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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you overwhelmed with this case?

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Speaker 2: I was just joking, you know, we should make this

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Speaker 2: like a triple partner. I think people would be upset

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Speaker 2: about that. This is like this is a docu series

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Speaker 2: on Netflix at this point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm game though, but I've been you know, this

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Speaker 3: is this is sort of the types of cases that

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Speaker 3: I dig into, and you know, I've got for the

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Speaker 3: first time in YouTube, I've got a little bit of bourbon.

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Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to hearing, you know the rest of

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Speaker 3: the story, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: I've got some tea, my tea. I've posted about my

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Speaker 2: tea in the past. I posted on Instagram a double

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Speaker 2: photo of me drinking tea in Wicked Word sound booth

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Speaker 2: and me drinking tea out here, and I, of course

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Speaker 2: look completely different to the folks who are on my

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Speaker 2: Wicked Words show. So okay, let me try to do

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Speaker 2: a roundup of what happened last week. So we have

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Speaker 2: a serial killer, and so far we know that he

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Speaker 2: is in Long Island because he has it seems like

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Speaker 2: a very similar method strangulation, sometimes sexual assault, sometimes not.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes clothings removed, sometimes it's not. You know, we're in

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Speaker 2: Long Island for Diane Cusick starting in nineteen sixty eight,

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Speaker 2: who was the one found at the Mall parking lot

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Speaker 2: in her car. And then we had four years later

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Speaker 2: Mary Hintz, who was found floating face down in that

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Speaker 2: creek in Rockville Center, New York. Then just a couple

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Speaker 2: of months later, basically the exact same spot, Laverne Moy

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Speaker 2: underneath a small bridge, and Laverne I think is the

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Speaker 2: beginning of not being fully clothed. Then we have Sila Hyman.

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Speaker 2: She's a little different because this is in her home.

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Speaker 2: Her husband had only been gone about two and a

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Speaker 2: half hours or so, and that was in north Wood Mirror,

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Speaker 2: New York, five miles from Rockville Center where the other

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Speaker 2: two women were found. Is Maria, and Maria is several

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Speaker 2: months after Sheila, and she is in an overgrown area

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Speaker 2: of Jones Beach, not far from a bus stop. But

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Speaker 2: you're not convinced that she was attacked by the bus

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Speaker 2: stop because she was You called it packaged, and so

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Speaker 2: we don't know what happened with Maria, but she was

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Speaker 2: found bound and wrapped up in a blanket and some

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Speaker 2: plastic in the way she was bound to look like

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Speaker 2: it was a way for the offender to carry her.

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Speaker 2: Then we have Marianne Carr, and this is when we

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Speaker 2: go to New Jersey and Marianne Carr is the X

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Speaker 2: ray technician who it sounds like was abducted from her

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Speaker 2: apartment complex in Bergen County and taken very close by

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Speaker 2: to a quality in. And then three years after that,

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty, there's a sex worker named Valerie Ann

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Speaker 2: Street who's found in that same quality in three years later,

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Speaker 2: but inside a room we found out that she had

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Speaker 2: checked in under an assumed name, and there was a

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Speaker 2: man with her, but that was the end of any

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Speaker 2: kind of description or anything like that, and she was

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Speaker 2: found underneath the bed. So then I told you at

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Speaker 2: the end of this, so that is seven victims. I

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Speaker 2: told you at the end of this we're going to

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Speaker 2: be moving to a different location. Did you have before

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Speaker 2: we talk about the location, did you have any sort

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Speaker 2: of thoughts or anything, you know, just regarding what happened

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Speaker 2: in episode one?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think you know, I think it's notable. You

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Speaker 3: know that the initial five attacks are occurring out there

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Speaker 3: in Long Island, and then the last two he's going

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Speaker 3: over to New Jersey. The two cases in New Jersey

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Speaker 3: they have a connection to that motel and a very

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Speaker 3: strong connection with the last one Valerie, who's a sex

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Speaker 3: worker and checks in with a client in the room

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Speaker 3: where her body is found. I think it's possible even

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Speaker 3: though these last two cases are occurring in New Jersey,

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Speaker 3: he may be traveling from Long Island. This location doesn't

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Speaker 3: necessarily mean that he has moved. And it's notable. We're

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Speaker 3: talking seven cases over the span of twelve years. So

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Speaker 3: now we have to also start factoring in the offender's life.

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Speaker 3: Let's say he was twenty five for the first attack

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Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty eight, now he's thirty seven. Right, Life

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Speaker 3: changes occur, jobs change, marriages, kids are born. It all

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Speaker 3: depends on who this guy is. But that is a

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Speaker 3: component that is going to influence how this series continues

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Speaker 3: to evolve because his personal life is going to have

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Speaker 3: an influence on what he does in these cases.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about where we're heading next. So you know,

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Speaker 2: we had victims in Long Island, we had two victims

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Speaker 2: in New Jersey, and now we are going to New

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Speaker 2: York City. But not just New York City. We're going

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Speaker 2: to Times Square, which you know, I need to set

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Speaker 2: the scene with this Times Square in the seventies and eighties,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you know the reputation. I mean, it is

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Speaker 2: lots of sex work, lots of pornography. But you know,

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Speaker 2: from what I've seen in what I've read, really really

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Speaker 2: dangerous for sex workers, like really really really dangerous, and

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Speaker 2: the police were kind of hamstrung. And so that's the

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Speaker 2: environment we're going into where we've been sort of having

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Speaker 2: worlds that were a little smaller if these weren't random crimes.

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Speaker 2: But now with Times Square and the just like the

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Speaker 2: violent and the electricity around what that place was like.

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Speaker 2: It to me changes things a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I didn't realize Times Square was like

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Speaker 3: that back in the seventies. Yes, you know, for me,

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Speaker 3: Times Square is what it is today. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: a touristy, you know, very you know all the signage

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Speaker 3: and everything else. In fact, you and I had me

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Speaker 3: you know, at one point we were in big you

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Speaker 3: know photograph of us in Times Square right for buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: This is not that Times Square. I can tell.

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Speaker 3: You the location as it exists today would surprise me.

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Speaker 3: The location as you're describing it in nineteen seventy nine

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Speaker 3: is exactly the type of location. I would think that

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Speaker 3: this offender, because of his last case in New Jersey

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Speaker 3: with Valerie, a sex worker, again, he is comfortable in

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Speaker 3: that type of location where you now have it sounds

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Speaker 3: like Times Square is a stroll area in Manhattan. You know.

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Speaker 3: So this of course is going to be a magnet

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Speaker 3: for predators and he's he's won, and he has to

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Speaker 3: be comfortable in that type of culture if he's going

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Speaker 3: to go in there and grab a victim.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting because within Times Square I had read

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Speaker 2: about this, and then when I watched the series, they

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Speaker 2: talked about that time Square just attracted everybody, I mean,

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Speaker 2: white collar men who would go to a peep show

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Speaker 2: on their lunch break, you know, who worked in the area.

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Speaker 2: Of course, there's tourists everywhere, but there is just I mean,

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Speaker 2: it is an incredible amount of hotels, motels who cater

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Speaker 2: to sex work. And unfortunately, what I learned was that

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Speaker 2: so much of the of the industry was connected to

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Speaker 2: the mafia and the mob in New York and it

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Speaker 2: drew in a very dangerous crowd. Not that it wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be dangerous already, but it just made things even worse

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Speaker 2: for the women. So yeah, stroll area is an understatement.

