WEBVTT - Aaron Dessner 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:04.280 Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:07.560 Studio on iHeart Radio. My name's Jordan runt Dog, but 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:10.880 enough about me. Community is a crucial word for my 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:13.800 guest today. He's a masked a close circle of colleagues 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.960 and collaborators outside of his musical home in the National, 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.439 the indie rock out that he helped co found two 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.400 decades ago. Many of these friends make an appearance on 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.040 How Long Do You Think It's Gonna Last, a sophomore 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.720 record with Bonaver's justin Vernon as Big Red Machine. This 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:32.640 deeply personal work features a multitude of voices, including Sharon 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.720 van Etton Fleet Foxes, Ben Howard and Taylor Swift. His 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:40.640 working relationship with the pop superstar began in when he 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:44.600 co produced her twin Lockdown offerings Evermore in Folklore, the 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:46.600 ladder of which earned him an Album of the Year 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.519 Grammy earlier this year. But despite Swift's high wattage star power, 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:52.600 How Long Do You Think It's Gonna Last is certainly 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.520 a group effort and egalitarian enterprise. Brimming with warmth, the 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:00.200 album is simply put a triumph, touching on themes of law, us, 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:04.520 family and mental health, and a complex interplay between all three. 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.840 I'm so happy to welcome Aaron Destner. Thanks so much. 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.640 The album is absolutely amazing. And there's a great quote 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:14.880 from from justin recently where he said it's not really 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:18.440 a band but tongues of lead singers, and along those lines. 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.240 What amazed me was that despite all these different voices, 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:23.440 there was such a unity to this album. Was that 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:26.840 a challenge to keep everything sounding so so cohesive? Well, 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.200 it was interesting. I think that because it is it's 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:31.800 like a band, but there's no windows and doors and 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.400 the and there's you know, kind of this multitude of voices, 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.360 which was always our idea, that they almost like different 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.640 characters in the same book or something. And maybe the music, 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:44.800 which I do, sort of initiate all the music, and 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.480 maybe that's to come and thread and then they and 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:52.080 I think thematically somehow the songs really feel all related 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.200 to each other, and so I don't know, Yeah, it 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.480 does feel very cohesive, which was honestly, it was a 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:01.480 wonderful realization the end of the process because we're kind 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:03.880 of you know, we didn't really it's more about process 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.280 than product in a way. And I think whence when 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:08.359 we arrived at the end of the journey and there 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:10.720 was this album. It was really kind of amazing to 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:13.280 realize that it was it is cohesive, and that it 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:16.800 really does feel like there's this interconnected thing going on 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.400 with all the voices. You mentioned having the different voice 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:21.679 being like characters in a book. I was gonna ask you, 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:23.720 how do you decide who to bring on board for this? 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.240 Is it like a case of casting a song almost 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:28.079 one would a part in a film, or is it 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:30.240 more free form than that. I think it's more about 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:34.480 relationships where it's almost like you know, music to me 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:38.760 is very it's very collaborative and and it's about friendship, 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:41.680 and it's about sort of family and community, and like 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.520 it's I'm maybe I'm idealistic that way, but I like 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.760 to imagine that it's an earlier era of rock and 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:50.480 roller of music where like, you know, people would wander 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:52.679 down the hall and play on each other's records, or 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:54.680 you know, there's a reason why Jerry Garcia was on 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:57.679 every record in ninety seven that was made in San 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:01.200 Francisco or whatever. So like this, to me, it's everyone 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:03.440 on this record I've either made a record with or 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:06.400 wanted to make a record with. So I guess that's 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:08.560 how we thought of It wasn't like, oh, let's get 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:10.760 this superstar on this song. It's more like we just 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:12.880 happened to be working together and it made and it 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.360 like it's a very natural, organic process. He took the 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:17.359 words right out of my mouth. I was gonna ask. Obviously, 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:19.359 the Grateful Dead means so much to you, and I'm 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.440 hard pressed to think of a band that defines musical 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:24.680 community to me then the Dead, both with their fans 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:27.359 and then also with Jerry, like you said, playing on 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.160 you know, David Crosby's album and Steven Still's albums, everybody's 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.160 album in the late sixties. I was wondering how much 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.800 of your relationship with the Dead influenced your desire to 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.680 have this this musical community around you. It's like an 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:44.080 indelible imprint on my psyche or something from from like 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:46.320 when I was a little kid, because that's how I 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.680 discovered music, and that's what my brother and I like 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:51.880 from a very early age, because we grew up in 