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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy all Away. So Tracy,

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Speaker 1: obviously we've done a handful of like Crypto Defy episodes

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Speaker 1: in the last few months, obviously area of growing interest.

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Speaker 1: I would still say, however, that for all the enthusiasm, like,

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Speaker 1: by and large, I like it doesn't seem like anything

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Speaker 1: Crypto Defy is like seriously cutting into traditional finance in

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Speaker 1: a big way, yet like it still feels like a

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Speaker 1: pretty separate universe. Yeah. Well, this is the point that

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Speaker 1: you've brought up on a number of those episodes, this

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Speaker 1: idea that we have defied. But so far it basically

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Speaker 1: seems to be sort of self dealing in crypto and

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Speaker 1: in various token There hasn't really been an extension outside

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Speaker 1: of the crypto space, right. It feels like it feels

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Speaker 1: very recursive, kind of like a snakey to gets tail,

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Speaker 1: like some interesting proof of concepts about how market making works,

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Speaker 1: or the idea of like an automated market maker, or

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Speaker 1: sort of like collateralized lending. But yes, by and large,

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Speaker 1: like you know, if you're to sort of look and

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Speaker 1: say what banks are doing or trading firms are doing.

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Speaker 1: At this point, the two don't seem to be intersecting

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Speaker 1: all that much, or you know, I can't think of

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Speaker 1: like many trading lines or business lines within finance that

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Speaker 1: are like, oh, we're losing money to defy or two

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Speaker 1: Crypto and something which kind of goes back to a

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Speaker 1: wider point or one of the original criticisms of blockchain,

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Speaker 1: which is that, you know, for all the excitement and

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Speaker 1: all the hype, we didn't actually see that many real

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Speaker 1: economy applications a blockchain UM and the fact that finance

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Speaker 1: hasn't been able to make some of the technology from

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Speaker 1: Defy work like kind of hints at that issue, although

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Speaker 1: I mean, I have to say there are regulatory hurdles

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Speaker 1: to actually doing UM defy type things if you're a

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Speaker 1: regulated financial institution. Tracy, have you ever played around or like,

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Speaker 1: you know, with you know a while ago, now, like

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Speaker 1: back in the spring, we did that Hayden Adams won

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Speaker 1: on unit swapped. Have you ever like going around and

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Speaker 1: like playing around with unit swap at all or see

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Speaker 1: how it really works? Yeah? I did. UM. I started

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Speaker 1: like a meta mask account and was playing around a

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Speaker 1: little bit, but like I gotta say, even starting a

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Speaker 1: meta mask account from Hong Kong is a nightmare in

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Speaker 1: and of itself. Like just getting money onto it UM

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Speaker 1: took me like a full day to figure out. No,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like it seems cool, and it is. It's

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Speaker 1: actually very impressive, and it's like there's some interesting breakthroughs,

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Speaker 1: but like it''s obvious, like it's not up to snow

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Speaker 1: like for like anything that's sort of like actual like

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Speaker 1: high performance finance, like you know, trade eating people are

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Speaker 1: used to like executions, like millisecond scale executions. The cost

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Speaker 1: of trading is for so many different assets virtually free

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Speaker 1: and as everyone knows, you know, it's like I saw

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Speaker 1: you you had a really good joke a while back

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Speaker 1: about gas prices and you just swap. Like the cost

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Speaker 1: of say like a trading on the Ethereum blockchain or

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Speaker 1: whatever is like far above anything that would be like

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Speaker 1: actual finance scale at this point, absolutely, and I mean

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Speaker 1: just the knowledge that you need in order to dip

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Speaker 1: your toes in it. And again, like going back to

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Speaker 1: the metal mask account creation, like that took me ages

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Speaker 1: and I know, like a little bit about what's going

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Speaker 1: on UM and then actually doing defy you know, picking

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Speaker 1: like what tokens you're interested in, and then making the

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Speaker 1: calculations for how much yield you can earn versus the

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Speaker 1: gas fees like it. It kind of boggles the mind.

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Speaker 1: And it is worlds away from the kind of I

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Speaker 1: guess service service, the right term customer experience that you

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Speaker 1: would get on traditional financial applications, right and like if

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Speaker 1: there's like a hot new n f T drop on ethereum,

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Speaker 1: like gas fees, which I guess are more or less

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Speaker 1: like the commissions like shoot to the moon. Like obviously,

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Speaker 1: like if you're like I want a high performance trading

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Speaker 1: environment like serious trading, it's obviously it's not there yet.

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Speaker 1: It's super interesting. It might get there, but it's not

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Speaker 1: there yet. Yeah, I would agree with that. So all

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Speaker 1: of this is to say to get to our discussion

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Speaker 1: today that I'm very excited about, and we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about a crypto blockchain initiative which is extremely hot

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Speaker 1: right now, expure lots of interest, and it's kind of like, um,

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Speaker 1: what I would say is it's going after sort of

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Speaker 1: like Wall Street grade finance, grade finance, and by that

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Speaker 1: I mean actually attempting to you know, the idea that

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Speaker 1: maybe you can have a blockchain, but it actually is

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Speaker 1: at the speeds the Wall Street is used to, actually

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Speaker 1: at the trading cost Wall Street is used to. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it's interest seen because one of

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Speaker 1: the things that people say about blockchain, like, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: a bad database. A blockchain is just a slow database,

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Speaker 1: and for most use cases it's not what you want.

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Speaker 1: This is We're gonna be talking about a blockchain project

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Speaker 1: that actually is attempting to not just be a slow

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Speaker 1: and efficient database, but to actually be high performance. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's do it. I'm excited. All right, I'm super excited

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Speaker 1: about this episode because it's super hot and people are

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Speaker 1: into this stuff right now. We're gonna we have too

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Speaker 1: great guests on um. We're gonna be speaking with Anatoly

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Speaker 1: yako Venko. He is the CEO of Salona Labs, and

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Speaker 1: he is the creator of the Salona protocol, which is

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Speaker 1: this like smart contracting blockchain crypto platform that's kind of

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Speaker 1: like Ethereum some similar ideas, and we're also going to

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Speaker 1: be speaking to kind of Korea. He is the director

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Speaker 1: of strategic Projects at Jump Trading, a well known trading firm,

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Speaker 1: and they're doing a lot of interesting crypto stuff that

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Speaker 1: will be getting in too, and so it should be

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Speaker 1: an interesting conversation on the sort of like marriage of

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Speaker 1: technology finance and an attempt to do crypto at true

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Speaker 1: Wall Street grade of finance grade. So Anna totally and

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Speaker 1: kind of thank you so much for joining us. Awesome

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Speaker 1: to be here, Thank you, Jeff. Yeah, I'm super excited

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Speaker 1: about this one. The timing is great. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like we're recording this August eighteen. Most of the

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Speaker 1: big coins are still well below their highs, but people

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Speaker 1: are super into the Salona and I think people are

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Speaker 1: going to be excited about hearing this one when this

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Speaker 1: comes out. But um, you know, like, so Anna totally.

