1
00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,000
Speaker 1: Quality datis, but Joseph's gotten more for the general public.

2
00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:13,080
Speaker 1: I think that what defines my profession. The first thing

3
00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:18,840
Speaker 1: that pops onto the radar is not necessarily injuries. You know,

4
00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:23,480
Speaker 1: horrible trauma, sadness, grief, all of those sorts of things.

5
00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:28,360
Speaker 1: The one question that people seem to ask me all

6
00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:33,479
Speaker 1: the time is how is it that you deal with

7
00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:40,720
Speaker 1: being around decomposing human remains. That's not necessarily a one

8
00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:46,720
Speaker 1: size fits all question. It is something that I learned

9
00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,360
Speaker 1: to do over a protracted period of time. Now, don't

10
00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,760
Speaker 1: misunderstand me. I never got completely used to it. I

11
00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,639
Speaker 1: think that all of you out there would probably think

12
00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,720
Speaker 1: that I was an absolute lunatic if I said that

13
00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,440
Speaker 1: I had. However, you do build up somewhat of a

14
00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:09,000
Speaker 1: callous to it after a time. But today we're going

15
00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:14,640
Speaker 1: to discuss human decomposition and I'm going to kind of

16
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,559
Speaker 1: give you an insight from my perspective of death investigation.

17
00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,760
Speaker 1: So hold on to your hats, because classes in with

18
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:29,319
Speaker 1: Professor Morgan. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body

19
00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:34,200
Speaker 1: Backs Brother Dave. Good to be back with you, man.

20
00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,679
Speaker 1: I've been on my world tour man all over Europe

21
00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:44,959
Speaker 1: and hitting spots and Paris and Amsterdam and Liverpool.

22
00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,360
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you if you met any Liverpudlians.

23
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,840
Speaker 1: I did you know? Yeah, I did meet a few

24
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,320
Speaker 1: liver Pudlians, Pudlians, Puddlians, Poodlians.

25
00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,640
Speaker 2: You know the thing Boundary called the Beatles because they

26
00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,560
Speaker 2: complete beatles and yeah, yeah, Jerry and the Pacemakers, Yeah,

27
00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,040
Speaker 2: called them Liverpoodlians.

28
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. And let's see who else was it was it

29
00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:07,040
Speaker 1: Herman and the Hermits at say.

30
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:13,200
Speaker 2: Peter across the Mersey. Who was that? That was not

31
00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:19,919
Speaker 2: Peter Noon in the Herman's Hermits, It was across the Makers.

32
00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. I actually sat out and drank a pint next

33
00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,280
Speaker 1: to the Mersey River out there with the beautiful broad Kimmy,

34
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:30,079
Speaker 1: and it was a glorious, glorious sunshiny day, gentle breeze

35
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 1: blowing in off the water. And when I say, and look,

36
00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,840
Speaker 1: we're we're back home in South It's like, I don't

37
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,080
Speaker 1: know what eighty percent humidity out there, dude. We had

38
00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,880
Speaker 1: to wear sweatshirts and that's in you know, we're we're

39
00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,840
Speaker 1: in June and so and they were saying, oh, it's

40
00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,519
Speaker 1: nice warm weather. I'm thinking, wow, but it was. It

41
00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:49,960
Speaker 1: was enjoyable, it was refreshing. I'm glad to be back

42
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,519
Speaker 1: home and uh, certainly glad to be back with you,

43
00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,560
Speaker 1: brother Dave. I've missed being on the air with you

44
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,880
Speaker 1: and uh and uh, you know, spent time over in

45
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,799
Speaker 1: Crime Con Crime Con UK in London. So that was

46
00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:04,680
Speaker 1: that was a blast, and we're going to talk about

47
00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,280
Speaker 1: that more another episode. But I thought, coming back, you know,

48
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:14,600
Speaker 1: we continue our series of forensic education with your humble

49
00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,839
Speaker 1: host here and you know, try to go down this line.

50
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,840
Speaker 2: But I got to tell you something. We had a

51
00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:25,680
Speaker 2: show today on Nancy Grace and we were talking about

52
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:31,840
Speaker 2: the Holly Bobo case. And in this discussion that Nancy

53
00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,920
Speaker 2: and I were having, we were talking about blood in

54
00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,560
Speaker 2: the garage. Holly Bobo was a twenty year old kidnapped

55
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,800
Speaker 2: from her own home in Tennessee by a couple of

56
00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:46,000
Speaker 2: Ruffians and she was actually in her garage carport getting

57
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:47,480
Speaker 2: ready to get into her car to go to school

58
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,840
Speaker 2: seven forty five in the morning when she was taken. Okay, yeah,

59
00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,720
Speaker 2: And there were two different spots of blood in the

60
00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,560
Speaker 2: garage and Nancy was asking, what did that mean, And

61
00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,240
Speaker 2: I thought, I'm not the right guy to answer this,

62
00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,040
Speaker 2: but I do know because of Joe, you know, And

63
00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,400
Speaker 2: so I actually broke it all down and I said, well,

64
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,240
Speaker 2: a forensic person would say, and I was like, this

65
00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,800
Speaker 2: blood droplet is different than this blood smear, right, And

66
00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,600
Speaker 2: it was really cool to be able to bring that

67
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,760
Speaker 2: to the discussion because then, you know, it means something.

68
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,880
Speaker 2: Everything that you talk about on this show with regard

69
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,159
Speaker 2: to crime and it's body bags, but it actually helps

70
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,360
Speaker 2: all of us to have a better understanding of when

71
00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,920
Speaker 2: the crime happens, how does it get solved? Ultimately, you

72
00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,360
Speaker 2: and I talk about the victims every day and how

73
00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,960
Speaker 2: do you It's never about closure, but it is about

74
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:48,280
Speaker 2: finding some resolution, some finality, and finding the justice that

75
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,000
Speaker 2: that person and their family deserves. And it all comes

76
00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,640
Speaker 2: together forensically. You have to prove it. You know, you

77
00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:59,479
Speaker 2: can actually convict a person of murder without ever having

78
00:04:59,520 --> 00:04:59,920
Speaker 2: a dead bos.

