Speaker 1: Hi everyone. I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question.
Speaker 1: Hi everyone, So happy to be here with mister Gates
Speaker 1: and all of you. Very exciting. He's made the rounds already.
Speaker 1: He's pretty much been everywhere, so we're very excited that
Speaker 1: we have sort of a private ish audience with him.
Speaker 1: And as you know, he is autographed a copy of
Speaker 1: his memoir for everybody here, so you guys will have
Speaker 1: fun reading it and talking about it on your various platforms.
Speaker 1: You book influencers. You I know myself about writing a memoir.
Speaker 1: How what an intense experience it is looking back on
Speaker 1: your childhood, looking back on everything that is influenced you
Speaker 1: as you grew And this is really about the first
Speaker 1: part of Bill's life. So I'm really excited Bill. I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed reading it, and it's the first of three volumes.
Speaker 1: Holy cal you have a lot to say, don't you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, first we were thinking I'll just write one, but
Speaker 2: then I wasn't covering things in a good way, so
Speaker 2: that really just didn't come together. And so it was
Speaker 2: eighteen months ago I thought maybe I'll just do my
Speaker 2: first twenty five years where I can really focus on
Speaker 2: my parents and the great luck I had with friends
Speaker 2: and when I was born.
Speaker 1: So it starts really with your childhood growing up in
Speaker 1: Seattle and goes all the way to your decision to
Speaker 1: leave Harvard to commit yourself full time to building Microsoft
Speaker 1: into one of the country's most consequential companies. I'm curious,
Speaker 1: what did you learn going back in time? What did
Speaker 1: you learn about yourself that you really didn't appreciate before.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't look back much because the future, you know,
Speaker 2: has lots of innovation and things that I'm kind of
Speaker 2: rushing and working hard to try and achieve nowadays, mostly
Speaker 2: through my foundation work. And so it was only as
Speaker 2: I was about to turn seventy later this year that
Speaker 2: I thought, no, it would be great to look back.
Speaker 2: And you know, I always thought of my parents is
Speaker 2: kind of amazing, each in kind of a different way.
Speaker 2: But that really grew for me as I went through
Speaker 2: this and talked to my sisters, made sure they had
Speaker 2: the same views about things. And there are various points
Speaker 2: where my parents really made great decisions about sending me
Speaker 2: to a therapist or a private school, or give me
Speaker 2: an immense amount of freedom and more than I'd say
Speaker 2: any kid gets today.
Speaker 1: I loved reading about your family tree, but I got
Speaker 1: especially a big kick out of your gammy what you
Speaker 1: called her your maternal grandmother, and she was kind of
Speaker 1: a card shark and a family that was apparently obsessed
Speaker 1: with card games. What kind of life lessons did you learn?
Speaker 1: I love the fact when you beat her finally, there
Speaker 1: wasn't a big celebration. I would have been such so obnoxious.
Speaker 1: I would have been jumping around and dancing and you know,
Speaker 1: making her feel really bad, But you kind of said
Speaker 1: it just sort of went by, but you were still
Speaker 1: very proud of that moment, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean she won a high percentage of the time,
Speaker 2: but she didn't really explain what her state machine was
Speaker 2: that you know, as cards go by in coachcard Rumney
Speaker 2: or gin or Bridge being the most complicated, but even
Speaker 2: hearts there's quite a bit of strategy. And so it
Speaker 2: took a number of years when I went from being,
Speaker 2: you know, mostly loser to mostly a winner. And I
Speaker 2: think she was a little chagrined that I caught on
Speaker 2: because she never really explained her secret.
Speaker 1: But weren't they that she really I mean, she really
Speaker 1: understood her opponent's hands. What was her secret? Because I
Speaker 1: love that you wrote. Card Plane taught me that no
Speaker 1: matter how complex or mysterious something seems, you often can
Speaker 1: figure it out. The world can be understood.
Speaker 2: Well in some of these games simply having an exact
Speaker 2: memory for what cards have gone by and you know
Speaker 2: what they've picked up. I actually wrote down mathematically optimal
Speaker 2: strategy for a number of.
Speaker 1: These things you did.
Speaker 2: And you know people weren't that interested in it, but
Speaker 2: the fact that if you thought hard enough they were
Speaker 2: is the best play. And that it's the subtlety of it.
Speaker 2: And so the person who's really spent the time, you
Speaker 2: know when you walk into the game you have an
Speaker 2: incredible edge.
Speaker 1: Your dad, Bill Junior, was a lawyer. Your mom, Mary,
Speaker 1: served on the boards of several corporations and nonprofit organizations.
