WEBVTT - Bloomberg’s Elon Musk Interview 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:07.800 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:10.840 I'm David Gera and this is the big take from 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:11.680 Bloomberg News. 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:12.280 Today. 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.360 On the show, we're bringing you a special conversation in full. 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:18.800 Elon Musk spoke with Mishaal Hussein, editor at Large for 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:22.880 Bloomberg Weekend at the Cutter Economic Forum. Musk joined remote 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.400 Lea from Austin, wearing his signature dark jacket with a 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:30.080 fur collar. The interview covered a lot of ground, from 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.239 the billionaire's future at Tesla to his ongoing feud with 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:37.280 open Ai CEO Sam Altman and the possibility of Starlink 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:41.839 going public. At times, the conversation grew heated, particularly when 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.800 Michall asked about Starlink operating in South Africa, Musk's country 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.839 of birth, and about reports of his communication with Russian 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:50.120 President Vladimir Putin. 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:55.960 Hello everyone and Elon Musk, Welcome to cut Their Economic Forum. 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:56.480 How are you? 0:00:57.480 --> 0:00:59.200 Thank you for having me. I'm fine, How are you? 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:02.000 Very well? Thank you and very pleased to have you 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:04.600 with us. You know, among those here in the audience 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:06.920 in Doha are some you will know people who have 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.679 backed to you financially over the years since you last 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.119 spoke here in twenty twenty two, A lot has changed 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.280 in your life. You're not only running multiple companies. You 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.400 were doing that then, but now you also have a 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:20.280 role in government. So, first of all, I hope you 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:22.160 don't mind it. From time to time I have to 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.560 move you from one topic to another because we have 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:27.160 a lot to cover in the time we have. That 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:31.080 will be all right, Okay, Well, let's start then with 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:33.840 exactly the fact that you now have this combination of 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.400 being a CEO and having a role as a government advisor. 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:40.800 Tell me about your week. How does it work? What's 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:41.920 the split of your time? 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:47.280 Well, I travel a lot. So I was in Silicon 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:52.280 Valley yesterday morning. I was in Lasa evening, I mean 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.240 Austin right now. I'll be in DC tomorrow. I'll be 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:00.760 there having dinner with Presidence tomorrow night, I believe, and 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:06.440 then a much of cabinet secrety meetings and then back 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:08.320 to Sloton Valley on Thursday night. 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:13.040 But I mean, the balance of your time is it? Well, 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:15.200 clearly it's a lot. But is it still the case 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:17.200 as you said a while ago, that it's about one 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:21.080 to two days a week on your government work. Yeah, 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:26.320 that's correct, And what does that mean for your corporate life? 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:30.160 Because if we start with Tesla, the company has suffered 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:34.840 in recent months what you've called blowback. So what is 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.760 your plan for turning that around? The declining sales picture? 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.840 And by what stage do you think you're going to 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:43.000 be able to turn it around? 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:45.400 Oh, it's already to turn around. 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:49.959 Give me some evidence for that. I've just been looking 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:54.119 at the sales figures for Europe in April, which show 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:56.560 very significant declines in the big markets. 0:02:58.160 --> 0:02:59.360 Europe is our weakest market. 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:04.920 We're stronger everywhere else, so our sales are doing doing 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:05.560 well at this point. 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.799 We don't anticipate any any meaningful sales shortfall. 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:17.400 And the you know, the obviously the stock market recognizes 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:19.720 that since we're now back over a trillion dollars in 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:24.040 market cap, so really the market is aware of the situation. 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:25.840 So it's it's already turned around. 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:28.360 But sales still down compared to this time last year. 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:30.440 In Europe. 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:32.480 In Europe, okay, and. 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:38.520 Yes, but that's that's true of all manufacturers, there's no exceptions. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.280 Does that mean that you're not going to be able? 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.000 Does that mean you're it's quite weak? 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.720 Okay, but you would acknowledge. Woudn't you that what you 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:50.640 are facing. Okay, let's just take it as Europe what 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.120 you are facing is a significant problem. This Tesla is 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:57.320 an incredibly aspirational brand. People identified with it. It saw it, 0:03:57.960 --> 0:03:59.880 They saw it it being at the forefront of the climate. 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:03.000 And now people are driving around with stickers in their 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.920 cars saying I bought this before we knew Elon was crazy. 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:09.440 And there are also people who are by buying it 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:15.480 because Elon's crazy, or however they may view it. So, yes, 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:17.520 we've lost some sales, perhaps on the left, but we've 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.279 gained them on the right. The sales numbers at this 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:24.400 point are strong and we've seen no problem with them 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.960 had so what I mean? You can just look at 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:31.560 the stock price if you want the best inside information. 