WEBVTT - How Solana and Pyth Aim To Take DeFi to the Next Level 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:14.680 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:19.360 I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy all Away. So Tracy, 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:24.960 obviously we've done a handful of like Crypto Defy episodes 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:29.080 in the last few months, obviously area of growing interest. 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:32.640 I would still say, however, that for all the enthusiasm, like, 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.159 by and large, I like it doesn't seem like anything 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:41.680 Crypto Defy is like seriously cutting into traditional finance in 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:43.960 a big way, yet like it still feels like a 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:48.199 pretty separate universe. Yeah. Well, this is the point that 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:50.400 you've brought up on a number of those episodes, this 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:54.120 idea that we have defied. But so far it basically 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:58.240 seems to be sort of self dealing in crypto and 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.520 in various token There hasn't really been an extension outside 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:06.039 of the crypto space, right. It feels like it feels 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.280 very recursive, kind of like a snakey to gets tail, 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:14.800 like some interesting proof of concepts about how market making works, 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:17.560 or the idea of like an automated market maker, or 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.440 sort of like collateralized lending. But yes, by and large, 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:23.080 like you know, if you're to sort of look and 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.600 say what banks are doing or trading firms are doing. 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:29.360 At this point, the two don't seem to be intersecting 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:31.360 all that much, or you know, I can't think of 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:35.760 like many trading lines or business lines within finance that 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:40.000 are like, oh, we're losing money to defy or two 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.680 Crypto and something which kind of goes back to a 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:47.240 wider point or one of the original criticisms of blockchain, 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:50.040 which is that, you know, for all the excitement and 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:53.240 all the hype, we didn't actually see that many real 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:58.400 economy applications a blockchain UM and the fact that finance 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:01.640 hasn't been able to make some of the technology from 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:05.800 Defy work like kind of hints at that issue, although 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:08.359 I mean, I have to say there are regulatory hurdles 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.360 to actually doing UM defy type things if you're a 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:16.519 regulated financial institution. Tracy, have you ever played around or like, 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:19.040 you know, with you know a while ago, now, like 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:22.520 back in the spring, we did that Hayden Adams won 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:24.720 on unit swapped. Have you ever like going around and 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:28.120 like playing around with unit swap at all or see 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:31.160 how it really works? Yeah? I did. UM. I started 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.560 like a meta mask account and was playing around a 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.200 little bit, but like I gotta say, even starting a 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:40.080 meta mask account from Hong Kong is a nightmare in 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:43.120 and of itself. Like just getting money onto it UM 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:45.960 took me like a full day to figure out. No, 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.680 I mean, like it seems cool, and it is. It's 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.280 actually very impressive, and it's like there's some interesting breakthroughs, 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:55.160 but like it''s obvious, like it's not up to snow 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:57.720 like for like anything that's sort of like actual like 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.720 high performance finance, like you know, trade eating people are 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.680 used to like executions, like millisecond scale executions. The cost 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:09.160 of trading is for so many different assets virtually free 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:11.120 and as everyone knows, you know, it's like I saw 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:13.160 you you had a really good joke a while back 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:16.480 about gas prices and you just swap. Like the cost 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:18.720 of say like a trading on the Ethereum blockchain or 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.360 whatever is like far above anything that would be like 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:25.320 actual finance scale at this point, absolutely, and I mean 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:28.360 just the knowledge that you need in order to dip 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:30.720 your toes in it. And again, like going back to 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.760 the metal mask account creation, like that took me ages 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.920 and I know, like a little bit about what's going 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.880 on UM and then actually doing defy you know, picking 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:44.680 like what tokens you're interested in, and then making the 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.560 calculations for how much yield you can earn versus the 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:51.120 gas fees like it. It kind of boggles the mind. 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:55.280 And it is worlds away from the kind of I 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:59.120 guess service service, the right term customer experience that you 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:03.200 would get on traditional financial applications, right and like if 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.000 there's like a hot new n f T drop on ethereum, 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.640 like gas fees, which I guess are more or less 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.640 like the commissions like shoot to the moon. Like obviously, 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.360 like if you're like I want a high performance trading 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:18.080 environment like serious trading, it's obviously it's not there yet. 