79
00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,760
Speaker 1: Yeah you can. Yeah. The blood. The blood. The blood

80
00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,279
Speaker 1: for instance, many times it is representative of the corpus delecti,

81
00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 1: which means the body of the case. And so, and

82
00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,080
Speaker 1: I think I've said this before, the more blood you have,

83
00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,520
Speaker 1: and uh, scientists love to use the term copious always.

84
00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,400
Speaker 2: Like that, copious amounts of blood.

85
00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, copious amounts of blood. Uh, you know, huge volume

86
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,520
Speaker 1: of blood. Which and again here here's another uh term

87
00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,880
Speaker 1: or the phrase they like to use, uh, incompatibility with life.

88
00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,039
Speaker 1: You know, that's that's one of those things. You spill

89
00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,240
Speaker 1: so much blood, you know that, Uh, And depend upon

90
00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,520
Speaker 1: the person. You know, you have a finite amount of

91
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,600
Speaker 1: blood in your body, and even that finite amount that

92
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,440
Speaker 1: within the ranges of blood that you have within your body,

93
00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:47,640
Speaker 1: is going to dictate whether or not you're going to

94
00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 1: survive or not, you know, whether it's it's going to

95
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,680
Speaker 1: be sufficient to the task of providing yourselves with oxygenated

96
00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:56,159
Speaker 1: blood supply.

97
00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:56,520
Speaker 2: So.

98
00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,400
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, with decomposition, we we discuss blood

99
00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,280
Speaker 1: in decomposition and blood in fact because it is an element,

100
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,520
Speaker 1: a complex element. It's not a blood. It's not a

101
00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:15,360
Speaker 1: standalone substance. It's a it's a it's a compound of

102
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,200
Speaker 1: many things, and blood itself does decome decompose.

103
00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:21,000
Speaker 2: Uh.

104
00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,679
Speaker 1: All you know, not all I have to tell you is, uh, listen,

105
00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,520
Speaker 1: if you if you've ever had like a a rotten

106
00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,040
Speaker 1: bit of meat in your refrigerator, say, for instance, you

107
00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,200
Speaker 1: forgot the uh, the roast that was wrapped and sulfane.

108
00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,560
Speaker 1: It was in the back of your refrigerator and you say, oh,

109
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,520
Speaker 1: look a roast and you pull it out and some

110
00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,239
Speaker 1: of that seeps out onto the floor.

111
00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:44,200
Speaker 2: Uh.

112
00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,240
Speaker 1: It's one of the fouls substances known to man. It's

113
00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,160
Speaker 1: not necessarily just the the you know that that element

114
00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,360
Speaker 1: of the roast that is decomposing, it's that liquid that's

115
00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:59,080
Speaker 1: contained therein which is blood and it changes color. It's

116
00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,000
Speaker 1: got an awful, awful scent to it. And we'll go

117
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,599
Speaker 1: into that in this particular episode of body Bags. But yeah,

118
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,359
Speaker 1: it's it's part and parcel of what we do people.

119
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:11,840
Speaker 1: I want to go back just for a second though,

120
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,240
Speaker 1: because many many times people say, I don't see how.

121
00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:16,080
Speaker 2: In the world.

122
00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,680
Speaker 1: You bear staying locked up in a room which I

123
00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:28,960
Speaker 1: have with a decomposing body, and how can you do

124
00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,160
Speaker 1: what you have to do scientifically as far as assessments go,

125
00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,920
Speaker 1: and and dwell that environment with that And it's you know,

126
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,320
Speaker 1: how let me let me just throw this out to you, Dave.

127
00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,640
Speaker 1: Do you have any idea how I adjusted my mindset

128
00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:48,520
Speaker 1: to it, any idea whatsoever? Like what did I do.

129
00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:56,960
Speaker 1: I looked at it. I looked at decomposition as a

130
00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:04,440
Speaker 1: normal biological process, almost like birth. And I've been present

131
00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,560
Speaker 1: for the birth of my children, and people will go

132
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,840
Speaker 1: on and on about what a beautiful thing birth is.

133
00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,320
Speaker 1: It is. It is a beautiful thing, you know, when

134
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,800
Speaker 1: new life comes about. However, it's an ugly thing too

135
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,640
Speaker 1: if you've never been present for a birth and you

136
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,480
Speaker 1: see what occurs in the midst of all of this,

137
00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,320
Speaker 1: it's a very bloody affair. And so but that's a

138
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:33,599
Speaker 1: natural biological process. And I've always tried to understand it

139
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,720
Speaker 1: from that perspective, if I could ever get my because look,

140
00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,719
Speaker 1: you know, death investigators have bad days too, obviously. You

141
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,400
Speaker 1: know it's like you're standing there. You don't want to

142
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,040
Speaker 1: be around a decomposing body. But I have to You

143
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,600
Speaker 1: always kind of have to anchor yourself in the thought that, Okay,

144
00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,600
Speaker 1: if I'm going to be here, I'm going to set

145
00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,280
Speaker 1: my feet in stone. I'm going to understand this is

146
00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,439
Speaker 1: a normal biological process. I have to get past the

147
00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,199
Speaker 1: odor and the things that you see that surround the

148
00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,520
Speaker 1: body in order to find the truth. And of course,

149
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 1: in science, that's that's all I'm interested in. I'm not

150
00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,679
Speaker 1: interested in all this other you know, peripheral stuff that

151
00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,559
Speaker 1: a lot of people go after, you know, in the

152
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:16,240
Speaker 1: criminal justice system. That stuff, to me, uh is outside

153
00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,840
Speaker 1: my wheelhouse. I like to understand what science is trying

154
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,840
Speaker 1: to tell me and listen, decomposition in human remains, Dave

155
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,360
Speaker 1: is one of the finest teachers that it's out there.

156
00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,400
Speaker 2: Now. It happens quick, doesn't it. I mean, when when

157
00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,319
Speaker 2: we from the moment we die, our body starts decomposing

158
00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:35,800
Speaker 2: right away. Isn't that correct?

