Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the
Speaker 1: Studio on iHeart Radio. My name's Jordan runt Dog, but
Speaker 1: enough about me. Community is a crucial word for my
Speaker 1: guest today. He's a masked a close circle of colleagues
Speaker 1: and collaborators outside of his musical home in the National,
Speaker 1: the indie rock out that he helped co found two
Speaker 1: decades ago. Many of these friends make an appearance on
Speaker 1: How Long Do You Think It's Gonna Last, a sophomore
Speaker 1: record with Bonaver's justin Vernon as Big Red Machine. This
Speaker 1: deeply personal work features a multitude of voices, including Sharon
Speaker 1: van Etton Fleet Foxes, Ben Howard and Taylor Swift. His
Speaker 1: working relationship with the pop superstar began in when he
Speaker 1: co produced her twin Lockdown offerings Evermore in Folklore, the
Speaker 1: ladder of which earned him an Album of the Year
Speaker 1: Grammy earlier this year. But despite Swift's high wattage star power,
Speaker 1: How Long Do You Think It's Gonna Last is certainly
Speaker 1: a group effort and egalitarian enterprise. Brimming with warmth, the
Speaker 1: album is simply put a triumph, touching on themes of law, us,
Speaker 1: family and mental health, and a complex interplay between all three.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to welcome Aaron Destner. Thanks so much.
Speaker 1: The album is absolutely amazing. And there's a great quote
Speaker 1: from from justin recently where he said it's not really
Speaker 1: a band but tongues of lead singers, and along those lines.
Speaker 1: What amazed me was that despite all these different voices,
Speaker 1: there was such a unity to this album. Was that
Speaker 1: a challenge to keep everything sounding so so cohesive? Well,
Speaker 1: it was interesting. I think that because it is it's
Speaker 1: like a band, but there's no windows and doors and
Speaker 1: the and there's you know, kind of this multitude of voices,
Speaker 1: which was always our idea, that they almost like different
Speaker 1: characters in the same book or something. And maybe the music,
Speaker 1: which I do, sort of initiate all the music, and
Speaker 1: maybe that's to come and thread and then they and
Speaker 1: I think thematically somehow the songs really feel all related
Speaker 1: to each other, and so I don't know, Yeah, it
Speaker 1: does feel very cohesive, which was honestly, it was a
Speaker 1: wonderful realization the end of the process because we're kind
Speaker 1: of you know, we didn't really it's more about process
Speaker 1: than product in a way. And I think whence when
Speaker 1: we arrived at the end of the journey and there
Speaker 1: was this album. It was really kind of amazing to
Speaker 1: realize that it was it is cohesive, and that it
Speaker 1: really does feel like there's this interconnected thing going on
Speaker 1: with all the voices. You mentioned having the different voice
Speaker 1: being like characters in a book. I was gonna ask you,
Speaker 1: how do you decide who to bring on board for this?
Speaker 1: Is it like a case of casting a song almost
Speaker 1: one would a part in a film, or is it
Speaker 1: more free form than that. I think it's more about
Speaker 1: relationships where it's almost like you know, music to me
Speaker 1: is very it's very collaborative and and it's about friendship,
Speaker 1: and it's about sort of family and community, and like
Speaker 1: it's I'm maybe I'm idealistic that way, but I like
Speaker 1: to imagine that it's an earlier era of rock and
Speaker 1: roller of music where like, you know, people would wander
Speaker 1: down the hall and play on each other's records, or
Speaker 1: you know, there's a reason why Jerry Garcia was on
Speaker 1: every record in ninety seven that was made in San
Speaker 1: Francisco or whatever. So like this, to me, it's everyone
Speaker 1: on this record I've either made a record with or
Speaker 1: wanted to make a record with. So I guess that's
Speaker 1: how we thought of It wasn't like, oh, let's get
Speaker 1: this superstar on this song. It's more like we just
Speaker 1: happened to be working together and it made and it
Speaker 1: like it's a very natural, organic process. He took the
Speaker 1: words right out of my mouth. I was gonna ask. Obviously,
Speaker 1: the Grateful Dead means so much to you, and I'm
Speaker 1: hard pressed to think of a band that defines musical
Speaker 1: community to me then the Dead, both with their fans
Speaker 1: and then also with Jerry, like you said, playing on
Speaker 1: you know, David Crosby's album and Steven Still's albums, everybody's
Speaker 1: album in the late sixties. I was wondering how much
Speaker 1: of your relationship with the Dead influenced your desire to
Speaker 1: have this this musical community around you. It's like an
Speaker 1: indelible imprint on my psyche or something from from like
Speaker 1: when I was a little kid, because that's how I
Speaker 1: discovered music, and that's what my brother and I like
Speaker 1: from a very early age, because we grew up in
Speaker 1: suburban Ohio, which was like a lot I mean everywhere
Speaker 1: in the early eighties as well. I was born in
Speaker 1: seventy six, but growing up like when I first started
Speaker 1: playing music. I was probably seven years old and already
Speaker 1: we were listening to The Grateful Death then. And then
Speaker 1: when you start to really play guitar, and you're like, well,
Speaker 1: why can't I play like him exactly? You know, like
Speaker 1: why can't I figure this out? And I just was
Speaker 1: a big influence. But I do really like I think
Speaker 1: with Big Grid Machine, Justin and I and a lot
Speaker 1: of other people involved with it, it was I think
Speaker 1: it is sort of meant to be that kind of
Speaker 1: thing where it's like a band that's very collaborative that
Speaker 1: also embraces improvisation, where the paint is still wet, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's not overtly commercial. But it's also I don't know,
Speaker 1: and I think it's different than like my other band,
Speaker 1: The National, which is much more intense kind of in
Speaker 1: more of like an old family, an old brotherhood or something.
