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Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, author Patricia Bosworth was interviewed by Alec

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Speaker 1: Baldwin on his old w NYC show called Here's the Thing.

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Speaker 1: What's the first book you attempt? Oh? I didn't start

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Speaker 1: writing a book for ten years. I had a long

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Speaker 1: apprenticeship at various magazines, including a place called Magazine Management,

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Speaker 1: a schlockhouse where Mario Puzo was writing The Godfather. No, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was writing The Godfather. Well he was on staff

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Speaker 1: at a magazine, Yes he was. You did he write?

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Speaker 1: He wrote sex action pieces and sex action Well, that's

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Speaker 1: what they're called sex action there. I want you and

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Speaker 1: I to start an online site. We are okay, We're

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Speaker 1: going to call it sex Action. Alec and Patty talk

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Speaker 1: about a ton of stuff in this interview. Patty had

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Speaker 1: just released a book about coming of age in the

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Speaker 1: fifties and the men in her life at that time.

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Speaker 1: And then something super interesting comes up right during the

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Speaker 1: last minute or so of the broadcast. What's the next

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Speaker 1: memoir for you? Actually, I'd like to write about the

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Speaker 1: next ten years, meaning the six the sixties into seventies,

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Speaker 1: where I get into feminism and I work in pornography,

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Speaker 1: which I did for a while with Bob Guccioni, and

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Speaker 1: I edited a female porn magazine called Viva. At the

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Speaker 1: time of this interview, Patty's a famous author, though she'd

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Speaker 1: worked at several magazines and written a few memoirs. She

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Speaker 1: eventually became best known as a Hollywood biographer, writing the

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Speaker 1: Definitive Tomes on stars like Montgomery Clift and Marlon Brando.

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Speaker 1: Patty met a lot of famous powerful men in her life,

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Speaker 1: including Bob Guccioni. What was he like? Gucciani? He was

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Speaker 1: a complicated man. I mean, you know, he wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a painter. He felt he was doing good. He

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Speaker 1: was an accidental pornographer. He was he was. Patty liked Bob,

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Speaker 1: or at least she was intrigued by him. She was smart,

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Speaker 1: open minded, and progressive, and she's good at reading people.

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Speaker 1: SE's past, the gold Chain's sleazy Veneer. He was very

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Speaker 1: mark and he actually published some wonderful articles in fantasy.

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Speaker 1: Remember I remember reading about Barry Seals from the Whole

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Speaker 1: Mina Arkansas Conspiracy. Right. We did a lot of and

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Speaker 1: Viva had great writing in it too. He did well.

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Speaker 1: I think that when you're done with that memoir, I

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Speaker 1: want you to remember to allow time for you and

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Speaker 1: I for sex action. It's a winner, okay, But Patty

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Speaker 1: wouldn't get a chance to write sex action or that

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Speaker 1: next memoir. Three years after this interview, in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: she unfortunately passed from COVID complications. The New York Times

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Speaker 1: published an obituary for her, and in if they mentioned quote.

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Speaker 1: Creating a biography, Miss Bobsworth wrote on her website was

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Speaker 1: like solving a mystery, always looking for clues. I felt

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Speaker 1: the same way while making this show. Uncovering the details

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Speaker 1: and legacy of a magazine that was published over fifty

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Speaker 1: years ago is a little bit like cracking a story.

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Speaker 1: And if Viva were a mystery novel, Patty would be

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Speaker 1: a big character. She took the magazine to a new level.

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Speaker 1: The great writing that she mentioned to Alec A lot

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Speaker 1: of that comes during Patty's tenure as editor. Her vision,

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Speaker 1: her editing, her leadership, her entire vibe lent a fresh

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Speaker 1: perspective to a place that was still figuring itself. Out

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Speaker 1: Here she is in twenty seventeen on the City University

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Speaker 1: of New York talk show One to One. I was adventuresome.

