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Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. They have

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Speaker 1: these levitating neon drummer boys at their Christmas service, where

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Speaker 1: these dudes floating playing these you know, marching snare drums.

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Speaker 1: According to Gallop, in nineteen ninety nine, seventy percent of

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Speaker 1: US adults belonged to a church, synagogue or mosque. In

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, it was down to fifty percent. In twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: it was only forty seven percent. So it's not surprising

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Speaker 1: that some houses of worship are increasingly going to greater

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Speaker 1: and greater lengths to keep members engaged. I happened to

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Speaker 1: be watching this random worship video and noticed a worship leader,

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Speaker 1: not even a pastor, wearing a pair of Yeasys that

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Speaker 1: were worth like eight hundred bucks. That's the voice of

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Speaker 1: Ben Kirby. He's a former marine, a Texan, a devout Chris,

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Speaker 1: and most importantly, a shoe enthusiast or a sneaker head.

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Speaker 1: The reason I know about sneakers in general is because

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Speaker 1: I spent some time buying and selling sneakers for this

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Speaker 1: so like, that's how I know about this market. And

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Speaker 1: to me, the shoe is worth what people are willing

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Speaker 1: to pay for it. And so from the beginning, I've

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Speaker 1: never said this guy has paid eight hundred dollars for

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Speaker 1: these pair of shoes. What I've said is that this

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Speaker 1: guy's wearing a pair of shoes that's worth eight hundred dollars.

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Speaker 1: Kirby runs an Instagram account called Preachers and Sneakers, which

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Speaker 1: has a very simple purpose. It runs a picture of

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Speaker 1: a faith leader in front of their congregation, most of

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Speaker 1: the time from a megachurch, and next to the picture

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Speaker 1: is the amount that the shoes that they're wearing cost.

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Speaker 1: How much is too much? I didn't start off wanting

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Speaker 1: to be an activist or a discussion leader for a

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Speaker 1: pretty complex discussion about like money and modern Christianity and

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Speaker 1: celebrity and that kind of thing. But after doing this

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Speaker 1: for like two and a half years, I continuously get

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Speaker 1: more and more validation that it's important. Ben Kirby is

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Speaker 1: calling attention to what he sees as a problem that

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Speaker 1: undercuts the intended mission of the Christian Church altruism, and

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Speaker 1: with over two hundred and fifty thousand Instagram followers, it's

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Speaker 1: clear that many people agree. Earlier this year, Ben took

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Speaker 1: another step and published a book also entitled preachers and sneakers,

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Speaker 1: consumerism and celebrity culture, and faith organizations is a solvable problem.

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Speaker 1: As a churchgoer, I can understand how the image of

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Speaker 1: the church is very important. And when I say churchgoer,

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Speaker 1: I am considered a part of the evangelical community. I

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Speaker 1: supposed I am Pentecostal, been in church my entire life.

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Speaker 1: I'm a preacher's kid. My mother's a missionary Sunday school superintendent.

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Speaker 1: So I am a church boy. I'm an associate minister

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Speaker 1: at my church. I am a church boy through and through.

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Speaker 1: When I think about the image of the church, the

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Speaker 1: issues that you're bringing attention to with your accounts feel

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Speaker 1: very relevant. How do you look at the work that

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Speaker 1: you're doing with your Instagram account and with your books? Sure? Sure,

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Speaker 1: thanks thanks for reading the book. Yeah, thanks for spending

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Speaker 1: the time with it, and I hope it didn't put

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Speaker 1: you to sleep, not at all. I feel there are

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Speaker 1: issues that are more important, maybe than all the things

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Speaker 1: that come with preachers wearing expensive sneakers. But I think

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Speaker 1: it's a very in your face issue right now. Trying

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Speaker 1: to make church cool or a different experience than what

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Speaker 1: our parents and grandparents did is very much in the mainstream,

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Speaker 1: especially with guys like Kanye and Justin bringing it to

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Speaker 1: their hundreds of millions of followers. That kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I was as a fellow church guy.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I was chosen to do this,

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Speaker 1: but I'm grateful to have an opportunity to help people

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Speaker 1: hopefully push for a more authentic representation of what Christianity is.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about that for a second. So what's

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Speaker 1: wrong with faith leaders wearing expensive clothing? Like? What, what's

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Speaker 1: your gut reaction when you when you see this? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the in March of twenty nineteen, I had zero thoughts

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Speaker 1: about this at all, but I happened to be watching