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Speaker 1: I want to start with you. I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: this cliche that people have said for a long time

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Speaker 1: blockchains are bad inefficient databases, and I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people are just sort of accepted that it's true

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Speaker 1: that there's like this like trade off that you have

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Speaker 1: to make. It's like, Okay, you can like be decentralized,

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Speaker 1: you can be permission lest, you can be censorship free,

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Speaker 1: but the price of that is high cost of execution

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Speaker 1: and slow cost of execution, and that more or less

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Speaker 1: I would say, characterizes like bitcoin and ethereum at least

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Speaker 1: right now, And it seems like Salana essentially attempts to say, no,

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Speaker 1: we don't have to accept the inherent inefficiency. Like what

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Speaker 1: is salana? What is the goal? And how do you

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Speaker 1: think about that trade off? Yeah, so the trade if

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Speaker 1: you described this kind of this thing that people call

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Speaker 1: it trai lama, right dessentialization, performer and security, And that's

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Speaker 1: tray lama really only applies if the network tries to

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Speaker 1: exceed the bandwidth available to it. So bandwidth is you

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Speaker 1: know what you get out of Cox, out of out

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Speaker 1: of Time Warner or whatever, out of a well they

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Speaker 1: give you one gig a bit at home and a

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Speaker 1: lot of places in the United States now, and that

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Speaker 1: that's that's really what they mean by bandwidth. Well, if

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Speaker 1: you look at a theoreum and kind of like these

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Speaker 1: these uh, you know, proof of work based networks, they

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Speaker 1: weren't designed to maximize the amount of bandwidth that each

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Speaker 1: system can use. They really weren't designed to soak up

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Speaker 1: one gigabit. But that was really not something that they

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Speaker 1: were built for. So my background, if you folks don't know,

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Speaker 1: I spent most of my career Qualcom. I was there

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Speaker 1: from like flip phone days when really like there were

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Speaker 1: these dinky little devices two thousand three and when I

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Speaker 1: left in like twenty fifteen, my team was like optimizing

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Speaker 1: augmented reality and a supercomputer basically. So I saw this

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Speaker 1: like massive improvement and hardware in just to span a

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Speaker 1: ten years. And I've also saw what what real bandwidth

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Speaker 1: looks like five g that we were you know, it

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Speaker 1: was in R and D stages while I was there,

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Speaker 1: is designed to give you one gigabit. Well to two

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Speaker 1: people are driving one in China one United States, they

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Speaker 1: should have a one gigabit by directional channel between them,

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Speaker 1: and if you try to fit transactions over that channel,

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Speaker 1: you can stuff about seven hundred thousand transactions per second

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Speaker 1: like ethereum size Bitcoin size transactions. So the only thing

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Speaker 1: that's missing really is the hardware to handle it. And

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Speaker 1: that's the challenge, like can we build a system, a

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Speaker 1: fast database that could both process these messages all the

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Speaker 1: cryptographic signature verifications and retransmittim around the world as fast

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Speaker 1: as possible, so that that's really what we set out

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Speaker 1: to do. We had some you know, really clever insights,

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Speaker 1: like using a verifiable delay function as a source of

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Speaker 1: time before consensus, and you know, using GPUs and and

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Speaker 1: a v X and a bunch of hardware optimizations for

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Speaker 1: you know, how the runtime works, so the execution environment works.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of these things are engineering, like you know,

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Speaker 1: hardcore engineering, you know challenges, but not computer science problems.

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Speaker 1: So this idea that you've sort of solved the trilemma

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Speaker 1: or the idea that a blockchain can only outperform in

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Speaker 1: two of three areas, so decentralization, security, and scalability. Can

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Speaker 1: you maybe go into a bit more detail about how

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Speaker 1: exact uly you do that. When you say it's more

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Speaker 1: of a hardware issue versus computer science, what do you

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Speaker 1: actually mean and how does the whole thing work? So

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Speaker 1: you can imagine a single computer that's really fast, right,

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Speaker 1: you send the transactions and gives your response back, Hey

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Speaker 1: I'm done right, So that that's something everybody can imagine

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Speaker 1: if there was one computer that did this work. So

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Speaker 1: there's this thing called time division multiple access, which is

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Speaker 1: how two G celler networks work. And the way the

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Speaker 1: work is you have your channel, your bandwidth, your your

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Speaker 1: physical frequency signal, and you have a bunch of subscribers

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Speaker 1: that want to transmit at the same time over it. Well,

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Speaker 1: if you allow them to transmit at the same time,

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Speaker 1: you get noise because radio interferes. Same a blockchain, if

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Speaker 1: you have two block producers, two computers, they're really really

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Speaker 1: fast to try to produce a block in the ledger

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Speaker 1: at the same time, you get a fork and it's

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Speaker 1: the network is in a noisy state. So this idea

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Speaker 1: that we had really early on using a verifiable delay

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Speaker 1: function or proof of history. If anyone has heard anything

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Speaker 1: about Salona, they heard of proof history. This is a

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Speaker 1: clock that is outside of consensus and it rotates the

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Speaker 1: button of when any block producer can transmit a block,

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Speaker 1: and it does it in a very predictable, deterministic way

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Speaker 1: and does it really really fast. So and experimentally we've

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Speaker 1: we've done it in for na miloseconds every four na milliseconds.

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Speaker 1: This button moves right now the slots are four in

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Speaker 1: a milliseconds, but we moved the button basically every four slots.

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Speaker 1: So you can think of this different really really fast

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Speaker 1: computer around the world gets to be the next block

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Speaker 1: producer every like roughly one point six seconds. And because

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Speaker 1: everybody knows ahead of time, this is the really fast

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Speaker 1: computer that's going to start there, you know, start creating

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Speaker 1: these blocks. You don't run into a lot of the

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Speaker 1: bottlenecks that you're on a ethereum proof of work networks

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Speaker 1: and all these other kind of random based coordination networks

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Speaker 1: and this this this is like two g celluer networks.

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Speaker 1: This is stuff that like basically I had to learn

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Speaker 1: as part of my interview at Qualcom. UH kind of

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Speaker 1: why don't you come in talk to us a little

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Speaker 1: bit about UM what you do jump trading with crypto?

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Speaker 1: I mean jump trading. I think people may or may

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Speaker 1: not know. Maybe you could just describe what it is,

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Speaker 1: what it's doing in crypto and sort of like what

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Speaker 1: the UM I guess to, you know, dovetail with what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about on a toll. He has been talking

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Speaker 1: about some of like what needs to happen for crypto

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Speaker 1: to get to the scale where it's worth it for

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Speaker 1: serious finance players to be involved in it. Jump is

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Speaker 1: a coordinator trading film that was founded about two decades

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Speaker 1: ago in the pits the CV and is one of

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Speaker 1: the largest participants across traditional jucians markets, spanning most asset classes.

