Speaker 1: I won't let my body out be outwell everything that
Speaker 1: I'm made dope, won't spend my life trying to change.
Speaker 1: I'm learning to love who I am. I get I'm strong,
Speaker 1: I feel free, I know who every part of me.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful and now will always out way if you
Speaker 1: feel it with yours in the air, She'll love to
Speaker 1: the poop there. Let's say good day and did you
Speaker 1: and die out? Happy Saturday. Outweigh fam Amy here and
Speaker 1: I got a little treat for you today and it
Speaker 1: is our o G interview with Cat Defata from Outweigh
Speaker 1: before Outweigh was even its own podcast. So Lisa is
Speaker 1: on maternity leave and I was thinking the other day
Speaker 1: how Cat is such a big part of our lives
Speaker 1: now and Lisa too for that matter, and kind of
Speaker 1: just cool how things work out and you meet people
Speaker 1: because I met Lisa on Instagram because she had her
Speaker 1: program Fork the Noise, which was a instrumental piece to
Speaker 1: my recovery puzzle. I had struggled with eating disorders and
Speaker 1: disordered eating patterns and habits since I was a teenager,
Speaker 1: and Lisa was a big, big reason why I finally
Speaker 1: had some lightbulbs go off because I was so in
Speaker 1: deep with a lot of disordered behaviors that I actually
Speaker 1: thought they were healthy. I didn't realize they were disordered.
Speaker 1: And again the lightbulb kind of went off when I
Speaker 1: was doing some of Lisa's fork the Noise Curriculum, and
Speaker 1: it all started to make sense and I had to
Speaker 1: unlearn a lot and rewire my brain. I had already
Speaker 1: been in the process of that after reading the book
Speaker 1: Brain over Binge, because ben Jing was one of my behaviors.
Speaker 1: But Lisa really helped me, and from that I thought
Speaker 1: I had this idea for the Outwegh podcast, and then
Speaker 1: we knew we were going to do a four part
Speaker 1: series that would live on my fourth Things podcast, Four
Speaker 1: Things with Amy Brown, and that's it. It was gonna
Speaker 1: be a four part series, four Saturdays. We'd release an
Speaker 1: episode for like the month, and we'd be good to
Speaker 1: go call it a day. Well, it ended up going
Speaker 1: so well that we were like, Okay, this is so cool.
Speaker 1: Outweigh can be its own podcast and it's a passion
Speaker 1: of ours, Like it's not something we were like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is something where we can have a podcast and
Speaker 1: make money off of it and different things. No, like
Speaker 1: if we never made a dime from Outweigh, It would
Speaker 1: be amazing because we were able to share so much
Speaker 1: of our stories and get other people on, so that
Speaker 1: you out there, if you happen to be dealing with
Speaker 1: any of this on any given day, you can pull
Speaker 1: up a podcast and know that you're not alone. And
Speaker 1: I've been able to do that with other podcasts that
Speaker 1: don't have anything to do with eating disorders. Sometimes I
Speaker 1: don't even know how you found that way. Are you
Speaker 1: an original listener? Were you searching up eating disorders and
Speaker 1: our recovery or disordered eating and an outweigh came up
Speaker 1: as an option, And if so, welcome, And I hope
Speaker 1: that this is a good resource, a good tool for
Speaker 1: you to have in your back pocket if you happen
Speaker 1: to be going through some things as you're navigating towards
Speaker 1: recovery or you're trying to stay in recovery or whatever
Speaker 1: that looks like for you. With other things I've had
Speaker 1: in life that don't have anything to do with this,
Speaker 1: I've searched up podcasts and found some amazing help that way.
Speaker 1: And I don't even know who these podcasters are. Sometimes
Speaker 1: the guests that they're having on but what they had
Speaker 1: to say met me where I was at that moment,
Speaker 1: and it was exactly what I needed. And suddenly I
Speaker 1: knew it wasn't so isolating. I wasn't alone. So I
Speaker 1: want you to know that's why we started out Wigh,
Speaker 1: And in the beginning, we didn't know Cat Defata, And
Speaker 1: now she's a big part of that WAG. She has
Speaker 1: her own podcast on our network called You Need Therapy.
Speaker 1: She now co hosts the fifth thing of my podcast
Speaker 1: with me called the Amy and Cat Chat. So she's
Speaker 1: a big part of our podcasting world now. And we
Speaker 1: wouldn't have met her if Lisa and I hadn't decided
Speaker 1: to do Outweigh, And it's so cool that got to
Speaker 1: meet her. Because of that. Lisa flew to Nashville from
Speaker 1: New York to record for two days straight and we
Speaker 1: booked a lot of interviews and had all kinds of
Speaker 1: things ready to go so that we could just knock
Speaker 1: it all out in two days and then get everything
Speaker 1: edited and loaded up and put it up on the
Speaker 1: podcast for an April release. And so it was March,
Speaker 1: right before COVID we were recording all this. We had
Speaker 1: no idea that COVID was even coming and was going
Speaker 1: to rock our world and change our lives wherever. But
Speaker 1: we were at the Bobby Bones Show studio recording and
Speaker 1: Cat happens to have an office nearby, and she had
Speaker 1: emailed us saying that she would love to come on
Speaker 1: as an expert since she's a licensed therapist that specializes
Speaker 1: and eating disorders. And she walked on over to the
Speaker 1: studios and she recorded with us, and it was so cool,
Speaker 1: and I remember thinking like, Oh, I just love the
Speaker 1: way this girl puts stuff and she makes it easy
Speaker 1: to understand and she's not intimidating at all, but she's
Speaker 1: so smart. And she too has had an eating disorder
Speaker 1: as well, and then now she's trying to help people
Speaker 1: through it by specializing in it and working with her
Speaker 1: clients on it, and then yeah, making it a main
Speaker 1: feature of her podcast. And she's just awesome. So I thought,
Speaker 1: what a cool thing to do, maybe because we might
Speaker 1: have new listeners have never heard the O G Outweigh episodes,
Speaker 1: Let's play Cat's original interview with Lisa and myself. So
Speaker 1: that's what we're gonna do right now, the O G
Speaker 1: Cat Defata interview that we did, and in case you
Speaker 1: are new. I just want to say the reason why
Speaker 1: this podcast is called Outweigh is because a life without
Speaker 1: disordered eating outweighs everything. And I hope if you're not
Speaker 1: to a place where you truly believe that that one
Speaker 1: day you will get there, because it is so true,
Speaker 1: a life without disordered eating outweighs everything. And for so long,
Speaker 1: for so many years of my life, I prioritized food
Speaker 1: and obsessing over food and exercise and avoiding social gatherings
Speaker 1: because of food. I was prioritizing everything else, and my
Speaker 1: relationship suffered, and memories that I have I suffered my
Speaker 1: anxiety around food. I mean, I was definitely suffering. So
Speaker 1: just know that you're not alone, and that once you
Speaker 1: can get to a point of truly believing that a
Speaker 1: life without all this junk will outweigh everything, it'll be awesome.