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Speaker 1: I wanted adventures I wanted different kinds of experiences. I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to be curtailed. I yes, I did break

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Speaker 1: the rules, There's no question about it. Once Patty lands

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Speaker 1: the job as Viva's executive editor, she breaks the rules

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Speaker 1: there too. Sometimes this pays off, and as you'll see,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it doesn't. Patty's years at Viva are the good times.

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Speaker 1: If this were a movie, this episode would be It's

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Speaker 1: on the Come Up montage, only instead of Rocky dragging

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Speaker 1: a giant tire or a bunch of rag tag high

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Speaker 1: schoolers dancing into tension, it's a bunch of women sitting

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Speaker 1: at typewriters cranking out one smart article after the next.

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Speaker 1: Once Patty steps in, Viva starts gaining a devoted readership,

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Speaker 1: though not as large as Bob would like, and lands

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Speaker 1: a few big advertisers, though still not as many as

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Speaker 1: Kathy would like. It's finally on the right track. But

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Speaker 1: could a cool rebel like Patty Bosworth actually control Viva?

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Speaker 1: And how long could the magazine's good times role. Like

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Speaker 1: all great movie montages, this one's about to come to

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Speaker 1: a screeching halt from Crooked Media, and iHeartMedia. I'm Jennifer

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Speaker 1: Romilini and This is Stiffed, Episode four, Fallus in Wonderland

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Speaker 1: at one Christmas three way. Now, Patricia Bosworth is no

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Speaker 1: longer here to tell us this story herself, But according

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Speaker 1: to an article she wrote about the experience for Vanity

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Speaker 1: Fair in two thousand and five, when Bob Guccioni first

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Speaker 1: called her in nineteen seventy four, she was forty one,

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Speaker 1: working as the managing editor of Harper's Bazaar. In that

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Speaker 1: initial phone call, Bob tells Patty that Viva is quote

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Speaker 1: the world's most sophisticated erotic magazine for women, and he's

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Speaker 1: looking for a really classy editor like her to run it. Now,

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Speaker 1: Patty is classy, but she was a lot more than that,

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Speaker 1: truth be told, we could make an entire podcast about

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Speaker 1: the life of Patricia Bosworth Crumb. Before Bob's phone call,

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Speaker 1: before her time at Viva, Patty had already lived a

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Speaker 1: big enviably glamorous life. She'd been a successful model who'd

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Speaker 1: pose for photographers like Diane Arbis, and she was also

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Speaker 1: an actress trained by Lee Straussburg at the famous actor's studio,

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Speaker 1: and even featured in the Oscar nominated film A Nun's

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Speaker 1: Story alongside Audrey Hepburn. Here's Patty and Audrey in a

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Speaker 1: scene from the film You're blushing. It happened to me

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Speaker 1: too in my ward. We shouldn't blush. I'm sure we shouldn't.

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Speaker 1: How can we help It must mean some wrong awareness

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Speaker 1: of self. In New York in the sixties, Patty is

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Speaker 1: deep in the scene she shares cabs with Marilyn Monroe,

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Speaker 1: she rides on the back of actor Steve McQueen's motorcycle

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Speaker 1: through Central Park. Like I said, she had a cool life.

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Speaker 1: But by the time Bob Guccioni calls in nineteen seventy four,

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Speaker 1: Patty's left her actress model days behind. She's now a

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Speaker 1: well known journalist and editor, and she's well respected too.

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Speaker 1: She's a big name for Viva It's first, all of

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Speaker 1: which is a big deal, especially to Bob and Cathy.

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Speaker 1: As Viva Sex advice calumnist. Doctor Judy explains, Bob and

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Speaker 1: Cathy wanted to have their magazines have some creds to them,

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Speaker 1: have some substance to it, So Bob woos Patty big time.

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Speaker 1: He tells her that while his partner Kathy's listed at

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Speaker 1: the top of the masthead and technically Viva's editor in chief.

