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Speaker 1: We're waiting for the New York City Donald Trump trial

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Speaker 1: to come to a close. Unfortunately, we're going to have

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Speaker 1: to wait until after Memorial Day for closing arguments as

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Speaker 1: well as jury deliberations. Of course, President Trump has been

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Speaker 1: charged with falsifying thirty four business records to hide Michael

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Speaker 1: Cohen's reimbursement for what they're calling one hundred and thirty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollar hush money payment that he made to Stormy Daniels.

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Speaker 1: So far, even CNN and MSNBC admit that a lot

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Speaker 1: of this has been a bust that relying on a

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Speaker 1: criminal like Michael Cohen, who so far is the only

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Speaker 1: person who is guilty of committing campaign finance violation, who

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Speaker 1: is guilty of lying. You know, he pled guilty to

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Speaker 1: all this stuff back in twenty eighteen. We also found

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Speaker 1: out through cross examination that Michael Cohen admitted to stealing

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Speaker 1: sixty thousand dollars from Donald Trump, which even CNN admitted

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Speaker 1: is a higher degree of a crime than what Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump is charged with. And even going back to when

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Speaker 1: Alvin Bragg initially charged Donald Trump, we know that he

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Speaker 1: elevated a misdemeanor to a felony and to elevate a

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Speaker 1: misdemeanor to a felony. That had to have meant that

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump allegedly falsified business records in an effort to

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Speaker 1: conceal or commit another crime. But Alvin Bragg never laid

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Speaker 1: out what that other crime allegedly is. So has the

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Speaker 1: prosecution been able to do that so far? We're going

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Speaker 1: to have defense attorney Lexi Rigden on the show to

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Speaker 1: tell us has the prosecution done that? And then also

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Speaker 1: how problematic for them has it been that Michael Cohen

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Speaker 1: is the only one tying Donald Trump to doing anything improper,

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Speaker 1: to committing a crime, to doing anything wrong. But he's

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Speaker 1: the guy who has lied, He's the guy who admitted

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Speaker 1: to stealing from his former employer. So where is this heading?

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Speaker 1: What to expect? What does this all mean? And has

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Speaker 1: the prosecution done its job? Stay tuned, let's see. I

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Speaker 1: appreciate you taking time to come on the show and

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Speaker 1: hopefully break down this sort of crazy trial for this

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Speaker 1: let us know where things stand right now. So I

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Speaker 1: appreciate you making the time. Oh happy to do it.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I guess

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Speaker 1: you know we'll start out. Why wait so long? To

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Speaker 1: do closing arguments.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think that that's more of a

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Speaker 2: scheduling issue than anything. I think that the judge probably

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Speaker 2: does not want to necessarily work on you know, the

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Speaker 2: Thursday or the Friday before Memorial Day weekend. Everybody wants

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Speaker 2: a break. It might honestly just be as simple as

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Speaker 2: scheduling and also giving the attorneys time to prepare, because

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Speaker 2: this has been with the exception of Wednesdays, when the

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Speaker 2: court is usually off, this has been like go, go go,

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Speaker 2: So they might just need a little bit of a breather,

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Speaker 2: to be honest, and then you don't really necessarily want

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Speaker 2: to give the closing this week, and then the jury

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Speaker 2: is gone for you know, holiday weekend, and then they

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Speaker 2: you know, by the time they come back, they've forgotten everything.

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Speaker 1: So it makes sense to me why they're doing it

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Speaker 1: that way, you know, I mean there is a concern

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Speaker 1: that you know, look, these jurors live in a super

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Speaker 1: liberal city where you know, the majority of people there

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Speaker 1: are probably hate Donald Trump and think he's you know,

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Speaker 1: like the anti Christ. And now they're going to be

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Speaker 1: going back to you know, their friends and neighbors and

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Speaker 1: sort of subjected to opinions and news coverage and they're

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Speaker 1: not sequestered. Is there a possibility that perhaps that's why

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Speaker 1: this has been delayed to allow that to happen. No,

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Speaker 1: I don't think so.

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Speaker 2: I really think it's more of a scheduling thing, and

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Speaker 2: I haven't heard. I haven't necessarily even heard from either side.

