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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four forty seven of Therapy

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Speaker 1: for Black Girls podcast and to January Jumpstart. We're all

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Speaker 1: locked in on our theme of metamorphosis, and today's conversation

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Speaker 1: is one you don't want to miss. We'll jump right

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Speaker 1: into it right afterward. From our sponsors. For many black women,

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Speaker 1: higher education has long been framed as both a pathway

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Speaker 1: to security and a form of social currency. But when

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Speaker 1: does the pursuit of another degree serve our growth? And

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Speaker 1: when does it distract us from the work we actually

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Speaker 1: want to do. In this episode, I'm joined by Melissa Eiffel,

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Speaker 1: for a thoughtful conversation about the grad school urge, credential collecting,

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Speaker 1: and the complicated relationship black women have with education, labor,

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Speaker 1: and legitimacy. Together, we explore the emotional, cultural, and political

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Speaker 1: forces that push so many of us towards advanced degrees,

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Speaker 1: and what it looks like to pause, reflect, and choose intentionally.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG

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Speaker 1: in Session, or join us in our Patreon channel. To

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Speaker 1: talk more about the episode, you can join us at

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Speaker 1: community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation, Melissa,

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Speaker 1: I am so glad to see you again. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad to see you again. It's been a while.

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Speaker 3: It has been.

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Speaker 1: It has been, But when we started talking about this topic,

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Speaker 1: it kind of felt like an extension of the conversation

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Speaker 1: that we've had about black women and entrepreneurship. And today

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about the black girl urge, as

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Speaker 1: I call it, sometime to go back to school and

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Speaker 1: get another degree. So one as I'm thinking about this,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I wonder if this is something that other communities,

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Speaker 1: like our white women and also like popping up with

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Speaker 1: this urge like you know what, I think I need

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Speaker 1: to go back to school.

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Speaker 3: Like I just don't know enough to know. But why

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Speaker 3: do you.

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Speaker 1: Think there is such a like a strong thread or

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Speaker 1: like a strong urge for you know, black women. When

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Speaker 1: maybe we're feeling a little bored, or we're feeling any

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Speaker 1: kind of thing, one of the things we often are

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Speaker 1: considering is, oh, I need another degree.

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Speaker 3: Or I need to go back to school.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's interesting because when I went to look at

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Speaker 2: some statistics, right, and I didn't look at statistics with

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Speaker 2: regards to Black women versus white women or any other group,

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Speaker 2: But what I did notice is that when it comes

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Speaker 2: to people who tend to return to school later in life,

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Speaker 2: black women have some of the highest statistics when it

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Speaker 2: comes to that group. So, like more of us are

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Speaker 2: in school, we'reen in school later in life, and we're

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Speaker 2: in school when we have more responsibilities, right, so we

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Speaker 2: are caregiving either for children or for our parents. And

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Speaker 2: the reality of it is is that I also looked

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Speaker 2: at some qualitative data around why black women are choosing

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Speaker 2: to go back to school, and it's because we believe

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Speaker 2: that it's going to improve our social economic status. We

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Speaker 2: believe that we have a sense of responsibility to whether

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Speaker 2: it's our daughters, our nieces, our nephews, children in our community,

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Speaker 2: to be able to see people like them get an education,

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Speaker 2: and overarchingly, especially when it comes to black women wanting

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Speaker 2: to get a doctorate degree or a master's degree, there's

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Speaker 2: a belief that if we have a higher educational level,

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Speaker 2: that will have more impact on systems and that we'll

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Speaker 2: have a greater ability to be able to support our

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Speaker 2: own community and people who look like us by shifting

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Speaker 2: systems and being in control or the head of certain

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Speaker 2: systems so that we can make things better for those

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Speaker 2: coming behind us. So I think that when we look

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Speaker 2: statistics and just anecdotally, when I'm talking to women who

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Speaker 2: I'm working with who are looking at going back to school,

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Speaker 2: it's because we think that it's going to make things better.

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Speaker 2: We think that it'll either of make things better for us,

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Speaker 2: it'll make things better for our families, or it'll make

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Speaker 2: things better for the communities at large, which we know

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Speaker 2: is really consistent with how black women show up right.

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Speaker 2: There isn't as much of this intrinsic I want to

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Speaker 2: do this for me. There's a lot of I want

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Speaker 2: to do this for the people around me and the

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Speaker 2: circumstances around me, which is consistently with the way that

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Speaker 2: we move in life in general.

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Speaker 1: H And I completely believe all of those stats, right,

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Speaker 1: Like it makes total sense. I think the difficult part

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Speaker 1: is that there is often this thinking, but it doesn't

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Speaker 1: often match up.

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Speaker 3: With the reality, right, Like I think.

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Speaker 1: We of course all of the isms are what impact, right,

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Speaker 1: Like if this were any other group, like if this

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Speaker 1: were white men kind of outpacing everybody in terms of

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Speaker 1: education all these things, we would see those changes. But

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Speaker 1: unfortunately we do not see like changes in systems and

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Speaker 1: like the ability to impact things in the ways that

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Speaker 1: we would think. Can you talk more about like why

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Speaker 1: that is?

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Speaker 2: Well, like you said the isms, right, So, the reality

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Speaker 2: of it is is that we're going back to school

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Speaker 2: and we're out pacing people in terms of the rate

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Speaker 2: of the people within our community, the rate of black

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Speaker 2: women receiving higher education degrees. But you know, we still

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Speaker 2: have a huge income gap, right, We still make sixty

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Speaker 2: nine cents on the dollar compared to white men who

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Speaker 2: have the same educational status as we do. So we're

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Speaker 2: seeing a shift in the circumstances, meaning that we might

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Speaker 2: make more money than we were making before, but we're

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Speaker 2: still not giving the opportunities to really make shifts in

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Speaker 2: terms of systems, or even shifts for our communities at large.

