1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Be Weary. Two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account, 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes. 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: in terrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: riveting new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: seven sixth Central and nine eight Central on Oxygen, the 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: new network for crime Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on 8 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: Sirius x Him Triumph Channel one thirty two. Notorious Susan Smith, 9 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 1: the woman who drowned her two little boys. She's been 10 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: no angel in prison. Life hasn't been easy for Susan Slift. 11 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: Behind bars, she's been disciplined for having had sex with 12 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: two different Corrections officers. The guards both lost their jobs. Smith, 13 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: now forty six, looks much different today than when the 14 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: world Old king to Nowhere twenty three years ago, when 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: she claimed she'd been carjacked with her two boys still 16 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: in the vehicle. Whoever pass my children, that they please 17 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: please bring him home. She later confessed to rolling the 18 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: car into a lake with the boys still strapped in 19 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: their car seats. In this letter, Susan Smith wrote, I 20 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: am not the monster society thinks I am. I want 21 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: to say to him, my baby, your mama loves you 22 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: so much, and your daby, This whole families loves you 23 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: so much. And you guys got a bistrow. That was 24 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: Susan Smith begging for the return of her children. Her 25 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: two little boys, Michael three alex Is fourteen months according 26 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: to her, stolen by a man basically a card shacker, 27 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: and she was desperate. That was a public play for 28 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: their return. It was only learned later that Susan Smith, 29 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: the mother, has strapped her two little children into the 30 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,279 Speaker 1: family car and rolled it into a lake as they 31 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: screamed for their mother. She stood at the dock and 32 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: saw the car go underwater as she heard her boys screams. 33 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: Just three years old and fourteen months disappear, and now 34 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: child killer Susan Smith makes the headlines again. I Nancy Grace, 35 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: this is crime stories. Thank you for being with us. 36 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: It just never ends with this woman joining me from 37 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: People magazine. Steve Helling, Steve Helen, thank you for being 38 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: with us. I read your article. It was awesome. Let's 39 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: talk about Susan Smith. A life of sex drugs in 40 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: fractions STDs, one thing after the next. What's happening? How 41 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: can all this go down behind bob? I don't know, Nancy, 42 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: but I can tell you that it is going on 43 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: behind bars, and she's getting in trouble again and again 44 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: and again. And it's everything from possession and use of 45 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: narcotics or marijuana to um, you know, cutting herself to okay, 46 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: wait right right there, Hold on just a moment. You know, 47 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: when I would visit the jail to speak to witnesses 48 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: or find witnesses, they practically strip searched me. I had 49 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: to hand over every single thing, take off my jewelry, 50 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: take off my shoes. But that's when I still I 51 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: was carrying a briefcase everywhere. Open up my briefcase, said, 52 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: sort through it. I was an assistant district attorney for 53 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: Pete's sake, exactly. How and the hey is she getting 54 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: marijuana behind bars? Hey? She got something else behind bars? 55 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: Essentially transmitted disease STD. She didn't have that going in. 56 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: Isn't it true Steve Helling that not one but two 57 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: prison guards have been sentenced to a crime for sex 58 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: with Susan Smith, the child killer boy. That's sexy. True, 59 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: But to them, what's wrong with man? Alan Duke? You 60 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: know a woman is a two time killer, a child killer, 61 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: but they still want to have sex with her. Are 62 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: they crazy? Yeah? We think sometimes with other parts of 63 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: our body. It makes no sense. I ask you, never mind, 64 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: go hell go asked it. I'm sure your wife is 65 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: happy to hear that. Steve Helen. Can I get back 66 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: to you with me? Steve Helling? People Magazine? Who takes 67 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: a lid off the life Susan Smith is leaving behind ours? 68 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: I mean, isn't it true, Steve Helling? Cheef? I feel 69 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: like I've got you on a chair across exam. I'm 70 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: just having a field day. Isn't it true, Steve Helling 71 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: that the staff at the c I Correctional Institute have 72 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: been warned do not let a man alone in the 73 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: room with Susan Smith like she's a wild tiger. I mean, 74 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: you can't. They've been told she can't be alone with 75 00:04:55,440 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: a man in a room because they see that you know, 76 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: she's a risk. She will apparently have sex with clearly anybody, 77 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: and she's doing it behind bars. And it's a crime 78 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: when these when these guys have sex with her I 79 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: mean they've spent they've done jail time because of it, 80 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, as they should. She has sex with prison guards, 81 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: including Houston Kegel, who was later jail for three months 82 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: for the affair, and a prison captain, Alfred Rowe, who 83 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: got probation it was discovered she had sex relations with 84 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: Kegel after Smith tests positive for an STD. I mean, 85 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: aren't their cameras everywhere? Well, I mean didn't you see 86 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: l Chapoh, he saw him almost to the last minute 87 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: when he seemingly disappeared into his commode. But how's this 88 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: happening and nobody's catching it? Well, you know, these these guards, 89 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: they know where they can be and where they can't be. 90 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,799 Speaker 1: They know where the cameras are, Nancy, they know where 91 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: there's they can have some privacy, and so you know, 92 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: obviously if they find somebody willing and Susan Smith, they 93 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: for whatever reason they have decided to go and do that, 94 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: which you know, I'm not saying that prison guards are 95 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: the ones who are getting her drugs in prison. We 96 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: don't know, we have no idea how she's getting them, 97 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: but you know, one sure way to make sure you're 98 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: getting preferential treatment is to be having sex with the guards, 99 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: and we know she's done it before. Who knows if 100 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: she's doing it again? But is it worth it? Okay, 101 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, guys, the funny story with me 102 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: is Mary Ellen Hopkins Crime Stories investigative reporter Steve