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Speaker 1: He was known as one of the creators of Crump.

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Speaker 1: So to us, he was like a gone at the time,

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Speaker 1: and he would consistently be dming me. That's around the

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Speaker 1: time when he wanted to try to hang out with

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Speaker 1: me and in his terms, show me what a real

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Speaker 1: man is. And then it just started turning into an

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable situation.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm

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Speaker 2: jessicasiveto executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for the

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Speaker 2: Devil the Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series explored

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Speaker 2: the story of Robert Shin, the La based Chakaina Church

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Speaker 2: and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over two

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Speaker 2: decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is named

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Speaker 2: in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Clia Gray, former member of Chicina Church and

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Speaker 3: Seven M Films.

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Speaker 2: In this episode, we dive deep into the recent controversies

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Speaker 2: surrounding Crump. Dancer Chesaret tied Eyes willis from the creation

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Speaker 2: of Crump, Inc. Even going as far as to call

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Speaker 2: himself President Crump, and the rift it's caused within the

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Speaker 2: community to his unwavering defense of Robert Schen and Chicaina

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Speaker 2: Church despite numerous allegations. We explore the complex layers of loyalty, power,

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Speaker 2: and division at play.

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Speaker 3: We also examine how Chez, once a victim of the

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Speaker 3: very structures he now defends, may have shifted from victim

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Speaker 3: to a lleged perpetrator in his controversial actions. With a

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Speaker 3: focus on his public confrontations, including the challenge to Kevin,

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Speaker 3: we reflect on how these dynamics reshape the Crump movement

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Speaker 3: and what this means for its future. And now our

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Speaker 3: conversation about tide Eyes.

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Speaker 2: Happy New Year, everyone, welcome to forgive me for I

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Speaker 2: have followed before we go into catching you all up

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Speaker 2: of what's been happening, because there was a lot that

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Speaker 2: happened over the break, so much, so much. Do want

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Speaker 2: to just give our heartfelt condolences to people that have

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Speaker 2: lost their homes, family members in the fires, the palisades eaten,

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Speaker 2: and just the surrounding areas in California. Our hearts are

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Speaker 2: with everyone for their loss. Please continue to volunteer. It

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Speaker 2: doesn't stop after just the first few weeks. So I

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Speaker 2: bring that up because the fire did hit very close

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Speaker 2: to home. Someone from the documentary. Someone that we've spoken

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Speaker 2: a lot about. Her and her family were evacuated in

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Speaker 2: a very scary time. That's her story to tell. But

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Speaker 2: I was checking in regularly because I was very concerned.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think that speaks to our slow start

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Speaker 3: as well to the year just being mindful of all

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Speaker 3: the changes both locally and far that have been going

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Speaker 3: going on.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely well.

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Speaker 2: As we said, we are going to catch you up

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Speaker 2: on some of the things that happened over the holiday.

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Speaker 2: I feel like there was a lot of things popping up.

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Speaker 2: There were videos popping up, there were conversations, there were accounts.

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Speaker 2: There's exciting new podcasts that are coming. So just to

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Speaker 2: catch you guys up first and foremost, the Lease Sisters

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Speaker 2: are officially starting their podcast, which I'm so incredibly excited

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Speaker 2: to listen to. For those that don't know who the

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Speaker 2: Lease Sisters are, they were in Chicina what we call

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Speaker 2: One point zero. They were in the documentary and shared

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Speaker 2: their incredible stories. Alisha actually got out in real time

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Speaker 2: while we were filming. They have accounts on Instagram so

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Speaker 2: you can follow them. They're giving updates. Alisha's actually doing

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Speaker 2: a countdown to the trial, and I know that their

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Speaker 2: podcast is going to be talking a lot about that.

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Speaker 4: But let me just.

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Speaker 2: Say, Alisha's Instagram is fire. Yes, she is not holding back,

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Speaker 2: and it's so incredibly powerful and it just really speaks

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Speaker 2: to her her strengthness.

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Speaker 3: And even though I'm part of the trial, I've been

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Speaker 3: tuned into Alicia's countdown because she is not holding back

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Speaker 3: and I'm here for it. I'm in full support of it,

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Speaker 3: and neither am I.

