WEBVTT - Judging Sam: Week 3 is in the books

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Judging Sam. I'm Jacob Goldstein and we're recording

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<v Speaker 1>this on Thursday, October nineteenth. The third week of the

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<v Speaker 1>trial of Sam Bankman Freed wrapped up today and the

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<v Speaker 1>prosecution is all but done presenting their case. Their last

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<v Speaker 1>big star witness was this week. You know this if

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<v Speaker 1>you've been listening to the show. It was Nishad Singh,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the three main FTX executives who has pleaded guilty.

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<v Speaker 1>Earlier this week, our court reporter Lydia Jenkott talked with

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<v Speaker 1>Michael Lewis about the beginning of Nishad's testimony today, she

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<v Speaker 1>gave him a call to talk about the rest of it.

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<v Speaker 3>So you told me that out of the three top

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<v Speaker 3>FTX executives we've heard from in this trial, you spent

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<v Speaker 3>in the most time with Nishad. What's he like?

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<v Speaker 4>He was the most kid like in a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>ways and also the most earnest. He was it accuse

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<v Speaker 4>twenty one. When he joined Alimea Research, he had basically

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<v Speaker 4>one very short stint in the workforce after college. He

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<v Speaker 4>knew nothing about finance, like zero when he started. So

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<v Speaker 4>everything he learns about the world of money he learns

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<v Speaker 4>through the lens of first Alometer Research and then FTX,

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<v Speaker 4>which is a very peculiar way to learn about finance.

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<v Speaker 4>He was she talked to my element and was very

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<v Speaker 4>bright and kind of free associated when he talked, and

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<v Speaker 4>would take all kinds of stuff that in retrospect, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>it's kind of interesting. Like there's a line in the

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<v Speaker 4>book where he says, you know, in the course of

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<v Speaker 4>doing their trading at al I mean research, where they

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<v Speaker 4>had they did some stuff to kind of get around

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<v Speaker 4>laws to trade. This shot has this line where I

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<v Speaker 4>learned what the law is. It's not what's written, it's

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<v Speaker 4>what people care to enforce, and that he got very

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<v Speaker 4>cynical about the laws around money and was very open

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<v Speaker 4>about it. This is when things were good. He was

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<v Speaker 4>also very open, extremely open about Sam's lack of any

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<v Speaker 4>kind of emotional intelligence and how hard it had been

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<v Speaker 4>on everybody for the previous four years to have this

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<v Speaker 4>guy sitting at the top of the company who did

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<v Speaker 4>not care at all about people's feelings and was uninterested

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<v Speaker 4>in dealing with him, and that all those feelings, especially

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<v Speaker 4>the negative ones, found their way to the Shot, and

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<v Speaker 4>the Shot ended up being kind of, you know, emotional

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<v Speaker 4>intelligence officer in chief. And the Shot was also, in

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<v Speaker 4>addition to being kind of the translator of FAM's emotional

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<v Speaker 4>states or a translator of Sam period to everybody else,

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<v Speaker 4>he was a translator of Gary's code to everybody else.

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<v Speaker 4>That he was this kind of like this machine to

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<v Speaker 4>that acted as a buffer between these two incomprehensible people,

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<v Speaker 4>Gary and Sam and the rest of the of the firm.

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<v Speaker 4>But there's all kinds of stuff that, you know, he was.

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<v Speaker 4>Just how I got to know him was we just

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<v Speaker 4>spent endless hours talking it rings true to me that

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<v Speaker 4>he wasn't alive to the risks they were running with

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<v Speaker 4>customer money until September. He didn't really have a filter

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<v Speaker 4>and he would he would he. I think if the

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<v Speaker 4>shot had known, like he might have blurted it out

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<v Speaker 4>to me in an interview. He was that he was

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<v Speaker 4>that on a naive about things that it w'd be

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<v Speaker 4>a very poor liar.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, maybe that's why he didn't know until so late.

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<v Speaker 3>The other thing I was wondering about is in court

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<v Speaker 3>they showed us these signal messages between Sam Makman and

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<v Speaker 3>Freed and a shad and in one of them he

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<v Speaker 3>says something like this is wildly selfish of me, And

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<v Speaker 3>then he asked Sam Mankman Freed to publicly explain that

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<v Speaker 3>there weren't a ton of people orchestrating what happened, and

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<v Speaker 3>Sam responded, Yeah, I don't think that's super selfish. I

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<v Speaker 3>think that's correct.