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:20.320 It's super interesting. It might get there, but it's not 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:24.000 there yet. Yeah, I would agree with that. So all 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.920 of this is to say to get to our discussion 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.000 today that I'm very excited about, and we're gonna be 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:35.440 talking about a crypto blockchain initiative which is extremely hot 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:39.960 right now, expure lots of interest, and it's kind of like, um, 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.560 what I would say is it's going after sort of 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:47.080 like Wall Street grade finance, grade finance, and by that 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:51.440 I mean actually attempting to you know, the idea that 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:53.839 maybe you can have a blockchain, but it actually is 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:56.640 at the speeds the Wall Street is used to, actually 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.039 at the trading cost Wall Street is used to. And 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:00.680 you know, I think it's interest seen because one of 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.400 the things that people say about blockchain, like, oh, it's 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:06.040 a bad database. A blockchain is just a slow database, 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.240 and for most use cases it's not what you want. 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.560 This is We're gonna be talking about a blockchain project 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.839 that actually is attempting to not just be a slow 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:21.440 and efficient database, but to actually be high performance. Yeah, 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.799 let's do it. I'm excited. All right, I'm super excited 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.160 about this episode because it's super hot and people are 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.240 into this stuff right now. We're gonna we have too 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.200 great guests on um. We're gonna be speaking with Anatoly 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:37.120 yako Venko. He is the CEO of Salona Labs, and 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:40.240 he is the creator of the Salona protocol, which is 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:44.680 this like smart contracting blockchain crypto platform that's kind of 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:47.920 like Ethereum some similar ideas, and we're also going to 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.240 be speaking to kind of Korea. He is the director 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:56.200 of strategic Projects at Jump Trading, a well known trading firm, 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:59.200 and they're doing a lot of interesting crypto stuff that 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.479 will be getting in too, and so it should be 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.000 an interesting conversation on the sort of like marriage of 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:09.920 technology finance and an attempt to do crypto at true 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.080 Wall Street grade of finance grade. So Anna totally and 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.440 kind of thank you so much for joining us. Awesome 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:21.400 to be here, Thank you, Jeff. Yeah, I'm super excited 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:23.719 about this one. The timing is great. Well, you know, 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.520 it's like we're recording this August eighteen. Most of the 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.040 big coins are still well below their highs, but people 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.000 are super into the Salona and I think people are 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.440 going to be excited about hearing this one when this 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.560 comes out. But um, you know, like, so Anna totally. 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.120 I want to start with you. I mean, this is 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:42.920 this cliche that people have said for a long time 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:47.600 blockchains are bad inefficient databases, and I think a lot 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:49.440 of people are just sort of accepted that it's true 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:51.960 that there's like this like trade off that you have 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:55.479 to make. It's like, Okay, you can like be decentralized, 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:58.359 you can be permission lest, you can be censorship free, 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.120 but the price of that is high cost of execution 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.920 and slow cost of execution, and that more or less 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:08.279 I would say, characterizes like bitcoin and ethereum at least 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:13.280 right now, And it seems like Salana essentially attempts to say, no, 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.680 we don't have to accept the inherent inefficiency. Like what 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.520 is salana? What is the goal? And how do you 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.720 think about that trade off? Yeah, so the trade if 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.080 you described this kind of this thing that people call 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:31.160 it trai lama, right dessentialization, performer and security, And that's 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:35.040 tray lama really only applies if the network tries to 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:39.200 exceed the bandwidth available to it. So bandwidth is you 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.040 know what you get out of Cox, out of out 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.040 of Time Warner or whatever, out of a well they 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:44.720 give you one gig a bit at home and a 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.720 lot of places in the United States now, and that 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.360 that's that's really what they mean by bandwidth. Well, if 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:52.600 you look at a theoreum and kind of like these 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:56.120 these uh, you know, proof of work based networks, they 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:59.640 weren't designed to maximize the amount of bandwidth that each 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.840 system can use. They really weren't designed to soak up 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:05.440 one gigabit. But that was really not something that they 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.920 were built for. So my background, if you folks don't know, 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:11.280 I spent most of my career Qualcom. I was there 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.040 from like flip phone days when really like there were 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:18.120 these dinky little devices two thousand three and when I 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:21.760 left in like twenty fifteen, my team was like optimizing 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:26.280 augmented reality and a supercomputer basically. So I saw this 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.160 like massive improvement and hardware in just to span a 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:32.880 ten years. And I've also saw what what real bandwidth 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:35.200 looks like five g that we were you know, it 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:37.280 was in R and D stages while I was there, 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.800 is designed to give you one gigabit. Well to two 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:43.280 people are driving one in China one United States, they 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.400 should have a one gigabit by directional channel between them, 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.559 and if you try to fit transactions over that channel, 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.160 you can stuff about seven hundred thousand transactions per second 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:58.920 like ethereum size Bitcoin size transactions. So the only thing 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:02.120 that's missing really is the hardware to handle it. And 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.679 that's the challenge, like can we build a system, a 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:09.880 fast database that could both process these messages all the 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.880 cryptographic signature verifications and retransmittim around the world as fast 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.600 as possible, so that that's really what we set out 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:19.920 to do. We had some you know, really clever insights, 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:23.240 like using a verifiable delay function as a source of 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:28.480 time before consensus, and you know, using GPUs and and 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.439 a v X and a bunch of hardware optimizations for 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:35.200 you know, how the runtime works, so the execution environment works. 