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Speaker 2: And then I also think that we don't do a

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Speaker 2: lot of winning the costs. So there's this idea that's

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Speaker 2: ingrained in many of us that the more educated you are,

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Speaker 2: sometimes even if you have letters before your name or

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Speaker 2: after your name, people will listen to you, people will

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Speaker 2: value your perspective more so you will have more input

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Speaker 2: and you can create systems and impact systems. But the

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Speaker 2: reality of it is no matter what letters you have,

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Speaker 2: it is more about the systems that we're engaging with

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Speaker 2: that really are constructed in a specific way. They're not

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Speaker 2: constructed with us in mind. They're not constructed to give

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Speaker 2: access to our point of view, and in my humble opinion,

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Speaker 2: they don't care how negatively we are impacted. And so

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Speaker 2: a lot of times we do this work without a

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Speaker 2: sense of oh, this is for me, this is for provido,

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Speaker 2: this is ego. However, our sense of selves and identities

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Speaker 2: become impacted because we are not able to affect the

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Speaker 2: change that we actually want. It becomes very despondent with

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Speaker 2: the systems that we work so hard to be a

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Speaker 2: part of, and then we receive messaging over and over

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Speaker 2: and over again, sometimes very conflicted messaging about our value. Right,

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Speaker 2: so you start off being highly valued, highly sought after,

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Speaker 2: highly coveted, and then when you get into the role,

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Speaker 2: into the position, sometimes you find yourself being a figurehead,

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Speaker 2: or you find yourself fighting against systems that directly reflect

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Speaker 2: to you how much they devalue you. And so one

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Speaker 2: of the things I like to always say is that

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Speaker 2: the energy with the thing stays with the thing until

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Speaker 2: that thing is dismantled or it is uprooted. And we're

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Speaker 2: often trying to join environments that are very clear about

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Speaker 2: how they're constructed and why they're constructed, which is not

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Speaker 2: for us, by us, or considering us, and we don't

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Speaker 2: take into account the impact that it will have on us,

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Speaker 2: not just when we're in those systems after we've gotten

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Speaker 2: these degrees, but on the journey to achieve these degrees,

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Speaker 2: the costs, the cost to our families, the course to

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Speaker 2: our self esteem, the cost to our health, and quite

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Speaker 2: frankly the cost of our.

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Speaker 1: Finances, Melissa, I think when I'm having conversations and I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you two with clients, I also think that a

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Speaker 1: part of what happens with like the going back to

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Speaker 1: school is that it is one of the few things

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Speaker 1: that we have control over, right, right, And so many

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Speaker 1: of us know how.

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Speaker 3: To do school. We have been doing school for so

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Speaker 3: many years.

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Speaker 1: This is a place where I feel very comfortable, right,

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Speaker 1: Like if I feel out of control and somewhere else

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Speaker 1: in my life, the thing that I know I'm accessful

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Speaker 1: at is being a student, right, Like, give me a

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Speaker 1: good syllabus, give me the reading.

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Speaker 3: List, right right.

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Speaker 1: And so I think, in addition to like the economic

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Speaker 1: advancements and you know, the ways that we are trying

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Speaker 1: to promote ourselves and advance ourselves and our families, I

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Speaker 1: do think that one of the subconscious things that is

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Speaker 1: often at play is this like need for control in school,

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Speaker 1: feeling like a very familiar place to be able to

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Speaker 1: get yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I think to tackle that, this idea of a

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Speaker 2: place where we can prove that we're good enough, I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of us are really ingrained with what

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Speaker 2: it means to be a good black woman. What it

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Speaker 2: means to be a good girl in school is a

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Speaker 2: place where it's very easy to be affirmed in that

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Speaker 2: good girl identity, because, like you said, give me a syllabus,

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Speaker 2: give me a rubric about how I can be graded,

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Speaker 2: you know, give me a direct pathway to the degree,

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Speaker 2: and I can follow that because I know what is

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Speaker 2: at the end. And the truth about life, right, especially

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Speaker 2: when you're not in school, is I don't know what's

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Speaker 2: at the end. There is no hard, fast, rigid rubric

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Speaker 2: to achieve the things that we desire, especially happiness. When

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Speaker 2: I was looking at some data when it came to

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Speaker 2: this conversation, I wanted to see what packed does you know, education, money,

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Speaker 2: finances make on happiness, right, because I think my personal

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Speaker 2: belief is that one of the things that we're not

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Speaker 2: trained how to do enough is to be attuned to

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Speaker 2: our own joy, right, And the thing that makes the

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Speaker 2: greatest difference, I think it's It was something like sixty

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Speaker 2: one percent of the people who answered a happiness survey

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Speaker 2: said that time made the greatest difference with their happiness.

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Speaker 2: The ability to decide what they were going to do

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Speaker 2: with the time, and of course the resources to be

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Speaker 2: able to engage with the things that they wanted to do.

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Speaker 2: The thing about time is that when we orient ourselves

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Speaker 2: a certain way that's internal that's not about anybody else's

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Speaker 2: reflection to us. So if time and happiness go together,

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Speaker 2: this idea of success goodness rubric syllabus, these rules believe

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Speaker 2: that we have to follow. That's very much the antithesis

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Speaker 2: of time because you're constantly working to achieve something and

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Speaker 2: sometimes has nothing to do with your inner core and

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Speaker 2: what actually actually really matters to you.

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Speaker 1: Know, yeah, yeah, And I know a lot of your work,

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Speaker 1: Melissa is around like working with black women, around identity

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Speaker 1: and like your values.

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Speaker 3: And so if you had a client who was coming

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Speaker 3: to you saying, you.

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Speaker 1: Know what, I already have these three degrees, but I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking I want to go back to school, what kinds

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Speaker 1: of questions might you ask her? And like what kinds

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Speaker 1: of things might you be trying to depiece apart to

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Speaker 1: kind of figure out like, Okay.

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Speaker 3: What's actually driving this decision?

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Speaker 2: So my first question is always wow, like, and my

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Speaker 2: client's know me well enough. We have a great rapport.

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Speaker 2: Most of them have been looking for for some time,

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Speaker 2: and I kind of lower my glasses you know, because

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Speaker 2: we have these conversations quite often. I'm like, but why

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Speaker 2: are you doing this? Like why do you want to

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Speaker 2: do this? And we really pick apart that why right,

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Speaker 2: and most people just say, well, I think it's time, right,

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Speaker 2: or I think if I went back to school, I

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Speaker 2: could really make change, or I hear this quite often,

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Speaker 2: I've always dreamed about having doctor in front of my name,

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Speaker 2: or I've always dreamed about making my parents proud. So

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Speaker 2: we start with the why, and then we get even

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Speaker 2: more curious about some of the feelings connected to and

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Speaker 2: attached to the why. I ask them what's missing? What's missing? Right?

