1 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: A family wiped out in their riverside, California home. Just 2 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: let those words sink in for a moment. A family 3 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: wiped out inside their home. A triple homicide, and I 4 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: don't know how to put this ugold be worse than 5 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: a triple homicide, but a triple homicide of an entire 6 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: family with a deeply twisted motive. I Nancy Grace, this 7 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here 8 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and Serious X one eleven. First of all, 9 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: take a listen to this the details You'll make your 10 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,639 Speaker 1: heart sink. This is the home where it happened. It's 11 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: still a crime scene. And the lady next store says 12 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: she was more like family than a nextdoor neighbor. She 13 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: had actually just gotten the turkey out of the refrigerator 14 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: and walked outside for a second, saw the smoke and 15 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: the flames coming out of the front of the house. 16 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: Mortified and horrified, she called nine one one. This son 17 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 1: of a he just has no clue what he took 18 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: away from this world. For more than twenty years, they 19 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: were next door neighbors and the best kind. Every neighborhood 20 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: needs a Winic family because they just were the all 21 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: American loven, caring, supporting family that you can ever ask for. 22 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: You're hearing our friends at Fox eleven and what she 23 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: just said. Every lead I've got, every person that's been 24 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: spoken to, agrees it's the all American family, the kind 25 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: on the front of the Hallmark card, scrubbed and sunshine. 26 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: So why are they all dead in their homes? And 27 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: to go another step, the home is set on fire. 28 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: There's a lot of reasons that a home can be 29 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: set on fire. To Daryl Cohen joining me, high profile 30 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: lawyer in the Atlanta jurisdiction, former felony prosecutor and one 31 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: of the biggest murder capitals in the country. Now private lawyer, 32 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, you and I have dealt with a lot 33 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: of homicides many I don't know how many homicides I 34 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: either investigated as we would do before we would ever 35 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: dream of entering a guilty plea to trial, much less covered. 36 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: But when you see a murder and the scene is 37 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: set on fire, that tells me something that this perp 38 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: is different from every other killer. When you find down, 39 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, that the purpose set the home on fire 40 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: in a lovely residential area, what does that tell you 41 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: before you even open the case file. Two words nancy, 42 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: cover up, Cover it up, hope that the fire and 43 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: the ashes take all of the evidence and put it 44 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: away where it's not going to be seen by law enforcement, 45 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: by arson investigators exactly. So you know immediately when somebody 46 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: sets the murder scene on fire, they are also staging. Now, 47 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: staging doesn't have to mean like in BTK, buying torture 48 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: killed Dennis Rador. He was the dogcatcher, Okay, stright one, 49 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: he's a dogcatcher. He would see his victims, women girls 50 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: on his dogcatching route, would go back, rape, torture, murder them, 51 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: and then he would hang around the house because he 52 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: knew who would be coming home and when when would 53 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: the husband or the dad would be coming home from work. 54 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: He would stay in there and pose the victims. He'd 55 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: put makeup on them, He'd dressed them up in weird outfits. 56 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: He'd positioned their bodies. You know, Ted Bundy did that too. 57 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: He would bathe the dead victims and then do their 58 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: hair and makeup. That said, that's elaborate staging, but setting 59 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: the home on fire it's also staging. Anything a perp 60 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: does to the scene postmortem is staging, and it gives 61 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: us a window into who the perp might be. I mean, 62 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: think about it. Detective Rich with Stocky joining me, President 63 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: of be Sure consulting thirty years in law enforcement, including 64 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: swat detective. Typically, when you kill somebody, you want to 65 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: get out of there. You don't want to be near 66 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: the dead body, you don't want to be the scene, 67 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: near the scene, you don't want to be seen, you 68 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: don't want to leave your fingerprints. But some perhaps stay 69 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: to stage the same. Have you ever seen that? What 70 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: does that say to you? Detective? Yeah? Absolutely. A lot 71 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: of times professional hitman will use this, but they'll do 72 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: a lot better job than this guy did. So three 73 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: dead bodies, the house going up in flames. Take a 74 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: list of our friends at NBC four LA. Nobody could 75 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: imagine this crime happening to my family, to our family, 76 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: But the unthinkable did happen to Michelle Blanden's family. Her father, 77 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: Mark Winnock, mother Sherry, and younger sister Brooke. The last 78 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: time she saw them was on Thanksgiving. One day later, Mark, Sherry, 79 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: and Brooke were found dead inside the riverside home on 80 