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<v Speaker 4>It's funny. Can I just tell you what I found

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<v Speaker 4>interesting about that whole exchange? Yes?

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<v Speaker 3>Please.

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<v Speaker 4>This is a new wrinkle in the financial markets. It's like,

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<v Speaker 4>once they've become automated and they become driven by code,

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<v Speaker 4>people actually doing the code sometimes are capable of doing

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<v Speaker 4>things that are writing code without understanding the consequences of

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<v Speaker 4>the code, without understanding that this line might just lift

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<v Speaker 4>money from somebody it's really bad to lift money from.

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<v Speaker 4>And the kind of myopia of the coder is which

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<v Speaker 4>struck me about that exchange and the shot of saying,

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<v Speaker 4>Sam Christ, now that I know what this was used for,

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<v Speaker 4>I'm implicated because I wrote that code, but I had

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<v Speaker 4>no idea that that code was going to do that.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's interesting. Like old time fans, you wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 4>that old times and finance, there wasn't this level of

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<v Speaker 4>an abstraction. And I think people end up doing stuff

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<v Speaker 4>when when it's being automated that they might not do

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<v Speaker 4>if it was face to face, normal human interaction.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. But Sam's response, Yep, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't think that's super selfish. I think that's correct. That

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<v Speaker 3>implies that he did know what was happening. Now to me,

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<v Speaker 3>it seems pretty damning. It kind of implies that there

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<v Speaker 3>were people orchestrating it and that was Sam impossible.

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<v Speaker 4>Don't you think that? Don't you think the damning thing

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<v Speaker 4>is that Nashad tells Sam tell people that you orchestrated

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<v Speaker 4>it and I didn't.

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<v Speaker 1>And Sam says.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, that's not a selfish request.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, yeah, I thought this was very dad that he

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<v Speaker 4>doesn't say what orchestrate what? Yeah, but amshoes. He may

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<v Speaker 4>be just saying that, oh, I know that, I know

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<v Speaker 4>you didn't know anything. But he's not saying that I

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<v Speaker 4>know I did, right, you know, just the facts of

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<v Speaker 4>the thing are so clear. It's like so clear that

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<v Speaker 4>the money was in the wrong place, and that in

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<v Speaker 4>and of itself is enough to put him in jail.

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<v Speaker 4>And nobody even disagrees with that. But there's this argument

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<v Speaker 4>of there is this subtle argument about like what's going

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<v Speaker 4>on inside these people's heads, and we're getting a little

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<v Speaker 4>more clarity on it, but I don't feel like we've

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<v Speaker 4>had complete clarity. And I really really want to hear

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<v Speaker 4>what Sam has to say. I hope he testifies, because

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<v Speaker 4>that at the end of that, I think we can

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<v Speaker 4>have the full conversation about what seems most plausible. You know,

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<v Speaker 4>what is the timeline on this, It feels most plausible.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I can't wait for that.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll be back in a minute to talk about the

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<v Speaker 1>many things that have happened in the trial. Since Nashad

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<v Speaker 1>finished testifying earlier this week. Lidiagen, Welcome back to judging, Sam.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you. Is it true that you got in trouble

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<v Speaker 1>in court today?

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<v Speaker 3>I did get in trouble in court today.

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<v Speaker 1>What did you do?

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<v Speaker 3>I turned around and asked someone a question when the

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<v Speaker 3>judge and the lawyers were having a side panel conversation,

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<v Speaker 3>and a marshal came up to me and said that

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<v Speaker 3>if I did that again, he's gonna throw me out

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<v Speaker 3>of the courtroom drama.

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<v Speaker 1>This is courtroom drama.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. The marshals have been increasingly angry at the reporters

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<v Speaker 3>for talking, chewing gum, having snacks. They said that this

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<v Speaker 3>judge is the strictest judge in the courthouse and that

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<v Speaker 3>he can see all the way from across the courtroom

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<v Speaker 3>on his little podium if someone is chewing gum and

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<v Speaker 3>then will yell at the marshals afterwards. So that's why

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<v Speaker 3>they have to be so strict.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. So they're like, it's not my fault, it's the judge. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just the middleman.

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<v Speaker 3>And there's been there's been a crackdown. They took someone's

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<v Speaker 3>newspaper away today. So the early days of chatting doing

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<v Speaker 3>crossroad puzzles are over now. It kind of feels like

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<v Speaker 3>when the teachers like tells everyone to put their heads

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<v Speaker 3>on the desk. That's where we're at.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, and there is a break now right as of today,

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<v Speaker 1>there's going to be what a week long break?