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:38.480 The stock market analysts have that, and our stock wouldn't 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:42.520 be trading near all time ice if it was not. 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:45.560 If things weren't in good shape. They're fine, don't worry 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:45.919 about it. 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:49.280 Okay, I was citing sales figures rather than share price. Well, 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.919 tell me then, how committed you are to Tesla. Do 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.640 you see yourself and now you committed to still being 0:04:55.640 --> 0:05:01.320 the chief executive of Tesla in five years time. Yes, 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:03.520 no doubt about that at all. 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:11.600 Well, no, I might die. 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:12.159 Okay, sure to that. 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:15.120 Let me see you if I'm dead. So the slighter mode. 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:19.720 Does that mean that the value of your pay doesn't 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:21.839 have any bearing on your decision? 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:30.760 Well, that's not really subject discussion in this forum. The 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:36.960 I think, obviously there should be a conversation for if 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.920 there's something incredible is done, that compensation should match. 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:43.400 That something incredible was done. 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:50.599 But I'm confident that whatever the whatever some activists posing 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:53.320 as a judge in Delaware happens to do will not 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:54.560 affect the future compensation. 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.200 This is the judge you twice struck down the fifty 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.920 six billion a pay package that was that was awarded 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:04.919 to you. I think the value on the basis on 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:06.880 the current value of stock options. 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:09.279 Yeah, not a judge, not a judge. 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:12.159 The activist who is cars playing a judge in a 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:13.000 Halloween costume. 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:18.800 Okay, that's your characterization. I think the value on the 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:20.520 current value of stock options. 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:24.000 I think the actual justice according to the law, on the. 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.200 Current value of stock options. I think the value of 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.080 that pay package stands at about one hundred billion dollars. 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.840 Are you saying you are relaxed about the value of 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.280 your future pay package. Your decision to be committed to 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.240 Tesla for the next five years as long as you 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.480 are still with us on this planet is completely independent 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:49.000 of pay. No, it's not independent, So pay is a 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.000 relevant factor then to your commitment to Tesla. 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:58.040 A sufficient voting control such that I cannot be ousted 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.720 by activists investors is what matter to me. And I've 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.760 said this publicly many times, but let's not have this 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:06.480 whole thing be a discussion of my list pay. 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.400 It's not a money thing. It's a reasonable. 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.520 Control thing over the future of the company, especially for 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:15.800 building millions, potentially billions of humanoid robots. I can't be 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.640 sitting there and weren't going. 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:22.280 To get tossed out by for political reasons by activists. 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:25.480 That will be unacceptable. That's all that matters. Now, let's 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:25.800 move on. 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:32.440 Okay, Well, just one question, well one question before we 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:34.880 move on to other companies, which is that I wonder 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:37.800 if some of what you've has happened to Tesla in 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.520 the last few months, did you take it personally? 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:42.440 Yes? 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.880 And did it make you regret any of you all 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:59.760 think twice about your political endeavors because it is I. 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:05.640 Did what needed to be done, the violent antibody reaction, 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:10.280 and I'm not someone who's ever committed violence, and yet 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.480 massive violence was committed against my companies, massive violence was 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:16.400 threatened against me. 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:22.840 Who are these people? Why would they do that? How 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:23.600 wrong can they be? 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.239 They're on the wrong on the wrong side of history, 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.600 and that's an evil thing to do to go and 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:35.640 damage some point intocent person's car, to threaten to kill me. 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.800 What's wrong with these people? I have not harmed anyone, 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:46.000 So something needs to be done about them, and a 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:48.800 number of them are going to prison and they deserve it. 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:55.160 You're well, you're referring to the attacks on Tesla's showrooms, 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:56.560 but I think. 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:01.800 Well, it's into showrooms and burning down cause unacceptable. Those 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.080 people will go to prison, and the people that funded 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.240 them and organized them will also go to prison. 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:17.040 Don't worry, wouldn't you wouldn't you wouldn't wouldn't you acknowledge 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.000 that some of the people who turned against Tesla in 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:24.319 Europe were were upset at your politics, and very few 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.360 of them would have been violent in any way. They 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.960 just objected to what they saw you say or do politically. 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:35.560 Well, it's certainly fine to object to political things, but 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.800 it's not it's not fine to resort to violence and 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:45.439 hanging someone in effigy and death threats. That's obviously not okay. 