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Speaker 2: Of course I'm not sitting in the courtroom, but I

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Speaker 2: hadn't heard that there was any push to have it

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Speaker 2: done immediately. So I think it's more of just a

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Speaker 2: scheduling issue. There's a holiday weekend coming up. Everyone's going

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Speaker 2: to come back fresh and rested, hopefully, and then the

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Speaker 2: jury's going to start deliberating. The plan is that the

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Speaker 2: jury starts liberating right after the closings are done. And

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Speaker 2: if they wanted to be you know, if these people

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Speaker 2: are actually going home and looking at news and going

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Speaker 2: on social media and talking to friends and family, they

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Speaker 2: then if that's the type of jurors these that there are,

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Speaker 2: you know, one or two or all of them, then

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Speaker 2: they were doing it.

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Speaker 1: The entire time anyway, I mean it did. I think they.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember the exact number of the individuals who

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Speaker 1: were interviewed, but you know, more than half where are

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Speaker 1: thrown out because they said they couldn't be impartial, which

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Speaker 1: I think is the difficulty obviously of you know, New

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Speaker 1: York City. Yeah, And I think that's a difficulty.

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Speaker 2: And I mean I think about something it start contrast

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Speaker 2: to what is being prosecuted here. You think of like

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Speaker 2: the Brian Coberger case in Idaho, where that's not a

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Speaker 2: Obviously New York is the biggest city in America. Idaho

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Speaker 2: is a relatively business place with not a huge population,

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Speaker 2: and they're even going to have a problem there finding

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Speaker 2: an impartial jury. So I think that when you have

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Speaker 2: a high profile case and a polarizing defendant, which you

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Speaker 2: could argue that Brian Koberger is kind of a polarizing defendant,

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Speaker 2: you're going to have a hard time regardless. But I

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Speaker 2: think that for Donald Trump, it's probably uniquely difficult because

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Speaker 2: it would be hard to find somebody that doesn't have

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Speaker 2: an opinion on him.

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Speaker 1: But I guess, do we have an impartial judge in

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Speaker 1: this case? I mean from what Trump is saying and

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Speaker 1: what from his supporters are saying. No, I mean that

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Speaker 1: the judge.

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Speaker 2: Has definitely made some rulings that call into question his

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Speaker 2: you know, partiality or impartiality banning a federal elections person

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Speaker 2: from testifying. I mean, there are certain decisions that were

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Speaker 2: made that could certainly call into question whether the judge is.

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Speaker 1: Biased or not.

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Speaker 2: Of course, I'm sure if you had the judge on

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Speaker 2: this show, he'd say, no, I was acting within the

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Speaker 2: scope of my duties as a judge and trying to

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Speaker 2: rule in partially. And you know, we got the defense

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Speaker 2: got some wins with me, and the prosecution got some

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Speaker 2: wins with me. And I'm here to call balls stripes.

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Speaker 2: But I think a lot of things go against I mean,

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Speaker 2: any defendant is kind of in you're the defendant.

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Speaker 1: You're even though the state.

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Speaker 2: Is the one that actually has the burden of proof

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Speaker 2: and is the only party to the case that has

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Speaker 2: to prove anything, you're on the defensive as a defendant.

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Speaker 1: But I guess, should a judge who has given money

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Speaker 1: to uh an individual's political opponent and whose daughter's profiting

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Speaker 1: off of the trial be overseeing this case, you would

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Speaker 1: certainly hope not. I mean, you know, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: so it's very hard to uh, it's very hard to

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Speaker 1: give this judge' tron the benefit of the doubt, considering

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Speaker 1: the fact that he has demonstrated in the past that

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Speaker 1: he has politically biased as is his family, right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you would not as an animist against Donald Trump, oh,

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Speaker 1: which is very evident by donations he's made.

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Speaker 2: If you're Donald Trump and you're his attorneys, that is

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Speaker 2: the last person that you want sitting on the bench

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Speaker 2: in your trial. I mean, plain and simple, regardless of

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Speaker 2: whether some of his rulings may have been fair. Yes,

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Speaker 2: at a sixty thousand foot level, you would not want

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Speaker 2: je Rashaan sitting on the case if you're Donald Trump,

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Speaker 2: given what happened behind the scenes with his daughter and

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Speaker 2: his political donations. So I guess, how does a you

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Speaker 2: know what seems to be in you know, I think

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Speaker 2: evidence by the fact a biased judge. Does that lead

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Speaker 2: to a bias jury then, well that's.