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.280 suburban Ohio, which was like a lot I mean everywhere 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:57.120 in the early eighties as well. I was born in 0:03:57.600 --> 0:03:59.640 seventy six, but growing up like when I first started 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:02.600 playing music. I was probably seven years old and already 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:05.240 we were listening to The Grateful Death then. And then 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.600 when you start to really play guitar, and you're like, well, 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.600 why can't I play like him exactly? You know, like 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:12.440 why can't I figure this out? And I just was 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:15.160 a big influence. But I do really like I think 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.560 with Big Grid Machine, Justin and I and a lot 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.920 of other people involved with it, it was I think 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.960 it is sort of meant to be that kind of 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:26.960 thing where it's like a band that's very collaborative that 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:31.840 also embraces improvisation, where the paint is still wet, you know, 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.839 and it's not overtly commercial. But it's also I don't know, 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:38.080 and I think it's different than like my other band, 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:40.800 The National, which is much more intense kind of in 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.560 more of like an old family, an old brotherhood or something. 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.800 This is like very much like a kind of more 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.840 of a communal thing. Do you have an expanding list 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.400 of people that you want to bring on boarders almost 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.280 like working within the same family, almost like Christopher Guest 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:56.880 uses the same actors in his film Is It. Do 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:58.760 you kind of want to keep it to the community 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:00.080 you have now or do you have a long a 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.120 list of people that you'd like to to work with 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.600 in the future on the Big Red Machine projects. I 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.960 feel like big Grand machinists can be very open to interpretation, 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:10.920 like we could easily change the next time we make 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:13.680 a record or a project, and I think, I like, 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:15.640 I do like the idea that it would evolve and 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:17.920 that other people could come into it. I think it's 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:22.000 an interesting concept. You know, it feels both wide open 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.760 and like kind of intimate at the same time, So 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:26.640 I think, but yeah, there's I mean, there's so many 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.120 people I admire in the world to play music and 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:32.520 sing and stuff, so obviously if it's a chance, it 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:34.560 is kind of that kind of project where it's it's 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:36.839 the sort of thing you can easily invite someone into 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:39.760 and maybe have a moment where you make something together, 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:42.520 and that's how I really learn and grow as a musician, 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:44.960 So I always kind of welcome that. I was thinking 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:47.000 about how cool it would be a tour of this album, 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.919 almost like a little mini traveling festival, which would probably 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.080 be a logistical nightmare. But would you ever do almost 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:54.640 like a last Waltz style a couple of shows where 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.719 you get everybody definitely, And that's that's actually something Justin 0:05:57.839 --> 0:05:59.800 has brought up quite a bit, and like that, we 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.560 and almost find we want to find the right places 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.919 or the right way to do this properly, because we 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:06.599 would want to have as many people that are on 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:08.880 the record there, and we would want to have a 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.440 chance to really rehearse it and perform it and document it. 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:13.680 And I think it could be a lot of fun. 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.080 It's because I sort of imagined this big ram Machina 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.279 album as like the Last Bolts. Maybe it's because I 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.400 was finishing it during the pandemic, but it was a 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:22.360 little bit like, well, if I never play another song 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:24.400 and let's let's go out with a hoot, you know 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:26.680 or something. So it was a little bit like that. 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.080 I mentioned all the voices on there, and I hastened 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.719 to add one of them is yours. You sing several 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.039 songs on the album Magnolia The Ghost of Cincinnati. What 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:37.680 led you to take these on? Was it the subject matter? 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:39.440 Was it something about the subject matter that made you 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.919 want to impart that those messages yourself? It was both, 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.400 like I think part of it was like the song Bracy, 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:48.560 which is really it's almost like a love letter to 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.800 my twin brother for helping me pull out of a 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.560 tailspin when we were younger. And I think once I 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.440 wrote that song and the words came in, the melodies came. 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:00.160 And the truth is, whenever I write music, I always 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.600 something in my head or I'm singing under my breath. 