159
00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,280
Speaker 1: Yeah? It does. You can't small ways. Yeah, in small

160
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:44,560
Speaker 1: ways you can't see it, you can't smell it. But yeah,

161
00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:50,160
Speaker 1: at at a cellular level, the sales begin to you know,

162
00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,480
Speaker 1: essentially break down, and you're not going to necessarily see

163
00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,240
Speaker 1: it immediately. And we're going to get into another episode

164
00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,839
Speaker 1: where we're going to be talking about immediate kind of

165
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,959
Speaker 1: of post war changes, but we're kind of taking a

166
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,480
Speaker 1: broad view. You're not going to get like, within within

167
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:11,960
Speaker 1: minutes of death, you're not going to have a foul

168
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,240
Speaker 1: odor emanating from the body that's associated with decomposition. Now,

169
00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,200
Speaker 1: you can't have a foul odor that's emanating from human

170
00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,400
Speaker 1: remains save for instance, if they soil themselves right during

171
00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,800
Speaker 1: the throes of death, and that does, in fact happen.

172
00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:25,200
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen every time.

173
00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,160
Speaker 2: A lot of people say, okay, well doesn't that happen?

174
00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:27,960
Speaker 1: Every single time?

175
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,679
Speaker 2: I thought that wasn't it. I learned it wasn't. But

176
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 2: for the longest time I thought that when a person died,

177
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,920
Speaker 2: everything just let go the spin. There you go, Mary

178
00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:40,880
Speaker 2: christ I'm glad.

179
00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,880
Speaker 1: I'm glad you actually mentioned that because that you know,

180
00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,400
Speaker 1: when you get that that release safer instance of an

181
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:53,600
Speaker 1: individual's bowels. Many times, that will take some time to occur,

182
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:59,120
Speaker 1: and you mentioned the sphincter muscle specifically. You have to

183
00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,600
Speaker 1: have that area of the tissue begin to break down

184
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,760
Speaker 1: so that that tension is no longer there, and if

185
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,280
Speaker 1: there is feces in the bowel, it can release, and

186
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,960
Speaker 1: that does happen. You'll have bladder releases many times. Lots

187
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,120
Speaker 1: of times bladder releases happen. I found when they're in

188
00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,280
Speaker 1: the perimortem, say, when they're in the throes of death,

189
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,880
Speaker 1: you know that that will occur, but you know you

190
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,520
Speaker 1: you don't have it every single time. I think a

191
00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,520
Speaker 1: lot of people labor under this idea that it occurs

192
00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,520
Speaker 1: in every single event like this, and it just doesn't.

193
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,960
Speaker 2: Isn't that because part of its biology that we're all different.

194
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,319
Speaker 2: I mean, like Elvis. When Elvis died, we know that

195
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,320
Speaker 2: he had an impacted colon. Isn't that what that was called?

196
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,199
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, he And a lot of that had to

197
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,360
Speaker 1: do with these kind of opiate based drakes, which you'll

198
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,040
Speaker 1: find consturbated all the time he was, Yeah, he was.

199
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 1: And people that are addicted to things like heroin and morphine,

200
00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,839
Speaker 1: and also any kind of opioid, even if it's some

201
00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,600
Speaker 1: kind of synthetic, you know, thing that has been created

202
00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 1: a lot app it'll essentially lock up the bowels. And

203
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:08,520
Speaker 1: I've done I've done autopsies on individuals or participating in

204
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,400
Speaker 1: autopsies on individuals that are heroin ods, and you'll have

205
00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:17,400
Speaker 1: their entire large bowel with fecal impaction. And it's a

206
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,160
Speaker 1: miserable existence because they can't they can't pass, you know, anything.

207
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,600
Speaker 1: And plus they most of the time they don't eat

208
00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,960
Speaker 1: healthy foods anyway that keep the system rolling. And they're

209
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,040
Speaker 1: they're hydrated either, which plays a big role into it.

210
00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,439
Speaker 1: So it doesn't happen every single time But interesting fact

211
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:40,760
Speaker 1: about about Elvis with his death. You know his I think,

212
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,400
Speaker 1: and I know that you're going to know this, but

213
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,560
Speaker 1: I think his last his last words were I'm I'm

214
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,280
Speaker 1: going to the bathroom to read. I think it's what

215
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:52,000
Speaker 1: he told his girlfriend at the time. Yeah, I need that.

216
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,559
Speaker 1: And so he's he's on the toilet or as my

217
00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,719
Speaker 1: grainyused saying, the code, uh, he's on the commode, and

218
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,920
Speaker 1: and he dies. And did you know that there is

219
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:09,079
Speaker 1: a significant number of people, such a significant number of

220
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,520
Speaker 1: people that are found dead on toilets that we actually

221
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,400
Speaker 1: have a term, a kind of a euphemistic term that

222
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:20,800
Speaker 1: we use in death investigation called toilet sign. And here's why.

223
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,160
Speaker 1: Many folks that do die while seated on the toilet,

224
00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,480
Speaker 1: they have mistaken this urgency to go to the bathroom

225
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,120
Speaker 1: that that is masking an m I they're actually having

226
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,640
Speaker 1: a heart attack. So they will go to the bathroom,

227
00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,360
Speaker 1: sit on a toilet, and many times the strain of

228
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,720
Speaker 1: being on the toilet will push them over the edge.

229
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,439
Speaker 1: So yeah, wow, we literally have I can't tell you

230
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,679
Speaker 1: it's a countless number. At first that you know, when

231
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,439
Speaker 1: I was a young investigator, I didn't think it was

232
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 1: a real thing, and the older guys had told me

233
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 1: that it was a real thing. And so you know

234
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:59,160
Speaker 1: how older guys, you know, they they talked to us

235
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,880
Speaker 1: knuckleheads that are young. You don't believe anything until it's

236
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,280
Speaker 1: proven to you, right, trust me, I've got a twenty

237
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,920
Speaker 1: three year old son, and so when it's demonstrated, you say,

238
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,360
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, they were right. You know, Yeah, I've

239
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,040
Speaker 1: been catching all these cases is their natural desks, but

240
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,000
Speaker 1: I've been catching these cases within visuals on toilets, and

241
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,440
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's legitimate. I don't know if there's ever

242
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,200
Speaker 1: been a definitive scientific study about toilet sign but it's

243
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,280
Speaker 1: a real thing. It's something that we talk about and

244
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,440
Speaker 1: we talked about it for years and years in the field,

245
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:29,880
Speaker 1: and you know, we'll just say, yeah, we have a

246
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:31,160
Speaker 1: toilet sign case today.