Helling 103 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: from People Magazine, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, death sting 104 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, and 105 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: the Duke, Alan Duke joining me from l A. And 106 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: here in the studio, producer Jackie Howard. Hold on, guys, 107 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:40,559 Speaker 1: just about I've got to tell you a funny story, 108 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: all right. So um, I tried all my cases so 109 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: low set from my investigator Earnest. But on one case, 110 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: a very good friend of mine in the courthouse in 111 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: the d a's office, Herman Sloan, who is now a judge, 112 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: and I love him then and I love him now, 113 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: And he was one of the very few people that 114 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: I really if he said it, I believed it, so 115 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: I could ask him a question if I needed to, 116 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: and I would, you know, be pretty sure he knew 117 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: the answer. So we were in court, I was trying 118 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: a case and Herman was there as an expert for 119 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: some reason. He was sitting beside me at council table. 120 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: The trial was ongoing, and somebody had a newspaper and 121 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: it was sitting there and I saw it and looked 122 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: at the picture. I'm like, herman, where were you when 123 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: these children went missing? Because she gives this composite picture, 124 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: and the picture looked just like Herman Sloane, it looked 125 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: just like my trial partner, who was now a judge. 126 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: He looked at it and just died laughing. So she 127 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: rolls her children and strapped in a car seat, into 128 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: the water, and then she blames an unknown black man. Okay, 129 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: for herman was Santas and herman, do you know this guy? 130 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: And he looked data and we both just died laughing. 131 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: I mean, then when at first when she gave the 132 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: public police steve for a second, it was convincing. But 133 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: when her story came out that at I guess it 134 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: was at a red light or a stop sign, basically 135 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere. And I can say the 136 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: middle of nowhere because I grew up in the middle 137 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: of nowhere. We were not even in a city where 138 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: we were in unincorporated bib County, outside of making Georgia 139 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: with nothing but you can see nothing but soybeans and 140 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: pine trees out there. At a stop sign, an unknown 141 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: man rushes up to her car, car jacks with the 142 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: children inside, and makes off in the cars, never seen 143 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: again anywhere. It's just such a load of bs. That's 144 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: a technical legal term, Steve Helen. Well, you know, and 145 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: the thing that was crazy about that is that the 146 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: way she described it couldn't possibly have happened based on 147 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: the red light cycles and that type of thing. So 148 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: not only was the story wait, tell me that, tell 149 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: me that. Tell me that she said she was stopped 150 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: at a red light, and that while she was stopped 151 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 1: at that red light, this man comes and and you know, 152 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: kidnaps her kids. The problem is, you can't be stopped 153 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: at that right That light only turned red if there 154 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: was traffic coming the other way, and there wasn't traffic 155 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: coming the other way, so she had a green light 156 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: there if she was even there in the first place. 157 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: And once cops realized that, they thought, well, none of 158 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: this story. It didn't make sense in the first place, 159 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: and now we can prove it. Steve Halling, Now I 160 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: know that you're of this fancy people magazine rider. But 161 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: you know, I'm just applying an all trial lawyer. Could 162 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: you explain that one more time about the red light? Sure, 163 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: and you may be able to use this in the 164 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: future to you know, figure out if I can run 165 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: a grain or yellow light. You're telling me the light 166 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: didn't turn red unless cars were coming the other way. Well, 167 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: you know these lights, you know, traffic lights often have 168 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: sensors that they stay green unless there's some reason for 169 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: them to turn red. And so in order for that 170 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: light to have turned red, there had to be cross 171 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: traffic coming the other way at the intersection, and there 172 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: wasn't She said that. No, there, you know, there was 173 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: nobody around, There were no witnesses. Nobody could see it. 174 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: Um And if she had been at a red light, 175 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: by definition, there would be traffic coming the other way 176 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: and they would have seen this alleged kidnapping with this 177 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: alleged black man who stole her kids, and nobody saw 178 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: it because quite frankly, it never happened. Well, I've said 179 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:20,439 Speaker 1: it before and I'll say it against Steve Hill, and 180 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: you're brilliant, okay, Joseph Scott Morgan death saying investigator Joe Scott, 181 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: you heard all that. Now, I know your mind is 182 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: just firing on all cylinders and a hundred miles a minute. 183 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: At the time, when she was crying and I was 184 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: looking at her, there was something not right. Remember the 185 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: husband was just standing there and I couldn't put my 186 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: finger on it, but I believed her. And then when 187 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: her full story came at right, then I remember looking 188 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 1: at my child partner again and saying, I just want 189 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: to know her, and I'm on your side. I think 190 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: you're totally innocent, okay, because I think she's she's lying. 191 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: She's totally lying about this. The whole story right does 192 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: not make sense. So just Scott, let's talk about the 193 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: discovery of the little boys bodies. I've been joking around 194 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: about my trial partner and and being a judge now, 195 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: but what this is really about. Although Susan Smith is 196 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: living it up behind bars, having sex and love letters 197 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: and emails, and this is about three year old Michael 198 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: in fourteen month old Alex, let's talk about the discovery 199 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: of the body with this is the case is really about? 