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:04.920 And I think it was really Justin who was kind 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.760 of like pushing me a little like go forth, young 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.360 son and sing finally, so like at forty five years old, 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:14.760 I'm like making my debut is with my voice. But 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.560 you know, I think it's also I've always been comfortable 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.760 being more like generating the music and setting a scene 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.120 for other people, almost like a ventriloquist or something where 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:27.440 I really I see myself. I have an easy time 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.520 like empathizing with what someone else is singing. Obviously Matt 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.280 Burning or such a gifted singer and lyricist in the 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.480 National and people like Justin and Taylor Swift, who I 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:38.200 got to work with it. So it's it's not something 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:42.880 I see myself like suddenly becoming Mr. Singer guy, but 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:44.720 it is nice to do it, and it felt very 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:49.000 like natural for you. I mean, I'm not I guess 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.960 I'm not a narcissist. Hopefully I'm not a narcissist, so 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.320 like I wasn't like, yes, you know, but it was 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:57.760 I do. I can listen to My Time in the Spotlight. 0:07:57.760 --> 0:07:59.880 Now I can listen to those songs and really I 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.680 feel something, you know. I feel they're honest and I 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:05.640 feel they're compelling. So yeah, it is rewarding to like 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:07.880 be able to do it, especially in the context of 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:11.400 all these amazing singers, you know. So it's like it 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.200 is daunting on some level, but actually I think it works. 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.040 That's good. But it helps that Like Justin is harmonizing 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.960 with me, and you know that that helps. I love 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.440 the Ghosts of Cincinnati, and I love that you forgave 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.200 Pete Rose. Where did that song come from? For you? 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:26.560 What can you tell me a little bit about the 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.680 genesis of that, Yeah, the ghosts. Since he's actually like 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.400 inspired by a screenplay for a film that hasn't been 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.160 made yet, but it's called Dandelion, and it's written by 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.720 a filmmaker Nicole Rigal, who has an amazing film out 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.960 right now called Holler that's set in eastern Ohio about 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.920 two siblings that are survived as scrappers and like an 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:51.000 industrial wasteland, pulling copper and stuff out of old factories. 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.679 But it's a really beautiful film. And in Nichol's had 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:57.599 written this screenplay that's about a struggling songwriter in Cincinnati, 0:08:57.640 --> 0:08:59.680 Ohio who it's kind of at the end of their 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.439 row and like feels empty and hollow, like a ghost 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:04.600 and and kind of you know, someone that's like really 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:09.120 at the overextended, overworked, and I just really related to 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.960 it personally, but also like friends and family that I've lost, 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.080 or you know, I feel like I've lost, and just 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.520 I think that's what it's a bad about, wandering around 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.760 your hometown feeling like a ghost, and you're looking looking 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.160 at places you've been and people you know, old friends, 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:24.959 and but they can't see you. And it's just this 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:29.599 sort of I guess, nostalgic, slightly mournful, but ultimately cathartic 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.000 song about like feeling like a ghost, you know, and 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:36.200 maybe looking for meaning in your past, and which is 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:38.440 what a lot of the record is about. It's funny. 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:41.080 I was a screenwriting major in school, and whenever I 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:42.920 was stuck on a plot point or a scene, I 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:44.800 would go up for a walk and listen to music 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.320 and it would always reset me. I would somehow either 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:49.480 take a mood from the music or a line from 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:51.040 the lyric or something, and it would send me in 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:53.760 a new direction. Do you do the opposite musically? Do 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.080 you take musical inspiration from stories that you you hear, 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.559 either screenplays or just things that people tell you. Definitely, 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:02.960 I feel like I get especially when I watch films. 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:07.079 It could even be like an extremely like whatever, just 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.360 to feel good movie on a plane or something, but 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.360 I will get into like a heightened emotional state or 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:17.200 pull or lift something accidentally from from it, usually musically, 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:21.040 like I remember the National song wast nest Is is 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.320 like was directly taken from a from a movie without 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.559 me even knowing, and not even it just inspired by it, 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:29.559 but I think that the music was, but I think it. 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.360 It often happens that way for me. Or if I'm 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.040 reading a book and you just get I don't know, 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.280 you just get into a state of mind and that's 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:49.480 when you feel music or feel creative. So it definitely happened. Toy. 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.360 Do you feel that you get more inspiration overall looking 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.959 outward or looking inward? It's a good question. I mean, 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.440 I think I find myself in music for me is 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:03.240 a very internal thing where it's almost like my natural 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.000 state or something is to be playing music. If you 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:08.480 leave me alone in a room, if there if there 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.480 is an instrument there, I'll like it's like gravity pulls 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:13.559 me towards it, and then it's like the music kind 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.400 of comes. It's like a it's like turning on a 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.480 faucet or something. And so I guess it's more internal. 