Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
Speaker 3: These are our stories, Done Done.
Speaker 4: That's Messed Up. An sv podcast.
Speaker 1: My name is Lisa and I'm Kara, and every week
Speaker 1: we tackle an episode of a really great television show
Speaker 1: called Law and Order Special Victims Unit. We talk about
Speaker 1: a true crime that it was based on, and we
Speaker 1: interview an actor from the show. But first, there's a
Speaker 1: lot going on. Hold on, there's a lot going on. Okay,
Speaker 1: do you have something you want to start with, because.
Speaker 4: I well, I'll do a quick louisg update.
Speaker 2: So basically, the federal judge said that they're not going
Speaker 2: to set a trial date until like December twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: So this trial on the federal level will not happen
Speaker 2: until twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1: And why why would they wait seven months to set.
Speaker 4: A date, I don't know.
Speaker 2: And but also as of now, the state trial is
Speaker 2: supposed to be going first, and she has put Karen
Speaker 2: has put an emotion to do the federal trial first
Speaker 2: since the death penalties attached, like that's obviously more important,
Speaker 2: but I don't know. I think it's just to get
Speaker 2: all the motions right, all the evidence. There's like so much,
Speaker 2: like I think it's just this might be normal. I've
Speaker 2: never followed a case like this intensely before, but what okay,
Speaker 2: So basically the most fucked up thing is it was
Speaker 2: found out that prosecution was listening to a phone call
Speaker 2: with him and his attorney, so they were listening to
Speaker 2: a privileged conversation with the attorney.
Speaker 4: This is brought up in court.
Speaker 2: Karen in court is like, hey, judge, like, we know
Speaker 2: for a fact they were listening to conversations in the court.
Speaker 2: The prosecution goes, oh, this is the first we're hearing
Speaker 2: of this, Like we had no idea this was happening.
Speaker 4: So then Karen on.
Speaker 2: The Luigi Manjioni defense like website, like on the legal website,
Speaker 2: has transcripts from court and puts out statements and basically
Speaker 2: she was like, fuck the prosecution for doing that.
Speaker 4: Here's a statement.
Speaker 2: And then the prosecution sent a letter to the judge
Speaker 2: and made it public that was like fuck you, this
Speaker 2: is bullshit, Like they know for a fact conversations will
Speaker 2: be listened to, and it was paralegal who listened. In
Speaker 2: the moment she realized it was privileged, she stopped listening.
Speaker 4: We knew immediately. We took like blah blah blah, blah blah.
Speaker 2: And then Karen's response was just like, here's the transcript
Speaker 2: to court. So in court they said, we've never heard
Speaker 2: of this. And then the statement they released after court,
Speaker 2: the prosecution says.
Speaker 4: Actually apparently heard it.
Speaker 2: A paralegal heard it. We stopped it immediately and we
Speaker 2: made everyone known. And he needs a designated line for lawyers,
Speaker 2: but the inmates should know that all their convos on
Speaker 2: like this other line is being listened to. So then
Speaker 2: Karen's response is just like four sentences, not even and
Speaker 2: it's like my response is the transcript, babe, So which
Speaker 2: is it?
Speaker 4: And so that was only like four days ago.
Speaker 2: That's all dated and was released but like on the
Speaker 2: on the twenty fifth.
Speaker 4: Was the court date. So like this is getting crazy.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, it's an unfair Everything is like
Speaker 2: unfair and fucked. But the fact that they're lying in
Speaker 2: court like this and then trying to embarrass her and
Speaker 2: he's always condescending. He was like, and if Karen wants
Speaker 2: to read up on the law that you can listen
Speaker 2: to call like just such a dick.
Speaker 4: But we'll see what ends up happening.
Speaker 2: But yeah, we're not going to get a trial till
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, and then I do hope they let
Speaker 2: the federal trial go first. And then the reason I
Speaker 2: know that this the federal government has like a ninety
Speaker 2: seven percent conviction rate is because a man was harassing
Speaker 2: Karen on the street, yelling at But it's like they're
Speaker 2: doing it because they want him to set up all there.
Speaker 2: They didn't do an indictment because they don't have a case.
Speaker 2: I think they know they don't have a case, and
Speaker 2: they're just like shocked that he was able to afford
Speaker 2: such good defense.
Speaker 4: Like I really don't know what's going on.
Speaker 2: I don't think they're gonna let him go because he's
Speaker 2: become the symbol of something. But it's pretty fucked the
Speaker 2: prosecutor just lying in court, lying outside of court, and
Speaker 2: all she had, like I think that's a mic drop
Speaker 2: read the transcript and that's all she needed to say.
Speaker 4: Be like, which is it, bitch?
Speaker 2: So those are the only updates I have at the
Speaker 2: moment in terms of Okay, but there was like we
Speaker 2: weren't able to see him. You know, he was wearing
Speaker 2: a jail uniform like beige is what I've heard. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I don't know what's Oh, and they requested bail.
Speaker 2: I doubt that he's gonna get it, but they requested bail.
Speaker 2: And I hope his family is rich enough. I hope
Speaker 2: they're talking to him. I hope he gets afforded bail.
Speaker 2: And I really hope he gets to like house arrest
Speaker 2: or something.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, crazy because he's obviously being treated us fairly.
Speaker 2: If his phone calls are now being listened to, and
Speaker 2: then the prosecution can just lan in court. But I
Speaker 2: have to read more of the transcript. You know, I
Speaker 2: have to live a life like keeping up with his
Speaker 2: case is like a full time job. It feels like
Speaker 2: on top of everything else, I do so trying my best.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: Well, there was all kinds of news like today, basically yesterday,
Speaker 1: that that Virginia. I don't know how you say this
Speaker 1: last name, Geffrey. Geoffrey was she was this woman who
Speaker 1: had I think, testified that she had been on Epstein's
Speaker 1: Island and like was had been with Prince Andrew or whatever, like,
Speaker 1: and that he trafficked her to Prince Andrew when she
Speaker 1: was sixteen and all this stuff. She just took her
Speaker 1: own life, and everyone's like.
Speaker 4: Did she.
Speaker 1: Like everybody that's involved in this case keeps like ending,
Speaker 1: I'm surprised Joanne Gallainne Maxwell is still with us. But
Speaker 1: it's really sketchy, Like I was surprised, and this poor woman,
Speaker 1: like her fucking most of the majority of her life
Speaker 1: has been dealing with this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just dark anyway.
Speaker 1: I don't know if maybe you had any Epstein conspiracy
Speaker 1: theory thoughts.
Speaker 2: No, but it's just like, well, in my head, it's
Speaker 2: like why wouldn't the government protect her?
Speaker 4: But it's like they're in on it. Yeah, So I don't.
Speaker 2: Have anything to say besides I guess I gotta keep
Speaker 2: my mouth shut.
Speaker 1: Wow she Yeah, I mean she accused her husband of
Speaker 1: physical abuse. I think she was as strange from her
Speaker 1: children for some reason, like she had a lot going on,
Speaker 1: but like it all stems from this, Like it doesn't
Speaker 1: make her story not true. And also she had she
Speaker 1: had said years ago she was like, they're gonna kill me.
Speaker 1: These people are gonna kill me, and now she is
Speaker 1: not no longer with us, so it's like reallyughable.
Speaker 4: But let me change the subject.
Speaker 1: Last night I went to go see Real Housewives the Musical.
Speaker 4: It's Real Housewives the musical parody. I don't know. There's
Speaker 4: a few different ones.
Speaker 1: This one on Instagram is Real Housewives the Musical, and
Speaker 1: Jared is really good friends with this girl, Mary Lou
Speaker 1: and she plays Andy Cohen. She plays all these other
Speaker 1: characters in it. And then there's like four sorry five
Speaker 1: Housewives that are drag queens that are in it, and
Speaker 1: it's so funny.
Speaker 4: It's like all references to the show. I was dying.
Speaker 1: The queen's names are Tarabithia, Karantina, Briella, Briello, Diantha, and Tali,
Speaker 1: and they're so fucking funny.
Speaker 4: I was dying.
Speaker 1: And then like the whole time, they're doing Watch what
Speaker 1: Happens Live like a runner that's just like coming up
Speaker 1: on Watch What Happens Live. It's Lisa Barlow and three
Speaker 1: time Academy Award winner Meryl Streep for some reason, like
Speaker 1: then they'll they just did a few of those, and
Speaker 1: then they do an actual Watch What Happens Live, and
Speaker 1: the guests were a Kaisha forgot from drag race and
Speaker 1: because it was it was also last night's show was
Speaker 1: specifically a benefit for cystic fibrosis, and I forgot that
Speaker 1: Akasha suffers from with that, so like it was so
Speaker 1: you basically could give a venmo of five dollars and
Speaker 1: go up and Akaisha would give you like a pickleback shot,
Speaker 1: like whiskey and pickle juice.
Speaker 4: So I went up.
Speaker 1: I gave them money because I wanted to give them money.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, I was like, just a
Speaker 1: little bit of whiskey. I don't really like it very much,
Speaker 1: But then that pickle juice is delicious. I mean really,
Speaker 1: I wish you could chase other things with that. It's
Speaker 1: so good.
Speaker 4: But the other guest was Avvy. Oh my god, Avvy is.
Speaker 1: Sutton Stras houseman or whatever anymore, he laughed.
Speaker 4: They parted ways this week.
Speaker 1: I heard the inside information is that he got fired
Speaker 1: for being too fabulous or what.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: But he wouldn't say anything. He wouldn't answer any questions.
Speaker 1: They took audience questions, he couldn't answer anything. He was
Speaker 1: like being so I'm sure he's like nbaid to the hilts.
Speaker 1: So it was like, but why did you come do this?
Speaker 1: Like I was, like I was excited though, like to
Speaker 1: see Avi. I mean, I was a Dynasty typewriter. It's
Speaker 1: a small theater. I was right there with Akasha. And
Speaker 1: but anyway, if it comes to your city, like I said,
Speaker 1: it's called The Real Housewives unauthorized musical parody, and it
Speaker 1: just really cracked me up.
Speaker 4: If you like the Housewives, it was just.
Speaker 1: Joke after Joe and Jared was loving it, and he
Speaker 1: didn't understand a quarter of the references, Like all the
Speaker 1: references were like they want. They went through one time
Speaker 1: and they all ordered a drink in a like a
Speaker 1: crazy way, and then one of the characters that was
Speaker 1: not a housewife was like, these are all real drink
Speaker 1: orders from the show, like because they were so bonkers.
Speaker 4: Oh my god. Anyway, I want to go.
Speaker 1: I think it's good for Housewives fans and not fans alike.
Speaker 1: But Mary Lou was so good because she was in
Speaker 1: and out. Like at one point point she plays a
Speaker 1: party attendee who's just too into it, so like the
Speaker 1: housewives are fighting and she's just behind like what like
Speaker 1: you know how there's always people at the parties in
Speaker 1: the background that are like huh like and they're just
Speaker 1: there were so many like you could just.
Speaker 4: Tell the girl who wrote it.
Speaker 1: I actually know Rachelle Mees and she like you could
Speaker 1: just tell she likes the franchises, like she's you know,
Speaker 1: and there's all these funny songs and the different characters.
Speaker 4: I love it.
Speaker 2: I loved it incredible. Well what I love is love Hotel. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I love Hotel's amazing. My like it is just well,
Speaker 2: not so much. Shannon's gonna have a hard time. I
Speaker 2: could tell Shannon's struggling mentally. But the rest of the
Speaker 2: women are like they like dating, they like flirting. Luanne's
Speaker 2: sluttie like they're in it. They're fine, they're not waiting.
Speaker 1: They're so give me a little bit of basic info.
Speaker 1: Who are the ladies. It's Shannon, Luanne, Giselle, yeah, and
Speaker 1: Ashley Darby and Ashley okay. And then the men, I
Speaker 1: would say, are all like in their thirties to sixties okay,
Speaker 1: and more we're on the older side, I would say,
Speaker 1: but they have some young ones for uh, you know,
Speaker 1: Ashley to be there. And but the women are like,
Speaker 1: I'm not being tied down, like back off or they're like,
Speaker 1: why didn't he kiss me?
Speaker 2: What a loser? Just like really flirty women. So it's
Speaker 2: really fun. But my favorite so like Shannon's talking to
Speaker 2: this man. She goes, oh, do you know Andy Cohen? Like,
Speaker 2: what's your relationship with an? He goes who is that?
Speaker 2: And she goes, he works at the network. This show
Speaker 2: is on, And then it cuts to the man going,
Speaker 2: I don't watch TV. I don't know any of these women.
Speaker 4: We're here just I'm just here for love. I don't
Speaker 4: even care about your guys status. That's so funny. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but I hope they find love. The guys are silly.
Speaker 2: There's like an air of unseeriousness but vulnerability in this
Speaker 2: dating show that I think others don't. I don't know
Speaker 2: if it's because we already love the women. They do
Speaker 2: know how to be on TV. They're like dynamic and
Speaker 2: we want them to have fun. Yeah, and it's not
Speaker 2: that serious. If they find love or not, I don't know.
Speaker 2: But Luanne tells two guys she's like, stay here, boys,
Speaker 2: I'll be right back. Don't leave, and then she goes
Speaker 2: to flirt with another man and they're both like, she's
Speaker 2: not coming back. Let's go, I guess I like that power.
Speaker 2: But shant that's the thing. The other three women are
Speaker 2: really like that. And then Shannon's a little bit more
Speaker 2: sensitive and a little less experienced in the dating world.
Speaker 2: I mean, she went from one bad husband to a
Speaker 2: pretty terrible relationship, and so when a guy flirts with her,
Speaker 2: it spends time, and then she sees him talking to
Speaker 2: like Giselle, she kind of flips.
Speaker 1: Out right, it's not really the venue for her. It's
Speaker 1: not the medium that like she needs for meeting people.
Speaker 2: But I also knew it going in because Portia and
Speaker 2: Gizelle were on Watch What Happens Live this week and
Speaker 2: it was like a really fun episode as well, Like
Speaker 2: I got a lot of scoop about the show from them,
Speaker 2: and Joel's doing a really fun job and he sticks
Speaker 2: in a real housewife reference every other sentence, every other sentence,
Speaker 2: like it is so cool. At one point he goes
Speaker 2: and they're hung like bolo, and Luann goes, let's not
Speaker 2: oversell these.
Speaker 4: Guys, please, It's just fun. It's like a really cool thing.
Speaker 2: Because what I hate about The Bachelor and like Love
Speaker 2: is Blind, is the Christian marriage element, the conservatism, and.
Speaker 4: This is just for fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like great, I would love for them to
Speaker 2: meet love, like have love. But it's also like they're
Speaker 2: not desperate and they don't need to leave married to anyone.
Speaker 2: Like we're there for them, yeah, like we care about them,
Speaker 2: Like I don't care what.
Speaker 4: They're up to.
Speaker 1: Is there like is there like are there like little
Speaker 1: challenges and stuff like that?
Speaker 4: Is that not yet?
Speaker 5: Not yet?
Speaker 2: They just met and it was basically like they mingled, mingled,
Speaker 2: then they each pick one guy to go on a date,
Speaker 2: and then that quickly goes back to mingling. Okay, but
Speaker 2: the trailers, there's gonna be drama where it's like you
Speaker 2: can't talk to other people, and Gazelle going, I'm definitely
Speaker 2: gonna be talking to other people, you know. So it's
Speaker 2: like there's gonna it's gonna get juicier and you know,
Speaker 2: more like fights, I'm sure, But right now, it's just
Speaker 2: like they're in Mexico. It's fun and I'm I'm like
Speaker 2: happy to have this show leading us into the spring
Speaker 2: summer as I don't go outside.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm going to check it out. I'm going
Speaker 1: to check it I'm excited. I'm just like a little
Speaker 1: bit behind right now on My Housewives, Well just really
Speaker 1: Atlanta right now. I guess nothing else is on right
Speaker 1: behind on anything else.
Speaker 4: I caught up on the whole Beverly Hills, but I
Speaker 4: think just a.
Speaker 1: Lumber Yeah, but yeah, watch I don't really, I'll watch
Speaker 1: the house I'll watch the reunion.
Speaker 4: But you know, you'd never know.
Speaker 1: The page content is all over my my pages, Like
Speaker 1: I'm really I'm in a page wonderland right now. I'm
Speaker 1: seeing so many snippets and snappets.
Speaker 2: No. I loved it because she was on Watch what
Speaker 2: Happens and Andy goes, what's your response to shep calling
Speaker 2: Giggly Squad that dumb ass talk show, and she goes,
Speaker 2: bless his heart. So it's like using his own Southern
Speaker 2: language against him, like truly number two on the New
Speaker 2: York Times bestseller list. Yeah, it's like, really, it's just
Speaker 2: such a moment to try to come after them, like,
Speaker 2: of course these guys all look like fucking losers. But
Speaker 2: not Bravo. But I've been watching Hacks and I'm loving it.
Speaker 2: I get started on my most recent season of Hacks.
Speaker 4: I love it.
Speaker 2: That show does such a good job of like always
Speaker 2: taking me to a place I never see coming, Like
Speaker 2: it's such a surprising show to me, Like I always
Speaker 2: don't know what's going to happen next, and I love it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I believe.
Speaker 1: I can't believe people that tell me they don't like it.
Speaker 1: I'm like, what they're just like, I think they're haters. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's people that are haters that are haters. Right,
Speaker 1: it's almost always probably feel that are in the business.