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: Price Court that Michelle grew up in. She was at 81 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: a store when a longtime friend and neighbor urgently called 82 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: her in a panic. She called to tell us that 83 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: we needed to get there as soon as we could 84 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: because my parents house was on fire Riverside police inside 85 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:04,119 Speaker 1: her father, mother, and younger sister had been murdered. So 86 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: this girl gets a call to rush home that the 87 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: home is on fire. I've spoken to a lot of 88 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: arson victims, and there's something about the burning of your home. 89 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: Thank Heaven, I have not experienced that. I hope I 90 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: never do. But there's some feeling that goes through the 91 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: victim's hearts and minds and soul when they see everything 92 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: they own in the world and all their memories just 93 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: going up in flames. Little does this girl know that 94 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: when she gets back, it's not just the home that 95 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 1: she has lost. She has lost her family as well. 96 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: So why burn the place up to eradicate the evidence? 97 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: So why is it so important to get rid of 98 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: the dead bodies? What do we know about the victims? 99 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: What do we know about this family? Is there something 100 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: nefarious going on with them? Is there something that neighbors 101 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: of twenty years somehow missed? Well, take a listen to this. 102 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: My sister Brooke was a loving single mom who did 103 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: her best to raise her two teenage daughters in a 104 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: loving way. My dad, Mark, the silly old man that 105 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: I referenced him, always referenced him to be, was a 106 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: soft spoken and humble man who would go out of 107 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: his way to help a friend or stranger in need. 108 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: My mom, Sherry, the matriarch of our family, with the 109 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: biggest giving heart imaginable, did anything and everything for everyone. 110 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: So you've got the daughter spitting out about each one 111 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: of her family members. There's nothing to say, you know, 112 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: in our line of business, we always think that there's 113 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: another side to the story. How could this seemingly normal 114 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: family be the target of a mass killing? What are 115 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: we missing? Let me go straight out to special guests 116 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: joining us Kristin Kwan to BC y B joining us 117 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: from Bristol. Kristen question, what do we know about the 118 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: area where the fire occurred and the murders. It's my 119 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: understanding that it's a beautiful residential area. Yes, so it 120 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: happened in Liverside Bloshere, a south neighborhood just after eliven Am. Yeah, 121 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: it's described as a very very beautiful area in a 122 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: nice neighborhood. Kristin Kwan joining me WCYB, Bristol. I heard 123 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: her say something very interesting to me, Daryl Cohen, you 124 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: prosecuted a lot of inner city crimes. I learned after 125 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: my first jury trial to try to find witnesses after 126 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: three pm because all the dopers and all the narrow duels, 127 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: all the bad guys typically are up all night and 128 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 1: then they sleep. So if I need to find a 129 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: no good witness, don't even try till after three o'clock. 130 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: On the other hand, if I want to go find 131 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: the lady school bus driver or a mom that may 132 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: have witnessed something in the neighborhood, you can go anytime 133 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: from seven am on. But if you want to get 134 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: a bad guy, they're like vampires. They are up all 135 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: night and they sleep all day. My point is eleven 136 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: am triple murder and arson. That is a little out 137 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: of the stereotypical pattern of crime, very different and see 138 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: than the normal crime, very unusual during the middle of 139 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 1: the morning or late morning. Too many people can see it. 140 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: To me, people are driving by haphazardly. It's highly unusual 141 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: and highly unlikely it would happen. Sadly, it did and 142 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: it was nis. Okay, you did say eleven am, right, 143 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: Kristin Kwan, Yeah, okay, eleven am. And you know what, 144 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: when I would prepare cases, I'd try to find out 145 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: if there were similar transactions, if this perp had done 146 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: anything like that in the past, so I could use 147 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: it to prove scheme of course of conduct, to frame 148 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: of mind of the case in chief. Very often I 149 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: would find crimes were committed at about the same time 150 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: of the day. Like I was telling him about BTK, 151 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: he would strike while the man at the house wasn't there. 