1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: me Ben. We are joined as always with our super 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: producer Paul Mission controlled decade. Most importantly, you are you. 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: You are here and that makes this the stuff they 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. A storm is rolling in 10 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: on a fair metropolis of Atlanta, Georgia. What better time 11 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: to share some strange stories with you now? Folks, if 12 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: you are a longtime listener to this show, you know 13 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: that we have had UFOs excuse me, pardon me u 14 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: a p S on our mind for quite a while. Now. 15 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: It is an exciting time for skeptics and true believers alike. 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: Throw some cold water on that one, real quick. Uh. 17 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: No official government statements have mentioned extra terrestrials, but it 18 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: seems increasingly clear that world powers believe there is something 19 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: up there in the sky, something that at this point 20 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: cannot be explained. And this inspired us to look back 21 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: through UFO history to search through the various files are 22 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: wish list of episodes we wanted to cover one to 23 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: search for incidents that seemed most likely to be something 24 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: other than the usual explanation, not just in our opinion, 25 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: but in popular consensus. And when you're talking about UFOs, 26 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: when you're talking about things that cannot be explained, you 27 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: need to look to one of the most infamous stories 28 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: in the canon, one that people still argue beggars explanation. 29 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: See I'm using beggars. We need to introduce you to 30 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: a guy named Lonnie Zamora. Sergeant Lonnie Zamora. Who is he? Well, 31 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: here are the facts. He's got an objectively kick ass name. Um, 32 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 1: it's not the name was born with. But either way, 33 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: regardless of you know, whatever name aroses a rose is 34 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: a rose. I guess he is still a dream witness 35 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: for any extraordinary counter You could not cast a better person. 36 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: So maybe we can learn a little bit about him 37 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: and what happened to him. Lonnie Zamora was born on 38 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: September seven, three in Magdalene and New Mexico, United States 39 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: of America. His birth name was Dionnisio E. Zamora uh. 40 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: He was a career law enforcement officer. He was a 41 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: workaday kind of fellow. Um. He you know, owned a 42 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: home like anyone else. Um. And this was all in 43 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 1: his home state there in New Mexico. He had hobbies, 44 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: he had a spouse, all of the usual things that 45 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: go along with with being kind of like a reputable 46 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: member of society. UM. It's also super important to note 47 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: that he did not have any history or um indications 48 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: of being interested in ufology whatsoever. He had no history 49 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: of making wild outlandish claims. If anything, he seemed like 50 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: a super together, thoughtful guy who just kind of wanted 51 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: to go to work and come home and eat his 52 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: dinner and uh and you know, just live life. Yeah. 53 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: And he holds a position of authority as a law 54 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: enforcement officer. Right, this is somebody that you want to 55 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: have a UFO experience because you can. It feels, at 56 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: least on the service if you're hearing the story, like 57 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: you can trust that person. Yeah, this is part of 58 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: the pickle. As we will see, his life was set 59 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: to continue as per normal until he retired and you know, 60 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: passed way peacefully one day. But everything changes for Zamora 61 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: in April one, April afternoon afternoon nineteen The story as 62 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: he recalls. It will give it to you from a 63 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: couple of perspectives. We may jump around a little bit 64 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: in time, but that's a that's a bit of a 65 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: presentation license on our part. So Zamora is chasing a 66 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: speeding car south of a town called Socorro, New Mexico. 67 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: If you are not from the area, if you are 68 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: not interested in UFO phenomenon, you have probably never heard 69 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: of Sekoro, New Mexico. It's it's never going to be 70 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: a town that has a population, uh big enough to 71 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: really hit international news, except for this story. So he's 72 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: chasing this car and it's it's looking like they they're 73 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: gonna get harry any law enforcement. The audience knows what 74 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: we're talking about. All of a sudden, he hears a roar. 75 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: He sees a flame in the sky about a half 76 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: mile or a mile away, a blue orange flame, and 77 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: he sees what appears to be something descending to the earth. 78 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: At first, he later told New Mexico State Police and 79 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: other agencies, UH, due to the closeness of the of 80 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 1: the thing to the to the ground, he thought a 81 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: dynamite check may have exploded. So he let whomever is 82 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: in this speeding car go free. He cut him loose. 83 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: Lucky day for that guy, and instead he traveled toward 84 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: the explosion. A little after PM, a sergeant Zamora calls 85 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: the dispatch for the Skoro Police and he reports a 86 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: possible motor vehicle accident. And he tells dispatch, look, I'm 87 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: gonna go down and I'm gonna check on what I 88 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: think maybe a crash, possible down vehicle. And he sees 89 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: a shiny object about a hundred and fifty maybe two 90 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: hundred yards away. So put yourself in that mindset, two 91 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: football fields away. For most people, that's just far enough 92 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: away to see something like a lens flare or a 93 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: piece of metal if the light hits it right. And 94 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: and and ben. Just quick scenes setting here. It's we 95 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: are in a dry creek bed, or it's as descried 96 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: as Yeah and Royo in the stories. Um so at 97 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: that point, there's not a ton of water rushing through. 98 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: It's it's more of a dry creek bed, maybe a 99 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: little bit of water in a stream. Yeah, great point. 100 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: It's a it's an indentation in the ground, basically, a 101 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: pretty big one, big enough for a car to run 102 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: into trouble. So he thinks he's looking at this thing. 103 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: He's walking towards it, and he's saying, Okay, this looks 104 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: like it's a it's a white vehicle of some sort. 105 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: It's overturned, maybe it's on its radiator, maybe it's on 106 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: its trunk. He gets closer. This doesn't seem to be 107 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 1: the case. As he approaches, he says, well, this is 108 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: not your garden variety Ford. Instead, he observes, it is 109 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: quote like aluminum. It was widdish against the mesa background 110 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: but not chrome. And it was shaped like the letter O. 111 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: What that's perfect weight. Yeah, leave the cat and that's hilarious. Yeah, 112 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: it was like it was like an egg. It was 113 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: smooth as eggs, because you know, it looked kind of 114 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: like an egg. Well, and the weirdest part is that 115 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: this is this is not just an object that some 116 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: more claims to have seen. At one point in this experience, 117 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: this observation, he says that he saw human beings or 118 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: people like things. They looked like humans wearing what did 119 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: he describe it as cover white coveralls, And he even 120 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: went so far as to say they didn't look like people. 