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Speaker 1: She's pretty much out of the day to day editorial.

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Speaker 1: Here's editor Robin woolaner, Well, she wasn't really a boss

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Speaker 1: because her day job was really selling ads, So Kathy

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Speaker 1: didn't review. I don't know what kind of review Kathy did.

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Speaker 1: She was the publisher of the magazine, not the editor.

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Speaker 1: So while Kathy's out scaring up ads, Patty comes in

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Speaker 1: as the actual head of editorial. She assigns articles, brings

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Speaker 1: in new writers. She makes Viva her own. Her task is,

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Speaker 1: as Bob tells her, to make Viva revolutionary. She has

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Speaker 1: a budget, a full staff control. Here's editor Betty Jane

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Speaker 1: talking about her new boss. I love Patty. She was

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Speaker 1: so small and so kind, and she had an open mind.

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Speaker 1: You know. You would propose something perhaps that was slightly

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Speaker 1: off the beaten track or whatever, and she'd want to hear.

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Speaker 1: Hotti is the staff's first true creative ally. She's curious

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Speaker 1: and imaginative, and she brings her reporters chops to Viva

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Speaker 1: begins to do something that's never been done before. She

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Speaker 1: asks a lot of questions and considers what female readers

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Speaker 1: might actually want out of an erotic magazine. She has

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Speaker 1: a cohesive, big picture vision. The magazine is now stacked

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Speaker 1: with great editors and award winning writing, not to mention

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Speaker 1: plenty of cos that's right. As we discussed in the

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Speaker 1: last episode at Cathy's urging, Viva's more sexually explicit than ever,

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Speaker 1: but with the arrival of editor Patty, it's smarter than ever.

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Speaker 1: Two It's a winning combination, and readers they start to

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Speaker 1: take I've never written to a magazine before, but I

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Speaker 1: wanted you to know. My boyfriend and ike Viva. By

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Speaker 1: our bedside. It's like having a threesome. There's something for everybody.

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Speaker 1: My husband and I were discussing Viva's sexual fantasy's column

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Speaker 1: in bed, but ours became more than a fantasy. I

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Speaker 1: asked him to fuck my underarm and it worked. Finally,

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Speaker 1: a publication which does not downgrade my intellect, degrade my humanity,

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Speaker 1: nor debase my feminine sensitivity. Just read a letter in

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Speaker 1: Viva's October issue and felt I must reply. The letter

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Speaker 1: concerns and models quote big, ugly, disgusting penis. I would

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Speaker 1: like to change those adjectives to quote large, beautiful, and exciting,

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Speaker 1: because that's what I experienced when I'm looking at a

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Speaker 1: large cock in Viva, so the readers are satisfied, and

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Speaker 1: after a rocky start, even the editors are finally having

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Speaker 1: some fun. Molly Haskell, Viva's film critic, remembers it like this,

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Speaker 1: Viva was asking sort of making feminism sexy. That would

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Speaker 1: be the way I would describe it. Just it was.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't just these door oh you know, women suffragets

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Speaker 1: with the sort of image of what used to be

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Speaker 1: the early feminist. Maybe what she's describing here is the loose, confident,

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Speaker 1: sexy and yes, fun feeling of this new Viva. Patty

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Speaker 1: helps guide Viva's erotic photo shoots, and the women are

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Speaker 1: often now literally on top straddling hairy chested dudes dressed

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Speaker 1: in nothing but fur. There are men eating women's asses.

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Speaker 1: There's kind of lingus everywhere you look. On the cover

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Speaker 1: of Patty's December Viva there's even group sex. Two men

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Speaker 1: with a woman in the middle, all naked in bed,

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Speaker 1: wrapped up in a set of silky red sheets like

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Speaker 1: a bow. It's a Christmas three way right there on

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Speaker 1: the cover. A work of art. Here's Leslie j Bob's

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Speaker 1: head of pr The covers were gorgeous. Inside it was gorgeous.