Speaker 1: This is like very much like a kind of more
Speaker 1: of a communal thing. Do you have an expanding list
Speaker 1: of people that you want to bring on boarders almost
Speaker 1: like working within the same family, almost like Christopher Guest
Speaker 1: uses the same actors in his film Is It. Do
Speaker 1: you kind of want to keep it to the community
Speaker 1: you have now or do you have a long a
Speaker 1: list of people that you'd like to to work with
Speaker 1: in the future on the Big Red Machine projects. I
Speaker 1: feel like big Grand machinists can be very open to interpretation,
Speaker 1: like we could easily change the next time we make
Speaker 1: a record or a project, and I think, I like,
Speaker 1: I do like the idea that it would evolve and
Speaker 1: that other people could come into it. I think it's
Speaker 1: an interesting concept. You know, it feels both wide open
Speaker 1: and like kind of intimate at the same time, So
Speaker 1: I think, but yeah, there's I mean, there's so many
Speaker 1: people I admire in the world to play music and
Speaker 1: sing and stuff, so obviously if it's a chance, it
Speaker 1: is kind of that kind of project where it's it's
Speaker 1: the sort of thing you can easily invite someone into
Speaker 1: and maybe have a moment where you make something together,
Speaker 1: and that's how I really learn and grow as a musician,
Speaker 1: So I always kind of welcome that. I was thinking
Speaker 1: about how cool it would be a tour of this album,
Speaker 1: almost like a little mini traveling festival, which would probably
Speaker 1: be a logistical nightmare. But would you ever do almost
Speaker 1: like a last Waltz style a couple of shows where
Speaker 1: you get everybody definitely, And that's that's actually something Justin
Speaker 1: has brought up quite a bit, and like that, we
Speaker 1: and almost find we want to find the right places
Speaker 1: or the right way to do this properly, because we
Speaker 1: would want to have as many people that are on
Speaker 1: the record there, and we would want to have a
Speaker 1: chance to really rehearse it and perform it and document it.
Speaker 1: And I think it could be a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: It's because I sort of imagined this big ram Machina
Speaker 1: album as like the Last Bolts. Maybe it's because I
Speaker 1: was finishing it during the pandemic, but it was a
Speaker 1: little bit like, well, if I never play another song
Speaker 1: and let's let's go out with a hoot, you know
Speaker 1: or something. So it was a little bit like that.
Speaker 1: I mentioned all the voices on there, and I hastened
Speaker 1: to add one of them is yours. You sing several
Speaker 1: songs on the album Magnolia The Ghost of Cincinnati. What
Speaker 1: led you to take these on? Was it the subject matter?
Speaker 1: Was it something about the subject matter that made you
Speaker 1: want to impart that those messages yourself? It was both,
Speaker 1: like I think part of it was like the song Bracy,
Speaker 1: which is really it's almost like a love letter to
Speaker 1: my twin brother for helping me pull out of a
Speaker 1: tailspin when we were younger. And I think once I
Speaker 1: wrote that song and the words came in, the melodies came.
Speaker 1: And the truth is, whenever I write music, I always
Speaker 1: something in my head or I'm singing under my breath.