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Speaker 2: What is missing from your current life that you think

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Speaker 2: this additional degree would support, especially if they already have

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Speaker 2: advanced degree. Can what you're seeking if it is sort

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Speaker 2: of a structured way of learning something be achieved in

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Speaker 2: another way? Do you really need rentorship? Do you need

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Speaker 2: some sort of certificate program? Like? Is there another way

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Speaker 2: that what you're seeking, if it's in the realm of learning,

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Speaker 2: can actually be achieved? And then let's talk about your finances.

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Speaker 2: What are some of your financial goals, and it's going

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Speaker 2: to school going to negatively impact that, right? And what

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Speaker 2: are your supports. What are your supports? Many of the

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Speaker 2: women that I serve are doing multiple things at the

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Speaker 2: same time. They have families. Many of them are partnered,

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Speaker 2: but they bear the brunt of the household responsibilities. Many

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Speaker 2: of them are unpartnered, and many of us are standwid

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Speaker 2: So we're caring for parents as we're caring for our children,

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Speaker 2: and you know, raising children in some way, And so

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Speaker 2: what kind of supports do you have? Right? And then

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Speaker 2: we go into their sense of identity? Right? How much

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Speaker 2: of the little girl who wants to be approved of,

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Speaker 2: who wants to be supported, who wants to feel like

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Speaker 2: she has somewhere to go or some direct answers is

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Speaker 2: showing up in this decision. And a lot of times,

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Speaker 2: once we give it a beat without them finding the program,

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Speaker 2: signing up starting school, a lot of them wind up saying,

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Speaker 2: this actually isn't what I want to do. You know,

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Speaker 2: this actually isn't what I want to do.

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Speaker 1: As I'm listening to you talk, I'm also wondering if

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Speaker 1: there is not a part of this urge that is

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Speaker 1: also driven by loneliness. Right, Because when you think about

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Speaker 1: for many of us, like the last time, maybe you

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Speaker 1: felt very like care free and like it was easy

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Speaker 1: to make friends and connect with other people that may

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Speaker 1: have been like college, right, And so I wonder if

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Speaker 1: that is also a part of it. Do you think

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Speaker 1: that that might play into this decision for some people?

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Speaker 2: That's actually a very very good question, and it's something

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Speaker 2: that I haven't really thought about when it comes to school.

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Speaker 2: But I absolutely can see that we do. Like od

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Speaker 2: times we talk about the loneliness epidemic right for men,

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Speaker 2: but I find that it's that way for many of

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Speaker 2: the women that I service serve. Rather, they don't feel seen,

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Speaker 2: they don't feel honored, they don't feel in deep connection

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Speaker 2: with others, and the last time that they remember at

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Speaker 2: least beginning, like having a direct path to beginning relationship

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Speaker 2: is in some sort of organized and structured way, and

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Speaker 2: that tends to be school for us. I also don't

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Speaker 2: think we have very many hobbies. I think that we

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Speaker 2: live in a culture where we've turned hobbies and interests

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Speaker 2: into some aspects of economy. So we've made those our

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Speaker 2: part time businesses. We've developed the online personas around them

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Speaker 2: as opposed to just being in them, and so we

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Speaker 2: don't have natural third spaces, you know, where we can

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Speaker 2: go and where we can be engaged with things that

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Speaker 2: we love and meet other people that love the same

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Speaker 2: things and have real relationships. There's also a depth of

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Speaker 2: relationship that's missing. You might know people, but you're not

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Speaker 2: able to be vulnerable with them. You don't spend a

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Speaker 2: lot of time with them. Everyone is busy. You don't

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Speaker 2: know how to say to people, I miss you. And

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Speaker 2: so school is a way where there's this natural sort

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Speaker 2: of structure around time and seeing people, but it's also

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Speaker 2: not the depth of relationship that people are seeing. I

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Speaker 2: see an uptick in loneliness when my clients go to school,

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Speaker 2: and an uptick and feeling disconnected and separated from the

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Speaker 2: people who they have been in community with because they

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Speaker 2: feel more isolated.

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Speaker 1: That's a really good point. What do you think are

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Speaker 1: some of the biggest misconceptions people have about obtaining advanced degrees?

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Speaker 2: That it's going to earn them more money first and foremost,

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Speaker 2: and I think that there's a perception that it's going

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Speaker 2: to be the same as the last time they were

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Speaker 2: in school. I find that people who went to school,

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Speaker 2: whether it was high school, college, or received an advanced

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Speaker 2: degree before in school felt easy, simple, structured for them.

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Speaker 2: There's some sort of idea that they're going to return

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Speaker 2: to school and it's going to be the same way

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Speaker 2: when you know, most of us are older, and our

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Speaker 2: brains are going through what they're going through. Most of

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Speaker 2: the women that I work with are in perimenopause or

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Speaker 2: you know, menopause or approaching it, and our memory is,

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Speaker 2: oh child. We are on the struggle bus with memory

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Speaker 2: and with energy right, and so going to school is

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Speaker 2: not as easy as it was. It takes a different

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Speaker 2: set of skills and a different sensib awareness for self.

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Speaker 2: I also think that there's this idea that the faculty

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Speaker 2: are naturally going to be supportive and that they're naturally

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Speaker 2: going to be welcomed into the environment. And a lot

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Speaker 2: of the times, the black women who are going back

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Speaker 2: to school, especially when they're going for doctorate degrees, research

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Speaker 2: degrees or even master's degrees that allow them to take

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Speaker 2: on a v search lens. They're interested in researching things

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Speaker 2: that have to do with their lived experience. And if

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Speaker 2: you're in an environment where your lived experience is not

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Speaker 2: valued or that research is not seen as important, you're

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Speaker 2: fighting an uphill battle. So you can learn all of

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Speaker 2: the things, but the way that you want to embody

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Speaker 2: and promote it in the environment is a fight, and

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Speaker 2: I think many times they're not ready for that fight.