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:50.760 You know, that's absurd. That is in no way justifiable 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.920 at all in any way, shape or form. And some 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.400 of the the legacy media and nonetheless have sort of 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.800 justified which is unconscionable. Shame on them. 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:03.720 After the break, my colleague Michelle Hussein's interview with Elon 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.440 Musk continues. He talks about his long standing feud with 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.720 Open AI and its CEO Sam Altman, and his track 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:22.280 record on calling for more AI regulation. You're listening to 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:26.520 Bloomberg's Michelle Hussein interview Elon Musk at the Qatar Economic Forum. 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:30.679 Let's talk about your other companies, then another business area, SpaceX. 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:32.640 I saw that you said in a speech at the 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:37.280 West Point Military Academy recently that the future of warfare 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:42.280 is AI and drones, and obviously defense is an increasingly 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.760 booming sector with the state of the world at the moment. 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.080 Do you see SpaceX moving into weaponized drones? 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.959 Yeah, so, as they ask interesting questions that are impossible 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:08.400 to answer, so SpaceX is is. 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:11.559 The space launch leader. So SpaceX doesn't do drones. 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:21.240 SpaceX builds rockets, satellites, and Internet terminals, so SpaceX has 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:26.439 a very dominant position in space launch. So of the 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:30.199 mass launch to orbit this year, SpaceX will probably do, 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:37.280 China will do the remain half of the remaining amounts 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:38.920 of five percent, and the rest of the world, including 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:40.560 the rest of the US, will do about five percent. 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:42.840 So SpaceX will do about ten times as much as. 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:44.400 The rest of the world combined, or twenty times as 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:46.400 much as China, which is in China is doing actually 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.319 a very impressive job. The reason for this is that 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.040 we're putting it into orbit the largest satellite constellation the 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.160 world has ever seen by far, so I think at 0:11:56.160 --> 0:12:01.520 this point about maybe approaching eighty stable active satellites in 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.520 orbit our SpaceX and they're providing high high vand with 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:09.280 global connectivity throughout the world. In fact, this connection is 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:13.079 on a SpaceX connection. So I think this is a 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.640 very good thing because it means that we can provide 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.880 low cost my bandwidth Internet to parts of the world. 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:21.360 That don't have it or it's very expensive. 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:24.200 And I think the single biggest thing you can do 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.240 to lift people out of poverty and help them is 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:30.959 giving them an Internet connection, because once you have the 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:32.040 internet connection, you can. 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.439 Learn anything for free on the Internet, and you. 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.400 Can also sell your goods and services to the global market. 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:43.959 And once you have knowledge by the Internet and the 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:49.000 ability to engage in commerce, that this is going to 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:52.320 greatly improve quality of life for people throughout the world. 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:53.200 And it has. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:56.360 And I'd just like to think anyone in the audience 0:12:56.400 --> 0:13:00.560 who may have been helpful, and you know, we're starlink 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.240 and getting it to approved in the country, and I 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:04.640 think it's doing a lot of good in the countries 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:06.480 that have approved, which is I think this point one 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:10.040 hundred and thirty countries are very happy with it. I 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.480 don't currently into spate space actually getting into the weapons business. 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.120 That's certainly that's not an aspiration. We're frequent we're frequently 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.320 asked to do to do weapons programs, but we have 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:21.120 dost part a client. 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:27.520 Do you envisage SpaceX or indeed starlink as a separate 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:32.000 entity publicly listing in the near future or at all. 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.640 It's possible that starlink may go public at some point 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.520 in the future, and what would be. 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.600 The what would be the time frame, what kind of 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:46.640 time frame you consider it. 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:48.800 I mean no rush, I mean no rush to your public. 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:55.040 The public is I guess a way to you know, 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.600 potentially make more money, but at the expense of a 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.920 lot of public company overhead and inevitably. 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.000 A whole bunch of lawsuits which are very annoying. 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:07.640 So there's really something needs to be done about the 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:12.200 share shareholder shareholder derivative lawsuits in the US because it 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:18.800 allows plaintiffs law firms who don't represent the shareholders to 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.640 pretend that they represent the shareholders by getting a puppet 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.040 plaintiff for a few shares to initiate a massive lawsuit 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.920 against the company, and the irony being that extreme irony 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.920 that even if the class they purport to represent were 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.600 to vote that they don't want the lawsuit, the lawsuit 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:36.680 will still continue. 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:38.200 So how can it be. 