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Speaker 1: UH and Joan's Scripto effort began as a Scumpbooks indoon

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Speaker 1: project six years ago at the University of Illinois where

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Speaker 1: Jump as a research lab. Uh and you know, our

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Speaker 1: movement of the speed has grown pretty dramatically over the

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Speaker 1: last six years. And you know, I kind of classify

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Speaker 1: what we do probably in two buckets. So one is

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Speaker 1: prop treading, which is, you know, exactly what we do

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Speaker 1: on the other side of the house, where we connect

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Speaker 1: to a lot of markets and participating very actively across

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Speaker 1: the cryptal escape. The second piece where this conversation is

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Speaker 1: probably more interesting, is the strategic bucket, where we've been

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Speaker 1: involved in partnering with and investing in pieces of infrastructure

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Speaker 1: across the cryptal space. And that you know kind of

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Speaker 1: started with centralized infrastructure with exchanges, custodians, other pigs and shovels,

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Speaker 1: and there's you know, involved into the much more exciting spaces,

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Speaker 1: participating with on Jane protocols and projects such as Salana,

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Speaker 1: and contributing in a much more hands on fashioned projects

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Speaker 1: like the Pitt network, which which I'm trouble to get

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Speaker 1: a chance to chat about a little bit of day.

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Speaker 1: I guess tackling that question of you know what it's

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Speaker 1: going to take to finance. Yeah, the crypto well, well,

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Speaker 1: projects like the Pitt Network are definitely want piece of it.

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Speaker 1: And and I'll say that are you know, maybe a

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Speaker 1: little bit later in the interview, but like like and

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Speaker 1: it only was you know, was mentioning there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of scalability that's yet to be had and that's needed

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Speaker 1: in order to come out of this this this sandbox

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Speaker 1: that we've been playing in with for the last five years. Right.

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Speaker 1: And so if you want to build a finance that

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Speaker 1: can execute on an open order books and process a

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Speaker 1: lot of transactions that before under bill of seconds, that

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Speaker 1: you can facilitate a lot of meaningful response for you

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Speaker 1: need a blockchain or you know, or something like Salana

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Speaker 1: that can process and be that execution layer to facilitate that. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's there's a lot of the stuff that

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Speaker 1: you guys touched on earlier in terms of using experiences, uh,

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Speaker 1: and and other problems that have been talked about a bunch,

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Speaker 1: but you know, I can I can tell you that

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Speaker 1: through the course of part participation in this space, we've

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Speaker 1: seen a dramatic improvement in the quality of access that's

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Speaker 1: available and as more and more firms, you know, like us,

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Speaker 1: get involved, and and and as more projects like Salana

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Speaker 1: continue to reach majority and more capital continued during the

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Speaker 1: space these at all kind of it might be pretty

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Speaker 1: solva little problems that are that are being tackled. M

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Speaker 1: m Anatoly. I'm curious just on that note, like when

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Speaker 1: you originally set out to found Salana, what was what

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Speaker 1: was the goal or ambition of the product. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have described it as an ethereum killer.

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Speaker 1: Was that the ultimate aim to create something that's faster um,

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Speaker 1: that's more scalable, And exactly what applications did you have

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Speaker 1: in mind for it? The slide deck, the seed level

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Speaker 1: slide deck literally said blockchain at nas deck speed. That

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Speaker 1: was the tagline. And we were going after like what

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Speaker 1: I thought we would be going after are like these

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Speaker 1: monopolies like Nazzac, like Nisy, like CME. Because you know,

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, I started trading on like Interactive Brokers

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Speaker 1: and a bunch of forex sites, and in my experience

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Speaker 1: as an engineer, I was always a little behind. And

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Speaker 1: when I got the data, when I got the information

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Speaker 1: from these from these places, and when my orders got submitted,

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Speaker 1: they're always a little later than everyone else's. So I

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Speaker 1: always felt like I was always getting screwed by somebody

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Speaker 1: else that had access to this financial backbone and this

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Speaker 1: core thing that blockchains are that different blocked blockchains from

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Speaker 1: databases is the city of censorship resistance. So if we

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Speaker 1: have a really fast blockchain and all you need is

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Speaker 1: hardware to connect to it, and you're in the same

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Speaker 1: level playing field as you know, Jump Trading or all

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Speaker 1: the best traders in the world, that's really something that

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Speaker 1: I felt would be good. You know that that's the

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Speaker 1: product that I wanted. I'm blown away by the progress

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Speaker 1: over the last year having folks like jump Trading, like

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Speaker 1: you know, to have their engineers start building lists and

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Speaker 1: really take this seriously in it. You know, it was

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Speaker 1: a dream and kind of a silly idea maybe in

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Speaker 1: a silly tagline and a slide deck, but now it

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Speaker 1: really feels real, like there's I think there's a chance

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Speaker 1: that financial execution trading could actually run on Salana in

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Speaker 1: the next five to ten years from for the majority

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Speaker 1: of things that are traded in the world. So you

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Speaker 1: mentioned censorship resistance, and of course, like you know, this

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Speaker 1: is like a core value like a bitcoin and when

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Speaker 1: I think about it in the bitcoin realm, you know,

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Speaker 1: the core cetocis vision, you know, I think about, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I could send a transaction from here in New York

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Speaker 1: to Tracy in Hong Kong, and no third party needs

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Speaker 1: to know about it, and no third party could say no,

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Speaker 1: and no third party could say, oh, you're not allowed

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Speaker 1: to send that much across borders to Hong Kong because

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Speaker 1: it's gonna like there. You know, it's like that cypherpunk

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Speaker 1: vision that it's just between me and Tracy and no

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Speaker 1: one else is involved in the transaction. It feels like

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Speaker 1: it means something a little bit different in the con

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Speaker 1: in the sort of like pure finance context where you're

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Speaker 1: talking about, oh, you don't like the fact that as

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Speaker 1: a kind of interactive brokers, it feels like there's someone

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Speaker 1: who maybe has a computer and a server room in

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Speaker 1: New Jersey who's a millisecond closer to the exchange or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Talk about what censorship resistance means in the context of like,

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Speaker 1: you know, trading interest rates. So there's uh, you know

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Speaker 1: this these transactions, it's especially trades. It's information that's propagating

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Speaker 1: around the world, and you can think of it as

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Speaker 1: kind of chasing news. So some news worth the event

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Speaker 1: happens in Singapore, that news wire trades, you know, fires

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Speaker 1: off to a trader that's looking at that Bloomberg terminal,

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Speaker 1: and they may and they look at the market and

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Speaker 1: then they make the trade. The goal for us is

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Speaker 1: to have state transitions like transactions to propagate at that

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Speaker 1: same speed speeder light through fibers, so by the time

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Speaker 1: that trader looks at the markets, they see the exact

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Speaker 1: same price CME or NISY. And because the how the

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Speaker 1: information propagates, it's simultaneously to every computer that's part of

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Speaker 1: the Salanta network, and anybody can join. That's thatt. It

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Speaker 1: means that me is a Joshmo and a totally that

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Speaker 1: wants to play around with deep learning and make my models.