Speaker 1: And I think it was really Justin who was kind
Speaker 1: of like pushing me a little like go forth, young
Speaker 1: son and sing finally, so like at forty five years old,
Speaker 1: I'm like making my debut is with my voice. But
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's also I've always been comfortable
Speaker 1: being more like generating the music and setting a scene
Speaker 1: for other people, almost like a ventriloquist or something where
Speaker 1: I really I see myself. I have an easy time
Speaker 1: like empathizing with what someone else is singing. Obviously Matt
Speaker 1: Burning or such a gifted singer and lyricist in the
Speaker 1: National and people like Justin and Taylor Swift, who I
Speaker 1: got to work with it. So it's it's not something
Speaker 1: I see myself like suddenly becoming Mr. Singer guy, but
Speaker 1: it is nice to do it, and it felt very
Speaker 1: like natural for you. I mean, I'm not I guess
Speaker 1: I'm not a narcissist. Hopefully I'm not a narcissist, so
Speaker 1: like I wasn't like, yes, you know, but it was
Speaker 1: I do. I can listen to My Time in the Spotlight.
Speaker 1: Now I can listen to those songs and really I
Speaker 1: feel something, you know. I feel they're honest and I
Speaker 1: feel they're compelling. So yeah, it is rewarding to like
Speaker 1: be able to do it, especially in the context of
Speaker 1: all these amazing singers, you know. So it's like it
Speaker 1: is daunting on some level, but actually I think it works.
Speaker 1: That's good. But it helps that Like Justin is harmonizing
Speaker 1: with me, and you know that that helps. I love
Speaker 1: the Ghosts of Cincinnati, and I love that you forgave
Speaker 1: Pete Rose. Where did that song come from? For you?
Speaker 1: What can you tell me a little bit about the
Speaker 1: genesis of that, Yeah, the ghosts. Since he's actually like
Speaker 1: inspired by a screenplay for a film that hasn't been
Speaker 1: made yet, but it's called Dandelion, and it's written by
Speaker 1: a filmmaker Nicole Rigal, who has an amazing film out
Speaker 1: right now called Holler that's set in eastern Ohio about
Speaker 1: two siblings that are survived as scrappers and like an
Speaker 1: industrial wasteland, pulling copper and stuff out of old factories.
Speaker 1: But it's a really beautiful film. And in Nichol's had
Speaker 1: written this screenplay that's about a struggling songwriter in Cincinnati,
Speaker 1: Ohio who it's kind of at the end of their
Speaker 1: row and like feels empty and hollow, like a ghost
Speaker 1: and and kind of you know, someone that's like really
Speaker 1: at the overextended, overworked, and I just really related to
Speaker 1: it personally, but also like friends and family that I've lost,
Speaker 1: or you know, I feel like I've lost, and just
Speaker 1: I think that's what it's a bad about, wandering around
Speaker 1: your hometown feeling like a ghost, and you're looking looking
Speaker 1: at places you've been and people you know, old friends,
Speaker 1: and but they can't see you. And it's just this
Speaker 1: sort of I guess, nostalgic, slightly mournful, but ultimately cathartic
Speaker 1: song about like feeling like a ghost, you know, and
Speaker 1: maybe looking for meaning in your past, and which is
Speaker 1: what a lot of the record is about. It's funny.
Speaker 1: I was a screenwriting major in school, and whenever I
Speaker 1: was stuck on a plot point or a scene, I
Speaker 1: would go up for a walk and listen to music
Speaker 1: and it would always reset me. I would somehow either
Speaker 1: take a mood from the music or a line from
Speaker 1: the lyric or something, and it would send me in
Speaker 1: a new direction. Do you do the opposite musically? Do
Speaker 1: you take musical inspiration from stories that you you hear,
Speaker 1: either screenplays or just things that people tell you. Definitely,
Speaker 1: I feel like I get especially when I watch films.
Speaker 1: It could even be like an extremely like whatever, just
Speaker 1: to feel good movie on a plane or something, but
Speaker 1: I will get into like a heightened emotional state or
Speaker 1: pull or lift something accidentally from from it, usually musically,
Speaker 1: like I remember the National song wast nest Is is
Speaker 1: like was directly taken from a from a movie without
Speaker 1: me even knowing, and not even it just inspired by it,
Speaker 1: but I think that the music was, but I think it.