Speaker 1: You were the middle kid. You had an older sister
Speaker 1: and a younger sister coincidentally the same as your kids, right,
Speaker 1: But looking back on your childhood, what quality do you
Speaker 1: think you got from each of your parents?
Speaker 2: Well, my dad was mostly just setting an amazing example.
Speaker 2: He was always calm, he always knew the answer, He
Speaker 2: never acted out of emotion. The world was a predictable
Speaker 2: place that you could always think things through my mom.
Speaker 2: I spent way more time with because my dad would
Speaker 2: go off to work in the morning, and you know,
Speaker 2: when he came back, we'd have dinner and talk about
Speaker 2: mostly what he was working on. But you know, all
Speaker 2: day long, my mom's saying, you know, get up here,
Speaker 2: get dressed, keep your elbows off.
Speaker 1: She was kind of a tiger mom, wasn't she a.
Speaker 2: Little bit uh? You know, she did it kind of
Speaker 2: in an implicit way where when she'd speak about other parents,
Speaker 2: she'd say, oh, they must be so disappointed, you know,
Speaker 2: their son didn't go to college or that, you know,
Speaker 2: he never learned his table manners. And I said to
Speaker 2: my mom, you know, you you told me to go
Speaker 2: to Harvard, and she said, I know, I never said that,
Speaker 2: But then I explained, no, you really did say it.
Speaker 2: You didn't have to in this indirect way of you know,
Speaker 2: what what your values were. So that was an intense relationship.
Speaker 2: You know. I I confused her a bit because I would,
Speaker 2: you know, stay in my room and read a lot.
Speaker 2: And there were period of years where I was a
Speaker 2: bit rebellious and not really thinking.
Speaker 1: You write a lot about the tension between the two
Speaker 1: of you. You say I could go days without speaking,
Speaker 1: emerging from my room only for meals in school. Call
Speaker 1: me to dinner, I ignored. You tell me to pick
Speaker 1: up my clothes. Nope, clear the table. Nothing built, no offense.
Speaker 1: But you sound like you were a real asshole.
Speaker 2: There were there were about two years where a lot
Speaker 2: of I thought.
Speaker 1: He would crack a smile at least at that. It's
Speaker 1: just like, I.
Speaker 2: Don't think I did any permanent damage. But eventually they
Speaker 2: sent me to a therapist and he, you know, really
Speaker 2: got my trust and gave me a bunch of books
Speaker 2: to read, and you know, just kind of explained that
Speaker 2: putting my energy against uh my parents, mostly my mom,
Speaker 2: you know, that was kind of a waste of my
Speaker 2: time and that there wasn't any you know, grand victory
Speaker 2: to be had there because they were on my side,
Speaker 2: and that really was super helpful, and so I gave
Speaker 2: up all that you know, non compliance.
Speaker 1: See also doctor Cressy was his name. He could get
Speaker 1: your parents some good advice and that was basically a
Speaker 1: little to their dismay. You know, you talk about in
Speaker 1: the book to give you more freedom, right to kind
Speaker 1: of let you be yourself, and you found that freedom
Speaker 1: through hikes with a group of how shall I say it,
Speaker 1: fellow nerds, and I was amazed that you got through one.
Speaker 1: I loved reading about this one miserably cold hike that
Speaker 1: you know, you guys were up to your knees or
Speaker 1: maybe even higher in snow. It was just horrible conditions
Speaker 1: and you got through it by writing code in your
Speaker 1: head for hours. Tell us about that and how kind
Speaker 1: of you had this alternative reality in a way that
Speaker 1: helped you cope.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Pasitting Northwest where I grew up, there were
Speaker 2: a lot of great hikes, and through Boy Scouts, I
Speaker 2: got in with the group where we took a lot
Speaker 2: of hikes. I wasn't hiking so much that I love,
Speaker 2: but just having this different group of friends and kind
Speaker 2: of challenging ourselves all.
Speaker 1: Took on different roles, Like you were the fire builder, right.
Speaker 2: Right. I wasn't a great hiker. And in fact, the
Speaker 2: day where I did this software work, they had all
Speaker 2: out voted me to take the long route because they
Speaker 2: thought it was more scenic or something. And we carried
Speaker 2: these very heavy packs and I was pretty scrawny, so
Speaker 2: you know, in order to just not dwell on the
Speaker 2: rain or the switchbacks. You know, I started thinking through
Speaker 2: a very complex piece of what's called the Basic Interpreter
Speaker 2: that almost three years later, I drawn that knowledge for
Speaker 2: Microsoft's Area first product. But the idea of really good software,
Speaker 2: it's kind of elegant, how small and fast it can be.