247
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:31,640
Speaker 2: Wow.

248
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, and that that that's a real thing that

249
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:34,240
Speaker 1: does happen.

250
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,400
Speaker 2: But one of the things that when we start talking

251
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,640
Speaker 2: about decomposition, and I didn't when you when you first

252
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,160
Speaker 2: mentioned wanting to do this, do you realize that those

253
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:48,840
Speaker 2: of us who follow crime report on crime cover, you know,

254
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 2: crimes that most of us only know the scientific aspect

255
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,120
Speaker 2: of things when people like you are talking on a

256
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,240
Speaker 2: crime show, because most of us are not in an

257
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,360
Speaker 2: academic area. We're not taking you know, your class at school,

258
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,760
Speaker 2: and this is the only way we find out is

259
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,680
Speaker 2: by you sharing your knowledge. Because I don't know what happens.

260
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I really don't. I know that the men

261
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,880
Speaker 2: that I die, that everything stops living because I'm dead.

262
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,160
Speaker 2: And obviously if you're not living, you're dying, which means

263
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,280
Speaker 2: you're heading back to dirt eventually. Yeah, that's all I know.

264
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,720
Speaker 2: I don't know the speed that it happens. I would

265
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,840
Speaker 2: think it'd be very quickly, you know, in a broad sense.

266
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,440
Speaker 2: It look, everything is environmentally dependent, you know. And I've

267
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,040
Speaker 2: mentioned this countless times on.

268
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 1: Our program, where you know, we're referring to uh, the

269
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:48,720
Speaker 1: biggest the biggest factor's heat, you know where you know.

270
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,160
Speaker 1: I've gone on on scenes, man, where I've had multiple

271
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,720
Speaker 1: bodies in a location that all died as a result

272
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:02,160
Speaker 1: of one case in particular, had I think it was

273
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,720
Speaker 1: four guys that had transported dope from Mexico. They were

274
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,240
Speaker 1: in a van and they were tasked with meeting person

275
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,400
Speaker 1: they were gonna to exchange with in a warehouse area

276
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,040
Speaker 1: in Atlanta, actually not too far from Six Legs, Atlanta,

277
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:18,520
Speaker 1: in a industrial park.

278
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:19,200
Speaker 2: And.

279
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,320
Speaker 1: All four of these guys were shot in the van

280
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 1: through the windows and killed and the dope was taken.

281
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,240
Speaker 1: We didn't find their bodies for two months, and they

282
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,640
Speaker 1: were just parked under tree and it's actually a conversion

283
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:34,520
Speaker 1: van that was over there and no one. Some guy

284
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,560
Speaker 1: decided to walk back there and smoke a cigarette and

285
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,600
Speaker 1: when he did, he catches a whiff. Well, when I

286
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 1: opened the door of that van, when I got there,

287
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,880
Speaker 1: liquid came pouring out of the van, and that was

288
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 1: decompositional fluid. And so they'd been there for two months.

289
00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,720
Speaker 1: I've had them even worse than that, where bodies will.

290
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 1: They don't turn into puddles necessarily, but the skin becomes

291
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,200
Speaker 1: very soft and spongy. It's much like a sponge, and

292
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,800
Speaker 1: you can feel it kind of when you place your

293
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:13,200
Speaker 1: hands on the decomposing tissue, it feels like it feels

294
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,879
Speaker 1: almost like the crackling of bubble wrap many times, and

295
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,760
Speaker 1: that's because the cells in that area in some of

296
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,840
Speaker 1: these cases, they kind of expand with these decompositional gases

297
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,440
Speaker 1: that are contained within that area, and you can almost

298
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:33,240
Speaker 1: feel it crackle beneath your fingertips. I've had friends that

299
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,879
Speaker 1: have said that, and this has never happened to me.

300
00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,560
Speaker 1: But I've had people that have said that bodies when

301
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:44,879
Speaker 1: they go to pull on them literally come apart it joints. Now,

302
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,520
Speaker 1: that's never happened with me. I've had I've had the

303
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,800
Speaker 1: manifestation was referred to as skin slippage. And you'll hear

304
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,000
Speaker 1: this in trials. Many times they'll talk about skin slippage,

305
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,080
Speaker 1: for instance, and that's where the epidermis, that top layer

306
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,280
Speaker 1: of skin, even down to the dermis below, the epidermist

307
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,680
Speaker 1: will literally peel off, you know, in your hand and

308
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,240
Speaker 1: that but that takes time, you know, it takes a

309
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,000
Speaker 1: certain amount of time. There's almost like this kind of

310
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,840
Speaker 1: tenderizing factor. If you will give me a little latitude

311
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,680
Speaker 1: there with that that that has to take place. Eventually

312
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,439
Speaker 1: the bodies will in fact dry out, but before they

313
00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,000
Speaker 1: dry out, there's a whole process that occurs before you

314
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 1: ever get to that market. I think it's important to

315
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,480
Speaker 1: understand that, you know, decomposition can mean a variety of

316
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,960
Speaker 1: different things to folks. You know, when when I was

317
00:18:54,040 --> 00:19:00,359
Speaker 1: a kid, I had to build a composting bind in

318
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,960
Speaker 1: the backyard. My mother is. She loves gardening, she always

319
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,640
Speaker 1: has and so everywhere she's lived she's had a composting bent.

320
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,119
Speaker 1: And well what does that mean. Well, you in the

321
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,040
Speaker 1: composting bin, you're gonna plow organic materials in there. I

322
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,880
Speaker 1: remember her putting coffee grounds and eggshells and everything else,

323
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 1: and not to mention all of the leaves from the

324
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,879
Speaker 1: previous spall. And you have to turn it. You have

325
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:24,959
Speaker 1: to turn it. Some people put earthworms in there, all

326
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,720
Speaker 1: kinds of things going. But you're trying to break down

327
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 1: that organic substance that's in there, and it creates this rich,

328
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,360
Speaker 1: you know, kind of rich stirt. And it's interesting, Dave,

329
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,119
Speaker 1: that you said a few months ago that we that

330
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 1: we turn you know, we turned into dust. And you know,

331
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,760
Speaker 1: there's that old Bible verse that, you know, what was

332
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,359
Speaker 1: it from dust you came, and from dust you shall return,

333
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 1: And that that is truly the definition of what happens.