200 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: To hey with her? I want to tell absolutely, after 201 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: she had led led lad all of the investigators and 202 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: not just the the investigators, Nancy, the general public on 203 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: this wild goose chase. You remember this, you know, it's 204 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: just day after day after day of you know, uh, 205 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: just carrying on on the news. She had the infamous 206 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: news conference, Please bring my babies back, all this sort 207 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: of thing. Everybody's out beating the bushes searching for these kids. Well, 208 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: the cops got onto this and they realized that somewhat right. 209 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 1: It turns out, they found these poor little babies strapped 210 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: in their car seats almost sixty ft away from the 211 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: edge of the boat ramp out in the middle of 212 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: the lake, totally submerged and they had no way to 213 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: escape as their mother placed her car in gear and 214 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: allowed that car to go down the ramp, and you 215 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: could hear these babies screaming as they were restrained in 216 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: the back seat. Can you imagine this, Mama, Mama, come 217 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: and help me, Come and help me. And how she 218 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: could stand on the shore and listen to this is 219 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: just absolutely beyond the pail. Let's talk a little bit 220 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: about what they went through for the moment, those moments 221 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: of terror. They sat there strapped in those seats, cars 222 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: filling up with water, windows are down, and suddenly they 223 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: had this this presence of mind to understand that Mom 224 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: is not gonna come to save us. Their little lungs 225 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 1: are filling up with water and they sit there strapping 226 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: these seats and they essentially drowned. It's a horrible way 227 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: to die, and to die completely hopeless, devoid of hope 228 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 1: that your mother, who is supposed to be taking care 229 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: of you, is ever going to come and save you. 230 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: And that's the terror that's lost in all of this. 231 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: Uh you know it, You know all of this stuff 232 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: that that she's engaged in. It. She still has this 233 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: freedom even within the constraints of the correctional facility. And 234 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: to make it worse, the correctional facility personnel have been 235 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: facilitating some of this behavior. I want to go back 236 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: to the murder of the little boys. I'm tired of 237 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: thinking about Susan Smith getting it on with prison guards. 238 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: I want to go back to the little boys. I 239 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: was just thinking about this morning when I took the 240 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: children to school, and when I drove off, I always 241 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: had in my mind. Karen Hormon, you all are familiar 242 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: with the little boy that seemingly disappeared after his stepmother 243 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: dropped him off and he went into the school fair 244 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: science fair. I always wait. They don't know it, of course, 245 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: I don't want them to know Mommy's a stalker. But 246 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: I always wait and look in the rear VI mirror 247 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: and hold up traffic until I see them walk in. 248 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: I wonder if she still thinks about them, you know, 249 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: Mary Ellen Hopkins, investigative reporter. We know the motive. We 250 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: know why she murdered her two little boys, aged three 251 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: and four months. What was the motive, Mary Ellen? Susan 252 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: Smith was in her twenties and she was secretly dating 253 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: a man who didn't want children. Her decision was to 254 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: kill her two little boys. And like you said, this 255 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: whole story it was heartrenching at the time. She took 256 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: us through so many levels of emotions with her crying 257 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: and her stories and her on camera interviews. But it's 258 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: really all about these two sweet, innocent souls who lost 259 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: their life because Mommy that to date someone who didn't 260 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: like children. I'm going to listen one more time to 261 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: Susan Smith begging for the return of her children. Hey, 262 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: I mean, they've got people everywhere looking for him, and mean, 263 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: you know you can hear the helicopters are there and um, 264 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: but they haven't seen anything, and it's just it's crazy 265 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: and it's man since nine o'clock last night, you know. 266 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: And and I really thought that when it got they 267 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: like they would find them. This in the hearty but 268 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: I M done. Was just praying and just keeping my 269 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: faith that they're gonna be okay. But what did Susan 270 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: Smith's husband think at the time? Did he have any 271 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: idea his wife was dating one of the richest guys 272 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: in town son? Did he even know? Did he suspect? 273 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: I remember looking at him during all the press conferences 274 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: and the press and the media frenzy as it unfolded 275 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: during the search for the two little boys, and wondering 276 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: what was going through his mind. When you run your 277 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: own business, you know, time equals money. That's not just 278 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: an old saying, it's true. So why waste your valuable 279 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: time dealing with issues legal zoom can help with? 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Instead, you can count 289 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: on upfront pricing and clarity. So invest your time and 290 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: money and growing your business. Let legal Zoom help with 291 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: the legal stuff. For special savings, be sure to enter 292 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: promo code Nancy in a nc I in the referral 293 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: box at check out for special savings only at legal 294 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: zoom dot com legal zoom dot com. Now, as promised, 295 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: let's take a listen to what Susan Smith's husband said 296 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 1: at the time. So you realized in one fell swoop 297 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: that they have been killed, and Susan Smith, your wife, 298 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: I've done the deed at once, just like that that? 299 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: What did you do? Gave up? Gave up? I ran first. 300 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: I just wanted to run, and I ran. You ran 301 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: where shout? And he are? You ran out the door. 302 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: I had to go. I just had to go. Where'd 303 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: your run to? I don't know. I just ran. I 304 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: don't remember your street clothes. I just had to go. 305 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: I just had to run. Did you go to the jail. No. No, 306 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: When did you see her again? It was about a 307 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: month later after she had been arrested. What did she say, David? 