a set of silky red sheets like 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.920 a bow. It's a Christmas three way right there on 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.800 the cover. A work of art. Here's Leslie j Bob's 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:52.040 head of pr The covers were gorgeous. Inside it was gorgeous. 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.120 It was so well produced, and I thought this is 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:58.319 a work of art. I just loved looking at it. 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.120 And it's not just the sec in viva that's better. 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.640 The vibe in the office is two. The editors are 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:10.280 stretching themselves creatively, and like editor Robin remembers, they're writing 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.680 a ton. There was one issue where I had three 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:18.760 articles that I wrote, and we thought that would look 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:23.160 really rinky dink, so I wrote one is under my 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:27.520 own name. I wrote one as Peggy Renolo Peggy's my 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.880 middle name, and Renolow was Rolander backwards. And I can't 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:32.520 remember what I did on the third when it just 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.000 might have not had a byline. But that was a 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:38.360 personal best. And the editors are even finding their way 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.640 into the whole hot guys thing, enjoying the perks of 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.640 their job. We would have, like, you know, a profile 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.000 of Chevy Chase because we thought it was hot. It 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:49.920 wasn't based on research of what women wanted. It was 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.360 what do we want, you know, what what did we 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:54.760 think would be cool or interesting? Who did we think 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:59.000 was hot? We were the target demographic and we wanted 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.360 a magazine for Austin our friends. Here's Betty Jane. Again, 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.920 we had each other facts and we were colleagues, you know, 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.839 because it would take maybe more than one person to 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:14.000 get a piece off the ground. Sometimes you would be collaborating. 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:17.440 And in the seventies, this kind of collaboration between women's 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:22.040 novel something most of them had never experienced before. I remember, 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.520 you know, part of the fifties was, or before the 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.400 continue way you didn't want to work for women because 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.959 they were going to be competitive and snappy and bitchy 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:35.600 and give you a hard time. So that was another 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:40.679 thing that I found liberating, finding women who maybe had 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.959 a little more power than you, but we're not trying 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.720 to stuffle you. The Viva editors are becoming tight, like 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.960 the best kinds of co workers. They're friends. We would 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.560 see each other outside of the office as well as 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.840 in the office. You know, we all go for drinks 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:01.720 or if somebody had an occasion, maybe Whoever's apartment. I 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.359 don't remember ever having a grim knows to the grindstone 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.160 kind of work atmosphere, and at least part of this 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.720 positive culture comes from Patty, who, as a writer herself, 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.080 knows how important it is to give the staff agency 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.240 her leadership style is collaborative, which makes them feel more 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:22.600 in control. The thing about acting which is so frustrating 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:26.400 is it's very passive. You cannot control your life. And 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.160 I got tired of being rejected so much, and also 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:33.520 tired of not being able to control my life. And 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.280 as soon as I became a writer, I had this control. 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:40.160 I felt more active, more energized. So Patty makes the 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.360 staff feel in control, and in turn they're happy. Like 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.640 you are at a job where your ideas are valued 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.680 and you're treated well. They're bonding outside of work for 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:51.840 non work events. They're also attending a whole lot of 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:56.120 work functions, mostly at their boss's house, which isn't just 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.360 any house. At this time. Bob and Cathy live in 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.760 one of the large just private residences in Manhattan, a 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:07.400 twenty six room, six story townhouse run by twenty two servants, 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.880 with an art collection worth one hundred and fifty million dollars, 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:16.199 including a gold piano once owned by Judy Garland. Here's 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:21.840 Viva Sex columnist doctor Judy again a real fantasyland castle 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.880 in his own image. You walk in and you're like 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.240 in a museum. Every place you look is fancy artwork 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:34.600 and sculptures and a pool, and it was just breathtaking 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:38.320 to be in that environment. And here's editor Pat Lindon. 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.040 There's this a great, big, sort of central living room 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:45.160 area with all this art. I mean, you know, Fra 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.640 Angelica and you know these major old painters. There was 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.560 a Picasso blue period there, but not all of the 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:55.320 editors were quite as impressed. Here's Annie. It was trumpy. 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.480 I mean it it was kind of trumpy. You know. 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.000 It was a lot more kind of Austin Hours style. 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.440 You know, Trump is like the five and dime Versailles, 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.160 you know. But I think Bob Guccioni had his own 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.880 kind of kitch. He could turn a great painting into 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:15.800 an accessory of kitsch. But at this time, the Viva 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.520 editors like their jobs enough that they don't really care 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:20.440 about how often they have to go to Bob and 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.440 Cathy's intense house. Since Patti's come on board, the two 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.320 have mostly left the staff alone, and with Patty their 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:31.200 works become more meaningful. She green lights stories they love. 