121 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: Because he has questioned, there's this call and he specifically 122 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: says they look like people, but he does, you know, 123 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: I mean he's describing them. Again. We've described this guy 124 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: as like a kind of regular fellow. This was something 125 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: that sort of was beyond his experience and his expectations. 126 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: So he was describing it the best he could and 127 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: as straightforward away as possible. Um. But yeah, it was 128 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: some figures, right, white figures. Yeah, yeah, And he has 129 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: a great quote here he's essentially describing them as humanoid. 130 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: He says they were normal in shape. Possibly they was 131 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: small adults or large kids. And and I love that 132 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: because he's like, who are these tremendous children? And so 133 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: he's here, and he's in a very if we can 134 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: all exercise some empathy for the guy here, he's in 135 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: a very strange situation. He's just let someone go for 136 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: breaking the law, right because he thinks there might be 137 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: lives at risk instead of a speeding ticket. And as 138 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: he gets closer, he hears another tremendous roar and he 139 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: and it makes him think there's an explosion. Right, So 140 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: he's trained, he knows the high tail it and as 141 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: he hears this sound, he watches a lou An Orange 142 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: series of flames sprout from beneath this object, propelling it 143 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: up and away into the sky. Now consider the time 144 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: and the time zone, right, so now it's we're getting 145 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: we're getting closer to six pm or so, and it 146 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: is April, which means there's still some daylight, right, so 147 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: he can see this pretty clearly. That's gonna be important later. 148 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: So he's like, he gets out from under his car, 149 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: he dove on a scar and he got yeah, and 150 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: he calls uh. He calls dispatch again right after, and 151 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: the dispatch persons speaking to is an individual named Neip Lopez, 152 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: and he basically says, Nip, can you look out the window? 153 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: I just want to know if you see anything? And 154 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: netflix out the window and Uh basically says, well, what 155 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: am I looking for here, sergeant? And Zamora says, uh, 156 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: it's it's balloon like in shape, because he's looking at 157 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: it himself while he's on dispatch and he's talking. While 158 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 1: he's talking with dispatch about this. Another sergeant for New 159 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: Mexico State Police, UH named Chavez, here's this and goes 160 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: to his location, knows where he's at, and he comes 161 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: up and he's basically saying, what's all the hubbub bub 162 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: and then that's when Zomora describes to Chavez what just happened. 163 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: He's still kind of weirded out by this very extraordinary 164 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: series of events. Chavez walks with him and they find 165 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: burning brush, they find track mark like things or invent patients. 166 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: That's important because it gets exaggerated and the telling of 167 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: the story later as it becomes part of UFO folklore. 168 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: And then more officers arrive and they all see the 169 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: same thing. So these are multiple witnesses who are trained 170 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: to think critically about what they are observing. This is 171 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: the beginnings of what some ufologists consider of the most 172 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: credible sightings in history. And as we've established, whether you 173 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: are a cab or whether you are super back the blue, 174 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: police officers are trained to be observant, and so if 175 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: you are a uphologists, you can't ask for a better witness. 176 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: This guy's colleagues respect him. He's considered well trained, He's 177 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: known to have an eye for detail. He keeps his calm. 178 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: Not not to mention, I mean the training to you know, 179 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: everything that police officers end up touching has to be 180 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: kept to a certain level of rigor in order for 181 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: it to hold up in a courtroom, and a big 182 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: part of that is training as far as what the 183 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,719 Speaker 1: credibility of a witness might be. So to your point, 184 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: but I mean, yeah, this is someone who has the 185 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: training of what a witness, what makes for a credible witness. Um, 186 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: And this is a person that's going to be looking 187 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: for those kinds of things and remembering these kinds of 188 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: things because that's how they're trained to react and to serve. Yes, 189 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: I completely agree, And I want to just stay there 190 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: for a second because I we're all saying the correct 191 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: things here, and we're I think you guys are absolutely right. 192 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: This guy's trained, He's credible. He did just enter into 193 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: a high speed car chase. Right. So, no matter how 194 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: trained you are, your body does certain things with adrenaline, 195 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: and you can use can train your body to respond 196 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: right to those natural things that it does. Um. But 197 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: he just was doing that then he saw something alarming, 198 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: like like as he's in the act of that high 199 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: adrenaline activity, then he goes and see something that is 200 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: out of his experience and kind of weird and freaky, 201 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: and then he uh and watches it fly off into 202 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: the air, which is even more strange. I'm just saying 203 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: that Zamora's adrenaline must have been crazy high throughout that 204 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: entire thing, to the moment that he dives underneath his 205 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: his cruiser as this thing is taking off a that'd 206 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: probably be peak adrenaline right there at that point, right yeah. Uh, 207 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: And and he's he's not shy about it either, which 208 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: is the interesting part. I mean, you know, you you 209 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: talk about a career lawman, you know who, UM, you know, 210 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: it basically stakes their reputation on being credible, UM and 211 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: being you know, considered a safe individual, you know, in 212 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: a small community like this. UM. He's perfectly willing to 213 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: talk about this openly, which I think is really commendable 214 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: and and kind of interesting. And he does so very 215 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: soon after UM on a radio show k s r 216 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: C Radio. We actually have a great transcript of the 217 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: conversation that he has with uh. I believe the DJ 218 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: or the person that's interviewing him as a person named Schrode. 219 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: I'm not sure, Ben. Was this the just like a 220 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: like a talk show like morning drive time type host 221 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: or what interest kind of segment? Yeah, Walter Walter Schrode. 