308 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: She said she was sorry and we I mean most 309 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: that's what we talked about, was Michael and Alex. I 310 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: mean I did ask her why she did it? But 311 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: and what did she say? She didn't know? When you 312 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: look back, David, do you blame yourself? Do you think 313 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: there were indicators or red flags you should have seen 314 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 1: but didn't. No, I don't blame myself. I mean, Susan, 315 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: you know, she was confident. She was, you know, in 316 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: sound minds, and it seems seemed to be Yeah. I mean, 317 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: you know, in some ways, a lot of people want 318 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: to say she she had to be crazy, and I 319 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: think I want they say that figuratively speaking, but not legally. 320 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: But not legally she was, you know, just recently out 321 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: to Alan? Do you joining me out of l A. 322 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: Susan Smith writes a letter in which she says, I'm 323 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: not a monster news flash, Yes you are. What else 324 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: did her let her say? Alan? It was a short 325 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: handwritten prison letter to a reporter in South Carolina, the 326 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: state newspaper. She She says, Not only is she not 327 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: a monster, she says, it's frustrating to say the least. 328 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: I am not a monster of the society thinks I am. 329 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: I'm far from it. Something went very wrong that night. 330 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: I was not myself. I was a good mother and 331 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: I love my boys. The thing that hurts me the 332 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: most is that people think I hurt my children in 333 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: order to be with a man. That is so far 334 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: from the truth. There was no motive, as it was 335 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 1: not even a planned event. I was not in my 336 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: right mind. So what hurts her the most is that 337 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: people think she did it for a love of hair, 338 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: a sex of heir. So what people think of her 339 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: is what hurts her the most. Okay, Steve Helling, People 340 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: Magazine investigative reporter, let's weigh in who is Susan Smith? 341 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: Who is she? Because I think she some monster? Well, 342 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, if you listen to what the warden says, 343 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: you know he said, she's just never been able to 344 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: turn the corner and become a productive member of society. 345 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: And there are people in jail who make a complete 346 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: one eight and change their lives, and we all know 347 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: of stories like that, and unfortunately, Susan Smith seemed to 348 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,959 Speaker 1: be one of them. You know, from all things that 349 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: she's doing, he hasn't shown any signs of rehabilitation. Okay, 350 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: hold on, let me understand this. So there are multiple 351 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: sex affairs with prison guards. They have been criminally prosecuted 352 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: for that. There's even a ban on mail guards being 353 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: alone with her, which I think there should be. I 354 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: actually don't know that. I believe there should beat male 355 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: guards and a women's cee I, but that's a whole 356 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: another can of worms. But there is a ce I 357 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: Correctional Institute ban on Susan Smith being alone with a 358 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: man in the entire facility. All right. I know she 359 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: does behind bars whatever she can get her mits on, 360 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: including uh peel's and marijuana. And I really don't know 361 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: what else I know of those two. I know in 362 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: her mind, Joseph Scott Morgan that she believes she is 363 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: somehow the one that's been wronged, uh slandered and libeled 364 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,239 Speaker 1: because people believe her motive for double murder of her 365 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: babies was to get this rich kid's son to marry her, 366 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: which I still believe to this day. Joe Scott Well, 367 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: I contend that there is a daddy out there who 368 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: is absent too, precious little babies that would probably beg 369 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: to differ on that topic. Don't you believe I think 370 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 1: that somebody else was done wrong? Uh, the world was 371 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: robbed of these two little lives, and she still got 372 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: her life, doesn't she. And she can be involved in 373 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: any kind of debauchery she chooses to be in. In 374 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 1: the correctional facility that she's in, these kids will never 375 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: have a shot. Father will never have an opportunity to 376 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: take care of those kids, has never had an opportunity 377 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: to take care of those kids. Grandparents have never been 378 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: with him. Um, and you know, and and and and 379 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: not just that, Let's let's look at a bigger, bigger 380 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: idea here. She tried to pin this on some random 381 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: African American male. She tried to say that this guy 382 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: that had carjacked her was a blackmail and it led 383 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: to outrage in the African American community and outrage on 384 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: my part as well, because of all the people she 385 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: could name, she blames an unknown African American male. You're 386 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: absolutely right, and it just you know, and it stirs 387 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: the pot in that community, so that scar is left 388 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: and all because of her, her just her, you know, 389 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: I don't mean humorous. I don't know. I don't want 390 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: to use the word selfishness because it goes, it goes 391 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: beyond that. With this person. It's it's the single most 392 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: uh just self centered act that anyone could possibly commit. 393 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: Into my way of thinking, because at the time I 394 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: was working still as an investigator with the medical Examiner 395 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, and we watched this case and it just 396 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: gave me a bad feeling from the beginning relative to 397 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: what she was saying, how she was reacting, and then 398 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: when it came out, I knew what the implications would be, 399 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: particularly with her fingering, uh, someone else in the community 400 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: like this, and how she had led everyone astray in 401 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: this It's just absolutely hardbak. I'm interested in what she wrote. 402 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: Steve Helling joined me from People magazine, quote, something went 403 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: very wrong that night. I was not myself. But what 404 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: is that supposed to mean? Because I guarantee you, Steve Helling, 405 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: if there had been any remote chance at a mental 406 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: defect defense, they would have done it. I mean, it 407 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: would have worked, right, you know? That to me is 408 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: just a cliche that people say, oh, I wasn't myself 409 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: when I did something horrible. Well, yeah, yeah, you were. 410 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: You were yourself when you did it, and this might 411 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: be a part of yourself you don't like to think about. 412 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: But you know, like you said, if there had been 413 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: a mental defect, if there had been an insanity defense, 414 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: we would have seen that and they never would have worked. 