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Speaker 1: Body Vialus with Joseph Scott More.

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Speaker 2: Some have said over the years that geographically, and I'm

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Speaker 2: only speaking about geography here, that California can be all

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Speaker 2: things to all people. I've heard it said over the

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Speaker 2: years as well, that you know, in the same day

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Speaker 2: you can go snow skiing, and then later on that

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Speaker 2: same day you can find yourself in the Pacific Ocean

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Speaker 2: riding a surfboard. That's pretty amazing when you think about it.

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Speaker 2: But just think for a moment you live inland, back

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Speaker 2: toward those beautiful mountains that if you've not paid attention

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Speaker 2: to before, when you fly into La, there's snowcapped. Pretty macing,

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Speaker 2: isn't it. There's snowcap many times year round those high elevations.

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Speaker 2: But just imagine that you're tooling along the road outside

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Speaker 2: of Banning, California, and you find a girl in nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy nine, of course, and there in a snow bank,

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Speaker 2: not too far away, interestingly enough, from Palm Springs, California,

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Speaker 2: which of course is a desert town. But in a

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Speaker 2: snow bank you find a young girl who has been

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Speaker 2: raped and who has been beaten to death, and there

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Speaker 2: is no one, no one to blame for it, but

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Speaker 2: you do have a lone individual that took time out

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Speaker 2: of their day to see her and make the call

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Speaker 2: that he had found a dead body. Today, we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about a cold case that has now been

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Speaker 2: solved after many many years. We're talking, of course, about

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Speaker 2: the case of Esther Gonzales. Coming to you from the

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Speaker 2: studios at Jacksonville State University. This is Joseph Scott Morgan

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Speaker 2: and this is Bodybacks. Dave. You have spent a good

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Speaker 2: portion or had spent a good portion of your life

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Speaker 2: in California, and you were kind enough to remind me

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Speaker 2: of that fact that many Californians talk about skiing and

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Speaker 2: one one day in surfing that same day, which is

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Speaker 2: kind of kind of amazing when you think about it,

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Speaker 2: you know, because I got to tell you anytime I

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Speaker 2: go to LA, first off, I try to get in

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Speaker 2: and out as quickly as I can, and quick quick

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Speaker 2: in LA don't match most of the time, and I

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Speaker 2: don't spend I've never spent any time exploring the interior,

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Speaker 2: and particularly in southern California. Up in northern California have

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Speaker 2: but I've never taken time to go up toward that

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Speaker 2: area around Big Bear and all that which I hear

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Speaker 2: is absolutely gorgeous.

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Speaker 1: Well, as a kid, you got to remember I was

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Speaker 1: a child growing up there. I was born in Hawthorne.

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Speaker 1: I was raised in Orange County on the Long Beach,

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Speaker 1: and then Placentia yor Balinda, Fullerton, all in that area

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Speaker 1: of southern California. And it is a fact that you

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Speaker 1: can drive up to Big Bear at certain times of

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Speaker 1: the year and you can go skiing or playing in

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Speaker 1: the snow in the morning, drive home, get warmed up,

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Speaker 1: and eat some lunch, and then go to the beach

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Speaker 1: that afternoon. But I always tell people that you've got

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Speaker 1: to realize that the water on the West Coast is

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Speaker 1: nothing compared to the East Coast or the Gulf of

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Speaker 1: Mexico out there. It's funny. Remember the opening of the

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Speaker 1: TV show The Monkeys or the Monkeys, right, and it

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Speaker 1: would showed them running towards the ocean and then they

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Speaker 1: dodge the water as they run back out. People in

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Speaker 1: the South don't understand that going to the Gulf of

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Speaker 1: Mexico or the Atlantic Ocean, the water's warm. Yes, it

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Speaker 1: is cold, and it takes time, even in the dead

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Speaker 1: of summer to get used to that cold water.

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Speaker 2: I don't I don't know that you could ever get

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Speaker 2: used to it. I've been, you know, I've been to

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Speaker 2: Mussel Beach and uh, Huntington and where else have I been?

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Speaker 2: Redondo in particular, a friend that lived there. And look,

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Speaker 2: it's beautiful. I mean, it is absolutely gorgeous. But if

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Speaker 2: you take your shoes and socks off and you begin

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Speaker 2: to stroll through there, you're freezing, man, and and and

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Speaker 2: you think, well, that's that's California. And certainly if you

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Speaker 2: go down, you know, the Baja Peninsula, it's got to

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Speaker 2: warm up. It doesn't.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't.

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Speaker 2: You can go all the way down into Mexico on

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Speaker 2: the Pacific, the Pacific Ocean in and of itself, it's

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Speaker 2: cold dictates weather systems that affect us all the way

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Speaker 2: over here on the East coast of the United States.

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Speaker 2: And but you know, you get this, uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: environmental diversity that goes on out there with and I

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Speaker 2: think that that's one of the things that originally attracted

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Speaker 2: people to California, that it is so incredibly beautiful. You know,

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Speaker 2: they call it the Golden State. I guess for multiple reasons. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: you know, for the discovery of gold probably, but for

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Speaker 2: a myriad of other reasons as well. I had friends

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Speaker 2: that got home from Vietnam, you know, years and years ago,

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Speaker 2: these old guys that I'd been in the Army with

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Speaker 2: when I was a young guy, and they would tell me,

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Speaker 2: you know, when they got back to California and they

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Speaker 2: were mustering out of the military, that California back then

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Speaker 2: was one of the most beautiful places that they had

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Speaker 2: ever seen in their life. And many of them settled

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Speaker 2: out there, and you know, and I know your family

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Speaker 2: did too, but you know, yeah, and then they left.

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Speaker 2: You know, we have a lot of them that have

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Speaker 2: relocated to the South, not too far from us. But

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Speaker 2: you know, you think about this case all the way

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Speaker 2: back from nineteen seventy nine, and I was trying to

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Speaker 2: and I forgive me because I do this every single

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Speaker 2: time we cover one of these cases that our friends

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Speaker 2: at AUTHORM are involved in. And I'll go ahead and

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Speaker 2: bury the lead here and say that they are involved

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Speaker 2: in this case, and one of the reasons we're covering

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Speaker 2: is because we believe strongly in what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: Dave.

