1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Let's turn now two events in the Middle East. It's 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: been one month since the Hamas attack on Israel, in 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: which one four hundred people were killed. Israeli troops continue 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: to advance within the northern part of Gaza, where the 5 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Health Ministry that's controlled by Hamas says the death toll 6 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: has now passed ten thousand. Israeli military spokesperson Peter Lerner 7 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: joins us now for more. Good morning to you, Peter, 8 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. How close are you? 9 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: How advanced is your operation in the area around Gaza City. 10 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 2: We are, and we have over the last two days 11 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 2: completed encirclement of Gaza City and are moving closer and 12 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 2: closer to the center. The idea of the operation of 13 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: the war is to dismantle and destroy Hamas as a 14 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 2: governing authority and as a terrorist entity that can launch 15 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 2: attacks against Israel. Of course, we understand that that role, 16 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 2: that goal is a very expensive goal and it will 17 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: take time, and so the operation itself, the war itself, 18 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: is an open ended wars. We don't have any hour 19 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,639 Speaker 2: glass counting the moment, the minutes until we end. 20 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 3: Okay, what do you think that Gaza, and particularly northern 21 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,839 Speaker 3: Gaza will look like once that operation is over. 22 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: Our role is to destroy Hamas, so it will look 23 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: without Hamas. That is the goal, that's the idea. Indeed, 24 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: the images of warfare, and specifically urban warfare, are going 25 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 2: to be always images of devastation. But there really is 26 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 2: no other option for Israel. And Hamas have said clearly 27 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 2: that they they see the civilian victims of Gaza as 28 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 2: a legitimate tool in their path to liberation. They've said 29 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: clearly several times that the tunnels that they built are 30 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: for their offensive activities, not for the defense of the people. 31 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: And they've said also that if given the chance, they 32 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 2: will do seventh of October again and again and again. 33 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: So our option, the only option Israel has, is to 34 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: make sure that Hamas never hope the power to control 35 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: the Gaza strip as a staging ground against Israel. 36 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: Ever, again, you've talked about the tunnels under Gaza. That 37 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,839 Speaker 1: makes your operation more complex. What weaponry will you use 38 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: to clear out those tunnels? 39 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: Well, obviously I can't elaborate on specific tools or methods 40 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 2: and techniques. Of course, the idea of has over the 41 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,679 Speaker 2: last I would say extensively over the last ten years, 42 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: understanding the nature of tunnel warfare and how our enemies 43 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: have decided to build these huge labyrinths of tunnels underneath 44 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 2: the civilian population in Gaza have developed tools, weapons, mechanisms 45 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: and techniques in order to confront those enemies. And we 46 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: have seen combat in the last few days in tunnels, 47 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: around tunnels, at the entrance to access points of tunnels, 48 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: wherever they are, whether it's in the within hospitals, or 49 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: in playgrounds or in different civilian arenas like mosques and 50 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: so on. So we are engaging, we are moving forward, 51 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: we're pursuing the enemy, and we're doing it with all 52 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 2: of the force and tools that we have. 53 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 3: How MASS leaders have indicated that that is not the case. 54 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 3: They've said that you know that the hospitals and so 55 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 3: on could be inspected by un inspectors for example. How 56 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 3: much credibility can there be around that response from har Mass? 57 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: How much credibility can you give to an organization that 58 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: butcher's babies in their bedrooms? I wouldn't trust for a word? 59 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: They say, what happens next in your operation? Your focus 60 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: now on Gaza City? Is there an expanded plan to 61 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: what happens to the rest of the territory? 62 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: Gaza City is the hub of Hamas's operations. That is 63 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: the center of government. I would say it's a center 64 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 2: of gravity. So obviously that is a very, very substantial 65 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: focus point of our activities. We are trying to operate 66 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: in a way that differentiates distinguishes between the civilian population, 67 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: and so for three weeks now we've been calling on 68 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: civilian population to evacuate the centers of the northern areas 69 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 2: specifically and also Gaza City. We have seen a huge 70 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 2: mobilization of people listening to us, and that's despite the 71 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: attempts that Hamas have done in order to intimidate, prevent, 72 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: and even establish physical barriers preventing movement of people to 73 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: the south. This is the I would say, this is 74 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: a huge challenge, but we are determined that Hamas will 75 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: not be able to govern Gaza. Gaza after this war 76 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: ends will be a safer place where Israelis and Palestinians alike. 77 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 3: But legitimacy is an issue for Israel. Tens of troops 78 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 3: on the Israeli side have been killed in the military fighting. 79 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 3: According to Hamas run Gaza, ten thousand Palestinians killed. The 80 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 3: un chief Antoni Gutaras has warned that Gaza is becoming 81 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 3: a quote graveyard for children. How do your troops hill 82 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 3: about the about that sort of accusation, that kind of language. 83 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 3: Legitimacy is an issue. 84 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: So any decent human being needs to be on the 85 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: side of Israel today. We look at the images that 86 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 2: are heartbreaking coming out of Gaza, but we have to 87 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 2: remember why we are at war. Israel did not intend 88 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 2: on going to war. We had no plans. I would 89 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: go so much to say that the Ideaf made a 90 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 2: huge mistake and miscalculated Hamas's intentions, so much so that 91 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: they came in and butchered oney four hundred people and 92 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: abducted over two hundred and forty people that they're still holding. 93 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 2: The youngest of those is ten months old. And so 94 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: while we expect, accept, and also listen to the United 95 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: Nations our understandings, United Nations need to be part of 96 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: the solution, not part of the problem. Everybody needs to 97 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: very clearly say that Hamas has to go and the 98 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: actions and I would say strategies need to fall in 99 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: line with that. With that goal that Hamas is rid 100 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 2: from the realm of existence and no longer has the 101 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: powers of government. We have to understand what they did 102 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: with these powers. They were able to build not only 103 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 2: the tunnel infrastructure, but they built an effective terrorist army, 104 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: the terrorist army that was well equipped, well trained, and 105 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: well instructed to burst and strategically attack Israel. What did 106 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 2: they expect would happen in the aftermath of this massacre? 107 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 3: Has the United Nations not been clear about her mass 108 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 3: about condemnation for her mass. 109 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: When I looked at the United Nations announcement yesterday, they 110 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: didn't even mention Hamas. So they are by not mentioning 111 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 2: ningham I would say they're giving them a free pass. 112 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 2: They're exempting them from any accountability or responsibility for the 113 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,679 Speaker 2: people of Gaza. Hamas is the governing authority of Gaza. 114 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: The primary interest of any government is to take care 115 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: of its people, of its citizens. But what if I 116 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 2: mus have done. They have kept no regard for civilian life. 117 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: So it is halassious failure faith leadership that has brought 118 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: this tragedy on the people of Gaza. We have no 119 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 2: we really have no alternative. We can't accept the seventh 120 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: of October as a reality. And what we're doing now 121 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: is making sure that October seventh never happens again. 122 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: If you say that it was a mistake by the 123 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: IDF to underestimate Hamas before this, is there a risk 124 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: of you over correcting in your response to this. 125 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: That's a very good question. I've not been asked something 126 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: like that. Indeed, the situation on the ground requires a 127 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: paradigm change. It requires a new reality for Israelis and 128 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: Palestinians alike, one where both sides of the border live 129 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 2: without the risk of terrorism or death. And indeed, the reality, 130 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: as I've said, it needs to change, and it needs 131 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: to change now. It could be over if Hamas decided 132 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: to lay down its arms and wave a white flag. 133 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: But we know that this terrorist organization that won't do that, 134 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: So there is really no alternative for us to pursue forward. 135 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 2: We'll do it in accordance to the laws of our conflict, 136 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 2: based on the principles of distinction, based on the principles 137 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: of military necessity and proportionality. In those two realms of operations. 138 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: It will be a long, hard war. It is a tragedy, 139 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: a tragedy nevertheless, brought on us by this terrorist organization, 140 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 2: a terrorist government of Hamas. 141 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 3: Peter, how do you get the hostages out from Gaza. 142 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 3: What priority are those people given? 143 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: It is anational priority. The hostages, as I said, ten 144 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: months old now Baby Fear was nine months old when 145 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: he was abducted and he's now ten months old. Who 146 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: abducts ten months old baby? So that the hostage issues 147 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: is a national priority. We're utilizing all of the tools 148 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 2: in our hands in order to try and locate, identify 149 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 2: and conduct operations as we did a week and a 150 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 2: half ago with Obie mcgiddish who was abducted and we 151 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: rescued her. Of course, this is a huge challenge, and 152 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 2: I would say primarily it's Hamasa's responsibility for their well being, 153 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 2: but also we demanded that the International Committee of the 154 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 2: Red Cross have access to the hostages, assess their situation. 155 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 2: They have to be brought home, they have to be 156 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: brought home now, and you know that would also alleviate 157 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: some of the situation. We understand that. 158 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: You've talked I just appease it. We're running out of time, 159 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: but you've talked about this being an open ended operation 160 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: for the IDF. Are you prepared for more deaths on 161 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: your side? Is Israel prepared for death toll of israelis 162 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: to rise? In this operation. 163 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 2: So it all began with the massacre of Israeli civilians. 164 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 2: The israel Defense Force is the first line of defense 165 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 2: of the Israeli people, and we have now around thirty 166 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 2: deaths in our forces since the ground operations commenced. It 167 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 2: is a reality of warfare, but again that is the charge, 168 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: that is the responsibility of the defense forces. Israeli society 169 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 2: has come I would say, as a generalization, it has 170 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 2: come together around this event in a way which was 171 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: if you had asked me a week and five weeks ago, 172 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: it wouldn't have possible because of internal politics. But today 173 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 2: Israelis are determined to safeguard their country and their people 174 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: and their existence. 175 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: Okay, Peter Lerner is a really military spokesperson. Thank you 176 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: very much for joining us on the program.