415 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: It would have worked if that, if that had been 416 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: for real, her story quickly fell apart and became unraveled. 417 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: And there was no African American man at the red 418 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: the red light. Okay, that didn't happen. Um, Steve Helling 419 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: is explained to you exactly why we know that that's 420 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: not true. That's not how that particular red light worked. 421 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: It was on a sensor. If a car or movement 422 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: was coming the other way, it would turn red. That 423 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: didn't happen. It was all a big lie. And now 424 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: she's living it up at Least Correctional Institute in Greenwood, 425 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:53,160 Speaker 1: South Carolina, drugs, sex, alleged self mutilation. I just keep 426 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: looking back at the picture of the little boys, Alan Duke. 427 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: Isn't it true? In the letter, she claims she was 428 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: really trying to kill herself, but whoop. See, somehow she 429 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 1: managed to murder her two boys instead, and then lie 430 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: about it. Well, yes, she does say that she planned suicide. 431 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 1: She knew the truth would come out, she said, so 432 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: she lied because she didn't want to face the world 433 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: about what had really happened. I planned to kill myself 434 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: first and then lead a note telling what happened. I 435 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: don't believe I could face my family when the truth 436 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: was revealed. You know, she is coming up for parole, 437 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: believe it or not, in just a few years. She 438 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: is coming up for parole. Think of all the lives 439 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: that she has ruined. She's ruined of course, her children's life, 440 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: her husband's life, probably that guy she was dating his life, 441 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: all of her relatives and family, the men that had 442 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: sex relationships with her behind bars now have convictions. I 443 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: don't know if you have any future in law enforcement 444 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: with a conviction of that sort, especially under your belt. 445 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: And this lie Steve Helling People Magazine, that she planned 446 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: to kill herself first and leave a note. How was 447 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: that supposed to work out? Kill herself first when the 448 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: first thing she did was murder her children. She never 449 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: even tried to kill herself. That's the thing about Susan Smith. 450 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: Her stories never make a lot of sense. And you know, 451 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: the bottom line is she had an estranged husband at 452 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: the time who would have been more than happy to 453 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: take care of these kids while she went off and 454 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: was with this other guy that you know, she could 455 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: have been the bad guy, but not a murderer. But 456 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: she chose not to do that. And so you know 457 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,719 Speaker 1: her saying I wanted to kill myself. It doesn't make 458 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: any sense. It will never make any sense. Well, another 459 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: thing she said to Mary Ellen Hopkins, investigative reporter. She 460 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: also says she made up the lie about the unknown 461 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: man at the red lie in the car Jackie to 462 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: quote protect the boys loved ones, not to shield herself. 463 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: What that doesn't even make sense, Maryelle. Now it doesn't. 464 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 1: And that's the whole thing with this whole story. It's 465 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: always about her. She killed her two little boys, but 466 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: it's all about her. She's the one who's suffering. People 467 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: don't understand her. They you know, she was a good mother, 468 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: she loved them. So it's never and it's never about them. 469 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: It's always about her. She is always the victim. I 470 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: believe they call that a narcissist who thinks only of themselves, 471 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: after the myth of narcissus who fell in love with 472 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: his own reflection in the water. Um. We also have 473 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 1: learned Steve Helen that she has pin pals and they 474 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: send her thousands of dollars behind bars. What about that, 475 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: Steve Hell Well, you know what, look at her recent 476 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: mugshot and look at the glamour that she has. I mean, 477 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: she's wearing makeup, her hair. It looks terrific. She looks 478 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: way better than she looked in the nineties because she's 479 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: living a pretty good life behind bars. If you look 480 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: at all the things that she's doing, she's doing stuff 481 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: that you know, the rest of us don't do. So 482 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: I think that it's interesting to see her transformation and 483 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: watch her become this hardened criminal. Now. I don't know 484 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: how she can say that the other man, Tom Finley, 485 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: was not the motive, because by almost all accounts, the 486 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: story really starts when she starts dating Tom Finley. They 487 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: have an affair and he actually breaks up. He breaks 488 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: up with her and in a letter he states he 489 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: does not want children. That's on October sevent On October, 490 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: she drowns Michael and Alex. She eases off a leg 491 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: boat access rent, releases the emergency break and then tells 492 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: police she was carjacked by a man who drove off 493 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: with the boys. Then she and her husband infamously appear 494 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: on national TV where she cries and snots and begs 495 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: for the boys return. That's what happened. That's what happened. 496 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: So how can she say now, Joe's of Scott Morgan 497 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: that was not in the motive. It was just a 498 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: couple of days after he says I'm breaking up with you. 499 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: I don't want children that pressto the children are gone. 500 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: She can't. Uh, you know, she's she's trying to crawfish 501 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: on this thing. Uh. And I think that that goes 502 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: back to to your you know, your your earlier comment 503 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: about narcissism. Uh. With with this person, it's all it's 504 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: always going to change to suit her perception of reality. 505 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: And uh, at the at the end of the day, 506 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, the reality is is 507 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: that we have too dead children who were specifically in 508 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: her care during this period of time, in the care 509 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: of the person that in this world, out of all 510 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: the people, it was the one person that was supposed 511 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: to guarantee their safety at all times. And you know, um, 512 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: it just it. The dog doesn't hunt with me if 513 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: you if you catch my meaning, uh, she h all along. 