152 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: Same thing with the Golden State Killer, remember that Jackie 153 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: Joseph de'angelo. He would watch a woman's home and wait 154 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: till the man was gone. In fact, one of his 155 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: victims says she had just heard her husband. She was 156 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 1: in bed with her two or three year old boy, 157 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: and she just heard the husband leave, shut the door, 158 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: car crank up, leave and as she thought, oh my goodness, 159 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: he's coming back in. He must have forgotten something. But 160 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 1: it was the Golden State Killer watching the house. All 161 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: of his crimes same time of day. Eleven am does 162 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: not fit a triple homicide arson pattern, But as Daryl 163 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: Cohen said, that's how it happened. But let's just wait 164 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: a minute. Dave Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Riverside, 165 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: California has many, many facets to it. What can you 166 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: tell me about Riverside? Right? Riverside is about an hour 167 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: and a half west southwest of Los Angeles, so it's 168 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: an area that is very middle class. It's got a 169 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: lot of neighborhoods, you know, just as we see with 170 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: this particular one. There's nothing extraordinary about Riverside and not 171 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 1: knocking it. It's just another typical southern California community. But 172 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: wait a minute. Three dead bodies in the home, and 173 00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: that would be the single mom of two teen girls, 174 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: the grandparents, her parents, but there's someone missing. Where's the girl? 175 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at cal nine. He 176 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: knew what he was doing, He knew what he was 177 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: doing exactly, but thank goodness, he made a lot of 178 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: mistakes parking in the driveway, having somebody see him. A 179 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: neighbor took this photo out of her window of the 180 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: suspect's red carner driveway, thinking it might have been stolen 181 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: and dumped here. It was ten thirty in the morning 182 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: last Friday, minutes before the Winno's home started burning. The neighbor, 183 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: who asked not to be named, told me that she 184 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 1: saw dressed in a black trench coat and face mask 185 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: walking with the fifteen year old who lives in the house. 186 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: They were getting into the red car. She was trying 187 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: to mount the words to me, but nothing came out. 188 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: The neighbor said, I looked down and saw she was barefoot. 189 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: She was crying a little bit. She didn't try to 190 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: make a run for it. There's the girl, the fifteen 191 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: year old teen girl being forced out of the home 192 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: by a guy wearing a black trench coat and a 193 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: face mask, crying and barefoot. Crime stories with Nancy Grace 194 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: straight out to kristin Kwanda. You cyb Bristol Kristen, what 195 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: exactly did the neighbors see? So the neighbors saw him, 196 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: saw a man with a trench polon and he had 197 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: the scroll holding her hand, and she appeared really really distressed. 198 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: And that was the reason that she called nine one 199 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: one and she called police. It's now interesting days mac. 200 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: The same woman had noticed a red zhicle and even 201 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: took a picture of it. What do you know about that? 202 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: What happened with that day. Well, that actually is what 203 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: got her. Really, Thank god for a neighbor that's paying attention, okay, 204 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: because without her, Nancy, we don't have the answers to 205 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: this story. Without her, we don't know who let the house, 206 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: We don't know anything. Actually, without this neighbor, and not 207 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: directly next door, a little a couple of houses away, 208 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: she sees this red car and she mentions she thought 209 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: maybe somebody had stole it and they just dumped it 210 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: right there in that driveway. That's why she took the picture. 211 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: That was her thought. But she paid close enough attention 212 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: so that they could get the picture of the car. 213 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: They had a license plate, they had all the information 214 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: they needed because it didn't belong there. When she sees 215 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: bill girl, okay, the girl was barefoot and she the 216 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: woman could tell that it looked like she had been crying. 217 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: So while she says that she didn't make a run 218 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: for it, well there was enough other you know, the 219 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: way she was acting that the woman knew this is 220 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: not right. There is something wrong. So red card should 221 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: not be parked in my driveway. A girl shouldn't be 222 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: barefoot walking with another man where she looks like she's franking. 223 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: You know, it's amazing to me. Joining me Scott and 224 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: Johnson forensic psychologists, joining us out of Minnesota, thirty two 225 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: years in the business, author of When I Love You 226 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: Turns violent and physical abusers and sex offenders. You can 227 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: find them at Forensic Consultation dot Org. Scott Johnson. Isn't 228 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: it the human mind? Amazing? And that is why I 229 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: always wanted to question witnesses myself, of course before you 230 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: put them on a stand, but in depth in a 231 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: casual setting, like in their home or their comfy or 232 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: their apartment, and go through the story very slowly, and 233 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: you ask us it may really be irrelevant, like what 234 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: exactly did you see? What were they wearing? Did you 235 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: see their face? What was their demeanor? Did they have 236 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: anything in their hands? Did you see a car nearby? 