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Speaker 2: And you know the idea of the peep shows, I

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Speaker 2: mean the traditional where the window goes up, you put

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Speaker 2: in money, the window goes up, you see some kind

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Speaker 2: of salacious stuff, and then the window goes down and

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Speaker 2: you keep spending money. That was sort of the minimum.

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Speaker 2: So this is the environment we're heading into now. The

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Speaker 2: reason that we did this in this order was I

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Speaker 2: wanted to show you, of course that you know, you

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Speaker 2: have Mariann Carr and Valerie Ann Street connected because they're

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Speaker 2: at the same hotel, even though they're three years apart.

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Speaker 2: But in between, in nineteen seventy nine, we're in Manhattan,

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Speaker 2: so this is about a year before they find Valerie's body.

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Speaker 2: Inside the Quality and Motel room, they find the bodies

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Speaker 2: of two presumed sex workers. Now, one is a Jane Doe,

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Speaker 2: and that's one of the reasons why we said presumed.

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Speaker 2: The other one is a woman named Dida Goudarzi. And

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Speaker 2: you know, we say presumed in some of the material.

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Speaker 2: But then when I watched the Netflix series, her daughter,

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Speaker 2: who she had offered for adoption when Dita was really young,

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Speaker 2: said she was a sex worker. She was what they

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Speaker 2: would call maybe high end. And I don't mean that

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Speaker 2: in a derogatory way or a positive way. I mean

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Speaker 2: she had one or two clients for a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: So I never want to label people with anything other

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Speaker 2: than who they are, and that's why I'm trying to clarify.

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Speaker 2: And they've never been able to figure out the Jane Doe.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so well, a couple of things. First, in this

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Speaker 3: day and age, if they have access to Jane Doe's remains,

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Speaker 3: we can probably figure her out through genealogy, and they

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Speaker 3: should do that, and hopefully they're working towards that with data.

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Speaker 3: You know, this goes into the victimology. You know, we

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Speaker 3: talk about sex workers and we kind of lump them

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Speaker 3: into the same category. But we can't do that. We

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Speaker 3: have to truly understand what type of sex work that

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Speaker 3: they're doing, you know, and this is for investigative purposes.

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Speaker 3: So that's when I was talking about Thatalery. I want

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Speaker 3: to know is she somebody who's walking on the stroll

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Speaker 3: area or is she in escort? Is she meeting the

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Speaker 3: client at this motel or did he pick her up

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Speaker 3: on the stroll area? That tells me a lot about

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Speaker 3: the offender. So with DITA, I need to know, you know,

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Speaker 3: you use the term high end. Yes, there are what

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Speaker 3: you would say professionals, and they are typically very glammed up.

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Speaker 3: They don't walk in the stroll area, they have limited

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Speaker 3: high paying clients. And so if I have somebody like

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Speaker 3: that who's becoming a victim of this killer, how is

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Speaker 3: this offender running across data? You know, So that's all

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Speaker 3: just part of getting a sense. It's part of the victimology.

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Speaker 3: We just can't say they're a sex worker. We need

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Speaker 3: to know what type of sex work they're doing.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you.

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Speaker 2: I mean, based on that series and a couple of

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Speaker 2: interviews that I've Readdda's daughter, who, as I said, you know,

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Speaker 2: had been adopted by a couple. Her name is Jennifer Boy.

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Speaker 2: She really was pretty amazing. And you know, I'll tell

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Speaker 2: you why, for many different reasons. Let me tell you

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Speaker 2: now about the victims, and boy, of course I wish

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Speaker 2: we knew who Jane Doe was the woman she was with,

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Speaker 2: the reason that these women were found so quickly is

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Speaker 2: because the offender set the room on fire, and it

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Speaker 2: is at a travel in motor hotel right in Times Square.

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Speaker 2: Dita was twenty two, maybe twenty three, and they think

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Speaker 2: that Jane Doe was in her teens or early twenties.

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Speaker 2: Once they put the fire out, man, I remember this

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Speaker 2: detail from the series. I think the firefighters went in

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Speaker 2: and they could see that there were people there, and

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Speaker 2: one of them went to go give CPR and there

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Speaker 2: was no head.

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Speaker 3: No head because of the fire or no head because

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Speaker 3: the killer had decapitated.

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Speaker 2: The victim decapitated. And you know, this is one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons why this became also known as the Torso murders.

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Speaker 2: So let me tell you what they find. They believe

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Speaker 2: they were set on fire after they were killed. They

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Speaker 2: were both sexually assaulted and tortured, which sounds like the

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Speaker 2: kind of torture that Valerie Ann Street suffered. Nicks and

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Speaker 2: cuts and you know, lots of detailed, really difficult things

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Speaker 2: for her to get through when she was still alive.

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Speaker 2: The heads in their hands were removed from their bodies

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Speaker 2: and were not there, not present at the scene. Dida

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Speaker 2: was identified by her clothing that were left behind at

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Speaker 2: the hotel. They had been neatly folded and placed in

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Speaker 2: the bathtub, and that's what we know.

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Speaker 3: INDEEDA likely didn't do that.

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. And we have profilers on who

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Speaker 2: worked on the case that I had, you know, listened to,

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Speaker 2: and they said, the person, now, you tell me what

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Speaker 2: you think the person who did this intentionally set the

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Speaker 2: fire to draw attention, not to cover up. What do

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Speaker 2: you think.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is a motel in Times Square, so obviously

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Speaker 3: as soon as smoke is being seen, going to have

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Speaker 3: fire alerted. And you have so many people that are

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Speaker 3: in this location at all times of the day and

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Speaker 3: night that I could see where they would draw this conclusion.

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Speaker 3: It also it's dependent upon well, how has the fire

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Speaker 3: started where was it? As an example, if the offender's

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Speaker 3: trying to cover up the crime, he's going to be

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Speaker 3: pouring accelerant on the victims' bodies and lighting their bodies

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Speaker 3: on fire. But if he's starting a fire in a

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Speaker 3: trash can across the room, you know, that's going to

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Speaker 3: really delay any part of the evidence that may be

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Speaker 3: present with the victim's body. And there I would say, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that likely would suggest that he's trying to get the smoke,

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Speaker 3: you know, as sort of attention getter, versus trying to

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Speaker 3: truly destroy the crime scene and the victims' bodies. The

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Speaker 3: folding of Dda's clothing is significant. You know, the offender

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Speaker 3: likely did that he put the clothing in the bathtub

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Speaker 3: that possibly was to protect the clothing from being burned

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Speaker 3: up from the fire, and it's folded. You know, this

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Speaker 3: is where with some of the previous cases where you

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Speaker 3: know we have the victim's clothing, you know, he's possibly

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Speaker 3: redressing the clothing is significant to him, you know, and

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Speaker 3: he's like sending a message, he's protecting, he's folding and

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Speaker 3: protecting Dda's clothing with the hope that responders are going

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Speaker 3: to notice that.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you something smart that I picked

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Speaker 2: up on this series that one of the detectives did.

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Speaker 2: The way that they were able to have the clothing

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Speaker 2: be a positive ID for DTA is you know, you

264
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Speaker 2: can hand people clothes and say, hey, did she own

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Speaker 2: you know who owned this? Do we think anybody owned this?