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Speaker 1: this random worship video and noticed a worship leader, not

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Speaker 1: even a pastor, wearing a pair of yeasis that were

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Speaker 1: worth like eight hundred bucks some easy seven fifties, And

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Speaker 1: there was something in me that I didn't have a

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Speaker 1: definition for or a reason for, but it stirred something

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Speaker 1: in with me within me that felt like I had

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Speaker 1: to say something about it, and so I posted it

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Speaker 1: on my personal Instagram to like my three hundred fifty

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Speaker 1: people and just said, like, dude, how are these guys

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Speaker 1: making this much money, let me get on this payroll,

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing. What I didn't realize at the

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Speaker 1: time was that there were hundreds of thousands of other

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Speaker 1: people that have this kind of internal wrestling with the

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Speaker 1: image of a guy that's there to lead a church

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Speaker 1: wearing a pair of shoes that's worth their mortgage payment.

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Speaker 1: To see the image of someone that apparently is supported

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Speaker 1: off of the donations of others wearing something that the

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Speaker 1: donator could never ever afford, it's gross. Why is it gross?

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Speaker 1: Say more about that, by wearing a pair of thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars shoes or shoes that command a thousand dollars in

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Speaker 1: the resale marketplace, you're communicating that, at a minimum, you

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Speaker 1: can afford to not sell a pair of thousand dollars shoes,

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Speaker 1: even if it's not fair. And there's all this nuance

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Speaker 1: and specific situations around each of these guys that are

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Speaker 1: gifted these shoes or by these shoes or whatever, have

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Speaker 1: a plug any of that kind of stuff that upsets people.

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Speaker 1: To just ride off all the people that are upset

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Speaker 1: about that as haters, I think is being intellectually lazy,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time automatically getting mad. Anytime somebody

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Speaker 1: wears a pair of shoes that are five hundred dollars

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Speaker 1: is also intellectually lazy. I am in kind of the

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Speaker 1: frustrating position in between where I want to get both

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Speaker 1: sides to question why they feel so cut and dry

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Speaker 1: about whether or not it's right or wrong to wear

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Speaker 1: a thousand dollars pair of shoes, and you receive a

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Speaker 1: lot of criticism on that. I've seen the comments people

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Speaker 1: telling you to post the retail value versus the resale value.

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Speaker 1: What is your intent behind posting the resale value versus

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Speaker 1: the retail value. The shoe is worth what people are

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Speaker 1: willing to pay for it, and so from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: I've never said this guy has paid eight hundred dollars

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Speaker 1: for these pair of shoes. What I've said is that

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Speaker 1: this guy's wearing a pair of shoes that's worth eight

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars. The reality is that pastors are in a

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Speaker 1: position that is unique, completely unique, and has a set

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Speaker 1: of standards defined by the Bible that are different than

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Speaker 1: any other role. And to want to be held to

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Speaker 1: the same standard as every other random person out there

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Speaker 1: is not completely understanding what is expected of you as

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Speaker 1: a pastor. I'm an associate minister at my church, and I,

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Speaker 1: much like Ben, love shoes. My favorite sneakers are Aramax nineties,

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Speaker 1: and I have many different pairs in many different colors.

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Speaker 1: I also belong to a church where we're expected to

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Speaker 1: dress up when we attend, and that means business formal

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Speaker 1: full suits, ties, and dress shoes. A lot of our

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Speaker 1: preachers wear ornate robes or very fancy suits when they preach,

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Speaker 1: and at times it could be very distracting. I remember

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Speaker 1: one time, in particular, before I had to preach, that

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Speaker 1: I was stressing out about what I was gonna wear.

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Speaker 1: I realized I probably should be spending more time thinking

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Speaker 1: about what I was gonna say rather than how I looked,

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Speaker 1: And from that day forward, I decided I would wear

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Speaker 1: the most basic suit every time I stood up the

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Speaker 1: preach black. Then I wouldn't have to think about it anymore.

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Speaker 1: When I think about leadership, whether it's politicians, faith leaders, CEOs, etc.

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Speaker 1: I think there has to be an understanding that, unlike

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Speaker 1: regular folk, the seemingly simple decisions that they make can

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Speaker 1: either compliment or detract from the words coming out of

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Speaker 1: their mouths. Been convinced somebody who's a non churchgoer, maybe

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Speaker 1: an atheist, someone you know, spiritual, non religious people who

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Speaker 1: have never stepped foot into a church, who don't understand

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Speaker 1: this culture why this should be important to them. Churches

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Speaker 1: or religious organizations are the most philanthropic out there in

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Speaker 1: terms of deploying funds, and so there is real tangible

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Speaker 1: benefit for churches and faith organizations to continue to thrive.