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:39.200 But a lot of these things are engineering, like you know, 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:43.000 hardcore engineering, you know challenges, but not computer science problems. 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.160 So this idea that you've sort of solved the trilemma 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:51.360 or the idea that a blockchain can only outperform in 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:56.920 two of three areas, so decentralization, security, and scalability. Can 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.600 you maybe go into a bit more detail about how 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:01.960 exact uly you do that. When you say it's more 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.760 of a hardware issue versus computer science, what do you 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.880 actually mean and how does the whole thing work? So 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.520 you can imagine a single computer that's really fast, right, 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.559 you send the transactions and gives your response back, Hey 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.920 I'm done right, So that that's something everybody can imagine 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.320 if there was one computer that did this work. So 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:26.520 there's this thing called time division multiple access, which is 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.840 how two G celler networks work. And the way the 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:33.640 work is you have your channel, your bandwidth, your your 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.640 physical frequency signal, and you have a bunch of subscribers 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.199 that want to transmit at the same time over it. Well, 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.080 if you allow them to transmit at the same time, 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:46.000 you get noise because radio interferes. Same a blockchain, if 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:49.640 you have two block producers, two computers, they're really really 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:51.880 fast to try to produce a block in the ledger 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.600 at the same time, you get a fork and it's 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.440 the network is in a noisy state. So this idea 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.959 that we had really early on using a verifiable delay 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.480 function or proof of history. If anyone has heard anything 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.280 about Salona, they heard of proof history. This is a 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.200 clock that is outside of consensus and it rotates the 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.840 button of when any block producer can transmit a block, 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.760 and it does it in a very predictable, deterministic way 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.719 and does it really really fast. So and experimentally we've 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.000 we've done it in for na miloseconds every four na milliseconds. 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:26.559 This button moves right now the slots are four in 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:29.880 a milliseconds, but we moved the button basically every four slots. 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.840 So you can think of this different really really fast 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.040 computer around the world gets to be the next block 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:40.079 producer every like roughly one point six seconds. And because 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.880 everybody knows ahead of time, this is the really fast 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.319 computer that's going to start there, you know, start creating 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.080 these blocks. You don't run into a lot of the 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:52.079 bottlenecks that you're on a ethereum proof of work networks 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.120 and all these other kind of random based coordination networks 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.760 and this this this is like two g celluer networks. 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:01.360 This is stuff that like basically I had to learn 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.080 as part of my interview at Qualcom. UH kind of 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.520 why don't you come in talk to us a little 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.440 bit about UM what you do jump trading with crypto? 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.280 I mean jump trading. I think people may or may 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.000 not know. Maybe you could just describe what it is, 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:18.920 what it's doing in crypto and sort of like what 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.000 the UM I guess to, you know, dovetail with what 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:23.719 we're talking about on a toll. He has been talking 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.560 about some of like what needs to happen for crypto 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.160 to get to the scale where it's worth it for 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:34.840 serious finance players to be involved in it. Jump is 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.240 a coordinator trading film that was founded about two decades 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:42.200 ago in the pits the CV and is one of 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:47.480 the largest participants across traditional jucians markets, spanning most asset classes. 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.679 UH and Joan's Scripto effort began as a Scumpbooks indoon 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:55.679 project six years ago at the University of Illinois where 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:59.120 Jump as a research lab. Uh and you know, our 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.760 movement of the speed has grown pretty dramatically over the 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.080 last six years. And you know, I kind of classify 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:08.240 what we do probably in two buckets. So one is 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:10.640 prop treading, which is, you know, exactly what we do 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:12.480 on the other side of the house, where we connect 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.720 to a lot of markets and participating very actively across 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.360 the cryptal escape. The second piece where this conversation is 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:23.520 probably more interesting, is the strategic bucket, where we've been 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:27.160 involved in partnering with and investing in pieces of infrastructure 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.520 across the cryptal space. And that you know kind of 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:33.880 started with centralized infrastructure with exchanges, custodians, other pigs and shovels, 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.319 and there's you know, involved into the much more exciting spaces, 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.360 participating with on Jane protocols and projects such as Salana, 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:45.079 and contributing in a much more hands on fashioned projects 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:47.319 like the Pitt network, which which I'm trouble to get 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:48.920 a chance to chat about a little bit of day. 