222 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: So we thought we could do just a quick uh, 223 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 1: just quick indication. I guess I'll take these war part, 224 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: since I was already kind of butchering his voice. You 225 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: can hear uh nol as you and that point out 226 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: off air. You can hear the audio of this. But 227 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 1: we thought it would be fun to do a little 228 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: little dramatic retailing. So I know here who wants to 229 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: be shrow. But here we go. Uh. The guy says, 230 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: these are just snippets. Uh says. I went up that 231 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: little road for about half a mile, I guess, came 232 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: up to this little parking area there on the side 233 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: of the road, and I thought i'd glance out of 234 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: the window, looked to my left and seen this white 235 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: object on the ground. I thought it might be a 236 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: car that turned over, crossed over to go out there 237 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: to investigate. Thought maybe somebody might be hurt. At that 238 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: time I saw this white egg like egg shaped looking 239 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: objects in object. Real good to say, Ben, You are 240 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: nailing his dents and calmness, which I think is the 241 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: most important detail here. He's saying it very matter of factly. 242 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: He's not telling a spooky story. He's describing a memory. 243 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: You know what I mean. Again, I hope I'm not 244 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: calling on too strong and like really putting all my 245 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: my conspiracy eggs in this guy's egg basket. Um, but 246 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: I just do believe that this man believes what he saw, 247 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: and Ben, I think he did a great job of 248 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: nailing that tone. So Matty, when you want to do shrode, 249 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: since I'm being mr interjection here that it looked like 250 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: an egg. You mean, yeah, from that distance, it looked 251 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: like an egg to me. About the size of a car, 252 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: I think someone said, yes, sir, it looked like a 253 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: car that turned over. Therefore I would say about the 254 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: size of a car, which is like to your points 255 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: about a matter of fact as you could possibly be. Well, 256 00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: I did say it looked like a car that it 257 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: turned over. Therefore I would say about the size of 258 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: a car, thank you very much. Uh. Yeah, he like 259 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: he talks more about he talks more about the figures 260 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: that he saw nearby. Again, those couple of folks that 261 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: well folk shaped things. I guess we should say, uh, 262 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: let's let's let's go to that, because this just further 263 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: cementure point No. Four. So schrod is smoking. I don't 264 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: know if he actually did. They have helmets on, like 265 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: spacemen or anything. No, sir, I wouldn't say that they 266 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: were people. I just I just saw something whack whack coveralls. 267 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: That's all I can say. But you couldn't identify them 268 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: as actually being an actual human being, like like you 269 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: or I, uh no, no, sir, I could not, which 270 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: is interesting. So pause there. Which is interesting because you 271 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: see what the interviewer is doing here is the interviewer 272 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 1: is taking this guy's literal retelling and kind of putting 273 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: a narrative on it, like so you can't say they're human, 274 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: And he's like, well, I can't say anything. Really, they 275 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: could have been scarecrows. I don't know. But again, the 276 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,360 Speaker 1: thing is, this guy is sticking to his guns, his credibility, 277 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: and people in general believe Zamora. The FBI comes out, 278 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 1: Air Force investigators from Project blue Book come out, They 279 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: visit to get a more in depth account, particularly this 280 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: description of a strange logo on the side of the object, 281 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 1: and eventually this thing, known as the Zamora Incident, goes 282 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: down in history as one of the very few events 283 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: Project Blue Book had to categorize as unknown. So today's question, 284 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: what actually happened? We're gonna pause for a word from 285 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: our sponsor, and then we'll dive in. Here's where it 286 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: gets crazy to this day, and please listen carefully, folks. 287 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: There is no official conclusion. There's also no shortage of theories, 288 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: ranging from secret government testing to forward adversaries, to extra 289 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: terrestrial or even extra dimensional beans, to what explanation we 290 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: might save for the end. But at this point, guys, 291 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: I gotta ask, you know, Matt, what we're What were 292 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: some of your favorite really out there theories you read? 293 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 1: There was one you mentioned all that particularly enjoyed off air. Yeah, 294 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: I was, you know, I was watching a YouTube video 295 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: about this, and it was one of those things that 296 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: I was kind of listening to it and not watching 297 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 1: it while I was doing other stuff and reading other articles. 298 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: And it was very in depth, and you know, talked 299 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: about the set, the scene beautifully the way we've just done, 300 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: had even some clip clips of the interview that we 301 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: just reenacted. And then about halfway through I kind of realized, oh, 302 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: this is a very clear Christian podcast or Christian YouTube channel, 303 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: and they started talking about how there's a war waging 304 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: between the light and the dark and the angels and devils, 305 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: and referring to Satan as like a manipulator of d 306 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 1: n A and a mad scientist and all this stuff, 307 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: and never quite heard it discussed in that light before. 308 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, the idea of Satan, the mad genetic scientists, 309 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: and that these aliens were most definitely the nephelum, which 310 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: we've described, I believe as kind of proto angels on 311 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: earth that were I believe giants, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, 312 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: that's one of the beliefs. Yeah, the sons of God 313 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: and the daughters of Man. That's right. And this was 314 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: this was unequivocally presented as the the solution, hands down, 315 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: and no no shade on anybody's religion, but it's you know, 316 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: it was just it really hit me, got a left field, 317 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: kind of like a ton of bricks, because it went 318 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: from this very kind of unsolved mysteries vibe to like 319 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 1: this hardline biblical interpretation of the whole thing. Yeah, it's 320 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: the cover roles. That's why I gave it away. That's right. Yeah, 321 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: everyone knows that angels um. I'll tell you guys what 322 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: the cover rolls and the egg shaped object made me think. 323 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: And I'll just give you my theory right here. No, 324 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: I think this incident is the inspiration for the entire 325 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 1: Mork and Mindy series. Uh, the character of Mark of 326 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: the organs of the egg, which the egg was a 327 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: primary uh piece in that show. And I believe it 328 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: was the spaceship. I think it was an egg shaped spaceship. Uh. 329 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: I correct me if I'm wrong there. This is what 330 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: I see in my mind. Uh. Guys, I think that's 331 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: what it is. They were testing like they were going 332 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: to do a pilot fourteen years or twelve years before 333 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: Mork and Mindy came out. These theories are going in 334 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: the description of this episode, angels wear cover rolls, Nephelin, 335 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: Nephelin have address code. Uh. Mork and Mindy this was 336 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: their first pilot. So so let's let's think about this. Okay, 337 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: maybe we stay with that, maybe we go with the 338 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: exciting stuff. There are factual things that are really exciting 339 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: and strange about this. Not one, but three separate federal 340 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: agencies ended up investigating the Zamora incident, the Army, the FBI, 341 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: the Air Force, right under the auspice of the Blue 342 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: Book