Speaker 1: And there is hope because if I can do it,
Speaker 1: Lisa can do it, Cat can do it. I don't
Speaker 1: want to be cliche and say, well, then you can
Speaker 1: do it, because it's not easy and it will take
Speaker 1: hard work, but you can rewire your brain and you
Speaker 1: can get there, and my hope is that you do. So.
Speaker 1: Right now, we're going to play Cat's interview. Here you
Speaker 1: go enjoy. So we've got Katherine de Fata in the
Speaker 1: studio with us, So you're a guest that's actually here
Speaker 1: in person. A lot of our interviews have been over
Speaker 1: the phone just because of where people are in the country,
Speaker 1: but you're right here in Nashville with us, which is
Speaker 1: super cool. And you're a therapist here in town. But
Speaker 1: you specialize in eating disorders, and so I talked about
Speaker 1: it on the podcast and you listen to Four Things
Speaker 1: with Amy Brown, and you sent me a note and
Speaker 1: said that if you could be a part of it,
Speaker 1: just like you know, and we started emailing back and forth,
Speaker 1: and I was like, yes, can you come to the
Speaker 1: studio and and let's record some stuff. So just before
Speaker 1: we hit record, we were having an off air conversation
Speaker 1: about eating disorder being an addiction and when I'm trying
Speaker 1: to talk to my husband about it, or when I
Speaker 1: was eating a lot and I just felt like I
Speaker 1: couldn't stop, and he didn't understand. I would say, and
Speaker 1: I don't know if I was right and how I
Speaker 1: was saying it at all, but to me it felt
Speaker 1: like I was like, I don't know, It's like an
Speaker 1: alcoholic can't stop drinking. I was like, but you can
Speaker 1: take alcohol out of your life and survive, Like with food,
Speaker 1: I can't eliminate food from my life because you need
Speaker 1: food to survive. I just remember that being like some
Speaker 1: language out thrown out. I'm sure I heard it somewhere,
Speaker 1: but that's I mean, that's comparing alcoholism is seen as
Speaker 1: as an addiction. So one of the things that you
Speaker 1: asked me was what's difference between self work and therapy
Speaker 1: with an actual therapist? And I thought about it, and
Speaker 1: I actually like, I had a different answer, and then
Speaker 1: I was like, that's not right. The difference is the relationship,
Speaker 1: and the relationship between a therapist and a client is
Speaker 1: like the number one predictor of if it's going to
Speaker 1: be successful, Like if you hate your therapist, you probably
Speaker 1: won't get a lot done. So that goes into just
Speaker 1: attachment theory and what that means. And do you guys
Speaker 1: know what that is. No. Attachment theory comes from this guy.
Speaker 1: His name is John Bowlby, and he was doing research
Speaker 1: in orphanages and he was noticing that like these babies
Speaker 1: that were getting everything that they needed like shelter, food, water,
Speaker 1: they were dying or they're getting really really sick, but
Speaker 1: there's no reason for it except they weren't being touched,
Speaker 1: so there's no touch at all, which is crazy. And
Speaker 1: what he came up was that a relationship is necessary
Speaker 1: to survive. He did a lot of research and there's
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that I won't go into because
Speaker 1: it might be a little bit boring, but he came
Speaker 1: up with these three attachment styles, secure, anxious, avoidant, And
Speaker 1: we get those attachment styles based on the relationships we
Speaker 1: usually have with our primary caregiver. So if I have
Speaker 1: a really great, loving environment and all my needs are
Speaker 1: met all the time, I'm going to have a secure attachment.
Speaker 1: But and that's the majority of people, But also I
Speaker 1: see it on a spectrum to the majority of people
Speaker 1: do have a sect relationship. Yeah, that's what they say
Speaker 1: in the research, but also doing air quotes and they
Speaker 1: can't see that's what they say. However, I think really
Speaker 1: people are on a spectrum with this. So and then
Speaker 1: anxious attachment would be when sometimes your needs are being met,
Speaker 1: sometimes they're not, and so you don't know whether to
Speaker 1: trust or not to trust. And then avoidant is when
Speaker 1: your needs aren't really being met, and so you kind
Speaker 1: of developed this idea of like I gotta go do
Speaker 1: everything on my own, Like I gotta go figure everything
Speaker 1: on my own. Okay, I'm gonna interject just a second,
Speaker 1: because I do have two adopted children from Haiti, and
Speaker 1: some people may know that, some people may not depending
Speaker 1: on what they've listened to. And I had not heard
Speaker 1: and described as attachment theory, but I know that my
Speaker 1: kids and I've witnessed it. They have attachment disorder, yes, okay,
Speaker 1: and the lack of stimulation that my son had, I
Speaker 1: now see how it comes out in certain times, like
Speaker 1: how he responds and reacts, and then even my daughter,
Speaker 1: this is just is this even the same thing? Okay?
Speaker 1: So I'm just making sure on the same page because
Speaker 1: I also want to be aware of, like now that
Speaker 1: i'm their primary caregiver, that I'm focused on whatever they're
Speaker 1: going to need from me. But there's already walls built,
Speaker 1: there's already My daughter came here at ten, she's twelve now,
Speaker 1: but day one from her arrival was resistance. I can
Speaker 1: handle this on my own. I don't need you should
Speaker 1: basically give us the heisman anytime. I mean, it's been
Speaker 1: two years of breaking it down and we're finally getting there,
Speaker 1: but they're still testing, like I don't really trust you.
