WEBVTT - Decompositional Changes: Rookie Cop Thinks Man Was Murdered with Hatchet! 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:07.000 Quality datis, but Joseph's gotten more for the general public. 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:13.080 I think that what defines my profession. The first thing 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:18.840 that pops onto the radar is not necessarily injuries. You know, 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:23.480 horrible trauma, sadness, grief, all of those sorts of things. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:28.360 The one question that people seem to ask me all 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:33.479 the time is how is it that you deal with 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:40.720 being around decomposing human remains. That's not necessarily a one 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:46.720 size fits all question. It is something that I learned 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.360 to do over a protracted period of time. Now, don't 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:54.760 misunderstand me. I never got completely used to it. I 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.639 think that all of you out there would probably think 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:00.720 that I was an absolute lunatic if I said that 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:04.440 I had. However, you do build up somewhat of a 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:09.000 callous to it after a time. But today we're going 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:14.640 to discuss human decomposition and I'm going to kind of 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:18.559 give you an insight from my perspective of death investigation. 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.760 So hold on to your hats, because classes in with 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:29.319 Professor Morgan. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:34.200 Backs Brother Dave. Good to be back with you, man. 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.679 I've been on my world tour man all over Europe 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:44.959 and hitting spots and Paris and Amsterdam and Liverpool. 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.360 I was going to ask you if you met any Liverpudlians. 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:50.840 I did you know? Yeah, I did meet a few 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:54.320 liver Pudlians, Pudlians, Puddlians, Poodlians. 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:56.640 You know the thing Boundary called the Beatles because they 0:01:56.640 --> 0:02:00.560 complete beatles and yeah, yeah, Jerry and the Pacemakers, Yeah, 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:02.040 called them Liverpoodlians. 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:05.640 Yeah. And let's see who else was it was it 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:07.040 Herman and the Hermits at say. 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:13.200 Peter across the Mersey. Who was that? That was not 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:19.919 Peter Noon in the Herman's Hermits, It was across the Makers. 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:22.680 Yeah. I actually sat out and drank a pint next 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.280 to the Mersey River out there with the beautiful broad Kimmy, 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:30.079 and it was a glorious, glorious sunshiny day, gentle breeze 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:32.480 blowing in off the water. And when I say, and look, 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:34.840 we're we're back home in South It's like, I don't 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:38.080 know what eighty percent humidity out there, dude. We had 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.880 to wear sweatshirts and that's in you know, we're we're 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.840 in June and so and they were saying, oh, it's 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.519 nice warm weather. I'm thinking, wow, but it was. It 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:49.960 was enjoyable, it was refreshing. I'm glad to be back 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.519 home and uh, certainly glad to be back with you, 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:55.560 brother Dave. I've missed being on the air with you 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.880 and uh and uh, you know, spent time over in 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.799 Crime Con Crime Con UK in London. So that was 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:04.680 that was a blast, and we're going to talk about 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.280 that more another episode. But I thought, coming back, you know, 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:14.600 we continue our series of forensic education with your humble 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.839 host here and you know, try to go down this line. 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.840 But I got to tell you something. We had a 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:25.680 show today on Nancy Grace and we were talking about 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:31.840 the Holly Bobo case. And in this discussion that Nancy 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.920 and I were having, we were talking about blood in 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:38.560 the garage. Holly Bobo was a twenty year old kidnapped 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.800 from her own home in Tennessee by a couple of 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:46.000 Ruffians and she was actually in her garage carport getting 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:47.480 ready to get into her car to go to school 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.840 seven forty five in the morning when she was taken. Okay, yeah, 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:53.720 And there were two different spots of blood in the 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.560 garage and Nancy was asking, what did that mean, And 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:02.240 I thought, I'm not the right guy to answer this, 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:06.040 but I do know because of Joe, you know, And 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.400 so I actually broke it all down and I said, well, 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.240 a forensic person would say, and I was like, this 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:15.800 blood droplet is different than this blood smear, right, And 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:18.600 it was really cool to be able to bring that 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.760 to the discussion because then, you know, it means something. 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:25.880 Everything that you talk about on this show with regard 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:30.159 to crime and it's body bags, but it actually helps 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.360 all of us to have a better understanding of when 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.920 the crime happens, how does it get solved? Ultimately, you 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:40.360 and I talk about the victims every day and how 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:42.960 do you It's never about closure, but it is about 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:48.280 finding some resolution, some finality, and finding the justice that 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:52.000 that person and their family deserves. And it all comes 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.640 together forensically. You have to prove it. You know, you 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:59.479 can actually convict a person of murder without ever having 0:04:59.520 --> 0:04:59.920 a dead bos. 