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Speaker 1: I get that data as fast as you know the

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Speaker 1: best traders in the world, and therefore I can make

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Speaker 1: my trades, you know, based on how good I am

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Speaker 1: at at the same kind of level playing field. So

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Speaker 1: it's really like I make this joke. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: a maybe a little morbid, but I say, Salanta is

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Speaker 1: really great. If you're building a nuclear first strike detector,

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Speaker 1: you actually want to see the rockets launch and you

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Speaker 1: want that signal to fire. Bitcoin is really great for

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Speaker 1: after the that strike lands and you need to like

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Speaker 1: rebuild society. UM, So how does that so? I mean

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Speaker 1: there is a tension in with blockchain and regulated financial

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Speaker 1: institutions that we kind of touched on earlier UM And

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Speaker 1: of course we've seen Gary Gensler come out recently and

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Speaker 1: talk about how a lot of tokens look a lot

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Speaker 1: like synthetic securities. So I'm just wondering how does the

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Speaker 1: permissionless aspect of a blockchain UM stack up against the

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Speaker 1: highly highly controlled and regulated world of financial transactions. So

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Speaker 1: a blockchain, especially like one like Salana, it's really like

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Speaker 1: a very dumb packet switch. It's really doing nothing more

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Speaker 1: interesting than a T and T does accept. It guarantees

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Speaker 1: this censorship resistant piece that if I send a message,

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Speaker 1: it's delivered to all the subscribers, and the fault tolerance

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Speaker 1: and all these consensus algorithms guarantee that that part that

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Speaker 1: there isn't any central party that can stop it. So

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Speaker 1: that that is really like very dumb work. Right. The

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Speaker 1: validators that do this, they don't they're not aware of

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Speaker 1: the bits that are sending I feel like where regulations

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Speaker 1: should step in is at the places where somebody is saying,

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Speaker 1: these bits in this computer and this packet switch represents

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Speaker 1: something of value, and I'm claiming that they represents something

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Speaker 1: of value to the public, right because that that's the

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Speaker 1: thing that is kind of like, you know, effectuating the

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Speaker 1: bits into something that has you know, trust assumptions that

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Speaker 1: people will look at it and say, Okay, is that

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Speaker 1: really the unit swap token? Is that really the bitcoin token?

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Speaker 1: Who am I sending my money to? That's a perfect

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Speaker 1: place to regulate the actual bits how they're transmitted. That's

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Speaker 1: really like dumb packet switch work. You know, Like I

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Speaker 1: think what we've seen, especially in the last you know,

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Speaker 1: like during the discussions around the amendment in the INFRA bill,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like those folks got that

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Speaker 1: part and actually started moving towards that direction. Maybe kind

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Speaker 1: of maybe you could come in and talk about it

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Speaker 1: from the perspective of a trading firm that has to

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Speaker 1: think about regulations or think about what is securities and

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Speaker 1: has regulatory obligations, because it does feel like, as Tracy said,

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Speaker 1: it seems like it's going to come up more and more.

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Speaker 1: It's like what are these are these are these securities

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Speaker 1: properly registered? Like how do you see the playing out

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Speaker 1: from your perspective? And maybe you could just yeah, give

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Speaker 1: us jumps perspective or your perspective. Yeah. So, as you

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Speaker 1: pointed out, Jump has a massive body of folks that

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Speaker 1: are constantly monitoring the situation, uh, to ingest all this

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Speaker 1: information as it comes in, and there's there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of shades of right. Our participation in this space has

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Speaker 1: very defined by a lot of the activities that we've

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Speaker 1: been able to get comfortable with. You know, one of

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Speaker 1: them being contributing data to the bit network as a

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Speaker 1: very neutral again like like I don't know this thing

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Speaker 1: like a dumb backageteresting. We're we're contributing data that's helping

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Speaker 1: bring pricing information and a high fidelity fashion do the blockchain,

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Speaker 1: and that's a kind of neutral piece of infrastructure that

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Speaker 1: we leveraged to build a lot of things. You know,

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Speaker 1: A very curious if you can talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about this the PITH network, because um, you know,

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Speaker 1: we had we did a DeFi episode I think probably

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Speaker 1: about a month and a half ago with Tom Schmidt

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Speaker 1: of Dragonfly Capital, and you talk one of the ways

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Speaker 1: in which this space could move forward is essentially sort

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Speaker 1: of like through kind of like synthetic assets that use

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Speaker 1: outside oracles to bring in pricing, bring bring outside pricing

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Speaker 1: onto the chain. Talk to us like a little bit

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Speaker 1: about what that is? What do you what is pith,

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Speaker 1: what are you contributing to it? And why like why

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Speaker 1: are you contributing data to this uh to this network? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So it is effectively a high speed Dinna bridge between

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Speaker 1: the rest of the word and block chains and in

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Speaker 1: this case specifically salt Right and so Blok chains for

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Speaker 1: for all their strengths to or immediately have the ability

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Speaker 1: to access data that lives outside the chain or off chain.

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Speaker 1: And that means you can't incorporate this data in into

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Speaker 1: the logics of smart contracts and applications. And that's that

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Speaker 1: in a bits, you from being able to build a

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Speaker 1: lot of interesting stuff. And so PIT is like almost

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Speaker 1: like a decentralized marketplace or aggregator that enables first party

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Speaker 1: producers and owners of this data to contribute this price,

431
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: to help build this piece of infrastructure, to bring this

432
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: state to defy and enabled application to all overstabuild stuff.

433
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,239
Speaker 1: The reason that us and you know a lot of

434
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: beating firms and other and a lot of the other

435
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: guys that have announced participation in the PIT network are

436
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: really excited about this is you know, quanfirms have always

437
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: been on the forefront of technological development, almost as a

438
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: precursor of being relevant in this business right, and that's

439
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: generally been more in the finance and kind of focus

440
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: software space. But with the rise of blockchains and decentralized finance,

441
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 1: it's an opportunity for us to be at the forefront

442
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: of a completely new technological revolution. And we've you know,

443
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: we've been in this space for the last six years,

444
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: but a lot of the other participants, you know, have

445
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: been evaluating coming in and vantage this different aspects and

446
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: this has been a really great way for a lot

447
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 1: of people to get their hands dirty or on a

448
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: pair of private keys, send the transaction into the beer

449
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: to pay network, and start building a better, better model

450
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: for the space, because you can't really understand it before

451
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: you before you do that. So that's kind of piece WAE,

452
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: and then piece two is creating forms are generated a

453
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: lot of data historically and managed over this data in

454
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: in varread ways and exchanges. As I generally modeled them

455
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 1: or just spintech platforms that are looking to leverage the

456
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: technology enable building other cool stuff. And so when you

457
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 1: have something like bit that enables people to contribute this

458
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: data to effectively make a blockchain data play. As you

459
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: know this, this auticle problem has become more and more

460
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: predominant as like one of the white fields in the space.

461
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: It's an opportunity to contribute to something in a neutral

462
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: fashion and get exposure to the space and have a player.

463
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 1: And that's why you know, everybody said and conspeak for

464
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 1: cospeak for other people, but you know, through our conversations

465
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: have been one of the reasons why a lot of

466
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: folks have been excited about it. So one of the

467
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: reasons people are very excited about Salona at the moment

468
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: is because the native token, the price of it has

469
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: basically gone kind of crazy recently. UM, I don't have

470
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: it right in front of me, but I think the

471
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: spike was like bigger than Bitcoin recently. Um, just a

472
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: lot of outperformance there. Yeah, So I'm curious, like um Anatoly,

473
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: when you look at the price of Salona and it's

474
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: going up this sharply, what is it saying to you?

475
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: Is it saying that people are seeing more value in

476
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: the Salona network itself and they're willing to, you know,

477
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: pay more for what is an effect like a processing

478
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: storage fee or is its pure speculation um and people

479
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 1: just sort of you know, having fun with crypto um.