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Speaker 2: What they did was they took a mannequin. They were

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Speaker 2: at a department store, and the one of the detectives said,

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Speaker 2: or an officer said, why don't we just take one

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Speaker 2: of these mannequins and dress it in her clothing? And

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Speaker 2: when they did, they had somebody who recognized and said

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Speaker 2: that's Stida's clothing, which I just thought, well that's simple,

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Speaker 2: but that was that's a really interesting way to display

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Speaker 2: the clothing so that you can kind of visualize who

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Speaker 2: that person might have been.

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Speaker 3: Sure, and in this day and age, you have to

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Speaker 3: process that clothing for DNA evidence and trace evidence prior

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Speaker 3: to any type of dressing it on a mannequin.

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Speaker 2: M Yeah, absolutely, But they did not have that benefit

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Speaker 2: back there in nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 3: Pole, This is seventy nine year. I have to remind

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Speaker 3: myself that why did.

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Speaker 2: They Okay, then after that happened with these two women,

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Speaker 2: then Valerie Ann Street was the next victim after that,

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Speaker 2: So that one happened in the next year, in nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 3: And a question that I have on Dida and Jane

286
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Speaker 3: Doe's case is were their heads and hands found in

287
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Speaker 3: the motel room or had did the offender take those

288
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Speaker 3: with him.

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Speaker 2: I don't believe they were ever found.

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Speaker 3: I mean, some offenders will do this type of mutilation

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Speaker 3: to the bodies because it's part of their fantasy. But

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Speaker 3: I believe he's doing this to delay identification of the victims,

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Speaker 3: and he's trying to separate himself. He's calling attention to

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Speaker 3: the crime, but he doesn't want them identified too quickly

295
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Speaker 3: because possibly if they're identified quickly, then maybe the pimp,

296
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Speaker 3: the madam, you know, law enforcement can talk to them

297
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Speaker 3: and they go, well, these two went with who we

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Speaker 3: know as John and give a description or something, you know.

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Speaker 3: So he's definitely wanting that delay and identification.

300
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Speaker 2: Now we're going to talk about the tenth victim. It's

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty and we're still in New York. It's not

302
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Speaker 2: Times Square, but it is in the Nomad area, which

303
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Speaker 2: is North Madison Square, and this is at a hotel

304
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Speaker 2: called the Seville and it's a twenty five year old

305
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Speaker 2: sex worker. Her name is Gene Rayner, and she's found

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Speaker 2: dead inside the hotel. She had been sexually assaulted and

307
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Speaker 2: tortured before having her throat slashed and her boy set

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Speaker 2: on fire. So I feel like, now he's done everything

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Speaker 2: but shot them. I mean, I haven't heard anything about

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Speaker 2: a gun at this point, but we've had strangulation, we've

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Speaker 2: had beating, we've now had a knife, and I know

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Speaker 2: again they change weapons all the time. It's so interesting

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Speaker 2: the fallacies that you think, you know, reading about true

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Speaker 2: crime growing up and thinking all of these things that

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Speaker 2: were definite, and they're not definite. Let me tell you

316
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,360
Speaker 2: something different. So before he fled the scene, the offender

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Speaker 2: cut off her breasts and put them on the headboard

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Speaker 2: of the bed. We're thinking obviously shock value, but you

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Speaker 2: can tell me, and he took the clothes with him.

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Speaker 3: Well, we started out in nineteen sixty eight and very

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Speaker 3: very different crime, very different victimology. We started to see

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Speaker 3: his violence escalate when he bludgeoned the one victim in

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Speaker 3: the bathroom. Now he seems, at least with the last

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Speaker 3: cases that you've talked about, he gravitated towards sex workers.

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Speaker 3: These are victims that will voluntarily go with him versus

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Speaker 3: his other victims like mary Anne out there in New Jersey.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's an ear witness right here's mary Anne's

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Speaker 3: scream says, I will, I will. You know, it sounds

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Speaker 3: like he's probably putting a knife in her side, got

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Speaker 3: a gun out, and saying you're coming with me, and

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Speaker 3: she's responding, I will, I will. But now he's going

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Speaker 3: to sex workers. And again I don't know if he's

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Speaker 3: in the stroll areas, you know, picking these women up

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Speaker 3: off the street, if he's going through some sort of

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Speaker 3: escort service. But he for whatever reason, has decided that

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00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,879
Speaker 3: that this is his preferred victim. And it may just

337
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 3: be because of the it's lower risk to him. The

338
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,160
Speaker 3: abductions are high risk, especially in some of the locations

339
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Speaker 3: where he's ply abducting the prior victims out there on

340
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Speaker 3: Long Island. Now he's decided he wants to continue doing

341
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Speaker 3: committing these crimes, and he's going after sex workers. Now

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Speaker 3: there may be what we will call a missionary component

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Speaker 3: to what he's doing. He may have some personal philosophy

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Speaker 3: that justifies him going after sex workers, you know, whether

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Speaker 3: he's like a Gary Ridgeway, you know, reading the Bible,

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Speaker 3: going oh this is sinful, and so therefore I am,

347
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Speaker 3: you know, purging the world out of these victims that

348
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Speaker 3: are committing these horrific you know, in his mind sins.

349
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Speaker 3: But it may just be purely mo based. It's easier

350
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Speaker 3: for him to get these victims. The mutilation. You know,

351
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Speaker 3: we've seen the evolution and the mutilation, and now we

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Speaker 3: have a gene you know again at another I guess

353
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Speaker 3: it's a hotel. The cutting off the breasts and then

354
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Speaker 3: putting them on the headboard. Obviously, you know, this is

355
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Speaker 3: a this is a form of posing. You know, he is,

356
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Speaker 3: as you mentioned, used the term shock value. He is

357
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 3: now feeling his oats. He is confident. He has now

358
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Speaker 3: been offending for twelve years. He's been getting away with

359
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 3: these crimes. In a way, this is a boast. He

360
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 3: is boasting, he is taunting. He's somebody that's going to continue.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, now let me tell you about the very

362
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Speaker 2: very latest one. So this is nineteen eighty and now

363
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Speaker 2: we are back at that quality inn where Marianne was

364
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Speaker 2: kidnapped and murdered Valerie and Street was murdered. We were

365
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Speaker 2: back at the same quality in before I tell you

366
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Speaker 2: what happens, and this involves a sex worker. Why does

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Speaker 2: he continue to go back to this one particular quality

368
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Speaker 2: in I mean, I don't know if there's an emotional attachment,

369
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Speaker 2: but it just seems I don't know, it seems to

370
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Speaker 2: tempt fade a little bit, don't you think.

371
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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's significant to him. You know, we

372
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Speaker 3: can't necessarily, you know, read his mind as to why

373
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Speaker 3: it's significant. It may strictly because it's mo he's recognizing,

374
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Speaker 3: let's say, the lack of law enforcement in the area,

375
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Speaker 3: the prevalence of sex work that flows in and out

376
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,639
Speaker 3: of this particular motel, and so he's got confidence that

377
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Speaker 3: he can commit his crimes and not be caught because

378
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,120
Speaker 3: of what he is seeing, you know. And he's already

379
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Speaker 3: you know, done two crimes. He's dumped one body there

380
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Speaker 3: and he killed another gal Valerie in the room. But

381
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Speaker 3: there may be something else going on in his mind.

382
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Speaker 3: Maybe he tried to rent a room there at some

383
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 3: point and the lobby clerk turned him away. And now

384
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,159
Speaker 3: he's mad at that location, and so he's you know,

385
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 3: killing at this location as a way to get back at,

386
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 3: you know, the the motel itself, so to speak.