Speaker 2: So I really put my mind to that, and you know,
Speaker 2: spent about five hours really making it one of the
Speaker 2: best piece of software I ever wrote.
Speaker 1: And that took your mind off the miserable condition.
Speaker 2: Yeah, then I didn't notice all those switchbacks that we
Speaker 2: were going up and down.
Speaker 1: You know. You also write that if you were growing
Speaker 1: up today, you'd likely be diagnosed as autistic, and I
Speaker 1: thought it was interesting that you said you often rocked
Speaker 1: when you were sort of concentrating, and it's something you
Speaker 1: still do today when you're deep in thought or focused
Speaker 1: on something. When did you realize that this might be
Speaker 1: the case, that you might beyond the spectrum in some way.
Speaker 2: Well, when I was growing up, that term just didn't exist.
Speaker 2: I mean, autism was a pretty narrow definition in terms
Speaker 2: of not ever developing full social skills. And it wasn't
Speaker 2: until I was an adult in a Q and A
Speaker 2: session and somebody said that, you know, maybe I was
Speaker 2: rocking at the time, and I thought, well, that's interesting.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't want to say no, because you know,
Speaker 2: what am I doing saying that I'm better or that
Speaker 2: would be awful or and then you know, some of
Speaker 2: the things do fit my social skills. We were slow
Speaker 2: to develop that ability to concentrate for you know, hours
Speaker 2: on end, you know, read more books than the other kids,
Speaker 2: you know, which ended up being a strength that's very
Speaker 2: characteristic of that type of mind. So you know, it
Speaker 2: wasn't like some deficit for me, even though some things
Speaker 2: I had to work hard to to get decent.
Speaker 1: And the fact you acknowledge that you're you talk about
Speaker 1: your neurodiversity and you say it was also a superpower, right,
Speaker 1: I mean talk about that some of these qualities that
Speaker 1: might be seen as you know, as I said, on
Speaker 1: the spectrum or differently abled or whatever, actually work to
Speaker 1: your advantage.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, that term nerd, you know, you never know
Speaker 2: that it's being used as a positive or a negative.
Speaker 2: When I was growing up, it was kind of a
Speaker 2: negative about you know, young boys like me who would
Speaker 2: uh just go off and obsess about programming or any
Speaker 2: kind of technical thing, and that you know we were boring,
Speaker 2: uh and not important, you know, then eventually became oh
Speaker 2: you're a nerd. Wow.
Speaker 1: I think it's a compliment. I think it means like
Speaker 1: a brainiac, but probably not not a player. You know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: Okay, well that's I'm ready.
Speaker 1: You'll accept that.
Speaker 2: Definitely. It's definitely specializing and wanting to read a lot
Speaker 2: about something, which in my case included learning how to
Speaker 2: write software. At a time where computers were very expensive
Speaker 2: and it was very rare for people to have time
Speaker 2: on them. Through a series of experiences, each of which
Speaker 2: kind of built on the last, I got feedback about, Okay,
Speaker 2: here's how you write even better software. So even by
Speaker 2: the time I graduate from high school, I've had thousands
Speaker 2: of hours and with my intense focus, you know, I
Speaker 2: knew a lot about software and simultaneously the magic of
Speaker 2: these chips microprocessors making computing go from being very expensive
Speaker 2: almost free. Uh. You know, with the help of Paul Allen,
Speaker 2: we can see, Hey, the software stuff is going to
Speaker 2: be the key ingredient. He wanted to do a company.
Speaker 2: We actually did the hardware, but I insisted we just
Speaker 2: do the software, and that you know, we were in
Speaker 2: the right place at the right time, and and you
Speaker 2: know built because of that. Other people just didn't didn't
Speaker 2: see what we saw.
Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a
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Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Before
Speaker 1: you to Harvard, you had a defining moment in your life.
Speaker 1: You say, unlike a lot of successful people, you had
Speaker 1: a relatively easy childhood. I mean taking out the part
Speaker 1: of giving your mom a hard time. But you know,
Speaker 1: you suffered the loss of your very, very good friend,
Speaker 1: and you write about it quite movingly. Kent Evans. He
Speaker 1: was killed in a mountain climbing accident when the two
Speaker 1: of you were sixteen years old, and I'm curious if
Speaker 1: you could talk about the impact that had and how
Speaker 1: it changed your perspective.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So when the computer arrives at this school, Lakeside School,
Speaker 2: there's four of us, My best friend Ken Toy talk
Speaker 2: to every night, and these too older boys, one of
Speaker 2: whom was Paul, who we stayed there even after it
Speaker 2: wasn't exciting anymore. We were just really obsessed.
