1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello, and a Happy Casual Friday. 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry, I'm Tracy V. Wilson. So this week 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: we talked about Crisis. Yep, oh, Crisus, Bless your heart. 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: The one thing that I mentioned in the episode that 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: I was kind of saving for this was the discussion 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: of Cresus Son, who had a very mild disability, which 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: also has kind of a happy ending. We talked about how, 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: in the writings of Herodotus, Crisis basically says like this 10 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: kid doesn't even exist to me. He was just mute. 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: There was nothing wrong with him, he just didn't speak. 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: And it came up in one of his many consultations 13 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: with the Oracle of Delphi that the day your mute 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: son speaks will be a day of like I I 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: don't know the exact quote, will be like a day 16 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: of misery for you essentially, and basically the story he 17 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: goes that as a Persian soldier was rushing at creases 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 1: as that invasion of Startus was going on, that the sun, 19 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: whose name I never found, kind of runs towards this 20 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: Persian soldier and says no, no, you must not kill Creasus, 21 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: And that's the first thing he ever says, but then 22 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 1: he speaks completely normally for the rest of his life, 23 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: which is just an interesting and weird thing. It's never 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: like contextualized as like what happens to that kid after 25 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: creasus death, um, or his leaving to go to the 26 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: Land of Giants, or his becoming part of the court 27 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: of Cyrus the second. It's just an interesting thing that 28 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: this this character I'm I'm kind of using ear quotes 29 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: since so much of this is fictionalized and not verifiable, 30 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: becomes sort of this strange prop where their disability gets 31 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: used as like part of the oracle story. Yeah, which 32 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: is just interesting and I just wanted to point it out. 33 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: Should anybody go looking for this, like obviously, um, I 34 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: don't think we need to say like different times. It 35 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: was clearly different times and things like disabilities were looked 36 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: at very differently, but also like it becomes a weird 37 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: thing when you use it and say like no, no, 38 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: but they will also be a harbinger and then their 39 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,119 Speaker 1: life will seem fine. But there's a lot of mess there. 40 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: I feel like it's almost a precursor of ways of 41 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: tropes about disability that still exists today. Like the tropes 42 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: about disabilities, like people disabled, people having like some other 43 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: superpower is like just a fictional a trope that's used 44 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: in fiction a lot um and the like. Also the 45 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: attitudes about disability in general. It's like the an overlap 46 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: of things that still persist in culture and in the 47 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: world today, but also in like a slightly different tone 48 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: at the time. Yeah, yeah, I mean it does make 49 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: entirely clear, right, we talk out things all the time, 50 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: not just you and I, but culturally it is often 51 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: discussed all of these tropes and like the damaging nature 52 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: of some of these ideas, and it's a lot to 53 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: undo and to fight against. And just know, for anyone 54 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: who feels frustrated trying to like move the discussion forward 55 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: in a positive way, that that we are fighting things 56 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: that have been going on since the BC times. Like 57 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: it is a long process and I'm glad for the 58 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: progress that has been made. There is still a lot 59 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: more to go, but like know that that this is 60 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: deeply ingrained and that is why that it is so 61 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: hard to make progress sometimes. Anyway, that was my little 62 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: didactic moment. I definitely love the idea of um the 63 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: Kingdom of Lydia getting rich off of King Midas washing 64 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: his hand. Yeah, that's pretty fun um. I like all 65 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: the beats of all of the oracle stories. Yeah, because 66 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: they also are so similar to things that you will 67 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: read in like Greek tragedies and whatnot, and like that's 68 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: the thing where I'll just be like, did it did it? 69 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: This seems like a thing in the story that's there 70 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: to learn a lesson more so, which is uh additionally 71 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: funny to me because so much of the way we 72 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: talk about history in a less obvious way of the 73 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: lot a lot of times is also about reinforcing a lesson, 74 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: like like the the way especially like nations look back 75 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: on their own history and teach their own history. Like 76 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: a lot of it is about reinforcing ideas in a 77 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: didactic way, even if it's not quite as obvious as 78 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: as like and then Cresus had done the thing that 79 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: the oracle said, but he didn't realize. Yeah it is. 80 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: There's definitely right, Like there are narrative conventions at a 81 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: that have clearly been driving the bus in terms of 82 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 1: how some of these histories and you've got to use 83 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: the air quotes at that point are written because you 84 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: just picture you know, Herodotous writing and being like, yeah, 85 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: but you know what make this really cool? And then 86 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: there's a rain cloud sent by Zeus. This is amazing, 87 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: you guys. Anyway, that is Crisis. It's interesting. I like, 88 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: I like looking at some of these really really ancient 89 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: history pieces because you see how they start to fit together. 