Speaker 1: It often happens that way for me. Or if I'm
Speaker 1: reading a book and you just get I don't know,
Speaker 1: you just get into a state of mind and that's
Speaker 1: when you feel music or feel creative. So it definitely happened. Toy.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that you get more inspiration overall looking
Speaker 1: outward or looking inward? It's a good question. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think I find myself in music for me is
Speaker 1: a very internal thing where it's almost like my natural
Speaker 1: state or something is to be playing music. If you
Speaker 1: leave me alone in a room, if there if there
Speaker 1: is an instrument there, I'll like it's like gravity pulls
Speaker 1: me towards it, and then it's like the music kind
Speaker 1: of comes. It's like a it's like turning on a
Speaker 1: faucet or something. And so I guess it's more internal.
Speaker 1: But I'm not conceptual in the sense of, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not thinking outside of myself like I wanted to
Speaker 1: be like this color and that, you know, this this
Speaker 1: sort of thing. I'm much more like actually just searching
Speaker 1: for the mysterious tonic inside myself. I guess. I guess
Speaker 1: i'd have to say internal. Is this something that you
Speaker 1: do every day like some people jog every day or
Speaker 1: do yoga. Is it a daily practice for you writing? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say, like ever since I was a kid,
Speaker 1: it's just kind of it's almost its oddly it is.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like riding a bike, where like I do,
Speaker 1: I just play. It feels good physically to play, and
Speaker 1: I think that's how I got good at instruments. Was
Speaker 1: just like literally like it's like an exercise. And then
Speaker 1: then it's only sometimes where there's something that that pops
Speaker 1: out in your brain or like that you start playing
Speaker 1: something in this little kernel of something that feels elevated
Speaker 1: or like that's something, let me like grab it and
Speaker 1: like try to make something out of it. Usually I'm
Speaker 1: just like, we got a twin tinkle. It's like two
Speaker 1: twins peeing in a toilet or something that that's that's
Speaker 1: kind of a gross reference, but basically it's like literally
Speaker 1: like I'm just like, you know, like playing random, random notes,
Speaker 1: but I have a twin brother that you know that
Speaker 1: you're gonna make fun of me for this question. But
Speaker 1: are you superstitious at all about how it happens? Is
Speaker 1: there a certain time of day or a certain room
Speaker 1: you want to sit in, or a certain instrument that
Speaker 1: you want to use that you really feel you know,
Speaker 1: is I don't want to say lucky because that's really silly,
Speaker 1: But you're superstitious about the sort of to me a
Speaker 1: person who's never written a song before seems like magic
Speaker 1: because there's a sort of an element of like you
Speaker 1: want to make sure everything's right to get the muse
Speaker 1: there nice you ask that because I'm deeply superstitious, and
Speaker 1: for me too, it's kind of strangely like if I
Speaker 1: have a bad uh in the middle and it I
Speaker 1: can be asleep, but I have to knock on my
Speaker 1: head three times. So if you if I it's a
Speaker 1: weird thing, like with my right hand, it's this I'm
Speaker 1: sounding like a real weird or now. But like I
Speaker 1: I if I think like, oh, my friend maybe in trouble,
Speaker 1: or my daughter's like or something, if I've some thought
Speaker 1: that is just sort of like you know, not true
Speaker 1: but it could be true, then I knock on my head.
Speaker 1: So but with music, I'm the same way, where it's
Speaker 1: like it's more I would say, it's more like like
Speaker 1: if you I like to be intentional. So if I'm
Speaker 1: gonna sit down and play a shaker on the song
Speaker 1: on a new song or something, I have to like
Speaker 1: play it properly begin beginning to end, like as though
Speaker 1: we're playing music in a room. And if I don't
Speaker 1: do that, I don't have like a real you know,
Speaker 1: like the simplest thing a shaker on a song. But
Speaker 1: I have this thing where I have to kind of
Speaker 1: like take it really seriously. So in a way like
Speaker 1: not like this is the most important shaker, just like
Speaker 1: kind of because I'm superstitious. If you don't value what
Speaker 1: you're making, it's not going to be any good or something.