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.760 Yeah you can. Yeah. The blood. The blood. The blood 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.279 for instance, many times it is representative of the corpus delecti, 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.680 which means the body of the case. And so, and 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.080 I think I've said this before, the more blood you have, 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:18.520 and uh, scientists love to use the term copious always. 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:20.400 Like that, copious amounts of blood. 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:24.200 Yeah, copious amounts of blood. Uh, you know, huge volume 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.520 of blood. Which and again here here's another uh term 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.880 or the phrase they like to use, uh, incompatibility with life. 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.039 You know, that's that's one of those things. You spill 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.240 so much blood, you know that, Uh, And depend upon 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:39.520 the person. You know, you have a finite amount of 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.600 blood in your body, and even that finite amount that 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.440 within the ranges of blood that you have within your body, 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:47.640 is going to dictate whether or not you're going to 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:49.920 survive or not, you know, whether it's it's going to 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:54.680 be sufficient to the task of providing yourselves with oxygenated 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:56.159 blood supply. 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:56.520 So. 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:02.400 But uh, you know, with decomposition, we we discuss blood 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:06.280 in decomposition and blood in fact because it is an element, 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:09.520 a complex element. It's not a blood. It's not a 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:15.360 standalone substance. It's a it's a it's a compound of 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:20.200 many things, and blood itself does decome decompose. 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:21.000 Uh. 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.679 All you know, not all I have to tell you is, uh, listen, 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:29.520 if you if you've ever had like a a rotten 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:33.040 bit of meat in your refrigerator, say, for instance, you 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:37.200 forgot the uh, the roast that was wrapped and sulfane. 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.560 It was in the back of your refrigerator and you say, oh, 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:41.520 look a roast and you pull it out and some 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:43.239 of that seeps out onto the floor. 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:44.200 Uh. 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.240 It's one of the fouls substances known to man. It's 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.160 not necessarily just the the you know that that element 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:54.360 of the roast that is decomposing, it's that liquid that's 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:59.080 contained therein which is blood and it changes color. It's 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:02.000 got an awful, awful scent to it. And we'll go 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:05.599 into that in this particular episode of body Bags. But yeah, 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:09.359 it's it's part and parcel of what we do people. 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:11.840 I want to go back just for a second though, 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.240 because many many times people say, I don't see how. 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:16.080 In the world. 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:21.680 You bear staying locked up in a room which I 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:28.960 have with a decomposing body, and how can you do 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:32.160 what you have to do scientifically as far as assessments go, 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.920 and and dwell that environment with that And it's you know, 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.320 how let me let me just throw this out to you, Dave. 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:42.640 Do you have any idea how I adjusted my mindset 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:48.520 to it, any idea whatsoever? Like what did I do. 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:56.960 I looked at it. I looked at decomposition as a 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:04.440 normal biological process, almost like birth. And I've been present 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.560 for the birth of my children, and people will go 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.840 on and on about what a beautiful thing birth is. 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.320 It is. It is a beautiful thing, you know, when 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:17.800 new life comes about. However, it's an ugly thing too 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.640 if you've never been present for a birth and you 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:24.480 see what occurs in the midst of all of this, 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:28.320 it's a very bloody affair. And so but that's a 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:33.599 natural biological process. And I've always tried to understand it 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.720 from that perspective, if I could ever get my because look, 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.719 you know, death investigators have bad days too, obviously. You 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:41.400 know it's like you're standing there. You don't want to 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.040 be around a decomposing body. But I have to You 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.600 always kind of have to anchor yourself in the thought that, Okay, 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:49.600 if I'm going to be here, I'm going to set 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.280 my feet in stone. I'm going to understand this is 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.439 a normal biological process. I have to get past the 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:59.199 odor and the things that you see that surround the 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.520 body in order to find the truth. And of course, 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.360 in science, that's that's all I'm interested in. I'm not 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:09.679 interested in all this other you know, peripheral stuff that 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:11.559 a lot of people go after, you know, in the 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:16.240 criminal justice system. That stuff, to me, uh is outside 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:18.840 my wheelhouse. I like to understand what science is trying 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.840 to tell me and listen, decomposition in human remains, Dave 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:26.360 is one of the finest teachers that it's out there. 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.400 Now. It happens quick, doesn't it. I mean, when when 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:34.319 we from the moment we die, our body starts decomposing 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:35.800 right away. Isn't that correct? 