Project, and none of those three could explain what 343 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: might have occurred, even uh, even a guy named Jay 344 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: Alan Heinik who up to that point was a very 345 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: skeptical Blue Book investigator, eventually found himself at a loss 346 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: to explain. This story was too detailed, it was too corroberated, 347 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: it was too credible. You know what. I pause, guys, 348 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: I think maybe we we need to just tell people 349 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: what Project blue Book is if they haven't heard the 350 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: episode yet. This is the ancestor of what happened what 351 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: recently came out with the U A p uh an 352 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: A tip investigation. Right, So if if we could say 353 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: it in just like a couple of phrases, what is 354 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: Project blue Book? I mean, it's essentially like the the 355 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: only government sanctioned UFO investigation program that we really know about. Um. 356 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: You know, it was a collection of reports and data 357 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: surrounding the potential existence of UFOs, specifically as it pertains 358 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: to national security. And then it was abandoned, presumably because 359 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: no one in government thought it had any bearing on 360 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: national security anymore. Yeah, we do have a whole episode 361 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: on this, right, I know we do, because we talked 362 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: about Projects sign which is the predecessor to Blue Book. 363 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: There was grudge also, it was a thing we talked about. 364 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: These are all just attempts by the US government to 365 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: explain unidentified flying object incidents like specific sightings and incidents 366 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: and categorize them. Right, it's a threat assessment basically by 367 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: just looking at each individual thing. Mm hmmm, and it 368 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: has uh yeah, do check out our episode on this. 369 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 1: You just need to know if you are not aware already, 370 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 1: that Uncle Sam and multiple other world governments have been 371 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: investigating allegations of UFOs for a very very long time, 372 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: and they've been doing it with good reason. They've been 373 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: doing it with a rationale behind it. So it's no 374 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: surprise that these folks would check out Zamora's story. But 375 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: they weren't the only ones because you know, as you 376 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: have pointed out all Zamora had no compunction about going 377 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: to the public with this. He was as mystified and 378 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: confused as anybody else. He would love for there to 379 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: be a mundane explanation. So non government actors, private investigators 380 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: got on board with this. Reporters from like the a 381 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,239 Speaker 1: p Issociated Press, United Press International they turned up they 382 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: were on the story, and then early investigation bodies of 383 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: private citizens like APRO, the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, and 384 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: places like NIKECAP which is really missed the opportunity and 385 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: go by kneecap. People just remember it more easily. National 386 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomenon, Uh, let's spend some time 387 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: with those guys. They sent teams to the area. One 388 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: of their investigators, a guy named Ray Stanford, discovered corroborating 389 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: witnesses because remember Chavez and the other members of the 390 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: police force saw burning brush, They saw evidence of burns 391 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: on the ground, but they saw those after the fact. 392 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: This guy, Stanford, uh, seems to have found witnesses who 393 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: were plugged in or or were able to in some 394 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 1: way operate aspects of Zamora's account. And they did it 395 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: before this hit the national news. Yeah, there's one one 396 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,479 Speaker 1: witness I believe. Were they in Albuquerque, but I think 397 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: there in Albuquerque who actually saw whatever this thing was, 398 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: this oval shaped object flying or at least floating in 399 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: some way, traveling let's say, through the air, around five 400 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: thirty pm on the night that Zamora saw this object 401 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, and then there was a let's see 402 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: there there was another example. At five thirty pm, this 403 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: person in Albuquerque calls into the authorities to say, hey, 404 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: I saw an oval object and it's flying really low 405 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: and it's kind of slow, and it looks like it's 406 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: headed toward uh this nearby town. The whole description of 407 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: the shape, I mean, it's so interesting to me because 408 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: would this have been out in any real way other 409 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 1: than on the wire, Not the wire, but like rather 410 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: like the CB kind of system, you know, for for 411 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: the dispatch, Like, are are these other sightings people that 412 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: would not have been privy to any of that chatter? Yes, 413 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,719 Speaker 1: that's correct, and the timeline speaking sure, because I mean 414 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: we've seen other instances where people were describing similar things, 415 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: but they also had reports that they had seen of 416 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: that shape, like the the kite, the shaped ones with 417 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: I think it was a drone situation of like formation 418 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: of drones that we talked about recently, But with this one, 419 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: it's like there's no reason for people to just pull 420 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: that shape out of you know, the thin air literally, 421 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: And it's also not a typical flying saucer shape. It's 422 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: definitely the first egg like a UFO or your U 423 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: U a P that I've ever heard about. I don't 424 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: know about you guys. Well, I mean there's through reports 425 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: of round objects like that that are kind of oval 426 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: in nature. That have. I mean, if you look through 427 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: Project Blue book, stuff that was seen in the air 428 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: floating strangely and looked kind of like an egg that 429 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: were in fact weather balloons or other balloons. That's a 430 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: good point. There were weather balloons and or they were 431 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: or they would be described with series of lights running 432 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: horizontally or something like that. But but you nailed it. 433 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: Because the idea here is that if somebody is purposefully 434 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: or accidentally misreporting something because they've been primed by earlier 435 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: stories of weird stuff in the sky, then they're probably 436 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: going to go with the most common reported thing, which 437 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: at that point would have been the disc shaped flying saucer. 438 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: But other corroboration occurs. There were also several witnesses who 439 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: claimed to clearly remember hearing that loud roar around the 440 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: same times. A more acclaimed are the same times, I 441 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: should say, because some people reported hearing it twice the 442 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: one that he said he heard after the thing was 443 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: taking off. It turned out, in fact, that three separate 444 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 1: people had independently contacted the sa Coorral Police to report 445 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: something strange in the sky around this time, and those 446 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 1: reports all came before Zamora's account hit the news. And 447 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: this means if we're thinking logically that at the very 448 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: least multiple people saw something, or you could say that 449 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: Zamora conspired with multiple people for some sort of elaborate 450 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: hoax because they were bored and TikTok wasn't a thing yet. 451 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: I don't know that asked a lot. But the first 452 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: idea that people saw something at the very basis, I 453 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: think that feels solid because it's not making any claims 454 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: about the nature of what they saw. It really could 455 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: have just been, to your point, Matt, a balloon. I mean, 456 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: it could have. It could have very well been that. 457 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: Who knows. We'll get into some some more of those things. 