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Speaker 1: An interesting question.

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Speaker 2: I mean the jury, they are the finder of fact,

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Speaker 2: so they are tasked with deciding whether the state has

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Speaker 2: proven beyond a reasonable doubt what they're claiming. However, the

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Speaker 2: judge can kind of put his thumb on the scale

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Speaker 2: by making certain rulings, so for example, by not allowing

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Speaker 2: an expert that Trump wanted to call about elections violations

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Speaker 2: and election contributions. Then, in effect, the jury is precluded

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Speaker 2: from hearing that evidence, which might have been favorable to Trump,

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Speaker 2: and the judge is the one who precluded it. So

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Speaker 2: the judge is is kind of calling the shots about

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Speaker 2: what the jury is even allowed to consider. And so

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Speaker 2: in that way, the judge does have an influence over

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Speaker 2: the jury. And that's no different than any judge in

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Speaker 2: any random criminal case who was letting a piece of

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Speaker 2: evidence in that one side doesn't want to have get in.

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Speaker 2: If the jury has the opportunity to consider that evidence

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Speaker 2: or not considered the evidence, then the judge is having

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Speaker 2: effect on the ultimate outcome of the preceding, which is

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Speaker 2: why criminal trials are just so. The consequences are significant

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Speaker 2: obviously in criminal trials because you could be denying somebody's freedom,

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Speaker 2: and that's why there are just so many appeals in

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Speaker 2: criminal cases. There are so many things where you can

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Speaker 2: play Monday morning quarterback and say that the judge didn't

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Speaker 2: do this.

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Speaker 1: Or that, right, you know, But again, I think someone

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Speaker 1: would get the benefit of the doubt if they hadn't

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Speaker 1: donated to if he hadn't a dot exactly oh by it, right,

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Speaker 1: So I think he's sort of he has lost the

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Speaker 1: ability to be given there's no deference given to him

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Speaker 1: because he has lost that. He forgot, he gave that

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Speaker 1: up by being a biased, you know, a politically biased judge.

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Speaker 1: Why why not allow Brad Smith, the former FEC commissioner,

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Speaker 1: to testify. Obviously he's an expert witness. They're trying to

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Speaker 1: allege that some sort of campaign finance violation took place, so,

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Speaker 1: you know, why not have Brad Smith. I think that.

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Speaker 2: The theory from the court, and obviously the prosecution would

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Speaker 2: have objected, was that it's the judge's role to instruct

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Speaker 2: the jury on the law. It is not an expert

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Speaker 2: witnesses role to instruct the jury on the law. The

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Speaker 2: jury is there to determine what the facts are, what's

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Speaker 2: true and what's not true, and it's the judge's job

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Speaker 2: to instruct on the law. And going back to what

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Speaker 2: you said about his campaign donation, I'm going to assume,

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Speaker 2: obviously not part of Trump's defense team.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to assume that.

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Speaker 2: They threw the they had, you know, a lot of

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Speaker 2: pretrial motions.

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Speaker 1: And had that been I had the fact of.

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Speaker 2: His donations been something that would have required a recusal,

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Speaker 2: then he would have but for whatever they would have

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Speaker 2: gotten and recused or at least made a huge.

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Speaker 1: Issue of that.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, judges are very are usually not willing to recuse

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Speaker 2: themselves because that would require judges admitting, yeah, you know what,

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Speaker 2: you're right, I can't be impartial, and no judges, I

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Speaker 2: mean judges rarely do that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're just it's a pride thing.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we have it in courtrooms every day across America,

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Speaker 2: where somebody says that I think that this judge is

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Speaker 2: biased for this reason, and there might be good reasons.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the judge knew one.