387
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Speaker 2: Okay, well, let me tell you what happens. There is

388
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Speaker 2: a housekeeper who's working at the Quality and hotel. She

389
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 2: hears screams, she calls the police. The police come and

390
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 2: they find Leslie and O'Dell, the sex worker. She's handcuffed,

391
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Speaker 2: she has knife wounds, she has incredibly severe bite marks

392
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 2: all over her body. She is still alive and survives.

393
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Speaker 2: And the offender is still there and they.

394
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Speaker 3: Arrest him, caught in the act.

395
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Speaker 2: Can you believe that's what stopped him? It was literally

396
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 2: a housekeeper who heard screams and reacted, and he would

397
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Speaker 2: have just kept going. Right. This is his name, Richard Cottingham.

398
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 3: Oh, I know the name.

399
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 2: She don't know the case finally, a serial killer case

400
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 2: you don't know from nineteen hundreds.

401
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 3: That's good those on the other side of the country.

402
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. Now, everything that you have tried to

403
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 2: put together about who this offender is, let's see how

404
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 2: it matches up with who Richard Cottingham is. He has

405
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 2: been living an assuming life, as they sometimes do married father.

406
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: He is a career man.

407
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 2: He and his family live in Lodi, New Jersey, Bergen County.

408
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: We know we have two cases from New Jersey and

409
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 2: he is very close to the Hasbrook Heights Quality Inn.

410
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 2: But he has an insurance job in New York and

411
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 2: he has family in Long Island, So there are those connections.

412
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: You mentioned an age we talked about kind of a

413
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 2: twenty five in nineteen sixty eight. You know, if he

414
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 2: were twenty five and now he would be this. He

415
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,479
Speaker 2: was twenty two in nineteen sixty eight and he has

416
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 2: arrested in nineteen eighty.

417
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 3: So he's in his mid thirties when he's caught.

418
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 2: Yes, by the late nineteen seventies, he's in his late

419
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 2: thirties kind of, and his wife senses something's really off

420
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: with him. She files for divorce, and by that point

421
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: he was on his sixth victim. And you know, people

422
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: want to know sometimes does the spouse know, I know

423
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 2: that's coming up a lot with the Go Go Beach murders.

424
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 2: Did his wife have a sense that anything was off?

425
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,880
Speaker 2: What is your theory about any of that? Either these

426
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: guys are really really great actors, or the spouses feel

427
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: like what this woman felt, something is off, But they're

428
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: not thinking they're slooping next to a serial killer.

429
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 3: No, you know, I would say in most situations, the

430
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 3: spouse is unaware. These guys are very good at compartmentalizing

431
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 3: these crimes. They take advantage of life circumstances that gives

432
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 3: them an excuse to be out and about, you know.

433
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: And this is where, you know, is he telling his wife,

434
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 3: you know, the insurance job, I have to go entertain

435
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 3: some clients and instead what he's doing is he's picking

436
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 3: up sex workers. She's probably got that woman's intuition that

437
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 3: this man she's married to, there's a change, and you

438
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 3: see the change from nineteen sixty eight to nineteen eighty.

439
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 3: He is changing in terms of how he is interacting

440
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 3: with his victims, and he's getting much more violent with

441
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 3: his victims. So that may have been something that she

442
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 3: was sensing. Now I think it's interesting. You know, he

443
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 3: has family in Long Island. Was he living all the

444
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 3: way out of New Jersey in nineteen sixty eight for

445
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 3: Diane's case or was he out in Long Island at

446
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 3: the time. He's twenty two, so maybe still with parents.

447
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 3: The shift and where he is committing his cases from

448
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 3: Long Island out to New Jersey and then in between,

449
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 3: you know, the Times Square or North Madison Square, you know,

450
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 3: up in northern Manhattan. You know, it's interesting and this

451
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 3: is where, you know, you start talking geographic profile. You know,

452
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 3: the longs is an anchor point for him, at least

453
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 3: with his family, and maybe he was raised there, maybe

454
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 3: he lived there when he first got married or lived

455
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 3: with his parents. Did you say his job was in Manhattan, yes, Okay,

456
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 3: So that's an anchor point.

457
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: Close to Times Square. And the series actually interviews a

458
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: co worker of his with this insurance company and kind

459
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: of talks about how they would all brag about conquests

460
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 2: with women. But he worked there in that proximity. So

461
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: he grew up in He was born in forty six.

462
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 2: He grew up in the mont Haven neighborhood of the Bronx,

463
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 2: and then his family moved to Dumont, New Jersey, and

464
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 2: then to Riverdale, New Jersey, which is where this sort

465
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 2: of fascination with pornography and bondage and stuff started to develop.

466
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: I suppose in sixty four he graduated from a high

467
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: school in Hillsdale, New Jersey, and then he worked for

468
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: Metropolitan Life where his dad was a vice president, and

469
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 2: he was in Manhattan and he started in the mailroom,

470
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 2: and it sounds like he was pretty much always in

471
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 2: Manhattan for work. Let me tell you something screwed up.

472
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 2: He was at Blue Cross, Blue Shield and he worked

473
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 2: in an office with Rodney Alcala. It's from Woman of

474
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: the Hour. He's the serial killer from that really well known,

475
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 2: really well reviewed Netflix series.

476
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just shows you coincidences happened. They never

477
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 3: paired up. But these are two, you know, serial killers

478
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 3: working in the same area at the same time. But

479
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 3: they're just not killing there, just happened to be there.

480
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 3: So it sounds like, okay, so his entire adult career

481
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 3: he is Manhattan based. Right now, it sounds like the

482
00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 3: Long Island connection is family and he's not necessarily personally

483
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 3: living out there with his family, but he's going out there,

484
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 3: he's familiar with the area. One of the theories, and

485
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 3: this is doctor Kim Rossmo who wrote the book one

486
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 3: of the primary books on geographic profiling, talks about I

487
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 3: think he called it the smoke stack theory is that

488
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 3: you think about these offenders and they have these anchor points.

489
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 3: You know their residents, their place of work, where they

490
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: go to recreate, you know, things that they travel in between. Frequently.

491
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 3: Oftentimes they may attack in the general area of this

492
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 3: anchor point, but not too close to the anchor point.

493
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 3: And so if you have enough attacks, you can put

494
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: those on a map. And these these attacks may encircle

495
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 3: where this person's residence is or their place of work.

496
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 3: They're just making sure they're not attacking right next door, right,

497
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 3: but they may be attacking five blocks because they're familiar

498
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 3: with the area. They are in the area, and they

499
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 3: may get off work and go, well, I'm going to

500
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 3: drive around that neighborhood and see what I can find

501
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 3: in that neighborhood as they're commuting home, you know, so

502
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 3: they're peeling off their commute route in order to be

503
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 3: able to go find victims.

504
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 2: So I think he was in New Jersey when he

505
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: graduated high school, which was in sixty four, four years

506
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: before Diane was murdered. He graduated in sixty four and

507
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: that was from New Jersey. And then he gets married

508
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 2: six years later and he gets married in Queens. But

509
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: I think they were in Lodi at that point in

510
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: New Jersey also, so I'm just seeing him in New.

511
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 3: Jersey mostly Okay, So he gets married in nineteen seventy, then, yes.

512
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: It looks like he got married in nineteen seventy.