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Speaker 2: I always think about where was I in nineteen seventy nine,

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Speaker 2: and I think I was in junior high school. Perhaps

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Speaker 2: I think that's where I was. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: was in the top fifty. I can't remember back that far,

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Speaker 2: but I'm thinking probably Boss Gags, and you know, I

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Speaker 2: don't know Doobie Brothers. I have no idea music was

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Speaker 2: kind of cool, saying wow, holy smokes. Okay, well there

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Speaker 2: you go. But you know, we think about Esther Gonzalez.

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Speaker 1: Who seventeen years old, Joe seventeen. Think about that for

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Speaker 1: a minute. She's seventeen. She is the fourth of seven

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Speaker 1: children in her family, and she's going to walk a

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Speaker 1: couples again. Nineteen seventy nine, a few years after the

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Speaker 1: hippies and hitchhiking and all that. She's walking in an

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Speaker 1: area that isn't that dangerous to be walking. You wouldn't

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Speaker 1: do it now in nineteen seventy nine, you would. She's

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Speaker 1: walking from her parents' house in Beaumont, California, to her

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Speaker 1: sister's house in Banning, California. When she doesn't arrive at

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Speaker 1: her sister's house, they they start losing it because the

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Speaker 1: next day and then I identified man calls deputy saying

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Speaker 1: he found a body in the snowpack. Her family is

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Speaker 1: losing it, they don't know where she is, and the

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Speaker 1: next day she's dead. Think about that for a minute.

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Speaker 1: Seventeen years old and gone, and as the even then,

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Speaker 1: I would think he'd solve this pretty quick. A dead

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Speaker 1: body in the snow here we go.

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Speaker 2: You know why, I don't think you would solve this

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Speaker 2: very quick?

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Speaker 1: Why is that?

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Speaker 2: And this is this is my thoughts.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: One of the reasons is, well, first off, I don't

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Speaker 2: know what path that she took to get there, but

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Speaker 2: I know on foot walking that distance, which is about

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Speaker 2: six miles, I think, and I don't know what kind

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Speaker 2: of terrain it would necessarily be over, but walking this

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Speaker 2: distance is going to take you about two hours is

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Speaker 2: what Google map says nowadays based upon this. One of

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Speaker 2: the reasons I think that this is troublesome is because

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Speaker 2: that line that you're talking about, and it is a

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Speaker 2: straight line going from Beaumont to Banning, California, it literally

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Speaker 2: parallels I ten, which is one of the major corridors

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Speaker 2: interstate corridors in the nation. I mean, you can, man,

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Speaker 2: you could hop on Ien adjacent to Bank, California and

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Speaker 2: drive and drive all the way to Jacksonville, Florida, right

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Speaker 2: and did you know I was actually involved. I wasn't involved.

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Speaker 2: I investigated a couple of cases. Please, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: maybe we need to edit that out. I was not involved,

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Speaker 2: but I actually I was. Actually I investigated. I was

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Speaker 2: part of a team that I think I caught to

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Speaker 2: the cases when I was in New Orleans. That case

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Speaker 2: was called the I ten killer, and we think that

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Speaker 2: that individual killed along the corridor from Jacksonville, Florida, to Beaumont, Texas.

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Speaker 2: Not Beaumont, California, but that stretch. And of course you're

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Speaker 2: dealing with long haul truckers, you know, that's what they're thinking.

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Speaker 2: And so anytime I hear interstate and I find out

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Speaker 2: that there is a location immediately adjacent to a major

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Speaker 2: thoroughfare like I ten or I twenty or I forty

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Speaker 2: or any of these, any of these, I'm thinking, this

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Speaker 2: is going to be a quick thing where someone has

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Speaker 2: killed somebody in dump their body, and it was. It

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Speaker 2: would be very easy to do. And hey, you know,

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Speaker 2: back then, one of the things that we didn't have

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Speaker 2: were surveillance cameras at all. You know, I don't even

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Speaker 2: know that if there is a rest stop in that

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Speaker 2: area that they would have even have had you know, CCTV.

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Speaker 1: I would like to add that I now feel really

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Speaker 1: stupid for saying I can't. I thought they would have

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Speaker 1: had this figured out. It didn't occur to me about

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Speaker 1: I ten at that corridor there right now.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean, there's no need to feel stupid about it.

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Speaker 2: It's just I don't know. I've had enough experiences with

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Speaker 2: with working around interstates either, and just to enumerate the

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Speaker 2: ones I've been around to kind of validate my experience,

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Speaker 2: I ten aforementioned I ten, I seventy five in Atlanta,

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Speaker 2: I eighty five, the two to eighty five perimeter that

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Speaker 2: goes all the way around Atlanta, and so all of these,

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Speaker 2: all of these factor in and it's nothing to have

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Speaker 2: a body dumped alongside. As a matter of fact, probably

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Speaker 2: one of the most infamous cases I ever worked involved

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Speaker 2: to eighty five during the Final four that was played,

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Speaker 2: I think it was in Atlanta. Well, it had to

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Speaker 2: have men. Two fellows had strong armed robbed a guy

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Speaker 2: in one of the downtown hotels in Atlanta, stole his

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Speaker 2: final four tickets after blowing his brains out in his car,

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Speaker 2: dumping his body on two eighty five driving away, driving backtown,

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Speaker 2: used back into Atlanta, used his room to sleep in,

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Speaker 2: attended the game, and you know where they were found

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Speaker 2: Dave in Ohio by an Ohio State trooper and he

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Speaker 2: pulled them over for I think they were breaking center

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Speaker 2: line or something like that. He walks up to the car,

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Speaker 2: looks in the back of the car and there's blood

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Speaker 2: and brain matter all over the interior headliner of that car.