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Speaker 2: Of the parties in passing, maybe they used to go

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Speaker 2: to the same country club or something. And most of

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Speaker 2: the time the judges are like, no, this is not

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Speaker 2: a big deal, and I'm gonna still be able to

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Speaker 2: rule fairly and impartially. So unfortunately he was not dealt

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Speaker 2: in good hand with Judge Marshawan. And then by the

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Speaker 2: same token, not to get into it, but the classified

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Speaker 2: documents case, the Democrats are saying that she's too good

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Speaker 2: to Donald Trump, that she's she was appointed by him,

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Speaker 2: Eileen Cannon, and so he he got the the through

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Speaker 2: the long straw for lack of a better word with

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Speaker 2: that judge.

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Speaker 1: So those arguments are being made both ways. We've got

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Speaker 1: to take a quick commercial break. More on the trial.

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Speaker 1: On the other side, can Mashawan instruct the jury on

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Speaker 1: what the campaign finance law laws are when it's you know,

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Speaker 1: most campaign finance experts say that it's convoluted, there's gray area.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so, has the judge demonstrated that he even

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Speaker 1: understands the law? Well?

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Speaker 2: I think the fundamental problem with that is that the

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Speaker 2: defense and the trial watchers who are in there every

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Speaker 2: single day and reading the transcripts every day are basically

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Speaker 2: saying that we they still don't really know what Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump is alleged to have violated, which was the subject

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Speaker 2: of a lot of I think it was even the

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Speaker 2: subject of motion practice that was It's been just the

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Speaker 2: subject of a lot of controversy, and rightfully so that

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Speaker 2: to take this from a misdemeanor of a record keeping

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Speaker 2: issue to a felony, you have to show that he

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Speaker 2: was that these records were made to conceal another crime,

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Speaker 2: and the defense has been saying that it's just not

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Speaker 2: clear what other crime that was. So to the extent

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Speaker 2: that Mrshawn is actually going to instruct the jury and

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Speaker 2: what the law is. I mean, I'm not sure that

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Speaker 2: Marshon is actually going to be instructing them on campaign

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Speaker 2: foleance finance law, because I think the prosecutors have said

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Speaker 2: that he violated various various laws, state campaign finance law,

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Speaker 2: federal campaign finance laws. So to the extent to which

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Speaker 2: the jury is going to be instructed on the law

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Speaker 2: pertaining to that, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: And if it was clear that Trump had, you know,

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Speaker 1: falsified these business records, which is what they're alleging, in

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Speaker 1: the name of concealing or committing another crime, but Alvin

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Speaker 1: brag never laid out what that other crime is. As

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Speaker 1: you just mentioned, it still seems ambiguous as to what

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Speaker 1: that is. So, you know, why was this case ever

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Speaker 1: brought to trial to begin with? If that's never with that,

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Speaker 1: I know, if he was incapable of laying that out

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Speaker 1: at the at the beginning.

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Speaker 2: That's a good question. That's That's what everybody's been saying,

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Speaker 2: is that it's just a political witch hunt, and I

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Speaker 2: think that across the political spectrum. When the case started,

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Speaker 2: you saw kind of a you know, I watch I

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Speaker 2: try to watch all the networks, and sometimes it's not

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Speaker 2: so easy to have to sit through, but I try

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Speaker 2: to get it God bless right. I try to get

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Speaker 2: a taste for what everybody's saying, especially when I'm prepping

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Speaker 2: to talk about certain things. And in the beginning it was, oh,

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Speaker 2: they have this really strong case, and David Pepper is,

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Speaker 2: you know, a really strong witness. And now it's kind

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Speaker 2: of transition. Michael Collin was such an utter and complete

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Speaker 2: disaster as a witness that I think that people even

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Speaker 2: on the left are now looking at this, at least

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Speaker 2: the pundits that are that are on the networks on

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Speaker 2: the left and say, geez, I mean this is you know,

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Speaker 2: for lack of a more eloquoi, we'd put it like

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Speaker 2: this just isn't good. I mean, you have this the

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Speaker 2: star witness, who is the one that really needed to

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Speaker 2: kind of tell the jury exactly what happened and what

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Speaker 2: was in Trump's mindset. And he's secretly recording Trump. He's

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Speaker 2: stealing money from the Trump organization. He's caught in lies

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Speaker 2: about discussions why he was calling the bodyguard because he

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Speaker 2: was being harassed by a fourteen year old as opposed

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Speaker 2: to calling the former president about the hush money payment

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Speaker 2: like he really just stepped in it, and his actions

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Speaker 2: prior to the trial for years and slamming Donald Trump,

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Speaker 2: and during the trial, I mean, you have your star

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Speaker 2: witness going on TikTok and talking about how how the

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Speaker 2: defendant should be in prison. That is horrible. It is

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Speaker 2: a horrible, horrible look for the prosecution well and also

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Speaker 2: I think a horrible look for the judge in the

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Speaker 2: sense that Donald Trump has been you know, had a

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Speaker 2: gag order. But then you know Michael Cohen and Stormy

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Speaker 2: Daniels and all of the people who hate him, can

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Speaker 2: you know, as you mentioned, go on TikTok and slam him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's.