334
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,480
Speaker 1: It just takes some time. It's not it's not some

335
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 1: kind of fantastical movie event. You have to you have

336
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 1: to be down for a long time. But what kicks

337
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 1: this whole thing off is heat, heat and absence of life.

338
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,680
Speaker 1: But you know, kind of the functional definition for decomposition,

339
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 1: how do you define it? Well, it's a disintegration of

340
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 1: body tissues after death is known as decomposition. And I'd

341
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 1: mentioned to you just a moment ago that one of

342
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 1: my one of my favorite characters in Looney Tunes, in

343
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 1: the Looney Tunes universe is the Martian that you know,

344
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,159
Speaker 1: he's got the disintegrator array that he uses, and of

345
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 1: course Bugs always turns it around on him. I don't

346
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 1: think any good Bugs money cartoons ever were made after

347
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 1: probably about nineteen seventy by the way, just my thoughts.

348
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 1: But anyway, you know what does disintegration mean? Well, we

349
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 1: know what integrated is That means to blend right, or

350
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 1: if you have integrated circuits. You know, for instance, if

351
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: you're talking, if you're speaking to somebody that's like an

352
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,399
Speaker 1: electrical engineer, well we're we're actually integrated. All of our

353
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 1: systems are integrated. Well, once that spark of life has

354
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 1: left the body and you no longer have this process

355
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 1: of keeping cells oxygenated, you have cellular respiration that's going on,

356
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,200
Speaker 1: these things over a period of time will actually begin

357
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 1: to pull apart, and they naturally fall apart. And so

358
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 1: that's that's part of the process, and it's something that

359
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 1: we you know.

360
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,959
Speaker 2: That you have to understand, all right, So as you're

361
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 2: going through this entire process too, I guess I'm approaching

362
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 2: it a little bit different and trying to think about

363
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 2: the decomposition because, yeah, because it's not something I'm used

364
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 2: to talking about. You know, when you're talking about the

365
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,399
Speaker 2: roast and the refrigerator. You know, things like that opening

366
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 2: a bad meat from the store, and you get that

367
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: if you know that you're getting something bad. So when

368
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 2: you're talking about this beginning stages here where it's starting

369
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 2: to break down, what does that tell you when you're

370
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 2: coming in as an investigator and looking at things as

371
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 2: you are studying that individual. Because all the time we

372
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,959
Speaker 2: want to know, well, we always want to know the motive,

373
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 2: why did this happen? But when when did this happen?

374
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 2: You know, I've talked about that. You've got to tell

375
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 2: me exactly when this person died, Joe. I need to

376
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 2: know was it before or after dinner? Did they eat

377
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 2: dinner at ten o'clock or eight o'clock? Yeah, And sometimes

378
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 2: those things can't be told by the contents of your stomach.

379
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 2: There's got to be more.

380
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, And if you're looking for me or

381
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 1: any of my colleagues, tell you, and I'm saying to

382
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 1: you in the universal sense, Dave, that when somebody actually died,

383
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: it's an empirical impossibility. And anybody tells you that the

384
00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,640
Speaker 1: can is lying and so you know the short term

385
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: and that's a micro a micro examination you know when

386
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about this on another episode. Even in

387
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 1: that sense, we the best we can do is some

388
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: people say they can do it in three you know,

389
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: within a three hour window. Most of the time, I

390
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: think it's going to be about four to five. If

391
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 1: you cover all your bases. When you have something, yeah,

392
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: if you.

393
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 2: Know, O, there's things surrounding it, because you know, we

394
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 2: build that timeline, and as we're building the timeline of activity,

395
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 2: you can take all that into consideration and narrow it

396
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: down even further based on what you're seeing in the

397
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 2: physical realm of the of the actual decomposition. So yeah,

398
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 2: you're not just blindly finding a body on the street,

399
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 2: you know, right.

400
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you if you can, if you can kind

401
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 1: of well here's the word, integrate some of those circumstantial finds, right, yeah,

402
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: you've you've got a better shot. But broadly, you know,

403
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: when we're talking about decomposition, very broadly, that's that's hard

404
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: to do. It's it's very difficult to particularly if you

405
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: have a body that we listen, we use terms like

406
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 1: early decomposition, modern decomposition, and advanced decomposition, and then you'll

407
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: have skeletonization. So you've got kind of that spectrum of

408
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 1: four things there. When one of the things that you

409
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: have to consider is that there's actually two processs of

410
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: decomposition going on, and kind of the way in my

411
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: simple mind, the way I like to look at it,

412
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: you have autolytic changes in auto mean self, right, So

413
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: you have autolsis that goes on, which is kind of

414
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: body breaking down from within. And if you think about

415
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 1: it from the perspective of a body literally digesting itself,

416
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: that's autolysis. Okay, So you know everything that is contained

417
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: within life when you have cellular respiration on the systems

418
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: or firing ceases to be at that point in time,

419
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 1: so the body begins to kind of from an enzyme standpoint,

420
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 1: begins to kind of digest itself. Then you have future

421
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: faction that goes on, and then you know, in very

422
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: broad terms, you begin to you know, think about changes

423
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 1: that are produced by you know, the action of bacteria

424
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: and micro organisms, and that can that can come like

425
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: in an external manifestation. And then you have, you know,

426
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: if you think about even more broadly, you you have

427
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: the introduction of animals or even insects that are attacking

428
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: the body externally, and then you know, and that's going

429
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 1: to promote decomposition. So there's you've got a lot to

430
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: kind of consider when you come across a body that's

431
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: bloated and rotting and kind of you know, coming to

432
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: part one of the things that's always fascinated me. And uh,

433
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: in my my students at JSU, I'll ask them this

434
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: question and uh and of course I'll get this resounding

435
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 1: sound you know when I give it to them. If

436
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 1: you've ever seen one of these uh steakhouse commercials where

437
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: they'll say we've got beautiful dry aged beef or we

438
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: do wet aging process, you know what they're talking about.