Speaker 1: And it's the same with like instruments. I when I
Speaker 1: get a new guitar or a new whatever it is,
Speaker 1: those instruments like almost write songs for you. It's weird
Speaker 1: because they have like each instrument is different and you
Speaker 1: feel this like I don't know, it's like you're you're
Speaker 1: finding what's inside of it. I mean, I'm not that
Speaker 1: sounds like mumbo jumbo, but it is actually like you know,
Speaker 1: like some of the folklore songs on Taylor's record, some
Speaker 1: of the music like it was because I had this
Speaker 1: new guitar, this rubber string rubber bridge guitar that I've
Speaker 1: gotten from the late fifties, and it just sounded you know,
Speaker 1: it's that invisible string song. It just the music it
Speaker 1: just kind of happened, you know. It was like just
Speaker 1: came out of and I was just playing. It was
Speaker 1: like just kind of came out. I probably should have
Speaker 1: said those earlier. Congratulations on the Crammy major. Faul Paul
Speaker 1: for that mentioned another earlier. Usually that's all anyway get
Speaker 1: me to talk about. So that's good getting that sort
Speaker 1: of accolade and that kind of attention. What does that
Speaker 1: do to you creatively? Is it liberating to get that
Speaker 1: sort of affirmation or does it kind of mess with
Speaker 1: your head in a certain way. Honestly, it was just
Speaker 1: fun to see to be together with Layer and Jack
Speaker 1: and a bunch of the people that worked on the record,
Speaker 1: and and for Taylor to win her third Album of
Speaker 1: the Year and to become the first woman to do so.
Speaker 1: And I just think she really deserved it, and that
Speaker 1: was special to be there and we had a great time.
Speaker 1: It was like kind of like a very very memorable
Speaker 1: period like hanging out with friends and and she sang
Speaker 1: Renegade actually when we were there, um in l A.
Speaker 1: That's when we did that song and for a big,
Speaker 1: great machine. But I think it doesn't really go to
Speaker 1: my head because I've been around the block and I
Speaker 1: know you're really only as good as what you just did,
Speaker 1: you know. And also that the you know, the media,
Speaker 1: it's like, no matter what you do, there's everything you
Speaker 1: make some people are gonna love it. Hopefully your fans
Speaker 1: and the listeners like fall in love with music you make,
Speaker 1: but there's always gonna be like snarky critics that try
Speaker 1: to beat you down, even for your best work. And
Speaker 1: so a lot of times it's for your best work, um,
Speaker 1: And I think and I see friends go through that
Speaker 1: over and over and it's kind of like, honestly, it's
Speaker 1: the thing that bums me out about the music industry
Speaker 1: is like that you that you have to kind of
Speaker 1: be like subjected to random criticism from people who might
Speaker 1: not make songs or really like or have it. They
Speaker 1: might be pre judging you. And that doesn't happen to
Speaker 1: me very often. But it's just kind of like I think,
Speaker 1: no matter how many awards you win or whatever, you
Speaker 1: still have to go. You still have to run the
Speaker 1: gauntlet every time. Um. And it's kind of the part
Speaker 1: that takes the joy out of it for a lot
Speaker 1: of people and and for me. But it's like nice,
Speaker 1: like this conversation is great to talk about the music,
Speaker 1: talk about what it feels like to make it. That's
Speaker 1: what's important. And also like I care about what the
Speaker 1: songs mean two people, but I don't really care about
Speaker 1: like awards and all that kind of stuff because you
Speaker 1: can't like, I mean, you know, I might win more
Speaker 1: Grammys in my life, or maybe I've already won my
Speaker 1: Grammys and that's it, you know what I mean. So
Speaker 1: you can't really get too attached to that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Speaking of Renegade, Taylor tweeted this really wonderful message to
Speaker 1: you when she shared that song a few weeks ago,
Speaker 1: and she thanked you. I want to read it because
Speaker 1: I want to make sure I get this right, thanking
Speaker 1: you for ussuring her into your world of creativity where
Speaker 1: you don't overthink, you just make music. And I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you, and this was a question from somebody
Speaker 1: who overthinks everything, how do you not overthink the music? Like?
Speaker 1: Is that ever a struggle? How do you just clear
Speaker 1: the decks of everything and really just I mean not
Speaker 1: to get twos in, but sort of be in that
Speaker 1: moment and not overthink it. I feel like I've just
Speaker 1: learned it over time that like the best things that
Speaker 1: I have ever made, I wasn't really it wasn't so
Speaker 1: much that I was trying hard and overthinking. It was
Speaker 1: like they came appeared in a you know, they almost
Speaker 1: felt ever green or effortless, because you know, I was
Speaker 1: making music just to make it without really thinking what
Speaker 1: it's for or worrying about, you know, how it would
Speaker 1: be perceived or received. And I still as much as
Speaker 1: like I hate to wake up on the day that
Speaker 1: an album comes out and read about why good or bad,
Speaker 1: It's like I still thankfully can be a person that
Speaker 1: is you know, free I I I in the studio,
Speaker 1: It's like I'm still connected to the wonder of what
Speaker 1: it's like to just make stuff and to be almost
Speaker 1: feel like a kid, Like you should feel like a kid,
Speaker 1: I think, in the studio making music of your friends,
Speaker 1: embracing that process without having too much self doubt or
Speaker 1: self criticism, because it can be paralyzing, like insecurity and
Speaker 1: those kinds of things when I just think it's it's
Speaker 1: not productive. I've learned this from different friends and from me.