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<v Speaker 3>Is that? Right? Yes? Which I think is sorely needed

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<v Speaker 3>by everyone. The judge has definitely been getting antsy. He's

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<v Speaker 3>been getting up and kind of leaning over during testimony.

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<v Speaker 3>He yelled at also both of the lawyers for taking

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<v Speaker 3>too much time. So I think people are running out

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<v Speaker 3>of ink in their pens. I think we all need

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<v Speaker 3>a break.

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<v Speaker 1>Why, I mean, apart from letting everybody chill out for

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<v Speaker 1>a few days, why is there a week long break

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<v Speaker 1>right now?

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<v Speaker 3>The judge is going to a conference.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, I didn't know you could do that. If you

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<v Speaker 1>were a judge'd be like, sorry, world, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>a conference for a week.

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<v Speaker 3>I think you make the rules. It's his courtroom, his rules.

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<v Speaker 1>So legitien. There have been several witnesses since Nishad finished

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<v Speaker 1>testifying earlier this week, and you were telling me earlier

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<v Speaker 1>on Slack that of all of them, the one who

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<v Speaker 1>was most striking to you was can Son, the lawyer,

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<v Speaker 1>the general counsel of FTX, tell me about him. What

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<v Speaker 1>do you say, Why was it interesting to you?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? So, first off, out of all of the FTX executives,

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<v Speaker 3>he seemed like the most comfortable in a suit.

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<v Speaker 1>He's like, lawyers might be keeping the suit industry in

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<v Speaker 1>business at this point, right.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly, And he was pretty self spoken, and he

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<v Speaker 3>started off by saying that he had no idea that

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<v Speaker 3>Alameda was using FTX customer funds. He said that he

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<v Speaker 3>would have never approved that, and he was told over

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<v Speaker 3>and over again by Sam that these customer funds were

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<v Speaker 3>safe and separated. And that's what he told other people

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<v Speaker 3>when they asked, that's what he told customers, that's what

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<v Speaker 3>he told investors. And the prosecutors really spent a good

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<v Speaker 3>ten maybe even thirty minutes, it felt, underlining that point

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<v Speaker 3>and all the different iterations of he did not know

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<v Speaker 3>that this was happening. He would have never authorized this

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<v Speaker 3>in his position as a general counsel.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so he didn't know what was happening. What's in

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<v Speaker 1>it for the prosecution to call him, like, why do

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<v Speaker 1>we care that he didn't know what was happening?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, that's where the dramatic moment came in when he

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<v Speaker 3>talked about when FTX imploded and when customers were trying

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<v Speaker 3>to withdraw their money and they realized that it wasn't there.

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<v Speaker 3>And he talked about how at that point he was

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<v Speaker 3>kind of in a sort of war room with Sam,

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<v Speaker 3>maikman Fried and Nishad. A bunch of other people were

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<v Speaker 3>in that room as well, and he described what it

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<v Speaker 3>was like. He talked about how Sam was on his

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<v Speaker 3>computer typing away and Nishad he was very poetic, and

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<v Speaker 3>how he described Nashad. He said something like how Nishad

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<v Speaker 3>was really pale and looked like his soul had been

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<v Speaker 3>tugged out of him.

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<v Speaker 1>Huh.

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<v Speaker 3>And he said that it was at this point that

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<v Speaker 3>he was shown a balance sheet, and the balance sheet

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<v Speaker 3>showed that Alameda was billions of dollars in the red,

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<v Speaker 3>that they owed this money to FTX, and he was

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<v Speaker 3>really shocked to see this. And at this point Sam

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<v Speaker 3>was still looking for someone who could save FTX, and

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<v Speaker 3>they were trying to figure out, you know, what to do,

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<v Speaker 3>how to share this balance sheet, what to say about it.

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<v Speaker 3>And Ken Sun said that Sam asked him if there

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<v Speaker 3>was any legal explanation that he could give for this deficit,

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<v Speaker 3>for this.

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<v Speaker 1>Whole meaning, is there any story that you could make up,

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<v Speaker 1>any fiction you could create that would make this not

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<v Speaker 1>a crime?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, I think that's the only way to interpret that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes.