237 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: Was anybody else around? Just a million questions. And this 238 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: woman remembers the teen girl was barefoot and it struck 239 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: her as odd. Isn't that amazing that she sees a 240 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: man and a girl walking out of the house and 241 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: that one thing struck her as odd? Absolutely, And it's 242 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: the thing that sensory wise her brain picked up on that. 243 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: It just didn't look right, the man's dress the way 244 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: he is, the girl's looking scared, and she has no 245 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: shoes on, and so those things kind of get tattooed 246 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: in the brain and think God that they did notice 247 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: these things. So for right now, Oh, I've got his 248 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: red car to go on. That's not helping us a 249 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: lot to Doctor Tim Gallagher, joining US medical Examiner for 250 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: the entire state of Florida. You can find him at 251 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: pathcaremad dot com. Lecturer University Florida Medical School and founder 252 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. I would 253 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: be in hog Heaven at that conference, doctor Gallagher. It's 254 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: a misconception that you can burn bodies to the extent 255 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: there will be no evidence left explain, all right, That's 256 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: a common misnoma. Actually, sometimes burning the body you would 257 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: actually create more evidence. One of the things that we 258 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: need to know in cases of victims who are in 259 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: fires is were they killed before the fire was set 260 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: or did they die as a result of the fire. 261 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: And by then we can establish a timeline, you know, 262 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: for certain acts that the suspect may have committed. You 263 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: know what you're making me think of, rest off the 264 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: top of my head, the Teresa hallbock Case. She a 265 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: twenty something amateur photographer. She was taking photos for the 266 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: Penny Pincher type. It was Auto Trader. That was Yeah, 267 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: those free little newspapers you get when you go into 268 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: the grocery store. They're right there at the doors, like 269 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: Penny Pincher Auto Trader. She went to the home. You're 270 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: gonna remember this making a murderer on one of the 271 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: streaming was the HBO or Netflix, Thank you trying to 272 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 1: pretend that Stephen Avery was innocent. Well, let me tell you. 273 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: Her teeth and the studs off the back of her 274 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: daisy flintest blue jeans were found in a fire pit 275 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: in his backyard. Anyway, by burning her in the fire pit, 276 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: he thought he got rid of all the evidence. But 277 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: the teeth state, what's different about the teeth and the bones, 278 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: Doctor Gallagher, Well, the teeth and bones are created mostly 279 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: by kelsey, and calcium is not flammable, so everything around 280 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: it would be incinerate it, leaving the calcium behind. So teeth, bones, 281 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: and a lot of the even if the person had 282 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 1: a medical device within them, for instance, a pacemaker or 283 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: a breast implant or some kind of other medical device 284 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 1: that would stay behind with the serial number on it, 285 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: and then we can use that serial number to identify 286 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: whose remains. Those are Wow a question When you go 287 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: to a dinner or a party or something like that, 288 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: the people ask you medical examiner questions about why in 289 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: the bounds burn and the teeth remain, or questions like that, 290 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: or can identify the victim by the serial number on 291 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: her breast implant? Do they ask you things like that 292 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: or do you just chat about politics and weather just curious? No, 293 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: they do ask me things like that. They have to 294 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: kind of make myself aware that are they asking me 295 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: like how to get away with the perfect crime or 296 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: you know, so I just kind of have to taper 297 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: my answer the little bit. I don't want to be 298 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: an encyclopedia for someone trying to get away with something elicit. Well, 299 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: I assure you that's not why I'm asking. It also 300 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: brings to mind Josh Powell. May he rot in hell 301 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 1: with Satan forever. Josh Powell first kills his wife, Susan Powell, 302 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: not prosecuted. Then he gets visitation with his two boys. 303 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: Imagine that they go over to his home. He chops 304 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: them with an axe in the neck and then sets 305 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: the whole house on fire, another instance of trying to 306 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: burn away the emmas. Well, let me query you with 307 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: another question. One the three dead bodies and a missing 308 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: girl have to do with the sale of a home 309 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: all the way across the country from Riversy, California and Virginia. 