90 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: Like I said, we had covered the Acumenant Empire and 91 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: this dovetails on that. But also a Stracy said, it 92 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: makes it wildly apparent that even the histories we know 93 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: have roots in reality, we we still don't know so 94 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: much about them. Yeah, I mean there is still a 95 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: lot of archaeological interest in Lydia and finding more evidence 96 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: of Crisis and his palace and his lifetime him uh 97 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: and hopefully one day we'll get like a mother load, 98 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: but one never knows, but it does sort of evidence 99 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: how hard you still have to work to kind of 100 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: get to the bottom of the matter, especially when we're 101 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: talking about the sixth century BC. One of our episodes 102 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: this week was on the Women's War in colonial Nigeria, 103 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: in which, as I said in that episode, was something 104 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: I just found a passing reference to while researching another 105 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: show and immediately put it on the list. It reminds 106 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: me a tiny bit of the War of the Golden 107 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 1: Stool that we talked about in a really old episode, 108 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: because it was similarly an uprising against British colonization and colonialism. 109 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: But the other thing that I didn't get into in 110 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: this episode at all, UM, is that back in the 111 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, a woman named Judith Van Allen wrote an 112 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: article called Sitting on a Man, Colonialism and the Lost 113 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: Political Institutions of Ebo Women, and it was originally published 114 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: in the Canadian Journal of African Studies UM. And this 115 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: has become a really foundational paper about specifically Ebo women 116 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: in this aspect of African history. UM to the point 117 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: that the Journal of West African History and had this 118 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: whole issue that was like a retrospective on that one paper. 119 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: And I read so many of the papers from that issue. 120 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: One of them was by the original author who was 121 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: kind of talking about her her process of writing this 122 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: this paper and how when she originally wrote it she 123 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: was angry about so many social issues that were happening 124 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: at that moment. Uh. And then another was a really 125 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: fascinating one by a professor in an African History program, 126 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: talking about how a lot of her students who were 127 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: like taking their first African history class, a lot of 128 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: them were like very well meaning white students who were 129 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: pursuing this education with the intent of like then going 130 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: to Africa where they were like help and the original 131 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: sitting on a man paper being something that like completely 132 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: shifted their viewpoint from being like it is the responsibility 133 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: of white Americans and Europeans to help the people of Africa, 134 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: to like recognizing that in a lot of ways colonialism 135 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: was not helping the people of Africa or the women 136 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: of Africa, and like the whole paper was about this, 137 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: like this one paper becoming a light switch moment for 138 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: generations of students that finned And I was like, wow, 139 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: that's how much impact to have, uh in this one paper. Yeah, 140 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: it's interesting, Right, we are still breaking down the ideas 141 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: that colonialism entrenched in the white Western world, right, Like 142 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: there are still so many stories of fiction even but 143 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: also again well meaning but not uh well informed, instances 144 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 1: of like white savior syndrome. And it's like this all 145 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: goes back to that, you guys, like we have been 146 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: told for literally centuries at this point that we know 147 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: better than other people, which is just mind your business. Yeah, 148 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: well it is the very is the very blunt and 149 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: not necessarily informed way to put it either. But like 150 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: it's so presumptive and it's hard to get over, Like 151 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: we have all fallen into that trap and it's hard 152 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: to get over. So I'm not even saying that as 153 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: a judge thing. It's like a reminder to myself as well, like, no, 154 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: you have one lens and that's great, but like that 155 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're perceiving everything as it is in reality. Yeah, 156 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: Like number one, Like I would say that that both 157 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: of us on this podcast have definitely had times that 158 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: we have like inadvertently fallen into that trap, and that 159 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: it's like a lifelong learning process to undo a lot 160 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: of those thought patterns and that we will always be 161 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: working on it. Another thing is that it was really 162 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: important to me in this episode to get sources that 163 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: did not feel like they were just parroting the colonial 164 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: view and so like if if the book that I 165 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: was reading, you know that it's authors were American or 166 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: or not not from anywhere in Africa, Like, it was 167 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: super important to me to then go read reviews of 168 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: that book by African and preferably Nigerian people to be like, Okay, 169 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: how does this book hold up? Is? This? Is this 170 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: what I should be spending my time on? Um? It 171 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: was like an extra layer of diligence with this, so 172 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: hopefully I got to the write space with it. UM. 173 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: I also just kind of love the practice of sitting 174 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: on a man um. Some of the songs by British standards, 175 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: we're very racy, which of course like made the whole 176 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: British response to it even more like and like baffled 177 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: horror of what was happening, such pearl clutching. Yeah, a 178 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: lot of it. Uh So, thank you once again for 179 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: joining us here on Stuff you Missed History Class for 180 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: our casual Friday. 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