Speaker 1: You would say, out to your house to go to
Speaker 1: the computer lab.
Speaker 2: Yeah nights, yeah, yeah. And so Kent, you know, was
Speaker 2: very outward looking. You know, he had looked up what
Speaker 2: did generals make, what did ambassadors make? What did professors make? Uh?
Speaker 2: You know, he got me reading Fortune magazine, you know,
Speaker 2: and so he had this sense of, Okay, what we
Speaker 2: need to think now on what we're going to be
Speaker 2: doing later. And that was a revelation to me. And
Speaker 2: I'd been a bit of a goof off and he
Speaker 2: encouraged me not to be so lackadaisical because he was
Speaker 2: very diligent in everything he did. You know. So we
Speaker 2: were thinking, okay, we're gonna go out there and solve
Speaker 2: big problems together. And he signed up for a mountain
Speaker 2: climbing class in our junior of high school. Uh. He
Speaker 2: was less coordinated than I was, so nobody expected that,
Speaker 2: but his parents kind of went along because Kent had
Speaker 2: strong views about things, and you know, he we talked
Speaker 2: on a Friday night like we always did, and he
Speaker 2: was going to be gone for the weekend. And then
Speaker 2: that Sunday, they head master of the school called me
Speaker 2: and said that not only kn't been injured, but he'd
Speaker 2: actually died, which you know, when you're at that age, okay,
Speaker 2: grandparents maybe, but you know, people your own age are
Speaker 2: kind of invulnerable, and so that was quite a shock.
Speaker 2: You know. The only thing that got me, you know,
Speaker 2: back thinking for was, you know, when I would spend
Speaker 2: time with Kent's parents. You know, it was kind of
Speaker 2: an irreparable loss for them. They he was amazing to
Speaker 2: them and to me, and so you know, I was
Speaker 2: lucky that all those things Kent had taught me, you know,
Speaker 2: I could go back and do. In fact, I that
Speaker 2: summer I had committed to do a very complicated piece
Speaker 2: of soft for school scheduling. So I called Paul, who'd
Speaker 2: gone off for a first year of college, and then
Speaker 2: he came back and that's sort of where he and
Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time together, and you know,
Speaker 2: eventually that led to us founding Microsoft about three years.
Speaker 1: In fact, there's a scene in the book where Paul
Speaker 1: Allen bursts into your dorm room at Harvard holding the
Speaker 1: January nineteen seventy five issue of Popular Electronics with this
Speaker 1: headline project breakthrough world's first mini computer kit to rival
Speaker 1: commercial models, And he said to you it's happening without us.
Speaker 1: That was a real kick in the pants for both
Speaker 1: of you, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd made I'd help Paul get a job back
Speaker 2: in Boston. So he was on leaven We were just
Speaker 2: brainstorming all the time about this insight, about how magical
Speaker 2: these chips were and what they would do and you know,
Speaker 2: different ideas, and just stunned that other people didn't see
Speaker 2: how big this would be. But still thinking through, Okay,
Speaker 2: what was our role in all of it? And so yeah,
Speaker 2: when he bought that magazine at Harvard Square and you know,
Speaker 2: it's a cold Boston winter, and we said, okay, we
Speaker 2: are going to be in on the ground floor. And
Speaker 2: now it's happening. And so even though I loved my
Speaker 2: time at Harvard, you know, that's when I had to
Speaker 2: make the plan. Okay, I'm about to.
Speaker 1: Go on unless your mom bummed out that you quit Harvard.
Speaker 2: Well I didn't quit. I mean you go on leave.
Speaker 2: You know, so if your company fails, you know, they
Speaker 2: don't like shun you. Oh you had a failed company,
Speaker 2: or oh you were gone for a year. It would
Speaker 2: have been fine. You know, I didn't have you know,
Speaker 2: kids to support or anything like that. And you know,
Speaker 2: my computer skills were quite valuable, so I didn't think
Speaker 2: of it as risky at all. She might have been
Speaker 2: a bit worried about it, because she always wondered if
Speaker 2: I was taking the wrong turn that she needed to
Speaker 2: advise me on. But you know, we started small, and
Speaker 2: then a few years later, at the end of the
Speaker 2: book is when I'm nineteen seventy nine, I've decided to
Speaker 2: move Microsoft back to Seattle, and you know, we only
Speaker 2: have about eighteen people, but we're on our way to
Speaker 2: be sort of the software.
Speaker 1: And the book ends when you're around twenty three. You
Speaker 1: get into your Porsche. Nice nice ride for a college kid.