310 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: Take a listen to Ashley Hope, wc YB. According to 311 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 1: Smith County, Virginia records, Edwards also recently purchased to home 312 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: in Saltville from Jacob Gordon. I had the house in 313 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: the market for just a few hours, and you know, 314 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: I got a full price offer, and you know, I 315 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: was told it was a Virginia State trooper and we 316 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: went from there. Indeed, for the property on Alison Gap 317 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: Road was recorded on November fourteenth. He was only behind 318 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: me for about eight days. You know, he was actually 319 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: very nice accommodating. He offered to help me on my home. 320 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: After purchasing the home, it appears he blacked out windows 321 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: and put up dark curtains. That it was really weird. 322 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: And then of course the owner told me also that 323 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: he required that they sent the video of the basement. 324 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: I mean, he didn't see the property before he purchased it, 325 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: but he required a video of the basement, which seemed 326 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: really weird. Us. Okay, let me understand what I just heard, 327 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: joining me Kristin Kwan ABC Y B. First of all, 328 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: where is Smith County, Virginia? Smith County, Virginia is in 329 00:21:52,920 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: the southwestern area of Virginia, close to northeast Tennessee. Very area, 330 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: very rural area. Now you know, I'm not a realtor, 331 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: Darrel Cohen, never been interested in real estate law, although 332 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: my real estate professor James Rayburg scared everybody stiff. But 333 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: how typical is it? I mean, you've got people within 334 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: your practice, not you, that deal with real estate closings 335 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: to buy a home site and seen, yet you insist 336 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: on seeing a video of the basement. First, Nancy, I've 337 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: been around a long time. But by the way, Professor 338 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: Rayburgh scared that. You know what out of me is? Yeah, 339 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: his nickname was death Ray. I just maybe you wouldn't 340 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: call him. You have eye contact, so that should have 341 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: been his real name, not his nickname. But for someone 342 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: to buy a home unseen is at best unlikely. For 343 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: someone to buy a home unseen and want to see 344 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: a picture of the basement video. What does that tell 345 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: you they're up to something that's absolutely bad, is nefarious, 346 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: it's unbelievable, and it's got to be on every real 347 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: estate agent's radar. This ain't right. Yeah, it makes me 348 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: think of, Oh, my son has just gotten into breaking 349 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: bad where the high school teacher has a meth lab, 350 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: but it's not in his home, but he has the 351 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: secret places he does it. That would be my first thought. 352 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: They're putting a meth lab down there. But what about this? 353 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: So it's a very rural area and as soon as 354 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: he buys a home he blacks out the windows and 355 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: puts up dark curtains. Is that not ring any bells 356 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: of alarm in your minds? Because it sure is mine. 357 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: So who is this guy? Take a listen again to 358 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: Ashley Hooke. I asked Gordon if he had many interactions 359 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: with Edwards. He kept to his self. He really didn't 360 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: have a lot to say. I actually invited him to 361 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: have the dinner with me and my family one night, 362 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: and you know he whiely de clown and others in 363 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 1: the area, saying Edwards reportedly visited places in town wearing 364 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: a trench coat. Yes, he had a strange presence about him. 365 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: My wife said so. And of course the guy who 366 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: lived in front of him that I know, he said 367 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: that he had a very strange presence, that the guy 368 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: was very weird, creepy, kept in his house. He didn't 369 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: get out a lot short time here, he'd already set 370 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: off alarms. To Detective Rich was Stocky, joining us thirty 371 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: years in the business now an expert. Detective was Stocky. 372 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: Question to you, how many times has the victim or 373 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: witness said, I don't know what it was, it was 374 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: just something weird about him many times? Is unbelievable to 375 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: me that, especially when we talk about in my presentations 376 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 1: with moms, moms are never wrong. God has given moms 377 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 1: a sense of protecting their children. And sometimes the mistakes 378 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: that troll losers make when they're going to these calls 379 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: and the taking the report is that they doubt what 380 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: the feeling is of people around the area, and especially moms. 381 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: So I always make it a point when I train 382 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: my police officers in cybercrime that never discount what the 383 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: mom says, or somebody that's been out in the neighborhood 384 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: is retired and watches everything that goes on because they're 385 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,719 Speaker 1: a great wealth of information because they know when something's 386 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: out of place, and you're hearing the voice of a 387 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: season detective, so you know that these witnesses are talking 388 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: about an individual that ultimately ends up to be a perpetrator. 389 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: So Scott Johnson joining me, forensic psychologist Shorting out of 390 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: Minnesota and author Scott, I've theorized about this many many 391 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: times that I'm just a JD. You're the shrink, and 392 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: I mean that in a loving and caring way. There's 393 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: something and I really believe it's not just a hunch. 