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Speaker 2: They're not ready for the fight of academia. And then

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Speaker 2: also not knowing what the degree that you're looking to

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Speaker 2: pursue actually offers you after you're done. Right, Some degrees

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Speaker 2: are research based, and what you are able to do

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Speaker 2: when you're done has to do with teaching, and if

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Speaker 2: you're not necessarily interested in teaching or research, sometimes that's

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Speaker 2: a shock to people because it doesn't actually allow them

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Speaker 2: to do what they want to do. And some people

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Speaker 2: don't even think about what they want to do after

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Speaker 2: the urge is just to get the degree. And so

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of things that you know, need to

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Speaker 2: be considered before cool.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, you mentioned the environment,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like even before we were seeing all

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Speaker 1: of the you know, DEI rollbacks and cutbacks and people

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Speaker 1: not prioritizing that like grad school, especially like PG programs

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Speaker 1: are just historically hard, right, Like we are often one

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Speaker 1: a few in a cohort. If it's like a cohort model,

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Speaker 1: like there's still just like a plethoro.

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Speaker 3: One, right, Like they're not.

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Speaker 1: There's not a plethora of us typically in grad programs.

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Speaker 1: And you're right, So if you're if you're looking to

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Speaker 1: research things like your lived experience or something that is

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Speaker 1: like a community support kind of thing, you are likely

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Speaker 1: not to get any support.

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Speaker 3: What can you say about like the times that.

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Speaker 1: We're living in now, right and like the like blihood

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Speaker 1: feels maybe even a little less of a chance that

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Speaker 1: you will get support from fact go to you or

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Speaker 1: even the institution itself.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if the audience is going to be

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Speaker 2: able to see my facial expressions, but I feel like

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Speaker 2: we're living in a hostile environment. I feel say the

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Speaker 2: lease to say the least, it's not a targeted environment right,

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Speaker 2: like where we are actually being targeted. I have a

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Speaker 2: hypothesis some of what's being done in terms of DEI rollbacks,

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Speaker 2: in terms of some of the degrees being deprofessionalized when

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Speaker 2: it comes to being able to take out higher loan amounts.

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Speaker 2: I have a hypothesis that some of that is directly

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Speaker 2: because there are so many women and specifically women of color,

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Speaker 2: Black women in particular, receiving these degrees and embedded in

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Speaker 2: these professions. Right and so I think that it's even

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Speaker 2: more of a hostile environment, and not just in the

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Speaker 2: academic institution, but then even the ability to gain access

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Speaker 2: to it most of us when we're going for you know,

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Speaker 2: higher degrees, right, Like we're not funded, we're not fully funded, right,

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Speaker 2: and so you're taking out loans and now you're not

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Speaker 2: really even able to be able to do that based

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Speaker 2: on the new rollouts from the Department of Education and

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Speaker 2: the federal loans, right. And even if you are able

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Speaker 2: to do that, the amount of stress that that causes

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Speaker 2: on you post degree in terms of how much loans

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Speaker 2: you have to what the job actually pays, right, so

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Speaker 2: what you're actually earning. So I think that there's socially

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Speaker 2: and culturally there and systemically, I think that there's a

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Speaker 2: direct sort of attempt to diminish what people are able

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Speaker 2: to achieve, especially women and black women in particular. My opinion,

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Speaker 2: I don't have any stats to back that up, but

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Speaker 2: that is my opinion. And I think that because of that, environmentally,

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Speaker 2: there's no longer a need to hide it. I think

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Speaker 2: that when we live in a society where we at

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Speaker 2: least have systems that may not truthfully purport the same

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Speaker 2: values and beliefs that they have. But like, even if

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Speaker 2: their language acts like it does, it gives people a

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Speaker 2: little bit more pause when they have things to say

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Speaker 2: or do that you know, go against rhetoric, right, propaganda

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Speaker 2: and rhetoric. But when the propaganda and the rhetoric is

401
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Speaker 2: very clear that we don't care about that, there's not

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Speaker 2: even an attempt that people have to make to act

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Speaker 2: like they care about that. And so when we look

404
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Speaker 2: at what's being funded, what's not being funded, When we

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Speaker 2: look at money not being able to be earmarked specifically

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Speaker 2: for black and brown students, for students based on gender,

407
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Speaker 2: when we look at socially, even I have my own

408
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Speaker 2: beliefs against the you know, push against the Divine nine organizations, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: I really think that all of that speaks to a

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Speaker 2: breakdown of access points and community and you know, ways

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Speaker 2: for us to be big and bold and accepted in

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Speaker 2: spaces that have historically been rejecting of us. And I

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Speaker 2: think that it makes room for more outright rejection without

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Speaker 2: even having to give language to the why. Right, it's

415
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Speaker 2: just this is not a fit, this is not a seah.

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Speaker 1: You know, I hadn't thought about the impact that seeing

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Speaker 1: the ways that like our fields in particular are being

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Speaker 1: do you professionalize? Right, Like, you look at the list

419
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Speaker 1: and it definitely feels like it is a very high

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Speaker 1: percentage of like where you see women show up, and

421
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Speaker 1: especially women of color and in particular black women, right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: But I had not thought about the mental health impact

423
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Speaker 1: of you know, like how so much of our worth

424
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 1: is tied to our professional identity and now how these

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Speaker 1: systems are saying like, oh, yeah, but this isn't even

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Speaker 1: a professional degree, Like this doesn't even matter anymore. And

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Speaker 1: so hearing you talk about it that way, it definitely

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Speaker 1: makes me think about, like this is yet another attack

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Speaker 1: on our mental health that I hadn't even put together yet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think that for me brings up

431
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Speaker 2: a chink in our armor. Right when we talk about

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Speaker 2: this idea and we kind of discussed this before when

433
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Speaker 2: we met last time, When we talk about this idea

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Speaker 2: of excellent, when we talk about what it means to

435
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 2: be black and excellent, when we really embody this idea

436
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 2: of what it means to be a good enough black

437
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 2: woman who is excellent, A lot of that has to

438
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 2: do with how we present ourselves. What are our titles,

439
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: what educational level we have if we're partnered, if we're

440
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 2: not partnered, what we believe, what our posture is, what

441
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: clothes we wear. A lot of identity for black women

442
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 2: is historically cloaked. And what does it mean to be

443
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: good enough? What does it mean to be good enough?