Speaker 1: By the way, oh, I was a used nine eleven,
Speaker 1: and you headed back to Seattle, as you said, to
Speaker 1: build Microsoft. But now fifty years later you've said you're
Speaker 1: thinking of quote digital empowerment as an unadulterated good has changed,
Speaker 1: And I'm curious back then, Bill, if you ever envisioned
Speaker 1: technology being as transformative and as negative a force in
Speaker 1: society in some cases that it's become.
Speaker 2: In the early days, it felt like a pure, unadult,
Speaker 2: traded good thing that you could type documents and do
Speaker 2: spreadsheets and communicate with people all over the world, and
Speaker 2: it was just Okay, humans do good things, and now
Speaker 2: we're going to do them faster and better. And so
Speaker 2: that naivete I keep that literally until social networking comes along.
Speaker 2: In fact, we thought the biggest problem with computers was
Speaker 2: that not everybody had access, So we need to make
Speaker 2: them even cheaper and get them into the inner city
Speaker 2: and get them into developing countries. So this digital divide
Speaker 2: was something that I worked on, you know, putting computers
Speaker 2: in libraries, and Microsoft also did a lot on that.
Speaker 2: Only later did the idea that some of these technologies
Speaker 2: can actually accentuate human weakness, and you can get people
Speaker 2: who believe crazy things that normally would have to kind
Speaker 2: of give it up because they can't find each other.
Speaker 2: But now, boy, they have found each other. You know,
Speaker 2: for crazy idea A, they've got a quorum. For crazy
Speaker 2: idea B, they've got a quorum, and all day long
Speaker 2: they're enjoying being off in that you know, sort of
Speaker 2: non nonfactual but self reinforcing group. You know. So yes,
Speaker 2: it's only maybe ten years ago that that became clear.
Speaker 1: So is disinformation the biggest peril? Do you think to
Speaker 1: modern technology or what about sort of I'm sure you've
Speaker 1: read Jonathan Height. I just forgot his name. Wait, thank you,
Speaker 1: SJO Anxious generation? What most concerned you about technology? And
Speaker 1: while we're on the subject, how do you feel about AI?
Speaker 1: Is that something you're excited about or more concerned about?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm extremely excited about it, but it's a little
Speaker 2: bit scary in terms of how we're going to end
Speaker 2: up using it. It is way beyond anything that's come before.
Speaker 2: You know, the revolution I was part of is about
Speaker 2: computing going from being expensive to basically being free. Okay,
Speaker 2: what do you do with it? Now? It's about intelligence
Speaker 2: going from being scarce and you have to go to
Speaker 2: college and learn all these things because we have a
Speaker 2: shortage of engineers or doctors or whatever, and now intelligence
Speaker 2: will be essentially free. We're not there yet. We don't
Speaker 2: have robots. The accuracy of these machines h still kind
Speaker 2: of surprise us. That they make mistakes that are very
Speaker 2: different than the kind of mistake humans make. So there's refinement,
Speaker 2: but it's happening quite quickly. So when you think about
Speaker 2: today's problems, you know, climate Alzheimer's, HIV, vaccine, AI is
Speaker 2: phenomenal in that it will accelerate those advances. You know,
Speaker 2: we will have medical advice for people in poor countries,
Speaker 2: will have great advice for farmers about when to plant
Speaker 2: what to plant, better than even rich farmers have today.
Speaker 2: But overall for society as it you know, changes job
Speaker 2: markets and hopefully frees up time. Exactly who benefits or
Speaker 2: how government adjusts to it, and how you know, people
Speaker 2: with negative intent use these new tools, I'd say it's
Speaker 2: a cloudier future. And and so AI brings wonderful advances
Speaker 2: and some challenge for humanity. You know. Harari in nexas
Speaker 2: says that we need to put AI aside and learn
Speaker 2: how to get along with each other, and then we
Speaker 2: should turn to this wonderful magic box since we'll be
Speaker 2: mature enough to use it the right way. You know,
Speaker 2: that's not likely to happen. So we've got, you know,
Speaker 2: a need to get everybody involved in thinking through how
Speaker 2: do we want to shape.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a great segue to my next question. I
Speaker 1: thought we could talk about politics because there's nothing really
Speaker 1: going on in that department. What did you think when
Speaker 1: you saw this whole row of tech bros at the
Speaker 1: inauguration front and Center. What did you say to yourself
Speaker 1: when you witness that?
Speaker 2: You know they make their own decisions.
Speaker 1: You must have thought something though when you saw that.
Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't have predicted it. And yet, you know,
Speaker 2: when you have a new administration, you know they're gonna
Speaker 2: wield a lot of authority, including over those companies. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm not really in their game anymore. My focus
Speaker 2: is the foundation work. So you know my mindset isn't
Speaker 2: quite Okay, let's defend.