Speaker 1: Are you going to really love me? What about if
Speaker 1: I do this, You're still gonna love me? What if
Speaker 1: I Okay, I'm gonna try this out. And so my
Speaker 1: husband and I just have to remain consistent and so Yes,
Speaker 1: at first when you talked about attachment theory, was like, no,
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about them, Like, way
Speaker 1: does I get I do know this, but I'm also
Speaker 1: trying to think of my childhood and how it was
Speaker 1: with my So think about this. You've talked about your
Speaker 1: own like issues with food and disordered eating, all that
Speaker 1: I have that to think about as I explain this
Speaker 1: kind of where your story pops up. Also, this is
Speaker 1: going to be helpful because you're probably doing the things
Speaker 1: you need to do with your children without even knowing
Speaker 1: that you're doing them, just because you're a good caring person,
Speaker 1: So you can develop a certain attachment style. Good news
Speaker 1: is it's not static. It's fluid. So going back to
Speaker 1: just describing this and how it relates to what we
Speaker 1: were talking about in the beginning, is people develop these
Speaker 1: attachments and they're all based on feeling like loved, like
Speaker 1: you belong and so I have developed my own theory
Speaker 1: that we all are born with these two desires to
Speaker 1: be ourselves and then to have love and belonging, and
Speaker 1: throughout our lives the desire for love and belonging becomes
Speaker 1: very very, very very strong, and so we drop parts
Speaker 1: of ourselves or pick parts of ourselves or pick things
Speaker 1: up that aren't really parts of ourselves to get that
Speaker 1: love and belonging. And so that's when the addiction comes in.
Speaker 1: I'll use an example from my life to explain this.
Speaker 1: So I never felt like I like really really really
Speaker 1: fit into or had like a thing, or we're special
Speaker 1: in certain parts of my friend groups, in certain areas
Speaker 1: in my family, and so I started to do things
Speaker 1: to get me attention. I attributed that attention to love, right,
Speaker 1: I always say, like, any attention is good attention. So,
Speaker 1: going back to what you said, what's the difference between
Speaker 1: therapy and self work is a therapist is what we
Speaker 1: call a secure base, which helps somebody develop a secure
Speaker 1: attachment style. Because somebody's going to come into my office
Speaker 1: probably not knowing that they have any of this or
Speaker 1: any kind of drama I'm going to be that person.
Speaker 1: Like you're explaining with your daughter, what if I do this,
Speaker 1: you still love me? What if I yell at you?
Speaker 1: Can I still come back? What if I miss a session?
Speaker 1: What if I tell you that you're wrong? What if
Speaker 1: I disagree with you? Um? What if I act out?
Speaker 1: What if I really laps in what you told me
Speaker 1: not to do? Are you still going to let me
Speaker 1: come back in? And the answer is always yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: with safe boundaries, and it helps them learn that like, hey,
Speaker 1: I don't have to be a certain way. I can
Speaker 1: show up as I am and like I can find love.
Speaker 1: So when you say you were doing things to get attention,
Speaker 1: what were those things? So it depends on which part
Speaker 1: of my life. Well, let's go ahead and talk about
Speaker 1: the eaty So in college, Yeah, it's easy for me
Speaker 1: to talk about this. Now, I didn't know that this
Speaker 1: was happening, no clue, which most people don't. But I
Speaker 1: started with a diet, counting calories. And again in my family,
Speaker 1: all my siblings went and played dan one sports and
Speaker 1: I just went to college. And so I felt like
Speaker 1: I was missing something because didn't have anything that my
Speaker 1: parents would really brag that much about no fault to them,
Speaker 1: my parents are great. And so I went on this diet,
Speaker 1: started losing all this weight. I was getting tons of attention,
Speaker 1: like tons, you look so good this this whatever. Guys
Speaker 1: like started talking to me more. And so I attribute
Speaker 1: that to that of like, Okay, now I fit and
Speaker 1: now I belong belonging as love, I'm good, And then
Speaker 1: I became a shell of a human. Tap into that
Speaker 1: a little bit more. What were you feeling at that time?
Speaker 1: Like what I mean, first, you're on the high. What
Speaker 1: does it mean to be a shell, because you're certainly
Speaker 1: not a shell today with the vibrants and your radiant ye.
Speaker 1: So just so that people, because really we're doing this
Speaker 1: so people don't feel alone. And I feel like with
Speaker 1: each person that's sharing part of their real story, which
Speaker 1: you just did, somebody's relating and they're like, wait, tell
Speaker 1: me more. I would say. People would always describe me
Speaker 1: as like loud and bubbly and like fun. I'm a
Speaker 1: seven on the Instagram, so that which I didn't know
Speaker 1: what the Instagram was back then. So that's how I
Speaker 1: always was. So when I started restricting my food, I
Speaker 1: ended up restricting every single part of my life because
Speaker 1: I couldn't go to that party because what if I
Speaker 1: drank alcohol and their scalaris and alcohol, and then what
Speaker 1: if I got drunk and then I wanted to eat
Speaker 1: something that I ate something I shouldn't eat that crippled me.
Speaker 1: Or I can't go to that that restaurant because I
Speaker 1: can't eat anything there. Then people are going to ask
Speaker 1: me like, why aren't you eating and I I don't have
Speaker 1: to come up with some excuse. Or I can't go
Speaker 1: to that thing at night because I have to get
Speaker 1: up and work out at six am and I need
Speaker 1: my energy. And so I started cutting things out of
Speaker 1: my life. I remember the start of my junior year
Speaker 1: of college. That summer junior to senior year, I like
Speaker 1: never left my parents house when I came home, and
Speaker 1: I never saw any of my friends from high school,
Speaker 1: which we were always very close. I remember I did
Speaker 1: one thing. I went to my best friend from high
Speaker 1: school's birthday party and then started at her house and
Speaker 1: they all went out. I think it might have been
Speaker 1: her twenty first birthday, and I went home after her
Speaker 1: house that everybody else went out, and I went home
Speaker 1: because I was like, I can't do that. So the
Speaker 1: thing that got me all this attention, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, then I was like, what's the point of
Speaker 1: the attention because I'm not letting myself engage with anybody.
Speaker 1: And then I came back that next year, my senior year,
Speaker 1: and I didn't do anything. I didn't I was in authority.
Speaker 1: I like would skip some of our date parties or
Speaker 1: I would go I remember one time I also was
Speaker 1: really into school. I like I went to a party.