458 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: I think towards the end here, at least the like 459 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: the highly skeptical version of this story, that's that's out there. 460 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: But here, here's the thing. Even days later, people were 461 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: still seeing things or at least, you know, maybe again, 462 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: as you said, been there primed now with the story 463 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: kind of coming out and starting to spread. But on 464 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: April six, which is two days after the initial Zamora 465 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: incident and sighting, there are other witnesses who were saying 466 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: they saw something out there that was quote shaped like 467 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: a butane tank. Uh, and it was a landing on 468 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: the ground. And if you imagine the flames that are 469 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: described by Zamora, you can kind of imagine a butane 470 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: tank open that it's like spewing out flames, maybe those 471 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: little fire or a rocket of sorts and um, and 472 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: that that's what it feels like to me, just flames 473 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: spewing out of a small opening in this metal shape. Totally. 474 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: And then they did recall seeing it take off again 475 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: with the same blue white flame they described it as. Uh. 476 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: There were also in this guy's investigation. And again the 477 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: guy we're talking about here, Stanford, is a private citizen 478 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: doing this. He's not working for the government. Uh. He 479 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: finds that at this site that people are describing a 480 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: few days later, there are also four large indentations on 481 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: the ground, with several smaller rounder ones and a burned 482 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: circular patch of ground that he feels clearly marks the 483 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: landing site. Now, there are a lot of ways that 484 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: surface area can get burned, obviously, but still it looks weird, 485 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: and that inspires people to talk about cover ups. It's 486 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: time covers and cover ups. There we go nailing it. Uh. Yeah, 487 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: Uncle Sam comes to interview Zamora on the and weirdly enough, 488 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: the FBI Army kind of team not. There's an army 489 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: captain named Richard T. Holder who comes essentially because he 490 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: is uh the most senior officer available at White Sands, 491 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: which is based nearby, and he possees up and arrives 492 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: at the scene with a guy named Arthur Burns. Arthur 493 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: Burns works for the FBI, and they interview him kind 494 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: of the way. You know, they probably give him, maybe 495 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: not the third degree, but they're definitely thorough the way 496 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: that our old pal Viking got the shakedown in the 497 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: Wells Fargo in Idaho. Uhama says, they give him the 498 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: old what for? Just so, and Zamora says, you know, 499 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: maybe I saw some sort of secret government experiment. I 500 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: don't know. You guys are the you guys were on 501 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: the same side, but you guys are the expert and 502 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. And what's funny is Captain Holder 503 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: shut that one down so quickly. He even went to 504 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: the press too long after and said, look, the military 505 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: has quote no object that would compare to the objects 506 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: described by Zamora. And that is the origin point, the 507 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: genesis of the allegations of cover up. They continue today, 508 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: so you know, you will tend to see ufologists like 509 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: James E. McDonald arguing in this case that like, you know, 510 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: g men, we're taking samples of fused sand quote unquote 511 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: for analysis and then suppressed the findings. Uh. You also 512 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: have some pretty blatant backstage tensions between Zamora and Chavez 513 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: and the guys that are you know, on the scene 514 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: representing Project blue Book who arrived four days after the event, 515 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: and of course, you know, a line of lo a 516 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: wapi and thrown around. I imagine you know, you always 517 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: see it in movies where you've got a local jurisdiction, uh, 518 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: local investigation, and then the big boys from from the 519 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: big city come in and it's and it's never it's 520 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: never fun. It's never like there's always some kind of 521 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: like weird, uh you know, sense of being at odds. 522 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: But that happens on April again, four days after the 523 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: the initial event, and the officers were annoyed, of course, 524 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: that the Blue Book team were insisting that it was 525 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: a hoax because in their mind, that's slandering their buddies. Amora, 526 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: who in particular was offended so much that he actually 527 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: refused to speak with hi Neech at all. Yeah, and 528 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: you can understand that because this is the kind of 529 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: guy who doesn't want to be seen as a crackpot 530 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: or a kook, you know, and his umbridge is completely 531 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: rational at this point. But this becomes a tipping point 532 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: for hei Nick. This is going to change the course 533 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: of Hieneck's career, because he said, you know what, I 534 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: work with the evidence I have, and I tried to 535 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: do my best to think critically about this evidence. And 536 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: what I'm seeing here tells me that not only may 537 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: there be some sand fused or otherwise to this story, 538 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: but I'm starting to wonder whether the military and ultimately 539 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 1: the US government and the Pentagon, I wonder if they're 540 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: even interested in actually finding the truth or if they 541 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 1: just want to sort of shoehorn things into a narrative. 542 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: And then he starts taking shots at the at the establishment. 543 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: Later he writes, when he's talking about this is is a 544 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: more incident. Later he says, I think this case maybe 545 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: the Rosetta Stone. There's never been a strong case with 546 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: so unimpeachable a witness. And then later talking about the 547 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: Air Force, he says, the Air Force doesn't know what 548 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: science is. He goes and also, we should mention Hei 549 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: nich later goes on that same show with Schrode where 550 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: where Zamora had been earlier, and he said, look, they're 551 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: not allowing me to I'm not supposed to talk about 552 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: the markings on the craft. And Zamora reported seeing markings. 