Speaker 1: Were you invited for the inauguration?
Speaker 2: I bet I could have been there, I mean, I
Speaker 2: think so, but it was fine. I had been there
Speaker 2: recently for Jimmy Carter's funeral.
Speaker 1: That's it. Yeah, okay. These same tech billionaires made major
Speaker 1: contributions to Trump's inauguration fund. Meta, Amazon, Google, your very
Speaker 1: own Microsoft all donated one million dollars. Sam Altman and
Speaker 1: Tim Cook both reportedly also made one million dollar donations personally.
Speaker 1: So did you donate anything to Donald Trump?
Speaker 2: I didn't. I thought it looked like a well funded inauguration.
Speaker 1: They don't need my money.
Speaker 2: No. I saved it for HIV and malaria eradication.
Speaker 1: You did, though, have a three hour dinner with Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: I know, I suddenly feel like Mike Wallace here. I
Speaker 1: don't mean to. I don't mean to anyway.
Speaker 2: Bill.
Speaker 1: I know you had dinner with Donald Trump. It was
Speaker 1: three hours long. It was at the end of December.
Speaker 1: You described that dinner as quite intriguing and wide ranging,
Speaker 1: and that he showed a lot of interest in the
Speaker 1: issues that you brought up. He's been president for just
Speaker 1: over two weeks, and as you well know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of concern about a whole slew of things he's doing,
Speaker 1: from firing inspectors general at a variety of agencies to
Speaker 1: stop corruption, etc. To the mass deportation of immigrants, to
Speaker 1: blaming the tragic airplane crash in DC on DEI given
Speaker 1: the conversation and given your experience having this dinner with him,
Speaker 1: are you surprised at some of the actions he's taken
Speaker 1: so quickly?
Speaker 2: Well, things are moving fairly quickly. And you know, the
Speaker 2: area that I have real expertise in includes the foreign assistants,
Speaker 2: the USAID work, and things like pepfar where the US
Speaker 2: government has been incredibly generous and saved tens of millions
Speaker 2: of lives. And so when I saw President Trump, you know,
Speaker 2: I said, let's maintain this generosity and let's accelerate innovation.
Speaker 2: And we don't have an HIV vaccine, we don't have
Speaker 2: an HIV cure. If some of the same things that
Speaker 2: were done in Project Warp Speed during the pandemic could
Speaker 2: be applied in those areas, the chance of getting great
Speaker 2: new tools is pretty exciting. And so I asked for
Speaker 2: his support in that and said that, you know, in
Speaker 2: the meantime, we should continue to provide those medicines. What's
Speaker 2: happened so far in terms of personnel and grants may
Speaker 2: disrupt that. And so you know, I'll be a strong
Speaker 2: voice saying, you know, even if you have to, you know,
Speaker 2: change the name of the organization. You know, maybe there's
Speaker 2: ten percent of these programs you don't support. Let's not
Speaker 2: take the incredible talent and impact and through very abrupt
Speaker 2: actions largely by people who don't know this agency and
Speaker 2: may have just heard about you know, one percent here,
Speaker 2: you know, went to something they don't like. So the
Speaker 2: next few months, you know, I expect to provide the
Speaker 2: best advice I can because I think the US should
Speaker 2: be proud of what it's done, starting with President Bush.
Speaker 2: But on a bipartisan basis up until now.
Speaker 1: Will you call Elon muss because as the head of
Speaker 1: DOGE or whatever that agency is, he's made moves, as
Speaker 1: you know, to shut down USAI D He says, quote
Speaker 1: with the blessing of President Trump, and on his platform
Speaker 1: X he called the government agency evil and a viper's
Speaker 1: nests of radical left Marxist who hate America America, adding
Speaker 1: that it was time for it to die. We got
Speaker 1: so many questions Bill for you on threads, my followers,
Speaker 1: And do you think that Elon Musk, or for that matter,
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, after you all had that three hour dinner
Speaker 1: and talked about the important work that organizations like this do,
Speaker 1: do you think anybody's going to listen.
Speaker 2: I'm very hopeful that the Secretary of State Mark Rubio,
Speaker 2: who was in Africa and saw this great work, and
Speaker 2: President Trump will work to preserve the bulk of what's there.
Speaker 2: Whether that named agency stays in place, you know, whether
Speaker 2: every program does. But you know, an abrupt ending of
Speaker 2: that work would really put to the test. You know,
Speaker 2: is it in the value of Americans to take half
Speaker 2: percent of the budget and keep tens of millions of
Speaker 2: Africans alive or have we sort of overnight decided that
Speaker 2: that half a percent shouldn't be spent that way? And
Speaker 2: it is a political question. You know, I have a
Speaker 2: clear point of view. I know great people in that area.