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Speaker 2: And I had the results, you know, laying on it

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Speaker 2: and it was freezing cold on the ground there, you know,

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Speaker 2: on the Interstate where his body was just kind of

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Speaker 2: pushed out. And that gives you an indication if you're

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Speaker 2: adjacent to one of these major thoroughfares, you can just

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Speaker 2: throw a body out, drive on, go about your business.

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Speaker 2: How often do you and I travel down the Interstate

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Speaker 2: and you might see a bag laying alongside the road.

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Speaker 2: Do you ever do this? You see a bag laying

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Speaker 2: alongside the road, and particularly given the fact of what

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Speaker 2: line of work we're in now, and you think, hmm,

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Speaker 2: what's in I wonder what's in that bag? I've always

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Speaker 2: had had that thought, you know, because somebody can dump

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Speaker 2: something along the side of the road and then they're gone.

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Speaker 2: They're gone. They just vanish.

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Speaker 1: And that's what we have here. We have a seventeen

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Speaker 1: year old who was walking from one place to another

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Speaker 1: with multiple miles in between, two hour walk, and she

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Speaker 1: never makes it to her destination. The next day, Pariff's

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Speaker 1: deputies get the CALLAR found a dead body. Now, Joe,

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Speaker 1: when you've called it the finder, the person who finds

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Speaker 1: the body, are they the person that the police are

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Speaker 1: going to look at? And good, no matter how I'm nice,

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Speaker 1: this person seems, no matter how honest they seem, they're

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Speaker 1: the one calling in this dead body. We got to

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Speaker 1: talk to this person.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I never assume anyone's innocence period. I don't care

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Speaker 2: how kindly. No, I'm just no, I'm jaded. I'm jaded,

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Speaker 2: but you know, I think that you have to have

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Speaker 2: because if you let me just put it to you

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Speaker 2: this way on balance, if you're not jaded, then the

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Speaker 2: only you can you can try to play it down

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Speaker 2: the middle of the road. Okay, and you should, I

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Speaker 2: guess intellectually. But I'm suspicious of anybody that previously that

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Speaker 2: I would, And I got to say some of that

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Speaker 2: carries over into just to ask my kids. I'm suspicious

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Speaker 2: of everybody, and the work itself has done that to me.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know. I guess that's that's one of

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Speaker 2: my big faults I need to work on. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: because if if you're not, then you're going. And people

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Speaker 2: that commit homicides many times have serious psychopathology. And the

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Speaker 2: thing about this is that people that present with psychopathology

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Speaker 2: that you might not be aware of, guess what they are.

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Speaker 2: They have the ability to be master manipulators. And just

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Speaker 2: think you're the family of Esther Gonzales and for all

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Speaker 2: these years you never knew, you never knew what happened

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Speaker 2: to your beloved daughter, and the evidence was right in

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Speaker 2: front of your face all along. I know, I kind

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Speaker 2: of went down a rabbit hole with this Dave. But

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Speaker 2: relative to I ten and that sort of thing. But

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Speaker 2: Esther's remains were actually found in a snowbank that was

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Speaker 2: along State Highway two forty three would actually parallels I

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Speaker 2: ten or it's immediately adjacent to that area. It's it's

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Speaker 2: in more of a an off the beaten path area.

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Speaker 2: And I can't imagine that through that area that you

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Speaker 2: would have snowpack or snow banks that were adjacent to

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Speaker 2: I through that area, but it approximates that area, but

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Speaker 2: the highway that they were actually looking at is two

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Speaker 2: forty three. Let me ask you something. Have have you

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Speaker 2: personally ever called anything into nine to eleven during the

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Speaker 2: course of your adult life.

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Speaker 1: I called in two different times. One I saw a

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Speaker 1: bear that had escaped a train from a circus train,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, it's crazy. What here's the funny party. It

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Speaker 1: was a story we were covering on the radio. Okay,

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Speaker 1: and so you know we're bare of the bear. You know,

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Speaker 1: you got out of the train and all that. And anyway,

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Speaker 1: so I'm driving home. I lived the country at the time,

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Speaker 1: and as I'm driving down, I see this bear and

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Speaker 1: I had a camera and I realized then why we

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Speaker 1: don't have any great video of Bigfoot because I grabbed

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Speaker 1: my camera. But by the time I got my camera

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Speaker 1: up and was trying to get video, he was gone.

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Speaker 1: He took off. But yeah, I called that in. And

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Speaker 1: then the other time I actually called in a dead body.

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Speaker 1: I saw a murder victim holy smokes on side of

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Speaker 1: the road not far from where I saw the bear,

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I saw this guy and the thing was

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Speaker 1: he was laying down, you know, I saw the I

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Speaker 1: saw his jacket, okay, and he's laying over there about

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Speaker 1: fifty yards off the road. And when you see somebody

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Speaker 1: in a kind of wooded area, but not thickwood, and

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Speaker 1: it's just an odd thing to see. You know. Seeing

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Speaker 1: a jacket is one thing, but seeing a full grown

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Speaker 1: person laying down and not moving, Yeah, there's a problem.

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Speaker 1: And then I saw what appeared to be like a moped,

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Speaker 1: some type of motorized bike, and it looked like it

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Speaker 1: was sitting over, you know, like it had been dumped.

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Speaker 1: And then so I called that in. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Please, I got to ask when you made these phone

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Speaker 2: calls and you interacted with law enforcement, were you argumentative?

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Speaker 1: No? I was begging them, please believe me. You know,

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Speaker 1: the bear was the one that was weird, because they said, okay,

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Speaker 1: first of all, I thought this was a joke. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know it was real. But I just saw a bear.

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Speaker 1: I hope it's the bear from the train because I

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Speaker 1: got little kids, and if it's not, I need I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm good, I'm on my way to grab a gun,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's what. Yeah, but the body, I was

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Speaker 1: really freaked out by the body. I didn't get near it.

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Speaker 1: I parked, you know, where I saw it. I parked

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Speaker 1: in the side of the road and I paid attention

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Speaker 1: to what was going on. I looked for cars. It

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Speaker 1: was very out in the middle of nowhere, and I

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Speaker 1: did wait to make sure that nobody messed with it.