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.280 Yeah? It does. You can't small ways. Yeah, in small 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:44.560 ways you can't see it, you can't smell it. But yeah, 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:50.160 at at a cellular level, the sales begin to you know, 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.480 essentially break down, and you're not going to necessarily see 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:57.240 it immediately. And we're going to get into another episode 0:09:57.240 --> 0:09:59.839 where we're going to be talking about immediate kind of 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.959 of post war changes, but we're kind of taking a 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:09.480 broad view. You're not going to get like, within within 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:11.960 minutes of death, you're not going to have a foul 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.240 odor emanating from the body that's associated with decomposition. Now, 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.200 you can't have a foul odor that's emanating from human 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.400 remains save for instance, if they soil themselves right during 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.800 the throes of death, and that does, in fact happen. 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:25.200 It doesn't happen every time. 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.160 A lot of people say, okay, well doesn't that happen? 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:27.960 Every single time? 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.679 I thought that wasn't it. I learned it wasn't. But 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:34.880 for the longest time I thought that when a person died, 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:39.920 everything just let go the spin. There you go, Mary 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:40.880 christ I'm glad. 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.880 I'm glad you actually mentioned that because that you know, 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.400 when you get that that release safer instance of an 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:53.600 individual's bowels. Many times, that will take some time to occur, 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:59.120 and you mentioned the sphincter muscle specifically. You have to 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.600 have that area of the tissue begin to break down 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:03.760 so that that tension is no longer there, and if 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:08.280 there is feces in the bowel, it can release, and 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.960 that does happen. You'll have bladder releases many times. Lots 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.120 of times bladder releases happen. I found when they're in 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.280 the perimortem, say, when they're in the throes of death, 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:21.880 you know that that will occur, but you know you 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.520 you don't have it every single time. I think a 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:28.520 lot of people labor under this idea that it occurs 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.520 in every single event like this, and it just doesn't. 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:34.960 Isn't that because part of its biology that we're all different. 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:37.319 I mean, like Elvis. When Elvis died, we know that 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.320 he had an impacted colon. Isn't that what that was called? 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.199 Yeah? Yeah, he And a lot of that had to 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.360 do with these kind of opiate based drakes, which you'll 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.040 find consturbated all the time he was, Yeah, he was. 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:52.800 And people that are addicted to things like heroin and morphine, 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.839 and also any kind of opioid, even if it's some 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.600 kind of synthetic, you know, thing that has been created 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.760 a lot app it'll essentially lock up the bowels. And 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:08.520 I've done I've done autopsies on individuals or participating in 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:12.400 autopsies on individuals that are heroin ods, and you'll have 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:17.400 their entire large bowel with fecal impaction. And it's a 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:21.160 miserable existence because they can't they can't pass, you know, anything. 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.600 And plus they most of the time they don't eat 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.960 healthy foods anyway that keep the system rolling. And they're 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:31.040 they're hydrated either, which plays a big role into it. 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.439 So it doesn't happen every single time But interesting fact 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:40.760 about about Elvis with his death. You know his I think, 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:42.400 and I know that you're going to know this, but 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.560 I think his last his last words were I'm I'm 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:47.280 going to the bathroom to read. I think it's what 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:52.000 he told his girlfriend at the time. Yeah, I need that. 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.559 And so he's he's on the toilet or as my 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:59.719 grainyused saying, the code, uh, he's on the commode, and 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.920 and he dies. And did you know that there is 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:09.079 a significant number of people, such a significant number of 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.520 people that are found dead on toilets that we actually 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.400 have a term, a kind of a euphemistic term that 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:20.800 we use in death investigation called toilet sign. And here's why. 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:27.160 Many folks that do die while seated on the toilet, 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:31.480 they have mistaken this urgency to go to the bathroom 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.120 that that is masking an m I they're actually having 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.640 a heart attack. So they will go to the bathroom, 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.360 sit on a toilet, and many times the strain of 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:42.720 being on the toilet will push them over the edge. 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:45.439 So yeah, wow, we literally have I can't tell you 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:47.679 it's a countless number. At first that you know, when 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:49.439 I was a young investigator, I didn't think it was 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:53.120 a real thing, and the older guys had told me 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.120 that it was a real thing. And so you know 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:59.160 how older guys, you know, they they talked to us 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.880 knuckleheads that are young. You don't believe anything until it's 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:05.280 proven to you, right, trust me, I've got a twenty 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.920 three year old son, and so when it's demonstrated, you say, 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:11.360 oh my gosh, they were right. You know, Yeah, I've 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.040 been catching all these cases is their natural desks, but 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.000 I've been catching these cases within visuals on toilets, and 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.440 so yeah, it's legitimate. I don't know if there's ever 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:23.200 been a definitive scientific study about toilet sign but it's 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.280 a real thing. It's something that we talk about and 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.440 we talked about it for years and years in the field, 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:29.880 and you know, we'll just say, yeah, we have a 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:31.160 toilet sign case today. 