Speaker 1: It was a swaps which one that you would like
Speaker 1: dress up like and where a costume, And I like
Speaker 1: loved doing that, and I like took my note cards
Speaker 1: to the bar and like study for my test. You
Speaker 1: just like withdrew and lost interest in all the things
Speaker 1: that you love to do. My friends did not love that.
Speaker 1: So that's a part where that's just part of your
Speaker 1: story of what you did to get attention to feel belonging.
Speaker 1: But then you realize, like it's kind of like it
Speaker 1: goes up, up up, and it's like this is where
Speaker 1: I'm getting belonging love, And then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: you just it's like we just I think it happened
Speaker 1: all of us, and you crash and burn because you
Speaker 1: realize you have nothing around you and what is this for?
Speaker 1: So then what do you do well? And I love
Speaker 1: looking back at this because I don't know you'all's experiences,
Speaker 1: but from my experience, I had no clue that I
Speaker 1: was struggling, so like, not a clue. I thought I
Speaker 1: was like on top of the world, like this actually
Speaker 1: makes me want to cry. But my senior year, I
Speaker 1: thought that I was killing it, like I had gotten
Speaker 1: into all these graduate programs. I was like, gonna go
Speaker 1: do all these things. And looking back, like another thing
Speaker 1: I did that I have so much grief over it
Speaker 1: is I skipped my last date party ever to come
Speaker 1: back to Nashville and run the half marathon. I can
Speaker 1: run that marathon whenever I want. I can never go
Speaker 1: back and have my last party with my best friends.
Speaker 1: I did not know that. I still was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd rather go run this marathon. This is my lifestyle.
Speaker 1: I'm healthy. I don't like to drink, almost like this
Speaker 1: grandiose sense of self healthy so us yea, And I
Speaker 1: probably I was a brat, yes, like because yeah, because
Speaker 1: I wouldn't judge what people are eating. You're going to
Speaker 1: eat that? And I'm like, in my head, I wish
Speaker 1: I could eat that, Like I wish I could eat that,
Speaker 1: but I have eating distor. As we talk a lot
Speaker 1: about how you have so much control, I had no control,
Speaker 1: right well, it was like not like I could eat that,
Speaker 1: Like wow, look at me, I have so much willpower
Speaker 1: for not eating. But I don't really think I did
Speaker 1: have willpower. Because I had willpower, I would eat a doughnut.
Speaker 1: But that's what people would say to me. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I wish I could be like Catherine, and like, you
Speaker 1: don't want to be like me. Yeah, I know, because
Speaker 1: they don't really know the struggle. That's why it's important,
Speaker 1: and we'll reiterate it now since it's kind of coming up.
Speaker 1: That's why it's important. You never know what's going on
Speaker 1: inside someone's body. You might think it's all they've got
Speaker 1: it all figured out and their life is together, and
Speaker 1: then you can reinforce their behavior by complimenting something about
Speaker 1: their body, and then that keeps them on that hamster
Speaker 1: wheel and really you have no idea you contributed to
Speaker 1: the problem just by giving the compliment. We've been trying
Speaker 1: to just get it into people and even myself over
Speaker 1: and over, to stop complimenting on people's bodies. There's so
Speaker 1: many other things that we could probably compliment that like
Speaker 1: do that's not necessary. It's kind of story quick. So
Speaker 1: this is why I started to look at before I
Speaker 1: really got into being like a eating disorder therapist. This
Speaker 1: is like, I have a shame about this now, but
Speaker 1: again I'm trying to not have that. I went to
Speaker 1: grad school, I went to Vanderbilt in Nashville, and thinking
Speaker 1: I was going to be eating disorder therapists, and guess
Speaker 1: what I wanted to specialize in. I wanted to work
Speaker 1: with specifically binge eating disorder and help them lose weight,
Speaker 1: which is not how you do. It's not okay. I
Speaker 1: could understand, not understand, not understanding. Yes, now I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, maybe explain why though that that wouldn't
Speaker 1: be Yeah, that may not hand it. Yeah, because I
Speaker 1: know more of that because I've been doing I've been
Speaker 1: working alongside people, like he said, where y'all understand why
Speaker 1: that would be bad, but someone else might not get why.
Speaker 1: That's probably not like the best thing. So it's not
Speaker 1: about the weight. And so with binge eating disorder, there's
Speaker 1: something else going on, and if I help them lose weight,
Speaker 1: their issues aren't going away like the reason that they're binging,
Speaker 1: which would be the reason why any of us do
Speaker 1: behavior that we would classify as an addiction. It's not
Speaker 1: about the alcohol, it's not about the food, it's not
Speaker 1: about any of that. It's about what's underneath of it.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, it might be a side effect that
Speaker 1: if these people do the work and I help them
Speaker 1: through whatever it is that they're trying to work through,
Speaker 1: they might lose weight. But that's not the goal because
Speaker 1: if I just take the weight away, everything else still
Speaker 1: And most people that are in it don't see it
Speaker 1: as a underlying problem, like they see it as either
Speaker 1: binge problem I can't stop when I eat, or they
Speaker 1: see it as a weight problem I'm overweight because I eat.
Speaker 1: Not going any deeper into why do you think that
Speaker 1: there's anything to the binging and it being like in
Speaker 1: the brain. We've touched on brain over binge, But there's
Speaker 1: there's obviously with what you're saying with the addiction at
Speaker 1: all coming back to attachment and love, right, So it's
Speaker 1: like all goes back to some of that in a way.
Speaker 1: But for me, I mean, I know that I had
Speaker 1: issues with my dad leaving when I was younger, um,
Speaker 1: but I know that I also was introduced to dieting
Speaker 1: at an extremely young age, and I know when I
Speaker 1: started dieting and then that led to restriction and binging.
Speaker 1: But I didn't really realize I was binging at the
Speaker 1: time because I didn't know really I was in high school.
Speaker 1: Then I knew I would over eat so that I
Speaker 1: would perge, but it wasn't all of the time. But
Speaker 1: I knew that it was wrong, even so that I
Speaker 1: went to my mom and said, I need help. I'm
Speaker 1: throwing up and I don't know where this came from
Speaker 1: or why, but I I need help with this. So
Speaker 1: then she got me into therapy, and then that led
Speaker 1: to therapy all through high school and college. But it
Speaker 1: was always just focused on my dad having left. Nothing
Speaker 1: ever resonated with me. And then I quit throwing up
Speaker 1: for years. But what I realized in there is I
Speaker 1: was still binging the whole time. But again I knew
Speaker 1: that it was not right because I was like, I
Speaker 1: just went to literally like four different fast food restaurants
Speaker 1: in like one stop, Like that's not normal. So or
Speaker 1: if I was on a road trip somewhere, I would
Speaker 1: stop at like multiple gas stations and like just eat
Speaker 1: the entire two hours. That was my drive from Austin
Speaker 1: to College Station, which is where I went to Texas
Speaker 1: a m. So I remember a lot of those road trips.