439
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: They're tenderizing those steaks that they have through the process

440
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: of decomposition, you know, and you can have dry age,

441
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: which if you go to if one of my goals

442
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: in life is to try to get a reservation at

443
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: Luger Steakhouse in Manhattan. It's supposed to be the best

444
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: steak in the world, because I think I know where

445
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: the best steak in the world is, and that's Charlie

446
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 1: Steakhouse in New Orleans. So I want to see what

447
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: Lugers is. But they have a.

448
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: We have just set a goal for body bags. You

449
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 2: and I. You've got to take me to Charlie's in

450
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: North I'll.

451
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: Take you to Charlie's. Yeah, I will take you to

452
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: Charlie's and uh and one of the best best dining

453
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: experiences I've ever had. But with Charlie's, Charlie's uses I

454
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: think they used to use a rye agent method. And

455
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: the thing about it is with that they're talking about

456
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: they get this fine cut of beef, and we don't

457
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: like to think about this sort of thing. But you know,

458
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: aged beef is far better to eat than say, for instance,

459
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: if you take it right off the hoof, you have

460
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: to you have to let it, you have to let

461
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: it decompose. And that's that's and they don't use the

462
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 1: term decomposed. They say age. You know, it's it's much

463
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 1: more mellow, you know, it's like a it's like an

464
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: aged whiskey or wine of vintage wine. They try to

465
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: put it in those terms, but what it comes down

466
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: to is decomposing so that we can eat it, you know,

467
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: so that it's tender for us to eat.

468
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: So we're really not talking about getting fresh meat. We're

469
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: talking about getting I mean, I'm kind of grossed up

470
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,239
Speaker 2: by that, Joe. I didn't know that. I really did.

471
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 2: I thought, if I go down here to where they've

472
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: got this, there's a bunch of cattle out here, and

473
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: they've got some pretty fat ones. Look good. Yeah, that

474
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: if I was to get that one skin that you

475
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: take care of the hide, I want that turn that

476
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 2: into a steak, like to have that tomorrow morning with

477
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,479
Speaker 2: my eggs. That's not going to be worth eating compared

478
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: to something that.

479
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's not. It's probably edible, but it's

480
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: not going to match up to Charlie's or from rumor

481
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 1: has it to Lugers in Manhattan because they have aged

482
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,479
Speaker 1: that beef. Well. In terms of human decomposition, there's an

483
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: aging process that goes on and if it's not controlled,

484
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: which in the sense of you know, when people are

485
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 1: eating beef. That's a controlled environment. If a body is

486
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: left out, say in the wild or even in a house,

487
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: and the body is not refrigerated, the body is going

488
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: to do what bodies do. And look, this can be

489
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: stemmed through the process of what mortuary scientists do, and

490
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: that is infuse the body or profuse the body with

491
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: embalming fluid and they cease that process you know of,

492
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: or slow it down decompositional process. It kind of freezes

493
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: it for that moment. And with decomposition, though, you have

494
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: to get there early in order to stop it, because this,

495
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: I can tell you, with decomposition, once it starts, it's

496
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: like a barreling freight train. It's really hard to get

497
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: to handle on it. Okay. And so when you hear

498
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: people say, well, and this is non trauma related. You

499
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: have some elderly person that has been not found for

500
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: a week or two weeks in a home and the

501
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: mortuary says, well, you're gonna have to have closed casket.

502
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: People say, well, why would you have to have closed casket? Well,

503
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: it because the body has been decomposing for that period

504
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: of time, maybe under the most adverse conditions. You can

505
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: imagine where you know there's no there's no air con

506
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: that's that's operating. Maybe there's subject to I don't know,

507
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: flies and everything else that's in, and there's there's no

508
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: amount of restorate of work. I guess there is. You'd

509
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: have to pay a lot of money, but there's really

510
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: no amount of restorated work that you can go in

511
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: and you can patch this person up so that they're

512
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,719
Speaker 1: presentable for an open casket. So the absence of an

513
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: open casket does not necessarily mean this is a trauma

514
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: related event. Many times it can be decompositional related.

515
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: And okay, let me back to just on decomposition. When

516
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: you're talking, you know, twenty four to thirty six hours, right,

517
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: you're going to start seeing outward signs of the decomposition

518
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: of the body, right, Yes, okay, in that first twenty

519
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: four hours, and in particular, I'm thinking about in Idaho,

520
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: in Moscow, Idaho, where the four college students were murdered,

521
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 2: and we believe based on the information which I really

522
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: want to talk to you about that timeline, but what

523
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: we understand is that sometime between four and four thirty

524
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: in the morning, all four of these students were murdered

525
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: by knife. But their bodies were not found by law

526
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: enforcement until eight hours later. All right, is there going

527
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: to be I mean, is there going to be significant

528
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: changes in the body during that eight hour time period?

529
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: Not in the broad sense that we're in a macro

530
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: sense that we're talking about here, real broadly, where you're

531
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: going to have bloating and all those things that are

532
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: commonly associated with decomposition, you're not going to have it

533
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: in there. However, I think that it's key that we

534
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: come back and address that the Idaho killings when we

535
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: discuss the micro the micro sense of decomposition and those

536
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: changes within that eleven hour framework you're not going to

537
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: see or eleven to twelve hour framework, you're not going

538
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: to see much happen. It's with how can I say

539
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: this with an external manifestation which can be appreciated with

540
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: the unaided eye, you know, where you're examining the body. However,

541
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: within the twenty four to thirty six hour and again,

542
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: these these brackets of time are very very broad. One

543
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 1: of the things that will happen and something that kind

544
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: of manifests itself if everybody that's listening to me will

545
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: take your right hand and place it above the level

546
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: of your pelvis on the right side of your app

547
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: to when that approximates the area where your appendix is.

548
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: No one can really explain it. But one of the

549
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: things that we see manifested in decomposition, like an external manifestation,

550
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: is that that area you'll get a focal area of

551
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: greenish discoloration that will occur there, and it truly is.