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:31.640 Wow. 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:33.760 So yeah, and that that that's a real thing that 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:34.240 does happen. 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.400 But one of the things that when we start talking 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:40.640 about decomposition, and I didn't when you when you first 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.160 mentioned wanting to do this, do you realize that those 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:48.840 of us who follow crime report on crime cover, you know, 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:54.600 crimes that most of us only know the scientific aspect 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:58.120 of things when people like you are talking on a 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.240 crime show, because most of us are not in an 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:04.360 academic area. We're not taking you know, your class at school, 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.760 and this is the only way we find out is 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.680 by you sharing your knowledge. Because I don't know what happens. 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:13.600 I mean, I really don't. I know that the men 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.880 that I die, that everything stops living because I'm dead. 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.160 And obviously if you're not living, you're dying, which means 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:24.280 you're heading back to dirt eventually. Yeah, that's all I know. 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.720 I don't know the speed that it happens. I would 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:30.840 think it'd be very quickly, you know, in a broad sense. 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:36.440 It look, everything is environmentally dependent, you know. And I've 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:38.040 mentioned this countless times on. 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:43.240 Our program, where you know, we're referring to uh, the 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:48.720 biggest the biggest factor's heat, you know where you know. 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:53.160 I've gone on on scenes, man, where I've had multiple 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.720 bodies in a location that all died as a result 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:02.160 of one case in particular, had I think it was 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.720 four guys that had transported dope from Mexico. They were 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:10.240 in a van and they were tasked with meeting person 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.400 they were gonna to exchange with in a warehouse area 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.040 in Atlanta, actually not too far from Six Legs, Atlanta, 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:18.520 in a industrial park. 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:19.200 And. 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.320 All four of these guys were shot in the van 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:25.800 through the windows and killed and the dope was taken. 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.240 We didn't find their bodies for two months, and they 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:32.640 were just parked under tree and it's actually a conversion 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:34.520 van that was over there and no one. Some guy 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.560 decided to walk back there and smoke a cigarette and 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.600 when he did, he catches a whiff. Well, when I 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.400 opened the door of that van, when I got there, 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.880 liquid came pouring out of the van, and that was 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.720 decompositional fluid. And so they'd been there for two months. 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.720 I've had them even worse than that, where bodies will. 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:59.320 They don't turn into puddles necessarily, but the skin becomes 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:03.200 very soft and spongy. It's much like a sponge, and 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:05.800 you can feel it kind of when you place your 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:13.200 hands on the decomposing tissue, it feels like it feels 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.879 almost like the crackling of bubble wrap many times, and 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:21.760 that's because the cells in that area in some of 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.840 these cases, they kind of expand with these decompositional gases 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.440 that are contained within that area, and you can almost 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:33.240 feel it crackle beneath your fingertips. I've had friends that 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.879 have said that, and this has never happened to me. 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.560 But I've had people that have said that bodies when 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:44.879 they go to pull on them literally come apart it joints. Now, 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.520 that's never happened with me. I've had I've had the 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:51.800 manifestation was referred to as skin slippage. And you'll hear 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:55.000 this in trials. Many times they'll talk about skin slippage, 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:59.080 for instance, and that's where the epidermis, that top layer 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.280 of skin, even down to the dermis below, the epidermist 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:07.680 will literally peel off, you know, in your hand and 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.240 that but that takes time, you know, it takes a 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.000 certain amount of time. There's almost like this kind of 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.840 tenderizing factor. If you will give me a little latitude 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.680 there with that that that has to take place. Eventually 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:24.439 the bodies will in fact dry out, but before they 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.000 dry out, there's a whole process that occurs before you 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:45.600 ever get to that market. I think it's important to 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:49.480 understand that, you know, decomposition can mean a variety of 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:53.960 different things to folks. You know, when when I was 0:18:54.040 --> 0:19:00.359 a kid, I had to build a composting bind in 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:04.960 the backyard. My mother is. She loves gardening, she always 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:08.640 has and so everywhere she's lived she's had a composting bent. 