444
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 2: And so I think that this deprofessionalization and entitled and

445
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: I mean it has created a very big uproar and chasm,

446
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: right Like if we look at our online communities a therapists,

447
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: people are like, oh, they're coming for us, They're trying

448
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 2: to say that we're not good enough. Then you know

449
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 2: some people are like, oh, but they're trying to take

450
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: our money away. And then you have others who are like,

451
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 2: why do you want to cruise so much debt? Anyway?

452
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: Like I don't make that much money, so why do

453
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: you want to do that? And that's created a chasm

454
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: because we're kind of like inviting about its value and

455
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: if it should or it should not be valuable to us.

456
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: And when I say it's a chink in our armor,

457
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: I think so much of our armor and sense of

458
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 2: personal identity has very little to do with who we

459
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 2: are and very much to do with what we carry

460
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: what we can do and how we can present. And

461
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: I think that when we talk about going back to school,

462
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: sometimes that's another way that we're trying to bolster our

463
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: identity by how we can't present and proving that we're

464
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 2: good enough. You know, when we talk about loneliness, and

465
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: when we talk about black women, we can escape talking

466
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: about partnership, and we can escape talking about women who

467
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 2: early in life chose career and education over having children, right,

468
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 2: And some of what we're facing with a sense of

469
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 2: loneliness is this idea of the life that we imagined

470
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: that we would have at whatever age that we are,

471
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: we don't have. And so some of it comes from

472
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 2: this very real place of well, I don't have what

473
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: I thought I would have. I may not even have

474
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: what I want to have. How can I create something

475
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: else for myself? And I want to be clear that

476
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with reimagining life, but reimagining life from

477
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: a place of your why and from a place of

478
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: seeing yourself as whole already without it. It's very different

479
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 2: from reimagining life and thinking that anything that you add

480
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 2: to your life will make you whole. Those are very

481
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: different dynamics. It gives you a very different purview, and

482
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 2: it also makes you act very different questions about if

483
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: you want to pursue it, and then the kind of

484
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: environment that you choose if you decide to pursue it.

485
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 3: You know, I had not thought about that.

486
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, like in the larger picture, of course,

487
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: like you think about partnership as a part of this conversation.

488
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 3: But I'm now reminded.

489
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: And I don't feel like I've seen this as much recently,

490
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: but I definitely feel like when I was in grad school,

491
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: there was all of this tension around Okay, are you

492
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: going to spend these prime years of your life kind

493
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: of in school or are you going to be pursuing partnership?

494
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: And it was often a taunt I think at black women, like, oh,

495
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: these degrees are not going to keep you warm, and

496
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: in all of these you're.

497
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 3: Spending all of these times, all this time trying to.

498
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: Like focus on a degree, but like what about all

499
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: these other parts of your life?

500
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 2: Right?

501
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: And so it definitely feels like that is something that

502
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: has been historically something we've carried.

503
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 3: Is this this idea that you have to choose one

504
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: or the other?

505
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And I'm absolutely with you when I when

506
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: you say that, you don't hear it as much now.

507
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: I think we hear a large narrative now, like there's

508
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 2: this whole thing about your boyfriend's will embarrass you. You

509
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Yes, you have a right like

510
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: a husband. It's as good as you think he is.

511
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: And as you know, being a woman of a certain age,

512
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: I'm forty seven and I am on partner seeking partnership

513
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 2: as I have more conversations with women who are my age. Yeah,

514
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: I have developed the life that I'm very happy to have.

515
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: Like I think before there was this idea of it

516
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: either or so, like either you're going to do this

517
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 2: or you're going to do that. I think more of

518
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: us as we get older in age and as our

519
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: children leave the home and things of that nature, we're

520
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: looking at the end, right, And so I want to

521
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 2: be clear that I don't necessarily think that it needs

522
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: to be like, oh, you're trying to go back to

523
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 2: school because you lonely, Like I don't want to feed

524
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: that narrative. And we have to be aware of all

525
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: of the factors embedded in our why once again, not

526
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 2: because it'll make you necessarily choose something different, but how

527
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: you enter the space of what you're choosing can be

528
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: different and it can be healthier, right. And I do

529
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: want us to be clear about our wives because I

530
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 2: really have worked with women who have done damage to

531
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: their body when it comes to returning to school because

532
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: of how they have re entered the space. So, if

533
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 2: you're working full time, you are caregiving for children and

534
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 2: or parents, or if you're a partnered you may have

535
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: a job that requires a lot of you in addition

536
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: to just being employed. And we tend to want to

537
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 2: do things with excellence, right, give, I will all overgive

538
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: And you're taking a full courseload in a graduate program,

539
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: like can your body really withstand that? Like we all

540
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 2: have unique genetic imprint about what our body can withsin.

541
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: I know personally for me, when my body is overstressed,

542
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 2: anxiety and depression becomes super high ended in my every

543
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 2: day and this is what makes room for our bodies

544
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: to start to break down. Right, Because we also have

545
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: to know when to say whan when to take a break.

546
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 2: So if you're entering this realm from a place loanliness

547
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: that you have an unpacked from a place of trying

548
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: to find goodness that you haven't identified because you're trying

549
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: to recreate a life because you haven't dealt with the

550
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 2: sadness so for what you don't have, or because you

551
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: want other people to look to you and say, ooh,

552
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: she did it and you don't know that, right, that's

553
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: not in your consciousness. You can be subconsciously creating sickness, illness,

554
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: greater stress for yourself that you haven't adequately identified or

555
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: put in place the supports that you need to be

556
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: able to withstand the joint.

557
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So what does

558
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: that support typically look like? Melissa, Like, let's say you

559
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: know I've done the work I've identified, Like, Okay, I

560
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: think I'm going back for the right reasons, but you

561
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: do still need support. What does that support look like?

562
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: And how do you start to build it?