Speaker 1: It's almost never, you know, it's not like a person
Speaker 1: that's like, well, yeah, I work on a farm and
Speaker 1: I hate hacks. Like, I don't know. I think people
Speaker 1: it's good. It's just a good show. I love it,
Speaker 1: but you know, trying to catch up. But you know,
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you we just recorded an episode. I
Speaker 1: won't say which one or anything, but we were talking
Speaker 1: about where Stabler, where we think Stabler would go on
Speaker 1: family vacations with his family, if he ever took the
Speaker 1: time to do that. And Lisa was saying camping, and
Speaker 1: I am taking Rosie camping this week, and we are
Speaker 1: camping overnight for the first time, but it's for cub scouts.
Speaker 1: Like I'm not I didn't like choose this. It's just
Speaker 1: they're doing a trip and I gotta go.
Speaker 2: And then how many chaperones are there or each kid
Speaker 2: has to bring a parent.
Speaker 1: Each kid's with a parent, and some kids have both
Speaker 1: their parents or whatever. But I'm just we're just going,
Speaker 1: me and Rosie. I don't think we can. I don't
Speaker 1: think the first time I camp with Rosie can be Jared,
Speaker 1: who's never camped once, and then also Oscar.
Speaker 4: That's just too much chaos.
Speaker 1: So we're just I literally, as we speak, have a
Speaker 1: tent set up in my in my yard because I
Speaker 1: set it up to air it out and borrowed a
Speaker 1: bunch of shit and i'mhidd into the woods.
Speaker 2: But smart of you to air it out. I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have thought. Yeah, but I'll never do that.
Speaker 4: I know how to set up a tent.
Speaker 1: I know how to do this stuff from camp, you know,
Speaker 1: But uh, I don't camp a lot. I haven't slept
Speaker 1: in a tent outside like that in decades. Because it
Speaker 1: be so cute, I think it's gonna be cute. I
Speaker 1: think she's gonna be so pumped to just be like
Speaker 1: sleeping in a little tent with me, and like she's
Speaker 1: gonna run around with all her friends and make s'mores
Speaker 1: and shit.
Speaker 4: She's gonna love it.
Speaker 2: Oh, this is it, and I'll give everyone a head up.
Speaker 2: Hopefully there's tickets still available. But Marishka Hargate is premiering
Speaker 2: a documentary about Jane Mansfield during her mother during the
Speaker 2: Tribeca Film Festival. There's the Carnegie Hall like premiere, and
Speaker 2: then there's an East I have an extra ticket to
Speaker 2: one that I'm not going to go to anymore, so
Speaker 2: you can DM me as well. But there's three nights
Speaker 2: showings and by the time this airs, the tickets have
Speaker 2: been on sale honestly for a week. You're probably not
Speaker 2: getting a ticket, but know that it's happening, and maybe
Speaker 2: there are some left. And I have one, and I
Speaker 2: have one to give you for that Saturday showing.
Speaker 1: And it's called My Mom Jane is the name of
Speaker 1: this doc. Yeah, I'm excited. Cool, Yeah it is. I'm
Speaker 1: so grateful, Lacey listens. Thank you for giving me the
Speaker 1: heads up. Oh.
Speaker 2: Also, speaking of cute stuff about the camping, So I'm
Speaker 2: doing shows in Rhode Islands. Great weekend comedy connection. What
Speaker 2: a great place, thinks everyone that came out to see me.
Speaker 2: But these both late night shows. These people out of
Speaker 2: their minds. I mean, the drunkest, wildest people angry met
Speaker 2: like a bachelor party of fifty five year old bald men,
Speaker 2: every single one of them bald. I guess they were
Speaker 2: all holding each other like a tree, like they were
Speaker 2: all like kind of canoodling in the back. I guess,
Speaker 2: like I don't know what was going on, but people
Speaker 2: were out of their minds. But the Friday night, these
Speaker 2: two women who had just met are talking during my
Speaker 2: set in the front and I go, you guys, you
Speaker 2: gotta stop.
Speaker 4: This is crazy what you're doing, like.
Speaker 2: Phones out fully having a full conversation like I'm not there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And when I sit, when I stop them, they go,
Speaker 2: it's mom's stuff. It's waving me away, it's mom's stuff.
Speaker 2: I go, what are you fucking talking about? You're like,
Speaker 2: I'm out in on the conversation. I want you to stop.
Speaker 2: We're just moms. Like it was kind of like move
Speaker 2: it along, go do your thing. We're doing mom's stuff here.
Speaker 2: I mean, they were blacked out, like obviously they needed
Speaker 2: a break from their lives, but like, what are you doing?
Speaker 4: And I got so Max, I'm like, what do you mean.
Speaker 2: Mom's like, yeah, obviously I said me and stuff because
Speaker 2: I was so mad. But and then happened twice where
Speaker 2: they're like, we're just moms. Yeah, that's I'm super not shocked.
Speaker 2: I mean Rhode Island.
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't really get Rhode Island's identity, but
Speaker 1: it feels like a cousin of Massachusetts.
Speaker 2: And I ever, half the crowd was Massachusetts people from
Speaker 2: all over.
Speaker 4: They hate Delaware.
Speaker 2: People said Delaware smells, and then everyone started applauding. I
Speaker 2: mean they hate Delaware in a way I didn't. I
Speaker 2: did not know. I did not know, but and I
Speaker 2: got a DM from someone being like, oh, it's a
Speaker 2: beautiful day in New England. The crowd's about to be
Speaker 2: fairal and they were. They were right, they were, oh.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, especially you were there right as probably spring
Speaker 1: is springing, where like they've been let out of the
Speaker 1: cage after a month of being frozen.
Speaker 2: So the sevens were like polite, and then the nine
Speaker 2: thirties were just kind of.
Speaker 1: Like I hadfia to mop them off the floor. At
Speaker 1: the end, I had to just give up control.
Speaker 2: I was not gonna be in charge of my own show,
Speaker 2: and I had to kind of resign to that whoa,
Speaker 2: And that's okay too, And.
Speaker 1: Then it kind of even in and it's hard to
Speaker 1: even do crowd work with people that fucked up.
Speaker 4: Oh well they found a way. You paid?
Speaker 1: Well, you did you You talked to them, I thought
Speaker 1: to a lot of people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I talk.
Speaker 1: To a lot of about they would They probably were
Speaker 1: like whether she wants to do crowd work or not.
Speaker 2: She's talking to me. Oh oh yeah. They weren't interrupt.
Speaker 2: They don't care about timing. I mean, but whatever, Like
Speaker 2: I said, as long as you give up your uh,
Speaker 2: you know, everything you planned on performing and working.
Speaker 4: But yeah, you can have a Were.
Speaker 1: You in Providence, Providence, Rhode Island. Yeah, yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: nice town. I like Providence. I like Providence. All right,
Speaker 1: why don't we get started with today's episode. We've got
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of episode coming atcha. As always,
Speaker 1: you can go to That's messed Up live dot com
Speaker 1: for our promo codes, tour dates for Lisa, all kinds
Speaker 1: of merch ship like that.
Speaker 2: And you know I'm on the road about it, letting
Speaker 2: near you.
Speaker 4: You can even take a trip. Yeah, I was buying
Speaker 4: New Orleans tickets.
Speaker 2: I figured it out because I'm a genius, and I
Speaker 2: use miles, and I changed the date of a flight.
Speaker 2: I'm going to stand extra day whatever flights around trip
Speaker 2: main cabin. I'm talking Row twenty eight. Like everything else
Speaker 2: is sold out from New York's to New Orleans fifteen
Speaker 2: hundred dollars.
Speaker 4: Is it jazz Fest or something. I don't fucking know.
Speaker 2: I didn't even look, but and I waited a little
Speaker 2: too close to maybe too Wow, it's still three weeks
Speaker 2: ahead of time, and it was fifteen hundred dollars.
Speaker 4: But I'm a genius.
Speaker 2: Crazy I ended up being able to book my flight
Speaker 2: for twenty two thousand miles. And then I got a
Speaker 2: return on Monday because I'm staying there, like paying for
Speaker 2: my lodging, you know, And so my return I got
Speaker 2: for three hundred something dollars. So I did break the system,
Speaker 2: and I am a genius. But that's you know, you
Speaker 2: really have to play the game there. Okay, Yeah, we'll
Speaker 2: starting the episode.
Speaker 4: First, starting.
Speaker 1: Alright, alright, exciting today we are doing the episode Closet,
Speaker 1: Season nine, episode sixteen, airing back in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 1: The episode starts with some young dude like in you know,
Speaker 1: suit sweater, vest ugly shirt running into a boardroom filled
Speaker 1: with suits.
Speaker 4: He's got binders. He looks stressed.
Speaker 1: He starts typing on like what looks like a little
Speaker 1: touchscreen sidekick, like it's the one. It's like it's a
Speaker 1: touch screen, but you turn it sideways. And he's calling
Speaker 1: some guy Jeremy on the phone, going why are you late?
Speaker 1: You're gonna get your balls busted or whatever, and then
Speaker 1: a suit comes up to the young guy and goes,
Speaker 1: where's your boss? No bullshit, and he's like, Jeremy, schedule
Speaker 1: this whole dog and pony show. And I'm not canceling
Speaker 1: because he's sleeping off a bender. It's like, okay, a
Speaker 1: lot of information already. Does Jeremy have a drinking problem?
Speaker 1: What's happening? And I was wondering where the term dog
Speaker 1: and pony show came from because that doesn't sound like
Speaker 1: that exciting of a show. I mean, I like dogs
Speaker 1: and ponies, but you know, and I guess that was
Speaker 1: the main form of entertainment in rural America back in
Speaker 1: the day, and that's where the phrase came from. And
Speaker 1: now we have love is blind, so you know, anyway,
Speaker 1: this guy is pissed. This suit and he wants the
Speaker 1: young guy to like, go get Jeremy's ass in here now.
Speaker 1: So young guy shows up at Jeremy's apartment and there's
Speaker 1: an alarm going off and he's like, like a not
Speaker 1: an alarm, like a fire alarm, like a you know,
Speaker 1: radio clock alarm, and he's like, what the fuck is
Speaker 1: wrong with you?
Speaker 4: Get up? Get He like goes into the room. He
Speaker 4: sees like an arm sticking out of the bed.
Speaker 1: He's like, fuck you slept in and he pulls back
Speaker 1: the sheet like a magician revealing a trick. And then
Speaker 1: we just see his face and he looks shocked, okay,
Speaker 1: and then we hard cut to a dead guy in
Speaker 1: his pj's with his mouth gaping.
Speaker 4: Open but also weirdly smiling.
Speaker 1: It's so creepy, and Benson goes looks like he died, laughing,
Speaker 1: and Warner adds or screaming. It's like wow. Within thirty seconds,
Speaker 1: the show is so fucking creepy. And again I write,
Speaker 1: I am unclear about the mouth open, eyes open after
Speaker 1: death thing, like I don't really understand, but they do
Speaker 1: get to it.
Speaker 4: I just wrote it down.
Speaker 1: Here earlier because I was like, how come some people
Speaker 1: are like eyes wide open, and some people are eyes
Speaker 1: shut and mouth open and this and that. But there's
Speaker 1: fluids on his body, there's bruising, there's anal tearing, so
Speaker 1: there was penetration. And Stabler goes, oh, but getting raped
Speaker 1: didn't kill him. Milinda's like, no, he was asphyxiated, cause
Speaker 1: there she is our old friend Petiki. Okay, like that
Speaker 1: it should be somebody's drag name. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome
Speaker 1: to the stage, Petiki. His knuckles are also fucked up,
Speaker 1: so maybe he fought back, and the time of death
Speaker 1: is like one am. So then Stabler asks what I'm asking,
Speaker 1: why does his mouth look like that?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 1: And Melinda's like, well, he must have had an object
Speaker 1: wedged in there before rigger set in, So then whoever
Speaker 1: killed him like hung around and then yanked the ballgag
Speaker 1: out of his mouth after the body got stiff, Like
Speaker 1: that doesn't really make sense, and Melinda's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: and whoever did that also move the body. So let's
Speaker 1: talk to the assistant, Sam Edelstein, who that sounds just
Speaker 1: like a comedian we would know, but I'm sort of
Speaker 1: shocked he was an assistant based on how he was
Speaker 1: talking to the guy like in the messages, you know,
Speaker 1: like I didn't. I thought he was maybe just like
Speaker 1: a junior associate. But he's like, oh, I'm his assistant.
Speaker 1: It's like, can you call your assistant and go where
Speaker 1: your boss? And go where are you? You're gonna get
Speaker 1: your ball, like your ball, They're gonna bust your balls.
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, I didn't get the assistant vibe.
Speaker 1: But so they're all like they're all just kind of
Speaker 1: like looking at him, and Melinda goes, and he was
Speaker 1: really quick to say that he didn't touch the body,
Speaker 1: like kind of giving yourself away.
Speaker 4: You're telling on yourself, bro.
Speaker 1: And then our girl, CSU Captain Judas Ciper, friend of
Speaker 1: the pod, says she's got something. And there's a jim
Speaker 1: bag with an ID tag that says Jeremy Haynes and
Speaker 1: that bag was found stuffed down a garbage shoot down
Speaker 1: the hallway. And the bag is a real party. It's
Speaker 1: got a red leather ball gag. It's got satin restraints
Speaker 1: and chaps. Baby, so he is ready for DragCon and
Speaker 1: now we know why he was smiling, Stabler says, and
Speaker 1: Benson goes, Jeremy had himself a little treasure chest and
Speaker 1: a playdate, and then the music swells and the camera
Speaker 1: slowly zooms in on Sam the assistant, and it really
Speaker 1: really reveals this, like truly heinous shirt he's wearing under
Speaker 1: his sweater, vest and jacket, and yeah, that's that.
Speaker 4: I'm a little.
Speaker 1: Surprised to see so much kink shaming and season nine, like,
Speaker 1: I kind of thought they had progressed past that by then,
Speaker 1: but obviously not yet. No, and this is even pre
Speaker 1: Rollins and Rollins has been judgment. You know that's true, Judge, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. But so now we're at the credits, and
Speaker 1: after we come back from credits, they've got Sam in
Speaker 1: woodroom lines and they're getting the rundown from him. They're like, okay,
Speaker 1: you just found your boss cozy underneath the sheets and
Speaker 1: his jammys and he's like, m hm, that's right, and
Speaker 1: Stabler flashes him the ballgag and he denies seeing it,
Speaker 1: and Stabler tells Benson, why don't you go run it
Speaker 1: for Prince? The perp definitely touched it, and then little
Speaker 1: Sammy is spooped and he's like wait, wait, wait, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: I did it. I freaked out when I saw that
Speaker 1: thing in his mouth, I pulled it out. And then
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, and did you also like put him
Speaker 1: in the pjs And he's like, yeah, he was in
Speaker 1: the chaps when I found him. I didn't want his
Speaker 1: kink to get into the press, right cause that is
Speaker 1: the kind of thing the New York Post likes to
Speaker 1: fucking run with. You know, anybody having a little fun
Speaker 1: on a Saturday night and then ending up dead. They
Speaker 1: love to run with that. And he's like, this isn't
Speaker 1: like a gay thing. Jeremy wasn't in the closet. He
Speaker 1: was out to Like he basically says, this wasn't a
Speaker 1: gay thing, Like I wasn't trying to hide people finding
Speaker 1: out that he was gay. Jeremy wasn't in the closet.
Speaker 1: He was out to everybody he knew, Like that was
Speaker 1: no secret. It was just the kink part I was
Speaker 1: trying to hide. And he tells them that he got
Speaker 1: into the apartment with his own key, and they're like,
Speaker 1: you have your own key. It's like, yeah, he's his assistant.
Speaker 1: He house sits when he travels, like most people have that,
Speaker 1: Like I used to have access to everything of my
Speaker 1: bosses like all of his passwords, like I could have
Speaker 1: done anything. Benson and Stabler so awkwardly now are trying
Speaker 1: to go this kid into saying that he and Jeremy
Speaker 1: were fucking, but I'm not getting that vibe from him
Speaker 1: at all. And He's like, no, like we were not lovers,
Speaker 1: Like no, you're wrong, and Stabler's like painting a whole picture,
Speaker 1: like you guys.
Speaker 4: Were messing around.
Speaker 1: You choked him too hard, you set it up to
Speaker 1: be able to find the body. And then Sam's like, well,
Speaker 1: I was actually working till two am with fifteen other assistants,
Speaker 1: And it's kind of strange to me to not ask
Speaker 1: the alibi first, Like a lot of this work of
Speaker 1: you guys creating the soul story could have been shot
Speaker 1: down just by going, so where were you at one am?
Speaker 4: Oh me at the office. There's fifteen people that can
Speaker 4: corroborate it. Great.
Speaker 1: Now we don't have to like make up this story
Speaker 1: about you too, fucking like and Sam is standing strong
Speaker 1: and he's like, yeah, you can check my DNA whatever
Speaker 1: you want to do. I didn't kill him, and he's like,
Speaker 1: they tell he tells them that Jeremy was single, he
Speaker 1: worked so much he did enough time to meet guys,
Speaker 1: and he goes, wait, maybe it was one of his kids,
Speaker 1: and stablers immediately like he's a dad, and then it's like, no,
Speaker 1: not his own kids. He volunteered at a shelter for
Speaker 1: homeless gay teens last week. One of them beat him
Speaker 1: up so bad he had to miss work. Oh will Yeah,
Speaker 1: So now we're at William's house and the guy running
Speaker 1: the shelter is like, no way. The kids love Jeremy.
Speaker 1: They're good kids, he said, and their parents toss them
Speaker 1: out just because they're gay and lives like and if
Speaker 1: we run their rap sheets, they're gonna be squeaky clean.