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Speaker 2: It's been a circus to say the very least. And

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Speaker 2: if I were the prosecutor, I think that had I

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Speaker 2: been able to put on the case without calling Michael Cohen,

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Speaker 2: I would have because there are so many landmines with him.

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Speaker 1: There are so many things that.

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Speaker 2: He said, that cheeto, dusted demon, calling him a d bag,

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Speaker 2: like all the things that they brought up at the trial.

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Speaker 1: You said this, you said this, You said this, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I did that. Sounds like something I said, yep, I

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Speaker 1: said that too. I don't see how this jury doesn't

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Speaker 1: just look.

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Speaker 2: At this guy who's also a thief who admitted that

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Speaker 2: on the stand, and give him a shred of you know,

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Speaker 2: take take anything he says.

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Speaker 1: As as truth.

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Speaker 2: Or something that should even be listened to when this

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Speaker 2: person is so focused, singularly focused on getting Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: in as much trouble as he possibly can.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and what I mean even CNN has admitted that,

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Speaker 1: you know, Michael Cohen admitting to stealing the sixty thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars from Trump is a higher degree of a crime

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Speaker 1: than what Donald Trump is being charged with, so that

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Speaker 1: they're essentially, you know, so clearly the interest here on

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Speaker 1: behalf of Alvin brad On, behalf of you know, the Manhattanier,

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Speaker 1: on behalf of the judge is not rectifying crime. It's

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Speaker 1: just you know, to get Donald Trump is what it

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Speaker 1: looks like.

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Speaker 2: No stealing sixty thousand dollars, helping yourself to sixty thousand dollars,

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Speaker 2: and and to your point, you know, sitting there and

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Speaker 2: testifying in a trial for somebody who is who would

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Speaker 2: only be facing a misdemeanor. Had this actually actually the

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Speaker 2: statute of limitations had already passed in terms of the misdemeanor.

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Speaker 2: They wouldn't even be here but for the fact that

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Speaker 2: they revived it by charging it as a felony. Essentially,

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Speaker 2: the fact that that person is up there saying, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I stole sixty thousand dollars from the defendant that we're

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Speaker 2: actually sitting here to try to put in prison is

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Speaker 2: it's really astounding. I mean, what's gone on, especially since

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Speaker 2: Cohen's take in the stand, is jaw dropping, and there

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Speaker 2: still has not been.

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Speaker 1: Proof that.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you could possibly prove it because nobody

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Speaker 2: knows what was in Donald Trump's head and there are

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Speaker 2: no there are no recordings or anything to this effect.

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Speaker 2: They can't prove that Donald Trump didn't make this payment

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Speaker 2: just because he didn't want negative publicity surrounding his marriage.

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Speaker 2: And obviously, if you're running for president and you're the

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Speaker 2: front runner, you're the Republican nominee, you're going to have

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Speaker 2: increased level of scrutiny based on affairs or misdeeds you

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Speaker 2: allegedly did. And so they can't prove what was in

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Speaker 2: his mindset, which is really important. They can't prove that

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Speaker 2: he did this for the purpose of influencing the campaign,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to just keeping trying to keep some peace

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Speaker 2: semblance of peace at.

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Speaker 1: Home more in the trial, but first. Since October seventh,

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Speaker 1: Israelis are living with the harsh reality of terror every day.