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.200 A class action representing a class if the class were 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.160 against it? And that's the bizarre situation we've got in 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:48.920 the US that needs a dire ney to reform. As 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.560 anyone's running a public company, you've experienced this, It's an 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:53.200 absurd situation that needs to change. 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:56.080 Well, do you think Donald Trump might change it. You've 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.720 certainly got his ear. I imagine that you've put this 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.040 to him. Is this something you're trying to change before 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:03.720 any starlink. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:08.880 IPO, Well, we need a law to be passed. 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:15.360 The trouble being that Judeen sixty Senate Senate votes and 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:23.440 the Democrats will vote against it. The plaintiffs bar is 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:27.960 I believe, the second largest contributor to the Democratic Party. 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.320 That's the that's the issue. At the state level, this 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:35.040 can be solved, and I should say Texas recently passed 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:39.760 a law which at least the state level made a 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.280 class action lawsuits much more reasonable because you have to 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.800 get at least one in thirty three shareholders to agree 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:49.000 that they are part of a class of shareholders three percent. 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.560 This is will be really helped with privileged lawsuits. 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:55.120 OK. 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.880 Let's talk about AI, which is in so many of 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:04.360 you businesses and in all our worlds in different ways. 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.520 It's one of the big changes the development of generative AI. 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:12.200 Since you last spoke to this forum three years ago, 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.040 you're in this space of course with GROP which almost 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.440 everyone will know. You co founded open ai and then left, 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:22.360 and you've obviously got a legal battle with open ai 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:24.680 and Sam Altman. I wonder if you could say something 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.800 about the status of that, because you were together in 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.720 Saudi Arabia with the president last week with Sam Altman 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:34.720 in the same place at the same. 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.040 Time in the neighborhood. 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:41.160 Okay, So does that mean you are pushing ahead with 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:42.840 the lawsuit against open Ai. 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:49.520 Yes. So I came up with the name open ai 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:53.760 as an open source and as a nonprofit, and I 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:59.120 founded ai opening app for the first roughly fifty million dollars, 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:04.560 and it was intended to be a nonprofit, open source company, 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.239 and now is they're trying to change that for their 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:12.000 own financial benefit into a for profit company that is 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.040 closed source. So this would be like, let's. 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:19.000 Say you you finded a nonprofit to help preserve the 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.520 Amazon rainforest, but instead of doing that, they became a 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:24.800 lumber company, chopped down the forest and sold the word. 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:27.359 You'd be like, wait a second, that's not what I founded. 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:29.600 That's opening Eye. 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.679 They've made some changes to their corporate instructure, though, haven't 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:37.000 they since in recognition of of what you've said. 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.639 And now that's just what they told the media. 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:48.640 Okay, part they have part they have partly walked back 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:52.560 their plan to restructure the business. I guess that's made 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:54.399 no difference to how you feel about it. So you 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:55.360 determined to see. 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:57.680 Them in court of course. 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:01.000 Okay, well that's said going to be one to watch. 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.560 I also wanted to ask you about AI and regulation 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.080 because when you were here last talking to John Mickelfwait, 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.600 you had some pretty strong words about the risk that 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:14.600 AI poses and you said that you really felt what 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:18.240 the US was missing was a federal AI regulator that 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:20.840 you know, something along lines of the Food and Drug 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.760 Administration or the Federal Aviation Administration. Now you're clearly now 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.720 in a zone where you're more you're more on the 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:31.479 cutting regulation side than wanting new regulators. So has your 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:33.919 view changed on the need for an AI regulator. 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.639 Well that I don't think there should be regulators. You 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.080 can think of regulators like referees on the on the 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:45.000 field in sports, there should be some number of referees, 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.080 but that you shouldn't have so many referees that you 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:48.640 can't kick the ball without hitting one. 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.000 So in many in most. 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.000 Fields in the US, the regulatory burden has grown over 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.600 time to the point where it's like having more referees 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:06.399 than players on the field. So and This is a 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.960 natural consequence of an extended period of prosperity. 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:12.520 It's very important to apro appreciate this. This has happened 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:13.280 throughout history. 