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Speaker 1: And because they have such a huge profile, such a

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Speaker 1: huge public media presence, when they do have this moral failure,

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Speaker 1: it creates this erosion of not only their massive ministry,

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Speaker 1: but also kind of the greater ministry of Christianity and

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Speaker 1: the service that's given out into the community by faith

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Speaker 1: communities that's driven by a commitment to the calling that

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Speaker 1: Jesus put on our lives. All that seems like good stuff.

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Speaker 1: And to write off all these organizations that are doing

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Speaker 1: a ton of good in the world because there's a

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Speaker 1: select few that are making it look like a clown show,

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Speaker 1: I think is a detriment and potentially you're missing out

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to either give or get involved, or you know,

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Speaker 1: further the betterment of a community or a society. I

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Speaker 1: buy sneakers that I like that look good with what

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Speaker 1: I'm wearing, and that literally what it. That's where it ends.

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Speaker 1: It's like, I like these shoes, I'm going to wear these.

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Speaker 1: So what about all the people who are just trying

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Speaker 1: to do that, They're not necessarily trying to portray, you know,

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Speaker 1: an image of opulence or wealth or detract from the mission.

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Speaker 1: How would you advise those folks that feel that sort

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Speaker 1: of a conflict with what you're talking about. Well, one,

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Speaker 1: I think humility is usually a good thing to default too.

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Speaker 1: For those people that truly are not trying to flex

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Speaker 1: or not trying to portray this false narrative that they're

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Speaker 1: just crushing it in life, I think they should be

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Speaker 1: secure in what they wear. Like, if you feel good

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Speaker 1: wearing those air Max nineties or whatever, hopefully you can

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Speaker 1: be okay with even people saying, hey, dude, those Airbmax

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Speaker 1: nineties look pretty expensive. The thing for me that's helped

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Speaker 1: me the most is having people around me that know me,

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Speaker 1: that can speak into the things that are maybe my

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Speaker 1: blind spots or maybe lies that I'm believing from people

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Speaker 1: that are saying stuff on the Internet or whatever. Having

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Speaker 1: people around you that can say, hey, dude, you're good

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Speaker 1: to wear those sneakers, man, Like, we know your heart,

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Speaker 1: we know who you are, we know you're not trying

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Speaker 1: to flex on people. It will be another thing. I

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Speaker 1: think if you were posting a pick every day, wearing

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Speaker 1: a new pair of sneaks, trying to have a super

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Speaker 1: curated image for whatever reason, trying to impress people. Hopefully

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Speaker 1: you also have people around you that said, hey, dude,

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Speaker 1: it looks like you really love yourself right now, or

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Speaker 1: like you're really you're really into do you set a

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Speaker 1: lot of money on sneakers that kind of thing. So

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Speaker 1: like it's on you for person responsibility and to be

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Speaker 1: okay with the things you enjoy in life. But also

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Speaker 1: it's great to have people around you you can also

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Speaker 1: validate it or speak into it saying like, hey, man,

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Speaker 1: maybe you should reevaluate what you're posting. A couple weeks

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Speaker 1: ago and a couple episodes ago, for the listeners, we

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Speaker 1: talked with Molly Burhans, who is the CEO and founder

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Speaker 1: of good Lands, which is mapping all of the land

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Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church and then also giving an assessment

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Speaker 1: of how to use that land for the good of

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Speaker 1: humanity and for the good of the planet. Yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: and I bring you that up a little different, a

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Speaker 1: little more large scale and probably more important. Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's what and I what I would

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Speaker 1: press you on is to say, like phase one of

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Speaker 1: you this is that you've brought attention to it, you're

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Speaker 1: in the mapping phase. But the phase two portion of

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Speaker 1: it is to go to the church and say, here's

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Speaker 1: here's our findings and here are some recommendations on how

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Speaker 1: you could be held accountable. So let's talk about what

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Speaker 1: phase two looks like for you, like in terms of

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Speaker 1: the actionable items and the solvability. How do we fix it? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I came up with a few things that are kind

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Speaker 1: of have caused us to deviate, I think from specifically

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Speaker 1: what we are called to as Christians. My first big