Speaker 1: Was I ate the entire time, whether it was a
Speaker 1: gas station sonic like, I had different stops and I
Speaker 1: would go through and be like okay, and then next
Speaker 1: day I would just do slim fast or something. But
Speaker 1: it never I was still in therapy at that point,
Speaker 1: and it never was getting anywhere other than somehow I
Speaker 1: stopped the throwing up and it was gone, but I
Speaker 1: kept the binging. And then when I read Brain over Binge,
Speaker 1: I've been telling Lisa like, it just made sense to me.
Speaker 1: She talks about rewiring your brain and that you just
Speaker 1: go to a binge and you have to start denying
Speaker 1: the binges. Because I started restricting at such a young age,
Speaker 1: it trained my brain that I didn't know when I
Speaker 1: was going to get food again, so it kept forcing
Speaker 1: me to over eat and then I would binge. And
Speaker 1: so I started implementing that over a year ago and
Speaker 1: that worked for me, and that was the first thing
Speaker 1: where it really made Since now I'm sure there's underlying
Speaker 1: issues with what's going on, but I do want to
Speaker 1: talk to you about how that worked for me. But
Speaker 1: about five years ago, when my mom died, even though
Speaker 1: I had not purged in twelve years, I had binged
Speaker 1: but not purged. The day after my mom died, I
Speaker 1: ate dinner and then I had to go throw it
Speaker 1: up and I literally and it was not an easy thing.
Speaker 1: It was my sister's birthday the day after my mom died,
Speaker 1: and in laws decided to get a food truck, and
Speaker 1: we have I mean otherwise, I mean there's food at
Speaker 1: the house everywhere, but we just were not eating. But
Speaker 1: then it was like my sister's birthday, so I felt
Speaker 1: like I had to eat from the food truck and
Speaker 1: I had to eat the cake. So I ate it
Speaker 1: and then something about me literally and there were so
Speaker 1: many people at my sister's house. I went over to
Speaker 1: a neighbor's guesthouse and I threw up in their bathroom.
Speaker 1: Like it wasn't easy for me to like make this happen.
Speaker 1: That somehow I was desperate to get that food out
Speaker 1: of my body and I hadn't even over eaten and
Speaker 1: that started it again, just like that. It was back
Speaker 1: and I probably it was a daily thing. Then it
Speaker 1: was like every other day. Then it was like and
Speaker 1: now sound now that you know you brought up that
Speaker 1: it's eating disorders can be addictions. It sounds like an
Speaker 1: alcoholic returning to alcohol. Yes, where all of a sudden
Speaker 1: you need that whatever and you go and find it
Speaker 1: and then okay, I'll just do it this one time,
Speaker 1: and then you slowly kind of trickle back into the
Speaker 1: same thing. Okay, but I don't even know that. I
Speaker 1: was like, I felt like it was an out of
Speaker 1: body experience what I was doing. I don't think I
Speaker 1: had the rational fashion now to be like, Okay, it's
Speaker 1: just gonna be this one time. I was just like,
Speaker 1: I did it, and then I was like, what was that?
Speaker 1: And I was so freaked out by it that just
Speaker 1: like I went to my mom in high school, I
Speaker 1: went to my husband almost immediately, and I'm like, here's
Speaker 1: the deal. You've been married to me, and if I
Speaker 1: haven't thrown up our entire marriage, so you don't know
Speaker 1: this side of me. But now I'm terrified and it's here,
Speaker 1: and I feel like an alcoholic that has just lost
Speaker 1: their chip. That's exactly what I said to him, and
Speaker 1: he was like, Okay, well we can do this, like
Speaker 1: whatever you need. And I would say there's a lot
Speaker 1: of times where after I mean, he would come home
Speaker 1: and he'd be like, how is your day? And I
Speaker 1: would be like, even a year after my mom died
Speaker 1: or two years, there would still be discussions how is
Speaker 1: your day? That's say, my day was fine except where
Speaker 1: I threw up, you know, and I would be able.
Speaker 1: I'm thankful for a relationship where I could be honest
Speaker 1: with him about that. But I still was so perplexed
Speaker 1: why it was happening. And now I've been over a
Speaker 1: year without anything binges or purges, so I feel that.
Speaker 1: But I have to share with you a revelation I
Speaker 1: had with Lisa. But I don't even know if it
Speaker 1: makes sense. And since you're a therapist, I'm gonna take advantage.
Speaker 1: I need to pay you for the hour I told Lisa,
Speaker 1: I said it, just did it. I went to therapy. Obviously.
Speaker 1: I did M d R after my mom died because
Speaker 1: it's very traumatic for me. She did not die. It
Speaker 1: was not easy. She had cancer. I saw a lot
Speaker 1: that I shouldn't see and laid with her in her
Speaker 1: final breath. Me and my sister both and then it
Speaker 1: is healthy or not. We probably laid with her for
Speaker 1: about an hour after that, the corner of people were like,
Speaker 1: we're here and to load her up, and we're like,
Speaker 1: we're not done yet, So you know, whatever that looks
Speaker 1: like for you, that's what we needed. But we definitely
Speaker 1: my SI and I both saw a lot and it
Speaker 1: was traumatic. And then you know, here I am the
Speaker 1: next day throwing up the food and I'm not knowing why,
Speaker 1: and I'm telling this to my therapist and she's like, well,
Speaker 1: that's trauma. And the last trauma you had in your
Speaker 1: life was when your dad left, and that was when
Speaker 1: you're younger, eating disorder kind of started. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: not exactly, but I just couldn't wrap my head around
Speaker 1: the fact that like that would just make me do it.