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.040 But I'm not conceptual in the sense of, you know, 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:25.000 I'm not thinking outside of myself like I wanted to 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:27.480 be like this color and that, you know, this this 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.120 sort of thing. I'm much more like actually just searching 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:33.440 for the mysterious tonic inside myself. I guess. I guess 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.040 i'd have to say internal. Is this something that you 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.240 do every day like some people jog every day or 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.439 do yoga. Is it a daily practice for you writing? Yeah, 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:43.480 I would say, like ever since I was a kid, 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.280 it's just kind of it's almost its oddly it is. 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:49.400 It's kind of like riding a bike, where like I do, 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:54.160 I just play. It feels good physically to play, and 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:56.120 I think that's how I got good at instruments. Was 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:58.720 just like literally like it's like an exercise. And then 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:01.480 then it's only sometimes where there's something that that pops 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.720 out in your brain or like that you start playing 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:08.120 something in this little kernel of something that feels elevated 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.760 or like that's something, let me like grab it and 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.040 like try to make something out of it. Usually I'm 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.400 just like, we got a twin tinkle. It's like two 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.120 twins peeing in a toilet or something that that's that's 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:20.679 kind of a gross reference, but basically it's like literally 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:24.760 like I'm just like, you know, like playing random, random notes, 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.440 but I have a twin brother that you know that 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:29.720 you're gonna make fun of me for this question. But 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.599 are you superstitious at all about how it happens? Is 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:34.680 there a certain time of day or a certain room 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:36.400 you want to sit in, or a certain instrument that 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.280 you want to use that you really feel you know, 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:40.840 is I don't want to say lucky because that's really silly, 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.520 But you're superstitious about the sort of to me a 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.400 person who's never written a song before seems like magic 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.440 because there's a sort of an element of like you 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:50.960 want to make sure everything's right to get the muse 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.880 there nice you ask that because I'm deeply superstitious, and 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:57.440 for me too, it's kind of strangely like if I 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.200 have a bad uh in the middle and it I 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.200 can be asleep, but I have to knock on my 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.480 head three times. So if you if I it's a 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.880 weird thing, like with my right hand, it's this I'm 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:08.920 sounding like a real weird or now. But like I 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:11.840 I if I think like, oh, my friend maybe in trouble, 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.360 or my daughter's like or something, if I've some thought 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:16.840 that is just sort of like you know, not true 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:18.880 but it could be true, then I knock on my head. 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.360 So but with music, I'm the same way, where it's 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:23.960 like it's more I would say, it's more like like 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.120 if you I like to be intentional. So if I'm 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.959 gonna sit down and play a shaker on the song 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:31.720 on a new song or something, I have to like 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.959 play it properly begin beginning to end, like as though 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:36.760 we're playing music in a room. And if I don't 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.360 do that, I don't have like a real you know, 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.520 like the simplest thing a shaker on a song. But 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:43.120 I have this thing where I have to kind of 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.280 like take it really seriously. So in a way like 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.480 not like this is the most important shaker, just like 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:49.920 kind of because I'm superstitious. If you don't value what 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.920 you're making, it's not going to be any good or something. 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.200 And it's the same with like instruments. I when I 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.640 get a new guitar or a new whatever it is, 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:03.760 those instruments like almost write songs for you. It's weird 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.480 because they have like each instrument is different and you 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.040 feel this like I don't know, it's like you're you're 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:11.199 finding what's inside of it. I mean, I'm not that 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:15.120 sounds like mumbo jumbo, but it is actually like you know, 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.120 like some of the folklore songs on Taylor's record, some 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.280 of the music like it was because I had this 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:24.120 new guitar, this rubber string rubber bridge guitar that I've 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.120 gotten from the late fifties, and it just sounded you know, 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:29.880 it's that invisible string song. It just the music it 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:31.920 just kind of happened, you know. It was like just 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:33.600 came out of and I was just playing. It was 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:35.840 like just kind of came out. I probably should have 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:40.160 said those earlier. Congratulations on the Crammy major. Faul Paul 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.600 for that mentioned another earlier. Usually that's all anyway get 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:45.480 me to talk about. So that's good getting that sort 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.360 of accolade and that kind of attention. What does that 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.400 do to you creatively? Is it liberating to get that 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:53.680 sort of affirmation or does it kind of mess with 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.120 your head in a certain way. Honestly, it was just 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:00.760 fun to see to be together with Layer and Jack 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.840 and a bunch of the people that worked on the record, 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.240 and and for Taylor to win her third Album of 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.960 the Year and to become the first woman to do so. 