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Speaker 1: that's one word support I f CJ dot org. You know,

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Speaker 1: Michael Cohen's word is the only evidence that prosecutors have

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Speaker 1: that Trump was trying to do anything wrong, and so

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Speaker 1: like with that, would this even be a misdemeanor? Because

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Speaker 1: if if, if Michael Cohen is the only person saying that,

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Speaker 1: you know, Trump knew about the Foster caate, you know

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Speaker 1: that it was Trump's, you know, call to do this

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Speaker 1: with any sort of wrongdoing, wouldn't even be a misdemeanor

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Speaker 1: if there's no evidence that Trump was aware that, you know,

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Speaker 1: anything improper took place.

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Speaker 2: Well, if Trump didn't know that the legal expense was

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Speaker 2: the quote unquote legal expense was documented incorrectly, then then.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I mean, I think because they've

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Speaker 1: not even that yet correct outside of Michael Cohen's word.

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Speaker 2: Outside of Michael Cohen's word, I mean the bookkeeping aspect,

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Speaker 2: I'm not candidly, I'm not sure. I mean, the bookkeeping

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Speaker 2: aspect of it has has not really been too much

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Speaker 2: of the focus that I know it was recorded.

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Speaker 1: As a legal expense. It was. But I'm saying, if

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Speaker 1: if it wasn't a felony, you wouldn't have to prove

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Speaker 1: that it was done to conceal or commit another crime.

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Speaker 1: You would just have to prove that some sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, improper act took place, correct, right, But they

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Speaker 1: haven't even demonstrated that it's Trump, that Trump was responsible

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Speaker 1: or instructed it, or was even aware right exactly that

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Speaker 1: he would have not even a misdemeanor. He would have

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Speaker 1: to have known about it. Right.

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Speaker 2: So this this case is they've called it a Frankenstein case,

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Speaker 2: and it really kind of is. They they resurrected it

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Speaker 2: from the dead misdemeanor statute of limitations had run, and

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Speaker 2: they brought it back by bootstrapping it onto a felony,

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Speaker 2: a felony that apparently has just not really been well

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Speaker 2: defined as to what the actual crime is that he committed.

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Speaker 1: But they don't. They don't necessarily It's.

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Speaker 2: Kind of complicated, you know, I don't envy the jury

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Speaker 2: because they don't necessarily need to prove that crime beyond

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Speaker 2: a reasonable doubt. They just need to They just need

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Speaker 2: to show convince the jury that he was doing it

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Speaker 2: to try to influence the election. So again, it's it's

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Speaker 2: kind of like a Frankenstein prosecution.

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Speaker 1: And this is just the way that you know NDA's.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they might be unseeingly, people might not like them,

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Speaker 2: but they are not illegal. People do them all the

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Speaker 2: time across the political spectrum. Celebrities do them. Harvey Weinstein

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Speaker 2: was doing. I mean, it's just kind of part and

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Speaker 2: parcel of what people do when they when they don't

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Speaker 2: want certain information to get out, or even if the

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Speaker 2: information isn't true, to get people off their back and

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Speaker 2: make sure that they're not talking to the press.

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Speaker 1: So I think that the.

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Speaker 2: Judge had said that he in the charge conference where

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Speaker 2: they actually explain the law to the jury or they

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Speaker 2: talk about what they're going to explain to the jury,

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Speaker 2: I think the judge actually said, I don't need to

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Speaker 2: go into the fact that NDAs aren't illegal.

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Speaker 1: The jury is well aware.

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Speaker 2: I mean, could that be seen as another evidence of

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Speaker 2: his bias? Sure, you know, I wasn't sitting in the

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Speaker 2: courtroom every day, So the extent to which NDAs were covered,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, But you know, I think it's kind

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Speaker 2: of just these types of things happen in campaigns where

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Speaker 2: people try to make sure that certain information doesn't get out,

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Speaker 2: and people usually aren't prosecuted for it. I mean, and

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Speaker 2: I know that John Edwards, for example, who I believe

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Speaker 2: was the former governor of South Carolina, had been prosecuted

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Speaker 2: for it. I don't think successfully. But these things don't

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Speaker 2: happen very often. And so for this now to be

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Speaker 2: happening to Donald Trump and for Alvin Bragg to have

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Speaker 2: upended hundreds of years of precedent of not pross accuting

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Speaker 2: it's former presidents and now we potentially have a former

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Speaker 2: president who's gonna have a felony conviction. I really do

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Speaker 2: think that given what he was accused of, it's just

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Speaker 2: really bad for the country.