Speaker 1: It's not just Africa, by the way, it's all over
Speaker 1: the world.
Speaker 2: It is it is. It's mostly the benefits of that
Speaker 2: work of USAAD broadly are our global The HIV work
Speaker 2: because of the nature of the epidemic is about eighty
Speaker 2: percent in Africa. And the things USAID funds I fund
Speaker 2: with billions of dollars, and you know, I'm very careful
Speaker 2: to make sure that money is well spent. And so
Speaker 2: I think naively people hear the most random purnade things
Speaker 2: and think, okay, it's all like that. So I have
Speaker 2: a challenge to say to Americans, is this in your
Speaker 2: value system? And you know, does it benefit our security
Speaker 2: or our moral example to keep these programs going? And
Speaker 2: you know, I think people at both parties will find
Speaker 2: this a deeply moral and important thing to keep strong.
Speaker 1: Now, comment on some of the other moves that Trump
Speaker 1: has made with Inspectors General kind of using weaponizing DEI
Speaker 1: I'm just curious how you're feeling, is you're watching all
Speaker 1: of this unfold.
Speaker 2: Well, in some ways, you know, there's not that much
Speaker 2: that wasn't predicted mentioned during the campaign, And although.
Speaker 1: He distanced himself from Project twenty twenty five and now,
Speaker 1: according to Time magazine, two thirds of the things he's
Speaker 1: done are actually in adherence with Project twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm you know, there are people in the
Speaker 2: Democratic Party who will speak out on these things. I'm
Speaker 2: you know, I'm taking my fortune and trying to partner
Speaker 2: with governments, and the US government being very key, so
Speaker 2: I'll mostly speak out about those areas where I have
Speaker 2: you know, real experience. I've gotten to visit the projects,
Speaker 2: I've gotten to meet the heroes, and I'm still you know,
Speaker 2: hoping we can strengthen rather than we can that those
Speaker 2: those projects.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about RFK Junior, because obviously
Speaker 1: that's kind of in your laying. His nomination passed the
Speaker 1: Senate Finance Committee to advance to the floor bill. Do
Speaker 1: you think he should be Secretary of Health and Human Services,
Speaker 1: given especially your incredible work with vaccines and given some
Speaker 1: of his, uh, you know, past statements about not only
Speaker 1: their efficacy but about their safety.
Speaker 2: You know, I I've only had one meeting with him,
Speaker 2: which actually goes back to the first Trump administration, and
Speaker 2: you know, it looks like he will get confirmed. Uh,
Speaker 2: he'll be in charge of some other parts of the
Speaker 2: government that do amazing work. You know, we have the
Speaker 2: best drug regulator, the FDA, we have the best health
Speaker 2: research the NIH. He'll be in charge of those things.
Speaker 2: And uh, you know, so I hope to find common cause,
Speaker 2: including you know, working to have more vaccines. You know,
Speaker 2: we we don't have a vaccine for TB or HIV
Speaker 2: in malaria, and there's some incredible work that even in
Speaker 2: the next four years with Lucke, we'll get a number
Speaker 2: of those tools.
Speaker 1: You have predicted that the chance of another pandemic in
Speaker 1: the next four years is between ten and fifteen percent,
Speaker 1: and that we're absolutely not prepared for it. I'm curious
Speaker 1: why you think global leaders are not taking this threat
Speaker 1: seriously enough. This has sort of been the case for
Speaker 1: pandemics for a while, even after COVID. Seems like we
Speaker 1: haven't put the infrastructure in place to deal with something
Speaker 1: like that happening in the future. And I'm curious why
Speaker 1: you think that's the case.
Speaker 2: Well, there are countries like China and India that are
Speaker 2: actually doing some great things.
Speaker 1: But I guess maybe than in this country.
Speaker 2: We would make them more ready for the next pandemic.
Speaker 2: US is kind of strange because we're still kind of arguing.
Speaker 1: About where the virus came from.
Speaker 2: You know, no, well that too, but even you know, okay,
Speaker 2: in the end, at the end of any emergency action
Speaker 2: like that, you realize, okay, now we've gone too far
Speaker 2: and the remedy is greater than the benefit. And so
Speaker 2: you know, when should we have known that? And whose
Speaker 2: fault was?
Speaker 1: That?