563
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 2: So the first level of support that I tell people

564
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: to look at is what kind of schedule is going

565
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: to suit you best? Right? So, like, what is the

566
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: structure of the learning environment that you're going on? Is

567
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: it in Purson, is it online? Is it hybrid? Right?

568
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 2: Then what kind of environment do you need to feel

569
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: like you can excel and do well? Right? So, some

570
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: people can withstand a environment that is not supportive, right,

571
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 2: meaning they can go into their show, do the work,

572
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: they have a supportive family and friends team who they

573
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 2: can vent to if things get tough. They feel like

574
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: they may have other people in different spheres of academia,

575
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 2: not at the school they're assigned to. So the school

576
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 2: that they're signed to serves, you know, more utility. And

577
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 2: then there are those of us me, I'm not going

578
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: back to school lack and I'll never not. However, if

579
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: I were to say yes to that, I know I

580
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: need an environment where I can see and taught to

581
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: people and like feel connected and feel supported and feel

582
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: cared about. That is important to you know, my emotional constitution.

583
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: So you know, what do you need emotionally in that environment?

584
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 2: Then what do you need from the people around you

585
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: based on the schedule that you've chosen, right, you know,

586
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 2: based on the type of coursework that's there? Do you

587
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: need somebody to pick up your children? Right? Do you

588
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 2: need a reduced schedule at work? Do you need a

589
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 2: job that understands that there's some days or you know,

590
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 2: sometime periods where a school might be more intense or

591
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 2: more hectic, and so you know, projects that work might

592
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: shift how long have you been at your job to

593
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 2: where they may give you this leeway? Does your job

594
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: offer time or for school or some sort of funding

595
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 2: for school? So what do you need in the environment

596
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: around you? Do you need meal prep right? Do you

597
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 2: need somebody who can help you prepare meals? Do you

598
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: need you know a good girlfriend to talk to. Do

599
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 2: you need to schedule a massage regularly because the embody

600
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 2: needs to be worked out? Do you need to go

601
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: run your labs with your doctor to see what your

602
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 2: health is like right now? Like? What do you need physically, emotionally,

603
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 2: tangibly in the environment and in your personal life to

604
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: be able to sustain your journey? And then I always

605
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: ask people to set up their boundaries. How will you

606
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: know if this continues to be for you? There's a

607
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 2: sticktuitiveness that some of us have. Right, I've made my bed,

608
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 2: so I have to lie in it. This degree is

609
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: going to take me five years. I have to chruch

610
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: through all five right, come hell of high water, no

611
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: matter how it is impacting you. And so what are

612
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 2: your boundaries? If you see it to start impact your

613
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 2: children in certain ways? Will you give yourself permission to

614
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 2: pause if it starts to impact your health in certain ways.

615
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: Can you give yourself permission to pause and will you

616
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: know that this no longer serves you so that you

617
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: can begin to make some concrete decisions and always be

618
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: aware of its impact. You know. One of the things

619
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: that I had to come to terms with, Like I said,

620
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 2: not going back to school, but working multiple jobs has

621
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 2: always been a thing for me. I really sat down,

622
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 2: and I have worked two three jobs, side projects the

623
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 2: majority of my professional career, or had a job, you know,

624
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: like when I was a director of a nonprofit and

625
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,919
Speaker 2: we did like residential programs. I was on call twenty

626
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: four hours a day to be gusuations about days a

627
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 2: year you know, in office, our office vacation not And

628
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: what gave me pause because I wasn't even aware of

629
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 2: the impact of it was having on me. But what

630
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 2: gave me pause was the impact that was having on

631
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 2: my data. And I didn't have the consciousness to be

632
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: able to even check in. Right. I was like, this

633
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: is what we do. We live in New York City,

634
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 2: we make good money, right like, we need to live

635
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 2: a certain way. And when I realized the impact that

636
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: it was happening on her, I had to say, oh,

637
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 2: is this worth it? Is this really worth it to me?

638
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: And once I realized it wasn't, I completely shifted my

639
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 2: life right and then got her some supports that she

640
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: needed for the residual, right for the residual. So we

641
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 2: need to have our boundaries. We need to understand what

642
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 2: makes the difference for us, and I cannot we live

643
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 2: in forty seventy economy. I just want to be very

644
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: clear about that. We live in forty seventy economy, and

645
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: so what does it mean for you and your family

646
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: if you're taking on more debt, the amount of stress

647
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 2: and that I see the debt from student loans bring

648
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: to the people that I work with, to the families,

649
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 2: some of them have been like that degree wasn't worth

650
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 2: it to me. I'm making the extra three, four or

651
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 2: five thousand dollars a year and I have a cool

652
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 2: fifty to sixty seventy one hundred dollars in debt and

653
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 2: I'm paying more with student loans. So actually my income

654
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: is less than it was before I went to school.

655
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 2: So we have to begin to define our parameters about

656
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 2: not just the why, but the kinds of lives that

657
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 2: we want, and at what point is the impact not

658
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 2: worth it? Right, So it's the juice worth the squeeze.

659
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I really appreciate you talking about the sticktuitiveness,

660
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: because that was going to be a question I have

661
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 1: for you. Is that I think it is like both

662
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 1: the blessing and the curse of like how black women

663
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,720
Speaker 1: often show up right, like you give us a task,

664
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: like we are going to master it, and like do excellent.

665
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: But I think that also means that we are often

666
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: not giving ourselves grace and like not giving our self

667
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: permission to hit the escape button right, like rah, this

668
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: was a good idea, but not so much anymore?

669
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 2: And then what is excellence? Sometimes we judge ourselves by

670
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: excellent space on the outcome that we achieve, not recognizing

671
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: that the circumstances that we have to function under to

672
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 2: be able to get the same outcome as someone else

673
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: are very, very very different. So we wind up working harder,

674
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 2: feeling very much ashamed. I feel like we're doing something

675
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 2: wrong when the environments that we've chosen to be in

676
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 2: are not environments that actually serve what outcomes we're seeking.