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Speaker 1: Nobody came by to check it out. Of course I

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Speaker 1: was scared, but you know I waited.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, in Esther's case, they do have a

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Speaker 2: finder in this case, Dave, And my understanding is now,

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Speaker 2: keep in mind, I can only imagine what these records

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Speaker 2: look like for the cold case detectives, because this was

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Speaker 2: a cold case. And but annotated in that record is

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Speaker 2: the fact that the finder, the finder was actually argumentative

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Speaker 2: with the bind Yeah, that's that's the big question here.

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Speaker 2: Why would you argue with the police? I have my

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Speaker 2: own suspicions, but i'm you know, that's the reason I

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Speaker 2: wanted to ask you, did you did you ever? You know,

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Speaker 2: come and glued because I've made nine to one one

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Speaker 2: calls before. Yeah, yeah, I have. You know, when I've

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Speaker 2: seen things on the road or you know, I saw

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Speaker 2: somebody sides white, multiple people one night actually outside of Birmingham,

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Speaker 2: really and I called called in uh to nine to

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Speaker 2: eleven you know, to say, look, I'm behind this person.

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Speaker 2: I've seen this happen and you've got people on the

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Speaker 2: shoulder of the road, and it was you know, it's

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Speaker 2: kind of terrifying. And but I didn't scream and shout

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Speaker 2: at the operator. But I'm just thinking, what, what's your

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Speaker 2: purpose for being, you know, being argumentative?

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Speaker 1: I looked at the same thing on this one, Joe.

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Speaker 1: All I was thinking is, how would you be argumentative?

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Speaker 1: You find a body, you call it in, how are

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Speaker 1: you argumentative? What did you say that could be construed

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Speaker 1: as argumentative?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't, I don't know. And listen, I know

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Speaker 2: that you've encountered them because we're at that age in

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Speaker 2: our lives where we've worked with all sorts of people

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Speaker 2: over the course of our careers. Have you ever worked

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Speaker 2: with anybody that just they just get up to argue

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Speaker 2: every single day and it's like, I just I don't

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Speaker 2: have time for it. It's it's tedious. But yet you

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Speaker 2: go to work and you run into people like that,

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Speaker 2: and you know you have people that you're related to

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Speaker 2: that are argumented. I think some people do it for sport,

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Speaker 2: but but I have had times over the course of

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Speaker 2: my career as an investigator, where I well, let's just

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Speaker 2: quote Shakespeare here, which you know is one of my defaults.

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Speaker 2: Is uh, I think he does protest too much. You

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Speaker 2: got somebody that's that's screaming and carrying on and acting

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Speaker 2: a fool, as we say, down here in the South,

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Speaker 2: and you're thinking, dude, okay, we're happy you found the body,

347
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Speaker 2: but why are you getting in This is a term

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Speaker 2: that cops used to use. I don't know if they

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Speaker 2: say why are you getting cake with us? And say, yeah, cake,

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Speaker 2: why are you getting why are you getting cake with us?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: So I really wonder, you know, what would be the

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Speaker 2: motivation for a finder, uh to get argumentative with the

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Speaker 2: cops unless the cops, as you would, said, what was

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Speaker 2: it you said just a second ago about the finder?

356
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Speaker 2: I started to run in my mouth and I couldn't

357
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Speaker 2: remember how I've you find her? And unless unless the

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Speaker 2: cops were pressing his buttons to see, if you know,

359
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Speaker 2: kind of testing him to see if this individual was uh,

360
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Speaker 2: was you know, a suspect in this because they know

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Speaker 2: that they've got this young girl, this dead and she's

362
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Speaker 2: discarded on the side of the road. What what was

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Speaker 2: his name?

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Speaker 1: By the way well, Randy Williamson. Randy Williamson was the

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Speaker 1: guy that called this in. Now, Joe, I was doing

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Speaker 1: the same thing as we were putting this together. I'm thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what would he have said or done and what could

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Speaker 1: have pushed a button that made him argumentative? And I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking if if you were kind of flippant, okay, somebody

370
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Speaker 1: finds a body, now, I wouldn't be Now I am.

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Speaker 1: I have changed so much in the last couple of years.

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Speaker 1: Things that I would have made jokes about before, I

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Speaker 1: don't now because I having seen enough of the devastation

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Speaker 1: of humanity and covering the stories day in and day

375
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Speaker 1: out to the point of thankfully I've opened my heart

376
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Speaker 1: to what that means to a family and to the

377
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Speaker 1: loved ones even you know. And so no, I wouldn't

378
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Speaker 1: make jokes about it, but I would be very curious.

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Speaker 1: You're the finder, tell me what you saw from the

380
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Speaker 1: very beginning. What were you doing when you found the body?

381
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Speaker 1: And that could set somebody off if they thought you

382
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Speaker 1: were pointing the finger at them. However, if you're innocent

383
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Speaker 1: of anything, you're going to say, Dude, I was, you know,

384
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Speaker 1: driving down the road and I saw it just like

385
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Speaker 1: I did when I called it in Joe. The nine

386
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Speaker 1: one one operator could not understand what I was saying,

387
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Speaker 1: and I'm like, how do you misunderstand this? And whenever

388
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Speaker 1: we listen to nine one one calls and the operators

389
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Speaker 1: sound like they're not paying attention, would you repeat that?

390
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Speaker 1: That gets irritating.

391
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Speaker 2: So yeah, it does, you know, and you never know

392
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Speaker 2: if you've never been into a nine one one center.