514 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: It seems like she's just kind of happy, actually goes 515 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: along trying to trying to justify her actions. And this 516 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: is continuing on in prison. As world, Steve Helling, it 517 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: won't be long before she is up for parole. Today. 518 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: Her boys would be three, just getting out of college 519 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: and probably going to grad school or starting their first job, 520 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: and young men in the prime of their lives. That 521 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: was not to be Steve Helling, right. And you know, 522 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: the thing is that I was afraid that she would 523 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: when parole comes, that you know, there would be a 524 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: chance of her getting parole, But her actions in jail 525 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: certainly make it look as though that's that's unlikely. And 526 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: I hope that everybody involved realizes that she's exactly where 527 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: she needs to be. Right now, before we go any further, 528 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: Alan do what's the latest on the missing l s 529 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: U student Michael Nikolote. Michael Nikolotte Jr. Disappeared from his 530 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,959 Speaker 1: l s U campus apartment in Baton Rouge, Louisiana on September. 531 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: The Nicolott families concerned the campus police are treating the 532 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: twenty one year old is a voluntary runaway case. But 533 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: they say he would never leave, that he was, as 534 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: they say, straight as an arrow. They fear instead something 535 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: bad has happened to him. Michael was an r OTC student. 536 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: He wanted to be a Marine Corps officer. You can 537 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: read details and see Michael's photo on our crime Online 538 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: dot com website. Anyone with information regarding this missing l 539 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: s U student please call l s U Police too 540 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: to five five seven eight three two three one. This 541 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: boy's family is begging for help. A white Chrysler le 542 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: Baron pulls into the driveway of a South Florida home. 543 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: A clown gets out holding balloons and flowers and marches 544 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: up to the front door. When Marlene war And opens 545 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: the door, pleasantly, surprised, reaches out for the flowers for 546 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: her instead of a beautiful bouquet of roses, she gets 547 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: a bullet to the face and dies. I mean, see, Grace, 548 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. 549 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: That's right, Marline Warren shot in the face by a clown. 550 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: It's almost too bizarre to believe, but that is exactly 551 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: what happened. And now twenty seven years later and arrest 552 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: goes down amazing joining me, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert, 553 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University, Mary Ellen Hopkins 554 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter, and of course Alan Duke joining 555 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: me out of l A. So to Mary Ellen Hopkins, 556 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: investigative reporter, Mary Ellen, thank you for being with us. 557 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: Explained to me this arrest of a woman. A woman 558 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: is allegedly dressed as a clown, a killer clown, complete 559 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: with white face makeup, uh, an orange wig, an entire 560 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: clown outfit. And now, all these years later, a woman, 561 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: Sheila Keene Warren, is arrested for first degree murder and 562 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: the shooting death of Marlene Warren. What happened, well, Nancy, 563 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: it was a love triangle murder. You had a husband, 564 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: a lover, and an ex wife. Sheila Warren, the killer 565 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: shot Marlene Warren, the former wife, in the face at 566 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: her home in an upscale neighborhood in West Palm Beach, Florida. 567 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: You know it's almost too much to take in. Uh, 568 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: this is what we know. Sheila Keene Warren, now fifty 569 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: war years old, arrested on a charge of murder one 570 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,719 Speaker 1: with the use of a firearm and the murder of 571 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: Marlene Warren, the first wife of Michael Warren. Now at 572 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,280 Speaker 1: the front door was a woman with brown eyes, carrying balloons, 573 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: wearing a clown costume with an orange wig. May twenty six, 574 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 1: people saw the white car pull up in the driveway 575 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 1: and the clown get out. The husband, Michael Warren, was 576 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: initially investigated. Friends and families said that you have been 577 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: having marital problems. But now, all these years later, a 578 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: killer clown female arrested for allegedly shooting dead a woman 579 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 1: at her front door carrying flowers and balloons over twenty 580 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: seven years ago. Thousands and thousands of man hours have 581 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,320 Speaker 1: been sunk into the case over the years. Washington County 582 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: Sheriffred Newman says that it was one of the strangest 583 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: cases he had ever seen. I'm looking at shots right now, 584 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan joining me, death investigator and forensics professor. 585 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: I'm looking at Michael Warren with his wife Marlene. At 586 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: the time, they look so happy to gather, but after 587 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: her murder, he seemingly disappears, drops off the map, only 588 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: to re emerge around two thousand and two to marry 589 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: his then mistress. They were having an affair at the 590 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: time his wife is murdered by a clown. It's it's 591 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: amazing how how these these cases will track off and 592 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: these odd, odd directions, and no one seems to pay 593 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 1: attention in the immediate and it takes all of these 594 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: years later for the truth to kind of rise to 595 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: the top in this particular case. Uh and uh, the 596 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: fact that they have resolved this case after this many 597 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: years is amazing. That's the reason they're called cold cases. 598 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: Most of the time, cold cases remain cold cases. You know, 599 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: I'm looking at this picture of them, and I really 600 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: don't understand that. Mary Ellen Hopkins, investigative reporter. They seem 601 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: so happy at the time. What do we know about 602 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: their relationship? Well, there were rumors, Nancy, that the couple 603 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: was having some marital issues, but nothing was ever made 604 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: clear what was going on. There were also rumors that 605 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: Michael Lauren was having an affair with shel Lauren. She 606 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: worked for him at at his business and they would 607 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: take long lunches together. So there was a lot of 608 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: undercurrent they're going on, but nothing that I guess anyone 609 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: could ever pinpoint. Let's go through the facts as we 610 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: know them out to Alan do. Let's analyze what we 611 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: know at the time. What did we learn at the 612 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: time regarding the shooting. It was eleven o'clock in the 613 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: morning in this really nice residential area. It's called the 614 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: Aero Club Community. They've actually got a landing strip instead 615 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: of just to call the second this neighborhood and the 616 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: homes were like million dollar homes. So this clown knocks 617 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: on the door, pulls up in a Chrysler LeBaron that 618 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: doesn't have a license plate, carries a bouquet of flowers 619 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 1: and tuballoons, one of them with snow whites picture on it, 620 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: so it looked like it was a fun gift that 621 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: was coming to the door. But instead when this woman 622 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: opened up the door, that's when she was killed. A 623 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: gun down and there were with us as the teenage 624 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,479 Speaker 1: sons of the victim as well as friends were there 625 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,439 Speaker 1: to see it, and nobody even knew it was why 626 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: are you telling me the sun The teenage the teenage 627 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: kids of the victim were there, That's what I'm saying. 