Speaker 1: It's again, it's like Live A't season nine. You don't understand,
Speaker 1: like how like rap sheets so actually matter? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: how kids get like fully thrown onto a bus from
Speaker 1: Iowa come to a city with nothing, like what do
Speaker 1: they you know? And he's like, I'm dealing with drugs,
Speaker 1: petty theft, sex for survival. They all got records, but
Speaker 1: they're not criminals. And I love that. I'm like put
Speaker 1: that on a shirt. They all got records, but they're
Speaker 1: not criminals. They're just kids, you know, just they just
Speaker 1: want to know about the one who had beef with Jeremy,
Speaker 1: and the guy's like, wow, he's not a murderer. He's
Speaker 1: just a confused kid. His name is Freddy Ramirez, but
Speaker 1: he's not here. He works at a gym in Hell's Kitchen.
Speaker 1: When they get to the gym, they see a lady
Speaker 1: bending over showing off her hot ass, and when she
Speaker 1: pops up to say she's the manager, we recognize it
Speaker 1: is the icon Laverne Cox in one of her first
Speaker 1: acting roles ever. She of course went on to star
Speaker 1: in Oranges and New Black and Promising Young Women and
Speaker 1: inventing Anna, which I never watched but I wanted to.
Speaker 4: She's in tons of stuff.
Speaker 1: She's like a very famous actor now and transactivist. And
Speaker 1: she clocks Maloney and gives him a little per She
Speaker 1: likes what she sees. She's like, I'm canvas. And then
Speaker 1: they ask about Freddy and she's like, what did that
Speaker 1: little devil do?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 1: She thinks he has sticky fingers and steal shit from
Speaker 1: the lockers, and she'd fire him, but the members love
Speaker 1: him right, and she thinks he must have gone into
Speaker 1: a fight because he's got a big old bruise and
Speaker 1: this kid has a temper. So Sabler goes to find
Speaker 1: Freddy in the locker room, and he's doing exactly what
Speaker 1: she's worried that he's doing.
Speaker 4: She's bent over rooting through lockers.
Speaker 1: Like Sabler busts in, and like it's like you might
Speaker 1: just say, hey, you're not on locker room duty anymore,
Speaker 1: Like you just have to like mop the bathroom. I
Speaker 1: don't really know, but this kid is in there going
Speaker 1: on a little shopping spree.
Speaker 2: How I feel with my laundry girl, she is losing
Speaker 2: my items. I am getting other people's sucks, but I
Speaker 2: keep on going.
Speaker 4: The customer's lover, the customer's lover.
Speaker 1: So Stabler, you know, goes hey, Freddy or whatever, and
Speaker 1: then of course the kid runs.
Speaker 4: There's a chase, but it's short. Stabler grabs him.
Speaker 1: And this guy playing Freddy is named David del Rio,
Speaker 1: and he he had been in like a few things,
Speaker 1: but nothing I'd really heard of. But then he it
Speaker 1: seems like he has just hit his big break because
Speaker 1: he is a regular on the New mattlock Seas with
Speaker 1: Kathy Bates, so kludos to him, which people love, and
Speaker 1: his people are watching it.
Speaker 4: I don't know. They bring him into interrogation. He's being kg.
Speaker 4: He hates the cops.
Speaker 1: He tells them, oh, is that the movie with my friends?
Speaker 1: And Stabler's like, oh, what what's up with the massive
Speaker 1: bruise on your face? He truly has a huge bruise,
Speaker 1: like on his whole cheek, and he admits he got
Speaker 1: into a fight with Jeremy, and he goes, bitch, thought
Speaker 1: he was tough, and then he looks shook though when
Speaker 1: Stabler mentions that Jeremy was killed, like he did not know,
Speaker 1: and he's like, no, no, no, no, no no. This guy
Speaker 1: box to stay in shape, and I told him you
Speaker 1: ain't fought until you use your bare knuckles. So he's
Speaker 1: saying that these two fought for exercise purposes, like not
Speaker 1: in any anger. And he hasn't seen Jeremy in a
Speaker 1: few days. And Benson is on the other side of
Speaker 1: the glass watching when Melinda comes in with some interesting info.
Speaker 1: The blood found in the apartment is a match for Freddy.
Speaker 1: The semen sample found on Jeremy was mixed, probably his
Speaker 1: own Semen mixed with the purpse Semen, and she'll test
Speaker 1: it and let them know if it matches for Freddy.
Speaker 1: So now they're like, Freddie, what's up dog? Like, why
Speaker 1: was your blood in this dude's apartment? And he says,
Speaker 1: Saturday night, I was at Jeremy's place. I was hanging
Speaker 1: with him watching the Knicks because he has a sick
Speaker 1: plasma TV.
Speaker 4: And then I got like a raging nosebleed.
Speaker 1: And Stabler's like, sure you did, jan And then he
Speaker 1: says he got home before twelve and the house has
Speaker 1: a midnight curfew, so he's like, I signed in, you
Speaker 1: can check.
Speaker 4: And Stabler's like, what's up with you too?
Speaker 1: Like you and Jeremy something going on there, and Freddy's like,
Speaker 1: I tried, but Jeremy shot me down. He said I
Speaker 1: was too young. So I do stand A man who
Speaker 1: you know, keeps it, keeps age in mind. Freddie also
Speaker 1: says that Jeremy told him he was serious about someone.
Speaker 1: He said the guy traveled all the time, but that
Speaker 1: they've been together for a few years. And Benson's like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's funny. Nobody else knows about this dude, and Freddie goes, well,
Speaker 1: that guy is famous and in the closet and he's
Speaker 1: psycho about his privacy, so that's why no one's talking
Speaker 1: about him. So now Stabler and Benson are talking and
Speaker 1: they're they're like, so Jeremy and closet Boy are playing
Speaker 1: Broke Mountain. I mean they love to get in a
Speaker 1: current reference. Things get rough and Jeremy gets killed. Closet
Speaker 1: Boy splits because he can't be found in his dead
Speaker 1: gay lover's apartment. So then Chester Lake pipes up. We
Speaker 1: can't forget at season nine, we are going to get
Speaker 1: a little sprinkling of Lake in here. And he says,
Speaker 1: Freddy's alibi checks out and he's on camera out the
Speaker 1: shelter at eleven forty five, never leaving. Also, Sam, the
Speaker 1: assistant is in the clear. All the assistants he was
Speaker 1: with were like, you know, corroborated his alibi. So now
Speaker 1: we've got to find closet Guy as they're calling him,
Speaker 1: and Stabler goes, would you miss your boyfriend's funeral? And
Speaker 1: Live goes, yeah, if I was famous and in the closet,
Speaker 1: how am I going to show up crying at a
Speaker 1: gay man's grave? And then Stabler goes, make sure no
Speaker 1: one else is there to see you. So now cut
Speaker 1: to them checking out footage from a polecam, which Munch
Speaker 1: goes a CoP's best friend polecam and it's like an
Speaker 1: interesting take from the Big brother is watching you member
Speaker 1: of the squad for him to be like sweet CCTV
Speaker 1: love it, Like he seems like he'd be against that.
Speaker 1: But a guy jumps the cemetery fence at three am.
Speaker 1: It's pretty dark, they can't see his face. It looks
Speaker 1: like he's praying, and then Stabler goes, holy crap, rewind,
Speaker 1: so they stop. They do one of these impossible tech
Speaker 1: things they do on SVU where they blow it up
Speaker 1: and nothing about the image changes really or degrades at all,
Speaker 1: and no wonder he's in the closet. That's Lincoln Haver,
Speaker 1: the best quarterback in pro football. And Stabler looks like
Speaker 1: he doesn't know up from down. He literally cannot believe
Speaker 1: that a gay pro football player exists in the world.
Speaker 2: Well, you know what else, I'm thinking, So this motherfucker
Speaker 2: is working what fifteen hours a day Monday through Friday,
Speaker 2: and then during football season, I get I bet he's
Speaker 2: watching all day Sunday.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm selling him short, but I'm like, are you
Speaker 2: fucking kidding me?
Speaker 4: No, You're he's watching the yes.
Speaker 1: In the spring watch he's watching all this, but he's
Speaker 1: watching the Knicks in the winter, he's watching it all.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Calf, Yeah, yeah, sorry, Calf. Top of ac two.
Speaker 1: Finn and Lake are just two broads gossiping. They're like
Speaker 1: reading a magazine and they're like, Lincoln Haver is gay.
Speaker 1: I thought he was dating Natasha Gorski, that hot supermodel.
Speaker 1: And Jeremy must have hated seeing his man all over
Speaker 1: the rags with a gal pal, right, Stabler's like, you
Speaker 1: can't blame him for having a beard. He'd lose his
Speaker 1: career if he came out, and Lake's like, well, a
Speaker 1: bunch of players have come out, Dave Kope, Roy Simmons,
Speaker 1: Asara Tuola. And then he asked, Finn, are you related
Speaker 1: to the last guy? And Finn's like, it's Tootuola, you dumbass,
Speaker 1: Like that's so insane. It's like asking me if I'm
Speaker 1: related to someone with the last name Clark. It's kind
Speaker 1: of close, it's not the same last name, so we're
Speaker 1: not related. And then he points out something very important.
Speaker 1: All of those guys came out after they retired. At
Speaker 1: that point, there had not been an openly gay player
Speaker 1: on the field, even Michael sam who I always think
Speaker 1: of as the first openly gay player drafted into the NFL.
Speaker 1: He was drafted by the Saint Louis Rams in twenty fourteen,
Speaker 1: but he never played in a regular.
Speaker 4: Season game because because he was gay.
Speaker 1: Who's to say, but Carl Nasib who came out in
Speaker 1: June of twenty twenty one, became the first active NFL
Speaker 1: player four years ago, and he played for the Cleveland Browns,
Speaker 1: the Tampa Bay back in the years, and the Las
Speaker 1: Vegas Raiders, and he retired in twenty twenty three after
Speaker 1: seven seasons. So he played a couple seasons as an
Speaker 1: ougay man. I don't actually know if Moore have followed
Speaker 1: his in his path, like football seems one of the
Speaker 1: more agro sports to come out in, but they're like okay,
Speaker 1: So Lincoln was not in the mood to be a
Speaker 1: trailblazer or lose the bag. Finn points out that he
Speaker 1: just signed a three year contract for forty million dollars
Speaker 1: and he's a spokesperson for Power Drink, which is a
Speaker 1: funny little copyright thing. Lives like they can't fire him
Speaker 1: for being gay. He could sue and Stabler's like, no, girl,
Speaker 1: these contracts have morals clauses. They can drop him if
Speaker 1: he damages the product's reputation. And then Finn goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: like when folks start calling power Drink Pansy Drink, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, come on, power Twink was right there. Why
Speaker 1: would you not say power Twink? Like so, anyway, I
Speaker 1: don't know, hire me to wait for the show live.
Speaker 1: Does not get why it's a big deal for a
Speaker 1: football player to be gay, Like she's truly not understanding
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, how this is not still
Speaker 1: like happening, And Stabler's like, Lincoln har is my kid's hero,
Speaker 1: Like his posters are all over all these kids' walls.
Speaker 4: So it's like, okay, let's go talk to Dicky Stabler's hero.
Speaker 1: So now they're at a practice field in the Bronx
Speaker 1: where someone is literally yelling Blue twenty two, which I
Speaker 1: like associate with ace Ventura, Like I just I feel
Speaker 1: like Blue twenty two, like that feels like the only
Speaker 1: football play I would ever know in a million years,
Speaker 1: and someone's actually yelling it in the show, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. It's like somebody going hut hut hike,
Speaker 1: like it's so, it was just funny to me, and
Speaker 1: then I but I guess it's some kind of legit play.
Speaker 1: I googled it, but I couldn't understand it. Players are
Speaker 1: hitting on Benson as she walks on to the field, going,
Speaker 1: I got a cramp. You want to rub my cramp
Speaker 1: out like shit like that? And I wouldn't mind Benson
Speaker 1: having like a one night er with a pro football player.
Speaker 4: Let's let her have some fun.
Speaker 1: They approach Lincoln and he is played by the actor
Speaker 1: Bailey Chase.
Speaker 4: He's very handsome and he.
Speaker 1: Says, we're here to talk to you about Jeremy Haynes
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh yeah, he's my business manager. And
Speaker 1: they're like, well, we know he managed your penis as well,
Speaker 1: and he's like, nah, I gotta go, and he starts
Speaker 1: to walk away, and then they show him the photo
Speaker 1: that they captured somehow in the dark of him visiting
Speaker 1: a grave and he's like, okay, well, I cannot talk
Speaker 1: to you here. So they bring him to the warm
Speaker 1: hospitality of cement room bars and he's explaining that should
Speaker 1: at least be in woodblind that's crazy, I know, yeah,
Speaker 1: Like he hasn't done anything yet I don't know. I
Speaker 1: would think that NFL. You would also just like as
Speaker 1: a celebrity, you'd first get wood room blinds, you know.
Speaker 1: And he's like, listen, i'd been in a photo shoot
Speaker 1: in Miami, and that's why I went to the grave
Speaker 1: in the night.
Speaker 4: Like I didn't. I couldn't get back in time for
Speaker 4: the funeral.
Speaker 1: Whatever that look going at three am is what fit
Speaker 1: my schedule is basically what he's saying. And Benson is like, Babe,
Speaker 1: we're getting a court order for your DNA and he's like,
Speaker 1: I would never hurt Jeremy. We were friends, Stablers like
Speaker 1: you guys were lovers, like we know, and he says yeah,
Speaker 1: he basically drops it. He's like, yeah, we were going
Speaker 1: to go public, but it's not like, you know, we
Speaker 1: can just come out with it like and Stablers like yeah,
Speaker 1: because you'd be kicked out of football. And Lincoln's like,
Speaker 1: I've been playing the game since I was six. The
Speaker 1: game is my life. If I had to choose, though,
Speaker 1: I would choose Jeremy. And the night he was murdered,
Speaker 1: where was Lincoln? And he goes with Jeremy. I had
Speaker 1: dinner with Jeremy and my agent and Natasha, and he goes.
Speaker 1: They go, you had a date with your boyfriend and
Speaker 1: your girlfriend. That's ballsy, and they're like, well, my agent
Speaker 1: hooked me up with her, and Jeremy was kind of
Speaker 1: tired of all the games. Lincoln wanted to just do
Speaker 1: one more season. He's like, I just wanted one more
Speaker 1: shot at a championship ring. And after dinner, Natasha took
Speaker 1: him for a few drinks at some hot new club.
Speaker 1: He doesn't remember which one because he was wasted, and
Speaker 1: all he knows is that he went home with Natasha.
Speaker 1: Cut to Natasha, okay, and she's like, yeah, I wish
Speaker 1: he hadn't come home with me. That night sucked and
Speaker 1: he never spends the night. She goes, Link's a hit
Speaker 1: and run kind of guy, Team Curfew, Early Flight, et cetera.
Speaker 1: He's always making something up. And she's like, my publicists
Speaker 1: pushed him on me. I don't know I'd be dating
Speaker 1: his agent and teammates and business manager. If he'd rather
Speaker 1: screw around with boys, that's fine with me. And then
Speaker 1: Benson goes, so you knew about him and Jeremy, and
Speaker 1: Natasha's like, knew what? And uh oh, Benson just made
Speaker 1: a booboo. Natasha did not know, and then.
Speaker 2: She should have lied faster, like I'm sorry, Benson, I'm
Speaker 2: like so disappointed at her that she couldn't, like come.
Speaker 4: Up with a fast lie.
Speaker 1: You guys are undercover, pretending to be Russian cleaning ladies,
Speaker 1: pretending to be people adopting babies. You can't like come
Speaker 1: up with a quick lie, like or get yourself out
Speaker 1: of it really fast, like come on.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was really upset. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So this is a big plot point of the episode
Speaker 1: that Benson basically lets this shit slip and Natasha's like
Speaker 1: they were not fucking and then she's like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: she's just finding this out. Thank you Benson force billing,
Speaker 1: and Natasha's like that explains everything. There's nothing wrong with
Speaker 1: these girls, referring to her tits just girls.
Speaker 4: She runs over to her bag and grabs her phone.
Speaker 1: She calls a friend named Shanad, does not wait for
Speaker 1: it to ring, She just picks it up and goes
Speaker 1: Shanade and she's about to blab, and Stabler grabs her
Speaker 1: phone and is like, don't ruin Dickie's hero, Like, don't
Speaker 1: you know, please, don't ruin Dickie's hero. You know, And
Speaker 1: Natasha is pissed. She's like, he used me, and she
Speaker 1: calls him you.
Speaker 4: Know him too, that was the only reason you were
Speaker 4: with him is to use him.
Speaker 1: If it's a publicist connected relationship, then you're both it's
Speaker 1: a mutual user, and you should assume he's gay. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And she's like, she calls him a three letter slur
Speaker 1: for a gay man. And then Benson tries to go
Speaker 1: her to chill and she's freaking out that maybe he
Speaker 1: gave her aids like she does not seem like a
Speaker 1: very evolved person and lives like you can get that
Speaker 1: from anyone.
Speaker 4: Actually, did you two use a condom?
Speaker 1: And then she's like, get out of here, and she
Speaker 1: finishes the condom with her friend, who I guess has
Speaker 1: been on hold this whole time, called the.
Speaker 2: Condom it's been it was really funny. We're leaving it in.
Speaker 2: What did I call it a condom? You said, Oh,
Speaker 2: she gets back on the condom.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she hops back on the condom.
Speaker 4: No, I was reading. I get back on the condom.
Speaker 1: So she finishes her convo pardon me, with her friend
Speaker 1: who's been on hold the whole time, and she's like Shanade,
Speaker 1: he's a homo.
Speaker 4: Link is an ass bands.
Speaker 2: I love that They were like, what should we call
Speaker 2: her Shanade? Like it's also such a wild name. Yeah, yeah, completely.
Speaker 2: She's telling Shanaid that Link is a homo. She goes,
Speaker 2: Link is an ass Bandit can you believe it?