394 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: It's something born over a thousand and thousands of years 395 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: of evolution. Possibly something we ourselves don't realize that we're 396 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: picking up on. Maybe a look in the eye, maybe 397 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: on a wrong word, a demeanor. But very often I 398 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: get a sense about someone, as do the majority of 399 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: my witnesses that I have dealt with. They get a vibe, 400 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: as my daughter calls it, what is that right? And 401 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 1: it's noticing again, something that's just out of the ordinary, 402 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: and therefore it stands out in the brain. We expect 403 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: a certain person to act a certain way in a 404 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: certain situation, and yet we don't see that, we see 405 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: something different and so it stands out as odd and 406 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: it kind of bothers us. But we're not always sure 407 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: what to do with it. Yeah, because we don't really 408 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: understand where we're getting the information, why we feel that way. 409 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: How many times, Jack, have you said, Okay, something's not right, 410 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with him, and it usually is at him. Sorry, 411 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: guys often. So you've got this guy all the way 412 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 1: over in Virginia, as our new friend christ and Quantas 413 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: told us, very rural area near the Virginia Tennessee line, 414 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: blacking out his windows, getting a video of the basement 415 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: buying the house full price site unseen. What does that 416 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: have to do the three dead bodies and a house 417 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: on fire? Take a listen to Tony schen NBC four. 418 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: Catfishing led to the deaths of the three most important 419 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: people in my life, my dad, my mom, and my sister, 420 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: which is why Michelle is pleading with parents to talk 421 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: to their kids about this tragedy so hopefully it won't 422 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: happen to anyone else's family. He was a sheriff's deputy 423 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: in Virginia, but he developed an inappropriate online relationship with 424 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: a fifteen year old girl here in Riverside. Authorities say 425 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: he drove across the country to meet her and then 426 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: eventually murdered three members of his family. Catfishing, catfishing. You've 427 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: got this guy all the way in Virginia. You've got 428 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 1: three dead people and a missing teen girl in Riverside, California. Catfishing. 429 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace joining me right now. Special 430 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: guest Titania Jordan, chief parenting and marketing officer at Bark Technology. 431 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: I've got Bark. I'm not a pas boats person, not 432 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: getting a dime out of it, but I've got it 433 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: on my phone, and so does my husband. She's the 434 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: author appearanting in a tech world to telling you what 435 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: is catfishing. It's a call for term for an activity 436 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: that's been around as long as there's been an Internet, 437 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: namely pretending to be somebody else online. And it's gut 438 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: wrenching to hear this story, and even more gut wrenching 439 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: to know that at Bark we're sending alerts daily around 440 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: predatory behavior, risky contact, sextortion. In many cases we have 441 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: to notify major entities like Nick Mick, the National Center 442 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: for Missing Exploited Children. What exactly is it? What exactly 443 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: is cat fishing. Yes, it's the act of creating a 444 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: false identity and then interacting with somebody for a specific purpose, 445 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: usually to lure them into some sort of relationship. It 446 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: can include mild flirting all the way to years long partnerships. 447 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 1: And the catch is that these people have never and 448 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: will never meet them in real life except for in rare, 449 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: unfortunate circumstances like the one word talking about today. It 450 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: happens so often. I've got twenty pages of similar transactions 451 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: right in front of me. And we saw it most 452 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: recently and the Delphi double murder of Libby an Abbey, 453 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: where a catfisher, a pudgy guy that lived in his 454 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: mom's basement, was using a Justin Bieber lookalike photo to 455 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: lure young girls, including Libby and Abbey, meet up with them, 456 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: get naked photos of them. Turns out his cat fishing 457 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: seemingly has nothing to do with their murders. But it 458 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: was a monkey rinch thrown in the entire double homicide investigation. 459 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: Cat fishing It's happening all the time, and Tatalla Jordan 460 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: just told you what it is. But what does it 461 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: have to do with this Chase. Virginia's cap police tell 462 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: us the suspected shooter served as a trooper right here 463 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: in Matcha, Richmond for about ten months before he resigned 464 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: in October, and then he got a job in the 465 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: Washington County Sheriff's office. They telling me they hired him 466 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: on November sixteenth, just in days before this triple murder. 467 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: Austin Lee Edwards vision more than Ricer. CBS six covered 468 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: edwards graduation from the Virginia State Police Academy back in January. 