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.160 And I just think she really deserved it, and that 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.640 was special to be there and we had a great time. 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:18.760 It was like kind of like a very very memorable 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.880 period like hanging out with friends and and she sang 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.800 Renegade actually when we were there, um in l A. 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.120 That's when we did that song and for a big, 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.080 great machine. But I think it doesn't really go to 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.320 my head because I've been around the block and I 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:33.840 know you're really only as good as what you just did, 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.360 you know. And also that the you know, the media, 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.200 it's like, no matter what you do, there's everything you 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.040 make some people are gonna love it. Hopefully your fans 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.520 and the listeners like fall in love with music you make, 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:49.000 but there's always gonna be like snarky critics that try 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:51.200 to beat you down, even for your best work. And 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.080 so a lot of times it's for your best work, um, 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.000 And I think and I see friends go through that 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.480 over and over and it's kind of like, honestly, it's 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:02.960 the thing that bums me out about the music industry 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.040 is like that you that you have to kind of 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:09.920 be like subjected to random criticism from people who might 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.160 not make songs or really like or have it. They 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.280 might be pre judging you. And that doesn't happen to 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.840 me very often. But it's just kind of like I think, 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:20.960 no matter how many awards you win or whatever, you 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:22.840 still have to go. You still have to run the 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.720 gauntlet every time. Um. And it's kind of the part 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:27.360 that takes the joy out of it for a lot 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:29.520 of people and and for me. But it's like nice, 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:31.760 like this conversation is great to talk about the music, 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.280 talk about what it feels like to make it. That's 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:37.680 what's important. And also like I care about what the 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.520 songs mean two people, but I don't really care about 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.200 like awards and all that kind of stuff because you 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:45.080 can't like, I mean, you know, I might win more 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.280 Grammys in my life, or maybe I've already won my 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:49.360 Grammys and that's it, you know what I mean. So 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:51.840 you can't really get too attached to that kind of stuff. 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.840 Speaking of Renegade, Taylor tweeted this really wonderful message to 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.480 you when she shared that song a few weeks ago, 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:00.000 and she thanked you. I want to read it because 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:01.280 I want to make sure I get this right, thanking 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.440 you for ussuring her into your world of creativity where 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.680 you don't overthink, you just make music. And I wanted 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:09.520 to ask you, and this was a question from somebody 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:13.360 who overthinks everything, how do you not overthink the music? Like? 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:15.800 Is that ever a struggle? How do you just clear 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.280 the decks of everything and really just I mean not 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:20.160 to get twos in, but sort of be in that 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.919 moment and not overthink it. I feel like I've just 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.639 learned it over time that like the best things that 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.919 I have ever made, I wasn't really it wasn't so 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:32.080 much that I was trying hard and overthinking. It was 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.359 like they came appeared in a you know, they almost 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.960 felt ever green or effortless, because you know, I was 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.600 making music just to make it without really thinking what 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.520 it's for or worrying about, you know, how it would 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:47.719 be perceived or received. And I still as much as 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:49.639 like I hate to wake up on the day that 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:53.000 an album comes out and read about why good or bad, 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:57.600 It's like I still thankfully can be a person that 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.040 is you know, free I I I in the studio, 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.760 It's like I'm still connected to the wonder of what 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:05.920 it's like to just make stuff and to be almost 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:08.360 feel like a kid, Like you should feel like a kid, 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.440 I think, in the studio making music of your friends, 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:16.040 embracing that process without having too much self doubt or 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.760 self criticism, because it can be paralyzing, like insecurity and 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:21.880 those kinds of things when I just think it's it's 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.000 not productive. I've learned this from different friends and from me. 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:27.959 Justin is really helpful in that sense, like just make stuff, 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.119 don't worry about it, and then like at some point 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.720 see where it falls, you know, And that's kind of 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:34.920 also A big rid machine is very much about that, 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:39.159 like reconnecting with the feeling of what it's what you 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:43.040 first when you first start making music, what that feels like. 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:45.320 Just like this a weird electricity of like what we 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:49.000 just made a song. Wow, Like this is beautiful, you know. 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.520 And as far as like how that song fits into 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:55.000 your career or your the context of music history all 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:56.960