Speaker 1: It's like wild, like the word she's using, and she
Speaker 1: tells them she goes right before they leave, she goes
Speaker 1: check in with Gary Leslie, his agent.
Speaker 4: My ex boyfriend is going to need a new job.
Speaker 1: And then cut to them talking to Gary Leslie and
Speaker 1: now he is played by Rick Hoffman, who I recognize
Speaker 1: as one of the main dudes from Suits. I think
Speaker 1: that's this guy's claim to fame is that he's like
Speaker 1: the guy from Suits, right.
Speaker 4: Oh, I know him. He's a commercial actor. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a great actor, this guy. Oh really yeah,
Speaker 1: I think he's very good. And he talks about well,
Speaker 1: Natasha was on a rampage, but I shut her up
Speaker 1: and he promised her the cover of the swimsuit is
Speaker 1: shoe and got her friend Shanade on the view. Who
Speaker 1: is Shanade? We're talking about Shanade so much, like that's
Speaker 1: the thing. You're right, they picked Shanade Like if you
Speaker 1: would picked the name like Lindsay, we would have been like,
Speaker 1: oh is she friends with Lindsay Lohan?
Speaker 4: Like it could be vague, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: But instead it's like shanade O Connor's the only famous one,
Speaker 1: So what are you talking about?
Speaker 2: But also, like I understand the view that's like a
Speaker 2: quick favor, Like you know it's just promo stuff, but
Speaker 2: you're telling me you could just favor your way into
Speaker 2: the cover of Sports Illustrated. That must be like, like
Speaker 2: I understand if it's to be in the Sports Illustrated, Like, oh,
Speaker 2: we'll give you this feature. I have this client, can
Speaker 2: you do this for me? Like they all know each other,
Speaker 2: but the cover just.
Speaker 1: But this guy reps so many he probably reps so
Speaker 1: many sports guys that he's like, get her on the cover.
Speaker 1: I'll give you exclusives after the super Bowl with my guys,
Speaker 1: all these got you know what I mean, Like maybe
Speaker 1: it was that kind of deal. I just think it's
Speaker 1: what he made with Sports Illustrated.
Speaker 2: I know. I just think it's such a big deal.
Speaker 2: And there's usually like an intention behind the cover model
Speaker 2: and like they're trying to tell a story, you know,
Speaker 2: not to get and not to make bring more depth
Speaker 2: into something that might not have it. But I just
Speaker 2: am like any favorite, they must have some sort of
Speaker 2: integrity or like, yeah, I guess we won't have Heidi Clume.
Speaker 2: Sure we'll take this bitch like what yeah, and no offense.
Speaker 2: She doesn't look like a sport like she doesn't. That's
Speaker 2: not the vibe I even got from her.
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: I didn't get the sexiest model to ever live that
Speaker 2: like met will appeal to men and women and sell
Speaker 2: these magazines. I was like, okay, so she's like an
Speaker 2: actress on the CW. Like that's what I got, which
Speaker 2: you have to be very hot to do too. No,
Speaker 2: no knocking this woman, but like Sports insane, it's like Padma.
Speaker 1: So the cover of the Sports Illustrated magazine in two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, the year that this episode came out,
Speaker 1: is that right, was it eight?
Speaker 4: Two thousand and eight? Okay?
Speaker 1: The cover of the swim Sports Illustrated Swimsuit is she
Speaker 1: from two thousand and eight?
Speaker 4: Is Marissa Miller?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean this is what I mean. Like she
Speaker 4: was so fucking famous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, at the time I saw her face fucking everywhere
Speaker 2: that this bitch is not her.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: So anyway, the lawyer, Gary Leslie is like, are you
Speaker 1: sure this isn't some kind of mix up, and they're like, no,
Speaker 1: Lincoln told us he was gay, and Gary's like, I
Speaker 1: can't believe it. The guy's a chick magnet. I get
Speaker 1: laid just being out with him. And he wants to
Speaker 1: know how Natasha found out, and Benson confesses like, well,
Speaker 1: I kind of made an oopsie, like I just you know,
Speaker 1: let it slip. And they asked if he thinks Lincoln
Speaker 1: is capable of murder, and he's like, no way, he's
Speaker 1: a teddy bear off the field.
Speaker 4: He doesn't have it in and to kill.
Speaker 1: So now we're at Melinda's house and she's got the
Speaker 1: lowdown on the jizz as usual, Lincoln Semen was on
Speaker 1: Jeremy's carpet and on Jeremy and this carpet Semen could
Speaker 1: be old, but the Jeremy fluids were fresh, and they
Speaker 1: want to know if it's possible that he may be
Speaker 1: choked on the ballgag during sex, and Melinda's like, that's
Speaker 1: what the killer wanted you to think. But she thinks
Speaker 1: the ballgag was inserted post mortem. This guy's Jeremy's hyoid
Speaker 1: bone was broken, which means he was strangled with something
Speaker 1: and it was definitely something cylindrical and it left a
Speaker 1: diamond pattern on like under his skin. So like a bar,
Speaker 1: a dumbbell bar is what they're narrowing the weapon down
Speaker 1: to be. And Lincoln says that his set was short.
Speaker 1: One bar in his house. That's what CSU said, So
Speaker 1: they think Lincoln must have taken the bar with him
Speaker 1: after he killed him, and that's enough for a search
Speaker 1: warrant of his house. Now they're at Har's apartment building
Speaker 1: trying to get this nerd at the front desk to
Speaker 1: let them in, and then suddenly they're smashing glass. We
Speaker 1: hear try running to daddy F word slur and we
Speaker 1: see Lincoln outside the building getting his ass beat by
Speaker 1: these guys and then a bunch of guys run away.
Speaker 1: Stablor chases them, but he's too slow, and Live calls
Speaker 1: a bus for Lincoln and goes his secrets out in
Speaker 1: the hospital. Now, Benson is telling Lincoln like wow, like
Speaker 1: your skull is fractured, and like do you remember anything.
Speaker 1: He's like, well, I was walking home I hurt a
Speaker 1: car and then I heard a guy yell the F word,
Speaker 1: and then something hit his head. He tried fighting them,
Speaker 1: but there was too many of them. He couldn't get
Speaker 1: a look at any of their faces, and then he
Speaker 1: kind of passes out. While he's talking to Benson, Sailor
Speaker 1: gets a call from Finn saying there was no weapon
Speaker 1: found at Lincoln's house. Saylor says, well, we should hand
Speaker 1: off the gay bashing Tobias crimes and then we can
Speaker 1: work the homicide. And then Gary Leslie, the agent, walks
Speaker 1: in right as they're walking out, and sarcastically goes, oh, hey,
Speaker 1: good job, detectives, and he's like, I'm filing charges against
Speaker 1: you both individually and against NYP for outing Link and
Speaker 1: getting him attacked. Hours later, apparently someone linked this entire
Speaker 1: thing to a shock jock named Sportsman Larry, who told
Speaker 1: five million listeners that Link is a big flaming F word.
Speaker 1: They are using the F word so much in this episode,
Speaker 1: and whenever I'm saying word, they're using the full word.
Speaker 4: Just keep that in mind.
Speaker 1: And Gary thinks the cops leaked it, and suddenly there's
Speaker 1: beeps and boops and Lincoln is crashing and everyone gets
Speaker 1: kicked out of the room. In the next scene, Benson
Speaker 1: and Stable are listening to Sportsman Larry on the radio
Speaker 1: talking about sissy's in sports and he sounds like a
Speaker 1: real asshole, and he his voice by the late great
Speaker 1: Richard Lewis. He does not appear on the episode, but
Speaker 1: his voice is Sportsman Larry, and I think that's kind
Speaker 1: of funny Rip also known as like Larry David's Besty
Speaker 1: from Curb. He's joking about how football is America's game
Speaker 1: and there's no place for gays in the game. He
Speaker 1: says Lincoln Haver should have been a cheerleader if he
Speaker 1: wants to be back in the game. It's really a
Speaker 1: lot of a regard talk. And back in the precinct,
Speaker 1: Dad's mad. Craigan is like what did you two do?
Speaker 1: They're like, now, what you think? And he's like, well
Speaker 1: tell that to the gay rights group picketing one PP
Speaker 1: and Stabler's like, well, I mean, at least there's somebody
Speaker 1: from the other side picketing, because so far it's just
Speaker 1: been hate attacks and Sportsman Larry and Stabler's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we didn't talk to Sportsman Larry, Like we both honestly
Speaker 1: worked here for a decade. Did you think we went
Speaker 1: to sportsman Larry for a leak? And it's stable. I'm like,
Speaker 1: Stabler is Catholic, but I don't see him spilling to
Speaker 1: a homophobic shock jock, Like that's not what I really
Speaker 1: see as his mo. But the bad news keeps coming.
Speaker 1: IAB is now investigating Benson and Stabler about this, and
Speaker 1: Lincoln haveaer is in a coma live you're first up
Speaker 1: to talk to IAB. So now she's chatting with her
Speaker 1: future boyfriend and friend of the pod, Bobby Burke aka
Speaker 1: Ed Tucker, And in the past five days she's called
Speaker 1: this one number twelve times. He points out it's the
Speaker 1: number for Kurt Moss, a guy who works at The Ledger.
Speaker 1: And the if you'll remember, as we always talk about,
Speaker 1: is basically their cover for The New York Post, which
Speaker 1: is a rag. I mean, like there's some factual news
Speaker 1: in it. I guess it's where page six is, but
Speaker 1: it's a lot of sensational, really really rude headlines and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. He doesn't get. But I think they
Speaker 1: also hate Trump, and they do a lot. They try
Speaker 1: to make Trump look stupid all the time, which I
Speaker 1: kind of like, so, I don't know there. My sister
Speaker 1: dated a guy who exclusively read the New York Post,
Speaker 1: and I was like, he's dumb, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: if that's like the one paper that you're buying, Uh,
Speaker 1: yeah you can't.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's not her husband. Don't worry. She got out. No,
Speaker 4: I know, she's an educator. I know, I know. She
Speaker 4: was like, well, I don't really read any newspapers.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, you're getting news from other places, but
Speaker 1: to just pick up the New York Post and read
Speaker 1: it every day is kind of insane. So Tucker doesn't
Speaker 1: understand why she's calling a newspaper editor at ten pm,
Speaker 1: and Benson is like, well, it had nothing to do
Speaker 1: with Lincoln Haber, and Tucker is not buying it. He
Speaker 1: thinks she tipped off Moss, and Benson is denying it,
Speaker 1: saying the gossip columnist must have listened to sportsman Larry.
Speaker 1: But Tucker's got news. The paper went to press before
Speaker 1: the Larry broadcasts, and Tucker's yeah, babah. So Tucker's like, so,
Speaker 1: why did you call Moss? And Benson finally gives up.
Speaker 1: She's like, we've been dating, and he's like who knows
Speaker 1: about this? And she's like nobody, and Tucker goes, so
Speaker 1: you're creating this fictional booty call to save your own ass.
Speaker 1: I mean, he really did used to be such a
Speaker 1: dick back in the day. Okay, Tucker, if she was
Speaker 1: leaking a story, I hardly think twelve phone calls would
Speaker 1: be necessary, Like doesn't twelve phone calls feel more inconducive
Speaker 1: to dating than like one more detail and calling twelve times.
Speaker 1: So she goes, he's my boyfriend and Tucker goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're his source. So Benson comes storming into the
Speaker 1: pen at the precinct and he's like, well, Tucker took
Speaker 1: my badge and shield and they're like why he and
Speaker 1: she goes ask him and Tucker goes, she's suspended with
Speaker 1: pay while we investigate, and Stabler goes, you're a son
Speaker 1: of a bitch, and Tucker goes, your partner has been
Speaker 1: sleeping with an editor at the Ledger, Like I just wrote,
Speaker 1: like okay, live, it's okay to fuck a journalist, but
Speaker 1: the Ledguer is trash, Like come on, girl, respect yourself,
Speaker 1: Like you could fuck someone at the New Yorker, Like
Speaker 1: you really could, like you're Olivia Benson. You're gorgeous, you're talented,
Speaker 1: you're smart. You don't need to be fucking Ledger reporters.
Speaker 1: And Stabler you can tell his eyes are a little shocked.
Speaker 1: He does not believe it. He's like, she's aiding someone
Speaker 1: I don't know about it. She's dating a guy from
Speaker 1: the Ledger, Like.
Speaker 4: What the fuck?
Speaker 1: And Tucker's like, oh, I guess you don't know her
Speaker 1: that well. And Stabler says, I know she'd never torpedo
Speaker 1: a case. And Tucker's like, well, sorry, but you didn't
Speaker 1: even know she was screwing the paper boy, so I
Speaker 1: guess you just don't know where that well. And this
Speaker 1: whole conversation is an hr nightmare, like I can't believe
Speaker 1: that actually IAB is involved in this conversation using the
Speaker 1: phrase like screwing the paper boy. Craigan asked Stabler where
Speaker 1: he's going, and Stabler's like, you know where I'm going.
Speaker 1: So now we're at the office of the New York Ledger.
Speaker 1: Stabler shows up in the office of Kurt Moss and
Speaker 1: look who it is. It's Bill Pullman, star of Independence
Speaker 1: Day While you were sleeping and the Sinner on USA
Speaker 1: and a million other movies. Like, I mean, he's a
Speaker 1: true nineties movie star.
Speaker 4: I would say, like he was in so much stuff.
Speaker 2: I'm glad you said while you were sleeping that's one
Speaker 2: of Yeah, that's a Trager family favorite.
Speaker 4: And is the guy in the Koma not Daddy Dodds.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: So Daddy Dodds is in the coma of Sandra Bullock
Speaker 1: falls in Love with Bill Pullman worth watching if you
Speaker 1: haven't seen it.
Speaker 2: Great, great fos and the Parents. It's a lot of
Speaker 2: old actors that are funny.
Speaker 1: It's like, good, yeah, and I love Sandra Bullock and
Speaker 1: kind of anything, so I think it's fun. And he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you must be Elliott. Olivia has a picture of you
Speaker 1: in her living room, so okay, this is not a leak.
Speaker 1: They are dating. He's been the living room, he's seen
Speaker 1: the photo. She has a frame photo of her her
Speaker 1: and Elliot.
Speaker 4: Interesting.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 4: Staylor does not want any of this small talk.
Speaker 1: He's like, Benson's been suspended because they think she leaked
Speaker 1: the Lincoln Haber story to you, and Stabler goes, who
Speaker 1: gave you the story? And he's like, come on, you
Speaker 1: know I would die for my sources and like, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna make my columnists that wrote this name there's sorry,
Speaker 1: And he's like, so you're just gonna like throw Live
Speaker 1: under the bus, and Moss is like, you two have
Speaker 1: worked together for a long time. There must be a
Speaker 1: reason she didn't tell you about me, and Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: her life is her business. I'm here to save her job,
Speaker 1: and you need to tell IAB that Live isn't the leak.
Speaker 1: And then Benson shows up and she's confused, like why
Speaker 1: are you here, Stabler and she goes, well, I'm trying
Speaker 1: to get your boyfriend to give you a hand. And
Speaker 1: she goes, I don't need help from either of you,
Speaker 1: and Moss is like, I think you do. I can
Speaker 1: sign an an affidavit saying that you're not the source,
Speaker 1: and Lives like it's not gonna be enough.
Speaker 4: They need a warm body.
Speaker 1: They want someone to pin this on, and Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've got some shit on the NYPD. Just
Speaker 1: remind IAB to stay on your good side. So Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: for my girl, do whatever you can literally hold blackmail
Speaker 1: the NYPD as much as you want. Just get Live
Speaker 1: her shield back Moss is like, I'll talk to them,
Speaker 1: and then Stabler goes nice meeting you and walks out.
Speaker 4: There's tension.
Speaker 1: There's tension, and Moss asks live, why didn't you tell
Speaker 1: me you were in trouble. She's like, I can handle it,
Speaker 1: and he's like, yeah, you like you don't let anyone in,
Speaker 1: Like you're not letting me in. And she goes, this
Speaker 1: isn't about us, and he goes, if you say so,
Speaker 1: and then he goes like, why won't you move in
Speaker 1: with me? It's a perfect time to talk about it,
Speaker 1: Like she's just been suspended at work, and he's like,
Speaker 1: what's up with the moving in? And she sighs and
Speaker 1: she goes, I gotta go, and he goes, I'll call
Speaker 1: iab and then she whispers thanks.
Speaker 4: He grabs her.
Speaker 1: They have a moment they do like a dry side
Speaker 1: lip kiss that's pretty unsexy, like they're not like there's
Speaker 1: a cute vibe between them. But then the kiss is
Speaker 1: like it's very dry, it's not full mouth on mouth,
Speaker 1: it's closed mouth and to the side. So and that's it.
Speaker 1: That's all we get of Bill Pullman in SVU history.
Speaker 1: He agreed to do one scene and that's it. But
Speaker 1: in the next scene, liv is walking into the precinct
Speaker 1: to tell Stabler, hey, it worked, I'm unsuspended, and she
Speaker 1: apologizes to Stabler for not telling him about Moss and
Speaker 1: he's like, hey, I'm glad. I'm just glad you have someone,
Speaker 1: and but she he goes, I mean you could have
Speaker 1: said something, and she goes, I just wasn't ready, and
Speaker 1: then Craigan walks in and boom, Lincoln is out of
Speaker 1: his coma and one PP wants.
Speaker 4: His ass locked up.