469 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: A spokesperson says he was hired and entered into the 470 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: academy in July twenty twenty one and was assigned to 471 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: cover hin Rico County when he graduated. Hey, guys, you 472 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: were just hearing our friends at wtv R. Now take 473 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: a listen to Tony sin Investigators say this is the 474 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: man who took their lives. Twenty eight year old Austin 475 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: Lee Edwards, a law enforcement officer from Virginia who police 476 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: say used a fake Internet profile to appear to be 477 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: a seventeen year old boy so he could have an 478 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: online relationship with brooks fifteen year old daughter. It's a 479 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: method of Internet deception called catfishing. He took an oath 480 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: to protect, and yet he failed to do so. Instead, 481 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: he preyed on the most vulnerable. Investigators say after killing 482 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: the Winneck family, Edwards set the home on fire and 483 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: the teenage girl with him to journey and Jordan joining 484 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: us chief parenting officer at Bark Technology. Once the catfisher 485 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: starts talking to the girl. The girl the young girl 486 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: thinks he's sixteen seventeen years old. He then be friends 487 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: are enough online to get valuable information like phone number 488 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: and home address. Of course, sometimes people post photos that 489 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: have their home address in the background, like they're in 490 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: their front yard and you can see maybe their car 491 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: or their home. Why is it important to never give 492 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: out your home address, or where you work, or any 493 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: personal information like that to somebody you don't know. I mean, 494 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: you outlined it clearly, But for everybody that has only 495 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: been half listening, and you are listening right now, pay attention. 496 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: Pay attention to this. Your children need to know that 497 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,239 Speaker 1: the people they're talking to online aren't necessarily who they 498 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: say they are. They can be tricky people. These are 499 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: adults who are highly skilled in one thing, and that 500 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: is tricking them, and they can be the smartest, most loved, 501 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: brilliant children in the planet, and they can still get tricked. 502 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: Your children need to feel comfortable telling you about who 503 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: they talk to online without ramification of doing so. You 504 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: need to stay calm and they need to know that 505 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: this is out there and that you are the safe 506 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: place to detect the rich with Stocky, this is your Llywick. 507 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: How do you tell your children without scaring them? What 508 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: is catfishing? I mean I just say to my son, 509 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: who are you playing with? And he says so, and 510 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: son like, who else? You know? Some other kid? I'm like, 511 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: how do you know? It's not like a sixty five 512 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: year old guy in his underwear I new jersey and 513 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: you're playing with him online. Don't give him your location 514 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: or your real name. How do you tell them without 515 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: scaring them? Detectives? So I teach about one hundred thousand 516 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: kids a year and we talk about this in depth. 517 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: I give them a sure way how you can never 518 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: be catfish. So we talk about five factors of authentication. 519 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: If you can't tell me their first name, their last name, 520 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: their phone number, where they go to school, and where 521 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: they based on what you know to be true physically, 522 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: everyone else online is a liar. So then I asked 523 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: the kids, how many webcams do you have at your disposal? 524 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:18,240 Speaker 1: They'll have a webcam on their Chromebook, their iPad, their desktop, 525 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 1: their tablet, and their phone. So if you are talking 526 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: to someone that you really have not verified who they are, 527 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: and they're asking for personal information with parent or guardian permission, 528 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: tell them, hey, let's go to webcam. I just want 529 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: to make sure you're not catfishing me and I want 530 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 1: to make sure you are who you say you are. Well, 531 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,479 Speaker 1: I tell Detective. I tell the children it's usually my son. 532 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: He can't play with anybody own line that he doesn't 533 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: know in real life he's never met, and I think 534 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: it's working. So that leads me to Detective, where's the girl? 535 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: The last way I heard of her, She's being taken 536 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: out of the house by the guy wearing a trench 537 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 1: coat and barefoot. The search is on for a red car. 538 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: Take a listen to Rick Chambers KTLA. He murdered the 539 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 1: girl's mother, Brooke, and the girl's grandparents, Mark and Cherry Winnock, 540 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: and then set the fire as he dragged the struggling 541 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: team to his car. Neighbors noticed that commotion and called police, 542 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: but by the time they arrived, the home was burning 543 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: and Edwards was already driving back east. But about two 544 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: hours after the murders, police spotted edwards red car on 545 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: Highway two forty seven. SWAT units were called in and 546 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: a pursuit began along Route sixty two in Kelso, though 