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:51.400 I guess tackling that question of you know what it's 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:55.880 going to take to finance. Yeah, the crypto well, well, 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.560 projects like the Pitt Network are definitely want piece of it. 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.199 And and I'll say that are you know, maybe a 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.520 little bit later in the interview, but like like and 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:07.000 it only was you know, was mentioning there's a lot 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:10.319 of scalability that's yet to be had and that's needed 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:13.160 in order to come out of this this this sandbox 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:15.839 that we've been playing in with for the last five years. Right. 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.240 And so if you want to build a finance that 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.360 can execute on an open order books and process a 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.000 lot of transactions that before under bill of seconds, that 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.120 you can facilitate a lot of meaningful response for you 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.480 need a blockchain or you know, or something like Salana 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:35.960 that can process and be that execution layer to facilitate that. Uh. 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.000 You know, there's there's a lot of the stuff that 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.240 you guys touched on earlier in terms of using experiences, uh, 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.840 and and other problems that have been talked about a bunch, 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:45.560 but you know, I can I can tell you that 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.040 through the course of part participation in this space, we've 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:51.560 seen a dramatic improvement in the quality of access that's 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.680 available and as more and more firms, you know, like us, 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.920 get involved, and and and as more projects like Salana 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.480 continue to reach majority and more capital continued during the 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:05.080 space these at all kind of it might be pretty 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:07.880 solva little problems that are that are being tackled. M 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.560 m Anatoly. I'm curious just on that note, like when 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:16.560 you originally set out to found Salana, what was what 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.320 was the goal or ambition of the product. So a 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.280 lot of people have described it as an ethereum killer. 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.120 Was that the ultimate aim to create something that's faster um, 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.800 that's more scalable, And exactly what applications did you have 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:34.160 in mind for it? The slide deck, the seed level 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:38.040 slide deck literally said blockchain at nas deck speed. That 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.920 was the tagline. And we were going after like what 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:45.040 I thought we would be going after are like these 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:50.000 monopolies like Nazzac, like Nisy, like CME. Because you know, 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:54.200 for whatever reason, I started trading on like Interactive Brokers 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.720 and a bunch of forex sites, and in my experience 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:01.160 as an engineer, I was always a little behind. And 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.359 when I got the data, when I got the information 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.080 from these from these places, and when my orders got submitted, 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.320 they're always a little later than everyone else's. So I 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:13.720 always felt like I was always getting screwed by somebody 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:18.360 else that had access to this financial backbone and this 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:22.360 core thing that blockchains are that different blocked blockchains from 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:26.080 databases is the city of censorship resistance. So if we 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:29.360 have a really fast blockchain and all you need is 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:31.200 hardware to connect to it, and you're in the same 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:33.640 level playing field as you know, Jump Trading or all 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.360 the best traders in the world, that's really something that 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.520 I felt would be good. You know that that's the 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:42.600 product that I wanted. I'm blown away by the progress 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.560 over the last year having folks like jump Trading, like 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:48.640 you know, to have their engineers start building lists and 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:51.120 really take this seriously in it. You know, it was 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.240 a dream and kind of a silly idea maybe in 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:55.960 a silly tagline and a slide deck, but now it 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.280 really feels real, like there's I think there's a chance 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:03.320 that financial execution trading could actually run on Salana in 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.760 the next five to ten years from for the majority 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:25.080 of things that are traded in the world. So you 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:29.560 mentioned censorship resistance, and of course, like you know, this 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.880 is like a core value like a bitcoin and when 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.399 I think about it in the bitcoin realm, you know, 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:39.960 the core cetocis vision, you know, I think about, like, Okay, 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.800 I could send a transaction from here in New York 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.600 to Tracy in Hong Kong, and no third party needs 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.119 to know about it, and no third party could say no, 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:53.600 and no third party could say, oh, you're not allowed 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.560 to send that much across borders to Hong Kong because 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.320 it's gonna like there. You know, it's like that cypherpunk 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:01.840 vision that it's just between me and Tracy and no 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.040 one else is involved in the transaction. It feels like 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:08.520 it means something a little bit different in the con 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:12.760 in the sort of like pure finance context where you're 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:16.040 talking about, oh, you don't like the fact that as 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.800 a kind of interactive brokers, it feels like there's someone 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.159 who maybe has a computer and a server room in 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.800 New Jersey who's a millisecond closer to the exchange or whatever. 