Speaker 1: Stabler's like, yesterday he was a victim and we're getting grilled,
Speaker 1: and Craigan says, yeah, and today the media is all
Speaker 1: over it and the BRAS doesn't want him geting special
Speaker 1: treatment for being gay or a football player. I don't
Speaker 1: think he was really getting special treatment for being gay
Speaker 1: at that time. At the hospital, they're talking to Lincoln
Speaker 1: all those years worried about my future, that if people
Speaker 1: found out I was gay, it would wreck my life
Speaker 1: and lives like, I'm so sorry I outed you, like
Speaker 1: she apologizes, and he says it was bound to happen,
Speaker 1: and he leads on Jeremy's killer and they're like, ooh, awkward,
Speaker 1: we are here to arrest you, sir. A Stabler starts
Speaker 1: to mirandize him and he's like huh so back in
Speaker 1: cement room bars, Lincoln is like, I told you I
Speaker 1: was with Natasha that night, and they're like, yeah, but
Speaker 1: she kicked you out because you couldn't get it up.
Speaker 1: And then he's like, they're like, so you probably went
Speaker 1: to Jeremi's for a little TLC. We found your DNA
Speaker 1: on his box, and he's like, I do remember going
Speaker 1: to his apartment, but it's a blur, like I was drunk.
Speaker 1: And Stabler's like breathing down Lincoln's neck like he is
Speaker 1: whispering his questions. It's like a lot like this is
Speaker 1: very like gay coated, just the way he's like talking
Speaker 1: to this hot gay football player, and Stabler's just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: then things got a little bit crazy, huh and maybe
Speaker 1: you woke up and like yeah, so he's like, so
Speaker 1: you woke up Jeremy, he smelled Natasha's perfume. They you
Speaker 1: fought Jeremy died and Lincoln's like, oh fuck, what did
Speaker 1: I do? And they're like you try to cover it up,
Speaker 1: make it look like an accident, and Lincoln's like, I
Speaker 1: didn't want to hurt him.
Speaker 4: I loved him.
Speaker 1: So now we're in court and Lincoln is being arraigned
Speaker 1: for murder in the second degree and his lawyer is
Speaker 1: played by Rebecca balth this friend of the pod, Beverly DiAngelo.
Speaker 1: She enters a lot of people we've had on the
Speaker 1: podcast in this episode. It's very exciting. She enters a
Speaker 1: plea of mine and I also forget about everyone.
Speaker 2: So while watching this, I was like, damn, we talked
Speaker 2: to Beverly DeAngelo.
Speaker 4: What the fuck?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's crazy and Bobby Burke like all these
Speaker 1: people in this episode we've chat even Judith ciper our
Speaker 1: CSU Captain and Casey wants two million for bail and
Speaker 1: the lawyer is like, he's he's rich, but not a
Speaker 1: flight risk.
Speaker 4: For God's sake. He just woke up from a coma.
Speaker 1: And the judge says, you have my sympathy and I'll
Speaker 1: have your passport.
Speaker 4: Bail is one million. I like that.
Speaker 1: Casey is chasing Rebecca, being like, girl, we've got a
Speaker 1: rock solid case. You've got nothing, and Rebecca's like, Lincoln
Speaker 1: doesn't even know what happened, he's confused, and she's like, oh,
Speaker 1: he confused murder with a little slap and tickle. That's
Speaker 1: what Casey says, and Rebecca goes, oh, go for it, Casey,
Speaker 1: make fun of a guy with a brain injury. The
Speaker 1: jury's gonna love that, and Casey's like, no, jury is
Speaker 1: buying what you're selling.
Speaker 4: And then she hands a.
Speaker 1: Motion to Casey and Casey goes, football made him do it.
Speaker 1: That's almost as good as the Twinkie defense, which they've
Speaker 1: said in other episodes. We love talking about the twinkie defense.
Speaker 1: Rebecca says, Nope, it's even better. Now they're in judge's
Speaker 1: chambers and Rebecca arguing that Lincoln has had eight concussions
Speaker 1: and repeated head trauma that has irreparably damaged his brain.
Speaker 1: Casey's like, well, other athletes have head trauma and don't
Speaker 1: commit murder. And it's like, yeah, Casey, but a lot
Speaker 1: of them, you know, like not all, but a good
Speaker 1: healthy portion of them commit crimes. And she says Lincoln
Speaker 1: has dementia and they're like, definitively, and she goes, well,
Speaker 1: definitively only on autopsy, which is unfortunately the bad part
Speaker 1: about CT.
Speaker 4: You can't find out until you slice someone's brain open.
Speaker 1: Really. Yeah, that's like they don't know anybody has like
Speaker 1: CTE or like that kind of dementia, like I think
Speaker 1: until they fully cut their brains open in autopsy.
Speaker 4: I didn't know that. Yeah. So then it's like, then
Speaker 4: you can't really sue the NFL because you're dead.
Speaker 1: But he the judge is like okay, and then she's like, well,
Speaker 1: the detectives ignored his head trauma when they questioned him,
Speaker 1: and Casey's like, there's no proof he's impaired, and the
Speaker 1: judge goes, well, there's no proof he isn't, so have
Speaker 1: your guy examine him. Obviously, we're at the neuropsych lab.
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever noticed that card before.
Speaker 4: What's that? It's just Huang.
Speaker 1: It's it's Huang's little lab of like different connected dots,
Speaker 1: like neurological tests that he puts people through.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 1: So Huang is questioning Lincoln about his headaches, which he
Speaker 1: says sometimes he has them every day. It's like his
Speaker 1: head is in a vice. It feels like he's getting
Speaker 1: stabbed in the eye. He tells him to memorize the
Speaker 1: words house, pencil, and green. Memorize those, and then he
Speaker 1: asks him a bunch of personal questions and he runs
Speaker 1: all these cognitive tests, like while Lincoln's like connecting like
Speaker 1: different like blue balls to different things or whatever.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: All I'm remembering are like these little blue circles connected
Speaker 1: by lines that he's doing in one of his cognitive tests.
Speaker 1: And he asks him a question and then he goes,
Speaker 1: what are the three words? And Lincoln goes, pencil boat
Speaker 1: And he can't even guess the third word. Okay, so
Speaker 1: it was house, pencil green, it was not boat, So
Speaker 1: he only got one word. And then he goes, that's crazy.
Speaker 1: Why can't I remember that? And you know that this
Speaker 1: makes me think of being a stoner.
Speaker 2: And you know Marsha's also the stoner like me, and
Speaker 2: I decided after this weekend that I can't hang out
Speaker 2: with her anymore. We make the same mistakes. It's like
Speaker 2: it was crazy. And so we're like at my apartment,
Speaker 2: I'm grabbing a raincoat. We know it's gonna rain. We're
Speaker 2: headed to a protest, like we know it, we're raincoat,
Speaker 2: We're gonna do all this stuff. We both didn't bring
Speaker 2: an umbrella. Discussing the rain for twenty minutes as I
Speaker 2: like get my raincoat, everything going.
Speaker 4: We're like getting port no umbrella, we didn't bring one.
Speaker 4: Umbrellas are by the door.
Speaker 2: She's like which way? Like we were both just like
Speaker 2: out of control. We walked on the wrong train platform
Speaker 2: and then we missed the train, and I go, god,
Speaker 2: we cannot go anywhere together.
Speaker 1: Me Julia as a chaperone. If the two of you
Speaker 1: are going to be there, it's got to be Julia
Speaker 1: as a chap We got on the wrong platform, Like,
Speaker 1: we just kept fucking up the wrong platform.
Speaker 4: You've been living in New York.
Speaker 2: Result, we ran because we saw the train arrive, and
Speaker 2: so we like ran and I go, this is fucking downtown.
Speaker 1: And then we had a run up and we missed it.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, hilarious. It was really it was just silly.
Speaker 1: It was silly. I was like, we're we should not
Speaker 1: be allowed out together.
Speaker 4: A feminist cheech and Chong perhaps pitch it im a.
Speaker 1: Text savior text figure because we both have currently hair too.
Speaker 4: That's funny.
Speaker 1: So Lincoln is basically like, fuck why I can't remember anything?
Speaker 4: And then Huang Go's reporting back to the Gang.
Speaker 1: Huang's like, Okay, his immediate and long term memory are fine,
Speaker 1: but short term is impaired, not from the beating. He
Speaker 1: has lesions on his brain that he shows them from
Speaker 1: like an MRI, and there's evidence he.
Speaker 4: Has a seizure disorder.
Speaker 1: But his last concussion was last year, because Stabler remembers
Speaker 1: exactly when he got clotheslined last and it was like
Speaker 1: a game against Denver in the previous September. And he's like, well,
Speaker 1: he couldn't have had a seizure of the night of
Speaker 1: the murder because the seizures usually occur within forty eight
Speaker 1: hours of the injury, so the brain damage defense is out,
Speaker 1: and he's like, no, repeated head drama can cause memory loss, depression,
Speaker 1: and Alzheimer's like dementia, and it's very common in boxers, hockey,
Speaker 1: and football players. Like when I was growing up, my
Speaker 1: dad told my brothers none of them could play football,
Speaker 1: none of them were allowed to play football. I'm okay
Speaker 1: with that, Like that was like a rule, you know,
Speaker 1: and I kind of get it. There is a chance
Speaker 1: that he's not responsible for his actions, is what Huang decides.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 1: So now in court, Rebecca is questioning Lincoln about what
Speaker 1: happened when he gets knocked out on the field, like
Speaker 1: what does that feel like? And he's like, I get headaches,
Speaker 1: I'm dizzy, I'm sensitive to light, I'm forgetful. And then
Speaker 1: they're like for example, and he goes, well, like recently,
Speaker 1: I got my mom seats to a game, and when
Speaker 1: she didn't show up, my mom told me that I
Speaker 1: had called her screaming that she's a jinx and I
Speaker 1: told her not to come.
Speaker 4: And he's like, I love my mom. I don't know
Speaker 4: why I did that, and he.
Speaker 1: Doesn't remember doing it, and Casey's like, okay, it's my turn.
Speaker 1: You confess to murdering Jeremy and he goes I was confused.
Speaker 1: I remember we argued, but I never hit him. And
Speaker 1: no Vak corners him about how football was his life
Speaker 1: and Jeremy pushed him to come out and you didn't
Speaker 1: want your secret exposed, and Lincoln's like, I didn't care.
Speaker 4: Jeremy came first. That's why I married him. Dunked on.
Speaker 1: They're married in Canada a private ceremony and he has
Speaker 1: the license.
Speaker 4: It doesn't mean that much. I guess, like, is he Canadian?
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like at that point, if you're not
Speaker 1: married in the US, I don't know if it it's
Speaker 1: kind of like a fun little thing to drop, but
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's you know, all right, So
Speaker 1: now Novak is pissed. She's walking with Benson and Stabler
Speaker 1: and she goes, how did you miss his big fat
Speaker 1: gay wedding? And Stabler is like, well, Stabler very rightfully goes,
Speaker 1: what is being married? Prove men kill their wives all
Speaker 1: the time, and it's very true, like if this show
Speaker 1: tells us nothing else, that being married does not change
Speaker 1: anything in the story. It makes you more likely to
Speaker 1: be the person that killed someone. And she's like, no, he.
Speaker 4: Has funny who would do that to their daughter? And
Speaker 4: it's like a lot of people, a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Novaka's like, well no, now he's sympathetic, like he was
Speaker 1: gay bashed and he almost died, and like it does
Speaker 1: it does kind of change things from oh they were
Speaker 1: just shady undercover gay lovers who they had an actual
Speaker 1: wedding ceremony and they are in love and like life partners, right, Like,
Speaker 1: I guess that could change things for some of the jurors.
Speaker 1: And so he's like, Casey's like the women on the
Speaker 1: panel love him, they want to make him all better.
Speaker 1: Casey doesn't know how to rebut this whole setup and
Speaker 1: plus now Lincoln is a grieving widower, and Craigan goes,
Speaker 1: good question, and also Elliot's being called by the defense.
Speaker 4: Uh oh.
Speaker 1: Rebecca is now questioning Stabler on the stand and goes,
Speaker 1: did Lincoln seem confused or anything? And Stabler's like nope,
Speaker 1: and She's like, huh really hours after a coma?
Speaker 4: Just all good?
Speaker 1: And she goes, didn't you supply my client with most
Speaker 1: of the details that were found in his confession? You
Speaker 1: bullied him and coerced him, And stablesh playing it cool,
Speaker 1: like no, we discussed what happened calmly. And then Rebecca goes,
Speaker 1: he was fresh out of a coma and would have
Speaker 1: confessed to killing Kennedy And Stable's like, well, he definitely
Speaker 1: didn't do that, and Rebecca's like, he had brain damage
Speaker 1: and your psychiatrist said so, And Stabler said, I've watched
Speaker 1: Lincoln play for years. He's violent and aggressive. Are quarterbacks
Speaker 1: usually violent? I always think of them as like the
Speaker 1: guys that just kind of throw the ball and other
Speaker 1: guys have to protect the quarterback.
Speaker 4: I don't know football very well. You know, you know it,
Speaker 4: you're a new football girl.
Speaker 1: So I don't really think of QB's as being the
Speaker 1: guys that are like the real violent guys, but right,
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: Know, You're right, they're the ones getting sacked and hit
Speaker 2: and like bullied or protected. They're like the little golden boys.
Speaker 2: They're the dorks of the team. If anything, they're usually
Speaker 2: the hot the hot dorks.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I never think of Tom Brady as being like like
Speaker 1: a violent but they are.
Speaker 4: You know, he is, He's like, he is so agro.
Speaker 2: He's very much he doesn't eat tomatoes like he's that's true.
Speaker 4: If you don't eat night shades, you're gonna be a jerk.
Speaker 2: He's just he's just someone that like winning over Ever,
Speaker 2: I think aggression and competitive spirit are obviously different too.
Speaker 2: I think quarterbacks are like obviously very hard working, very competitive.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, so like but I don't know
Speaker 2: if competitiveness equals aggression or not. But I don't even
Speaker 2: know if it's position based, because like you could still
Speaker 2: like hit your helmet or be mad or like have
Speaker 2: a tantrum, you know, Like I don't know.
Speaker 4: Also if you have.
Speaker 1: Brain damage that can cause aggression, you know, so like
Speaker 1: that's all part of it like, but Rebecca says, you're
Speaker 1: stereotyping him because he's a football player. He is not
Speaker 1: a killer. And then Casey asks for recess. She wants
Speaker 1: to bring in a TV to show footage of Lincoln playing,
Speaker 1: and Rebecca's like objection, and they're like, you open the
Speaker 1: door when you brought up Stabler's bias. Now we have
Speaker 1: to watch footage of him playing to show that he's violent,
Speaker 1: and Casey and the judge is like, you're right. So
Speaker 1: Casey brings in this practice footage of Lincoln flipping out
Speaker 1: because some guy like jostled his arm and he like
Speaker 1: pushes into the ground and gets in his face. He's like,
Speaker 1: don't ever do that again. Like he's acting like a
Speaker 1: real agro asshole. So uh oh. Cut to deliberation time.
Speaker 1: The jury finds Lincoln Haveer guilty and he is stoneface.
Speaker 1: They close up on his very beautiful face at the
Speaker 1: bar after Benton is peer pressuring Stabler to have another
Speaker 1: drink and he's like, I can't, and she.
Speaker 4: Goes, I just broke up with Kurt.
Speaker 1: You said you'd be there for me, and he goes,
Speaker 1: I am, But Eli is driving Kathy crazy.
Speaker 4: Never forget that this.
Speaker 1: Earlier this season, Stabler had his fifth fucking child that
Speaker 1: he's never around for and they didn't name it after Olivia,
Speaker 1: who helped fucking save Kathy from a Jaws of Life
Speaker 1: car situation mid labor.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she says, I'm kidding, get out of here or whatever.
Speaker 4: And then the.
Speaker 1: Bartender goes, hey, Olivia, your case is on the TV.
Speaker 1: I think because he wanted too much from her. Oh,
Speaker 1: He's like, move in with me, move in, you know,
Speaker 1: I can help you. I could say, she doesn't let
Speaker 1: people in like that, not at this stage, you know.
Speaker 1: So the bartender goes, Olivia, your case is on TV,
Speaker 1: and it's Gary Leslie, the agent, and he's at some
Speaker 1: kind of like press conference, you know, the kind of
Speaker 1: thing I would only be on like ESPN or something
Speaker 1: where they're like, oh, Lincoln Haver's conviction is a tragedy,
Speaker 1: but Dwayne Fitzgerald will be a great replacement. And then
Speaker 1: he goes, just promise me I won't catch you making
Speaker 1: out with your boyfriend in a restaurant bathroom, and liv
Speaker 1: gets a light bulb. She's like, Gary said he didn't
Speaker 1: know Lincoln was gay till after the murder, So now
Speaker 1: so like, what is this?
Speaker 4: What's this bathroom situation all about?
Speaker 1: So now they've got Gary in a room so dark
Speaker 1: it literally looks like it's being illuminated by candlelight. It's
Speaker 1: like there is one candle in the corner. The room
Speaker 1: is pitch black. How did you find out that Lincoln
Speaker 1: was gay? And he goes, I told you Natasha called
Speaker 1: me after you outed him. And they're like, what about
Speaker 1: the night the four of you had dinner? Did you
Speaker 1: suspect anything then? And he's like, I don't know what
Speaker 1: you're talking about. And then Live cuts to the chase.
Speaker 1: She fucking drops a bar right on the table and goes,
Speaker 1: we found the murder weapon in your apartment.
Speaker 4: This guy doesn't know his home has been searched yet.
Speaker 4: This is wild.