547 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: Edwards began shooting at the SWAT vehicle. Okay, so this 548 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 1: guy not only has taken the girl, murdered her entire family, 549 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: but now he's shooting at cops. Take a list of 550 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: Fox eleven parked in another neighbor's driveway. They left that woman, 551 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: who described the girl as in distress, gave police his 552 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: license plate. Officers tracked them down halfway to Vegas and 553 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: say during the pursuit, Edwards lost control while shooting at 554 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: police and their chopper. The girl managed to escape to 555 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: safety and police returned fire. Edwards had worked for two 556 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: law enforcement departments in Virginia, with no priors or marks 557 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: against his name. The teenage girl is in the color 558 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: guard at Arlington High School. She's currently in protective custody. 559 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: So this guy has a gun and is brazen enough 560 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: to shoot at cops. To Scott Johnson. That tells me 561 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: he's willing to kill again, even shooting at cops. He's 562 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: already killed three people in order to get this girl 563 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,760 Speaker 1: back to his lair in Virginia with the blacked out 564 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: windows and the heavy curtains. He's willing to kill to 565 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: have sex with a fifteen year old girl, right, And 566 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: you know this psychopathic traits, you know, the minimal of 567 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,399 Speaker 1: any anxiety or fear. You know, they really just don't 568 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: care about tomorrow. They care about today, and so you know, 569 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: to take the risk of being shot and killed, it 570 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: it didn't matter to him, and he just didn't care. 571 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: It was about the power, the control, the fantasy of 572 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: having this victim back in isolation in Virginia, and the 573 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: rest just didn't matter to him. To detected Rich with 574 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: Stocky joining us. And this is a guy that's in 575 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: law enforcement. He's been in a jail before. You know, 576 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: the first time I ever went in full to county jail. 577 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: When I walked out into the parking lot and it 578 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: was a very bleak asphalt parking lot, it was the 579 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: most beautiful thing I've ever seen. Just to get out 580 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: of that jail. This guy knows the consequences was Stocky. 581 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,280 Speaker 1: Absolutely so. I've arrested over three hundred of these internet 582 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,879 Speaker 1: predators and it's butcher, baker, camelstick maker. It could be firefighters, 583 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: police attorneys, doctors. It is always a secret life that 584 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: nobody knows about. And until we hit that door with 585 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: a search warrant, then the cats out of the bag, 586 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: or in this case, when he goes so far does 587 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,439 Speaker 1: these unbelievable horrible acts. Now he knows he's found out. 588 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: I mean Titania Jordan joining us from Bark. You can 589 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: find her at Bark dot us. Titania children and I 590 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: think their parents have no idea what the children are 591 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: up against. The level of deceit, the level of cunning, 592 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: the brazen character of these online predators. This guy has 593 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: already killed three that we know of, and willing to 594 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: kill cops to get this girl alone in that blacked 595 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: out basement. It's disgusting, it's angering. You know. The cattish 596 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,760 Speaker 1: knowingly uses flattery and emotional manipulation as an adult against 597 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: children to kick start a connection and then nurtures it steadily. 598 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: It can happen to any one of us, you know. 599 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: Detective Richwistock, he says, so many times. Not my kid, 600 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: not my kid. It absolutely can't be your kids. It 601 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: could be my kid. Daryl Cohen is joining me, former 602 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: felony prosecutor, now a civil attorney. Daryl, you and I 603 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: have spent way too much time in the Fulton County jail. 604 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: Once you've been in that place, you never you never 605 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: want to go to jail ever. But this guy is 606 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 1: so driven by his demons, he'll do anything to get 607 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: this girl, Nancy. Once you've spent one minute in the 608 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,800 Speaker 1: Fulton County jail, that's one minute too long. It's horrible, 609 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,720 Speaker 1: and it is indicative of so many jails. This guy. 610 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: Yes he is praised, Yes he is evil, Yes he 611 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 1: is wrong, and it's hard to look into his mind. 612 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: Christ and Kuan Wcyb joining us from Bristol, Kristen. Where 613 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: is the girl now? The girl now is in protected services. 614 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: She'd be able to get away. I pray that she 615 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: doesn't go to a foster home, that she goes to 616 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: live with family. And now she is dealing with not 617 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: only being in the car with a guy trying to 618 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: rape her, but the murdyr of her mother and her grandparents, 619 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,280 Speaker 1: and her home up in flames because of this guy, 620 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 1: this Catfisher, well, you may be happy to know that 621 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: when he opened fire on the cops, they shot him dead. 622 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: But this girl has a lifetime sentence of pain. Nancy 623 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: Grace Grum story Sunning Off, Goodbye Friend,