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Speaker 1: It was so well produced, and I thought this is

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Speaker 1: a work of art. I just loved looking at it.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just the sec in viva that's better.

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Speaker 1: The vibe in the office is two. The editors are

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Speaker 1: stretching themselves creatively, and like editor Robin remembers, they're writing

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Speaker 1: a ton. There was one issue where I had three

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Speaker 1: articles that I wrote, and we thought that would look

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Speaker 1: really rinky dink, so I wrote one is under my

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Speaker 1: own name. I wrote one as Peggy Renolo Peggy's my

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Speaker 1: middle name, and Renolow was Rolander backwards. And I can't

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Speaker 1: remember what I did on the third when it just

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Speaker 1: might have not had a byline. But that was a

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Speaker 1: personal best. And the editors are even finding their way

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Speaker 1: into the whole hot guys thing, enjoying the perks of

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Speaker 1: their job. We would have, like, you know, a profile

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Speaker 1: of Chevy Chase because we thought it was hot. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't based on research of what women wanted. It was

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Speaker 1: what do we want, you know, what what did we

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Speaker 1: think would be cool or interesting? Who did we think

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Speaker 1: was hot? We were the target demographic and we wanted

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Speaker 1: a magazine for Austin our friends. Here's Betty Jane. Again,

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Speaker 1: we had each other facts and we were colleagues, you know,

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Speaker 1: because it would take maybe more than one person to

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Speaker 1: get a piece off the ground. Sometimes you would be collaborating.

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Speaker 1: And in the seventies, this kind of collaboration between women's

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Speaker 1: novel something most of them had never experienced before. I remember,

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Speaker 1: you know, part of the fifties was, or before the

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Speaker 1: continue way you didn't want to work for women because

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Speaker 1: they were going to be competitive and snappy and bitchy

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Speaker 1: and give you a hard time. So that was another

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Speaker 1: thing that I found liberating, finding women who maybe had

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Speaker 1: a little more power than you, but we're not trying

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Speaker 1: to stuffle you. The Viva editors are becoming tight, like

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Speaker 1: the best kinds of co workers. They're friends. We would

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Speaker 1: see each other outside of the office as well as

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Speaker 1: in the office. You know, we all go for drinks

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Speaker 1: or if somebody had an occasion, maybe Whoever's apartment. I

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Speaker 1: don't remember ever having a grim knows to the grindstone

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Speaker 1: kind of work atmosphere, and at least part of this

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Speaker 1: positive culture comes from Patty, who, as a writer herself,

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Speaker 1: knows how important it is to give the staff agency

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Speaker 1: her leadership style is collaborative, which makes them feel more

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Speaker 1: in control. The thing about acting which is so frustrating

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Speaker 1: is it's very passive. You cannot control your life. And

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Speaker 1: I got tired of being rejected so much, and also

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Speaker 1: tired of not being able to control my life. And

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Speaker 1: as soon as I became a writer, I had this control.

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Speaker 1: I felt more active, more energized. So Patty makes the

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Speaker 1: staff feel in control, and in turn they're happy. Like

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Speaker 1: you are at a job where your ideas are valued

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Speaker 1: and you're treated well. They're bonding outside of work for

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Speaker 1: non work events. They're also attending a whole lot of

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Speaker 1: work functions, mostly at their boss's house, which isn't just

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Speaker 1: any house. At this time. Bob and Cathy live in

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Speaker 1: one of the large just private residences in Manhattan, a

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Speaker 1: twenty six room, six story townhouse run by twenty two servants,

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Speaker 1: with an art collection worth one hundred and fifty million dollars,

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Speaker 1: including a gold piano once owned by Judy Garland. Here's

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Speaker 1: Viva Sex columnist doctor Judy again a real fantasyland castle

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Speaker 1: in his own image. You walk in and you're like

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Speaker 1: in a museum. Every place you look is fancy artwork

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Speaker 1: and sculptures and a pool, and it was just breathtaking

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Speaker 1: to be in that environment. And here's editor Pat Lindon.