513
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 3: So if we take a look at the distribution of

514
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 3: his attacks NA law, logically he is not married for

515
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 3: Diane's case in nineteen sixty eight, and then we have

516
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 3: a four year gap. He gets married after Diane's case

517
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy and two years after he gets married,

518
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 3: that's when he's attacking Mary and Laverne. So he does

519
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 3: two attacks in nineteen seventy two, and then a year

520
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 3: later he's doing Sheila, you know. And these are all

521
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 3: out there in log Island, as well as Maria seventy three,

522
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: you know. So it appears that after he gets married,

523
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: there's still a pause in his cases, and that may

524
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 3: just be because he doesn't have the freedom in order

525
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 3: to go out and attack. Then something allows him to

526
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 3: carry out attacks in nineteen seventy two and seventy three.

527
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 3: You said he had kids. Do you know when his

528
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 3: kids were born?

529
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: He has three children, two boys and a girl with

530
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: his wife. I can look at see when they were born,

531
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: but I know they were married in seventy and his

532
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: I file for divorce in seventy eight, so within eight

533
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: years they had three kids.

534
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 3: So that divorce in nineteen seventy eight is also significant

535
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 3: because when you take a look at after the divorce,

536
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 3: what is he doing to these women? He is brutally

537
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 3: you know, he's torturing them, he's mutilating their bodies, he's

538
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 3: cutting their heads and hands off, setting a couple of

539
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 3: these women on fire. So this divorce may have had

540
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 3: a psychological impact on him. This may be a where

541
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 3: I mentioned before, an anger retaliatory type of offender, where

542
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: now the divorce may have created this internal anger that

543
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 3: caused him to escalate the level of violence against women

544
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 3: in proxy because he's really angry at his wife.

545
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: And this is when he switches to sex workers. Yes,

546
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: his last woman who did not work in the sex

547
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 2: industry was Mary Anne in seventy seven, and then he

548
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 2: switches to the Times Square Victims in seventy nine, and

549
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: then we go back to Valerie Anne, who is a

550
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 2: sex worker at the Quality Inn in eighty and then

551
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 2: again back to New York. I'm assuming you know when

552
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: he's at the insurance company in eighty with Gene Rayner,

553
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 2: and then he gets caught with another sex worker.

554
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 3: Wow. Right, So you think about sort of the real

555
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 3: life aspect in his personal life of what happens, you know,

556
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 3: the divorce. I'm assuming they're not continuing to live together,

557
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 3: They're going to be separate. Now he has greater freedom

558
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 3: to be out, let's say, in the middle of the night.

559
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: Now he's getting familiar and don't know if he dabbled

560
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 3: with sex workers and stroll areas prior, but now he

561
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 3: has the freedom to go out there and hire sex workers.

562
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 3: And then eventually he's now victimizing sex workers as a

563
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 3: serial killer, hitting that comfort level of that culture, so

564
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 3: to speak. And then he's now escalating the violence. You know.

565
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 3: So the divorce I think is pivotal in Cottingham's series

566
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 3: in terms of you see that switch, and it's because

567
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 3: greater freedom as well as the anger from the divorce.

568
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: M h. I will say, once he's been arrested and

569
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 2: this becomes a massive story, women come forward and say,

570
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 2: you know, these these women were not the only ones.

571
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: We were attacked to, raped, abducted, tortured. We have a

572
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: pregnant waitress, another sex worker, and then of course you

573
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 2: know you have Leslie and Odell, who is the reason

574
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 2: why he was caught to begin with. So he is

575
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 2: convicted around the same time, he's convicted of several murders

576
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: in both New Jersey and New York State. That includes

577
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 2: marian Carr who was abducted from her apartment complex. So

578
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 2: the note says coincidentally, it's not coincidence. Obviously, Conningham and

579
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 2: his ex wife used to live in the same damn

580
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 2: complex as Marianne Carr.

581
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 3: Close to the quality in now lived there at the

582
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 3: same time Maryanne did. No, I don't believe so, so

583
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 3: it's a watering hole for him. He's familiar with that area.

584
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 3: He's in that area and mary Anne got off work,

585
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 3: she's heading to her apartment, and he takes advantage and

586
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 3: it maybe is something where he's been surveilling that apartment

587
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 3: complex for maybe weeks, maybe months, and has noticed what

588
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 3: time Mary Anne gets home and is saying, here's this

589
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 3: you know gallony uniform. You know that I'm able to

590
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 3: I can grab her, and he plans it and he

591
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 3: successfully is able to get her away from her apartment

592
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 3: and then ultimately sexually assaults and kills her.

593
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 2: Well, now let's talk about the police work going into this.

594
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: You know, eventually he's going to be found guilty of

595
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 2: murdering many of these women, but there's evidence that they've

596
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 2: gathered beforehand. They find clothing and belongings with Cottingham from

597
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: many of these women. Jeene Rayner's necklace, a key to

598
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 2: Marianne Carr's apartment, a Koala bear trinket that belonged to

599
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 2: Valerie Ann Street, and these were all in his house.

600
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 2: They also managed to get a thumb print that matched

601
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 2: his from handcuffs that were used to restrain Valerie.

602
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 3: That's all great evidence. He's obviously collecting souvenirs. Did he

603
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 3: have any shoes from his victims?

604
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 2: Well, we're getting to that because he confesses and he

605
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: says there's a lot more where that came from. So

606
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 2: for decades he denies all of this, but after thirty

607
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: or so years he starts to talk where he starts

608
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 2: to finally admit to some of these killings. I told

609
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 2: you kind of about heroes. Dita's daughter was one of

610
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: the ones who got information out of him and just

611
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,439
Speaker 2: wanting information about her mom, who she never got to meet.

612
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: But let me kind of go back and tell you

613
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 2: what happens, because again these are more pieces that I

614
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 2: find interesting based on everything that you've said, that things

615
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: read to you. So he says that he is responsible

616
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: for a string of unsolved murders in the Tri state area.

617
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 2: He says he started with a woman named Nancy Vogel

618
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty seven, so that would have made him

619
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. He said that he kidnapped her from

620
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: a mall in Bergen County. He sexually assaulted and strangled

621
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 2: her to death in a field, and then put her

622
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 2: in the backseat of her car naked and left her

623
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: in a residential street. There's that theory that you and

624
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 2: I have talked about about, you know, killers confessing to

625
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 2: every like Henry Lucas confessing to a thousand murders. But

626
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: the police say that he knew a lot of things

627
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 2: about that case that were never made public. They think

628
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 2: that he's a responsible for that, for that killing of

629
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: Nancy Vogel.

630
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 3: Well in that case, that case parallels Diane's case, Okay.

631
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 2: He says that he murdered several teen girls in the

632
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 2: late nineteen sixties, so probably around the same time, and

633
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: also in Bergen County. He said he'd randomly encounter these

634
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 2: women in public. These girls in public, there's a thirteen

635
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 2: year old named Jacqueline Harp in sixty eight, same year

636
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: as Marianne An, eighteen year old Irene Blasa, and fifteen

637
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 2: year old Denise Flaska, both in sixty nine, and each

638
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: girl was strangled to death. So this is pre marriage

639
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 2: and early to mid twenties. What does that say to you?

640
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 2: It's it seemed like almost like a spree to me.

641
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: That's a lot of people to attack.