Speaker 2: The vaccine saved millions of lives and President Trump was
Speaker 2: involved in accelerating the availability of that vaccine, similar things
Speaker 2: should be standing by for the next pandemic, And so
Speaker 2: I'm hopeful that we'll sort of put that one behind
Speaker 2: us and come together around what preparation looks like. The
Speaker 2: world is more dependent on the US doing a good
Speaker 2: job on this than it should be, you know. It
Speaker 2: really the depth of medical experience, the size of the
Speaker 2: American budget, you know, and we need to do it
Speaker 2: on a cooperative basis. So with luck, we'll get our
Speaker 2: act together before the next one comes, because it could
Speaker 2: be far worse that pandemic you know, killed less than
Speaker 2: one percent. Now that's millions of people, but you could
Speaker 2: have one that would be you know, greater than ten percent.
Speaker 1: Could you see yourself getting more involved in pandemic preparedness
Speaker 1: and kind of trying to galvanize all these people who
Speaker 1: have such a depth of knowledge but don't seem to
Speaker 1: be particularly coordinated.
Speaker 2: Well, I wrote a book about how to avoid the
Speaker 2: next pandemic, but.
Speaker 1: I mean actually instituting sort of more of a plan
Speaker 1: or is that not really that interesting?
Speaker 2: Well, if the government was putting together a group of
Speaker 2: people on that, either I or you know, the the
Speaker 2: deep experts at the Gates Foundation would love to be
Speaker 2: part of that. You know, this is a multi country
Speaker 2: thing because the pandemic is likely to start in either
Speaker 2: a your Africa. And the best thing with the pandemic
Speaker 2: because you stop it. You have functional health systems in
Speaker 2: Africa that see it, detect it, and don't let it
Speaker 2: go global. And that's partly an additional benefit besides what
Speaker 2: I think should justify it by itself, which is the
Speaker 2: moral idea of saving lives. And so yes, if the
Speaker 2: world gets serious about this, you know I think about it.
Speaker 2: I have great people outside of the pharma companies, we
Speaker 2: have the greatest depth of vaccine expertise and so you know,
Speaker 2: whenever you want to think not just about the market
Speaker 2: incentives but societal benefit, that's where we have a team
Speaker 2: that can make a contribution.
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, I have so many questions, but we're
Speaker 1: running out of time. But you mentioned you're going to
Speaker 1: be turning seventy. I guess in October, right. And my
Speaker 1: husband always says, I'm not even on the back nine.
Speaker 1: I'm on the back three, which is so so sweet
Speaker 1: of him. But as you as you approached the big
Speaker 1: seven to zero, I mean, what are you thinking about?
Speaker 1: What do you want to accomplish bill that you have
Speaker 1: yet to accomplish because you're always I think, striving to
Speaker 1: do more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, most of my time is being smart about giving
Speaker 2: the money away that I'm lucky enough to have and
Speaker 2: building a phenomenal team of people at the Gates Foundation.
Speaker 2: You know, global health is the thing we've picked, and
Speaker 2: so far it's gone very well, you know, because of
Speaker 2: our partner's generosity with the US government being top of
Speaker 2: that list, have allowed us to get childhood under five
Speaker 2: deaths from ten million a year. At the turn of
Speaker 2: the century now down to blow five million. If we
Speaker 2: stay the course, we will be able to cut that
Speaker 2: in half again. You know. So for me, eradicating polio
Speaker 2: where we're close but uh not there yet. Uh, then
Speaker 2: moving on to eradicate musles and malaria, and to get
Speaker 2: kind of an equity where child's life in these poor
Speaker 2: countries is also valued, where they get the nourishment to thrive. Uh.
Speaker 2: You know, it's very fulfilling work. And the innovation pipeline,
Speaker 2: that's a very positive story. The delivery pipeline where the
Speaker 2: world is getting distracted. Uh, and we need to renew
Speaker 2: our values and commitment to these things. That look that's
Speaker 2: looking tough at least in the near term, but uh,
Speaker 2: you know, the innovations are going to come and you know,
Speaker 2: eventually I think uh people will come back uh and
Speaker 2: and do this just on a your value based.
Speaker 1: You're never going to retire, You're never going to sit
Speaker 1: on a beach and drink pina coladas.
Speaker 2: Well, as long as I think my organizing teams and
Speaker 2: challenging teams really can help drive these things forward, that
Speaker 2: is the most fun thing for me to do. And
Speaker 2: you know, do I have ten more years or twenty
Speaker 2: more years of doing that hard to say, but for
Speaker 2: now I'm full speed ahead.
Speaker 1: Well Bill Gates. The book is called source Code My Beginnings.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Bill, fun talking to Thank you Fair,
Speaker 1: thank you, Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a
Speaker 1: question for me, a subject you want us to cover,
Speaker 1: or you want to share your thoughts about how you
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