Speaker 1: So you saw Lincoln kissing Jeremy in the bathroom, and
Speaker 1: all those years of hard work making Lincoln a star
Speaker 1: and to see that, and he goes, it made me
Speaker 1: want a puke, going at it like a pair of
Speaker 1: horny teenagers. So he goes, I went to Jeremy's place
Speaker 1: and talk some sent it to him and he told
Speaker 1: me that Lincoln had just left. I begged him to
Speaker 1: give Lincoln up He told me that they were getting
Speaker 1: married and that they were gonna have a big party
Speaker 1: that summer and come out to everyone, and he told
Speaker 1: me to go out and find a new cash cow.
Speaker 1: Now that because Lincoln's retiring, and Gary goes I lost it.
Speaker 1: That stupid little fairy is ruining everything. I just wanted
Speaker 1: to shut him up. I didn't mean to kill him.
Speaker 1: So then they're like, oh, and then you found the
Speaker 1: sex toys. You dressed him up to make it look
Speaker 1: like rough sex gone bad, and you leaked it to
Speaker 1: the media like you're the connection to sportsman Larry. I
Speaker 1: don't know why we don't think the sports agent is
Speaker 1: connected to sportsman Larry. I worked my ass off for
Speaker 1: years getting him everything, and this little boyfriend wanted to
Speaker 1: take it all away and Stabler I think goes. Love sucks,
Speaker 1: and then Gary goes, yeah, doesn't it screw love? He's
Speaker 1: a football player, a piece of meat I sell to
Speaker 1: the highest bit. How many years do you think he
Speaker 1: has left?
Speaker 4: Five? Ten?
Speaker 1: If there's a miracle, why couldn't you just waited a
Speaker 1: couple of years? And now so that guy just clearly
Speaker 1: for a fixer, for a guy who fixes things professionally.
Speaker 1: He really just gave it to them all. They're like, what,
Speaker 1: we found the murder up and he's like, great, they've
Speaker 1: got me. I'm going to jail for forty years. Like
Speaker 1: I don't know, he just gave it to them. So
Speaker 1: now they're in prison, springing Lincoln Haveer, who explains like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I confess because I remember being there, I remember fighting.
Speaker 4: I thought I must have done it. And they're like, well,
Speaker 4: I think you'll get back.
Speaker 1: To the game now, and he's like, no, the doctors
Speaker 1: won't let me play because of my permanent brain damage.
Speaker 4: Then I wonder if.
Speaker 1: He still gets his forty mil I don't think so, right,
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, and he goes, I had it
Speaker 1: all a man, I loved a career, football, gave me everything,
Speaker 1: and then took it all away.
Speaker 4: And he walks off, And that's dick woo baby. I think,
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm sorry. I think Benson is the one
Speaker 4: who took it all away.
Speaker 2: It wasn't for Benson, like his lover would have been murdered,
Speaker 2: which is devastating his husband. But she's the reason everyone
Speaker 2: found out and even lost his career.
Speaker 1: But do you think if they had found out that
Speaker 1: the agent did it, Like, what would the motive? Like,
Speaker 1: what would everybody have had assumed that the motive would be.
Speaker 4: Then he could have badged him or whatever, but like.
Speaker 1: There would have been The thing is is like there
Speaker 1: can always be rumors, Like there's there can always be
Speaker 1: little rumors. The rumors don't always necessarily lead to like
Speaker 1: losing stuff, you know. It's like when there's some kind
Speaker 1: of like proof or whatever. Anyway, take me to the
Speaker 1: reality of the real case.
Speaker 4: Well, the real case.
Speaker 2: We're going to a different kind of football, what we
Speaker 2: would call soccer. So we're going to the UK, baby,
Speaker 2: so it's foot Yeah. So this is about Justin Fashionu,
Speaker 2: who is a British soccer player who was the first
Speaker 2: professional football to come out as gay. He was born
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty one and raised in Hackney with his
Speaker 2: Nigerian father and Guyanese mother. But when he was young
Speaker 2: his parents split up and his dad went back to
Speaker 2: Nigeria and was like peace out, bitch, and his mom
Speaker 2: was just like struggling in poverty and couldn't take care
Speaker 2: of them and actually release them, so they went to
Speaker 2: foster care. Oh yeah, kind of crazy, but she couldn't
Speaker 2: make ends meet and so she sent them to this
Speaker 2: charity called Bernardo's and it prepares children for like the
Speaker 2: foster system and adoption, and their mom did visit them
Speaker 2: once a month. But yeah, so they ended up growing
Speaker 2: up in Norfolk and football became the central theme of
Speaker 2: the brother's lives.
Speaker 4: So it's Justin and John.
Speaker 2: They both played football and for years they were the
Speaker 2: only black people they ever saw in their lives until
Speaker 2: they were like eighteen nineteen years old, like everyone was
Speaker 2: white and that was life for them, and to the Guardian,
Speaker 2: according to them, like the brothers said, it was the
Speaker 2: easiest way for us to make money. There were no
Speaker 2: black bankers, lawyers or anything at all. We knew the
Speaker 2: only way to make money if you were black was
Speaker 2: either a saying dance or play football.
Speaker 4: That's it.
Speaker 2: And so that's what these these brothers did. And he
Speaker 2: ended up winning like the BBC's Goal of the Season
Speaker 2: award in nineteen eighty against Liverpool and just he was
Speaker 2: a really good player. In nineteen eighty one he joined
Speaker 2: the Nottingham Forest and he was so he was transferred
Speaker 2: from Norwich City. Like this is where it gets crazy.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't this sounds like Robin Hood era,
Speaker 2: Like I don't know what is this, So the Dottingham Forest.
Speaker 2: So he's in Norwich City, which sounds like a chip brand.
Speaker 2: And he became the first black footballer to be transferred
Speaker 2: eb for a fee of one million pounds, so he
Speaker 2: was like the highest paid black football player of his
Speaker 2: time a million dollars for this transfer. During the season though,
Speaker 2: he became a born again Christian, which is like weird,
Speaker 2: and then he just like struggled to reconcile his life,
Speaker 2: his religious beliefs is sexuality, his career like everything and
Speaker 2: just kind of was in chaos. And I think a
Speaker 2: lot of it was like not being able to be
Speaker 2: who he was. But he ended up getting injured a lot, right,
Speaker 2: and he was injured in nineteen eighty three, and he
Speaker 2: just never played at that same high level that he
Speaker 2: was used to. He was advised to retire, but he
Speaker 2: didn't want to, and so he came to North America.
Speaker 2: He played there professionally, but then in nineteen ninety he
Speaker 2: found out that a British paper was going to out him,
Speaker 2: so instead he sold his story to the Sun and
Speaker 2: that was published October twenty second of that year. The
Speaker 2: headline was one million pounds soccer star, I am gay
Speaker 2: and he was twenty nine years old.
Speaker 1: I love that he was able to sort of at
Speaker 1: least reclaim his own story and cut off the other
Speaker 1: publication scoop.
Speaker 4: He basically scooped his own story. I like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he also needed money. I think he got
Speaker 2: like seventy grand so I don't know, but the John
Speaker 2: was pissed. John was homophobic. He would try and bribe
Speaker 2: him for money not to come out, and after he did,
Speaker 2: he publicly blashed him, condemned him for going public, said
Speaker 2: he would never want to play with him, get changed
Speaker 2: with him. But it's like it is also your brother
Speaker 2: gay or not, Like, yeah, there's more issues. Yeah, if
Speaker 2: he wants to insist, it's just like it's so homophobic
Speaker 2: and backwards. But from ninety one to ninety four I
Speaker 2: had conflicting accounts, and also because I don't understand football
Speaker 2: that much, was like hard to get to the bottom
Speaker 2: of and no source was credible, like the guard Like
Speaker 2: I just couldn't find like real news about this, but
Speaker 2: it said so you went back to the UK and
Speaker 2: had the most successful period in British football and had
Speaker 2: fun and was enjoying himself. He played for Torquay, Torque
Speaker 2: United and England and the Jesus Great Air whatever this team,
Speaker 2: these other teams like a Dronians FC and Heart of
Speaker 2: Middle Athonian FC in Scotland, Like what the.
Speaker 4: Fuck is that? Yeah, mid Lothian god of fucking.
Speaker 2: Life, guys, can you just be the like the saber
Speaker 2: Tooth Tigers, Like I can't with these cities.
Speaker 4: But he was mocked.
Speaker 2: So he had these like great years of playing, but
Speaker 2: like mocked by opposing players.
Speaker 4: And this is nothing new.
Speaker 2: I just saw a video of like a really really
Speaker 2: young black player cried during a press conference after a
Speaker 2: game because none of the media was addressing it.
Speaker 4: But it's like they're racist as fuck.
Speaker 2: They throw bananas at black players like they're kind of evil.
Speaker 2: So it's like, not only did you have to deal
Speaker 2: with that, but of course he's gonna get mocked for
Speaker 2: being gay and the fans hated it, you know, like
Speaker 2: by opposing players, but his fans mostly supported him and
Speaker 2: his teammates and whatever. So but then The Daily Mail
Speaker 2: wrote that after he came out that his career declined.
Speaker 4: It's like I don't I.
Speaker 2: Don't know, but he did eventually have to come to America.
Speaker 2: So that's a downgrade for soccer obviously, like if you
Speaker 2: have to come to America, you're not good, Like you're.
Speaker 4: Not as good as other people.
Speaker 2: His last match for the US was on a team
Speaker 2: called the Atlanta Ruckus in nineteen ninety seven, and then
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety eight he became a coach of the
Speaker 2: Maryland Now On March twenty fifth, nineteen ninety eight, he's
Speaker 2: accused of sexual assault by a seventeen year old male.
Speaker 2: His brother John is like it wasn't true, but so
Speaker 2: he was accused and then there was a questioning and
Speaker 2: some blood tests and a warrant was issued for his arrest.
Speaker 2: He was interviewed by police, the arrant was issued charging
Speaker 2: him a first and second degree assault and second degree
Speaker 2: sexual assault, but he left for England and so then
Speaker 2: on May first, nineteen ninety eight, two months after the
Speaker 2: initial accusations, they issued a statement saying that they wanted
Speaker 2: to go get him. And then the next day he
Speaker 2: was found in his garage, Short and Shortage, London, and
Speaker 2: he did he hung himself. So, two months after the accusations,
Speaker 2: the warrant for his arrest. After all the search, he
Speaker 2: did take his own life. He wrote a suicide note.
Speaker 2: He wrote, I realized that I'd already been presumed guilty.
Speaker 2: I do not want to give any more embarrassment to
Speaker 2: my friends or family.
Speaker 4: But what if he did it.
Speaker 2: He did it, it's still sad, yeah, but it's just
Speaker 2: like there was just let me just finish and then
Speaker 2: we can get into like the nitty gritty of our
Speaker 2: thoughts on this, because this isn't black and white, so
Speaker 2: fashion U did maintain that relations were consensual. Also in Maryland,
Speaker 2: the age of consent is sixteen, but we don't care
Speaker 2: about that. I don't know, Like, but also at this
Speaker 2: time in Maryland, just being homosexual was illegal, like sodally,
Speaker 2: so homosexual acts in general were illegal there. So like
Speaker 2: I do wonder what the investigation and anything like that was.
Speaker 2: But if he assaulted this tea, and I mean, not
Speaker 2: a lot of innocent people go take their own lives,
Speaker 2: So I don't know. I wish there was more information
Speaker 2: on the rape we believe victims on this podcast, but
Speaker 2: none of this seems to matter because he did eventually
Speaker 2: get inducted into the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 4: So it's like it was all tragic but he was
Speaker 4: a good player.
Speaker 2: I don't know, and I couldn't really find any like
Speaker 2: good research, and like the things I did find were
Speaker 2: like editorial. It was like people's opinions and sports journalists.
Speaker 2: But that's like not something I can use. And so
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, his brother John did admaze like I
Speaker 2: was a monster to Justine when he came out, and
Speaker 2: then as anisamal fashion, new set up justin fashion new
Speaker 2: foundation dedicated to her uncle. But one website is not
Speaker 2: active anymore. The posts are a year long. Another site
Speaker 2: I found looked weird. I don't know what this foundation
Speaker 2: is about, probably like prevention of mental health, but I
Speaker 2: have no idea. She was just ten when he took
Speaker 2: his own life. In twenty twenty, she accepted his Hall
Speaker 2: of Fame of Word on what would have been his
Speaker 2: fifty ninth birthday. No current football players ever come out
Speaker 2: during their time playing. So people have come out post retirement,
Speaker 2: but no one has ever come out again, and we
Speaker 2: need to make sure that this changes, like obviously, because yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, I was reading like kids end up quitting
Speaker 2: sports because they don't want to come out, or they
Speaker 2: feel so uncomfortable or like you know, they can't be
Speaker 2: everything or they're risking their whole like passion for sports
Speaker 2: or coming out. And I don't know. It's just like
Speaker 2: homophobia is stupid and that's that. And I don't I
Speaker 2: know this. I don't know how you get into the
Speaker 2: Hall of Fame after having these accusations, but then you're
Speaker 2: dead and it's sad that you took your own life
Speaker 2: and what was what was what was it?
Speaker 4: I don't know, and there's no information.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean, I just I just, I mean,
Speaker 1: I if he committed a crime, I obviously don't condone that,
Speaker 1: but I just feel like it must have just been
Speaker 1: an extremely hard life of being other to not only
Speaker 1: be the only black person for the first almost twenty
Speaker 1: years of your life that you even see is your
Speaker 1: brother and you, and then to have this additional thing
Speaker 1: of your sexuality where your brother even rejects you when
Speaker 1: you come out about it. You know, like that he
Speaker 1: just must have had like a really and that's tough.
Speaker 2: And that's the other Like all this other news that
Speaker 2: I found was mostly as brother talking and I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't trust you.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah. Suddenly you're changing the narrative and there
Speaker 4: was like.
Speaker 2: A show made about his life, Like there's like all
Speaker 2: this stuff and it was just him promoting and apologizing,
Speaker 2: but also all this like I mean stuff in the press.
Speaker 4: So it was just like kind of difficult.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so crazy to me that there's not a
Speaker 1: single football player in the UK that's out, like just statistically,
Speaker 1: there's definitely a bunch of gay football players.
Speaker 2: You know, it's just not worth it. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 2: get it. It's kind of like, yeah, people are so backwards.
Speaker 1: Well, we have a great interview that is going to
Speaker 1: change everything.
Speaker 4: Don't go anywhere. Our guest today is.
Speaker 1: A prolific TV actor who was in the main cast
Speaker 1: of such shows as Saving Grace, Longmire, and twenty four Legacy.
Speaker 1: Also featured in some beloved nineties classics like Sweet Valley
Speaker 1: High and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. But you know him
Speaker 1: today as the closeted NFL player Lincoln Haveber. Please enjoy
Speaker 1: our chat with the lovely Bailey Chase. I mean, I
Speaker 1: want to start off real quick with if Wikipedia is
Speaker 1: correct about you.
Speaker 4: You played football at Duke.
Speaker 5: That's true.
Speaker 4: That's true.
Speaker 5: They also yeah, they said I'm worth fifty million dollars too.
Speaker 4: I wish that were sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the net worth things on the internet are amazingas Wait,
Speaker 1: so do.
Speaker 2: You feel like your football past helped book with your
Speaker 2: special skills?
Speaker 5: Yes, navigating people on the streets of New York football
Speaker 5: comes in here. You know that that was such a
Speaker 5: so whatever, I'm going to jump ahead. I did a
Speaker 5: soap opera for like three years in New York. It
Speaker 5: was right after nine to eleven, and I was doing
Speaker 5: the thing out in la and a lot of my
Speaker 5: college buddies went into finance and literally work on Wall Street,
Speaker 5: and so I felt this call to go there, and
Speaker 5: I got offered the soap opera. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 5: I'm gonna I'm gonna go do that, and it was
Speaker 5: three of the best years of my life. It was
Speaker 5: you know, it'd be harder now with young children, but yeah,
Speaker 5: it was great as a as a soap star. Is
Speaker 5: this soap star?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Wait?
Speaker 1: Which yea?
Speaker 3: Was it?
Speaker 4: As the world turns? Is that what you do?
Speaker 5: And then I lived in Tribecca, was just above Grand Zeo,
Speaker 5: and then I would drive by and go through the
Speaker 5: tunnel to work.
Speaker 4: Because they did they did, they shoot all the soaps
Speaker 4: in Jersey.
Speaker 5: So this one was in Brooklyn. I think it's where
Speaker 5: they shot the Honeymooners and some some like old time shows.
Speaker 5: And then As the World Turns was god, it went
Speaker 5: fifty two years or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't soaps. Well, I was so ssessed. I
Speaker 1: mean s for you kind of in a way. It's
Speaker 1: like my soap, you know, just one main character who
Speaker 1: I care about.
Speaker 2: Really wait, but I do haven't As the World Turns
Speaker 2: because I was watching an interview with someone else, but
Speaker 2: they said doing soaps help them learn how to like
Speaker 2: memorize a lot and work fast and all these things
Speaker 2: like is that how you felt?
Speaker 4: Did you learn a lot?
Speaker 5: I did? Yeah, I wasn't so sure that, you know,
Speaker 5: like all young actors who take themselves too seriously and
Speaker 5: I was guilty of that. I was like, no, I'm
Speaker 5: just gonna do like movies like Brad Pitt, right, like
Speaker 5: Tom Cruise. And then reality sets in and I had
Speaker 5: had a little bit of success or whatever, but all
Speaker 5: that that money comes and goes, and I was broke
Speaker 5: and I was like twenty nine years old, like what
Speaker 5: am I going to do? And it did? It helped
Speaker 5: teach me how to become a pro. And you log,
Speaker 5: there's that book Outliers MOTHLM. Gladwell in the ten thousand.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, you log so much time front of the camera,
Speaker 5: right wow, Okay, now now I can hit marks and
Speaker 5: I can Oh it's on this camp because it was
Speaker 5: three cameras at the time. I'm sure soaps still do that,
Speaker 5: and like, god, when's last time you did three cameras
Speaker 5: at the same time, like in that in that studio
Speaker 5: set up like a friend sitcom shop.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, it's funny because we talked to so
Speaker 1: many people who obviously have done SVU and they all
Speaker 1: talk about how quick it is, like because it's like
Speaker 1: a well oiled machine, and like the crew is really
Speaker 1: well like a depth and everything, and they'll just do
Speaker 1: sort of coverage and you know, two sides or whatever.