393
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Speaker 2: It's some of these places. You look like you're walking

394
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Speaker 2: onto the Starship Enterprise. It's dark, and it's you know,

395
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 2: you've kind of got these blue lights everywhere, and I

396
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 2: say blue the screens, you know, they're kind of got

397
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 2: this weird luminescence to them. But you know, when this guy,

398
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,360
Speaker 2: and keep in mind this is back in nineteen seventy nine,

399
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Speaker 2: he actually called a substation of it's actually Riverside County

400
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Speaker 2: PD because out in this area where Esther's body would

401
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Speaker 2: have been found is probably unincorporated or was at that

402
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Speaker 2: time unincorporated Riverside County. And for those that don't know,

403
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Speaker 2: if you're if you're if you have a death that

404
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 2: occurs outside of say even if it is adjacent to

405
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Speaker 2: you know, her parents' house in Beaumont or her sister's

406
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Speaker 2: house in Banning. Once you hit the city limits, they're

407
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Speaker 2: just investigative. Jurisdiction ends there. So the fallback position is

408
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Speaker 2: going to be the county sheriff the so they're going

409
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Speaker 2: to send us a squad out there. But here's the thing. Apparently,

410
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Speaker 2: according to these cold case reports, the individual they didn't

411
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Speaker 2: know who he was. They had to track him down,

412
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Speaker 2: you know, and that's one of the when apparently when

413
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: the call he called a substation, when he called it in,

414
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 2: he actually they were asking him, you know, basically because

415
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Speaker 2: it's like any kind of call that you do with

416
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 2: public safety folks, they want to know who is this person,

417
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 2: you know, male female. Well, he was apparently arguing with

418
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: them over the fact that he didn't know if he

419
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Speaker 2: was a male or a female, and then he just

420
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Speaker 2: kind of vanishes and somehow, somehow the police were able

421
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Speaker 2: to go back out and locate him and track him down,

422
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 2: and that's where their initial investigation began with the case.

423
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Speaker 1: Wow, isn't that shocking that they had to track the

424
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Speaker 1: guy down and the fact that they not only had to,

425
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: but that they could. But they get him in there

426
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: and they're sweating him because obviously you don't lose your cookies.

427
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: When you're just saying, this is what I did. I

428
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: found this person and they're dead. You would think mister

429
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: helpful is going to be mister helpful. But apparently Randy

430
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: Williamson did enough to alert police that we need to

431
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: take a good look at the man who said he

432
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: found this body. Now, Joe, the word is that authorities

433
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: determined she was raped and then bludgeoned to death, raped

434
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 1: and bludgeoned to death and then dumped on the side

435
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: of the road. Would they taking a look at this?

436
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: We know that she was left in a snowpack. Was

437
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: she beaten, raped and killed someplace else and then dumped

438
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: there on the side of the road or did it

439
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 1: all take place right there.

440
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 2: My suspicion is it would have been someplace else and

441
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 2: potentially in a vehicle, and this did happen. Do you

442
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 2: remember back you know, you had mentioned the hippie the

443
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 2: hippie years and people hitchhiked everywhere. Remember in the late seventies,

444
00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 2: there was like that big push to get people to

445
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 2: prevent people from hitch hiking, and I think it was

446
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: already on the books, you know, where they were saying

447
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 2: I've heard before that and I can't swear this that

448
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: hitch hiking is illegal, Okay, but there had been so

449
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 2: many cases over the years where people were being snatched.

450
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 2: You had, you infamously, you had a number of serial

451
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 2: killers that preyed upon hitchhikers. And so I'm wondering, you know,

452
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 2: just perhaps if if this was an event where she

453
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: was hitch hiking and happened to come across an individual

454
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: that lured her into the car and said, yeah, well,

455
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's cold out here. What are you

456
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: doing walking out here, young seventeen year old girl? And

457
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 2: she's said, well, I'm just trying to get to my

458
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: sister's house. And she's on foot. Well, come on in

459
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 2: my car, is you know, is warm and you know dry,

460
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: and I'll take you right up the road here, you know,

461
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 2: to your sister's place in Banning. Come on, and the

462
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 2: next thing, you know, the individuals, you know, off off

463
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 2: the road and in some location where they couldn't be seen.

464
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 2: She's seventeen years old, beautiful, absolutely beautiful young lady. By

465
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 2: the way, I was looking at the image of her,

466
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: and he begins to beat her and rape her. Now

467
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: Here's here's the thing. That vehicle at that point in time.

468
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,959
Speaker 2: To me, at least if we go with the supposition

469
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: that she was dumped, that vehicle is a rolling crime scene.

470
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 2: There is going to be all manner of evidence, even

471
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 2: by nineteen seventy nine standards. You're going to see blood

472
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 2: pattern evidence that's contained in that vehicle. Even if he

473
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,360
Speaker 2: is let's just say the individuals using his bare hands

474
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 2: to beat her, you know, just with a closed fist,

475
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: or maybe stomping on her inside of the vehicle, kicking

476
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: her in the head, that sort of thing. You're going

477
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,719
Speaker 2: to have blood deposition in that car. And you remember

478
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 2: back in nineteen seventy nine, people drove a lot of

479
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 2: boats back then, Remember you know, big land yachts. You know,

480
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 2: it was nothing to see somebody cruising down the road

481
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 2: in a full size LTD. I don't know why they

482
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 2: closed cars limited by Ford, because they weren't limited. They

483
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 2: were everywhere, and you could have them beating somebody to

484
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 2: death in a vehicle like that. Perhaps it had cloth

485
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 2: interior that would hold on to any kind of residual

486
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: trace evidence that's there, and it could be specifically tied

487
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 2: back to Esther at that point in time, you know,

488
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: any kind of blood deposition that was left behind in

489
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: the car. But here's you know, here's the thing. It

490
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: wasn't what was inside of this of this unknown vehicle

491
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 2: that led to a conclusion. In Esther's case, it was

492
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 2: horribly what was contained within her that led to the resolution.

493
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: So you got this argumentative person, Dave, that you know,

494
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: contacts of his own volition, free will, reaches out to

495
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: substation with the Sheriff's department, reaches out to them, makes

496
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: contact with them, gets kky with him, and they don't

497
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 2: know who he is. They finally track him down, Dave.

498
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 2: Didn't they didn't They bring him in at some point

499
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: in time for questioning.