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<v Speaker 3>And Can Sun said that they ended up that evening

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<v Speaker 3>going on a walk, and Ken Sun said he had

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<v Speaker 3>done some digging and he thought about it, and he

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<v Speaker 3>told Sam that while there are some legal theories he

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<v Speaker 3>could offer up, there is no legal explanation that's supported

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<v Speaker 3>by the facts.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, So that seems kind of damning. Did he get

0:12:09.236 --> 0:12:10.996
<v Speaker 1>us examined? Did the defense have a chance to ask

0:12:11.116 --> 0:12:11.716
<v Speaker 1>him questions?

0:12:12.796 --> 0:12:14.916
<v Speaker 3>Yes, they brought up how he testified as part of

0:12:14.956 --> 0:12:19.516
<v Speaker 3>a non prosecution agreement, So okay. Can Sun said that,

0:12:20.156 --> 0:12:22.836
<v Speaker 3>you know, he didn't know that this was happening, but still,

0:12:23.356 --> 0:12:25.996
<v Speaker 3>as part of his job as general counsel, he did

0:12:26.796 --> 0:12:30.956
<v Speaker 3>approve certain things that were without his knowledge, certain transactions

0:12:30.956 --> 0:12:33.956
<v Speaker 3>that we're using customer funds. So he said that out

0:12:33.956 --> 0:12:37.436
<v Speaker 3>of an abundance of caution, he is testifying under this

0:12:37.596 --> 0:12:42.276
<v Speaker 3>non prosecution agreement. But the defense lawyers pointed out that

0:12:42.756 --> 0:12:46.276
<v Speaker 3>this non prosecution agreement only stands as long as he's

0:12:46.956 --> 0:12:50.236
<v Speaker 3>saying the truth, and it's the government who gets to

0:12:50.276 --> 0:12:52.636
<v Speaker 3>decide whether or not he's saying the truth. And that's

0:12:52.716 --> 0:12:55.836
<v Speaker 3>just a way of casting doubt on his testimony and

0:12:55.876 --> 0:12:57.756
<v Speaker 3>saying that he has an incentive to say what the

0:12:57.756 --> 0:12:59.316
<v Speaker 3>government wants him to say, uh.

0:12:59.236 --> 0:13:01.956
<v Speaker 1>Huh, which is also true obviously for all the people

0:13:01.956 --> 0:13:03.996
<v Speaker 1>who made plea deals. And that has been the sort

0:13:04.036 --> 0:13:06.556
<v Speaker 1>of key thing the defense keeps saying about all these

0:13:06.596 --> 0:13:10.596
<v Speaker 1>other senior executives who pleaded guilty and don't want to

0:13:10.596 --> 0:13:12.276
<v Speaker 1>go to prison, basically right.

0:13:12.756 --> 0:13:14.756
<v Speaker 3>Exactly, and it lines up with the role of the

0:13:14.796 --> 0:13:16.676
<v Speaker 3>defense and what the defense has been doing in this

0:13:16.756 --> 0:13:19.756
<v Speaker 3>case on cross which is really just casting doubts or

0:13:19.796 --> 0:13:23.516
<v Speaker 3>poking little holes in what the witnesses are saying, which

0:13:23.556 --> 0:13:25.596
<v Speaker 3>makes sense because at the end of the day, the

0:13:25.676 --> 0:13:28.396
<v Speaker 3>jury has to decide that Sam is guilty beyond a

0:13:28.396 --> 0:13:30.996
<v Speaker 3>reasonable doubt, So they're just pointing out why one might

0:13:31.076 --> 0:13:33.316
<v Speaker 3>have a reasonable doubt about what these witnesses are saying.

0:13:34.276 --> 0:13:38.396
<v Speaker 1>So, okay, lydia Jeen, you've been going to court all day,

0:13:38.516 --> 0:13:42.396
<v Speaker 1>every day for three weeks. You've seen every minute of

0:13:42.436 --> 0:13:47.356
<v Speaker 1>the trial. The prosecution is basically done. What do you

0:13:47.396 --> 0:13:47.876
<v Speaker 1>make of things?

0:13:47.916 --> 0:13:52.316
<v Speaker 3>At this point, I think that the prosecution has done

0:13:52.356 --> 0:13:56.236
<v Speaker 3>a really good job of giving us a very clear story.