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Speaker 1: There's this a great, big, sort of central living room

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Speaker 1: area with all this art. I mean, you know, Fra

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Speaker 1: Angelica and you know these major old painters. There was

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Speaker 1: a Picasso blue period there, but not all of the

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Speaker 1: editors were quite as impressed. Here's Annie. It was trumpy.

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Speaker 1: I mean it it was kind of trumpy. You know.

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Speaker 1: It was a lot more kind of Austin Hours style.

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Speaker 1: You know, Trump is like the five and dime Versailles,

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Speaker 1: you know. But I think Bob Guccioni had his own

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Speaker 1: kind of kitch. He could turn a great painting into

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Speaker 1: an accessory of kitsch. But at this time, the Viva

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Speaker 1: editors like their jobs enough that they don't really care

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Speaker 1: about how often they have to go to Bob and

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Speaker 1: Cathy's intense house. Since Patti's come on board, the two

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Speaker 1: have mostly left the staff alone, and with Patty their

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Speaker 1: works become more meaningful. She green lights stories they love.

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Speaker 1: They're interviewing feminist politicians like Bella Abzug, reporting on cutting

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Speaker 1: edge contraception like the IUD, publishing stories on why sex

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Speaker 1: workers deserve a union. Molly Haskell's writing about the choice

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Speaker 1: to not have children. Book reviewer Annie Gottlieb's promoted is

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Speaker 1: now writing essays on living without a man on her own.

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Speaker 1: Things are getting better and better. The magazine's smarter and

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Speaker 1: Smarter and the Viva team they're about to publish their

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Speaker 1: most important editorial package yet. Betty Jane remembers how it

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Speaker 1: came to be. We wanted a spread on rape, on

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Speaker 1: date rape. You know what women were facing out there,

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Speaker 1: and how it wasn't reported, and how most women suffered

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Speaker 1: in silence. And this spread will turn out to be

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Speaker 1: a groundbreaking special report on sexual assault, one of the

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Speaker 1: first of its kind, one that gets Viva and its

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Speaker 1: editors a lot of attention, though it's not exactly the

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Speaker 1: attention they were hoping for. Act two, Rubber meets the Road.

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Speaker 1: In order to understand the story I'm about to tell you,

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Speaker 1: you need to understand a few fundamentals about how magazines

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Speaker 1: are made. So because of printing schedules and shipping schedules,

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Speaker 1: magazines work on a long lead time. They're usually made

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Speaker 1: months before they come out. For example, in the two thousands,

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Speaker 1: when I was working on them, I'd be editing a

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Speaker 1: holiday gift guide in the dead ass heat of August.

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Speaker 1: But in the seventies, before the Internet, before email, before computers,

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Speaker 1: even everything in a magazine was done by hand. This

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Speaker 1: took a super long time, and a magazine like Viva,

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Speaker 1: with its complicated layouts and expensive photoshoots, it took even

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Speaker 1: longer because of the way it was bound, because of

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Speaker 1: the really high end printing and photography. We'd be working

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Speaker 1: in June on the Christmas cover. Viva's production schedules around

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Speaker 1: six months before its publication date, and this is important

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Speaker 1: because while the Special Report on Rape is published in

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Speaker 1: November nineteen seventy four, the editors had been working on

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Speaker 1: it for months before. Viva Special Report on Rape covers

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Speaker 1: a ton including a self defense handbook, a guide to

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Speaker 1: rape centers all over the country, which is important in

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Speaker 1: a pre google time, and a sexual assault survey created

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Speaker 1: by famous Second Way of feminist Andrea Media and Kathleen Thompson,

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Speaker 1: authors of the famously influential book Against Rape. The survey