677
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 2: And then we internalize that like it's something wrong with us,

678
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 2: and it's a very natural thing, because we can be

679
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 2: very outcomes driven. A part of this stuitiveness is I've

680
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 2: decided I want to do this, not just and here's

681
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 2: the real kicker, not just that I want to do this,

682
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: but I want to do this in this timeframe, and

683
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 2: if I don't do it in this timeframe, I fail. So,

684
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 2: from what I understand about the doctor degree and even

685
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 2: some master's degrees, you have to write something, you have

686
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 2: to research something, write something, then get approval, and you

687
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 2: also have to be published. Like some of that is

688
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 2: outside of your control. If you have committee members who

689
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,919
Speaker 2: don't want to work with you for real, well, first

690
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: of all, if it's hard for you to find committee members,

691
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: then you have ones who've been pressured to work with you,

692
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: don't really want to work with you for real, don't

693
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: really believe in your topic, think you should be researching

694
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 2: things differently, right, constantly want to give you these like

695
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,919
Speaker 2: minor corrections that have nothing to do with nothing for real,

696
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 2: or they constantly contradict themselves. Or it's hard for you

697
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 2: to get published because it is hard for you to

698
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 2: find a journal that is interested in your topic, or like,

699
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,359
Speaker 2: some of that is outside of your control. But yet

700
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 2: you internalize it like there's something wrong, what's you And

701
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: for women who are used to being very successful and

702
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: you know, doing things that they set their mind to,

703
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: it's not just the getting into school and then doing

704
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: the coursework. It's also how we manage what we deem

705
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: is not being successful because of all of these external

706
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 2: factors that have nothing to do with our worst and value,

707
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 2: nothing to do with our worth and value. And then

708
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: now that's an additional layer of stress because it's not

709
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 2: just what you're doing, it's also how you're internalizing what

710
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 2: you deem to be successful if it's completely outside of

711
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: your control because you're doing your best, and so I

712
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 2: think that's another marker of it. Sometimes it takes you

713
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: longer if you're really committed to doing this, if you

714
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 2: checked out your why and everything lines up, you got

715
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 2: your support. Sometimes we need grace for how long. It's

716
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: not going to take you two, three, four years. It

717
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 2: might take you five, six, seven, right, and so how

718
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: you carry that time, how you carry that length of

719
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: time is more important than the amount of time I

720
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 2: would rather use. I would rather see you carry seven

721
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,919
Speaker 2: years well, in healthy, in whole right than do three

722
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 2: or four stressed out sick, ill, suppressed, anxious, and then

723
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 2: not really able to meet your other responsibilities and obligations,

724
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: well those things that matter, like for your legacy in

725
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: terms of your family.

726
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: Right, so you've already talked with us about, you know,

727
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,919
Speaker 1: like the lack of hobbies that we will sometimes have.

728
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: Do you have other thoughts about how we can kind

729
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: of redefine and reimagine our relationship to success that is

730
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: outside of going back to school.

731
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 2: That's such a deep question for me, and actually maybe

732
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 2: even a little emotional one. I have personally found that

733
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 2: since my daughter has been at college, like and even

734
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 2: as I was preparing for it her last year of

735
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 2: high school. Oh, like, I don't know a hobby, Like,

736
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,280
Speaker 2: what do I actually love to do? Right besides work

737
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 2: and help people? Like? What do I actually love to do?

738
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: And what I had to realize is some of what

739
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: I've loved to do, I do it through my work.

740
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: But then what if I did it out right? I

741
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 2: love to read. I absolutely love to read. I read

742
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 2: a lot for work, but what if I read a

743
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 2: lot for pleasure?

744
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: Right?

745
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 2: I love to meet new people and talk to them

746
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 2: and be supportive. Well, what if that look like volunteering

747
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: in a way that allowed me to leave that there

748
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 2: is opposed to bring it home. Right? So what if

749
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 2: I just gave out meals? Right? What if I was

750
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 2: a part of a women's group but didn't lead it right?

751
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 2: But if I receive support as opposed to give it right?

752
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 2: So it is really about understanding what parts of life

753
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 2: do you enjoy? And then is it the way that

754
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 2: you're engaging with those things that are not really you know,

755
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: supportive of a full life, but it's more geared towards productivity, right,

756
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 2: So I think that's the piece. Right. How are we

757
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 2: viewing what is productive? Is it only productive if it

758
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 2: yields income? Is it only productive if it yields results

759
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 2: for or someone else? Is it only productive if someone

760
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: else can look at it and say that it's beneficial?

761
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: Is it enough that it brings you a sense of joy,

762
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 2: a sense of peace, a sense of connection to self,

763
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: a sense of connection to creator? Right? How are we

764
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 2: internalizing or looking at the lives that we're building from

765
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 2: a sense of internal mechanisms versus external When we looked

766
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 2: at when I was looking at the studies around while

767
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: black women in particular want to go back to college,

768
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 2: so much of it was external. It had to do

769
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 2: with a sense of productivity and a sense of community,

770
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: and not really things, not much of it had to

771
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 2: do with a sense of internal joy and peace and

772
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: connection or purpose. And so really we orienting ourselves when

773
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 2: we're looking at the lives that we're building and really

774
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 2: investigating what we're seeing as productive and valuable and worthy.

775
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 2: And sometimes just because it makes me smile, like for real,

776
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: for me, just like that makes it worthy enough.

777
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: Yeah. So when listen to the conversation we're having today

778
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: as a part of our January Jumpstar series, and our

779
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:30,760
Speaker 1: theme for this year is all about metamorphosis, Oh.

780
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 3: I love that.

781
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 1: I am not ever I love that reaction. So so

782
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: to stay with the theme, in one word, what does

783
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: your twenty twenty six metamorphosis look like?

784
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 2: Oh, you should have prepare me for this question.

785
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 3: This is the best preparation.

786
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: But that's seed. I was just having a conversation about

787
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 2: this this morning. Wow. Sovereignty, sovereignty. Yeah, I've been pretty

788
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: vocal in my like my personal channels and things like

789
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 2: that about the shift I've made in my spiritual and

790
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 2: professionally even ACNA your spiritual professional personal life over the

791
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: past few years, right. Like I had a group practice,

792
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 2: I closed it down. I was part of the largest

793
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 2: spiritual community, and you know, I decided that that was

794
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 2: not for me anymore. My daughters in college and I

795
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 2: am a bird launcher, right, and so sovereignty. This is

796
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: the first time in my life I've lived my life

797
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: for me, that I'm constructing a life for me, what

798
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 2: feels aligned for me, and not that I'm not still

799
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 2: in community or that I don't still take care of

800
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 2: my daughter. I'm still very much integral with my family,

801
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 2: but it's coming from this place of where am I centered,

802
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 2: what is grounding for me? What is whole for me?