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:30.600 Talk about what censorship resistance means in the context of like, 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.520 you know, trading interest rates. So there's uh, you know 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:39.200 this these transactions, it's especially trades. It's information that's propagating 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.840 around the world, and you can think of it as 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.120 kind of chasing news. So some news worth the event 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:48.159 happens in Singapore, that news wire trades, you know, fires 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:50.920 off to a trader that's looking at that Bloomberg terminal, 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:52.359 and they may and they look at the market and 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.800 then they make the trade. The goal for us is 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:59.040 to have state transitions like transactions to propagate at that 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:02.000 same speed speeder light through fibers, so by the time 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.520 that trader looks at the markets, they see the exact 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:09.119 same price CME or NISY. And because the how the 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.919 information propagates, it's simultaneously to every computer that's part of 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:16.920 the Salanta network, and anybody can join. That's thatt. It 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.399 means that me is a Joshmo and a totally that 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:24.080 wants to play around with deep learning and make my models. 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.159 I get that data as fast as you know the 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:29.320 best traders in the world, and therefore I can make 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.160 my trades, you know, based on how good I am 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.679 at at the same kind of level playing field. So 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.959 it's really like I make this joke. It's kind of 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.840 a maybe a little morbid, but I say, Salanta is 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.720 really great. If you're building a nuclear first strike detector, 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:46.080 you actually want to see the rockets launch and you 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:49.399 want that signal to fire. Bitcoin is really great for 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.159 after the that strike lands and you need to like 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:58.960 rebuild society. UM, So how does that so? I mean 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:03.560 there is a tension in with blockchain and regulated financial 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:07.040 institutions that we kind of touched on earlier UM And 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.280 of course we've seen Gary Gensler come out recently and 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:11.960 talk about how a lot of tokens look a lot 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:15.560 like synthetic securities. So I'm just wondering how does the 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:20.879 permissionless aspect of a blockchain UM stack up against the 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:27.640 highly highly controlled and regulated world of financial transactions. So 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.600 a blockchain, especially like one like Salana, it's really like 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:35.440 a very dumb packet switch. It's really doing nothing more 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:38.480 interesting than a T and T does accept. It guarantees 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.960 this censorship resistant piece that if I send a message, 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.200 it's delivered to all the subscribers, and the fault tolerance 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.439 and all these consensus algorithms guarantee that that part that 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.439 there isn't any central party that can stop it. So 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.200 that that is really like very dumb work. Right. The 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:57.800 validators that do this, they don't they're not aware of 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:02.000 the bits that are sending I feel like where regulations 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:06.280 should step in is at the places where somebody is saying, 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:09.840 these bits in this computer and this packet switch represents 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.760 something of value, and I'm claiming that they represents something 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:16.159 of value to the public, right because that that's the 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:19.520 thing that is kind of like, you know, effectuating the 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:23.520 bits into something that has you know, trust assumptions that 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.240 people will look at it and say, Okay, is that 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:28.240 really the unit swap token? Is that really the bitcoin token? 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.359 Who am I sending my money to? That's a perfect 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:36.399 place to regulate the actual bits how they're transmitted. That's 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:39.040 really like dumb packet switch work. You know, Like I 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:42.679 think what we've seen, especially in the last you know, 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.560 like during the discussions around the amendment in the INFRA bill, 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:49.359 I feel like I feel like those folks got that 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.040 part and actually started moving towards that direction. Maybe kind 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.600 of maybe you could come in and talk about it 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.399 from the perspective of a trading firm that has to 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:02.359 think about regulations or think about what is securities and 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:06.080 has regulatory obligations, because it does feel like, as Tracy said, 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:08.160 it seems like it's going to come up more and more. 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:10.960 It's like what are these are these are these securities 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.880 properly registered? Like how do you see the playing out 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:16.520 from your perspective? And maybe you could just yeah, give 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:21.280 us jumps perspective or your perspective. Yeah. So, as you 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:23.919 pointed out, Jump has a massive body of folks that 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:27.800 are constantly monitoring the situation, uh, to ingest all this 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:31.320 information as it comes in, and there's there's a lot 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:36.520 of shades of right. Our participation in this space has 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:38.560 very defined by a lot of the activities that we've 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:40.919