500
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned it a little while ago about

501
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: how they had to track him down. And then once

502
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: they started getting him situated, you know, they pulled the

503
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: old Look, you're the guy who found her. We need

504
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: to eliminate you as a suspect so we can move

505
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: on with this investigation. So would you, you know, just

506
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: sit for the polygraph, knock it out, tell us your

507
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: found her, and then we'll move on. They obviously were

508
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: thinking something, or at least they had no other places

509
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: to go. I'm guessing. Look, when you find a body

510
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: in the middle of US an area where there ought

511
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: not be one, well, that's probably the wrong thing to say,

512
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean. Obviously, just she wasn't

513
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: hit by another car. You know, she was raped, murdered,

514
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: and this guy found her. So I imagine they just told him,

515
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 1: come on in and take the polygraph and we'll eliminate

516
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: you so we can catch the real killer. And he

517
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: sits down for the polygraph, and believe it or not,

518
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: passes the polygraph. I say believe it or not because

519
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: at this point, y'all know where we're headed with this.

520
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: But he beats the polygraph. In nineteen seventy nine, right

521
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: after this murder happens, the one suspect they have, the

522
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: one person that actually put himself in the location of

523
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: Ester Gonzale's dead body, Randy Williamson, passes the polygraph and

524
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: that's pretty much it. Joe he leaves.

525
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, ain't that something you think about? Okay, let's think

526
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 2: I want to go back to the scene. I'm very

527
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: curious about this because I've got friends at work. I

528
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 2: had friends that worked for the Minnesota State Police for

529
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 2: a while. I was on a couple of task force

530
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: with them DJ task Force, and I was fascinated listening

531
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: to them talking about doing death investigation in the dead

532
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 2: of winter in Minnesota. It just always fascinated me for

533
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: some you know, being an old Southern guy, you know,

534
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: and how they would lift footprints and snow was fascinating

535
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: to me.

536
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: You know, they use this snow.

537
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, they can use this kind of it's kind of

538
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: a paraffin wax medium that they use that they can

539
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 2: apply and that they can lift it. And I'm thinking, well, Okay,

540
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: they find her in a snow bank, I wonder, I

541
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: wonder if there was anything adjacent to her body out

542
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 2: there from an evidentiary standpoint that they missed, or was

543
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: she so tiny that the individual could have stood adjacent

544
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: to the snow bank and just kind of with two

545
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: arms lifted her and thrown her into that area from

546
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: the shoulder of the road and not have left a

547
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: trace of themselves. Didn't drive through the snow, so you're

548
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: not going to have tire tread marks in the snow

549
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: or in the mud, because most of the time, even

550
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 2: in California, if you've got snow, you've gotten mud adjacent

551
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: to it. It's going to be there. I wonder if

552
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 2: they missed anything relative to that there, because if this

553
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: guy pulls up in his car at the station, first off,

554
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: you ain't just getting on the polygraph homes. We're gonna

555
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: take a let car as well. And even if I

556
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: don't go into the car, I'm gonna have one of

557
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: my buddies go out there with a gigantic flashlight and

558
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,719
Speaker 2: look in the window to see if there's anything inside

559
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: of it. I want to look at your tires. I

560
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: want to take pictures of them, you know, anything relative

561
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: to that. I wonder if that's something that was perhaps

562
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: missed at that point in time that could have been

563
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: tied back to this guy that showed up, you know,

564
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: for the polygraph. But you know, look once once he

565
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: passes the polygraph, at that point in time, it seems

566
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: as though that he's essentially off the list. But when

567
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: they did esther's examination post mortem examination, which I've said

568
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 2: before and I will say here again so that all

569
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: of our friends understand. Anytime I have a dead female

570
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: and she is a homicide victim, you're going to get

571
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: a rape kit. It's going to happen. You know that

572
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: it's just because I would rather have the pathologists that

573
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 2: I work with over the years, I have yet to

574
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: meet one that would work a female homicide and not

575
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: do a rape kit. It's just even in the most

576
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 2: obvious circumstances that you know, I've had rape kits done

577
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 2: on people that were killed and dry by shootings. They're

578
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 2: going to do a rape kit, which is going to

579
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: be vaginal, rectal, and oral swabs. They're going to do

580
00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: hair pluckings, hair combings, because if you when a rape kit,

581
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 2: post mortem rate kit that is done. People don't realize this.

582
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: But and I don't want to be too grotesque here,

583
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 2: but but when there is when you have when you

584
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 2: have sexual organs that are immediately in contact with one another,

585
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 2: there can be transference of pubic hair. Pubicare is. Each

586
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 2: individual's pubic hair is unique to them, obviously, So you

587
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 2: do pubic hair combings and you do them into a

588
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:38,439
Speaker 2: into a catch catch paper that's there, and you comb

589
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 2: these hairs out, and any loose hairs that are there,

590
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: you try to determine is this hair shed from the

591
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 2: victim or is it shed from the perpetrator, because pubic

592
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: hair will get commingled with one another, because you know

593
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: it's naturally you know, got a curl to it, it'll

594
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: it'll kind of attach itself to other hairs, and it

595
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 2: can easily when you use these. It's literally a fine

596
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 2: tooth comb day that she used. It looks like something

597
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 2: you would do with lice, and that's contained in the

598
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,439
Speaker 2: rape kit, and so you would have that as well.

599
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 2: But what they did determine is that she had sperm

600
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 2: deposition within her that they collected as a result of

601
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 2: the swaps. And from nineteen seventy nine they held on

602
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: they held on to every bit of this data. So

603
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 2: I mean, good on them, because this is a horrific

604
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 2: crime from seven. You know, she's seventeen years old. Back

605
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy nine, she'll.

606
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: Say, Joe, look when they had Randy Williamson, he was

607
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 1: the only suspect they had, and after his polygraph, they

608
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: don't have a suspect. And they did investigate. I mean,

609
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: it wasn't like they just gave up. They just there

610
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,959
Speaker 1: was no other place to go. And like so many

611
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: cases that they're not solved quickly, other cases replaced them

612
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: and have to be done with. And it didn't just

613
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: lay there with nothing they took extra special care with

614
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: the evidence. They actually stored it properly. They made sure

615
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 1: that they did bring this case out. It didn't sit

616
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,479
Speaker 1: and collect dust. Whenever they had the chance to try

617
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: to work it, when they had new information or new

618
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: testing or something, they actually kept going back to it

619
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: to see if they could find who did this. And

620
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 1: over a period of years it had been looked at

621
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: several times. It just took the right amount of time,

622
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: with the right person, the right people looking into this

623
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: investigation to actually determine what to do. And granted it

624
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: took many, many years, Joe, but as you mentioned at

625
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: the beginning, our friends at AUTHORM have really developed a

626
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: reputation for solving the unsolvable.