Speaker 1: But then I had this thought because I think something
Speaker 1: Lisa talked about or somebody talked about that like I
Speaker 1: really felt because I was grieving, and this also could
Speaker 1: be related to attention, since you said then and this
Speaker 1: is just me having to get completely honest and almost
Speaker 1: like embarrassed that, like what because it's not like it
Speaker 1: was a very conscious thought out decision like oh, I
Speaker 1: need attention, so this is what I'm gonna do. This
Speaker 1: is almost like five years later and just having to
Speaker 1: look back and be like, oh, yuck, was that really
Speaker 1: what this was? Because what makes sense to me now
Speaker 1: is that I felt like I was grieving, and if
Speaker 1: you're grieving, you're supposed to lose weight. If you're grieving,
Speaker 1: you're not supposed to have food because you're sad, and
Speaker 1: sad people don't eat, and sad people get skinny. And
Speaker 1: if I get skinny, I get attention, which is exactly
Speaker 1: what happened. I mean, there was not a single person
Speaker 1: in my life that did not comment on my body,
Speaker 1: Like about a month after my mom died, because I
Speaker 1: did get very thin, and I would weigh myself every
Speaker 1: single day. I would drink juice in the morning, urge whatever.
Speaker 1: I would do yoga twice a day. Also, I was
Speaker 1: trying to keep busy to not think about my mom.
Speaker 1: I would do wine and zan X for bed, so
Speaker 1: would knock me out and I wouldn't think about food
Speaker 1: and I but nobody knew this was happening to me.
Speaker 1: But I would still come to work the next day
Speaker 1: and someone from would be visiting from you know, another
Speaker 1: city that hadn't seen me in awhile and be like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, Amy, it looks so good. And then
Speaker 1: I'd be like thank you. And then but I'd be like, yes,
Speaker 1: I'm grieving. I'm doing a good job grieving. I'm doing
Speaker 1: a good job grieving because I lost my mom and
Speaker 1: I needed to recognize that I'm sad. My skinny represents
Speaker 1: my sadness and that gives me attention. Yeah, it sounds
Speaker 1: very twisted and messed up to say out loud, I
Speaker 1: underveel that makes more sense to me than when the
Speaker 1: therapist told me she thought like a trauma capsule open
Speaker 1: to my head. And because that's how I dealt with
Speaker 1: my dad leaving, that's immediately the route my my brain
Speaker 1: was going to go to deal with losing my mom.
Speaker 1: And I just don't know that that makes sense to me.
Speaker 1: Thank you for share that. I think your therapist could
Speaker 1: be right there. Part of it could be this is
Speaker 1: the thing with therapy, and like me, there's no just
Speaker 1: like one way. So that's why I mean, eating disorders
Speaker 1: and addiction in general is hard because I can't just
Speaker 1: say it's every time because of this, A lot of
Speaker 1: times it's because of this, there could have been the
Speaker 1: trauma part, but I think what you're talking about it's
Speaker 1: probably attached to your trauma of not getting the attention
Speaker 1: to the love and the belonging from your dad. And
Speaker 1: then now this is like your mom, Like you're a
Speaker 1: secure base, right, your person, and then she's gone, and
Speaker 1: then like who's my person? And who's gonna recognize or
Speaker 1: who's gonna know what I need or who's gonna All
Speaker 1: of that comes up of like you lost your secure base?
Speaker 1: So what do I do? You're sad? Right? Part of
Speaker 1: it is I hear you saying like I want people
Speaker 1: to my sadness. I think part of it also is
Speaker 1: like I don't want to feel sad either, and so
Speaker 1: what can I do to shove down all these feelings?
Speaker 1: Because it feels good when I'm doing this. It's twisted
Speaker 1: as it is, like it feels good to perch, it
Speaker 1: feels good to go on a run for two hours,
Speaker 1: it feels for a period of time it feels it
Speaker 1: doesn't Yeah, yeah, until it doesn't. And at the beginning, yes,
Speaker 1: it was like this high and this ride, and until
Speaker 1: it got messy and it was just exhausting and it
Speaker 1: was like I can't keep up, or if I would
Speaker 1: try to throw up and it didn't work and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh my gosh, I just ate all that food,
Speaker 1: like and it's not coming up like it was. Just
Speaker 1: tell me about like the embarrassment of like, this is
Speaker 1: so messed up. I feel embarrassed that this is what
Speaker 1: I did. I think because I could be wrong in this,
Speaker 1: but if we're for the sake of our conversation of
Speaker 1: viewing eating disorder as an addiction and alcoholism addiction, I
Speaker 1: feel like, for lack of a better word, being addicted
Speaker 1: to okaine or alcohol is a little more sexy. I
Speaker 1: don't know it's the right word. First sake of this,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say, binging a bunch of food and
Speaker 1: then throwing it up for whatever the reason is is
Speaker 1: disgusting to me. I'm never I don't look at and
Speaker 1: it could just be me thinking that about myself. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that about anybody else and saying it literally
Speaker 1: about myself. I'm sure there's shame associated with anything that
Speaker 1: you're addicted to, but I feel like, gosh, if I
Speaker 1: was addicted to cocaine, nobody would be like, oh, you're disgusting.
Speaker 1: They'd be like, oh, wow, she that's crazy. She needs
Speaker 1: to get some help. But I'm like, if they knew
Speaker 1: what I was addicted to and that I was doing this,
Speaker 1: they'd be like, she's so disgusting. So that's my own
Speaker 1: thought processes. It's not as you putting it out here
Speaker 1: right now on this is breaking down that factor of shame.
Speaker 1: And I think like even on Instagram, like anxiety became
Speaker 1: so popular to talk about, but like depression was in
Speaker 1: the cloud of like this shift thing you can't talk about.
Speaker 1: And I recently talked about something that I never said either,
Speaker 1: which was laxative abuse, and flooded with messages, not comments
Speaker 1: on my private on my public Instagram page, private messages
Speaker 1: of me too. So there is something super secretive still
Speaker 1: about the purging, whether it is up or down, that
Speaker 1: people are still not acknowledging. But you right here saying
Speaker 1: it is showing that there is no disgust to it,
Speaker 1: there is no shame, especially you as Amy back right,
Speaker 1: because I wouldn't want anybody else sharing too. I would
Speaker 1: say that same thing to them. We're breaking it down.
Speaker 1: We're broke it down for so many people. I'm becoming
Speaker 1: more vocal about my story. I think that on the
Speaker 1: radio years ago it maybe come up that I had
Speaker 1: dealt with a needing disorder in high school and college.
Speaker 1: It was kind of like I could relate on that level.