628 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: They saw their mom get killed. I didn't realize that part, yes, 629 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: but they couldn't even tell if this clown was a 630 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: man or a woman. That's how bizarre the clown makeup was. 631 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: It was Memorial Day weekend in the Palm Beach County 632 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: suburb of Wellington when this whole thing goes down and 633 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: immediately a massive investigation started. Um. When I'm looking at 634 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: the woman who has just been arrested all this time later, 635 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: she's actually smiling. She's seemingly laughing in her mug shot. 636 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: I don't get it, josephs got Morgan. You and I've 637 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 1: seen a lot of crimes, but to smile in your 638 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: mug shot when you've just been charged with murder one. 639 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: Maybe she doesn't. Maybe she she's of the opinion that 640 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: that they're not going to be able to pin this 641 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: on her. Of course, uh she apparently likes clowns, so 642 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: maybe she's really happy. I don't know, but it is very, 643 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: very bizarre, and you'll see people that react. You'll see 644 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: people that react to these traumatic, traumatic events like being 645 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: arrested many times, uh with with almost a flippant nature 646 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: about them. I don't know that they know what else 647 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,280 Speaker 1: to do. Well, this is what I know about the husband. 648 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: He has not been named a suspect, but I know 649 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: this about him. In uh a few years before this, 650 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: he was sentenced to prison on forty three counts of 651 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: o'domino tampering, grand theft, racketeering. After digging done by investigations 652 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 1: on the murder, they found foul play and his car 653 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,959 Speaker 1: rental agency. And that's according to Palm Beach Post. So 654 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: this guy is not lily white, his hands aren't totally clean, 655 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: but he has never been roped in on his wife's murder. 656 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: Another thing, Alan, do about the facts. That's where I 657 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 1: always start with the timeline and the facts as you 658 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 1: know them. At the time of the murder, the clown 659 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: calmly turns around and walks back to the car. Yeah, 660 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,240 Speaker 1: this was obviously well thought out and and this killer, 661 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 1: if it was this woman, was very calm, drove the 662 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: car to the airport and left the car there, which 663 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: later it was found at the Palm Beach International Airport Park. 664 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: Sort of to the just that this clown flew out 665 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: of town, but probably didn't. Interesting, So do you believe then, 666 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: Alan Duke, let's analyze the car. So the car is 667 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: left near the airport to give the suggestion the killer 668 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: flew out of two Yes, and it had no license plates. 669 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: It was a Chrysler LeBaron, which basically for me as 670 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 1: a throwaway car. I mean I would leave that one behind. 671 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 1: But um yeah, just no connection to her and the 672 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 1: car that they knew of. And so that was actually 673 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: a pretty well thought out crime. Let me think about that, 674 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 1: the car left at the airport to give the appearance 675 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: the perp flew out of town. The fact that the 676 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,440 Speaker 1: perp walked calmly back to the car after the shooting, 677 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 1: no running, no nothing. This was clearly, in my mind, 678 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 1: a planned out, intentional killing. Well it had to be, 679 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: because you don't walk around in the clown outfit and 680 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 1: full on white clown makeup, the grease paint on your faces. 681 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: Had to be planned to shoot this particular person. There 682 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 1: was no theft, there was no sex attack, there was 683 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: no even not even a break in. This all went 684 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,879 Speaker 1: down right at the front porch. So that leads me 685 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: to today, all these years past, there's never an arrest. 686 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,399 Speaker 1: Can you even imagine how the children feel when their 687 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: mom is murdered and nothing ever comes of it. There's 688 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: never an arrest, There's just a long, long investigation that 689 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: seemingly fizzles. You grow up with your mom gone and 690 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:40,319 Speaker 1: no justice. Until recently. This is what we've learned. Some 691 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:46,839 Speaker 1: type of DNA, a newly developed DNA technique has been 692 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,479 Speaker 1: used that was not available in the nineties when Mom 693 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:55,479 Speaker 1: was murdered. I'm betting it was either nano enhancement, which 694 00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: is a brand new DNA technique, or either Crisper, another 695 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: new DNA technique that was used. I'm wondering also where 696 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: they got the DNA, Joe Scott Morgan. Where did they 697 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: get it? They don't have the murder weapon, so they 698 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: didn't get it off the murder weapon. Was their DNA 699 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: on the flowers? Was there a thorn on a rose? 700 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 1: Was there something on the balloon? Was there something in 701 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: the car? Where did they get the d NA? Joe Scott? 702 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: Because all these years later, they still had the substance 703 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,799 Speaker 1: from which the DNA was derived. But where did it 704 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: come from, Joe Scott? That's a great question, Nancy. And 705 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: this is this, This goes to the competency of the 706 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: investigators at the time that handle the case, because they 707 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 1: were able to preserve whatever this evidence that they had. 708 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: They were able to preserve it after all these years. 