553 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: Later witnesses who are a little maybe less reliable reported 554 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: seeing some kind of marking. We're not saying they're less 555 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: reliable because they are bad faith actors necessarily. We're saying 556 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: it because they were civilians looking at stuff from the ground, 557 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,359 Speaker 1: so like they and they were far away, or this 558 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: thing was already high in the air, even if it 559 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: was at a low altitude. But maybe we talk a 560 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: little bit about that symbol. That's kind of cool. We've 561 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: got a picture of it, just stuck in your artist 562 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: rendition because there's not a photograph. Uh, it looks to 563 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: me kind of sinister in the way it's in the 564 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: way it's painted here. Yeah, you guys want to describe it, 565 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 1: or someone want to take a crack at it. Now, 566 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what it looks like. Uh, it's a 567 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: moderately curved line at the top. It's red in this instance, 568 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: and it's um let's say, twice the length of a 569 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: very similar line that is below that one, Okay, and 570 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: central smaller layer witchy side. I mean, it's got like 571 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: a cultic kind of vibe to it. What did you say? 572 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: Maybe it also doesn't look like much of a symbol 573 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: at all. I just have to be honest. Uh, it 574 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: looks like it could be folds on, you know, the 575 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: way some fabric is folded, and it appears to look 576 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: like lines from shadow. But but let me just finish 577 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: describing the line on the top half of that line 578 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: below it, and in between those two lines, there is 579 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: an arrow that starts near the smaller line on the 580 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: bottom moves upward, and then the pointed part or crescent 581 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: part kind of is just below the large line. Yeah. 582 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: What what's your take? Now, that's a very side Yeah exactly. 583 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: Let me I I just put in another one in 584 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: our notes here. If you check out this other linkolage, 585 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: I just dropped this in. What you'll see is another 586 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: interpretation where that top horizontal line becomes curved like an 587 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: upside down you, which makes it look even more like 588 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: this side up you know what, I balloon inflates this way, 589 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: or balloon inflates this way. Oh, what are we talking about. 590 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: We'll pause for a word from our sponsor and then 591 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: we'll take the take a little more skeptical approach. All right, 592 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: we're back. Here's the skeptical approach. Part and parcel of 593 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: understanding something is that we need to look at look 594 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: at it from as many sides and perspectives as possible. Yes, 595 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: there's no proof right now of extraterrestrials visiting what we 596 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: call planet Earth at this point. The most plausible theory 597 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: for something like that is the hilariously named pan spermia concept. 598 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: Uh yep, real thing. Also, there's no publicly acknowledged nor 599 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: publicly available physical evidence of what happened that April afternoon 600 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: in New Mexico so many decades ago. But the kicker 601 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: is that it is I think the only one of 602 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: these encounters and one of these situations that Project Bluebook 603 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 1: documented where they didn't have a reasonable um explanation for it. Yeah, 604 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:17,959 Speaker 1: it's one of the few. It's one of the very 605 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,919 Speaker 1: few where they just had to put it under their 606 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: miscellaneous category unknown. Secondly, the primary witness, the protagonist in 607 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: this story, up to this point had an impeccable rep 608 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: and one of the investigators even turned on his chain 609 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: of command he felt their motive suspect also might not 610 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: know this, folks. The Air Force prepared not one, but 611 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 1: two reports regarding the events in Skoro on April, kind 612 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: of like the recent Pentagon report, where one was really 613 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: scant and it was for the public and it was 614 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,399 Speaker 1: based sically like we need more money. And then the 615 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: second one was classified. It was for Congress, and a 616 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: heavily redacted version of that just came out recently, but 617 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: it is heavily redacted. Uh. So maybe we talk a 618 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: little bit about those those two different reports, because the 619 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: thing about those two different reports is they're very different. 620 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: At times they appear to contradict one another. So the 621 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,280 Speaker 1: first report, UM that was put together for public consumption, 622 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: highlighted some of the obvious errors throughout the investigation, all 623 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,919 Speaker 1: of which um were in fact true. UM how discreetly 624 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: uh and purposefully rendered those errors might have been, at 625 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: least at a higher level of the Air Force is 626 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: still a subject for debate. UM. A second report, however, 627 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,399 Speaker 1: prepared by Major Hector Quintanilla, the director of Project Blue 628 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: Book at the time went to the CIA, and the 629 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: public didn't learn about that one until the two thousand's 630 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: UM and it totally doesn't jibe with the public report 631 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: that we talked about a minute ago. The very first one. 632 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,240 Speaker 1: UM they say, and there was no doubt that Zamora 633 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: witnessed something that evening, and go and goes on to 634 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: say that, unlike what the public would hear, uh quote, 635 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: there was no question and quote regarding his reliability as 636 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: a witness. UM. A particularly telling line was that he 637 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: was puzzled by what he saw and frankly, so are 638 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: we Yeah, that's the report. So when they were talking 639 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 1: to the public, they said, this is how the investigation 640 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: got messed up on multiple fronts, heavily insinuating that therefore 641 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: any conclusions would be tainted or contaminated by lack of methodology. 642 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: But the second report, when they're talking to C I A. 643 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: They say, I don't know, though, just between us, I 644 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know, you guys, there was something 645 00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,040 Speaker 1: on the wing, but there was something there, definitely I 646 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: and I think that makes the most sense. He definitely 647 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: saw something. What he saw, though is what should be 648 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: in question, like what was that thing? What could it 649 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: actually be. And I think that's where the skeptics side 650 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: really comes in here. What is it with our government 651 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,359 Speaker 1: that we have to act like we know everything all 652 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: the time, Like this is obviously a report that was 653 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: not intended for people to read, at least for a 654 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: very long time. But why not just come out and say, yeah, 655 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: that was weird and we're with you, understand either. I know, well, 656 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,280 Speaker 1: I I don't know personally, I would respect it if 657 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: if there if there was that kind of transparency actually 658 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: all levels. If if there were a politician or a 659 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: president who just stopped doing the song and dance of 660 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: ideology in the past and just said, look, they got 661 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 1: the lithium, we want the lithium, we're going to war. 662 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if I would agree with him, but 663 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: I would respect them for for not trying to defeat 664 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,439 Speaker 1: some hawkam Ami story. You know. But maybe it's maybe 665 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,320 Speaker 1: it's job security for some of those folks. Uh maybe 666 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: uh in this case, there were Cold war concerns or something. Anyway, 667 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: it all makes sense. I I say, look, we get 668 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: the government that we get with the one that we 669 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 1: want necessarily pretty much across the board. But I do 670 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: I do wonder what the actual long term benefit of 671 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:25,879 Speaker 1: these kinds of things are, because it seems like they're 672 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: not very good at keeping secrets, and so the secrets 673 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 1: they keep I don't fully understand the rationale behind. Think 674 