552
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: It turns kind of a green color, and that many

553
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: many times doesn't happen in every case, but many times

554
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: it'll be you know, that's generally about twenty four to

555
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,719
Speaker 1: thirty six hours. Well, Morgan, why is that important? Well,

556
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: it's important because if I have that manifestation that is occurring,

557
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: that's a marker in time. Okay. So if I look

558
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: at the body and I have no other information, if

559
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: I'm just visually eyeball in the body and I see

560
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: I see you know, this greenish coloration on the abdomen,

561
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: I can say, Wow, this might be an indications person's

562
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: been down at least twenty four to thirty six hours.

563
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: And you roll that into the idea that maybe their

564
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: limbs are flaccid, and flaccid means flexible, okay, or bendable. Well,

565
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: that means that riger's already left the body.

566
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 2: Okay, so I gotta know, yeah, because I, like many people,

567
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: don't know how quickly does rigormort to set in and

568
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: how quickly does it let go. Because we all know

569
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 2: of stories that we've told. As a matter of fact,

570
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 2: we had one not that long ago where two gentlemen

571
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: killed the third guy that they were having a three

572
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: way party with and went to get a tub at

573
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: home depot or wherever. And when they came back, the

574
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: guy was stiff and they had to break his legs

575
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: and beat him, you know, his body to make it

576
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: soft enough to get in the top. If they just waited,

577
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: how long would they have to wait for the body too?

578
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: Or twenty four to thirty six hours? Okay, twenty four

579
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: to thirty thirty six hours, and uh, it's going to

580
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: remain fixed. And that's the one thing I never can

581
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: understand about people that that desecreate bodies beyond what they've

582
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: already been desecrated. Where they get you know, axes and

583
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: these sorts of things, and you know, try to chop

584
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: the legs off or whatever if you wait. And again,

585
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: obviously tom plays a factor because anybody that brings death

586
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: upon another person. They're not wanting to hang around and

587
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: be patient about it. The body's become flashed again. They

588
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 1: become what's termed malleable again, so that you can bend them,

589
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: you can contract them all. You know, Roger Morris doesn't

590
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 1: hang around forever and ever eight minutes just not one

591
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: of those things that occurs, particularly in an unembalmed state.

592
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: So you know, it will leave, it dissipates over a

593
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 1: period of time. But when you're looking out over you know,

594
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: kind of broadly over this the spectrum of death with decomposition,

595
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: you you look for other signs as as you march

596
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: down that timeline, Like after you get beyond that that

597
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: greenish discoloration that takes place on the abdomen, you're talking

598
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 1: about thirty six to forty eight hours, Uh, the body

599
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: will become or start to distend, which means it'll you'll

600
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: see the first signs of bloating. You know, the abdomen

601
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: begins to swell up well, and and the face will

602
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: swell too. You know, you'll see the face beginning to kind.

603
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: Of if a person has had their appendix out, yeah,

604
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 2: does there still is there still a greenish type of

605
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 2: color yeah.

606
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, manifests down there, and I don't know why it is,

607
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: because that's kind of the uh at that end where

608
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: you have the vernis called the verniform appendix down there.

609
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: Verniform is like I think it's the Latin word for

610
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: worm is actually what it translates into.

611
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: It.

612
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: It will still manifest down that area even you know,

613
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: if an individual is absent their appendix and it's down

614
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: in that that area, I don't know if it because

615
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: it's on the opposite end of the large vowel from

616
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: where you know, the rectum is okay, so it's kind

617
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: of looped all the way around there, and you know

618
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: that's where the food that's being digested in the you know,

619
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: in the small intestine dumps into that part of the intestine,

620
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: the lower right side if you're talking about the right

621
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: side of the versus body, and then it traverses from

622
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: the uscending large vowel to the where it crosses over

623
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: into the descending bowel and eventually it is eliminated for

624
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: in the body. I don't know if that plays a

625
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: role into it, but you know, you couple that and

626
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: you go to another stage where you've got this kind

627
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: of slight bloating that's going on and with and particularly

628
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: the facial notice it. You'll get kind of the face,

629
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: we'll have a swollen appearance, and you'll also see the

630
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 1: first signs of something. Here's another term they use in

631
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: in butchery with with beef. It doesn't mean the same thing,

632
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: but you'll we use this term called marbling. And marbling

633
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: if you imagine if you've got a spider web that

634
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: would normally be I don't know, spider webs are gray white.

635
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: If you imagine a black spider web superimposed upon a

636
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: body and it's got these kind of weird lines that

637
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: run all over the place. It's it's black, dark, dark black. Well,

638
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 1: that's like blood that is decomposing in the vessels, and

639
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: it's showing through the face. So you'll see it first

640
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: manifest kind of around the jowls and the cheeks and

641
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 1: that sort of thing the neck, and that'll extend out

642
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: as time goes by, so you'll have these kind of

643
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: curve linear lines you know, that run over, you know,

644
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: all over the body. And that's actually what we refer

645
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: to as marveling. But again, Dave, that brings us back

646
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: to this benchmarking of time that's you know, you're going

647
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: to talk about top end. That's that's going to take

648
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: about forty eight hours, you know, with an unattended body

649
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: that's found ideally in a protected environment, you know, like

650
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 1: in a house where you know, you don't have any

651
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: kind of postmortem feasting that's going on with animals or

652
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: things like that. And again, the more of these little

653
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: markers that we can get as death investigators, it allows us,

654
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: through science and the natural biological process, to tell the

655
00:38:53,920 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 1: story of the dead. I know a lot of people

656
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: are fans of dried fruit that are listening out there.

657
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: I see it everywhere I go, you know, in various

658
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 1: grocery stores and this sort of thing. I've never really

659
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: developed a taste for it. It's kind of like when

660
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: I was a kid. I don't know about you, Dave,

661
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: but when I was a kid, I was made to

662
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: eat beef liver. I can't do it anymore. And the

663
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,879
Speaker 1: reason I can't do it anymore is that beef liver

664
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: looks just like human liver to me, you know, and

665
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: not participate in all those autopsies for all those years.