803
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: And I've been working on developing curriculum, actually developed curriculum,

804
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 2: but been teaching a course on ego and you know,

805
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 2: personal development for the past two years. And as I've

806
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 2: done that work, when we do that kind of work,

807
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 2: we have to be doing that kind of work for ourselves, right,

808
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 2: And so really understanding what aspects of myself I've developed

809
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 2: that have been very much rooted in community that no

810
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 2: longer serve me, right, that have been really rooted, and

811
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 2: what's best for others and how cannot support others and

812
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 2: have completely completely taken myself out of the equation. So

813
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 2: what does it mean to be interdependent? What does it

814
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: mean to be sovereign and whole? As I am, as

815
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 2: I love other people and support other people and care

816
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: for other people. I'm being taken on a journey, you

817
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: know what I mean. And my imagination is like, oh,

818
00:47:55,680 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 2: some interesting things are about to happen. But sovereignty, sovereignty,

819
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 2: I've been placed earthside this lifetime with a purpose for

820
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 2: me as well as for others. And so what does

821
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: that look like to twenty twenty six? Sovereignty?

822
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:12,919
Speaker 3: Love it?

823
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: What's one thing you're protecting more fiercely this year?

824
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 2: Oh? My joy, my joy, you know, my joy. I

825
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: think it's very easy to with the spirit of stick suitiveness,

826
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 2: with the spirit of care, with the spirit of responsibility,

827
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 2: the spirit of responsibility. I've agreed to this, so I

828
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: have to do it, or I have these bills to pay,

829
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 2: or I have this idea of what things should be.

830
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 2: Without giving myself the opportunity, without giving ourselves the opportunity

831
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 2: to consistently reimagine, consistently check in to see if it

832
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: still works for us, Consistently check in to see the

833
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: way that we thought it would work needs to be shifted, right,

834
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 2: is it actually working that way? And so joy is

835
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 2: not the state of consistently being happy with something or

836
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 2: like consistentitly being happy in life. No, joy is the

837
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 2: ability to be connected to self, to be connected to peace,

838
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 2: and to have the tools that you need at all

839
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 2: times to be brought back to censor no matter what

840
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 2: you're going through. The things I've been through in the

841
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 2: past two years have really taught me and shown me like, oh,

842
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: like I thought I needed that. Like I thought I

843
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 2: needed that that way, like that thing that way to

844
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 2: be happy. I thought I needed that thing that way

845
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 2: to feel good about myself. I thought I needed that,

846
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,959
Speaker 2: you know. And it's like mm hmm. The sadness will come,

847
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 2: the grieving will come, the awareness of the lass will come,

848
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: and I can still access my joy. Right. The anxiety

849
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: will be present, right, the fear will be present, and

850
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 2: I can still access my joy. So yeah, I'm always

851
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: protecting my joy. I'm always wanting to come back to

852
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 2: what's this about? Does it actually serve me? And so

853
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 2: that's what I'm protecting fiercely, fiercely, Like anything can go anybody.

854
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 3: Right, anybody and anything.

855
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 2: Anything can you mean, yeah, that love that.

856
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 1: We will definitely want to stay in touch with you

857
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 1: so that we can follow this journey that you are

858
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: kind of embarking on yours for yourself, because I feel

859
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: like it is something that gives others permission to do

860
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,240
Speaker 1: some of that for their themselves as well.

861
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 3: Where can we stay connected with you?

862
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 1: What is your website as well as any social media

863
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:42,439
Speaker 1: channels you'd like to share?

864
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I still have Melissa Eiffel dot com. However,

865
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 2: the websites tends to be most active on in terms

866
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 2: of like sending emails out, news service and things like that.

867
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 2: Is reflecting Joy, reflecting hyphenjoy dot com. And then the

868
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,760
Speaker 2: oh the two social media because I'm actually more active

869
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 2: on reds now that I am on Instagram, so threads

870
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 2: in Instagram both, Melissa, I feel OLSSW perfect.

871
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include that in the show notes.

872
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: And I appreciate you sharing that new website because I

873
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: wasn't aware that you were doing something new on that,

874
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 1: so I got to sign up so I can give

875
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:17,439
Speaker 1: my lessons as well.

876
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 2: Yes, doctor Joy, please continue to keep doing what you're doing.

877
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,919
Speaker 2: You are quiet, You're not one of those people that's

878
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 2: like loud about everything, and when you choose to do

879
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 2: something and when you choose to speak, it is meaningful.

880
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 2: And so I just want to encourage you to continue, continue, continue,

881
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: because I can only imagine in the spaces that you're

882
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 2: in it's not always easy, and so I just want

883
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 2: to encourage you to continue. So thank you for this platform. Always.

884
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 3: Thank you, Melissa. It's always a treat to chat with you.

885
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us again. Absolutely, I'm so glad

886
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: Melissa was able to join me for today's conversation. To

887
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: learn more about her and her work, be sure to

888
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com

889
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,479
Speaker 1: slash session four forty seven, and don't forget to text

890
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 1: two of your girls right now and tell them to

891
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 1: check out the episode. Did you know that you could

892
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 1: leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions for

893
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: the podcast. If there's a book or movie you'd like

894
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: us to review or have topics you think we should discuss,

895
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,720
Speaker 1: drop us a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy

896
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.

897
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're

898
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,240
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist

899
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't

900
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: forget to follow us over on Instagram at Therapy for

901
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: Black Girls, and make sure to join us over at

902
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: our Patreon community for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content,

903
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,399
Speaker 1: and much more. You can join us at community dot

904
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by

905
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: Elise Ellis, Indychubu, and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by

906
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again

907
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 1: this week.

908
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 2: Week.

909
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all

910
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: real soon.

911
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:05,359
Speaker 3: Take good care,