642
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, the term spree is for a different type

643
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 3: of killer than a serial killer. He's straight up a

644
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 3: serial predator starting in early twenties, and he likely has

645
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 3: had fantasy about committing these types of crimes during his

646
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 3: teenage years. I wouldn't be surprised if he had rape

647
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 3: victims going back into the high school age. So you know,

648
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 3: he is much more prolific in this late sixties than

649
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 3: what we knew from the original cases that you talked about.

650
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 3: And that's where you see what happens when he gets

651
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 3: married in nineteen seventy, All of a sudden, he's slowing

652
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 3: down unless you tell me. Also, he's confessing to more

653
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 3: cases during that nineteen seventy to seventy two timeframe.

654
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: So this is what he says. This is such a

655
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 2: big document. It's hard for I have to keep going

656
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: back to figure out where we are. Okay, so he says,

657
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 2: we've talked about the sixties. All those girls were strangled

658
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 2: to death. I know that doesn't mean anything, but as

659
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 2: far as like you know, connecting him, they were strangled

660
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: to death twenty one. This guy's still alive. Four years ago.

661
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 2: He confesses to kidnapping and raping, murdering a seventeen year

662
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 2: old who I've heard of, Marianne Pryor, and a sixteen

663
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 2: year old Lorraine Kelly. These are both girls who were

664
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 2: murdered in nineteen seventy four, So this is right after Maria,

665
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: and Maria was in I think she was our last

666
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: victim in Long Island before we move over to New Jersey,

667
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: and that was Marianne Carr in seventy seven. So I

668
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 2: don't know when he decided to move back to New Jersey,

669
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: but he's so these Let me tell you about these

670
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 2: teenage girls. These two girls were hitchhiking to a New

671
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: Jersey mall to buy bathing suits. Back to malls, not

672
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 2: the same one. I believe they were taken to a

673
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 2: motel where they were beaten, tortured, sexually assaulted, and ultimately

674
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 2: drowned in the room's bathtub. And they were taken to

675
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 2: a wooded area of Bergen County where their wrists in

676
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: their ankles were still bound when they were found.

677
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 3: This is where talking about some of his earlier cases,

678
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 3: and I was thinking, he's taking these women to a

679
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 3: different location where he's interacting with them, killing them, sexually

680
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 3: assaulting them, and then he's dumping their bodies. That's what's

681
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 3: happening with these teenage girls. And so maybe on Long Island.

682
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 3: If his family residence is all the way out in

683
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 3: New Jersey and he's got his family there, his wife

684
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 3: is there, the kids are there, he is very probably

685
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 3: using a motel on Long Island where he's taking some

686
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 3: of these women, interacting with them, killing them, and then

687
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 3: dumping their bodies out there on Long Island.

688
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 2: Okay, we've got more. So in twenty twenty two, so

689
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 2: three years ago, he confesses to murdering Diane Kusick, who

690
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 2: we thought was our own. You know, the first victim

691
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 2: clearly wasn't because DNA was collected from her car and

692
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: in linked by him. So he gets another twenty five

693
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 2: years in prison. He was given life, of course, without

694
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 2: parole on some of these other murder cases. And he

695
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 2: also says he's responsible for Mary and Laverne and Sheila

696
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 2: and Maria's murders. Now this appears to be part of

697
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 2: a deal with the DA, who says, just admit it,

698
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 2: and I won't prosecute you because we don't want to

699
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: deal with more trials in the media. But the family

700
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 2: wants answers, and of course the public wants answers to also.

701
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 2: It says that he's gotten certain privileges, so access to

702
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 2: certain foods in exchange for his information. How do you

703
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 2: feel about that? I don't know how I feel about that.

704
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: I'm also not the family of these young women who

705
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 2: want answers.

706
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 3: Well, and that's really what it comes down to, you know,

707
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 3: is the DA. You know my experience and I the

708
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 3: last four years, almost four years of my career, I

709
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 3: worked directly for the DA's office. I mean, they do

710
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 3: pay attention to what the family's wishes are. And if

711
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 3: the family is like, no way in hell is he

712
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,879
Speaker 3: going to get any special privileges, we want him prosecuted.

713
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 3: You know, the DA will pay attention to that. Not necessarily,

714
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 3: you know, just do what the family says, but most certainly,

715
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 3: if there's any deals to be made, the DA's office

716
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 3: is going to pay attention. And from my perspective, if

717
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 3: all he's getting is certain food items in exchange for

718
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 3: confession details about what happened to these families loved ones

719
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,479
Speaker 3: all for it, you know, you're not setting him free,

720
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 3: you're not making his life luxurious in custody. You're just

721
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 3: giving him something a little bit more than what he

722
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 3: would get in order to get these families' answers.

723
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: So he makes those confessions to the people we've covered

724
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 2: on this show. But then he says he's also murdered

725
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 2: a twenty six year old sex worker named Lorraine McGraw,

726
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 2: who's beaten body was found in nineteen seventy in South Nayak,

727
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 2: New York. And I'm pointing at you because that is

728
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 2: marriage year and the first sex worker I think we've

729
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 2: heard about.

730
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 3: Okay, so that didn't.

731
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: Coincide with my theory of he switched totally to sex

732
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 2: workers after the seventy eight divorce, because he obviously encounters

733
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 2: this woman.

734
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, but what it does suggest is at

735
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 3: a much younger age. He is hiring sex workers, and

736
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 3: prior to this homicide, he is hiring sex workers as

737
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 3: just a client. I often talk about barriers to offence

738
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 3: and how an offender has to cross certain social barriers

739
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 3: to get more and more comfortable to committing the types

740
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 3: of crimes that they ultimately commit. Joseph DiAngelo had to

741
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 3: get comfortable breaking into houses and so therefore, you know,

742
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 3: you go back and look at that evolution. He was

743
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 3: a peeping tom. You know, he's a burglar during the day,

744
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 3: and then he becomes a cat burglar night while there's

745
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 3: occupants inside the house. He's having to cross certain barriers

746
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,399
Speaker 3: for offenders that prey on sex workers who are out

747
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 3: on the street. And that's the important part is I've

748
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 3: emphasized before what I call the stroll area. This is

749
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 3: a different culture. It can be a scary culture and

750
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 3: a scary environment for the kind of the uninitiated. And

751
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 3: so this type of offender has to start learning how

752
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 3: to interact with these victims, has to start seeing, well,

753
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 3: how do I spot law enforcement? Is law enforcement doing

754
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 3: a vice operation? Is there a decoy out?

755
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 2: You know?

756
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 3: And as the offender gets comfortable with that culture, now

757
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 3: that offender, if their ultimate goal is to isolate a

758
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 3: sex worker and sexually assault and kill them and carry

759
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 3: out their fantasy, you know they already have many times

760
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:57,240
Speaker 3: been in that area. So with Cottingham, if he's killing

761
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 3: a sex worker in nineteen seventy and he's picking her

762
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 3: up out of a stroll area, that means that well,

763
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 3: prior to nineteen seventy he's probably been hiring sex workers

764
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 3: and is familiar with them and is comfortable with that environment.

765
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 3: Now it's interesting that, at least with what you've told me,

766
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 3: he doesn't kill sex workers again until the late seventies.

767
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 2: We have to keep going because he keeps confessing two

768
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 2: years ago, a year and a half. Frankly, he admits

769
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,919
Speaker 2: to the murder of a seventeen year old girl named

770
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 2: mary Ann Della Sala in January of sixty seven. To

771
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 2: listen to this, Paul, because I think you'll find this interesting.

772
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 2: So I think this is his earliest confession as of now.