627
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 2: Yes, they have, and it's not simply about identifying unidentified bodies,

628
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 2: which by the way, they're all about out I mean

629
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 2: they you know, David has consistently stated that his his

630
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 2: his dream, I think, is to whittle down the nameless list.

631
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: But you know, they're they're called in on a variety

632
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 2: of other cases, including homicides, unsolved homicides that goes without

633
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 2: saying saying and this this is to their credit, and

634
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,479
Speaker 2: it's because of the fact that they ran. I'm sure

635
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: that over the years they ran that sample through, you know,

636
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: through the database nationally to see if they would ever

637
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 2: get a hit on anybody that was out there that

638
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 2: may have entered into the system later on. I've always

639
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 2: been of the opinion that once a sexual predator starts,

640
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 2: they're not going to stop, because it's like this little

641
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 2: burning fire within them, and this is the only way

642
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 2: you know, through and domination and hatred toward women. I

643
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 2: think specifically, just I mean, can you imagine just I mean,

644
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: I want people to understand what an animalistic thing this

645
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 2: is to do to some innocent seventeen year old girl

646
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 2: walking along the road and you have no prior contact

647
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: with her, and you drag her into your vehicle and

648
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 2: you beat her until she is dead after you've raped her.

649
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: What type of person you know, would do this sort

650
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: of thing. And it's always been fascinating to me that

651
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: you don't get other hits, you know, when you're looking

652
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 2: at CODIS, in the CODIS system that this person quits. Now,

653
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people that say, for instance, if

654
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 2: you have like this kind of sexual sadist predator type

655
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 2: of person that's out there, they might age out that

656
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: was stated, I think relative to I think I heard

657
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 2: my friend Paul Hols make that comment about the Golden

658
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: State perpetrator, where they felt as though that he had

659
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: gotten to a point in life where he was too

660
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 2: old to perform sexually any longer, and so he would

661
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 2: drop off to face the map. You'd have these events

662
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 2: that would either be incomplete or he just wouldn't pursue

663
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,839
Speaker 2: them any You just don't have will to do it

664
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 2: because of age. But you never know what kind of

665
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 2: crooked path someone someone's life is going to go down

666
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 2: after they've intersected with an innocent like yesterday.

667
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 1: You know, Joe, as we were looking over this case,

668
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: and I kept thinking about the detectives who there was

669
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: an emotional attachment to this case that they had to

670
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,720
Speaker 1: find a solution. And I really go back to seventeen

671
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: years old in nineteen seventy nine. She's just walking from

672
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: her mom and dad's to her sisters, and this most

673
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: heinous thing has been done to her, beaten to death,

674
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,439
Speaker 1: raped and dumped like trash on the side of the road.

675
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: They never gave up. She was always there on their

676
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: mind in their files, and over the years of trying

677
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: to find. You know, the homicide team continue to investigate.

678
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 1: They didn't just let us sit there. I think that's

679
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 1: to their credit because I think a lot of times

680
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: we tend to look at things and think, well, they

681
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: haven't solved it. They must not even be thinking about

682
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,760
Speaker 1: it anymore. And all I can think is the family.

683
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: You know, when twenty twenty three rolls around and detectives

684
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 1: bring this case out again and they're looking at it, going,

685
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: here's some evidence. We've got this lab in Texas, let's

686
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: see what they can do. Let's send this to them

687
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: and see what they can come up with. And Joe,

688
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,919
Speaker 1: it boggles my mind because it's not just science. There's

689
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: a lot of detective work going on here. They actually

690
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,760
Speaker 1: at AUTHRAM. Yes, they take the genetic at the DNA,

691
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: but to break down a family tree where a lot

692
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: of the branches are broken, it's a difficult task. And

693
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: all they've got to do is find one relative somewhere

694
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: down the line that has either been arrested and said

695
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: had their DNA or you know, have they've sent it

696
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: up to twenty three and meters or whatever you know site,

697
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 1: It's like it's so arbitrary.

698
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you would think that it is, but there's a

699
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 2: there's a geometry to it that's that's kind of beautiful

700
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 2: when you think about it mathematically, you know, and U

701
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 2: when when you talk to David and Kristen at Athram,

702
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 2: their minds are so much bigger than mine could ever

703
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 2: ever be. I would love to have them on bodybags

704
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,439
Speaker 2: with some time to talk about what the Yeah, yeah,

705
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: I really would. They're rock stars. I mean, they're.

706
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely trust me. All I could think of is Joe,

707
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: I really don't have the vocabulary for this conversation.

708
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, you met them at Crome Coon, I remember. But

709
00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 2: they're just they're salt of the earth people. And you

710
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: know the thing about it is they've just got a

711
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: con tender heart and this is extended I think in

712
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: what they've done in this case. You know, you've got

713
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: this collection of the cold case investigators out in California

714
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 2: that never let Esther's case go away. They you've got

715
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 2: the efforts of Authram where they're working day and night,

716
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: you know, to help people that approach them, you know,

717
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 2: that come to them. And then you know what what

718
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 2: was developed from Esther's case at that autopsy so many

719
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 2: years ago, because they took the time to do the

720
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 2: examination and to do all of the collections. It actually

721
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 2: wound up marrying up at another autopsy, Dave. It was

722
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 2: actually the autopsy of the guy that had called it

723
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 2: in Dave for whatever reason. And I still don't have

724
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 2: an understanding of this. And I really wonder, if you know,

725
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 2: going back to what you said, that the detectives never

726
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 2: let this rest. I wonder if they've been watching this

727
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 2: guy from Afar for all of these years and that

728
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 2: all of a sudden they find out that he has died.