Speaker 1: Justin is really helpful in that sense, like just make stuff,
Speaker 1: don't worry about it, and then like at some point
Speaker 1: see where it falls, you know, And that's kind of
Speaker 1: also A big rid machine is very much about that,
Speaker 1: like reconnecting with the feeling of what it's what you
Speaker 1: first when you first start making music, what that feels like.
Speaker 1: Just like this a weird electricity of like what we
Speaker 1: just made a song. Wow, Like this is beautiful, you know.
Speaker 1: And as far as like how that song fits into
Speaker 1: your career or your the context of music history all
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff that you can't really that's out
Speaker 1: of your control, you know what I mean. You just
Speaker 1: gotta make make stuff and and like be an artist
Speaker 1: to be expressive. That's basically how I think about what
Speaker 1: is it about certain songs that make them Big Red
Speaker 1: Machines songs as opposed to national songs or songs for
Speaker 1: Justin's album or songs for Taylor's album. Is there something
Speaker 1: about Big Red Machines songs that set them apart, either
Speaker 1: musically or emotionally. I feel like there is a feeling
Speaker 1: there's like an element of like improvisation and kind of
Speaker 1: like maybe it's just also a meditative quality. At least
Speaker 1: this album, there's like something that is emotionally cathartic or
Speaker 1: soothing about it. But I think to me it is
Speaker 1: like this element of improvisation or or some they're looser,
Speaker 1: you know, they're a little bit looser and a little
Speaker 1: bit more like open to somebody like bouncing around inside
Speaker 1: of them. A lot of the drumming and a lot
Speaker 1: of the guitar playing are pretty like impressionistic or something.
Speaker 1: You know, there's drum machines which hold it together there,
Speaker 1: but then you have like lots of different people bouncing
Speaker 1: off these songs, and I don't know it's at least
Speaker 1: that's been so far, the two Big Red Machine albums,
Speaker 1: that has been like part of the feeling. There's like
Speaker 1: a Big Red Machine sound or something. I can't quite
Speaker 1: put my figurite finger on it. But then I would
Speaker 1: also say that I just make a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: not really knowing what it is, and eventually I share
Speaker 1: these I call them sketches because they're like they're in
Speaker 1: song form and there's a lot of like internal melody
Speaker 1: and stuff, but they're very open and it can be altered,
Speaker 1: and it's really just me like developing a founding I built,
Speaker 1: you know, like a foundation we can build on. And
Speaker 1: so they there are kids where like it could be
Speaker 1: a national song, or or it could be something I
Speaker 1: shared with Taylor that she wrote to or they could
Speaker 1: become the song Reese that it might have been a
Speaker 1: Bony Bear song but instead it was a Big Red
Speaker 1: Machine song. But like I think I like that blurry nous,
Speaker 1: you know. I think that's also part of what makes
Speaker 1: makes it interesting. How is your relationship with with Justin
Speaker 1: evolved since what was it two thousand eight? I think
Speaker 1: for the Dark with the Night compilation has it has
Speaker 1: it evolved or is it generally stayed pretty similar from
Speaker 1: the first time you started collaborating. It's definitely evolved. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think mainly it's like our friendship has grown very
Speaker 1: strong over many years. I think it's just there's something
Speaker 1: very relaxed and like I think we have a very
Speaker 1: strong connection and we care about each other, and they
Speaker 1: don't put a lot of pressure on each other. So
Speaker 1: it's nice in that way because we obviously collaborate on
Speaker 1: many things, or have collaborated on many things, but it's
Speaker 1: like only because we feel like it or we want
Speaker 1: to and it. That can kind of have and flow
Speaker 1: depending on where you are in life and what you're doing.
Speaker 1: And you know, with this album, it was like it started,
Speaker 1: we did a lot of work together, then I took
Speaker 1: it and ran with it, and then we came back
Speaker 1: together did a lot of work and he like kind
Speaker 1: of goes like that in these different phases, but mainly
Speaker 1: it's just fun to spend time together, and that's when
Speaker 1: a lot of things have happened. It's just because we're
Speaker 1: hanging out. So but yeah, I don't know. I have
Speaker 1: a huge amount of respect for him as a musician obviously,
Speaker 1: and as a human being. He's just lovely, caring, personal.
Speaker 1: You do beautiful work together. I mean, the songs on
Speaker 1: this album are so personally. You mentioned brycey Reese Hutch.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's just so much of you in there,
Speaker 1: and and and your life and and the cover is really,
Speaker 1: I mean, in a lot of ways, such a gut
Speaker 1: punch to anybody who has endured loss in their family
Speaker 1: or or or you know, watch their childhood kind of
Speaker 1: I don't want to say degrade, but there's this anxiety
Speaker 1: that I feel with each passing year of you know,
Speaker 1: you grow up. There's this narrative if you grow up,
Speaker 1: you leave home, you throw yourself into your life, your career,
Speaker 1: your new relationships, and then you start to find that
Speaker 1: that things in your past aren't quite where you left
Speaker 1: them there. People go, they change, they pass on, and
Speaker 1: I guess this is sort of a slightly dour version
Speaker 1: of John Lennon's life. Is what happens when you're busy
Speaker 1: making other plans. But I was reminded of this when
Speaker 1: I saw the album cover, which is a childhood photo
Speaker 1: of you and your brother and sister with with your
Speaker 1: grandmother Stella, under the title how long do you think
Speaker 1: It's gonna last? I want to just ask you, what
Speaker 1: is the cover are in the title mean to you?
Speaker 1: What is that expression for you? Because it was very
Speaker 1: evocative to me, and I want to know if I'm
Speaker 1: totally of face and now you're right on target. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it is when you're a kid, when you're
Speaker 1: a child, and I had a nice child, and and
Speaker 1: like the world is before you've lost your innocence in
Speaker 1: a way, before you've maybe been corrupted by like the
Speaker 1: anxiety and uncertainty and you know, things that happened as
Speaker 1: an adult or pressures that come with like being an adult,
Speaker 1: you know, seeing you know all the good and bad
Speaker 1: things that happened when you're in life. I think that
Speaker 1: there's like a I'm always I am nostalgic maybe about
Speaker 1: my childhood and because it was very idyllic, and and
Speaker 1: I think at some point you lose that sense of
Speaker 1: innocence and with it you take on a lot of me,
Speaker 1: and not to say me and my family is still here.
Speaker 1: Those my brother and sister are still here. But you know,
Speaker 1: there have been family traumas. There have been people we've lost,
Speaker 1: and you know, friends I've lost to depression or you know,
Speaker 1: marriage is breaking apart or floor is falling out from
Speaker 1: under from under you to quote that Matt Burning or
Speaker 1: and blood Buzz. But like, I think it's like I
Speaker 1: think this album is kind of looking back at my
Speaker 1: childhood or Justin's or Anus or many of the writers
Speaker 1: and like kind of like looking for meaning and remedies
Speaker 1: in your past and like ways to carry it forward.
Speaker 1: And so how long do you think it's gonna last?
Speaker 1: Is it is partly like a childhood or a family
Speaker 1: or a you know, a winning streak, a losing streak,
Speaker 1: of creative streak, you know, a marriage, all these things,
Speaker 1: you know, and then it's also thinking like even my
Speaker 1: relationship with my brother or something like can we stay
Speaker 1: this close for the rest of our life? I hope so,
Speaker 1: But you know, like as you you grow and now
Speaker 1: we live on different sides of the ocean. My brother
Speaker 1: and my sister lived thousands of miles away from me
Speaker 1: and like, but we grew up so close and say
Speaker 1: it's just thinking about it. I guess it is a
Speaker 1: very it's a very personal thought and and and what
Speaker 1: it means to me is very personal. That was a
Speaker 1: beautiful tribute to that sentiment and those in your your
Speaker 1: family and friends. There was a quote you gave recently
Speaker 1: where you said, of this album, I was using this
Speaker 1: project to really try different things and find the connection
Speaker 1: between my different impulses. I guess my question is did
Speaker 1: you find the connection? What? What did this album teach
Speaker 1: you about yourself and the way you make music? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like I did. I mean I feel like
Speaker 1: I was able to it is a synthesis or a
Speaker 1: distillation of like a lot of my musical you know.
Speaker 1: I feel like when I listened to the Bigger Machine
Speaker 1: this album, I think I've realized I made it for
Speaker 1: myself and I can listen to it. It's like it's
Speaker 1: like an I can drive down the road and just
Speaker 1: blast it and it's like a total joy ride. It's weird.
Speaker 1: It's like, I think that's why it Maybe it means
Speaker 1: more to me than a lot of things have made
Speaker 1: in that sense, because it's just like there is a
Speaker 1: looseness and it goes too many places, but like all overall,
Speaker 1: just the feeling in it. Yeah, I like this kind
Speaker 1: of music. I like the simplicity but also like complexity
Speaker 1: at the same time of it. And I like aesthetically
Speaker 1: where it's sitting but it is. I like to take
Speaker 1: things like taking a new usual beat or an unusual
Speaker 1: pattern and write a song against it and then see
Speaker 1: how a friend you know, can carve into that. And
Speaker 1: that happened over and over and over, and then we
Speaker 1: were able to develop it into an album. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it. It feels special to me, you know,
Speaker 1: and I don't know it's that's the nice thing is
Speaker 1: like I think a lot of people are feeling that
Speaker 1: listening to it. But in a way it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: because that's that's like for me, you know, when I
Speaker 1: look back on my life as a musician, that will
Speaker 1: be something that will always be there, you know, as
Speaker 1: a special thing, which is great. You know. It's like
Speaker 1: that's also why you why you make art, I think
Speaker 1: is because like it gives your life meaning or something.
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that you enjoyed as much as we
Speaker 1: all do. That's good to hear just like an audience
Speaker 1: of one. Yeah, I think not to look too far forward,
Speaker 1: but I've read that you're working on new songs with
Speaker 1: Justin now Is. Can you are you able to talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about those more big red machine tracks
Speaker 1: something else? What's what's next for you guys? I mean, honestly,
Speaker 1: like we he you know, we've both do our own
Speaker 1: thing and have our own you know, he has he
Speaker 1: obviously does a ton of work and is and he's
Speaker 1: prolific and has his own to you, and so do I.
Speaker 1: But then but yeah, like there are some new ideas
Speaker 1: that are really I think special that just happened again
Speaker 1: out of nowhere. I don't, but I think like we
Speaker 1: wouldn't actually know what it is for some time. And
Speaker 1: then also like I've been, you know, starting to think
Speaker 1: a lot about the national and other things. So I
Speaker 1: think it's like, you know, no matter what that's. The
Speaker 1: other thing is like every time you climb that mountain
Speaker 1: of making something right, as soon as you master it,
Speaker 1: you're kind of like back at the bottom of the
Speaker 1: mountain again, you know what I mean. Then you're like,
Speaker 1: oh man, you can't stay up there for a little
Speaker 1: while longer, you know, it's it's like you gotta sometimes
Speaker 1: it's also important to burn the justice says like you
Speaker 1: gotta burn the forest down. And that's a bad metaphor
Speaker 1: right now with all the all the wildfires. But like
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like creatively, I think sometimes
Speaker 1: you have to like let the field like follow for
Speaker 1: a while. And I haven't done that in a while,
Speaker 1: so maybe I maybe I should do that a bit.
Speaker 1: I know I felt bad even asking that question. Incredible,
Speaker 1: but what's that's next? What are you doing now? Like
Speaker 1: I've well soon for that question, but I just wanted
Speaker 1: to ask. I heard you and your brother are working
Speaker 1: on a theatrical production of syran No. How's that going right?
Speaker 1: How that right? Sounds really cool? It's actually a movie.
Speaker 1: It's like it was a theatrical it was an off
Speaker 1: Broadway show that we even Matt Berninger and Bryce and
Speaker 1: I and CR investor Mets White worked with Erica Schmidt,
Speaker 1: this theater director and writer. She wrote the screenplay that
Speaker 1: it's an ad adaptation of syran BERGK, which actually became
Speaker 1: it's a major movie now that Joe Wright, the English director,
Speaker 1: adapted it and directed it and it premiers soon. It's
Speaker 1: like very soon, but I think it comes out properly
Speaker 1: in the winter. And it's a musical, but it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's a period piece and and Peter Dinklige place Syra
Speaker 1: No and it's pretty. It's pretty, like like a easy
Speaker 1: orchestral score, and you know, my brother was able to
Speaker 1: really like do some amazing work on it in terms
Speaker 1: of the orchestration. And I think we're really proud of
Speaker 1: the songs that we wrote. So yeah, it's it's it's beautiful.
Speaker 1: I hope everybody. Oh man, I can't wait to check
Speaker 1: it out. Eric, thank you so much for your time
Speaker 1: today and your music. It's been such a joy talking
Speaker 1: to you. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank Caremon. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside
Speaker 1: the Studio, a production of I Heart Radio. For more
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