773
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 2: I probably have to do a Google search because something

774
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: else might have popped up yesterday. But this is January

775
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 2: of nineteen sixty seven, and I don't think we have

776
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: a sixty six This girl mary Anne worked as a

777
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 2: cashier at a grocery store in Hackensack, New Jersey, which

778
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 2: is Bergen County, which is apparently where he lived. He

779
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: used to go to that store all the time and

780
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 2: he had a crush on her, So it started on

781
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 2: as a crush. He stalked her as she walked home

782
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,839
Speaker 2: from work, somehow got her into his car. We don't

783
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 2: know if it was voluntary or an abduction. He sexually

784
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: assaulted her before expiciating her. They said, it's not clear

785
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 2: if he strangled her or you know, if he put

786
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 2: some kind of object over her mouth. He left her

787
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: body in a muddy area near the river where she

788
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 2: was found three months later. How awful for her parents.

789
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 2: So is that a thing? This one started as a

790
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 2: crush someone he knew. He came to visit the store

791
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 2: all the time because he liked her, and it kind

792
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 2: of there it goes after that.

793
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 3: Well, I think his internal thoughts about this victim under

794
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 3: the guise of a crush are very different than what

795
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 3: a normal person is thinking. Right, you know, I can

796
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 3: guarantee he has had violent fantasies, violent sexual fantasies about

797
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 3: girls and women prior to this girl. He may have

798
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 3: found her very attractive. But stalking, to me is very

799
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 3: particular type of crime versus surveillance. And so when I

800
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 3: use the term stalking, and I'm not even talking about

801
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 3: how stocking is defined in statutes, I'm talking about how

802
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 3: I use the term stocking. This is where now you

803
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 3: have an offender that has developed an obsession, is following, communicating.

804
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 3: The victim is aware that this offender is really trying

805
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 3: to make the victim uncomfortable because there's this jealousy and

806
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 3: vindictiveness and obsession that is very different than a predator

807
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 3: who is following a victim around to learn her movements,

808
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 3: to watch her, to fantasize about her. That's surveillance. He's

809
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 3: on the hunt. He's trolling for victims. So that's where

810
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 3: with Cottingham, with his very first case, he sees this,

811
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,919
Speaker 3: I mean, she was what seventeen, you said, Yeah, they're

812
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 3: peers if you will, in terms of the age range.

813
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 3: But instead of asking her for her number, right and

814
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,479
Speaker 3: let's go out on a date, you know, he puts

815
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 3: her under surveillance and he abducts her and kills her.

816
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 3: He's living out his fantasy. So him using the term crush,

817
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 3: I just don't. I don't buy it. You know, he

818
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 3: may have had some level of feelings for her, but

819
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 3: it was well he wants to get off, you know,

820
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 3: sexually assaulting and killing her. That's the bottom line.

821
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 2: There are a lot of people focused on this case,

822
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 2: on Cottingham in general, so they think that he might

823
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 2: be connected to a nineteen seventy four blows budgeting case

824
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 2: of a fifteen year old girl named Lisa Thomas in

825
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: New York State, and Cottingham kind of confessed to it.

826
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure what that means, except the police

827
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 2: said he doesn't have the facts to back it up.

828
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, as far as I can tell, this is

829
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 2: the first time they've called BS on him, so everything

830
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 2: else he's listing off seems to be legitimate. Overwhelmingly. At

831
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: this point, he has confessed to murdering more than one

832
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: hundred women. I do want to answer one little question

833
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 2: for you. He'll answer it essentially the shoes. So does

834
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 2: he have a foot fetish? You know, what are some

835
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 2: of the tell me some of the different things you

836
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 2: had said foot fetish or is there more practical things

837
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 2: or well.

838
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 3: So people often get the term fetish wrong. The term

839
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 3: paraphilia is a broad term in which individuals they have

840
00:50:54,600 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 3: what would be considered abnormal sexual interests of various sort.

841
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 3: A fetish is a paraphilia, and fetish is attraction to

842
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:12,240
Speaker 3: inanimate objects. So the most common fetish in the world

843
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:17,240
Speaker 3: is men's attraction to women's lingerie. That's a fetish considered

844
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 3: really normal. But when you are Jerry Brutos and you're

845
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,240
Speaker 3: cutting women's feet off and keeping them in the freezer

846
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,399
Speaker 3: because you have a foot fetish, technically at that point,

847
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 3: it's an inanimate object, right, and he's getting off sexually

848
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 3: looking and fondling these dismembered feet with Cottingham, you know,

849
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 3: the prevalence of the lack of shoes on his Long

850
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 3: Island victims, you know, that's where it was like, well,

851
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 3: why is that? You know, Is that just because he's

852
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 3: failing to just you know, see them in his vehicle

853
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 3: and he's having to discard them at a secondary location.

854
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,800
Speaker 3: Is he keeping them because he has a shoe fetish?

855
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 3: He gets turned on by women's shoes, and that is

856
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 3: a thing. Is he taking the shoes off because he

857
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 3: has a foot fetish and he's interacting with these victims feet?

858
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 3: You know, So that's where early on, I'm starting to go,

859
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 3: what is going on with the shoes. Is the offender

860
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 3: holding on to these shoes as souvenirs or because he

861
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 3: has a sexual attraction to the shoes, you know? And

862
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 3: so I'm kind of curious to see what the answer is.

863
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 2: So he says that he took off the shoes and

864
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 2: I guess in some cases toss them because he didn't

865
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 2: want to get kicked.

866
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 3: Okay, so it's absolutely a practical thing.

867
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, boy, that was interesting. Now he does not

868
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: explain the folded clothing. In the case of the two

869
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 2: women you know in Times Square, he has not said

870
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 2: where Dita and Jane Do's decapitated heads and hands are.

871
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 2: He won't talk about that. He loves these stupid cat

872
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 2: and mouse games with detectives. He is in his seventies,

873
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 2: he has declining health. He says he's killed more than

874
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,240
Speaker 2: one hundred people, and he has detectives visiting him, hoping

875
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 2: to pry out more confessions before he dies.

876
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 3: Sure, and so you know, first, you know, these types

877
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 3: of details are bargaining chips for him, you know. And

878
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:17,800
Speaker 3: give me a pack of SIGs and I'll tell you

879
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 3: where her head is. Fundamentally, he's holding on to those

880
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 3: types of details. The one thing that and I'm sure

881
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 3: the investigators that are dealing with him are completely savvy

882
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 3: to this, but the one thing you think about the

883
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 3: posing he did in the case where he cut the

884
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,280
Speaker 3: woman's breasts off and put them up for shock value.

885
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 3: That's a look at me, Right, I'm a badass serial killer.

886
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 3: Look at me. Now, he's reckoned, he's never getting out,

887
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 3: he's feeding law enforcement case after case. He's getting a

888
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 3: lot of notoriety as a result. Does he start over

889
00:53:56,040 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 3: extending himself like Henry Lee Lucas because he's demonstrated that

890
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:05,879
Speaker 3: psychology in the posing of that one victim, the look

891
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 3: at me? So this is where you just have to

892
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 3: obviously DNA. If there's DNA in cases, that's easy. But

893
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 3: if it's a case in which he has to provide details,

894
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 3: the interviewers need to know those cases and the details

895
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 3: of those cases inside and out, as well as what

896
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 3: has been publicly disseminated on those cases, because he's going

897
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 3: to be reading up on cases he's got. I'm sure

898
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 3: he has access to various types of media and go, oh,

899
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 3: there's another case in New Jersey. Yeah, I'll say I

900
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 3: did that one too, you know, Okay, feed me specific

901
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 3: details that only the killer would know.