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Speaker 1: is among the first of its kind, and this being Viva,

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Speaker 1: an erotic magazine for women, there's even a thoughtful, sensitive,

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Speaker 1: non shaming examination of rape as a sexual fantasy and

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Speaker 1: what that might mean. Here's doctor Judy. Women really liked

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Speaker 1: the idea of being totally overpowered, thrown on the bed,

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Speaker 1: tossed around, you know, slap down to their face, you know,

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Speaker 1: into the into the bed sheets, are up against the

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Speaker 1: wall and madly, widely taken. And as sex therapists, we

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Speaker 1: were constantly saying, why do they like that? With Viva's

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Speaker 1: rape issue, the editors, led by Patty, are defining what

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Speaker 1: Viva could be a bridge between feminism, activism, sexuality, and

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking journalism. And also with this rape issue, Patty's following

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Speaker 1: her marching orders. She's following what Bob told her in

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Speaker 1: her interview when he told her Viva could be revolutionary

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Speaker 1: and she could be the one to make it revolutionary. Together,

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Speaker 1: the editors have tackled a relevant, important issue for women

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Speaker 1: from a number of smart, original, even groundbreaking angles. These

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Speaker 1: are the kinds of stories they always wanted to do.

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Speaker 1: The team is proud of their work, but after the

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Speaker 1: rape issue comes out, Bob unexpectedly calls a meeting, and,

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Speaker 1: like all of Bob's business dealings at this point, he

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Speaker 1: conducts it out of his house. Here's editor Pat Lindon again,

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Speaker 1: and so you'd go knock on the door and the

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Speaker 1: guy would be there to sort of make sure you

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Speaker 1: were okay, and the dogs would then come running at you.

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Speaker 1: Just heard of big dogs. Bob and Cathy's dogs. All

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Speaker 1: thirteen of them were Rhodesian ridgebacks. Each of them weighed

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Speaker 1: about eighty five pounds, and the floor was marble, and

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Speaker 1: you know, you'd hear them scraping along and they'd come

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Speaker 1: plowing at you. They were just friendly, but it's kind

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Speaker 1: of scary to have this thirteen Rhodesian ridgebacks. So the

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Speaker 1: editors arrive at Bob's house. They navigate past the giant

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Speaker 1: dogs and into a dining room turned meeting room to

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Speaker 1: meet their boss, the king on his throne. All these

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Speaker 1: months while the magazine was in production, they hadn't heard

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Speaker 1: a peep from Bob about the rape issue. And maybe

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Speaker 1: that's because he's mostly not reading the magazine, mostly only

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Speaker 1: cares about Beavera's pictures. But now that the issue is

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Speaker 1: out in the world, the headline rape has very much

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Speaker 1: caught his eye. Here's editor Betty Jane, and we all

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Speaker 1: sit down at this dining room table, this long table,

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Speaker 1: and she started yelling at us because she said, this

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Speaker 1: is an entertainment magazine and you don't put rape in

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Speaker 1: the color or in the magazine at all. That's not

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Speaker 1: what the magazine is supposed to be. And everybody was

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Speaker 1: totally silent, shame feeling looking down at the table. Bob

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Speaker 1: thinks Viva should be lighthearted and fun, a slinky, sex

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Speaker 1: positive romp, not a magazine that tackles serious issues about

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Speaker 1: predatory men and sexual violence. She was very angry that

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Speaker 1: we had printed this article, and actually we had gotten

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Speaker 1: a lot of response to it because we has invited

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Speaker 1: women to share their experiences and we got a lot

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Speaker 1: of feedbacks talking about the survey by the Against Rape

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Speaker 1: authors which asked women to share their sexual assault stories,

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Speaker 1: stories which start pouring in by the hundreds almost right

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Speaker 1: after the magazine arrives in subscribers' mailboxes a few weeks

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Speaker 1: before this meeting. Viva will turn out to be one