480
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: That's really tough, right, That's a tough question simply because

481
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: I don't I think the crypto markets have matured enough

482
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 1: to recognize value in smart contract platforms. And that value

483
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: isn't in the isn't just in the processing or the data.

484
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 1: It's in this like ecosystem, right, the shared state. Like

485
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 1: the reason why ethereum is so valuable is because there's

486
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 1: so many companies that have built products that people want

487
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: on top of it, and there are these products people

488
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: want so much that they're willing to pay these exorbitate

489
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: gas fees to use them. Right, Like that that is

490
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: the value of a theorem? Is that Like that happened? Right?

491
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: So what I think, if anything, that I think the

492
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: price is reflecting that the ecosystem in Salon over the

493
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: last year has grown really dramatically, Like we saw that

494
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: in our hackathons. Our first second On hackathon had a

495
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: thousand registrations, not maximum of three thousand last one. Three

496
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: in fifty teams actually launched you know something, um a

497
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: bunch of them. I don't know the exact number, but

498
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: I feel like it's getting close to fifty of race

499
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: funding just during the hackathons. That means that there's now

500
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: an ecosystem of teams, right, startups that are quit their

501
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: jobs at Google or whatever and created a product and

502
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: have raised outside capital to go then you know product

503
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: market fit eat glass grow users. Right. That that's really

504
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: I think where, if anything, that this is reflecting. Let

505
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: me ask a question, and I think it could actually

506
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: um be answered by both of you. I'd like to

507
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: hear both of your perspectives on it. Because although we've

508
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: talked about okay, ethereum, it's slower, um, it has high

509
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,959
Speaker 1: gas prices. There are the show called layer two solutions

510
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: that people are building on top of ethereum. They're also

511
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: building them on top of Bitcoin, which famously has the

512
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: Lightning network, which has been around for a few years.

513
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: And these layer two solutions can actually can sort of

514
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: solve this problem of extremely high throughput, low cost transactions.

515
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: I'm curious from both of your perspectives what you see

516
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: as uh the advantages of having it be on the

517
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: layer one and why not just say, okay, well, if

518
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: we want um, you know, security, and if we want

519
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: high throughput, why not just use one of the layer

520
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: two solutions on that are being built right now. On

521
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: top of the theory, I think like the magic and

522
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: crypto happens in this idea of composibility where everybody is

523
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: in the same kind of state, right, We're all playing

524
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: the same game on the same server. It's all basically

525
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: super connected. Layer two's create these fractions, you know, and

526
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: like you know, little shards of places where state lives

527
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: and the Financially, it's very obvious that if you have

528
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: a market that now has to be split between two

529
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: different execution environments, different exchanges, that creates inefficiencies because now

530
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: you have arbitrage between the prices between the two, and

531
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: now you have to have capital and both exchanges right

532
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: and manage that and that that's really not a great

533
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: thing when if you have an alternative where everything can

534
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: be in just one jan pot. So that's a very

535
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: financial kind of explanation. But I think just developers, you know,

536
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: use as an engineer, charting is a huge pain in

537
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: the ass to deal with a bunch of different roll ups.

538
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: We have to manage state from application. It's huge pain

539
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: in the ass. All I want is like, oh my whatever,

540
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: ten million users to not worry about any of the stuff, right, Like,

541
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: as an engineer, it's just easier, right, you want, I

542
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: want a single CPU with as much throughput as I can, right,

543
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: ideally with a single core that's as fast as possible.

544
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: Dealing with multiple cores is a little is still a

545
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: pain in the ass, but still not as bad as

546
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: dealing with a network of computers. And I have to scale,

547
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: and that those problems are really like something that takes

548
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: a lot more time for depths to build products versus

549
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: entra you know. Yeah, just sticking backing off of that,

550
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: you know, the magic world that people throw around in

551
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: the cripple space offen is composibility, right, and that that's

552
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: you know Granadolie was talking about in being able to

553
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: leverage pieces of state within the shame leisure to very

554
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: cool applications. And so you can take something like the

555
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: prices the seater Mortar book, put them together in a

556
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: build a derivatives trading platform and if you have shorted state,

557
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: you know, those kinds of exciting applications are not possible,

558
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: and that takes away from a lot of the fund

559
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: that a lot of these have. These these platforms break.

560
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,479
Speaker 1: One thing that Slanas you know, also done really well

561
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: and is investing in what's called cross change bridges, which

562
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: are pieces of infrastructure that enable state to move between

563
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: these changes and so Ethereum has all these network effects

564
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: that exist across a lot of these dimensions, and I

565
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: think all of them eventually convert in convergent to building

566
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: very useful an interesting state, and you're able to use

567
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: these bridges to then bring the state or the Salana

568
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: and perform more interesting competitions of that state and create

569
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: new state with very very interesting security properties. You know,

570
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: that makes well there an Slona I didn't you know,

571
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: in a lot more interesting. So I have a weird

572
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: question um, but it's sort of related to the last point.

573
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: But I think like there's so much excitement around crypto,

574
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: and a lot of it is rooted obviously in excitement

575
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: about technology and its ability to change the world. But

576
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: on the other hand, there seems to be a lot

577
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: of belief that once this technology is invented, like say bitcoin,

578
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: it's not going to be replaced by something else and

579
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: it's going to sort of exist forever. So I'm thinking

580
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: how to phrase this. So you know, if you have

581
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: something like bitcoin and then people say it's use cases limited,

582
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: so they go ahead and then ethereum, and then people

583
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: try to improve on Ethereum and come up with alternates

584
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: like um Salana or like cardon. No, do you ever

585
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: worry that like the next iteration of the blockchain is

586
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: going to come along and um compete effectively with Salana?

587
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: And then secondly, how do you sort of balance the

588
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: tension between building a big network. So you want a

589
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: sort of first mover advantage, you want lots of people

590
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: to be using Salana, But on the other hand, you

591
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: know you could have a new competitor come out of

592
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: nowhere with a better proposition. My belief is that Salana

593
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: is kind of like at a terminal design for censorship resistant,

594
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: real time get the information bits as fast as we

595
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: can around the world. There's Piretto efficient trade offs where

596
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,959
Speaker 1: if you're building something that is trying to survive, you know,

597
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: as a monetary system after World War three, maybe bitcoin

598
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: is a better design. But if you're building something for

599
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: real time trading trying to disrupt NAZAC. I don't see

600
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: a better path. So the network that's gonna beat us

601
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: is going to be very similarly designed to us, but

602
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 1: just executing faster. You know, people working harder. That that's

603
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: what keeps us working as hard as we can. There's

604
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: also I think kind of this other interesting aspect of

605
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: this is that the tech itself maybe not as important

606
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: as just empowering people with cryptography. That onboarding experience yet

607
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: with unit swap that was really painful of metal masks.