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.800 They're interviewing feminist politicians like Bella Abzug, reporting on cutting 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:40.120 edge contraception like the IUD, publishing stories on why sex 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:44.320 workers deserve a union. Molly Haskell's writing about the choice 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:48.120 to not have children. Book reviewer Annie Gottlieb's promoted is 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.840 now writing essays on living without a man on her own. 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:55.320 Things are getting better and better. The magazine's smarter and 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:59.520 Smarter and the Viva team they're about to publish their 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:04.320 most important editorial package yet. Betty Jane remembers how it 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:09.680 came to be. We wanted a spread on rape, on 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:14.840 date rape. You know what women were facing out there, 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:19.760 and how it wasn't reported, and how most women suffered 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.600 in silence. And this spread will turn out to be 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:28.120 a groundbreaking special report on sexual assault, one of the 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:31.120 first of its kind, one that gets Viva and its 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:35.040 editors a lot of attention, though it's not exactly the 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:53.040 attention they were hoping for. Act two, Rubber meets the Road. 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.040 In order to understand the story I'm about to tell you, 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.359 you need to understand a few fundamentals about how magazines 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:11.679 are made. So because of printing schedules and shipping schedules, 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.800 magazines work on a long lead time. They're usually made 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:19.200 months before they come out. For example, in the two thousands, 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:21.760 when I was working on them, I'd be editing a 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.480 holiday gift guide in the dead ass heat of August. 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.240 But in the seventies, before the Internet, before email, before computers, 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.880 even everything in a magazine was done by hand. This 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.960 took a super long time, and a magazine like Viva, 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:41.040 with its complicated layouts and expensive photoshoots, it took even 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:45.000 longer because of the way it was bound, because of 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:50.640 the really high end printing and photography. We'd be working 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:56.600 in June on the Christmas cover. Viva's production schedules around 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:00.639 six months before its publication date, and this is important 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:03.879 because while the Special Report on Rape is published in 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:07.919 November nineteen seventy four, the editors had been working on 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.800 it for months before. Viva Special Report on Rape covers 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:15.280 a ton including a self defense handbook, a guide to 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.040 rape centers all over the country, which is important in 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:21.719 a pre google time, and a sexual assault survey created 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.400 by famous Second Way of feminist Andrea Media and Kathleen Thompson, 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:30.760 authors of the famously influential book Against Rape. The survey 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.560 is among the first of its kind, and this being Viva, 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:39.240 an erotic magazine for women, there's even a thoughtful, sensitive, 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:43.720 non shaming examination of rape as a sexual fantasy and 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:49.240 what that might mean. Here's doctor Judy. Women really liked 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:55.080 the idea of being totally overpowered, thrown on the bed, 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:59.560 tossed around, you know, slap down to their face, you know, 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.320 into the into the bed sheets, are up against the 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:08.600 wall and madly, widely taken. And as sex therapists, we 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.840 were constantly saying, why do they like that? With Viva's 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:15.240 rape issue, the editors, led by Patty, are defining what 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:20.080 Viva could be a bridge between feminism, activism, sexuality, and 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:25.560 groundbreaking journalism. And also with this rape issue, Patty's following 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.199 her marching orders. She's following what Bob told her in 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:33.000 her interview when he told her Viva could be revolutionary 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:37.520 and she could be the one to make it revolutionary. Together, 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.960 the editors have tackled a relevant, important issue for women 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:46.639 from a number of smart, original, even groundbreaking angles. These 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.160 are the kinds of stories they always wanted to do. 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.879 The team is proud of their work, but after the 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:58.680 rape issue comes out, Bob unexpectedly calls a meeting, and, 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.679 like all of Bob's business dealings at this point, he 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:06.040 conducts it out of his house. Here's editor Pat Lindon again, 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:10.480 and so you'd go knock on the door and the 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:12.879 guy would be there to sort of make sure you 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:16.080 were okay, and the dogs would then come running at you. 