0:13:56.836 --> 0:13:59.556
<v Speaker 3>And I've read that in every trial there's certain themes

0:13:59.556 --> 0:14:02.876
<v Speaker 3>that come up, and on the side for the prosecution,

0:14:03.116 --> 0:14:05.356
<v Speaker 3>the theme is very clear. The theme is that Sam

0:14:05.476 --> 0:14:08.516
<v Speaker 3>is a liar. It's that Sam said that FTX was

0:14:08.516 --> 0:14:11.516
<v Speaker 3>safe for Becusstomers and it actually wasn't. And he lied

0:14:11.556 --> 0:14:13.916
<v Speaker 3>about this over and over and over again. He lied

0:14:13.956 --> 0:14:15.676
<v Speaker 3>about it to the people who are close to him,

0:14:15.836 --> 0:14:17.876
<v Speaker 3>he lied about it to customers, he lied about it

0:14:17.916 --> 0:14:21.796
<v Speaker 3>to investors, and they've just been pounding that home over

0:14:21.836 --> 0:14:25.036
<v Speaker 3>and over and over again. The defense on their cross

0:14:25.636 --> 0:14:28.956
<v Speaker 3>they haven't really told us a story the same way

0:14:29.076 --> 0:14:31.916
<v Speaker 3>about what happened, which of course they don't have to.

0:14:32.156 --> 0:14:33.916
<v Speaker 3>All they have to do is poke holes in the

0:14:33.956 --> 0:14:37.396
<v Speaker 3>story of the prosecution. But I am curious as we

0:14:37.756 --> 0:14:41.076
<v Speaker 3>approach the time for the defense to present their case,

0:14:41.676 --> 0:14:43.356
<v Speaker 3>if they are going to give us a narrative and

0:14:43.436 --> 0:14:46.516
<v Speaker 3>explain from their side what happened and how FTX imploded.

0:14:47.076 --> 0:14:50.276
<v Speaker 1>Well, and from their side, you mean, when Sam takes

0:14:50.316 --> 0:14:54.076
<v Speaker 1>the stand right, the big dramatic conclusion to this to this.

0:14:54.116 --> 0:14:56.916
<v Speaker 3>Trial exactly, and when Michael Lewis comes in when we

0:14:56.956 --> 0:14:58.676
<v Speaker 3>get to go to court together, which I can't wait for.

0:14:59.836 --> 0:15:01.996
<v Speaker 1>Levision cop. For one last thing, let's talk about Twitter.

0:15:02.516 --> 0:15:05.036
<v Speaker 3>Twitter has been coming up a lot in this trial.

0:15:05.196 --> 0:15:07.436
<v Speaker 3>We've been seeing lots of tweets from say Magmond Freed.

0:15:07.956 --> 0:15:11.236
<v Speaker 3>It kind of is a great reminder about why it's

0:15:11.396 --> 0:15:12.636
<v Speaker 3>not good to tweet through it.

0:15:12.836 --> 0:15:15.996
<v Speaker 1>Never tweet the story.

0:15:15.276 --> 0:15:19.036
<v Speaker 3>Exactly, especially if you're potentially being accused of a massive fraud.

0:15:19.356 --> 0:15:22.996
<v Speaker 1>Whatever you tweet, never tweet. All customer accounts are segregated.

0:15:23.556 --> 0:15:24.756
<v Speaker 1>One thing, never to tweet.

0:15:25.276 --> 0:15:28.316
<v Speaker 3>Do not say FTX is fine, assets are fine. The

0:15:28.396 --> 0:15:30.716
<v Speaker 3>other day there was an SD and Y investigator. He

0:15:30.876 --> 0:15:34.196
<v Speaker 3>was kind of like a Twitter expert who showed us

0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:37.236
<v Speaker 3>how Twitter works, what retweets are, what gms are. He

0:15:37.316 --> 0:15:40.396
<v Speaker 3>showed us a whole ton of tweets from Sam mcmanfreed,

0:15:40.436 --> 0:15:42.236
<v Speaker 3>and they all came up on the screen so fast

0:15:42.276 --> 0:15:45.236
<v Speaker 3>it honestly felt like a clockwork orange you know when

0:15:45.236 --> 0:15:49.436
<v Speaker 3>you're limoly are your eyes open exactly like you couldn't

0:15:49.476 --> 0:15:51.836
<v Speaker 3>read them, but you just got this sense, this overwhelming

0:15:51.876 --> 0:15:55.596
<v Speaker 3>sense of to the prosecution's point of Sam tweeting things

0:15:55.636 --> 0:15:59.156
<v Speaker 3>that aren't true. But there was one particular moment that

0:15:59.196 --> 0:16:02.556
<v Speaker 3>stood out, which is when we were shown private messages

0:16:02.756 --> 0:16:06.276
<v Speaker 3>dms between Sam Maikmanfreed and a reporter at Vox named

0:16:06.316 --> 0:16:06.996
<v Speaker 3>Kelsey Piper.