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: about the problem that would create in your mind if 675 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: you were in the shoes of Heinek or one of 676 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: these other people who's actually doing these bluebook investigations. You 677 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,399 Speaker 1: know that there are secret government programs that our need 678 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 1: to know, and you are currently not somebody who needs 679 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: to know. You just are tasked with finding out what 680 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: the reports are and if there's any significance. It doesn't 681 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 1: mean they're going to read you in to the need 682 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,439 Speaker 1: to know special the special h what is it called, 683 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: ben the special programs, the special operation programs or whatever 684 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: they're called special use programs, whatever the thing was, right, Like, 685 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean you're going to know all that stuff, 686 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 1: but you're tasked in a way with keeping that stuff 687 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: still secret. I just wonder what that does with your 688 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: head if you're the one investigating up. Yeah, you recognize 689 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: it by the uh, the feeling of running into invisible barriers, 690 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: right because you don't need to know, but you were, 691 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 1: So it's like you hit a force field, an invisible 692 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: stone wall. Uh. And like when you're chasing invisible turtles. Yes, yeah, yeah, 693 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: you know it by its absence, not and you know 694 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 1: it by its ripples, just like the invisible turtles. That 695 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 1: is a very small pro tip. So curious, you're and 696 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: curious here. Yeah, let's give some air to the skeptical 697 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: side of the story, because I think skeptics bring up 698 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 1: some good points here. First, going back on the need 699 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: to know basis, just because many of the people involved 700 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 1: at the time could not nail down a mundane explanation 701 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:14,320 Speaker 1: does not mean that such an explanation does not exist. 702 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,800 Speaker 1: It's a weird way to phrase it, but it's true. 703 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: Just rewind it and think about think about how true 704 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,360 Speaker 1: that is. As the years wind on and the great 705 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 1: game of telephone continues, more and more people came up 706 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: with different explanations, and more and more people dove into 707 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 1: increasingly less spooky, more mundane theories about these incidents. For 708 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: a time, and this is this is one of the 709 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,719 Speaker 1: ones that was very very popular for quite a while. 710 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 1: For a time, there was a popular theory that blamed 711 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:56,240 Speaker 1: the whole thing on that super villain Nasa. Yes, Nasa, Uh, NASA. 712 00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,799 Speaker 1: The idea was that they were testing and early in 713 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 1: engineering model of a lunar probe called Surveyor that would 714 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: later go to the Moon. In this is true, surveyors 715 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,000 Speaker 1: a real thing. The testing was done out of an 716 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: Air Force space in New Mexico, Holloman, that's at the 717 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: White Sands Missile Range. Researchers looking into this did find 718 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:26,359 Speaker 1: proof that the surveyor was being carried by a helicopter 719 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,400 Speaker 1: on the same day as the sighting, but not at 720 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,359 Speaker 1: the same time. And if you look at where this 721 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,400 Speaker 1: the helicopter is probably flying. It's if it's on the 722 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: same day, it doesn't matter if it's not in the 723 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:46,520 Speaker 1: same general area. And it was probably flying about almost 724 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: a hundred miles fifty kilometers from Skoro as the spacecraft flies. 725 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 1: And then this is where yeah, no, no apologies, you 726 00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,759 Speaker 1: no word to play left behind. And then let's go 727 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 1: to Ryan Dunning at Skeptoy who points out even more 728 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:10,480 Speaker 1: problems with the NASA lunar probe theory. Oh yeah, we 729 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,120 Speaker 1: can jump through this one. This is at least Dunning's taken. Dunning, 730 00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,960 Speaker 1: MAT's a great point. You're saying, Ben at this place 731 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,760 Speaker 1: is very far away where they would have been flying 732 00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:28,160 Speaker 1: this experimental spacecraft or experimental space traveler or moon mooncraft 733 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 1: maybe it's a mooncraft, we call it that. Um uh, 734 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: it was too far away and and what dunning this thing? 735 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,800 Speaker 1: Is that? Why why would NASA? Why would they choose 736 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 1: to move this thing so far away? And like let 737 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,759 Speaker 1: the regular civilians see it? Like why why would they 738 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,720 Speaker 1: do that? Because it's because it's rogue, baby, it's logue. 739 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,360 Speaker 1: But but think about the tensions that exist at the 740 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: time about why it was so important to be sending 741 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,000 Speaker 1: things to the moon, Like it would have been a 742 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 1: bone headed move, that's for sure, and eggheaded movie even 743 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,120 Speaker 1: And maybe that's what happened, but it just seems very 744 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,239 Speaker 1: unlikely that that would actually occur, That they would have 745 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 1: lost track of one of these Is that what you're 746 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: saying that they would have not had it completely under lockdown. No, well, yeah, 747 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 1: like flowing it and not lost track of it, but 748 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,719 Speaker 1: just flown it nearer civilians in that way, rather than 749 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: keeping it. But when we say rogue, doesn't that mean 750 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,760 Speaker 1: someone like went too far with it or stole it. 751 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,040 Speaker 1: It'd be weird to steal it would be possible, but'd 752 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,359 Speaker 1: be it'd be weird for someone to be interested in 753 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: that in that level. I think for me. Another thing 754 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 1: that uh really challenges the surveyor theory is just the 755 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 1: physical appearance of what is being reported, which sounds a 756 00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,399 Speaker 1: lot like an oval or balloon. But if you want 757 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 1: to go to your browser of choice, you can get 758 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 1: a look at the surveyor lunar lander. It looks like 759 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 1: a lot of different shapes, none of which are balloons. 760 00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 1: It's kind of a tripod structure. It's got some solar panel, 761 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,960 Speaker 1: you know, popping out at the top, and it's got 762 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:07,839 Speaker 1: a bunch of instruments. You know, it looks like it 763 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,959 Speaker 1: looks like a lunar lander of that time. It does 764 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 1: not look like an alien craft unless you know you 765 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 1: yourself or an alien and you've never heard of humans. 766 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 1: There's another damning nail in the coffin here. Surveyor doesn't 767 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:28,960 Speaker 1: have liftoff capability. It was never designed to hop back up. 768 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,799 Speaker 1: It goes down, it doesn't come up, and so it 769 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to physically do what this what Zamora's 770 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,799 Speaker 1: sighting or thing that he saw it does. And this 771 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: is where we get to when the last proposed explanations, 772 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: which I think is not perfect, but it's kind of funny. 773 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:51,879 Speaker 1: Skoro is in a big town, but it is home 774 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: to a place called New Mexico Tech. In ninety there's 775 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:02,320 Speaker 1: this chemist named Lioness Paul, two time Nobel Prize winner 776 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,799 Speaker 1: series Dude. He's controversial for some of his leader in 777 00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: Life views, as Dunning points out, but he writes to 778 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:14,120 Speaker 1: then president of New Mexico Tech, a guy with an awesome, 779 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 1: weird name, Sterling Colgate, that's his real name, and he 780 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 1: says basically, he and Sterling are in contact. And he says, 781 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,719 Speaker 1: what do you think about this whole lonnies of mora thing? 