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Speaker 1: proposal or recommendation would be to spend some time defining

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Speaker 1: or redefining the mission and vision of their church and

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Speaker 1: anchoring everything to that based on what the Bible specifically

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Speaker 1: lines out for churches. Because right now, many of our

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Speaker 1: biggest churches spend a ton of time on ancillary stuff

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Speaker 1: that takes manpower, takes attention, it takes money when other

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Speaker 1: things are being neglected and so if I can get

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Speaker 1: churches to maybe redefine their priorities and align everything they

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Speaker 1: do off of those priorities. It's just like running a

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Speaker 1: company in a way, we're basically saying we're not going

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Speaker 1: to do anything unless it involves further in the mission

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Speaker 1: of our church, which should be to preach the word,

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Speaker 1: make disciples, encourage community, take care of the less fortunate.

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Speaker 1: And there's a lot of verses around that in the Bible,

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Speaker 1: but many churches are more concerned with conference attendance and

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Speaker 1: music labels and branding, all that kind of stuff that

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Speaker 1: can have a net positive, but as a baseline is

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Speaker 1: a lot of extra And then on the kind of

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Speaker 1: as a one a, I would say audit and radically

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Speaker 1: change your spending like the you know, you vote with

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Speaker 1: your dollar and everything, and if you're spending millions on

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Speaker 1: it's this kind of exaggerated, but if you're spending millions

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Speaker 1: on smoke machines and leather couches instead of taking care

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Speaker 1: of the widows and the orphans and your immediate community,

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Speaker 1: that's a misaligned priority. And I would encourage them to

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Speaker 1: audit how they spend their money, how they deploy their capital,

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Speaker 1: Like if you're spending eighty five percent of funds on operations,

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Speaker 1: which are just to raise more funds versus deploying capital

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Speaker 1: out to the community and into missions. I think that's skewed.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you're asking churches as a whole to

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Speaker 1: open themselves up and to actually give themselves an opportunity

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Speaker 1: to be the altruistic organizations that we can expect and be,

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Speaker 1: which is something that's I think is good for nonbelievers

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Speaker 1: and believers alike. But what about when we're talking about individuals,

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Speaker 1: Because a lot of the criticism that you have goes

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Speaker 1: towards either the faith leaders or us as individuals that

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Speaker 1: are part of the church communities. There's one big one

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Speaker 1: that is going to just be steeped in irony. But

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Speaker 1: that's basically where I live all the time, and so

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Speaker 1: I'm not scared of that. But I would say consider

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Speaker 1: taking some serious time off social media to focus on

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Speaker 1: the local church that goes all the way up to

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Speaker 1: the church leader, but also to the member or even

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Speaker 1: just like the attendee. Many of the things that are

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Speaker 1: driving our culture of appearance and production and celebrity and

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Speaker 1: money and all that kind of stuff are definitely accentuated

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Speaker 1: by social media. And this is coming from a guy

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Speaker 1: that the only reason you and I are talking is

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Speaker 1: because of social media. So like, I recognize that, but

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Speaker 1: I also think that I probably have a pretty good

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Speaker 1: credible position to say that social media can also very

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Speaker 1: much be a detriment, you know, one like from the

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Speaker 1: mental health aspect, but also it skews perceptions about what

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Speaker 1: a successful church is. When you see people with you know,

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Speaker 1: better music or better production or more beautiful worship team

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Speaker 1: or whatever, it can make you want to strive for

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Speaker 1: those things. And you can see kind of lower attended

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Speaker 1: churches trying to copy the esthetic of some of this

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Speaker 1: seemingly most successful churches. And so I would just say

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Speaker 1: that's distracting a lot of us, and I would encourage

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Speaker 1: everyone to take time off social media to focus, Like,

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Speaker 1: if you truly care about the flourishing of the church

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Speaker 1: and being involved with your church community, you should care

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Speaker 1: about the local portion of that. Social media is an

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Speaker 1: aspirational playground. I spent a lot more time than I

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Speaker 1: love to admit comparing my life to strangers and friends alike,

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Speaker 1: celebrities and other influence. There's selling a lifestyle or an

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Speaker 1: idea of what we can be is part of that appeal.

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Speaker 1: Whether you're a churchgoer or not. There's no real way

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Speaker 1: to stop the impact of social media except to unplug

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Speaker 1: every now and then and remind yourself that this isn't real.

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Speaker 1: I feel, as a deeply spiritual person, attending church and

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Speaker 1: being with fellow congregants in person in the moment is

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Speaker 1: an excellent addidote to all of that. So I asked

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Speaker 1: Ben what advice he'd offer churches to help keep us grounded.

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Speaker 1: There is a way to be excellent without being vain,

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Speaker 1: and even excellent at a large scale, versus trying to

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Speaker 1: be put on a concert or put on a light

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Speaker 1: show or whatever. You know, there's churches out there that

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Speaker 1: have really good worship teams that aren't aren't choking you

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Speaker 1: with fog and like strobe lights and such, you know.

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Speaker 1: Or like there's a church here in Dallas where they

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Speaker 1: had they have these levitating neon drummer boys at their

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Speaker 1: Christmas service, where these dudes floating playing these you know,

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Speaker 1: marching snare drums, that kind of thing. It's like, Dude,

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Speaker 1: you can worship the creator of the universe by using

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Speaker 1: your gifts that he gave you in a way that

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Speaker 1: is excellent. It's not distracting. It leads people in a

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Speaker 1: time of worship while also not being vain or appearing

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Speaker 1: like you're trying to win the contest of most produced

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Speaker 1: Sunday service that kind of thing. What does this issue

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Speaker 1: look like when it is beging to be solved and

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Speaker 1: when do you feel like, all right, I don't need

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Speaker 1: to post about this anymore. I'm just going to post

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Speaker 1: about you know, my sandwich, or like I don't want Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to do this anymore. What is your

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Speaker 1: work over? Yeah? I think incrementally that not just because

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Speaker 1: of what I've done, but maybe a shift in the

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Speaker 1: priorities or narrative on social media about church guys have

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Speaker 1: seemingly stopped, and I think for the better, have stopped

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Speaker 1: making as many posts about themselves. Like at a bigger scale,

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Speaker 1: I think a solved version of this is I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is very idyllic, but a church that is helping

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Speaker 1: people grow in their It's like this is Christians, but

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Speaker 1: their walk, their faith walks or whatever, their walk with Jesus.

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Speaker 1: That people are happy to congregate and share in every

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Speaker 1: aspect of community with each other where they're not looking

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Speaker 1: to gain anything other than just to be mutually encouraged

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Speaker 1: to share with each other, to share resources with each other,

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Speaker 1: to really like emulate what the early church did after

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Speaker 1: Jesus was on the earth. And then I think a

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Speaker 1: big piece is seeing churches spend an uncomfortable amount of

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Speaker 1: money on taking care of others instead of just building

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Speaker 1: platforms for their main guy. There's not gonna be no

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Speaker 1: perfect churches because churches are filled with humans, and all

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Speaker 1: humans are imperfect, and so I don't expect that, But

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Speaker 1: I do expect Christians that care about the flourishing church

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Speaker 1: to push for a more authentic representation of following Jesus

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Speaker 1: and also hopefully accountability for their leaders, but also accountability

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Speaker 1: for themselves. All of that will be a win and

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Speaker 1: will be closer to being solved this issue of consumerism

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Speaker 1: and an obsession with celebrities in church. Ben, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for being with us. This has been a pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Ronald, this is super fun. Ben Kirby is

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Speaker 1: the author of Preachers and Sneakers, Authenticity in an Age

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Speaker 1: of for Profit Faith and want to be Celebrities And

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Speaker 1: you could follow them on Instagram at Preachers and sneakers,

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Speaker 1: and that's in not and that's the actual letter in

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Speaker 1: Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank. Our researcher is David Jah,

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Speaker 1: booking by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias,

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Speaker 1: and our executive producer is Mio LaBelle. I'm Ronald Young Junior.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. What's the most expensive pair of sneakers

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Speaker 1: you've ever purchased? A missionary in Jakarta emailed me saying

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Speaker 1: that he felt like God was leading him to buy

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Speaker 1: me a pair of Jordan's. And I responded back and

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Speaker 1: I said, look, I'm not in this for this, but

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Speaker 1: if you truly feel like God is telling you to

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Speaker 1: buy me a pair of Jordan's, I wear a size

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Speaker 1: eleven and a half. And so he sent me yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: So he sent me this pair of bread black and

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Speaker 1: red Jordan Fours, which I think resell in like four

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Speaker 1: or five hundred dollar range now, which I don't wear

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Speaker 1: as much just because I can't pull them off as well.

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Speaker 1: But put them all over to you. Most expensive? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got h