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Speaker 1: of the first magazines in the world to publish rape

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Speaker 1: survivors stories, to allow them to share their experiences in

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Speaker 1: their own words. Readers will send letters praising the rape

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Speaker 1: issue for months, letters like this one. Your report on

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Speaker 1: rape offered a compassionate, but forthright view. I must thank

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Speaker 1: Viva for the exceptional editorial coverage. See this is the

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Speaker 1: Viva magazine many of its readers actually want. But still

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Speaker 1: Bob doesn't like it. And back in the meeting in

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Speaker 1: his house, Betty Jane, for one, is not at all

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Speaker 1: into Bob's reaction. I don't know what possessed me, because

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Speaker 1: I don't think of myself as a speaker. But I

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Speaker 1: couldn't let the silences go by, and I said, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, Mr GUCCIONI you know, yes, it is entertainment,

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Speaker 1: but it's involvement too. I mean, this was a this

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Speaker 1: was an important issue. When we got a lot of

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Speaker 1: read a mail on it silence, Nobody backed me up,

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Speaker 1: nobody opened their eyes. And two days later Patty called

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Speaker 1: me into her office. She had tears in her eyes

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Speaker 1: and she said, I have to buire you. So that

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Speaker 1: was where the rubber met the road. In her two

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Speaker 1: thousand and five Vanity Fair article, Patty remembered it like this.

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Speaker 1: I'd accepted the job and was telling them maybe I

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Speaker 1: could help Viva fulfill in need and inform and inspire

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Speaker 1: women whom was I kidding? Viva would never be anything

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Speaker 1: but hopeless, and maybe the saddest part of all this,

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Speaker 1: Bob had not only fooled Patty, but in the process

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Speaker 1: he'd given her and all of the Viva editors real

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Speaker 1: hope about what Viva could be. Because of the magazine's

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Speaker 1: long lead production time, the editors had six months to hope,

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Speaker 1: six months to fulfill the promise of the magazine without

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Speaker 1: Bob hovering over and watching their every move, And in

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Speaker 1: those months they'd seen what they could do. Like so

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Speaker 1: many women forever, they'd felt hopeful because they'd seen what

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Speaker 1: was possible when men like Bob Guccioni got out of

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Speaker 1: their way. But the thing is, even though Bob hired

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Speaker 1: women like Kathy and Patty to run the magazine and

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Speaker 1: editors like Betty, Jane and Annie to edit and write

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Speaker 1: in it, he once again never actually stepped aside and

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Speaker 1: let them do their jobs. Here's Leslie j Bob's head

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Speaker 1: of pr again, and it would always be. Bob says,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't want to do that. Bob says it was

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Speaker 1: really Bob's magazine. Viva was Bob's magazine. But now the

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Speaker 1: hides inside vivar about to turn again, because by the

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Speaker 1: mid seventies, the tides outside Viva are about to turn

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Speaker 1: for Bob Guccioni in a big public way. Still to

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Speaker 1: come on the News Hour, The never ending battle over

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Speaker 1: pornography within house publisher Bob Guccioni and others. Stiffed as

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Speaker 1: an original podcast from iHeartMedia and Crooked Media. It's produced

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Speaker 1: by Crooked Media. It's hosted and written by me Jennifer

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Speaker 1: Romalini and produced by Megan Donnas. Sidney Rapp is our

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Speaker 1: associate producer, Story editing by Mary Knopf, music sound design

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Speaker 1: and engineering by Hannis Brown. Our fact checker is Julia Paskin.

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Speaker 1: Additional production support from Nafola Cato and Ines Maza from

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Speaker 1: Crooked Media. Our executive producers are Sarah Geismer, Katy Long,

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Speaker 1: and Mary Knopf, with special thanks to Alison Falzetta and

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Speaker 1: Lyra Smith from iHeartMedia. Our executive producers Beth Anne Macaluso

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Speaker 1: and Julia Weaver h