608
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,879
Speaker 1: Imagine that, you know, we get to a point where

609
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: you have to three million people that have done it

610
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: and kind of get the idea of cryptography at the

611
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: level of that people understand what a browser does, not

612
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 1: nothing more than that, right, But if they get it,

613
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 1: then you have that many people actually all now able

614
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: to solve custody, all interact with any arbitrary blockchain. That

615
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: space is going to be filled by technologies. You know,

616
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 1: like somebody somewhere is smart enough to go build a

617
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: network and get those people to go do something. You

618
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: know that the tech is going to be less important,

619
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: you know, like the actual getting those humans on board it.

620
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: I wanna go back to this idea of like okay

621
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: competing against the exchanges blockchain at nasdack speeds. You know,

622
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: one of the big ways that a lot of these

623
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: exchanges make money is the licensing of data. That data

624
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,439
Speaker 1: is extremely valuable, and so I'm curious, you know, kind

625
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: of from your perspective, but maybe from both of your perspective,

626
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: is that an area that you see is like, Okay,

627
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: this is prime for disruption. A handful of very powerful

628
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: exchanges really just controlled heavil hammer lock on this data

629
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: and this could you could open this up? But also

630
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 1: you know, I'm also curious, specifically, say from the jump

631
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: trading perspective, and there's a bunch of trading firms that

632
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: are involved in this, I know, like Virtue is one

633
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 1: of them. What is the guarantee that the data you're

634
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: contributing is clean or that it's high quality data? Because

635
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,959
Speaker 1: it's what you know, like, how do we How would

636
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: I if I were a a user of PITH or I,

637
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: you know, have designed a smart contract that was contingent

638
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: on PITH data, How would I have any idea that

639
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: it's clean, high quality data that's being contributed to it

640
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: by you or the partner. A couple of questions in

641
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: that one, you know, I'll go for the data model. Sure,

642
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: I mean not have like the most exciting on SATA,

643
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: but in the oaldy that I think the feeds that

644
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: are coming out of exchanges are primarily consumed by two

645
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: classes of participants. One our films like jump like we're

646
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: do like GDS, i'll do a lot of other participants

647
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: in the pit network that are ingesting this data execute

648
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 1: on like high frequent secuting strategies that needed isspond in

649
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: very New York time to allow these events, right, And

650
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 1: modern matching engines have determinism on the order of microcycles

651
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: and or or sometimes you know a lot flow and

652
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: block change, you know by construction. And it only was

653
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: just talking about like as long as you know, like

654
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: theoretically as fast as is going to get because you know,

655
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: you're limited by how quickly you can communicate to a

656
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: global network of computers and come to consensus, especially over

657
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: the public Internet. And so you're talking about like hundreds

658
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: of millar cycles, right, and a microsycutitis two hundreds of

659
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: millar syconds as a second is Stuart Day, And so

660
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 1: you're talking about some pretty dramatic differences here, and so

661
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: the data feeds that are coming out of these exchanges.

662
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: The the thing that's probably not distracted by a blockchain

663
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: based data feed is is the level of subscription that

664
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: that a home and jump needs. There it consume interact

665
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 1: with hyper constituting strategies. Now there is a second us

666
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: of data consumers. There are more human time or modial time,

667
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: right and these are the guy the analysts that are

668
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: picking up the phone on the underdesk in providing commentary

669
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: on the UK of its back office systems across the world,

670
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: like all the classes of participants that don't need data

671
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: every couple of hundred nanoseconds but don't really want a

672
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes to the right and that data model now

673
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 1: now definitely you know, starts to starts to get distracted

674
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: with with something like with something like it, what else

675
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 1: canry out of that by saying is that what's far

676
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: more exciting with a blockshain based data play like PIT

677
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: is the en chain applications that as you know, you

678
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: were talking about some of the guests that you had

679
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 1: that we're talking about some of the applications that could

680
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: be learned using this data. Uh and yeah, I almost

681
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: think of the disruption of that second class of a

682
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: data model as basically a side of act of what's

683
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: being there. And then you know it's it's primary motive.

684
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: And then what about the data quality part? How do

685
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: we know it? They call that what Jump is contributing

686
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: to is how do we know it's good data? Right? So,

687
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: the way the system works is as a network of

688
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: independent data providers that are effectively that are all publishing

689
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: their prices as transactions into the Slana blanchain and just

690
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: to get into the reeds a little bit here. Along

691
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 1: with their prices, these data providers are also publishing uncertainties

692
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,479
Speaker 1: or confidence in the both associated with these prices. And

693
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 1: you know what that and that's kind of a non

694
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: ipuitive concept when it comes to the prices. But depending

695
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: on the market structure, any given trade that you're seeing,

696
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: or any given snapshot of the liquidities that you see

697
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: on any given venue, inherently it's just an observation that

698
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: has someone certainty on a waving price. It's like a

699
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,959
Speaker 1: measurement that you make in the lab. And these data

700
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: providers are publishing this uncertainty and this price to the

701
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 1: blockchain and over there, like Salana, there's an on chain

702
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 1: program on Salana that's ingesting these inputs and doing some

703
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: slightly intelligent aggregation to handle out lives, throw away that

704
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: data and and and create like a final pith price

705
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 1: and and an uncertainty that is that is like a

706
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: that's on the price as a whole, right, and so

707
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 1: developed buggers that are using these prices are basically seeing

708
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: the aggregate of a lot of this of this data

709
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: that's being ingested and ugially have this like extra field

710
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: of uncertainty that has a degree of freedom and the

711
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: applications that they're building with and having this big diversity

712
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: of quotas is critically important. Right, There's a lot of

713
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 1: reduced syncrasies that that come into player. Right. Exchanges are

714
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: like creating forms could have technology problems. You could have

715
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: flash crashes on any independent venue. You could have people

716
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 1: who deputing game systems. You could have big fat finger

717
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: prints that cause and you need you are you ideally

718
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: want this auticle system to be highly robust to those

719
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 1: kinds of events. The second thing that that the other

720
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: thing that it does is when you have a net

721
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: work of these first party data providers, it's a consolidation

722
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: of indridenced across the entire landscape, right, and so depending

723
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: on market structure of any given asset class, like the

724
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: U S sequities, you have drag NMS that ensures that

725
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: the so led to US equity values trade off the line.

726
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: That's not the case for crypto effects treasuries, lots of

727
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: other international equity markets, and that leads to fracture pools

728
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: of liquidity that are often separated by geopolitical boundaries, right.

729
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: And so pricing information that's being submitted by new new

730
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: participants as they're coming onto the PIT network adds to

731
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: a representation of like a global price for a lot

732
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: of these sources. And so not only doesn't give you

733
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: a good representation of the price, but also the distribution

734
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: of those prices, which is potentially very interesting dat And

735
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 1: you know, as we see like k g I and

736
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: m g O and and FDx and like all the

737
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: participants across Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, London, a lot of

738
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: US venues coming onto the network. It's it's significantly shouldend.