709 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: Let's keep in mind that d n A the source 710 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: material for DNA is very very fragile, and the fact 711 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: that they were able to harvest this and then run 712 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: a profile, uh in order to facilitate this, this this 713 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,879 Speaker 1: building of this evidence. We have principle in forensics, that's 714 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,280 Speaker 1: that is stated. It is stated that every contact leaves 715 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 1: a trace. Now, just because we can't find it immediately 716 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,839 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it can't be found found down the road. 717 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,840 Speaker 1: And isn't it interesting that now, in the times in 718 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,399 Speaker 1: which we live, we're finding more and more of these 719 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: cases that are being solved from the distant past. This 720 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,239 Speaker 1: is just one more that we can chalk up. The 721 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: cold case was reopened in two thousand and fourteen when 722 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: new technology allowed prosecutors to retest DNA evidence. As of 723 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 1: right now, as of this moment, it has not been 724 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: revealed from where the DNA came, but we do know this. 725 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: It clearly implicated the husband's mistress at the time, Sheila Keene, 726 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: who years later he marries. She's Sheila Keane Warren, the 727 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: fifty four year old woman taken into custody. What do 728 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 1: you think about this? Mary Ellen Hopkins, Crime Stories investigative reporter, 729 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:11,919 Speaker 1: Do you think they're going to try to get her 730 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: the defendant, Sheila Kane Warren, the so called other woman 731 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,879 Speaker 1: back in the nineties, to turn state's evidence if there 732 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:24,319 Speaker 1: is any against the victim's husband, now her husband. You know, 733 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,960 Speaker 1: the parents had the parents of the victim had always 734 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,239 Speaker 1: suspected that the husband also had some kind of a 735 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: hand in it, especially when they found out years later 736 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,920 Speaker 1: that he married the woman that killed his wife. So 737 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: they think there's a connection there. And a retired sheriffs 738 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 1: detective who spoke with the media so that they tried 739 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 1: so hard to they presented the case over and over 740 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,879 Speaker 1: and every time they came forward that um, they would 741 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: tell them go back and get more. They need more. 742 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:54,919 Speaker 1: So now they have more. They have the d NA 743 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 1: you know what too. I just want to add in. 744 00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 1: I'm looking at the Sun Sentinel, and the questions remained 745 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,480 Speaker 1: why investigators who have gathered a mountain of evidence were 746 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,919 Speaker 1: not able to make an arrest, and among them are 747 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,320 Speaker 1: employees from a store less than a mile from Keene 748 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 1: Warren's home identified her as a woman who bought the 749 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,680 Speaker 1: flowers and balloons about ninety minutes before the killing, and 750 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,759 Speaker 1: if if he's involved, she with that smile on her 751 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: face when she in her muck shot. Maybe she will 752 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: turn evidence on him. Nancy, Let's listen to the police 753 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: press conference after Sheila Warren's arrest in Virginia this week. 754 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: And Abington, Virginia woman has been arrested and charged with 755 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: a twenty seven year old capital murder case that originated 756 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: out of Palm Beach County Tolarna. The Worston County, Virginia 757 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,880 Speaker 1: Sheriff's Office Criminal Investigative Division received information from the Palm 758 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 1: Beach County Sheriff's Office that they had obtained information lead 759 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:54,319 Speaker 1: king Sheila Keene Warren of Abington, Virginia to the homicide 760 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 1: of Marlene Warren and proximately five thirty this afternoon, members 761 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,920 Speaker 1: of the Worceston count Viridge and the Sheriff's Office, along 762 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: with members of the US United States Marshal Service, Palm 763 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 1: Beach County Sheriff's Office, and the Palm Beach State Attorney's Office, 764 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:14,239 Speaker 1: arrested fifty four year old Sheila Keene Warren. She's been 765 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,320 Speaker 1: charged with first degree murder with the firearm of Marlene 766 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,400 Speaker 1: and Warren. She's been transported to the Abington facility of 767 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,279 Speaker 1: the Southwest Virginia Regional Jail in Abington, where she is 768 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:30,680 Speaker 1: awaiting extradition back to Palm Beach County, Florida. The suspect 769 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: of the ARRESTI walked up to the front door with 770 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: the balloons um in her hand. Uh. The deceased victim 771 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: came to the front door and was shot. At that location. 772 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,760 Speaker 1: Guys were standing by because right now I don't think 773 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:53,320 Speaker 1: justice has been served. We now have finally an arrest 774 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:58,280 Speaker 1: in the murder of this mom, this mom, Marlene Warren, 775 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 1: who simply answers front door and is shot in the face. 776 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:06,280 Speaker 1: You know, it brings to mine the Buttafuco case where 777 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 1: she was shot that was by her husband's lover. Remember 778 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,319 Speaker 1: this is ringing a bell to anybody. She lived to 779 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,840 Speaker 1: tell the talk. Yeah, she lived to tell the tale. 780 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,960 Speaker 1: And so called Long Island Lolita. What wasn't that her Alan? 781 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,279 Speaker 1: So this is not the first time that an assassin 782 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 1: has shown up with a gift. Okay, it goes all 783 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 1: the way back to the Trojan force, but in this 784 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 1: case it's flowers and balloons. We still don't know the 785 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,839 Speaker 1: whole story, and that's what I'm waiting on. What I 786 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 1: fear is because this is a cold case and so 787 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: much time has passed, there may not be enough evidence, 788 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,799 Speaker 1: according to prosecutors to take it to trial. I disagree. 789 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:50,480 Speaker 1: I disagree. You can't fight with DNA. We're waiting to 790 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 1: see if any more arrests go down, if anyone else 791 00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,919 Speaker 1: knew about the murder before it occurred. But for now, 792 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,880 Speaker 1: we're waiting for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace Crime Stories, 793 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend. Do you find yourself obsessing over 794 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,120 Speaker 1: unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there was a group of 795 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: people just like you to talk motives and alibis with. 796 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,719 Speaker 1: If so, join the crime Con Cold Case Club and 797 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,960 Speaker 1: work alongside experts and fellow crime sleuths to help uncover 798 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,800 Speaker 1: new leads and theories in the cold cases they adopt. 799 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,920 Speaker 1: Their first cold case focuses on the mysterious disappearance of 800 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,719 Speaker 1: nursing student Maura Murray in two thousand four, and it's 801 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,440 Speaker 1: free to join thanks to Oxygen. Sign up now or 802 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: find more info at Club dot crime con dot com. 803 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,920 Speaker 1: That's club dot crime con dot com.