782 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:30,759 Speaker 1: And Colgate replies, short and sweet, We're just gonna read 783 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,960 Speaker 1: you the exact quote. I have a good indication of 784 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:39,400 Speaker 1: student who engineered hoax. Wait for it, student has left 785 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: cheers Sterling. So yeah, this is a this is a 786 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,360 Speaker 1: written uh, this is a written missive. This is a 787 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:51,560 Speaker 1: written communication like a like a shorthand tossed off email basically, 788 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,560 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, Classic has given that 789 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 1: much attention, that much you know that he's not even 790 00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,359 Speaker 1: he's like not even reading in complete sentences. I like that, 791 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,560 Speaker 1: mm hmm. And so the idea that is that it's 792 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 1: a prank, that the long story short. The idea that 793 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,280 Speaker 1: would be proposed by many skeptics is that some kids 794 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,040 Speaker 1: over at New Mexico Tech got a big, big balloon 795 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:23,240 Speaker 1: and they set it aloft using some sort of incendiary 796 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,600 Speaker 1: well not even explosive device like a big candle, right, 797 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,840 Speaker 1: and that carried it aloft and then it came back down. 798 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,440 Speaker 1: They lit it back up again, and boom, you have 799 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,359 Speaker 1: your UFO. But if that is the case, we could 800 00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,840 Speaker 1: reasonably ask, in all the decades since, why has not 801 00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:45,000 Speaker 1: one of those students come forward to claim responsibility. Here 802 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,320 Speaker 1: is something I think is pretty understandable for any any 803 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,000 Speaker 1: pranks folk in the audience. Let's say you pull a 804 00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,799 Speaker 1: good prank, right, you get the school mascot on top 805 00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,000 Speaker 1: of the roof of your alma mater, or you see 806 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,200 Speaker 1: you'll uh the hand of his statue or something like that, 807 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,279 Speaker 1: and you all have your yucks in your ha has. 808 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:09,640 Speaker 1: And then the next day the cops show up, and 809 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,560 Speaker 1: then later that afternoon the FBI shows up, and then 810 00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,640 Speaker 1: a couple of days later the Air Force is there. Oh, 811 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,120 Speaker 1: and the Army swings by. Oh, and they're swarming your town. 812 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,880 Speaker 1: Oh and they're not leaving. Oh and reporters are showing up. 813 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe you would want to lay low, you know 814 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,600 Speaker 1: what I mean? Maybe or and hear me out, guys, 815 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,799 Speaker 1: just post the whole thing on TikTok. After that you'd 816 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:34,600 Speaker 1: be famous. Yeah. Yeah, this was before this was before 817 00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:38,200 Speaker 1: that era where everybody felt required to do that kind 818 00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,480 Speaker 1: of stuff and worship at the altar of self. Uh. 819 00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,200 Speaker 1: And maybe it was a better world. But that's kind 820 00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,880 Speaker 1: of where we're at. So to sew up Lonny is 821 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:48,960 Speaker 1: a more his life. And I should say Lonny was 822 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,080 Speaker 1: just his nickname. He never legally changed it. But uh, 823 00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,080 Speaker 1: to sew up Lottie's life. He never was a crackpot. 824 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,440 Speaker 1: He told the truth to the best of his ability 825 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,000 Speaker 1: from his perspective, and he really did not try to 826 00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,640 Speaker 1: make outlandish conclusions. He wasn't out to like sell a 827 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:08,600 Speaker 1: ton of books and be a grifter. Uh. He eventually, 828 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,560 Speaker 1: the fact got so tired of people bothering him about this, 829 00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,400 Speaker 1: he retired. He retired from the public eye. Uh. He 830 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:21,279 Speaker 1: had a series of different non law enforcement jobs. Uh, 831 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:25,280 Speaker 1: you know, and he passed away peacefully November two, two 832 00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,160 Speaker 1: thousand and nine. And as of two there are still 833 00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,000 Speaker 1: tons of people who will tell you they know exactly 834 00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 1: what it was Zamora saw. Some will say it was 835 00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:39,080 Speaker 1: definitely nephilium, definitely an alien craft. Some will say it 836 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:44,640 Speaker 1: was definitely an experimental government skunk works type thing, and 837 00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:48,280 Speaker 1: some will say it was definitively a hoax or a balloon. 838 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:52,960 Speaker 1: And some people will say there's not enough information to 839 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: say for sure. And in this case, as of now, 840 00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:00,279 Speaker 1: that last group by default seems the close us to 841 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,040 Speaker 1: the truth. And one person will say it was definitely 842 00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:09,160 Speaker 1: Robin Williams doing a screen test as Mark, and that 843 00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: person is our one and only, Miss Fresh Frederick and 844 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:20,719 Speaker 1: uh nold Nephelin Brown. Uh that's awesome. So at this 845 00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,719 Speaker 1: point we want to hear We want to hear your 846 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,440 Speaker 1: take on this because you know, with a lot of 847 00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:30,680 Speaker 1: these stories, as time passes, some of the genuine evidence 848 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:34,960 Speaker 1: gets lost the time, especially the recollections of the people 849 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,040 Speaker 1: who were there when things went down. And then on 850 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,520 Speaker 1: the other side of that, the noise increases more and 851 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,960 Speaker 1: more rumors or conjectures get confused with fact. So we 852 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,479 Speaker 1: want to know what you think what happened back there 853 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,279 Speaker 1: in New Mexico. We can't wait to hear your take. 854 00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,520 Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we try to 855 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,399 Speaker 1: be easy to find online. We do. Indeed, you can 856 00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,720 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook, you can find us on YouTube, 857 00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:00,680 Speaker 1: you can find us on to Winter at the handle 858 00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,400 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff. You can find us on Instagram and Conspiracy 859 00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,399 Speaker 1: Stuff Show. But wait, would you like to use your 860 00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:10,680 Speaker 1: mouth to communicate with us verbally, auditorially? You can do 861 00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:12,760 Speaker 1: that as well and more of an old school fashion, 862 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,000 Speaker 1: by giving a telephone call. Our number is one eight 863 00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:26,760 Speaker 1: three three st d w y t k S Morning, evening, afternoon, 864 00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,520 Speaker 1: whatever time, no time like the present. The afternoon is 865 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,040 Speaker 1: the most delightful for us. I would say, uh, here 866 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,400 Speaker 1: we go. When you call in, please give yourself a 867 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:40,000 Speaker 1: cool nickname, and then you have three minutes towards you. 868 00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:41,880 Speaker 1: You do say anything you want. We want to hear 869 00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:43,920 Speaker 1: your opinions on things. We want to hear stories you 870 00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,799 Speaker 1: want us to cover. We want to hear absolutely everything. 871 00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,319 Speaker 1: What's that weird thing that happened with your cat? We're 872 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:54,360 Speaker 1: into it. Let us know. Um at some point, please 873 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:55,960 Speaker 1: let us know if we can use your voice and 874 00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,080 Speaker 1: message on the air in one of our listener Maile episodes. 875 00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,040 Speaker 1: We very much a apreciate that. And if you've got 876 00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,720 Speaker 1: more to say, you've got documents or links or anything 877 00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,600 Speaker 1: like that you want to share, why not instead send 878 00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,600 Speaker 1: us a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at 879 00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:33,160 Speaker 1: i heart radio dot com. 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