739
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: It's so that's kind of like you know a big

740
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 1: piece of what makes the data very US very high

741
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: quality and you know, much better source suppressing for for

742
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: application to all of us to use. So I'm curious

743
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,919
Speaker 1: just going back to the beginning of this conversation where

744
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: we were talking about how Salona actually works. So if

745
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: most of this is about expanding the network, upgrading hardware

746
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: versus actual improvements on the computer science that underlines it,

747
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: like what is the next big thing for Salona? What

748
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: are you working on right now? And like where do

749
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: you see it going? So um, the innovation and the

750
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: computer science part we just got lucky with. That's usually

751
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: how it happens, if it works, uh, and that's been

752
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: that's been you know, a blessing for us because we've

753
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: been really focused stun the hard work of like realistically

754
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: takes ten years to build a new operating system, a

755
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: new database. The stuff doesn't happen overnight. And that's because

756
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: you're trying to take this abstract idea and form it

757
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: into real world CPUs, GPUs, you know network cards that

758
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: have you know, their own behaviors, and to do that

759
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: in an efficient way, it just takes a lot of

760
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: kind of you know, blood, sweat and tears. So a

761
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: lot of the development that engineers do at kind of

762
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 1: the core protocol level is optimizations that you would see

763
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: folks doing if they're working in a Linux kernel or

764
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: you know database like you know, my my sequel or

765
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: something like that, you know, looking at memory, looking at

766
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: throughput block contention and trying to see where do we

767
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: have bottlenecks that if a validator that isn't you know,

768
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: working on software. If they add more hardware, they add

769
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: more as systees and more network cards, they should see

770
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: that improvement, you know, from from that right from that

771
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: investment that that's really kind of like our our goal

772
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: here is to make this thing elastic with a hardware

773
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 1: that's given to it. I want to like, you know, zooma.

774
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: One of the things in the whole crypto space is

775
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:17,760
Speaker 1: each generation accuses the next generation of being insufficiently decentralized

776
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: by some metric. Right, so big cooiners look at Ethereum

777
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: and they say, oh, Ethereum has a vitalic, and we

778
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: is like, okay, no one knows who Setoshi was, he

779
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: has no influence anymore, though people try to still like

780
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: understand his writings. But then Ethereum they say, oh, you

781
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: have vitalic. He's the leader of it and there's consensus

782
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 1: and that foundation and also an individual can't run a

783
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 1: full note like we can on a Raspberry Pie, so

784
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: it's insufficiently decentralized. And then the ethereums look at Salana

785
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, you have and it told you

786
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: who's a CEO. We don't even have a CEO, but

787
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: there's a CEO, and you need a big data center.

788
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: And even maybe it's a little bit more tough to

789
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: run a note on a theorium, at least theory, it

790
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: could still be done. You need you can't. Really, someone

791
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 1: can't run a full UH Salona node on their home computer.

792
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: You're insufficiently decentralized. And so I'm curious, like, how concerned

793
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: should one be or what, let's put it this way,

794
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: why shouldn't one be concerned about the lack of decentralization

795
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: on Salona That here's a company. You're the CEO of

796
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: Salona Labs. I get that's different than the protocol, but

797
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: obviously you have a lot of influence and there's no

798
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: way I could run a full note UH at home.

799
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: So why shouldn't I be worried about Salona decentralization? You

800
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: could run a full note at your local day son, right,

801
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: Like okay, So so I've always felt that it's not

802
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 1: about like lowering the berry to entry. It's about making

803
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: the thing on the other side so valuable that you're

804
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: willing to kind of, you know, crawl through broken glass

805
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 1: to get there. So in this case, right being having

806
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: access financial data, access to the network where you can

807
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: trade and participate in the next generation of finance at

808
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: the same speed as jump trading. Like for me as

809
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: an engineer when I was working at Qualcom, I would

810
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: have drove to like, you know, Hurricane Electric and set

811
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: up my note like that day, like as soon as

812
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: I would learned about it. Right, Like, that's not a

813
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: big deal for for somebody that wants to do it.

814
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: So what I in terms of decentralization that question specifically,

815
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: The way we look at it is we try to

816
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: address all the quantifiable variables that we can uh and

817
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: the specific one that we care about is this mac

818
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: maximizing the minimum set of independent parties that can get

819
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: to thirty of the stakeweight in the network. And that's

820
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: a very specific thing. Bology talked about it, calling it

821
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: the Nakamotico efficient. You kind of look at the network

822
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 1: and you try to find what is the smallest set

823
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: of parties of participants. However, you slice this network that

824
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: if they all collude it at the same time, that

825
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: could shut it down. So they can never steal funds

826
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: because the layer one doesn't take custody of your funds,

827
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: your cryptographic keys that you own, those things actually help

828
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: hold custody. But if you're talking about trading, right, or

829
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: even payments, like a big big payments company right starts

830
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 1: using Salana for payments, what they care about is that

831
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: the service never gets interrupted, right, it stays fair and

832
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 1: transparent and censorship resistance. It's far more important trading. But

833
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: also in any financial use case, interruptions cost money. Right,

834
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: So maximizing that minimum set is a quantifiable measurement of decentralization.

835
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 1: You can start slicing it by data centers, by geographic locations,

836
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:45,240
Speaker 1: worldwide distribution routers, b GP routing routes, right like everywhere

837
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: you look at it. How do we make sure that

838
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: that problem is as hard for an attacker to pull

839
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: off as possible? And in that sense, it's going back

840
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 1: to this like nuclear strike analogy Byzantine fault tolerant nuclear

841
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: strike detector. How do we make sure that it's as

842
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 1: hard as possible for an attacker to disrupt service, so

843
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: that that form of decentralization, I think is is like measurable,

844
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 1: and if we succeed there, then we can deliver value

845
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: to in our humans. That that's the real form of decentralization.

846
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: How many humans actually care about this thing being alive?

847
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: I just have one more question for you, uh and

848
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: totally um. You know one thing that we haven't mentioned.

849
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: Sam Bankman Freed is a was an early investor, right

850
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 1: and we've had him on the podcast twice in one

851
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: it's like the year of SBF. Like f t X

852
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 1: is exchange has done incredibly well. You know, Alameda has

853
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: trading hedge fund. I think they've done phenomenally well. Can

854
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about his role and his

855
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 1: contribution to Salona and how helpful that has been This

856
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 1: sort of like the dovetailing with f t X, I

857
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: think everything that gets you know, every new launch on

858
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 1: Salana seems to get traded there very quickly. The is

859
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: a a token called Mango, they're just launched, it's already

860
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: trading there. How talk about the sort of the synergies

861
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: and the significance of that. Yeah, So um, FTX was in.

862
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 1: Our connection with Sam really started about a year ago,

863
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 1: not not like super early in the life of Salona

864
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: simply because we know, you know, we got connected to

865
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: them even before that, but they were looking for something

866
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: that worked. They don't really care about our theoretical claims,

867
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: like when is the Singing to be live? Was like

868
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 1: the first question out of out of Sam's mob Um.

869
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: And after we launch, we had this little game called

870
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 1: break You you know you've connected the network, it sets

871
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: up and you pay a little bit of fees, like

872
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: a few sounds, and then you can smash to your

873
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: keyboard and you see transactions fighter off and get confirmed

874
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: on your screen. It's incredibly dumb, but it really like

875
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: show to their engineers that like, Okay, this thing is

876
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: really live. These are real smart contracts. You can go

877
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,439
Speaker 1: and build whatever you want on it, and it's fast

878
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: and cheap. And that's why kicked off there and kind

879
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 1: of internal team to go incubate Serum built a central

880
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: limit order book, which is something that they really wanted

881
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 1: to do for years, Like really as soon as they

882
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 1: started trading on crypto and building ft X, there was

883
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,280
Speaker 1: this like how do we do this in a decentralized way, Well,

884
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: we don't want to do something cheesy like an Ethereum

885
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 1: layer two that like doesn't really like do do like

886
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: a full censorship resistant chain. So that was really symbiotic

887
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: really from day one, from that moment because the engineers

888
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: saw how cool what we built and that it actually worked.