666
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: But with the dried fruit, one of the things I

667
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: think about when I see it is a term that

668
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: we refer to is desication, because I call it desiccated.

669
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: You know, it's dried, you know, and desiccation or the

670
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,479
Speaker 1: drying of limbs and particularly our penages like our feet,

671
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: your toes, feet, fingers in your hands. The more peripheral

672
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: you are to that kind of center core in a body,

673
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: the higher the probability is that area is going to

674
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 1: dry out. And that's what desiccation is. So if you're

675
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: if you you know, you couple that with the the

676
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 1: bloating that you see, and that's the next step that

677
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: you move on to is going to be manifested. The

678
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: idea that the extremities and I'm talking about it, if

679
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 1: you'll just touch your fingertips or tips of your toes

680
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: right now, those areas out of every other location in

681
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: the body will become dry first. And so the fingers,

682
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: the fingers actually take on an appearance like you know,

683
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 1: when you're little and your mom tells you, you know,

684
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: let me look at your hands, how long you've been

685
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: in the pool. You get this kind of shriveled appearance here.

686
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: That's basically the way it looks. The only difference is

687
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: is that with the tips of fingers and decomposition, and

688
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: it happens to the nose as well. It'll turn, it'll

689
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: turn kind of a black discoloration and it's dried out.

690
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 1: There's no more moisture, you know, left in that environment.

691
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: And so if we benchmark that time, you know, you're

692
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: talking about probably about forty eight to sixty hours down

693
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: range after death. At that point in time when you're

694
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: you know, you're kind of pacing yourself through the scene.

695
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: That's why it's important at a scene that you you

696
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: don't want to miss anything. But at the scene, particularly

697
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: for the purposes of contextualizing things, it's important to be

698
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: able to see to see it for what it is,

699
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: you know, at the scene, and be able to document

700
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: that you observe that there, you know, before you remove

701
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 1: the body at you know, at the scene and take

702
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 1: take the body to the corner's office of the medical

703
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: examiner's office where it's going to be examined.

704
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 2: You mentioned about the nose, and I'm thinking it is

705
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: Michael Jackson. Yeah, I had so many surgeries on his nose.

706
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: He give had a prosthetic end to his nose.

707
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Can I tell you, Uh, there are a couple

708
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: of times a couple of images I have seen of

709
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: him over the years where it actually made my mind

710
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 1: drift back to people that I when I examine their bodies,

711
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: their nose had that same appearance. It's kind of dried,

712
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: and it gives it a, I don't know how to

713
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: say it, a very diminutive appearance, as it's not robust

714
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 1: and full like you see and lie Fingers in particular,

715
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: fingers are really creepy on the dead because when they're shrivelled,

716
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: they're shriveled at the ends. They almost have like a

717
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 1: claw like manifestation. What's really interesting, as fingers shrivelled and

718
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: toast rivel, the abdomen actually begins to bloat. So you've

719
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: got this kind of juxtaposition. And with the bloating of

720
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: the abdomen you're talking, you know, seventy two hours, that

721
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 1: begins to happen. So the body is swelling, and what's

722
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: happening is all this gas is building up in the body,

723
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: and as it builds up, one of the foulus substances

724
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 1: known to man begins to exude from the body, and

725
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: it generally will any orifice in the body it'll come through,

726
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 1: and you see it a lot in the nose, the mouth,

727
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: and it's it's called purging. So you've got this cellular

728
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: substance where the cells are breaking down and it's a

729
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: combination of blood and other elements and it creates this flow.

730
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: And I think i'd shown this image to you, Dave,

731
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: of this fellow that city in a chair. Uh, and

732
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: he's swollen bloated. And you know that guy, Dave in life,

733
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: he only weighed about one hundred and sixty pounds.

734
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 2: Oh my yeah, but punds man that'd been shot in

735
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 2: the chest, I know.

736
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: And all of the blood that you see on his chest,

737
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: everything that you see on his chest is not blood.

738
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: Well it's blood in it, that's that's actually perge fluid

739
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: or detail fluid. Yeah, and it's pouring. It's coming out

740
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: of his nose, in his mouth.

741
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: You're talking about the picture of the guy sitting in

742
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 2: the chair, like yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, wow. Okay,

743
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: Just so y'all know, and I'm not going to include

744
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: this on I'm not going to show you guys this

745
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 2: picture that picture for that, but it's in this presentation.

746
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 2: And I opened the page and Joe explains these things

747
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 2: to me ahead of time. It's not going to make

748
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 2: me look like a total dummy. And I opened that

749
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: picture and I'm not kidding. I thought the guy had

750
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 2: been shot because and that he was discovered a day

751
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 2: or two later. I didn't realize that this was a

752
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 2: fairly small guy and died of natural causes.

753
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: I've got a fascinating story that goes along with that,

754
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: because there was a very young police officer that called

755
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 1: my office the day that he was the first person

756
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: to show up. It was a welfare check they'd gone

757
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: out on and the guy lived alone. He had been

758
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: divorced for a while, and he was I think he

759
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: was like in his late fifties and he was working.

760
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: You seeing the image, you're still wearing T shirt with

761
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: jeans and work boots. And he sat in his chair

762
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,439
Speaker 1: and had a heart attack and died. Well, the young cop.

763
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 1: And I'm not judging this guy because I would have

764
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: thought the same thing. He called me from a landline

765
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: at that time. This was many years ago, and said, yeah,

766
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: we need you out here immediately. I think we've got

767
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: a guy that has been beaten to death. And he

768
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 1: even said at that time someone may have used a

769
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: hatchet on him or an axe. And when you see

770
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: this it's so grotesque and over the top, that's what

771
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: you're thinking. You know, your mind automatically goes to that,

772
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: because where could all this the staining come from. And

773
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: it's even contrasted by the fact that the guy's wearing

774
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: a white T shirt. Well, the guy has no trauma

775
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: to his body. That's all decomp fluid that it's It

776
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: is one of the most disgusting substances known to man.

777
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: And once it makes contact with anything you're wearing, your

778
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: clothing or anything like that, go ahead and start the

779
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 1: bonfire and burn those clothes because you'll never they're unusable

780
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: after that point. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

781
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: body