729
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 2: Did they request an autopsy? Did something happen to this

730
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 2: man that initiated the autopsy? What was it? Did the

731
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 2: detectives say, oh, you know, did they do? I use

732
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: Google alerts a lot, you know, where I'll getting notified

733
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: if something that I'm looking for. Did they put him

734
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: into a Google alert?

735
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: You know?

736
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 2: The obituary of or you know that he had suddenly

737
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,919
Speaker 2: died because he had previously lived in California. I'm talking

738
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 2: about Williams and then he had moved to Florida. And

739
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: when he died, there was an autopsy that was porn

740
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 2: day and they actually drew blood at that autopsy, and

741
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 2: that's where the work of Authorm begins because they could

742
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 2: take that biological sample all the way back from nineteen

743
00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 2: seventy nine and compare it to that blood draw that

744
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 2: they did at autopsy, which I think and correct me

745
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong. I think it was in twenty fourteen, Yeah,

746
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: when he passed on, and they've got those two samples.

747
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 2: The fact that that rape kit survived all those years

748
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 2: is amazing to me. As I've stated and Nancy Grace

749
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 2: has stated on multiple occasions, you walk into a police

750
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 2: evidence room and it is not this pristine, beautiful, clean

751
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: place that you think that it might be. So I

752
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 2: wonder if this sample had been stored somewhere else and

753
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: it was just you know, it was just helld there

754
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 2: all these many years where they could go back and

755
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 2: begin to sample it and compare what they had. But

756
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 2: you know, you get this DNA rich sample from Williams

757
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 2: at autopsy, the blood sample, and suddenly a picture begins

758
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 2: to appear.

759
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: But it took.

760
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,720
Speaker 2: It took now ten years later, after he has already

761
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: gone and gone on to whatever reward he wound up with,

762
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 2: Authorm was able to get a match. They were able

763
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 2: to get a match and bring a conclusion to this case,

764
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 2: all these many years later, Dave, I.

765
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: Will tell you something, Joe. I did investigate Randy Williamson.

766
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,919
Speaker 1: I looked back at his life before nineteen seventy nine

767
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: and after, and I found some pictures of him that

768
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: were all They were mugshots, and one was not that

769
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: long before he passed away. However, for whatever reason, the

770
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: background information on this man is pretty much nonexistent. Again,

771
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: the photo I saw, it's a mug shot of Randy Williamson,

772
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: and he looks to be, you know, in his forties

773
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: at the time. But he died in twenty fourteen. They

774
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: did an autopsy, They did keep his blood, They did

775
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: actually keep enough that they could. When this happened, they

776
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: were able to pull out the evidence say here it is,

777
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: here is our dial suspect who passed the polygraph, and

778
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 1: here he is. Which I was shocked, Joe, that polygraph

779
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: testing in nineteen seventy nine was enough to totally eliminate somebody.

780
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you, I don't see the point

781
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: in taking a polygraph test for any reason unless it

782
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: can be brought into court, and it's not going to

783
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: be brought into court, So I wouldn't take it. And

784
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: here's the reason why he was guilty, and they let

785
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: him walk away because he passed that.

786
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 2: I think that I think that polygraph can be used

787
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 2: as a grand tool of evaluation, but police have to

788
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 2: be very very careful with it, you know, when you

789
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 2: begin to and of course this is not going to

790
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 2: apply in this particular case because there's no one to

791
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 2: charge and no one to try and you know, put

792
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,399
Speaker 2: on trial and find either you know, guilt or not

793
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 2: not guilty or not guilty. However, in any other case

794
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: where you're using polygraph, they have to be very careful

795
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 2: how they source information, how they utilize it an investigation,

796
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 2: because you know, you can if it's non admissible, and

797
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 2: when you begin to kind of create this narrative relative

798
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 2: the investigative narrative, you have to try to understand and

799
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 2: explain to the court, you know, how you came about

800
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 2: this information. So they do take due care with it.

801
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 2: But one thing that doesn't lie, Dave is DNA, and

802
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 2: that's proved out from our friends at AUTHORM and listen,

803
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 2: AUTHORAM is not a governmental agency. It doesn't receive our

804
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 2: tax dollars on any level. They are completely and totally

805
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 2: dependent upon outside help. We're in the holiday season right now,

806
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 2: and any kind of donation you make to them is

807
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 2: we're coming to the end of the year, is tax deductible.

808
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 2: You can go to their website, go to DNA solves

809
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 2: dot com. And particularly for many people that are armchair

810
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 2: detectives that you think that you want to help, let

811
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 2: me tell you what this is one of the grandest

812
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 2: ways you can help. And in any investigation. You can

813
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 2: go through their list of cases, choose a case and

814
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,439
Speaker 2: even if it's a dollar, you put a dollar toward

815
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: that case, and they have to hit a seven thousand

816
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 2: dollars barrier in order they have to break through that

817
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: barrier in order to start this case. This is high

818
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 2: end technology that they're using, and they can move forward

819
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 2: with that case once they hit seven thousand dollars. And

820
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 2: just think all those empty chairs at Thanksgiving, at Christmas

821
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 2: dinner all around the country that people are missing from.

822
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 2: You don't know where they are, whatever happened to them.

823
00:48:53,480 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 2: Any dollar that you could donate to them might be

824
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: that thing that turns a case around, that gives a

825
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: family resolution. As you know, I never believe in saying

826
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 2: closure because these families never have closure, but it gives

827
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 2: them answers. It gives them answers. I'm going to be

828
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 2: donating coming up here to the end of the year

829
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: to dnasolives dot com, and I'm going to do it

830
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:24,959
Speaker 2: proudly because I know out there there are so many

831
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 2: cases that I look. I've stood over skeletal remains over

832
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 2: the course of my career and I had no answers.

833
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 2: If there's something that I can do to help just

834
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 2: one case, I'm going to do it. I urge everybody

835
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 2: to give and give freely. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

836
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 2: this is Bodybacks