889
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 1: And at that time people remember like about you know,

890
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: a year and a half ago, f t X was

891
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: not like the juggernaut at this today. Right like the

892
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: it was a much smaller exchange. There were an up

893
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: and coming exchange. Everyone loves SAM, but it was much

894
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: much smaller and I you know, we started both kind

895
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 1: of taking off. Right around when Serium launched UM, a

896
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 1: lot of developers started looking into Salana. The tools were

897
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: really rough at that moment, you know, that time and

898
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: the work that the Siriam team put in and just

899
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 1: building things and showing okay, this is how things work,

900
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: this is this is how the libraries work, and how

901
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: you get started. That had tremendous effect on onboarding new developers.

902
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: Just simply having another another experts start generating you know, code,

903
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: These are examples, this is how you interact with Sirium

904
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 1: and of course you know through that participation, UM you know,

905
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 1: Jump and Pith and all those guys. Really I think

906
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: their eyes open to that. I think there is it's

907
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: possible to build on next generation of finance and a

908
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 1: essentialized way. So you know, as much as you see

909
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: Sam on Twitter, the folks at that fifth and Jump

910
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: have been doing as much of the work behind the scenes,

911
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: just not as loudly. Uh well, an a totally and

912
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 1: kind of. It was a fantastic discussion. Really appreciate both

913
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: of you joining us and thanks for coming on odd lot. Yeah, thanks,

914
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you so much. Cheers. I thought that

915
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: that was really interesting. You know what, actually, I think

916
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: what really struck me is I mean there was a

917
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: lot there's a lot there on Untillys Point, you know.

918
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: He he said, well, it's like anyone can go set

919
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: up a Salona note at their local data center. And

920
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: at first when he said that, I was like, well,

921
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: that's some sort of like weird joke because I'm never

922
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: going to do that, But actually, I guess the idea

923
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: it does kind of make sense. It's clearly like not

924
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 1: a network that people can look run like as a

925
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: hobby or like on their laptop. But as his point,

926
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 1: it's like, well if anyone can do it equally, and

927
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 1: we know that this is a problem in finance current

928
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: which is this sort of like perceived inequality of who

929
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 1: has the faster hardware or who has an antenna tower

930
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 1: somewhere in New Jersey closer to the NYC Data Center

931
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 1: or whatever. If anyone could do equally, it may not

932
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: be available to everyone, but that does seem like an

933
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 1: interesting potential solution or interesting potential reimagining of how finance

934
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: could be made more fair. Well, on a related note,

935
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:31,280
Speaker 1: I thought his point about, you know, it's not really

936
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: about the technological innovation but more about getting people acquainted

937
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:41,760
Speaker 1: with cryptography and getting people to understand that interesting too. Yeah,

938
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: that was very interesting, although I gotta say, like without

939
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 1: some sort of improvement in the interface, um, I just

940
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: I find it hard to imagine that like millions of

941
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: people are going to be doing deep but um but

942
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: you know that could come in time. But and of course,

943
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: on the other hand, if you have the networks like Jump,

944
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 1: in Vertue and a bunch of others, then you know

945
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 1: they're interacting with the protocol at the sort of like

946
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: the API level, as opposed to like the you know,

947
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: the unicorns on the Unicorn Graphics on unit swap. Um.

948
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: You know what it's interesting is like, you know, thinking

949
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 1: of hearing from hearing about this from jump perspective. I

950
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: thought it was super interesting too, because it's like there's like,

951
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 1: you know, there's serious muscle in this space. Though, like

952
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 1: anyone who thinks this going away or a fad or whatever,

953
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: I think at this point is like missing missing a

954
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: pretty big story. Yeah. I mean, it seems like so

955
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,320
Speaker 1: many um well, so much money and so many people

956
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 1: are tied up in the industry now that it would

957
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 1: be very, very difficult for it to go away. I

958
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: agree with that. Yeah, No, I think that, you know,

959
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,280
Speaker 1: and again I I think like this idea, like for years,

960
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: this idea I always sort of just took it for granted,

961
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: like the idea of blockchains have to be bad, blockchains

962
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 1: have to be expensive, they have to be slow, And

963
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: it's interesting that in that I'm gonna tell you just like, no,

964
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: they don't. There's a different way to do it. Yeah,

965
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking, you know that notion that like it's

966
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 1: not so much about innovation in the computer science anymore,

967
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 1: but on the network and hardware side. I mean I'm

968
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 1: kind of well, look, I'm not an engineer, so what

969
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,840
Speaker 1: do I know, But like I know that technology changes

970
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 1: sort of all the time, and so I do wonder

971
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 1: if something could come. I mean this, this to me

972
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: is like a tension in the crypto space because you're

973
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 1: trying to build a network and you want the network

974
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 1: to be as ubiquitous as possible. But at the same time,

975
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:39,879
Speaker 1: people are trying to build better networks all the time

976
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: and then make those bigger, and it just seems like

977
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, it just seems like you're sort

978
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: of getting constant change at the moment, and I don't

979
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: know when we're going to settle or coalesce around one thing. No,

980
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: I think this that was a great question, and I

981
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 1: do think that, like it is a question for some

982
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: of these like so called like layer one, like smart

983
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: country acting contract platforms, like the barriers to entry in them,

984
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: because like you know, and I'm sure like if we

985
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: talk to an Ethereum person, they would say, like, oh,

986
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: Ethereum has like ten x as much you know, fift

987
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: x as much money involved, and you know, a thousand

988
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:20,240
Speaker 1: more um you know, a thousand x war developers, etcetera.

989
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 1: But it's not obvious to me, like the degree of mode.

990
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 1: I guess motives, motives the word I'm looking for, Like,

991
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 1: how do we know that a sustainable mode exists in

992
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: this space? And it's not obvious to me that like

993
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 1: we know where that is or that that's been established

994
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: by anyone yet. Yeah, totally I would agree with that. Um, okay,

995
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 1: shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. This

996
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: has been another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast. I'm

997
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy

998
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: Alloway and I'm Joe Wisn'tal. You can follow me on

999
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 1: Twitter at the Stalwork and follow our guests on Twitter

1000
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 1: and a totally yaka Vanka. He is the CEO of

1001
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: Salana Labs. He is at a E. Jakovenko and follow

1002
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 1: kind of Korea. He's a head of New Initiatives and

1003
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: Crypto at Jump Trading. He is at Korea kind of

1004
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: and be sure to follow our producer Laura Carlson. She's

1005
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: at Laura M. Carlson. Followed the Bloomberg Head of podcast

1006
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: Francesca Levi at Francesca Today and check out all of

1007
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:28,439
Speaker 1: our podcast at Bloomberg under the handle at podcasts. Thanks

1008
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: for listening.