Speaker 1: But I've never really asked soap stars, do you guys
Speaker 1: do multiple takes or is it just like so so fast,
Speaker 1: because it's like it's every day you just got to
Speaker 1: do it. You just obviously you're not going to like
Speaker 1: let a flub in there, but like, do you guys
Speaker 1: like do tons of takes or not?
Speaker 4: Really, it's like must be lightning speed.
Speaker 5: It is lightning speed, And if you're a perfectionist at all,
Speaker 5: which which you know, I've gotten better about nothing. But yeah,
Speaker 5: you they just fly. They just keep it unless it's
Speaker 5: a disaster, and then it's kind of a big deal
Speaker 5: to like go back whatever. But no, when I was
Speaker 5: doing it, you know, seventeen years ago, it was yeah,
Speaker 5: we didn't do two takes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, never, Oh my gosh, just like you better nail it,
Speaker 1: get out of here.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah. Yeah, And some people washed out, and then
Speaker 5: other people stayed forever.
Speaker 4: Susan Lucci one of the greats.
Speaker 2: Oh wild, But you were booking such cool stuff right
Speaker 2: as you started, were you like, oh I got it?
Speaker 5: Yeah, they watched it.
Speaker 2: I mean Buffy, I get like so many cool things.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Once Buffy happened, I was like, oh yeah, I
Speaker 5: made it. You know, it took three years, okay, But for.
Speaker 1: Me, it was before that when we were on Sweet
Speaker 1: Valley High, the TV show, because that is an iconic
Speaker 1: part of my childhood. Oh my god, I forgot about
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, Kara's very connected.
Speaker 4: I love Sweet Valley High. Tell me I just love
Speaker 4: like I loved her album.
Speaker 2: Her comedy album is artwork, as Kara in the art
Speaker 2: from the books, So.
Speaker 1: I commissioned the guy who did the famous covers of
Speaker 1: the books to do the cover of my album. So
Speaker 1: it's me as twins like on the cover of my album.
Speaker 1: And like, I don't even know if like he's still
Speaker 1: with us, but like I was so happy that I
Speaker 1: found this guy and he was doing commissions and stuff.
Speaker 1: But then I was obsessed with those twins that played
Speaker 1: the Twins. Those two out like they're there, they're twins, actresses,
Speaker 1: they still do stuff, but.
Speaker 5: They're from Florida. Yeah, yeah, I know them, Brittany and
Speaker 5: Cynthia Daniel.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like on they've done like Blackett or like
Speaker 1: an Housewife and yeah, all kind of there. And that
Speaker 1: show was just I don't know that for me when
Speaker 1: I was reading your IMDb, that's what popped first. And
Speaker 1: then my husband was like, well he was on Buffy
Speaker 1: and he was like looking up who you were Buffy
Speaker 1: because he was a big Buffy fan. Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: Damages Damages for me huge. Well, you've worked with like
Speaker 1: so many powerhouse women, like Glenn Close, You've worked with
Speaker 1: Holly Hunter, obviously, the twins from Sweet Valley.
Speaker 4: I mean like these are these are like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Sarah Michelle Gellar like Maurusia Arbitat, you've
Speaker 1: worked with a lot of like powerhouse women.
Speaker 5: It's cool I have and thank you, and yeah, I
Speaker 5: was raised by a single mom and and so you know,
Speaker 5: I have a lot of respect in MoMA's Boy. And
Speaker 5: yeah after you know, doing a series with with someone
Speaker 5: like Holly like you know, not a whole lot phases me.
Speaker 5: And so Glenn Close is definitely in that category.
Speaker 1: And yeah, we got to get her the oscar. It's
Speaker 1: not it's it's it's a it's a it's really a travesty.
Speaker 1: Let's let's dive into the actual s view now, like
Speaker 1: because we obviously we'll keep talking to you about your career,
Speaker 1: but we usually we've done this a little bit backwards.
Speaker 1: We normally start with s you, so you what was
Speaker 1: your what was going on in your career? Like when
Speaker 1: you got us, when you got this big part on
Speaker 1: this SVU episode. I mean this is season nine, the
Speaker 1: show's been plugging along for a few years. I think
Speaker 1: Marishka's won an Emmy at this point, so the show's popular.
Speaker 1: You get this part, they're like, you know how to
Speaker 1: throw a spiral, Let's get you in here, like how
Speaker 1: did it?
Speaker 5: Yeah, like, yeah, so this is post soap opera and
Speaker 5: all that stuff. You know. I left after the three years,
Speaker 5: and I was lucky my first kind of within a year,
Speaker 5: I was on Saving Grace with the Holly Hunter. And
Speaker 5: this was you know, way back when film stars weren't
Speaker 5: dead like there were. You had your soap stars, your
Speaker 5: TV stars, and your film stars and they were all separate. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and after and everything was separate. And then you're all
Speaker 5: your theater actors, which I'm not good tough to do.
Speaker 5: But so I got sv you either during a hiatus
Speaker 5: or right after Saving Grace was done. I think it
Speaker 5: was a hiatus, and so they offered it to me
Speaker 5: and I was like, yeah, I want to go to
Speaker 5: New York for ten days and haven't put me up
Speaker 5: and you know, I grew up the law and orders
Speaker 5: are awesome. And then yeah, you know it's this football
Speaker 5: player who you know, and it's called Closet. And that
Speaker 5: was something that hadn't been tackled yet and something that
Speaker 5: I don't speak about often was my mom spent the
Speaker 5: last twenty some years of her life with another woman.
Speaker 5: So for me to get an opportunity to play that
Speaker 5: character you know, which I haven't really done in my career.
Speaker 5: I got to do it on a reboot at twenty
Speaker 5: four after that, but you know, playing for a guy
Speaker 5: who's on another team was was different and I felt
Speaker 5: honored in a way to bring it to light.
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, that's so, that's so cool because I
Speaker 1: feel like some actors would have maybe turned it down
Speaker 1: or you know know, like two thousand and eight. It's
Speaker 1: like it seems like modern, but there's there, you know,
Speaker 1: and we always talk about SVU is like ahead of
Speaker 1: the curve on a lot of this stuff. Like they're
Speaker 1: doing a they're doing like an episode about this before,
Speaker 1: like you know, is it Michael Sam Like before there's
Speaker 1: a lot of real talk about pro athletes being out
Speaker 1: of the closet, you know, like they really are sort
Speaker 1: of like prescient in the way they tackle a lot.
Speaker 4: Of these social issues.
Speaker 1: So this episode really sticks that because it's relevant. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's also sad that it's been seventeen years and nothing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's still not really I mean we talk about it
Speaker 1: when we did the recap. I think there was like
Speaker 1: one out player and he retired after a couple of
Speaker 1: seasons and uh you know, yeah, like you really captured
Speaker 1: the sort of whole, the journey. Yeah, the whole and
Speaker 1: the whole. Yeah, yeah, the institution of football. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's almost like football will be the last sport where
Speaker 1: this is happening. I feel like it's such a just
Speaker 1: but it is so gay. Yeah, it's like so homo erotic.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You passed the ball through your like between your legs.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then you all jump on top of each other.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's true, it's true. Yeah, it's that's when you
Speaker 5: hike the ball.
Speaker 2: One of the most famous shots, I would say an
Speaker 2: SVU history is the cemetery night vision, them finally realizing
Speaker 2: it's you were you actually at a cemetery?
Speaker 4: Did you go shoot at a cemetery?
Speaker 5: You know, I don't remember the cemetery. I remember a
Speaker 5: lot of things about that episode. It was so it
Speaker 5: was it was the coolest part was going to Giant Stadium.
Speaker 4: We got to oh yeah, it was where you guys
Speaker 4: were practicing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we played football in the meadowlands and that that
Speaker 5: was really cool. And in college I'd had the chance
Speaker 5: to play there against Rutgers, but it was just we
Speaker 5: had the whole place to ourselves. And you're out there
Speaker 5: with these you know, crew guys, and obviously crew guys
Speaker 5: in you know New York, New Jersey are very different
Speaker 5: than the l A Crew guys. So we were all
Speaker 5: like playing football when whenever we could, and and and
Speaker 5: so that was super fun. And then we were like
Speaker 5: shooting on these you know, random you know, little uh
Speaker 5: kind of side streets in Manhattan, and you got to
Speaker 5: block up traffic and there's noise everywhere. So that's always
Speaker 5: a big deal, like when you know you're shooting. So
Speaker 5: I remember that that that uh, that part of it
Speaker 5: was was really fun. But the other thing about the character,
Speaker 5: other than trying to shine a light on you know,
Speaker 5: this is this is something that needs to be talked about,
Speaker 5: you know, with with just gay you know, professional athletes
Speaker 5: in general. It should you know, we should. This is
Speaker 5: something we should be able to talk about. I got
Speaker 5: to play a character that wasn't all together. So if
Speaker 5: you go back to like Buffy, like, yeah, here's a
Speaker 5: guy who's got it all together, they're saving Grace. That guy,
Speaker 5: you know, he thinks, you know, I had it all together.
Speaker 5: Same with the soap, but I got to play a
Speaker 5: damaged individual who was hiding, shame and guilt and all
Speaker 5: these other things that I know my mom carried, you
Speaker 5: know with her and her adult life, and nobody, nobody
Speaker 5: deserves or needs that. So I what a cool thing
Speaker 5: to play as an actor. And I feel like that
Speaker 5: Little Guest Star was probably the best work that I've
Speaker 5: done in my career at that point.
Speaker 4: Wow, it's a really good and.
Speaker 5: You got to as anybody ever said that on your
Speaker 5: show before.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we've said it to me that this is your
Speaker 4: best work ever.
Speaker 1: I mean you also got to We like to talk
Speaker 1: about something that we call like the SVU Bingo card,
Speaker 1: like where you get to do a few different specific
Speaker 1: things and like what you got. You hit a lot
Speaker 1: of them. One is around the head bandage all the
Speaker 1: way when you're in the hospital. We love them, all
Speaker 1: the way around the head bandage. You also got to code,
Speaker 1: you got to like almost die. Uh, you're on the stand.
Speaker 1: You're on the stand. You got Olivia Benson cradled you
Speaker 1: in her arms. I mean these are all huge moments.
Speaker 4: You you have.
Speaker 1: You have bingo basically on sv Bingo as we have made.
Speaker 1: We actually should make the cards. We have to make
Speaker 1: the actual Bingo cards.
Speaker 2: Wait, the other bingo moment. Yeah, and misterpher and Maloney
Speaker 2: whispered in your ear. He got real close. That's kind
Speaker 2: of a that's a thing of his.
Speaker 1: He gets close, especially like an episode that's like that's
Speaker 1: like dealing with a guy that's in the closet and
Speaker 1: then Christopher Maloney's like up there whispering in your ear.
Speaker 1: Like he gets close enough to kiss most of the
Speaker 1: purpse on the show. But it was especially funny how
Speaker 1: he was just like, so, this is what happened, and
Speaker 1: he's like whispering his whole hypothesis in your ear.
Speaker 4: How was working with him?
Speaker 5: Yeah, he was. He was interesting. I liked him a lot.
Speaker 5: He's intense. He's intense and you know, just an alpha
Speaker 5: of an alpha male and uh and so it was
Speaker 5: it was kind of interesting, like you know because I
Speaker 5: show up and whatever, and you know it's I wasn't
Speaker 5: doing anything like this is his turf and whatever. I'm
Speaker 5: not like lifting my lego and stuff. But he had
Speaker 5: he did have a bad day where he was throwing
Speaker 5: stuff and I was like, okay, like whatever, But then
Speaker 5: like I hadn't really seen that. I'd seen some temper
Speaker 5: tantrums and you know, like i'd been around, but he yeah,
Speaker 5: he threw some stuff one day and I was like,
Speaker 5: oh okay. And then I definitely, you know, bonded more
Speaker 5: with Mriscoe Hardy tape. She would totally maternal and she
Speaker 5: was friends with Holly Hunter and so we kind of
Speaker 5: connected some dots there. But Chris, he kind of kept himself.
Speaker 5: But he was nice and very respectful with you know,
Speaker 5: let's say my close ups or whatever. So I got
Speaker 5: nothing bad to say about him, but it definitely intense.
Speaker 1: He didn't play football with you guys, No, no, no, ss.
Speaker 4: What did he throw.
Speaker 5: Some equipment? Yeah, like some lighting stuff you got fell
Speaker 5: down lighting his hell like some Yeah, he was upset
Speaker 5: about something and then and then cut to cut to
Speaker 5: like a year later, he leaves the show like he
Speaker 5: wasn't around the next season. But then obviously he didn't
Speaker 5: burn too many bridges because he comes back.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well we've talked to the showrunners and stuff about that,
Speaker 1: and they're like, it's was all purely like contractual, like
Speaker 1: it was just contract stuff like that. The reason he
Speaker 1: didn't come back, Like I think he liked doing the
Speaker 1: show or whatever, but it was you know, but yeah,
Speaker 1: he left after season twelve. So but like, uh so
Speaker 1: wait you also, I mean so many more bingo things.
Speaker 1: You get a celebrity lawyer, bevery ly D'Angelo is your lawyer?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, we've had her on the pod and
Speaker 1: we love her.
Speaker 5: How was working with her amazing? She actually exactly what
Speaker 5: you see is what you get. She's the bomb.
Speaker 1: Oh. We could have talked to her for like three hours.
Speaker 1: We were like, we have to go, like it was.
Speaker 5: She was the best.
Speaker 1: She was like, let me tell you more about al Pacino.
Speaker 1: We were like okay, yeah, yeah. And then another thing
Speaker 1: is you got to be psychologically, uh neurologically analyzed by B. D.
Speaker 1: Wong George Wong, one of our favorite characters, and I'm
Speaker 1: obsessed with this scene. When I did the recap of
Speaker 1: the episode, I was just like, how it's mostly your
Speaker 1: voiceover and then it's you just like connecting dots on
Speaker 1: a board, Like do you remember doing all these like
Speaker 1: neurological tests. Like Neil Baer was the showrunner of the
Speaker 1: show at the time, and he's an actual adoptor, so
Speaker 1: I'm assuming these were like real tests that they had
Speaker 1: set up for you.
Speaker 5: Definitely, I guess I guess. Yeah. No, I do remember
Speaker 5: doing some some tests, but I didn't research that the
Speaker 5: right you know, validity of but beat. I remember Bead.
Speaker 5: He was great, Yeah, everybody was Yeah. It was fun
Speaker 5: and it turned out like really really good. I remember
Speaker 5: the casting director saying years later he hired me for
Speaker 5: Chicago Pad. It was another kind of offer thing.
Speaker 6: I think I was coming off a Longmire and I
Speaker 6: was like, yeah, I definitely would love to do that,
Speaker 6: and he's like, you know, I have cast however, many
Speaker 6: thousand episodes and that's one of my favorite ones.
Speaker 4: Yeah, how about that huge?
Speaker 5: How about that knowledge?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that one. It's definitely one of the classes.
Speaker 4: It's definitely one of the classics.
Speaker 2: It's definitely like, yeah, and then now you're doing a
Speaker 2: lot of cowboys stuff.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, how that happened?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you think it is it the vibe is it
Speaker 1: now that you're in or do you think North Carolina
Speaker 1: affected the cowboy connection?
Speaker 5: It's a good question. I think I think I'm I.
Speaker 5: I guess it started with Saving Grace because I was Oklahoma,
Speaker 5: and then Longmire, which was you know, Wyoming. But but
Speaker 5: I did grow up riding, so my dad stayed in
Speaker 5: Barrington Hills. Actually he's a fox hunter. So my brother
Speaker 5: and I had ponies. It's kids, so we you know,
Speaker 5: it's like riding a bike when you start young. Like
Speaker 5: I've always been able to ride pretty well, and.
Speaker 2: So your resume special skills are good. You can play
Speaker 2: football and you're riding horses.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I should actually maybe put horseback riding
Speaker 5: above my name. I don't know, yeah, but yeah, I am.
Speaker 5: I'm good on a horse. Gonna say so that that's true. Uh,
Speaker 5: and I think there yeah, there aren't a ton of
Speaker 5: actors who can ride well. But it did. It just
Speaker 5: kind of happened because I'm you know, Chicago, raised in Florida,
Speaker 5: went to school in North Carolina. But but now, like
Speaker 5: living here in the mountains is different than going to
Speaker 5: school over in like Rollie Durham, Like that's one thing,
Speaker 5: but the mountains is it's as you guys know you've
Speaker 5: been here, there's there's a little more of a redneck vibe. Yeah,
Speaker 5: so you know, but I'm like a white trash these
Speaker 5: other places.
Speaker 4: There's also like a huge demand for this stuff now.
Speaker 1: I think since Yellowstone got so popular, right like now,
Speaker 1: there's like a demand for all more cowboys. Not that
Speaker 1: cowboys stuff hasn't been a huge part of American entertainment
Speaker 1: for a long time. But I feel like now I'm
Speaker 1: seeing so many Yellowstone adjacent You're right.
Speaker 5: And then there was a pilot season of the Yellowstone knockoff, yes,
Speaker 5: and those didn't last because there's only one Yellowstone, and
Speaker 5: Ohmire was pretty good but never quite did what Yellowstone did.