Speaker 1: Never would talk about the issues with food or binging
Speaker 1: or obsession food obsession for all these years. That just
Speaker 1: doesn't come up organically. Then at the stuff with my mom,
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I kept I mean, I told my
Speaker 1: husband about it, but I was very private about it,
Speaker 1: like very until now. Recently, I feel like I'm in
Speaker 1: a better place and I don't want people to feel alone,
Speaker 1: and I need to start sharing that part of my story.
Speaker 1: So a lot of things I haven't said out loud yet,
Speaker 1: like what I just shared, I haven't fully said out
Speaker 1: loud in the whole, in its entirety, and so and
Speaker 1: I don't even I'm still probably not all giving it all.
Speaker 1: I feel good, I mean, I feel like I've been
Speaker 1: like there's a couple of times where I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: smiling inside because it does feel good. There's a little
Speaker 1: bit of a high from it. But also I was
Speaker 1: at a low where I was taken back to it
Speaker 1: and I was very sad for myself and I was
Speaker 1: about to cry, but trying to keep it together for
Speaker 1: the sake of the being one of the hosts here.
Speaker 1: But in crying is okay. I have no issue crying
Speaker 1: on air, done that plenty of times, So I'm sad
Speaker 1: for that's that part of me. I want to tell
Speaker 1: you a story, Okay, one. I have to say this
Speaker 1: because this is huge. This is a side note. But
Speaker 1: when people talk about this stuff, I mean what you
Speaker 1: were saying, it is huge because yeah, people will talk
Speaker 1: about in rexia and restricting and my exercise addiction. They
Speaker 1: won't talk about the other stuff, and it's not any
Speaker 1: better at all. And what you're talking about is shame.
Speaker 1: I feel ashamed for what I did, And what shame
Speaker 1: feeds off of is your silence and secrets. And so
Speaker 1: when we talk about it more, this shame kind of
Speaker 1: gets you starve the shame, so the shame dies. And
Speaker 1: so that's a big deal because I'm sure there's one million,
Speaker 1: jillion trillion people that are going to hear that and
Speaker 1: be like, oh my gosh, I felt that way too.
Speaker 1: Is it okay for me to talk about this? I
Speaker 1: think I'm gonna try it. The other part is This
Speaker 1: is the story I was gonna tell fifteen minutes ago,
Speaker 1: but I'm glad I'm telling it now because there's this doctor.
Speaker 1: His name is Dr Gabor Mate, and he does a
Speaker 1: lot of research and stuff around addiction. He was working
Speaker 1: with heroin addicts and he was trying to figure out
Speaker 1: who's working Nate Center where harm reduction. So it's like
Speaker 1: we're not gonna you're not gonna get sober, We're gonna
Speaker 1: teacher how to responsibly use. But he was going around
Speaker 1: and interviewing these men and women are like, why do
Speaker 1: you why do you use heroin? We know that's bad,
Speaker 1: we know that can kill you. And he went to
Speaker 1: this one guy and he described him the way I
Speaker 1: remember him describing him as this like almost like he
Speaker 1: would look like a big bouncer at like a club
Speaker 1: with like bald head, big guy tattoos, like tough. And
Speaker 1: he said, can you tell me what heroin does for you?
Speaker 1: Like why do you use it? And he said, I
Speaker 1: don't really know how to describe it, but have you
Speaker 1: ever been sick and your mom puts you on her
Speaker 1: lap and she wraps you up in a blanket and
Speaker 1: she starts feeding you chicken noodle soup. He was like,
Speaker 1: that's what heroin feels like. So this guy concluded, oh, love,
Speaker 1: Like that's what heroin feels like. Love. It feels like
Speaker 1: a warm pug. And so I tell that story because
Speaker 1: like there is so much shame in like why do
Speaker 1: I do these things that are so bad? And I'm like,
Speaker 1: what's wrong with me? Is what I hear all the time,
Speaker 1: like Kavin, what is wrong with me? And I'm like,
Speaker 1: nothing's wrong with you. There's actually something right with you,
Speaker 1: Like Amy, there is something right with you. The fact
Speaker 1: that you're like there's something wrong with me. I want
Speaker 1: to feel better. I need to go do this thing
Speaker 1: that I know that used to help me feel better.
Speaker 1: That means that there's something right with you that you
Speaker 1: are trying to find. Like we all need attention, we
Speaker 1: all need love, we all need belonging. We are born
Speaker 1: attached to our mothers like we need attachment. We're born
Speaker 1: that way. And so I just say that because I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people think to themselves like what
Speaker 1: is wrong with me? Like why can't I stop? It's like,
Speaker 1: because you're a healthy human that wants to get better,
Speaker 1: and thank God that you did that rather than like
Speaker 1: just being like take me away life, like when you
Speaker 1: turn to your husband too, which is like telling I
Speaker 1: think I'm not that's your secure attachment now can you
Speaker 1: take you with? And it can't be any it can
Speaker 1: be anybody that's your secure attachments like help me, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you for letting me talk through that. That's actually
Speaker 1: we just made a lot of Claire that we needed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't know where where we would go with that
Speaker 1: for sure, but I think that this is how do
Speaker 1: you feel at LEAs? Do you have anything you want
Speaker 1: to add from your think that the audience will feel
Speaker 1: like I did, where we might not have your exact story,
Speaker 1: or maybe you do. There's plenty of people who have
Speaker 1: purged for that exact reason. But I feel like I've
Speaker 1: made headway in my understanding of myself far beyond my
Speaker 1: even years and therapy, just by understanding the importance of
Speaker 1: secure attachment and personally not having that growing up either
Speaker 1: despite what it looked like. Um and how we go
Speaker 1: about seeking attention because we're scared not we don't feel safe,
Speaker 1: and there's a million ways to do that, but for
Speaker 1: a large majority of us, with the addition of the
Speaker 1: emphasis on thin equals loved equals health equals applause. It's
Speaker 1: an easy one kind of right next to it. So
Speaker 1: what do you do with your clients? What is something
Speaker 1: we can can leaves like they're like an activity or
Speaker 1: like affirmations or something you encourage them to do that
Speaker 1: those that are listening, that might be some of the
Speaker 1: stuff we've talked about today's resonating with them, Like is
Speaker 1: there like some stuff they can like a piece of
Speaker 1: homework or something. My gut says, if this is really
Speaker 1: resonating with somebody, I want them to reach out and
Speaker 1: go to therapy. That could be great advice. That might
Speaker 1: be because some people see that there's shame and therapy
Speaker 1: and we should make sure that we're here to say
Speaker 1: that there's not. There's nothing wrong with that at all whatsoever.