0:16:07.516 --> 0:16:11.076
<v Speaker 1>This reporter, Kelsey Piper, actually publish these dms on box

0:16:11.076 --> 0:16:13.716
<v Speaker 1>when it happened right, This was like big news last November,

0:16:13.876 --> 0:16:15.476
<v Speaker 1>like right when FTX was blowing up.

0:16:15.476 --> 0:16:18.036
<v Speaker 3>This happened exactly, and I think I had a big

0:16:18.116 --> 0:16:20.876
<v Speaker 3>influence on how people thought about Sam agmn Freed, which

0:16:20.916 --> 0:16:24.356
<v Speaker 3>is why the lawyers put up a strenuous objection to

0:16:24.436 --> 0:16:26.436
<v Speaker 3>have these dms not be shown. But in the end

0:16:26.476 --> 0:16:27.796
<v Speaker 3>the judge ruled that they could be.

0:16:28.516 --> 0:16:30.676
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Lidia, to tell you what we're basically done, I'm

0:16:30.676 --> 0:16:32.436
<v Speaker 1>going to get out of here, say goabye, But why

0:16:32.436 --> 0:16:33.996
<v Speaker 1>don't you just play us out with some of the

0:16:33.996 --> 0:16:35.716
<v Speaker 1>greatest hits from those dms.

0:16:37.756 --> 0:16:40.876
<v Speaker 3>Kelsey Piper. I was just re listening to that conversation

0:16:40.956 --> 0:16:42.756
<v Speaker 3>we had this summer about whether you should do an

0:16:42.796 --> 0:16:45.996
<v Speaker 3>ethical shit for the greater good sam Agmin Freed. What

0:16:46.076 --> 0:16:50.236
<v Speaker 3>did I say, Kelsey Piper? You were like, Nah, don't

0:16:50.276 --> 0:16:53.076
<v Speaker 3>do an ethical shit, Like if you're running Philip Morris,

0:16:53.116 --> 0:16:55.156
<v Speaker 3>no one's going to want to work with you on philanthropy.

0:16:55.716 --> 0:17:00.516
<v Speaker 3>Sam Mankman Freed. Heh Kelsey Piper, And there's a risk

0:17:00.556 --> 0:17:02.596
<v Speaker 3>of doing more harm than good. But even if you

0:17:02.596 --> 0:17:06.716
<v Speaker 3>subtract that out, pretty not worth it. Sam Mankman Freed, Yeah,

0:17:07.556 --> 0:17:10.076
<v Speaker 3>Kelsey Piper. I was trying to figure out, like if

0:17:10.116 --> 0:17:12.396
<v Speaker 3>that was kind of the pr off the cuff answer.

0:17:13.156 --> 0:17:16.756
<v Speaker 3>Sam Megman Freed, Man all the dumb shit, I said,

0:17:17.036 --> 0:17:21.556
<v Speaker 3>It's not true, not really, Kelsey Piper. Yeah, I thought

0:17:21.596 --> 0:17:26.036
<v Speaker 3>it might not be. Sam Megmanfreed. Everyone goes around pretending

0:17:26.036 --> 0:17:29.876
<v Speaker 3>that perception reflects reality. It doesn't. Some of this decade's

0:17:29.916 --> 0:17:32.276
<v Speaker 3>greatest heroes will never be known, and some of the

0:17:32.316 --> 0:17:35.036
<v Speaker 3>most beloved people are basically shams.

0:17:38.716 --> 0:17:41.676
<v Speaker 2>This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Jacob Goldstein.

0:17:45.796 --> 0:17:49.116
<v Speaker 2>Lydia Jencott is our court reporter. Katherine Girardeau and Nisha

0:17:49.196 --> 0:17:53.076
<v Speaker 2>Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our

0:17:53.156 --> 0:17:56.516
<v Speaker 2>music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of

0:17:56.556 --> 0:18:00.996
<v Speaker 2>stell Wagon's Symphinette. Judging Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries.

0:18:01.436 --> 0:18:03.916
<v Speaker 2>Got a Question or Comment for Me is a website

0:18:03.916 --> 0:18:11.596
<v Speaker 2>for that atrpodcast dot com. That's ATR podcast. To find

0:18:11.636 --> 0:18:15.516
<v Speaker 2>more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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<v Speaker 2>or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you'd like

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