Speaker 5: But but yeah, I agree with you, a total resurgence.
Speaker 5: And so there was a moment there where you know,
Speaker 5: I was getting ready to do a new show. I
Speaker 5: was actually going to do a comedy, right, and then
Speaker 5: the pandemic everything got shut down and then didn't work
Speaker 5: for a couple of years. And then that's that was
Speaker 5: kind of my way back in where I was doing
Speaker 5: some of these westerns and and that's been great. But
Speaker 5: now I have a new series going in Utah, so
Speaker 5: I'm back in the Oh.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: So I was going to ask you, so like having
Speaker 1: your family in North Carolina, but then being an actor,
Speaker 1: like you must be kind of on the road a lot, right,
Speaker 1: like you just commute to work and.
Speaker 5: Kind kind of kind of now and and so how
Speaker 5: that started to happen out of the pandemic. And when
Speaker 5: I was, you know, New Year, I was just leaving
Speaker 5: for a month or two months at a time and go,
Speaker 5: do you know like a Christmas movie? Because I needed
Speaker 5: the money or it's also cool to make things that
Speaker 5: your kids can can watch. Yeah, so I'm proud of
Speaker 5: my two little Christmas nooze and then uh and then
Speaker 5: the westerns do you tend to get offered to me? Now?
Speaker 5: And and those are great because as you know, I
Speaker 5: love to ride. But this new thing is called Homestead.
Speaker 5: We shoot it out in Utah. It started as a
Speaker 5: as a feature, has always developed to be a series,
Speaker 5: but then we had that Hollywood strike and so the
Speaker 5: only way they could shoot it was as a as
Speaker 5: a feature. And so that was basically the first two episodes.
Speaker 5: We shot a couple more, and now we're going back
Speaker 5: this summer to finish the first season and planning on
Speaker 5: doing season two in the snow.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's actually what I'm hoping for White the
Speaker 2: next White Lotus.
Speaker 1: I want snow. Oh well, a great idea I thought
Speaker 1: they were. Parker Posey said it should be in the
Speaker 1: Alps so people can get where people should get gratitude,
Speaker 1: like crazy altitude weirdness, altitude sickness.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a thing. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. We got
Speaker 5: married and Aspen and my wife got it. It's an
Speaker 5: actual Wow. Yeah we did ski wedding.
Speaker 4: That's cool. Wow you ski too, another thing on your
Speaker 4: list of the skills, geezus.
Speaker 2: So you're going to do snow riding skiing time? What's
Speaker 2: Florida wild?
Speaker 5: Oh? Another Western So it's always kind of a dream
Speaker 5: of mine to go back to Florida and work. I'd
Speaker 5: never you know, filmed anything down there. And uh and
Speaker 5: there's a sky marked Pentecost too. You know, had this
Speaker 5: this dream and he built this old western town on
Speaker 5: his ranch. And the movies based on this book about
Speaker 5: how they used to do these cattle drives back, you know,
Speaker 5: through the Everglades and they get them out to the railroad.
Speaker 1: It's so cool. I just got back from Florida two
Speaker 1: days ago.
Speaker 4: I was there. Oh, Sarasota.
Speaker 5: Okay, so that's where you fly.
Speaker 4: Into you fly Tampa, but you know s r Q.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, So I'm actually going back to Sarasota
Speaker 5: for a thing down there. And then you go out
Speaker 5: to a place called Mayaca City, middle of nowhere. There's
Speaker 5: like an elephant sanctuary got there. So it's technically not
Speaker 5: the Everglades but just north of but it's all like
Speaker 5: Marshy kind of same same topography.
Speaker 4: Oh that's awesome. So you have a lot coming up
Speaker 4: and you're doing a lot.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, oh yeah, I almost forgot. There's another one
Speaker 5: that just came out in theaters on Friday. It's called
Speaker 5: Sod and Stubble. Another Western kind of you know, pioneer
Speaker 5: back when Kansas was a frontier based on a book,
Speaker 5: real life story. This one's a little more you know,
Speaker 5: it's hard, it's hard living back in the teen eighties,
Speaker 5: and you go like stick your claim. But yeah, Soud
Speaker 5: and Stubbles in theaters right now, Florida Wilds on Deck
Speaker 5: and then Homestead or Homestead All.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, you're like, that's like a good success story
Speaker 1: of like someone who moved to like a different part
Speaker 1: of the country and can still like be doing acting.
Speaker 4: You know, like that's great.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and yet not to get all religious about it,
Speaker 5: but it did take a real leap of faith, and
Speaker 5: being back here in North Carolina, I feel more supported.
Speaker 5: Like I actually, after doing this for twenty five years,
Speaker 5: was like I might have to find a new profession,
Speaker 5: and so I should. You know, I'm happy to speak
Speaker 5: candidly for any of the other actors out there in
Speaker 5: the audience. But I took this sleep of faith, and
Speaker 5: you know, he caught me. And I feel supported and
Speaker 5: I'm excited about the future.
Speaker 1: And I guess if you had to make a career
Speaker 1: change where you could be like a football coach or
Speaker 1: a horse wrangler, or you could say, or a ski instructor.
Speaker 1: I mean there's a few things I feel like you
Speaker 1: can fall back on.
Speaker 5: Apparently I'm pretty good at bingos.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, bingo. Yes, down at church. You gotta run church, Bingo.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for talking to us and taking
Speaker 1: the time. This was so fun. We got an NFL
Speaker 1: Lincoln Haver on the on the pod.
Speaker 4: It's huge. It's a fun things. I love it.
Speaker 5: I love it. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Wow, good chats, good talk. Same issues. We'll never progress
Speaker 2: as humans. I don't know what I like is that's
Speaker 2: what's keeping us down thinking we can get But I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm sure it's better. I feel like there are a
Speaker 2: lot of gultees in the streets.
Speaker 4: I get it. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, athletics is definitely an area where things
Speaker 1: are slow to change.
Speaker 4: But yeah, this episode.
Speaker 2: Wait, I just got a text that like pops up
Speaker 2: on my screen while we're recording, and it's it's from
Speaker 2: a friend and it says, is Lisa vander Pump running
Speaker 2: a brothel?
Speaker 4: Question mark.
Speaker 1: What.
Speaker 2: I'll get back to that after we're done recording, of course,
Speaker 2: but I thought I would share with everyone. Yeah, athletics
Speaker 2: does move slowly, but I am thinking about just like
Speaker 2: that woman that tried to run the first the Boston
Speaker 2: Marathon and people like truly we're trying to rip her
Speaker 2: down and pull her away, and like the fake pseudoscience
Speaker 2: that's used to like have prevented women from wing sports.
Speaker 4: I feel like women have made huge.
Speaker 1: Progress, Yes, and we've got you exactly, and like like
Speaker 1: now there's like female.
Speaker 4: They're all major teams, and you know.
Speaker 1: Like we're getting we're getting progressive there, but like I
Speaker 1: still think to.
Speaker 4: Be I was on my football team in eighth grade.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course Lisa a pioneer bursting those doors open,
Speaker 1: of course, but I just like I still feel like
Speaker 1: you as like if you're like a gay NBA player,
Speaker 1: NFL player, you're like you're probably just not coming out
Speaker 1: until you're retiring, because even if you're like accepted by
Speaker 1: your teammates, you're probably not getting that Gatorade deal or
Speaker 1: whatever that. Like they talk about what's the d what's
Speaker 1: the drink called in this one? Something stupid that I
Speaker 1: thought I had a better name for. Oh yeah, power twink.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be called power twink. What is power drink?
Speaker 1: But you know, I just uh, yeah, this show always
Speaker 1: reminds me like ben far we've come and how far
Speaker 1: we've not come?
Speaker 2: But Benson ruined it. I mean, Benson definitely outed this man. Yes,
Speaker 2: all of the fallout is because of Benson. Sorry, like sorry,
Speaker 2: not sorry.
Speaker 1: I don't know that they've ever given her such a
Speaker 1: blunder before, like that, She's obviously made mistakes, she's been
Speaker 1: wrong about the suspect and stuff, but like such a
Speaker 1: thing where it's like you ruin this man's career, like
Speaker 1: you ruined this man's fucking life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, we got to think of it. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a bad one. I can but that bitch. They
Speaker 2: should have arrested her for something and like put her
Speaker 2: in the box. I don't know, she couldn't text. Oh,
Speaker 2: they should have breaken all the roads.
Speaker 4: Not pretty enough for me? Swim on the cover of
Speaker 4: the Swimsuit issue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she's a beautiful girl.
Speaker 1: It's just like, well she she said the F word.
Speaker 1: I think we can let it go. But the actress, yes,
Speaker 1: the actress pretty.
Speaker 2: You don't think they already got someone booked for this
Speaker 2: big time spread, like maybe she could be in it.
Speaker 2: But the cover of Sports Illustrates to me is just
Speaker 2: like it's like the September issue of Vogue.
Speaker 4: It's like this is like months in advance.
Speaker 1: It's really crazy how much it was ingrained into our youth.
Speaker 1: Like I would be like in eighth grade being like
Speaker 1: who got the cover? Like what do I give a shit?
Speaker 1: I never read Yeah, ma, oh my god, whoever gets
Speaker 1: fifty most Beautiful people on People magazine? Like the cover
Speaker 1: of that was like it had me in a choke hold.
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with all of those magazine covers.
Speaker 4: Now print media is.
Speaker 1: Like please, please by thing. You know, I just bought
Speaker 1: a People. By the way, I just bought a People magazine.
Speaker 1: I used to be kind of really into People on
Speaker 1: the airplane and whenever I would travel, and then when
Speaker 1: they had Trump on the cover, like right after he
Speaker 1: got elected the first time, and I think EG and
Speaker 1: Carol used to write for People. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: fuck you guys, like I'm done with People, but I
Speaker 1: grabbed it now eight years later. Once recently, Okay, the
Speaker 1: whole cover story was about this NFL player he played
Speaker 1: like one season whose wife was plotting to kill him.
Speaker 4: This is relevant to our genre.
Speaker 1: Okay, he's now dating Savannah Chrisly from Chrisly Knows Best
Speaker 1: the Man. Okay, but the cover story is about and
Speaker 1: actually he just broke up with Savannah out of nowhere,
Speaker 1: and she's very upset about it, but at the time
Speaker 1: he's still dating her. She he's so rich somehow, this
Speaker 1: guy that.
Speaker 4: They have a private plane.
Speaker 1: He gets into a huge fight with his wife because
Speaker 1: she wants to use the private plane to go down
Speaker 1: to the Bahamas, but he knows she's going to see
Speaker 1: her new boyfriend. They're still living together even though they're separated,
Speaker 1: so he's like, no, you're not allowed to. So then
Speaker 1: she texts her boyfriend and her boyfriend's friend in the
Speaker 1: Bahamas kill him or something like that, because she sees
Speaker 1: a picture of him in the Bahamas with his girlfriend.
Speaker 1: So she's like pissed, and she texts kill him that
Speaker 1: somehow is a murder plot. No money is exchanged, no
Speaker 1: plans are made, no no.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: She doesn't say she's she's on trial, like she's literally
Speaker 1: going to trial for a murder plot of her husband.
Speaker 4: And I read this.
Speaker 1: People article, I'm like, am I are you guys this
Speaker 1: desperate to sell magazines?
Speaker 4: Like this is not even a case.
Speaker 1: Like there's a fucking serial killer possibly in New England
Speaker 1: and like that no one's paying attention to Oh my.
Speaker 2: God, yes, And I was in herd Island when I
Speaker 2: found out about it. Oh yeah, god, wait hold on,
Speaker 2: I'm trying to read this while you're telling me about it.
Speaker 2: I'm like overwhelmed. The christly Like I just I'm like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck? Like if ever, every time I said
Speaker 2: kill him was in my phone and I was on
Speaker 2: trial for murder, right, It's.
Speaker 1: Like if you are like exactly, like if we were
Speaker 1: like we think Mark Zuckerberg should be in front of
Speaker 1: a firing squad, It's like they come in and they
Speaker 1: get us like like the she did not exchange any
Speaker 1: money with them, didn't say, hey, he normally is at
Speaker 1: this diner at this time. Go get him, like there
Speaker 1: was no plot in place, and this woman's like literally
Speaker 1: having to go down to the Bahamas and go to
Speaker 1: trial all the time. It's crazy. And then this guy
Speaker 1: dumps the Vanna Christly on her ass. That Christly guy's
Speaker 1: in jail till twenty thirty three. That's a long time
Speaker 1: for like the tax evasion shit, that's a long time.
Speaker 1: You can't fuck with the government. I don't have the money.
Speaker 1: You can't fuck with money. I don't know, Yeah, but
Speaker 1: like all I want to know what the charges were, Like,
Speaker 1: what are her fucking charges? Like everything is salacious, Like
Speaker 1: every news headline is, oh, Clement sure has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with this.
Speaker 4: Again, I can't. I can't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we've been getting some messages from listeners about
Speaker 1: this New England serial killer. I mean, the cops are
Speaker 1: saying they're not connected. It's oh really, yeah. I first
Speaker 1: think there's not a ton of like that kind of murder,
Speaker 1: serial murdering I feel like happening in like New England,
Speaker 1: And so I think all of the I say that
Speaker 1: as a New Englander, I don't think there's a lot
Speaker 1: of good law enforcement, Like I don't think they have precedent.
Speaker 2: I don't think they know what. They're like doing a lot,
Speaker 2: you know, when it's ten bodies now found in less
Speaker 2: than two months. But it's kind of like with the
Speaker 2: Long Island killer, the cops and the chief of whatever.
Speaker 2: I was like, no, no, no, not connect Ell. She
Speaker 2: wanted to go like they're fucking animals. Like, I don't
Speaker 2: know what to tell you. They have their own little
Speaker 2: secret cult going on.
Speaker 1: It's at least getting a little bit oppressed now, but
Speaker 1: I don't know if the cops are doing anything about it.
Speaker 2: Label it, yeah, officials address rumors, you know, like they
Speaker 2: don't want to. Well, now an aar restumate in a
Speaker 2: homicide of New England women one day ago. So but
Speaker 2: it's people dot com. I don't know if we like, wait,
Speaker 2: you know what case John Kultfo was arrested in connection
Speaker 2: with the death of Suzanne worms start and you know what,
Speaker 2: everyone everyone was bringing up the read case like I
Speaker 2: couldn't get on stage.
Speaker 1: Can't of course Rhode Island, like I said, it's Massachusetts, cousin.
Speaker 4: There's too much crime. I can't keep up with all
Speaker 4: of this and live a life.
Speaker 1: Well, the other thing I was going to say, too,
Speaker 1: is that they've been wrapping up the trial of that
Speaker 1: guy who traveled to Idaho to kill a bunch of
Speaker 1: beautiful little kids.
Speaker 4: I mean not kids.
Speaker 1: They're like college students, but they're like, you know, they
Speaker 1: didn't do anything, and if they.
Speaker 4: Did something, they don't deserve No, no, I know, but
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, like they weren't. They weren't.
Speaker 1: There's no perfect victims. But it's like they didn't even
Speaker 1: know this person. They didn't even know this man.
Speaker 2: And I don't even think he's maintains death penalty as possible, Okay,
Speaker 2: because I was about to be like, and I bet
Speaker 2: he's not even getting Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think they're trying to get this guy. And I
Speaker 1: think Idaho.
Speaker 4: I just read something that Idaho maybe does firing squad.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, according in March, the governor of Idaho said that
Speaker 1: he signed a law last month that the firing squad
Speaker 1: will be the primary death penalty in Idaho. So this
Speaker 1: guy might get firing squad.
Speaker 4: I don't know. There is too much crime.
Speaker 1: Let's move in to the next segment of our show,
Speaker 1: What would Sister Peg Do? This is where we direct
Speaker 1: you guys towards a resource, an article, a book, a
Speaker 1: documentary something to give you more info about what we've
Speaker 1: talked about in today's episode and this week for WWSPD,
Speaker 1: I wanted to point out in light of our amazing president,
Speaker 1: honestly he's crushing all aspects of his leadership. In light
Speaker 1: of him, I guess cutting funding for the LGBTQ Suicide Hotline.
Speaker 1: We wanted to point you to the LGBT National Coming
Speaker 1: Out Support Hotline in light of the you know what
Speaker 1: we talked about on this episode, and the hotline never
Speaker 1: tells a caller whether they should come out, but they
Speaker 1: can help with those big decisions and to provide care
Speaker 1: in a safe space. And it's also available for people
Speaker 1: of any age. You can call the hotline eight eight
Speaker 1: eight out LGBT. That's eight eight eight ou t LGBT,
Speaker 1: or go to LGBT Hotline dot org for more info,
Speaker 1: to volunteer or to donate, and that will as always
Speaker 1: be linked in our show notes and say in a
Speaker 1: story forever in our WWSPD highlight on our Instagram page,
Speaker 1: which is That's Messed Up Pod.
Speaker 4: And thank you for that.
Speaker 2: And next week we'll be doing the episode Risk Season four,
Speaker 2: episode twelve, and kind of follows Warren Light's Rules four Letters,
Speaker 2: season four, So.
Speaker 4: That's true, Free war Light Rule.
Speaker 2: An exciting day for all of us here at the
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up Podcast with that coincidence. Listen, there's so
Speaker 2: much murder. I felt like the post mortem was just
Speaker 2: like and this scale.
Speaker 1: And there's this and what's going on. I'm like, I
Speaker 1: can't even read. I can't even read. I gotta get outside.
Speaker 4: Oh, thank you guys so much for listening. We love you.
Speaker 4: We'll see you next week.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or
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Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
Speaker 2: and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain.
Speaker 1: And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker,
Speaker 1: Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song
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Speaker 1: everybody at Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 4: Dudu dun