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.920 Just heard of big dogs. Bob and Cathy's dogs. All 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:24.320 thirteen of them were Rhodesian ridgebacks. Each of them weighed 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.520 about eighty five pounds, and the floor was marble, and 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:29.680 you know, you'd hear them scraping along and they'd come 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.880 plowing at you. They were just friendly, but it's kind 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:38.720 of scary to have this thirteen Rhodesian ridgebacks. So the 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:42.240 editors arrive at Bob's house. They navigate past the giant 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.000 dogs and into a dining room turned meeting room to 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:48.760 meet their boss, the king on his throne. All these 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:52.120 months while the magazine was in production, they hadn't heard 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.080 a peep from Bob about the rape issue. And maybe 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.320 that's because he's mostly not reading the magazine, mostly only 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.480 cares about Beavera's pictures. But now that the issue is 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.880 out in the world, the headline rape has very much 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:09.120 caught his eye. Here's editor Betty Jane, and we all 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:13.840 sit down at this dining room table, this long table, 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:18.200 and she started yelling at us because she said, this 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:21.919 is an entertainment magazine and you don't put rape in 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.840 the color or in the magazine at all. That's not 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.119 what the magazine is supposed to be. And everybody was 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:33.440 totally silent, shame feeling looking down at the table. Bob 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.879 thinks Viva should be lighthearted and fun, a slinky, sex 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:41.120 positive romp, not a magazine that tackles serious issues about 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:46.480 predatory men and sexual violence. She was very angry that 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:51.200 we had printed this article, and actually we had gotten 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:53.800 a lot of response to it because we has invited 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:58.240 women to share their experiences and we got a lot 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:02.040 of feedbacks talking about the survey by the Against Rape 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:05.480 authors which asked women to share their sexual assault stories, 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:09.240 stories which start pouring in by the hundreds almost right 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:13.720 after the magazine arrives in subscribers' mailboxes a few weeks 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:16.840 before this meeting. Viva will turn out to be one 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.400 of the first magazines in the world to publish rape 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:22.800 survivors stories, to allow them to share their experiences in 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:27.000 their own words. Readers will send letters praising the rape 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:31.399 issue for months, letters like this one. Your report on 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:35.359 rape offered a compassionate, but forthright view. I must thank 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:40.520 Viva for the exceptional editorial coverage. See this is the 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:44.600 Viva magazine many of its readers actually want. But still 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:47.879 Bob doesn't like it. And back in the meeting in 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:51.520 his house, Betty Jane, for one, is not at all 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:55.680 into Bob's reaction. I don't know what possessed me, because 0:22:55.760 --> 0:23:01.960 I don't think of myself as a speaker. But I 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:05.480 couldn't let the silences go by, and I said, well, 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:10.480 you know, Mr GUCCIONI you know, yes, it is entertainment, 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:14.600 but it's involvement too. I mean, this was a this 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:16.760 was an important issue. When we got a lot of 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:22.480 read a mail on it silence, Nobody backed me up, 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:27.280 nobody opened their eyes. And two days later Patty called 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.639 me into her office. She had tears in her eyes 0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:36.000 and she said, I have to buire you. So that 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:39.040 was where the rubber met the road. In her two 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:42.240 thousand and five Vanity Fair article, Patty remembered it like this. 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:44.919 I'd accepted the job and was telling them maybe I 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:47.920 could help Viva fulfill in need and inform and inspire 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:51.400 women whom was I kidding? Viva would never be anything 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:56.560 but hopeless, and maybe the saddest part of all this, 0:23:57.560 --> 0:24:01.160 Bob had not only fooled Patty, but in the process 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:04.000 he'd given her and all of the Viva editors real 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:08.080 hope about what Viva could be. Because of the magazine's 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:12.000 long lead production time, the editors had six months to hope, 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:15.480 six months to fulfill the promise of the magazine without 0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:19.439 Bob hovering over and watching their every move, And in 0:24:19.480 --> 0:24:23.080 those months they'd seen what they could do. Like so 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:27.199 many women forever, they'd felt hopeful because they'd seen what 0:24:27.320 --> 0:24:30.399 was possible when men like Bob Guccioni got out of 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:34.560 their way. But the thing is, even though Bob hired 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:38.280 women like Kathy and Patty to run the magazine and 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:40.920 editors like Betty, Jane and Annie to edit and write 0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:45.439 in it, he once again never actually stepped aside and 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:49.080 let them do their jobs. Here's Leslie j Bob's head 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:51.920 of pr again, and it would always be. Bob says, 0:24:52.160 --> 0:24:55.280 he doesn't want to do that. Bob says it was 0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:59.760 really Bob's magazine. Viva was Bob's magazine. But now the 0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:03.760 hides inside vivar about to turn again, because by the 0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:07.160 mid seventies, the tides outside Viva are about to turn 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:11.720 for Bob Guccioni in a big public way. Still to 0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:14.200 come on the News Hour, The never ending battle over 0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:21.959 pornography within house publisher Bob Guccioni and others. Stiffed as 0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:26.000 an original podcast from iHeartMedia and Crooked Media. It's produced 0:25:26.040 --> 0:25:30.000 by Crooked Media. It's hosted and written by me Jennifer 0:25:30.080 --> 0:25:34.320 Romalini and produced by Megan Donnas. Sidney Rapp is our 0:25:34.320 --> 0:25:39.760 associate producer, Story editing by Mary Knopf, music sound design 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:44.040 and engineering by Hannis Brown. Our fact checker is Julia Paskin. 0:25:44.760 --> 0:25:49.399 Additional production support from Nafola Cato and Ines Maza from 0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:53.080 Crooked Media. Our executive producers are Sarah Geismer, Katy Long, 0:25:53.160 --> 0:25:56.560 and Mary Knopf, with special thanks to Alison Falzetta and 0:25:56.680 --> 0:26:01.560 Lyra Smith from iHeartMedia. Our executive producers Beth Anne Macaluso 0:26:02.000 --> 0:26:15.040