902
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 2: I normally don't have a hard time figuring out how

903
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 2: to wrap up our episodes, but this is so disturbing.

904
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 2: I mean, this is certainly the largest amount of victims

905
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 2: that we've talked about. He is still there are still cases.

906
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 2: The police say, I don't think he's blowing anything out

907
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:06,839
Speaker 2: of proportion. We think he has done a lot more

908
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 2: of these. You know, they're trying to figure out before

909
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: he dies. Essentially, So do we learn anything about this

910
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: kind of case? I mean, I don't even think practical

911
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 2: be careful when you go out at night kind of things.

912
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 2: But what is the big takeaway for you that you

913
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: might bring up later on in another episode? Oh? Yeah,

914
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 2: do you remember we talked about that Cottingham guy? He

915
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 2: did this? Now you know?

916
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 3: Well, my big takeaway has been not just from learning

917
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 3: about Cottingham and the crimes he's committing. This has been

918
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 3: my world for over thirty years. I think it's so

919
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:47,760
Speaker 3: important for people to understand, and specifically I'm talking to women,

920
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 3: but this is not just a type of crime that

921
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 3: impacts women, but there are other victims of serial predators,

922
00:55:56,280 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 3: but by and large, women are the victim. And it's

923
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:07,800
Speaker 3: understanding that there are men out there that are hunting you,

924
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 3: and there are monsters. These men do horrific things to

925
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 3: their victims, and this is where prevention is absolutely key.

926
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 3: You know, you talk about situational awareness. In Diane's case,

927
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 3: you know, did she park out in a dark area

928
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 3: of that parking lot and was that the reason she

929
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:34,760
Speaker 3: was chosen? We don't know, but it's it's a possibility.

930
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 3: These men capitalize on that type of little thing that

931
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 3: you may not think about, but you have to think

932
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 3: about it. Just recently, I used to talk to citizens academies.

933
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:52,919
Speaker 3: I just recently am talking to a group here where

934
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 3: I live and it's a group of women who are

935
00:56:55,800 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 3: taking a class. But the fundamental message is trying to

936
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 3: convey to them there are predators that are specifically targeting

937
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 3: you because you are a woman, and they it's not

938
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 3: just because you happen to cross their paths. They will

939
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 3: go out of the way to find you. You have

940
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 3: to protect yourselves. You have to understand that these guys

941
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 3: exist and do what you can. Still live your life,

942
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 3: but you need to do what you can because you

943
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 3: do not want to become victims of these guys. Yeah,

944
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 3: because like we see with Cottingham, Valerie, her breast is

945
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 3: got numerous cuts to it, horrific. You don't want to

946
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 3: have that done to you.

947
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 2: Well, of the awful, terrible things that we cover, this

948
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 2: is one of the worst cases. I hate to say,

949
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 2: at least at least there is something the families can

950
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 2: have answers, but not all the families. And so, you know,

951
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 2: I think we learn things from every single case that

952
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 2: we did. This is the most profiling I think we've

953
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 2: ever done, and so I think it's interesting what matches up,

954
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 2: you know, what we learn about these stories. In the seventies,

955
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 2: the FBI Behavioral Science Unit went in and interviewed Bundy

956
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 2: and Kemper and all of these different you know, serial

957
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 2: killers and took away useful things. And sometimes I criticize

958
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,959
Speaker 2: when I hear how much a show or an author

959
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 2: or anything really digging in. Don't they ignore the victims

960
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 2: and you know, learn only about the killer. But I

961
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 2: don't believe that's the only reason why people listen to

962
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 2: these kinds of shows. It's just to learn about what

963
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 2: a whack job, you know. Richard Cottingham is. I think

964
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 2: they do want to know the kind of people who

965
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 2: are deprived of a wonderful life, you know, because of

966
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 2: this asshole. So we've learned a lot about him, but

967
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 2: also I think we've learned a lot about the society.

968
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 2: And thank goodness, the cops were working on all of this.

969
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 3: It seemed like, you know, you know, and along those lines, I,

970
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 3: you know, getting into the true crime space. I've talked

971
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 3: to audiences. You know. A message that I always want

972
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 3: to put out there is it's okay, you know, to

973
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 3: be intrigued by the psychology of a serial predator, a

974
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 3: serial killer, you know what makes these guys tick, but

975
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 3: don't glorify them. Don't wear t shirts with their images

976
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 3: on it. You know, recognize that they have taken the

977
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 3: lives of real people, and always remember the victims. Become

978
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 3: victim centric. It's okay to consume, learn about a case,

979
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 3: even be entertained by the story of the case, but

980
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 3: just recognize these cases happen to real people, and that

981
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 3: the person who's committing these crimes is a horrific, horrific person,

982
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 3: and you should never glorify them.

983
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 2: Well, and I tell my students at the University of

984
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:03,439
Speaker 2: Tech says, if this were your sister, wouldn't you want

985
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 2: to kind of have this narrative when we when you

986
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 2: want people to know who she is? Yeah, you're right,

987
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 2: I mean glorifying the killers. I mean that is that

988
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 2: is the antithesis of what you and I try to

989
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 2: do well.

990
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 3: And I think you know too along those lines, is

991
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 3: that in my experience, certain families want their loved one's

992
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 3: cases to be discussed because it's a way that they're

993
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 3: the memory of their loved one is kept alive in

994
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 3: a way. But also there's their message. They're usually wanting

995
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,959
Speaker 3: other people to be helped by their their loved ones

996
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 3: experience that case and what the family has gone through.

997
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 3: You know. So some families don't want that attention and

998
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 3: some do and and that's just you know, I know,

999
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,440
Speaker 3: from from a true crime perspective, you just have to respect.

1000
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 3: You know, if a family does not want to be

1001
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 3: you know, part of a story, part of a podcast,

1002
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 3: part of a TV show, don't press it, you know,

1003
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 3: because they don't that's not something that they're desiring.

1004
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Well, I would like to say next week

1005
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 2: that we're not going to talk about a serial killer,

1006
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 2: but I'm not sure that's the case, because there were

1007
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 2: for the season. I had a little list of the

1008
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 2: serial killer in these cases that people are asking us

1009
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 2: to look at, and so we might end up with

1010
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 2: another serial killer coming up pretty soon. I know that's

1011
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 2: your that's your one of your big interests. But usually

1012
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 2: I like to say, we're not going to be doing

1013
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,439
Speaker 2: this again, but we might be doing this again.

1014
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 3: I will get to a clean, clean piece of paper

1015
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 3: on my notepad, and I'll be ready to go and

1016
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 3: more whiskey.

1017
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 2: I know you were going to say that too.

1018
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 3: Well, there's always that.

1019
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I will see you next week, all right, Kate,

1020
01:01:57,280 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 2: thank you too.

1021
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:05,120
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1022
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot

1023
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1024
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

1025
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 3: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1026
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 2: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1027
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1028
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1029
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1030
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1031
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 2: Buried Bones.

1032
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 3: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

1033
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 3: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

1034
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 3: the criminal mind, is available now, and Paul's.

1035
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 2: Best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold cases,

1036
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 2: is also available now.

1037
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 3: Listen to Barry Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1038
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts