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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. Today's Saturday. We're going to be

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Speaker 1: giving you part two of three in the Burning Mountains

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Speaker 1: of Io. This originally published two thirteen, twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: Let's dive right.

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Speaker 2: In Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb, and.

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Speaker 3: I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two

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Speaker 3: in our series on Jupiter's innermost moon, Io, the most

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Speaker 3: volcanic body in our Solar system, and, as I argued

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Speaker 3: in the last episode, one of the most fascinating and

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Speaker 3: dramatic places we know of beyond Earth. So if you

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Speaker 3: haven't heard part one, we would recommend going back to

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Speaker 3: listen to that one first. But for a brief recap

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Speaker 3: of what we talked about last time. We started off

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Speaker 3: talking about how I got interested in revisiting Io because

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Speaker 3: we did do a series of episodes on Jupiter's moons

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Speaker 3: at large several years back, but I wanted to come

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Speaker 3: back and do a closer pass on Io, in particular

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Speaker 3: because I got visually obsessed with some images produced by

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Speaker 3: the NASA Juno mission in the past year or so.

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Speaker 3: I guess it's actually a little bit over a year,

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Speaker 3: because some of the data that we were looking at

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Speaker 3: was collected in late twenty twenty three. But we talked

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Speaker 3: about several of these images in detail about the strangely

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Speaker 3: polychrome surface of the Moon and its truly fascinating surface features,

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Speaker 3: including gigantic blade like mountains, vast sulfurous plains, hundreds of

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Speaker 3: erupting volcanoes, enormous hellish lava lakes rippling with lava waves,

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Speaker 3: and lava flows stretching hundreds of kilometers, all all situated

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Speaker 3: within a land that is at once burning hot and

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Speaker 3: freezing cold. So it is, as Bart Simpson might say

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Speaker 3: of contrasts, but also just a place of enormous physical

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Speaker 3: and sort of geological drama. We also talked a little

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Speaker 3: bit about the history of the exploration of Io, at

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Speaker 3: least going back to Carl Sagan's account of the discoveries

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Speaker 3: made by the Voyager probe in.

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Speaker 4: Nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 3: Around then, we also talked about the extremely thin sulfur

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Speaker 3: dioxide atmosphere of Io, which is generated initially by venting

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Speaker 3: from the Moon's volcanoes, and subsequently by the cyclical freezing

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Speaker 3: and sublimation of sulfur dioxide frost on the surface, freezing

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Speaker 3: when the moon passes into Jupiter's shadow, then transitioning into

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Speaker 3: gas again once back in the sunlight. We also talked

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Speaker 3: a good bit about the Greek myth of the Moon's namesake,

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Speaker 3: sort of the themes of the Io story, especially in Ovid's

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Speaker 3: telling and other versions of the story, and the way

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Speaker 3: the tale was said in ancient times to interlock with

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Speaker 3: Egyptian religious figures such as the GUIs Isis Shepherd of

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Speaker 3: the dead, and the Sacred Mother of Pharaoh's And we

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Speaker 3: are back today to talk once again about Io.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 4: So there's something we.

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Speaker 3: Didn't really talk about at all last time, and that

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Speaker 3: was the use of io as a setting or plot

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Speaker 3: device in science fiction, which, you know, despite all of

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Speaker 3: its at least to me, really apparent aesthetic virtues, as

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Speaker 3: a setting for a story, it doesn't really seem to

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Speaker 3: be a favorite place within our Solar system for sci

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Speaker 3: fi writers. Or maybe I'm wrong about that, maybe it's

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Speaker 3: just not in a lot of stories I've read, But

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Speaker 3: I was having trouble thinking of many examples in which

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Speaker 3: it featured in stories I knew. I think it showed

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Speaker 3: up at some point briefly in the Expanse, and I

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Speaker 3: can't really think of many other examples.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, even in the Expanse. And I'm a little foggy

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Speaker 1: on where it shows up or doesn't show up, if

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Speaker 1: it's in the novels by James S. A. Corey, or

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Speaker 1: if it's in the TV adaptation. I've only read the

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Speaker 1: first book in the series, Leviathan Wakes, but I watched

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Speaker 1: the entire run of the show. But even then, I

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Speaker 1: think maybe it only partially factored in there. And I

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Speaker 1: think one of the possibilities here is that Io is

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Speaker 1: a moon that we know to be rather extreme and hostile,

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Speaker 1: and therefore even our sci fi visions and fantasies tend

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Speaker 1: to give it a little safe distance.

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Speaker 3: You know, it doesn't seem like a top candidate for colonization.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, in well, I don't want to spoil too

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Speaker 5: much of the plot if people aren't familiar with the Expanse,

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Speaker 5: but I do remember it pops up as the location

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Speaker 5: of a quite cursed laboratory.

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Speaker 1: Yes, they're working on a particular molecule, Yes, yes, Now

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Speaker 1: one place you do see Io pop up as a

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Speaker 1: setting is the nineteen eighty one gritty sci fi western Outland.

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Speaker 1: This one starred Sean Connery and Peter Boyle has some

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Speaker 1: other fairly big names sprinkled throughout the cast as well.

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Speaker 1: Directed by Peter Hyams, and I guess they chose Iowa

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Speaker 1: as a setting here because it would be such a

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Speaker 1: horrible place to work. It's the horrible working conditions and

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of like labor dispute in this particular

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Speaker 1: sci fi vision, you know, eighty one that's not too

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Speaker 1: long after Ridley Scott's Alien, and it's a film that

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Speaker 1: you could almost assume to be in the same universe,

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Speaker 1: you know. It's that sort of very gritty, essentially near

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Speaker 1: future vision of science fiction that is very much focused

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Speaker 1: on like the working man in space.

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Speaker 3: I have meant to see this for years and never have.

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Speaker 3: It's it's intrigued me ever since my days of like

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Speaker 3: in high school, flipping through you know, stacks of DVDs

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Speaker 3: at the used bookstore in town, because it really pops

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Speaker 3: because it's Sean Connery holding a shotgun, dressed like a cop,

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Speaker 3: except he's in space. So strange vibes from the get go.

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Speaker 3: But I've read that you didn't already say this. I've

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Speaker 3: read that this one is supposed to be like a

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Speaker 3: Western but in space.

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Speaker 1: Correct. Yeah, and I saw it many many years ago,

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Speaker 1: but I'm a little foggy on the details. But it

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Speaker 1: is gritty. It is very much a Western in space.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it concerns explosive decompression, people's heads exploding

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Speaker 1: inside of suits, and yeah, terrible labor conditions. Now, one

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Speaker 1: thing about it that I wasn't familiar with until very

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Speaker 1: recently is there was a comic book adaptation of it

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Speaker 1: for Heavy Metal, I believe by comics legend Jim Starnco,

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Speaker 1: and I include a few stills from it here for you, Joe.

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Speaker 1: I've seen people talk about this online almost in terms

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Speaker 1: of like a lost classic, Like it's apparently hard to

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Speaker 1: get your hands on, but it's got some very impressive

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Speaker 1: line work and just some really beautiful imagery. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like I say that the film itself has a very

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Speaker 1: gritty air to it, and that flavor is still present

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Speaker 1: in the comic book apparently, but it also has this

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Speaker 1: like extra like wilder vibe going on.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's one of those comic book art styles

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Speaker 3: where even apparently static objects seem to radiate with energy.

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Speaker 3: It's just I don't know what you call that style,

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Speaker 3: but it's where everything looks dynamic, like the style of

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Speaker 3: drawing is of a reality in which everything is about

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Speaker 3: to explode.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who's

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Speaker 1: read the comic book. There was also an Alan Deine

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Speaker 1: Foster novelization, so it has that in common with Alien

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Speaker 1: and Aliens and Alien three as well. But as far

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Speaker 1: as the treatment of Io in the motion picture and

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Speaker 1: in the comic book, basically it's a hell world where

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Speaker 1: they just decided to put a mining colony of some

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Speaker 1: sort and then prioritize profits over human safety. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: it's the perfect setting for that. Now I had to

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Speaker 1: hunt around a little bit more defined examples of Io

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Speaker 1: being used as a setting in other sci fi visions.

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Speaker 1: There's a nineteen ninety four mini series titled Escape from

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Speaker 1: Jupiter that concerns an escape from Io. Apparently it's an

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Speaker 1: Australian kids adventure and it's also has Steve Bisley in it,

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Speaker 1: who's in a number of I think he was in

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Speaker 1: at least one of the Mad Max Films.

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Speaker 3: Oh, okay, I don't recognize him by name, but yeah,

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Speaker 3: well maybe what if I saw him? Is this a

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Speaker 3: screenshot you've got from it with the bright colors?

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's one of the most nineteen nineties TV images

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Speaker 1: you could possibly look up online.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what what was the name?

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Speaker 3: It wasn't there like a Canadian kids sci fi show,

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Speaker 3: sort of a Star Trek for kids that was on

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Speaker 3: Nickelodeon in the nineties. It was like Space Cases or something.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's ringing a bell only.

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Speaker 3: The foggiest memory, but this is reminding me of that,

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Speaker 3: except I recall that had a darker look and this

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Speaker 3: is very pastel.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 1: There's also a twenty nineteen film titled Io. This was

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Speaker 1: apparently one that was put out on a on Netflix

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Speaker 1: and I haven't seen it, but it concerns refugees of

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Speaker 1: a destroyed Earth living on a space station near Io.

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Speaker 1: It stars Margaret Qualley of the Substance fame, Anthony Mackie,

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Speaker 1: and Danny Houston. Again, I haven't seen this one, but

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Speaker 1: apparently it's one it was released on Netflix. I have

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Speaker 1: to say, in the one still I found from it

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Speaker 1: or a production image promotionary image doesn't look very pizza

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Speaker 1: in the background.

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Speaker 4: No, looks this is very gray.

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Speaker 3: One of those shows where all the colors washed out

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Speaker 3: to be fair.

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Speaker 4: This is just a still.

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Speaker 3: I don't know the show, but marketing department is not

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Speaker 3: selling me on it with this color here.

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Speaker 1: All right. Now, In terms of written sci fi, there

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Speaker 1: are at least there at least two examples to call out.

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Speaker 1: There's The Mad Moon by Stanley gen g Weinbaum. This

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Speaker 1: is from nineteen thirty five, same individual who wrote a

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Speaker 1: Martian Odyssey, and it features two different alien species that

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Speaker 1: are supposed to be native to Io and and there's

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Speaker 1: a human colony. I haven't read that one, but I

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Speaker 1: did read a story he wrote titled The Planet of Doubt,

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Speaker 1: which I did a Monster Fact episode back in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three, So I'm going to make sure that I

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Speaker 1: re air that one either this week or the following

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Speaker 1: week so you don't have to go look it up again.

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Speaker 1: But it's a pretty fun one. This guy had a

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Speaker 1: real creative mind for dreaming up alien creatures that you know,

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Speaker 1: often reflected some of the stranger biological examples we have

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Speaker 1: on our own planet, but with you know, a nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirties or slightly later sci fi spin, but.

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Speaker 3: Now nineteen thirty so that's long before Voyager. I'm wondering

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Speaker 3: what did we actually know about IO at that point

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Speaker 3: to inform a vision of the biology that would arise there.

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Speaker 1: Well, that may maybe not enough to know that two

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Speaker 1: indigenous species of a human colony were not Maybe that likely.

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Speaker 1: We have some caveats on the whole life on IO thing. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll come back to it though. Another one that came

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Speaker 1: out though is The Very Pulse of the Machine by

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Speaker 1: Michael Swanwick. This is from nineteen ninety eight and it

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Speaker 1: concerns a possibly sentient iiO. It was adapted into an

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Speaker 1: episode of Love, Death and Robots on Netflix. Again, Netflix

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Speaker 1: Loves iiO, with the main character voiced by Mackenzie Davis,

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Speaker 1: who's been in things like Halden, Catch Fire and I

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Speaker 1: believe the more recent Blade Runner of film.

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Speaker 3: So when you say sentient IO, you're talking about the

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Speaker 3: moon itself, the planetary body, being a sentient organism or

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Speaker 3: sentient in some way.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I believe so. And I haven't read the story,

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Speaker 1: but I have seen this episode of Love, Death and Robots,

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Speaker 1: and I just the only thing I remember about it

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Speaker 1: is that it looked beautiful, and it concerned bad things

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Speaker 1: happening in space on the moon.

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Speaker 3: That sounds kind of like Silaris, but having not seen it,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to be overly broad about that.

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Speaker 1: But there's a fair amount of variety in Love, Death

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Speaker 1: and Robots. It's a really fun series. But there are

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Speaker 1: a number of episodes I think that you can describe

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Speaker 1: as bad things happen to people in space. So maybe

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Speaker 1: some of those bleed together in my memory.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to write some sci fi where only good

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Speaker 3: things happen to people in space.

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Speaker 1: There you go. That's what we need, you know, we

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Speaker 1: need a dash of a little more of the Star

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Speaker 1: Trek optimism these days.

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Speaker 3: Like page three hundred, people just wake up, Oh splendid

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Speaker 3: day once again, smooth sailing.

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Speaker 1: So that's what I've got.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: There may be some other fantastic examples or just even

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Speaker 1: marginally interesting examples of IO in science fiction, So if

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Speaker 1: you have any of those, do write in. We'd love

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Speaker 1: to share them with everyone else on a future Listener

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Speaker 1: mail episode.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, especially if it's something that takes the real physical

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Speaker 3: characteristics of IO seriously as either a source of creating

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Speaker 3: alien biology or something people on the planet, would have

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Speaker 3: on the moon, would have to live with Yeah, right

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Speaker 3: in contact at stuff to blow your mind dot com.

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Speaker 1: Yeah again. One of the challenges though, is we've been

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Speaker 1: discussing it and will continue to discuss It's just it's

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Speaker 1: a very extreme place. There are I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: say there are more interesting Jovian moons, but there are

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Speaker 1: other Jovian moons that are better candidates for things like

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Speaker 1: some sort of life form being present there potentially, or

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Speaker 1: there being some possibility for human colonization or outpost efforts.

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Speaker 5: And so forth.

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Speaker 3: Bridging to the next thing I wanted to talk about.

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Speaker 3: Even though Io, and as you said, we'll get into

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Speaker 3: this a bit more later, might not be the best

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Speaker 3: place to search for alien life, might not be the

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Speaker 3: best place for humans to colonize. That doesn't mean it

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Speaker 3: is a place without mysteries of its own. There can

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Speaker 3: be mysteries of a quite inorganic nature that I still

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Speaker 3: think are pretty compelling.

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Speaker 4: And I wanted to bring up one of.

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Speaker 3: Those mystery dunes of Io, so Rob to start off with,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna have you look at two images side by

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Speaker 3: side in our outline here and folks at home, we

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Speaker 3: will describe them for you so you understand what we're

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Speaker 3: looking at. On the right, we have a satellite image.

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Speaker 3: This is taken from above the Namib Desert, which is

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Speaker 3: on the west facing Atlantic coast of Southern Africa, and

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Speaker 3: that desert covers parts of the coastal region of Angola,

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Speaker 3: South Africa and primarily Namibia. Now, looking down at this

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Speaker 3: desert from an orbital perspective, we can see a beautiful,

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Speaker 3: almost hypnotic pattern repeating across the sandy expanse. Those are dunes,

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Speaker 3: and sand dunes are characteristic of many, but certainly not all,

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Speaker 3: desert environments on Earth. Some desert environments are very rocky,

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Speaker 3: others are very cold, places you might find ice fields,

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Speaker 3: and then other desert environments are the places you would

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Speaker 3: find vast expanses of sand dunes. Sand dunes on Earth

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Speaker 3: are formed primarily by what are called Eolian forces, meaning

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Speaker 3: they're created by the action of wind. And actually the

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Speaker 3: influence of wind comes in at multiple stages, because if

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Speaker 3: you go way back to the point of creation of

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Speaker 3: the sand, wind along with water plays a role in

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Speaker 3: the weathering and the transportation of rocks. So you start

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Speaker 3: off with rocks. You might have rocks in the mountains

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Speaker 3: or something, and they are broken up by weathering, they

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Speaker 3: get rained on, or they get the wind blows on them,

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Speaker 3: and various forces break those rocks up into smaller pieces,

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Speaker 3: which can then be transported by water and by wind

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Speaker 3: downhill into places where they collect, and over time, those

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Speaker 3: pieces of rock are continually broken down into smaller and

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Speaker 3: smaller pieces by further weathering and erosion and transport and

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Speaker 3: the smallest sizes of mineral grains. You might remember this

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Speaker 3: if you listen to our series on dust are known

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Speaker 3: as from larger to smaller are known as sand silt,

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Speaker 3: and then clay. Sand Dunes are created in areas where

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Speaker 3: sand collects.

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Speaker 4: So after the rocks are.

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Speaker 3: Weathered and eroded, and then the sand is broken down

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Speaker 3: and transported, it'll sort of end up in some kind

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Speaker 3: of catching place, a depression, usually a lower lying area,

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Speaker 3: and when the wind blows it can move sand particles

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Speaker 3: along with it, And this is something yet again we

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Speaker 3: talked about in our series on dust. The term for

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Speaker 3: the process by which sand is moved around by the

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Speaker 3: wind is known as saltation. So you can get different

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Speaker 3: ways that the wind interacts with sediments and rock pieces

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Speaker 3: of different sizes, So you know, a larger rock, the

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Speaker 3: wind blows against it, it's not going anywhere. Maybe a pebble,

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Speaker 3: the wind blows against it, it might kind of move

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Speaker 3: it a little bit, or a pebble might get blown

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Speaker 3: off another a pile of other pebbles and kind of

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Speaker 3: tumble a little bit, but it doesn't really go much

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Speaker 3: of anywhere unless you get really high winds. And then meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: if you go all the way down to the sort

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Speaker 3: of the dust size of grains of sediment, the wind

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Speaker 3: can pick it up and carry it up into the

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Speaker 3: atmosphere and then the dust just you know, it is

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Speaker 3: borne aloft for a long long time. It can travel anywhere.

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Speaker 3: It can travel across the land, across the ocean, end

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Speaker 3: up in different places. But sand is in this middle

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Speaker 3: zone where it's subject primarily to the forces known as saltation.

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Speaker 3: When wind blows on sand, the sand will be blown

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Speaker 3: along the surface of the ground, or will follow the

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Speaker 3: surface of whatever sort of the base layer of the

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Speaker 3: earth is, and it will be will be kicked up,

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Speaker 3: and it'll kind of jump and bounce and then come

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Speaker 3: back down and hit the sand, and that will cause

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Speaker 3: other pieces of sand to kind of get knocked out

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Speaker 3: of place when the initial piece of sand lands, so

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Speaker 3: it creates this kind of bouncing, jumping, hopping motion as

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Speaker 3: sand is blown along by the wind, as sand gets

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Speaker 3: blown along by the wind, as saltation is going on.

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Speaker 3: At some point the flow of wind driven sand can

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Speaker 3: become obstructed. Maybe it gets caught on an obstacle like

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Speaker 3: there's a bush, or maybe it falls behind an obstacle

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Speaker 3: like a bush or piece of vegetation, and then the

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Speaker 3: wind cannot exert as much of a force on it anymore,

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Speaker 3: so it just kind of like sits there and grains

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Speaker 3: can pile up, or maybe it gets blown against the

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Speaker 3: side of a slightly elevated pile of other grains of

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Speaker 3: sand and it gets stuck there instead of moving on

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Speaker 3: and from here, these places where sand starts to collect

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Speaker 3: can be a self reinforcing process, where a mound of

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Speaker 3: sand just gets bigger and bigger as the wind forces

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Speaker 3: blowing sand particles against it cause the particles to collect

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Speaker 3: around this mound in one way or another. So a

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Speaker 3: common format of sand dune that you will get in places,

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Speaker 3: especially where the dominant winds are blowing primarily in one direction,

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Speaker 3: is that the side of the sand dune facing the

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Speaker 3: wind will be a smoother, slower, more gradual slope, and

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Speaker 3: then the side of the sand dune facing away from

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Speaker 3: the dominant winds will be a much steeper, sharper slope.

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Speaker 3: And what's usually happening is the wind is blowing sand

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Speaker 3: along and it's eroding sand from the middle of the

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Speaker 3: rising slope on the windward side, and then trying to

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Speaker 3: deposit it right at the crest, right at the peak

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Speaker 3: of the dune. And in this way, over years and years,

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Speaker 3: more and more sand accumulates. But sand dunes don't just

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Speaker 3: grow higher and higher forever. Eventually a sand dune will collapse,

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Speaker 3: not totally disappearing, but losing height. And this happens when

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Speaker 3: one side of the dune becomes too steep, exceeding what

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Speaker 3: is called the angle of repose. Now, this is a

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Speaker 3: kind of cool physics principle. I think we may have

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Speaker 3: talked about this on the show before, but the angle

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Speaker 3: of repose is the steepest angle that a pile of

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Speaker 3: sediment or whatever other granular substance can attain before it

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Speaker 3: collapses under its own weight. In fact, I wonder if

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Speaker 3: we talked about the angle of repose in when we

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Speaker 3: were talking about the ant lion, because I believe that

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Speaker 3: is a factor in the construction of their conical traps.

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Speaker 3: That you know, they make them so just so that

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Speaker 3: they're sort of right on the edge, and it's easy

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Speaker 3: for the sides to start collapsing and pull an ant

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Speaker 3: down if they fall in.

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Speaker 1: That may be a place where it's come up before.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Now, the angle of repose is not a universal constant.

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Speaker 3: It instead depends on a number of variables about the

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Speaker 3: material you're piling up. So you know, different types of sand,

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Speaker 3: different grain sizes of sand, like the amount of friction

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Speaker 3: between the particles, how big the particles are on average.

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Speaker 4: Stuff like that will all affect what the.

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Speaker 3: Angle of repose is for a pile of this stuff.

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Speaker 4: But I was reading that.

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Speaker 3: I was reading on an information page by the USGS.

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Speaker 3: This was a page about Sand Dunes National Park in Colorado.

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Speaker 3: The angle of repose for sand is usually between thirty

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Speaker 3: and thirty four degrees, so once it gets steeper than that,

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Speaker 3: the dune will collapse. And this in part explains why

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Speaker 3: when you're looking at pictures of sand dunes in the desert,

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Speaker 3: you will, as I said, often see them with this

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Speaker 3: one smooth side kind of a gentler slope on one

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Speaker 3: side ascending at a shallower angle, and then the other

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Speaker 3: side will fall off at a steeper angle with an

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Speaker 3: almost kind of sheared off texture.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, looking like someone is sliced into it to get

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Speaker 1: a little bit of the dessert. That's sort of a.

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Speaker 3: Look, yes, exactly. So generally the smoother side is facing

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Speaker 3: the dominant winds, where the sediment continues to be eroded

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Speaker 3: from the slope going up and then tries, and then

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Speaker 3: the wind deposits more and more of it at the crest,

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Speaker 3: and then it gets steeper and steeper on the downwind

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Speaker 3: side until it collapses. And of course there's also going

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Speaker 3: to be some sand grains falling over the top of

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Speaker 3: the dune and then ending up down sort of in

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Speaker 3: the shelter from the wind on the leeward side. And

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Speaker 3: sand dunes are really interesting, you know, you can if

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Speaker 3: you watch them over long periods of time, they can

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Speaker 3: start to seem less like the geological formations were used to.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we know that mountains move over time, but

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Speaker 3: you know, it's really hard to imagine how mountains move.

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Speaker 3: You really have to just sort of think outside of

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Speaker 3: the human timescale, dunes are kind of somewhere in between

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Speaker 3: mountains and the waves in the ocean. Over periods of

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Speaker 3: you know, months or years, dunes will creep across the

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Speaker 3: surface of the Earth. So that's dunes on Earth.

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Speaker 4: However, Rob, I.

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Speaker 3: Want to come back and have you look at the

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Speaker 3: photos we started with. So the one we were looking

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Speaker 3: at first is sand dunes on Earth. But then the

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Speaker 3: photo I've got for you here on the left is

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Speaker 3: a photo of Io. So what we see on the

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Speaker 3: lower left hand side of the image is a kind

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Speaker 3: of dark spreading expanse that has a sort of creepy

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Speaker 3: organic outline, kind of like if you zoom way out,

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Speaker 3: like a flood pouring through topography. And researchers think that

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Speaker 3: this area in the photo of Io is probably one

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Speaker 3: of those relatively fresh lava flows that we talked about

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Speaker 3: last time. You know, a lot of the surface of

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Speaker 3: Io is affected by lava flows, and that they can

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Speaker 3: be huge, enormous hundreds of kilometers of just lava flows.

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Speaker 3: And this helps contribute, of course to what Carl Sagan

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Speaker 3: said about the moon right. He said that Io is

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Speaker 3: a place of relatively rapid change by planetary standards, major

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Speaker 3: changes to the surface of Io can occur on timescale

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Speaker 3: of months. But if you look at the other side

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Speaker 3: of this image from Galileo, not the dark side, but

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Speaker 3: the lighter colored side, we see not lava flows, but

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Speaker 3: these pale reflective ripples, thousands of them, arrayed in a

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Speaker 3: repeating pattern, kind of like what you would see in

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Speaker 3: like when you can see a standing wave of emerging

437
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 3: in a fluid, or you know, if you like a rattle,

438
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 3: you like rattle a speaker, and then on top of

439
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 3: it there's some sand. You get these emerging things. One

440
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 3: thing I wanted to compare it to was like a

441
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 3: silver reptile skin. It has almost kind of a pebbly

442
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 3: lizard texture.

443
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: It does.

444
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 3: But actually when you see him side by side here

445
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 3: this looks quite a lot like satellite photos of desert

446
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,120
Speaker 3: dunes on Earth. But could that really be what they are?

447
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: Because remember what we talked about in the previous episode.

448
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 3: Io only has the most tenuous, ghostlike suggestion of an atmosphere.

449
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 3: It's composed prime of sulfur dioxide with a few other

450
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 3: trace constituents. And for a comparison of how thin iOS

451
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 3: atmosphere is, I was looking for you know, what's the

452
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 3: difference between Earth's atmosphere and iOS And I actually found

453
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 3: a twenty twenty press release from the National Science Foundation

454
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 3: that addressed this. They crunch the numbers and they say

455
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 3: that Io's atmosphere is roughly a billion times thinner than Earth's.

456
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 3: It is barely an atmosphere at all, thicker than the

457
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 3: even more tenuous exosphere of Earth's moon, which I was

458
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 3: looking that up. Also, apparently Earth's moon has such a

459
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 3: thin layer of gas that there are only about one

460
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 3: hundred molecules of gas per cubic centimeter near its surface.

461
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 3: So iOS is thicker than that, but still not thick

462
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 3: enough to cause irrosive wind patterns like we have on Earth.

463
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 3: So if there's not enough of an atmosphere to sustain

464
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 3: significant winds on Io. And if dunes are generally created

465
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 3: by Eolien forces by wind, what's making the dunes or

466
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 3: are they actually dunes at all? So, just a couple

467
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 3: of years ago, there was a paper that actually addressed

468
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 3: this question. It was published in Nature Communications by MacDonald

469
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 3: at All and the title is this will answer some

470
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 3: of the questions Eolian sediment transport on Io from lava

471
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 3: frost interactions and for context. I was also reading about

472
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 3: this in a Rutgers University press release by Kiddy macpherson

473
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 3: from April twenty twenty two that had some quotes.

474
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 4: From the authors.

475
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: So, first of all, to answer the question are these dunes?

476
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 3: Previous researchers had noted that the features which are generally

477
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 3: turned termed ridges in the astronomy context or the planetary

478
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 3: science context, these features that they had been noticed for

479
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 3: their similarity to Eolian sand dunes on planets like Earth

480
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 3: and Mars. Mars has dunes as well, But these previous

481
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 3: investigations usually argued, no, these are probably not dunes formed

482
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 3: by wind, for the reasons that we've already raised. The

483
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 3: atmosphere of Io is not thick enough to really have wind.

484
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 3: It's not thick enough to lift sediment and move it around.

485
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 3: And again, this moving around of sediment by sediment particles

486
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 3: by wind would be saltation. So remember that when it

487
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 3: comes up in these quotes the authors of the paperwright

488
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 3: quote choosing zero point one nanobars as a representative atmospheric pressure.

489
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 3: One study estimated a twenty kilometer per second threshold friction

490
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 3: speed to move grains on Io two orders of magnitude

491
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 3: greater than Io's roughly three hundred meters per second. Wins,

492
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 3: concluding that an Eolian origin for these features was impossible,

493
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 3: formation by tidal forces was favored. Now, tidal forces means

494
00:27:55,320 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 3: the interaction of different gravitational forces on matter, exerting a

495
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 3: pulling or a stretching force. So this an This alternate

496
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 3: explanation previously favored because Io can't sustain winds, is that

497
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 3: there's something about the gravity that is causing these ridge

498
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 3: features to emerge. However, despite agreeing that saltation is not

499
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 3: possible under the ambient atmospheric conditions of Io, the authors

500
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 3: note that there really are a number of similarities between

501
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 3: the features seen in these images and Eolian dunes. They

502
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 3: mentioned quote the ridges, regular spacing, slightly meandering forms, and

503
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 3: possession of crestline defects. So these are all features that

504
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: are very similar, so similar to wind formed dunes on

505
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 3: Earth and Mars that it would be kind of strange

506
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 3: if that's not what they were. So is there any

507
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: way that these features could have been formed by something

508
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 3: like wind, even though you know, even given the limitations

509
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 3: we know of Io's atmosphere. Well, the authors of the

510
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 3: paper note that the thickness of Io's atmosphere is not

511
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 3: consistent across its surface, so the density of surface gas

512
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 3: could actually be much higher at certain times and in

513
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 3: certain areas, specifically in the vicinity of volcanic vents, which

514
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 3: are rapidly spewing so two gas as they erupt. The

515
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 3: authors ask, what if there is a sort of you

516
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 3: could say, quote unquote wind that is present locally, not globally,

517
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 3: on the surface of Io, consisting of some kind of

518
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 3: rush of gases from subsurface interactions from volcanism or from

519
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 3: downstream effects of volcanic eruptions, And what if this is

520
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 3: responsible for crafting the dunes? And this is in fact

521
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 3: what they find support for in their paper and the

522
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 3: author's write quote here we demonstrate that interactions between lava

523
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 3: from volcanic eruptions and the sulfur die dioxide frost blanketing

524
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 3: Io's surface can produce localized sublimation vapor flows with sufficient

525
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 3: gas densities to enable saltation. So I thought that was

526
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 3: really interesting. So what would these interactions be. To be clear,

527
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 3: they're not talking about their quote unquote wind being the

528
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: gases that burst directly from volcanic eruptions. You know, it's

529
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,239
Speaker 3: not like the gas comes out of the volcano and

530
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 3: that is the wind. They're talking instead about a secondary

531
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 3: mechanism that they find probable, which is that you have

532
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 3: hot lava flowing just underneath the surface of the frost

533
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 3: layer here, and it's creating this interaction with the sulfur

534
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 3: dioxide frost on the surface, causing the sulfur dioxide to sublimate. Essentially,

535
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 3: it heats it up and it causes an outgasing process.

536
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 3: So suddenly a bunch of this SO two turns into gas,

537
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 3: and then they find that that would be capable of

538
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: driving saltation. So lead author George MacDonald, quoted in the

539
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 3: press release, says, our studies point to the possibility of

540
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 3: Iowa as a new dune world. We have proposed and

541
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: quantitatively tested a mechanism by which sand grains can move

542
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 3: and in turn dunes could be forming there. And I

543
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 3: really they actually come through in the in the press

544
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 3: release there the authors are like referencing the book Dune

545
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 3: and talking about how it could.

546
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 4: Be like a racket.

547
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 3: So I like the dedication to like we have we

548
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 3: have determined how it can be a dune world.

549
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: We have captured a sand worm and will soon begin

550
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: the spice spice production on another planet.

551
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 3: Yes, Now, if this is in fact the mechanism, it

552
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 3: would explain a number of things. It would explain the

553
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: similarity to dunes created by wind on the other planets.

554
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 3: Of course, it would also explain, sort of going against

555
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 3: the tidal forces argument, why you see dunes in different orientations,

556
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 3: because the authors say, you know, if it was tidal forces,

557
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 3: it seems like you'd be more likely to see all

558
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 3: the dunes kind of aligned along with certain gravitational axis,

559
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 3: but instead you see dunes facing different directions. But another

560
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 3: thing is that if this really is the mechanism, you

561
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 3: might expect to see more dunes forming, like around the

562
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 3: edges of lava flows like we see in this image

563
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 3: we started with, where you've got this black glassy area

564
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: on one part of the image. You know, that's where

565
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 3: the lava is flowing, and then at the edge of

566
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 3: that it's probably interacting with these these planes of so

567
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 3: two frost, and that could be creating the winds that

568
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 3: blow that blow over the surface and help form the dunes.

569
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: Interesting.

570
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 3: So I feel like sci fi writers we're just feeding you.

571
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 3: We're just you know, like you can you can do

572
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 3: a Dune type thing on io that'll work here.

573
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean it's a again, this is

574
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: it's an exciting world and perhaps a little too exciting,

575
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: and I think that's what maybe scares away even some

576
00:32:58,760 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: sci fi visions.

577
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, once again, I mean I agree, that's fair. Like

578
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 3: I understand, especially if you're trying to write hard or

579
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 3: semi hard sci fi, like dealing with the real what

580
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 3: we actually know and how that would inform the story

581
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 3: creates problems. But I think this is really enticing because Okay,

582
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 3: so we've seen Arakus, we've seen Dune as a hot world,

583
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 3: but imagine a freezing cold Dune world but also super

584
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 3: hot in certain areas.

585
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: I guess one of the things to keep in mind,

586
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: kind of going back to our full episodes on the

587
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: Jovian moons, is like they're all kind of terrible, you know,

588
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: compared to what we have here on Earth. I mean

589
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: the same can be said for pretty much everywhere else

590
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: in our Solar system and the known universe. You know,

591
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: like this this is the world we can live on,

592
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: This is the world we have to make work and

593
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: the rest of them. It's kind of like looking at

594
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: the I don't know, Batman's rogue gallery and saying, well,

595
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: which one is the like, the least awful, And you

596
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: might be like, well, mister Freeze has some you know,

597
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: some virtues to him, yes, but he's still a murderous

598
00:33:58,680 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: madman killer.

599
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 3: It's a very good comparison. Weirdly, and I've sort of

600
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 3: had this on my mind lately. I mean, this is

601
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 3: something I think of every now and then ever since

602
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 3: I read Kim Stanley Robinson's Aurora, which is a book

603
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 3: very much about It's a space exploration book that I

604
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 3: don't want to spoil too much for people who haven't

605
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 3: read it, but it ends up being very much about

606
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 3: the virtues of Earth and you know, the preciousness of

607
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 3: the planet we already have, And so that's a wonderful theme.

608
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 3: It's you know, some people I love space, space exploration

609
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 3: and space colonization as a setting for a science fiction story.

610
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 3: I mean, I love that as much as anybody. But

611
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 3: also sometimes in people who are real advocates of space exploration,

612
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 3: you almost get a sense of that they're just kind

613
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 3: of done with Earth. It's like, yeah, okay, we've used

614
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 3: that up. We can kick that out. We just got

615
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 3: to move on to the next thing. I don't I

616
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 3: don't think that's a good basket to put your chickens in.

617
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: No, no, I mean, you know this has come up

618
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: in various conversations in the show before, but you know,

619
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: you pretty much any model for near to medium term

620
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: colonization efforts, you know elsewhere in the Solar System, those

621
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: are all going to be completely dependent upon Earth. You know,

622
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: there's there's no deshackling from that planet. You know, even

623
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: in your sci fi visions. You know, it's that you

624
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: have to really look at far future scenarios where it

625
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: would even become possibly feasible for there to be truly

626
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: independent colonies, independent systems that are not depending on this

627
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: place where we evolve to thrive.

628
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 4: Yeah.

629
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more. And and to be clear once again,

630
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 3: like I'm not against space exploration or even necessarily space colonization.

631
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: I can see the beauty and the excitement in those

632
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 3: kind of grand projects, but I don't know, I find

633
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 3: it revolting when that kind of grand ambition brings along

634
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 3: with it contempt for the planet that we need right

635
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 3: now and will need for the foreseeable future.

636
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 4: You gotta love Earth now.

637
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: This is a commentary that has existed in the zeitgeist

638
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: for a while. I always come back to a particular

639
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:13,439
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four talk given by Terrence McKenna in which

640
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: he refers to the Earth as quote, an incredible pearl

641
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: flung out in a universe of ashes and darkness. And

642
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: he's making a larger point in referencing this about a

643
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: decision to be made regarding human nature and how we

644
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: view ourselves and our place in the universe. But I

645
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: keep coming back to that idea. Our Earth is this

646
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: incredible pearl, and because it is the place where there

647
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 1: is life, it is the place where we are meant

648
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: to be. And you know, we may expand out and

649
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: explore these other places, we may expand out and make

650
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: new homes on these other places, but this is the

651
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: place from which we arose. This is our true home.

652
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: This is the only place we can count on to

653
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: sustain us as long as we cherish it.

654
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 3: Everywhere else is a gamble, and you don't bet the

655
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 3: home world on a gamble.

656
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 4: You know it's right. Nothing else is a sure.

657
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: Thing, and you certainly don't bet on io Yeah, no,

658
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: because I don't think anybody's realistically betting on IO. They may,

659
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 1: they may be placing moderate bets on other destinations in

660
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: our solar system, but IO is is the odds are

661
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: great if you're a gambler, but it's not likely going

662
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: to be a win.

663
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 3: However, greatly worth studying. It's not, if not, the number

664
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,919
Speaker 3: one candidate for a little for a base out there.

665
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 3: One thing I did observe about that quote before we

666
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 3: move on, though, I actually think the pearl is a

667
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 3: wonderful metaphor for Earth, not just because it's a ball,

668
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 3: you know, like Earth is roughly spherical and pearl is

669
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 3: usually somewhat spherical, not just because it is precious. I mean, pearl,

670
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 3: of course is a type of jewel, so it's precious,

671
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 3: just like the Earth is. But it is also a

672
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 3: essentially a mineral product at its material base, which most

673
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 3: of the Earth is, but also a biofact. You know,

674
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 3: pearl is created by life, and the way the Earth

675
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 3: is now it was also in a way created by life.

676
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 3: Life is defined what the planet is down to its

677
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: very physical substance.

678
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely.

679
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 3: Oh, now, Rob, I remembered something we said we were

680
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 3: going to come back to was the question of the

681
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,439
Speaker 3: possibility of IO sustaining life. We've already said that it's

682
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 3: probably not, you know, just from what we already know,

683
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 3: probably not the first candidate to look for life elsewhere

684
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 3: in our Solar system. But you know, with most planetary

685
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 3: bodies out there, people have kind of done the work

686
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 3: to say, like what sort of thing would be most

687
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 3: plausible here. And I know you'd been reading a bit

688
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 3: about IO and life, so once you turn up.

689
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, again, it is an extreme environment and it's

690
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 1: by no means the best option for life in amid

691
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: the Jovian Moons. The best options I think are arguably

692
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: Europa and Ganymede. But you know, we know, based on

693
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: our own model of life here on Earth, that life

694
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: can thrive in extreme environments, and you know, over the

695
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: past several decades, I think that's become more and more

696
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: crystallized in our understanding that you know, life here on

697
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: Earth is pretty rugged, and certain models of it can

698
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: survive in very hostile conditions. So it's not completely out

699
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: of the question that something could evolve, either evolve within

700
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: those hostile conditions on another world, or survive in such conditions.

701
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: You know, after the loss of previous habitat, and so

702
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: I was looking around. In One individual in particular that

703
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 1: has speculated a fair amount concerning IO is German astrobiologist

704
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 1: Dirk Schultz. Makouch speculated in twenty twenty three on Big

705
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: Think about the possibility. The title of the Big Think

706
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: article that he crafted is there could be life on

707
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: hot volcanic Io Jupiter's quote pizza met.

708
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 3: We talked about the pizza surface in the last episode.

709
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 3: It looks like it's got I don't know, what would

710
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 3: you say. The topping selection is definitely pepperoni and olives.

711
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and cheese of course, the amount of cheese,

712
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: a lot of mozzarella and or parmesan on top. And

713
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: of course Macouch has has also a third and co

714
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: authored a number of peer reviewed articles that the Big

715
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: Think article is more is more general audience. But but

716
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: he goes through, you know, all the major points that

717
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: he hits in some of these other articles, and he

718
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: drives home that the Juno mission revealed much more about

719
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: IO than we previously knew, and that based on these

720
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: more recent discoveries, you know, it's reasonable to hypothesize that

721
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: while IO is now this volcanic world of extreme cold

722
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: and extreme hot temperatures. It may have once had as

723
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,720
Speaker 1: much liquid water as Europa and Gany meat and during

724
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: those early days, the combination combination of liquid water and

725
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: geothermal heat, again in a highly volcanic world, could have

726
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: led to the development of life. However, of course, this

727
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't be the case today. Io would have gone on

728
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: to lose most of that water due to Jupiter's radiation

729
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: and tidal forces, and this is pretty much left the

730
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 1: surface of Io quite uninhabitable. But what about the underground, Well,

731
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: Schulzmakouch stresses that it might still prove too violent beneath

732
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: Io's surface for life. Like it's still it's still not

733
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: the best bet, but you know, he says that there's

734
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 1: a chance it could survive there due to the possibibility

735
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: of remaining abundant water, carbon and reduced sulfur compounds. So

736
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:58,959
Speaker 1: a dynamic, though possibly too dynamic environment for life. Maybe

737
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: not on the surface of Io, but but perhaps maybe

738
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: underneath the surface of the planet. Beneath the planet of

739
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: the Pizza if you will.

740
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's where the remnants of their civilization worship a

741
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 3: giant pizza oven.

742
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, so where would we look for them if

743
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: we could at all look for them on this world. Well,

744
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: he suggests lava tubes, which should be common on such

745
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: a volcanically active world. These would of course be beneath

746
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: the surface of Io, where they would possibly serve as

747
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: a safe haven for life, protected to some degree from

748
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,439
Speaker 1: radiation and subject to warm, you know, at least semi

749
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: constant temperatures. And he stresses that lava tubes here on Earth,

750
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: you know, they provide a great example because they are

751
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 1: often home to extremophile and microbial life. Regardless of the

752
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: region in which you find them, you know they This

753
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: is true of lava tubes and the desert as well

754
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: as in Iceland in places like that. And on top

755
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: of that, lava tubes on Mars, according to Chuls mccooch,

756
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 1: the most plausible place to find life on the Red planet.

757
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: So lava tubes in general great place to look for

758
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: It seems like lava tubes should be present beneath the

759
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 1: surface of Io as well. Now. He also discusses that

760
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 1: if there's not enough water for life on Io, it's

761
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: also feasible that hydrogen sulfide might stand in for water.

762
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: Though he stresses that quote suggesting an alternative, alternative solvent

763
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: for life is always very very speculative. Yeah, so I

764
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: do want to make sure I'm doing justice to what

765
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: he has written and said about this, because he's not

766
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: saying there's definitely life on Io. He's saying, you know,

767
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 1: we have to keep an open mind about these things

768
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: and discuss how it could exist there based on what

769
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: we know of life here on Earth.

770
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 4: Right.

771
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 3: Well, as you said, this is a common experiment a

772
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 3: lot of you know, people who are interested in astrobiology

773
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 3: go through. Is not to say there is definitely life

774
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 3: on Titan or whatever it is, but to say, okay,

775
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 3: given the conditions we know about here, what could you

776
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 3: imagine working there? If we were to discover life in

777
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 3: this kind of place, where would we expect.

778
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 4: To find it?

779
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 3: What form would we expect it to take?

780
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it sounds like the possibility here would be

781
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: some sort of you know, microbial extremophile life form that

782
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: again is living in certain lava tubes where they're protected

783
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: from the radiation, where there's something like consistent warmth going

784
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: on and it's not subject to like massive friezes and

785
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: then massive you know, boiling temperatures, so it but again,

786
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: it would be down in these lava tubes. And one

787
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: of the things that he points out is that, yeah,

788
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: these we just have to speculate like this, This would

789
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: be very hard to just to explore one hundred percent

790
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: for a number of reasons. It's very difficult to figure

791
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: out how you would like land a craft or a

792
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 1: rover on Io and then dig down underneath the surface.

793
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: It's a very hostile world. However, there's still plenty of

794
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: room to explore it from an orbital standpoint, and we

795
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 1: can continue to learn more about the surface of Io

796
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 1: and the composition of Io, and in doing so we

797
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 1: might be able to make even better guesses about what

798
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: might be beneath the surface. All right, Well, on that note,

799
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 1: we're going to close out this episode, but we'll come

800
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: back with one more episode on Io this Thursday. In

801
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 1: the meantime, definitely feel free to write into us. We'd

802
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: love to hear from you your thoughts about anything we

803
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 1: discussed here. Examples of Io from science fiction, all of

804
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: that is fair game. Well, remind you The Stuff to

805
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast,

806
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 1: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episodes

807
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, and on Fridays, we set aside most serious

808
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: concerns to just talk about a weird film on Weird

809
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: House Cinema. Maybe we'll get to Outland someday. It's been

810
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: on kind of like the shortlist for a little bit,

811
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: but maybe someday soon. If you would like us to

812
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: cover Outland on Weird House Cinema, write in and encourage us.

813
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 4: Sir Shawn just looks so serious.

814
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, he's very serious in this one, doesn't I

815
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: think maybe that's why I've held off on this one,

816
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 1: Like this is a gritty film, or at least that's

817
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: my memory of it, very gritty, not a lot of

818
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: fun to be had, you know, it's it's it's a

819
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: dirty future.

820
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 4: Oh, I've got a note.

821
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 3: Does he just use his normal accent or does he

822
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 3: pretend to have a different accent?

823
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: Who? Well, I mean, I don't remember, but if I

824
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: had to bet, I would say just normal accent. Okay,

825
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: that's normally how it shakes out.

826
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 3: I would want to hear Sean Connery doing cowboy voice. Well,

827
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 3: howdy partner?

828
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 4: All right?

829
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 3: Huge, Thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ posway.

830
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

831
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

832
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hi,

833
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

834
00:46:53,040 --> 00:47:01,760
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

835
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

836
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

837
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:24,840
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