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:12.119 And well what does that mean. Well, you in the 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.040 composting bin, you're gonna plow organic materials in there. I 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.880 remember her putting coffee grounds and eggshells and everything else, 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:19.720 and not to mention all of the leaves from the 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.879 previous spall. And you have to turn it. You have 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:24.959 to turn it. Some people put earthworms in there, all 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.720 kinds of things going. But you're trying to break down 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:32.040 that organic substance that's in there, and it creates this rich, 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:34.360 you know, kind of rich stirt. And it's interesting, Dave, 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:38.119 that you said a few months ago that we that 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:41.560 we turn you know, we turned into dust. And you know, 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:45.760 there's that old Bible verse that, you know, what was 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:49.359 it from dust you came, and from dust you shall return, 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:55.240 And that that is truly the definition of what happens. 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.480 It just takes some time. It's not it's not some 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:04.159 kind of fantastical movie event. You have to you have 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.480 to be down for a long time. But what kicks 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:09.720 this whole thing off is heat, heat and absence of life. 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.680 But you know, kind of the functional definition for decomposition, 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.520 how do you define it? Well, it's a disintegration of 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:24.200 body tissues after death is known as decomposition. And I'd 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:26.320 mentioned to you just a moment ago that one of 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:30.560 my one of my favorite characters in Looney Tunes, in 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:35.320 the Looney Tunes universe is the Martian that you know, 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:38.159 he's got the disintegrator array that he uses, and of 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:41.280 course Bugs always turns it around on him. I don't 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:44.600 think any good Bugs money cartoons ever were made after 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:47.840 probably about nineteen seventy by the way, just my thoughts. 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:53.080 But anyway, you know what does disintegration mean? Well, we 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:57.000 know what integrated is That means to blend right, or 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:01.040 if you have integrated circuits. You know, for instance, if 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.520 you're talking, if you're speaking to somebody that's like an 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.399 electrical engineer, well we're we're actually integrated. All of our 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:11.359 systems are integrated. Well, once that spark of life has 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:15.320 left the body and you no longer have this process 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:19.560 of keeping cells oxygenated, you have cellular respiration that's going on, 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:24.200 these things over a period of time will actually begin 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:30.399 to pull apart, and they naturally fall apart. And so 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.119 that's that's part of the process, and it's something that 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:33.760 we you know. 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:37.959 That you have to understand, all right, So as you're 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:45.000 going through this entire process too, I guess I'm approaching 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:46.760 it a little bit different and trying to think about 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:52.520 the decomposition because, yeah, because it's not something I'm used 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:54.240 to talking about. You know, when you're talking about the 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.399 roast and the refrigerator. You know, things like that opening 0:21:57.440 --> 0:21:59.720 a bad meat from the store, and you get that 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:04.560 if you know that you're getting something bad. So when 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:09.040 you're talking about this beginning stages here where it's starting 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:11.880 to break down, what does that tell you when you're 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:14.520 coming in as an investigator and looking at things as 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:19.240 you are studying that individual. Because all the time we 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:21.959 want to know, well, we always want to know the motive, 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:26.080 why did this happen? But when when did this happen? 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:28.000 You know, I've talked about that. You've got to tell 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:30.359 me exactly when this person died, Joe. I need to 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:32.560 know was it before or after dinner? Did they eat 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:35.600 dinner at ten o'clock or eight o'clock? Yeah, And sometimes 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:40.000 those things can't be told by the contents of your stomach. 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:40.880 There's got to be more. 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:45.520 Yeah, you're right, And if you're looking for me or 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:48.159 any of my colleagues, tell you, and I'm saying to 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:52.640 you in the universal sense, Dave, that when somebody actually died, 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:55.800 it's an empirical impossibility. And anybody tells you that the 0:22:55.960 --> 0:23:00.640 can is lying and so you know the short term 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:04.560 and that's a micro a micro examination you know when 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:08.600 and we'll talk about this on another episode. Even in 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:12.440 that sense, we the best we can do is some 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:14.040 people say they can do it in three you know, 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:17.280 within a three hour window. Most of the time, I 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:19.000 think it's going to be about four to five. If 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.160 you cover all your bases. When you have something, yeah, 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:22.600 if you. 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:24.720 Know, O, there's things surrounding it, because you know, we 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:28.400 build that timeline, and as we're building the timeline of activity, 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:31.320 you can take all that into consideration and narrow it 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:33.760 down even further based on what you're seeing in the 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:37.960 physical realm of the of the actual decomposition. So yeah, 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:40.159 you're not just blindly finding a body on the street, 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:41.040 you know, right. 0:23:41.040 --> 0:23:43.760 Yeah, if you if you can, if you can kind 0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:48.400