Speaker 1: And something that you say on your Instagram all the
Speaker 1: time that I am not a therapist, but I've been
Speaker 1: in therapy my whole life is there doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be something wrong with you to go to therapy. So
Speaker 1: even if you don't identify with the purging or even
Speaker 1: an eating disorder and you're just listening to this, I
Speaker 1: mean I have found that my most profoundly huge steps
Speaker 1: forward in therapy have been on days where I didn't
Speaker 1: come discussing a trauma or anything relevant to my life.
Speaker 1: Think it's just a tool to better get to know
Speaker 1: your total being and that is profoundly huge in how
Speaker 1: it will affect everything in your life. What about a
Speaker 1: piece of homework for people, Um, that you had said earlier,
Speaker 1: is you know which so second nature for us to
Speaker 1: comment on somebody's body. What are some things that people
Speaker 1: can maybe for the next week work on. I believe
Speaker 1: in like human connection. I think the more we talk
Speaker 1: to people and out loud, the more connected we feel.
Speaker 1: Like being in an uber even and it's so easy
Speaker 1: to just be on your phone the whole time, but
Speaker 1: even interacting with an uber driver or taxi driver I
Speaker 1: live in the city. What are ways that people can
Speaker 1: complement people this week that are non appearance based, Like
Speaker 1: can we push them to talk to people and say
Speaker 1: things that they What are some some things we can
Speaker 1: say to start conversation with strangers or loved ones? You
Speaker 1: know what? I want to come back This actually comes
Speaker 1: from your last week's episode. Um, what did Kelsey say
Speaker 1: about if you think and it's nice, say it? Oh,
Speaker 1: if it's kind so it's kind say So, just to clarify,
Speaker 1: since this is a completely this is a different series,
Speaker 1: but and it's airing in April, but I do have
Speaker 1: I had an interview back in March with Kelsey Allerini
Speaker 1: on the Four Things podcasts. So you're referencing something that's
Speaker 1: you said it just so that we were just talking
Speaker 1: about empowering women and Kelsey was just saying, you know,
Speaker 1: one thing I've learned is if it's kind, say it,
Speaker 1: Like who cares if you know the person or if
Speaker 1: you don't know him. If it's kind, if you think it,
Speaker 1: If you think it and it's kind, say it. That's
Speaker 1: exactly what she says. So I would say that with
Speaker 1: a caveat if it's about the shape of their body.
Speaker 1: So because again you never know if that is a
Speaker 1: point of contention for somebody. But one of the things
Speaker 1: that I've worked on because I actually am like a
Speaker 1: introverted extrovert, which it doesn't make a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: I think I am too. Okay, so okay, we all are,
Speaker 1: but like I sometimes don't I like go into a
Speaker 1: place and I like think all these things about I
Speaker 1: won't ever say anything because I just kind of keep
Speaker 1: to myself and waite for somebody approach me. But I
Speaker 1: think something that we can work on is like when
Speaker 1: we see somebody, and if we're just happy to see somebody,
Speaker 1: say it's good to see you, like I've missed you
Speaker 1: means a lot to me, or rather than being like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, girl, you look so good, you look
Speaker 1: so happy. I think that a lot of the time,
Speaker 1: when we do complement somebody's weight or body change, it's
Speaker 1: because we've become So that's this is an okay thing
Speaker 1: to say to somebody that you might not even know,
Speaker 1: and so you might actually be thinking, this person looks happy.
Speaker 1: But it's a weird thing to say, hey, girl, you
Speaker 1: look happy. So let me say, did you lose weight?
Speaker 1: Like I think that we actually are seeing again, going
Speaker 1: back to the radiance in people, but it might feel
Speaker 1: strange to say you look radiant because it's not a
Speaker 1: normal exchange, like you look good, right, so I think
Speaker 1: diving into your psyche. Okay, maybe you think this person
Speaker 1: looks good. That's the first thing. Why do they look good?
Speaker 1: What are they giving their fitting the standards of what
Speaker 1: society tells us looks good. Because if society didn't say that, like,
Speaker 1: what would we think Like I always say, we are
Speaker 1: the decider of our own opinions, so we get to
Speaker 1: actually decide that, like which a lot of people would
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, dub. But then I'm like, well, do
Speaker 1: you think that because the person next to you think that?
Speaker 1: Or do you think that because you really think that
Speaker 1: about yourself or about other people? And I use the
Speaker 1: example of if I pulled out a peanut butter sandwich
Speaker 1: and started eating it and you're like you peanut butter,
Speaker 1: but I'm like, I don't like it anymore either. The
Speaker 1: same thing as like if somebody is like, I don't
Speaker 1: like your shirt, like, well, I you're allowed still like it.
Speaker 1: If somebody thinks that you look whatever, you can still
Speaker 1: think you look good if society says that you are not.
Speaker 1: But we need to stop questioning ourselves based off of
Speaker 1: others opinions, whether it's as profound as your body or
Speaker 1: insignificant as your shirt. Peanut butter and peanut butter, Catherine,
Speaker 1: thank you for coming to tell if you think it,
Speaker 1: and it's kind to say it, which comes from both
Speaker 1: doesn't come for me. I can't take said it. But
Speaker 1: I don't know if she said it she got it
Speaker 1: from somewhere or I always say make it easy to
Speaker 1: be kind to yourself, So going along with that, it's
Speaker 1: like make it easy to be kind to other people too,
Speaker 1: Like all you have to do is go up to
Speaker 1: somebody and say hi, how are you, and you can
Speaker 1: start a conversation that could make somebody's day, exchanging a
Speaker 1: smile every now and then. People may not remember what
Speaker 1: you say, but they remember how you make them feel.
Speaker 1: And then good one. Okay, Catherine, let's throw out your
Speaker 1: Instagram so people can follow you. Can you say it
Speaker 1: real quick? It's at three Chords Therapy. So three is
Speaker 1: spelled like the word r E. Yeah, and then my
Speaker 1: website is three Chords Therapy dot com. To perfect All right, well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking time to talk. Thank you.
Speaker 1: It's