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:15.840 When you have an extended period of prosperity with no 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:22.080 existential war, there's no there's no cleansing function for the 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:27.439 for unnecessary laws and regulations. So what happens is that 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:31.240 every year more laws and more regulations are pasted, because 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.399 you know, legislators are going to legislate, regulators are going 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:39.199 to regulate, and you will get the steady pile of 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:43.000 more and more laws and regulations of a time until 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.560 everything is illegal. And let me give you an example 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:51.920 of a truly absurd situation. Under the Biden administration, SpaceX 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:58.840 was sued for not hiring asylum seekers in the US. Now, 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.520 the problem is, it's actually illegal for SpaceX under itart 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:06.200 in National Traffic and Arms Regulations to hire anyone who 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:08.920 is not a permanent resident of the United States, because 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:11.960 the premise being that they will take advanced rocket technology 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:13.879 and return to their home country if they're not a 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:14.600 permanent resident. 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.399 So we're simultaneously. 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.720 In a situation where it's illegal to hire slams used 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:25.920 and is also illegal to hire asylum seekers, and the 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:30.439 Partner of Justice chose to prosecute us despite both paths 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:31.160 being illegal. 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:33.320 Down if you do, down if you don't. 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.000 But my question was specifically about a regulator for AI, 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.280 which you said three years ago was needed, and you 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.320 said we need to be proactive on the regulation of 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:46.760 AI rather than reactive. Have you changed your mind on that? 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.399 No, of course not. What No, of course not. What 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.520 I'm saying is that there should be some referees on 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.800 the field, a few referees, but you shouldn't have a 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.480 field jam packed with referees such so you could not 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.040 kick a ball in any direction without hitting one. So 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.040 the the fields that have been around for a long time, 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:13.200 such as automotive, so aerospace, you know if the sort 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:17.880 of food and drug industries are overregulated, but the new 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:22.600 fields like artificial intelligence are underregulated. In fact, there is 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:24.120 no regulator at all. 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:26.080 So they should be. Do you still think that. 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:29.960 Yes, I'm simply saying, which I think is just basic 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:32.679 common sense that you that you want to have at 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:35.000 least you want to have a few referees in the field. 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:38.520 You don't want to have an army of referees. But 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.159 you want to have a few referees on any given field, 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:45.240 in any given sport, or even any given arena, industrial arena, 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:50.040 to ensure help that public safety is taken care of. 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.840 But you don't have so there's an't, there's an't, there's 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:57.119 a proper number of referees. Like I said, it's actually 0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:00.440 very easy to visualize this when compared to sports. If 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.760 the whole field is packed with referees, that would look absurd. 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.120 But if there were no referees at all, your game 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:08.080 is not going to be as good. 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:13.920 Okay, So let's then talk about your new world, your 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:18.640 role advising government. You are in this unique and unprecedented 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:22.159 position of having billions of dollars worth of contracts with 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:25.920 the federal government yourself, mostly through SpaceX, and also now 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:29.720 an insider's knowledge of it because of dose. Can you 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:34.080 see that there is a conflict of interest or a 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:36.840 potential conflict of interest in broad terms just through that 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:37.560 very fact? 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:40.920 I don't think so. 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:45.560 Actually, there have been many advisors throughout history and the 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:49.760 US government and others who have had economic interests, and 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:54.119 I absolutely an advisor. I don't have a formal power, 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.800 and that's a president can choose. 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:01.359 To accept my advice or not. And that's that's how 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:01.720 it goes. 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:05.399 If there's a single contract that of my companies that 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:11.520 have received that people think is somehow not was awarded improperly, 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:16.240 it would immediately be front page news, to say the least. 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:20.399 And if I hadn't mentioned it, certainly my competitors would. 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:22.960 So if you're not seeing that, then the clill is 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:24.280 not a complex to interest. 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:28.879 The Yeah, there's another way though to look at it. 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:32.680 That For example, you have many competitors, whether it's companies 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:35.200 like Boeing or companies would like to do more of 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:37.359 the kind of work you do for NASA Blue Origin 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:43.680 Rocket Lab. And because DOGE is in every federal government department, 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:48.840 you or people who work for DOGE and you are 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:53.560 the driving force behind it, have an insight into those companies' 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:56.800 affairs and those companies' relationships with the federal government. 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:03.760 Now, all we do as we review the organization to 0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:06.000