437
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: Well, I view campaign finance law the same as like

438
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 1: Pharah violations or the Espionage Espionage Act. It's like it's

439
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 1: never brought up unless it's politically charged, right, It's you know,

440
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: it's it's it's never equally applied word. It's like, okay, yeah,

441
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,959
Speaker 1: let's say campaign finance violations are bad, but then make

442
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 1: the law clearer and you know, go after everyone equally,

443
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 1: or like yeah, Farah violations are bad. Do we want

444
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: people working on behalf of foreign governments, you know, and

445
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: they're not disclosing that. No, but it's also unequally applied.

446
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: So either like make it strict or or strict and

447
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 1: applied equally, or you know, it's always seems to be

448
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: going in one direction, which is to punish people on

449
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: the right. I guess where do you think the jury

450
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: will end up on this? Oh?

451
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 2: My gosh, you know, I I I couldn't even venture

452
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,479
Speaker 2: to predict. I mean, there are basically three there are

453
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 2: three options. There's guilty, not guilty, or a hung jury.

454
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 2: And all it takes is one person to hang a

455
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: jury because the verdict has to be unanimous. So if

456
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 2: one person, if one person doesn't agree, then that with

457
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 2: everybody else, then there could be a hung jury and

458
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 2: thus a mistrial and then possibly the worst case scenario.

459
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 2: I get, well, the worst case scenario for Donald Trump

460
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 2: would be a conviction, But I guess the second worst

461
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 2: case scenario would be a hung jury where he's tried again.

462
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 1: You know, I'll try again before a different jury.

463
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 2: But I could never I could never possibly predict on

464
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 2: this one because I think it's illegally it's kind of

465
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 2: a legally complex issue. I think the conventional wisdom is

466
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 2: that if you are if you're picking jurors from a

467
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: New York City jury pool, New York City skews very democrat,

468
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 2: people are assuming that these jurors probably have some type

469
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 2: of inherent bias against Donald Trump right out of the gate.

470
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 2: But again, and by the same token, jurors do pay attention,

471
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 2: and they've been sitting in there every single day and

472
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: seeing what's gone on and seeing that the state has

473
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 2: an unbelievably incredible and biased witness and Michael Cohen. So

474
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 2: I just hope for the sake of our country that

475
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 2: they give serious consideration to the merits of what was

476
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 2: put in front of them and don't let their distaste

477
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 2: for the defendants sway them. And there are a lot

478
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 2: of cases murders, I mean, the most horrible cases where

479
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: sometimes people are quitted, and so while the jury might

480
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 2: have a distaste for.

481
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: The defendant or not not exactly believe what the defense is.

482
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: Saying, they're still able to put their personal feelings aside

483
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: and come to a fair and just conclusion based on

484
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 2: the evidence.

485
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: So hopefully this jury will be able to do that

486
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I guess I just I worry that

487
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: I think we live in a time where, you know,

488
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 1: people don't really care about the Constitution, they don't really

489
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: care about the rule of lawed anymore. And there's this

490
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: like the ends justify the means when it comes to

491
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, like it, you know, look at all the

492
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: stuff they're trying to do to them. It's like and

493
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: anything is fair game if it's in the mission of

494
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: getting Trump. So I just I worry that we're sort

495
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: of beyond this place of common sense and reasonableness and

496
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: duty to country and duty to the law. So, you know,

497
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: I hope I'm proven wrong, but I think we're just

498
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: sort of in this dangerous place. And how can you

499
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: not be when you have people like Alvin Bragg who

500
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: were weaponizing his position.

501
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 2: Is right, DA, And I mean you know you've you've

502
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: seen that another high profile cases too, OJ Simpson, I

503
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 2: mean that jury that was a that was dury nullification.

504
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 2: I mean that that was in part hayback for the

505
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 2: Rodney King issues and all of the racial issues in

506
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: LA at the time. So kind of kind of like

507
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 2: OJ was a beneficiary of the time that he was

508
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 2: in at the.

509
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: Time he was tried where there were all of these

510
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: racial issues. Trump is is the opposite.

511
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 2: Trump is Trump has gotten the worst of it in

512
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 2: terms of the people that are in these positions of power,

513
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 2: like Alvin Bragg, have decided to try to make an

514
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 2: example out of him, and hopefully truth, justice, the American way,

515
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: all those, all those things that we aspire to in

516
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: this country will prevail because I don't personally think based

517
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,479
Speaker 2: on what has been presented that they have proven their

518
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 2: case beyond a reasonable doubt.

519
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: But will know soon enough.

520
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 2: I mean, if they're if the closings are going to

521
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 2: be on for the twenty eighth, then they start deliberating

522
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: on the twenty ninth. Is it possible we have a

523
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 2: verdict before the end of May. I mean, sure it's possible,

524
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: But you know, we'll know by June.

525
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: If it's a mistrial, how quickly you know, how long

526
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: does the process take to try to retry them. If

527
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: that's why Alvin Bragg and that's what they try to

528
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: decide to do, well, it's really a matter of scheduling

529
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: because it would be the same probably the same lawyers,

530
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: the same prosecutors.

531
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: They would need to pick a new jury, but both

532
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 2: of them they already have their cases laid out, and

533
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: what they would want to do, which they probably are

534
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: already doing, is ordering transcripts for every single day of

535
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 2: the trial so that everybody's prior testimony is on record

536
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: for them to go back and review. It would really

537
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 2: depend on the schedules of the court and everybody else

538
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 2: involved in the trial, and if they end, if the

539
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: prosecution chose to do it again. For example, if there's

540
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 2: a hung jury because eleven vote to acquit and one

541
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 2: wants to convict, that's the type of thing where I

542
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 2: don't know if they'll I don't know if they would

543
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 2: retry him. I think it also would depend if it's

544
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 2: a hung jury on the ratio of acquittals to guilties.

545
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: I guess before we go. Does equal application of the

546
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: law exist? Well, it's supposed to. It's supposed to. There're

547
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: be many people that would say.

548
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: That it doesn't, just based on based on their own

549
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: experiences with the law. Also just even every day normal

550
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: people you know, for example, people that are in trouble

551
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: a lot don't think that equal application of the laws

552
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: it's And then people who aren't in trouble a lot,

553
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: you know, like people that generally stay out of trouble

554
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 2: and have never been arrested. Probably feel as though it does.

555
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: But for.

556
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: Celebrities and politicians, we've seen it go both ways. Sometimes

557
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: celebrities are treated with kid gloves and they get a

558
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: benefit of doubt where it's not deserved. Like Michael Jackson,

559
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't seem like the court of public

560
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: opinion has changed on him much, even though he has

561
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: more than enough He had more than enough allegations against

562
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 2: him for in this day and age to just be

563
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 2: canceled will sale, but he hasn't been. And then you

564
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: have somebody like Donald Trump, who people were mad about

565
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: what happened in twenty twenty slash twenty twenty one, and

566
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, all hell breaks loose and

567
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 2: he's facing four different indictments in four different states, not

568
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: even to mention the Litlatisa James case on the inside

569
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 2: of you know, a few months and you look at

570
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: that as an everyday average American and think that seems

571
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: little bit like overkill. Not sure that the law was

572
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: equally applied in that case. So I really think it

573
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: depends on who you're looking at. That's the goal, is

574
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: that it's equally applied. But it doesn't seem like it here.

575
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 2: Especially you might think Donald Trump made some missteps or

576
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: did had some questionable judgment.

577
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: But if you also look at people who are literally

578
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: campaigning to get him, Letitia James.

579
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 2: Alvin Bragg, then you can't look at that and seriously

580
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: say that they have done their jobs impartially with the

581
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: goal of equal applicational law.

582
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: I agree with that. I think it also just puts

583
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: us on a dangerous path where this is kind of

584
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: the new normal, and that's, you know, obviously very concerning.

585
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: Lets say, I really appreciate you taking the time to

586
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: join the show. This is really interesting. Appreciate your insight

587
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: and preciate your time, my pleasure, Lisa, thanks for having

588
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: me those defense attorney Lexi rigged In. Appreciate her taking

589
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: the time to join the show. Appreciate you guys at

590
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: home for listening every Monday and Thursday, but you can

591
00:30:58,080 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: listen throughout the week. I want to think John Cassio

592
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: might do user for putting the show together. Until next time.

593
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: M