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Speaker 2: She's putting facts in those stories about experiences throughout her

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Speaker 2: twenty something years in Chicaina. So gloves are coming off,

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Speaker 2: and so that takes us to some of the other

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Speaker 2: things that were happening over the holiday.

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Speaker 4: Tied Ice ted Ice started.

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Speaker 2: A new crump ink YouTube account. Specifically, he has a

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Speaker 2: series It's President Crump with his first video titled Draining

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Speaker 2: the Swamp and Reviving the Movement. So in that video, obviously, Clia,

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Speaker 2: tell me how you were feeling about it, because this one,

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Speaker 2: in particular, calls out your husband, calls out Kevin. What

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Speaker 2: was going on in the household? How did that all feel?

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Speaker 2: Because I did see it because Kevin had reposted it.

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Speaker 3: So I mean it was interesting because for us it

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Speaker 3: sort of came out of nowhere like for people who

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Speaker 3: don't know. To the best of our knowledge, Chess is

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Speaker 3: a part of Chokina. He was there when we were

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Speaker 3: a part of it, and he was there when we left.

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Speaker 3: So I think for the most part, at least between

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Speaker 3: the dancers, there had been very little to no communication.

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Speaker 3: So when the video came out, it was kind of

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Speaker 3: like a shocker as far as Chess directing it to Kevin,

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Speaker 3: and while he mentioned a few other dancers, I think

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Speaker 3: he kind of leaned the hardest into Kevin, you know,

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Speaker 3: very much like name calling and like, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I think it was shocking to hear the video, but

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Speaker 3: I understood the motivations behind. So the best of my knowledge,

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Speaker 3: why Chess had put a video out because I know

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Speaker 3: he and you know the Seven M and Chkina group,

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Speaker 3: I think they are feeling attacked in a way, so

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Speaker 3: that was their means to defend their actions, defend their choices.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's something that Chess himself has said

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Speaker 3: was people have been talking so much mess about me

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Speaker 3: and my family. This is my first time actually responding

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Speaker 3: to the drama. In his mind, it's hard because it's

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Speaker 3: like this was not an attack on your character. This

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Speaker 3: was not an attack on your beliefs as far as

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Speaker 3: Christianity goes. I think it was just us giving our

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Speaker 3: experiences and telling our truth to.

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Speaker 4: The public, you know, the saying like a hit doggle holler.

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Speaker 3: I think that was the feeling that we felt when

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Speaker 3: we saw these videos, as far as like, you're trying

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Speaker 3: to fiercely defend something that the vast majority of us

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Speaker 3: see as problematic, potentially dangerous, and harmful to the community.

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Speaker 3: So the series of videos that he's come out like,

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Speaker 3: I see it as a cry for help, because it's like,

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Speaker 3: you guys are absolutely backed into a corner, as you

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Speaker 3: should be, because these things have been harming a community,

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Speaker 3: whether you are a willing participant of it or not.

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Speaker 4: That's what it is doing. It is causing harm for sure.

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Speaker 2: And so I think to go back for those that

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Speaker 2: are not familiar with Chez tied Is as willis, he

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Speaker 2: is one of the creators of.

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Speaker 4: Crump, which has been debated.

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Speaker 3: That's a very hot topic within the Crump community, which.

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Speaker 2: Is where my hesitation to continue was. But he is

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Speaker 2: also a or was a member of seven m in Choicina,

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Speaker 2: and I think just for the question I am going

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Speaker 2: to read something because I do think it just is

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Speaker 2: in context. But one of the comments on that first

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Speaker 2: video was from someone that says, I think tied Is'

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Speaker 2: is one of the best answers in the world. I'm

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Speaker 2: a true fan since the beginning. And with that said,

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Speaker 2: I hope you're not in a cult, brother, I pray

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Speaker 2: that you find Christ, the real Jesus and not that

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Speaker 2: cult leader from Chakaina. He's preaching the word wrong and

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Speaker 2: giving the real Christians a bad look. I love you, bro, godspeed,

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Speaker 2: which I think is a very beautiful sentiment. Absolutely, tied

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Speaker 2: I's actually responded to that message that says, don't believe

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Speaker 2: everything you hear on streaming platforms and you will be

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Speaker 2: all right. And you don't go to Chakaina, so you

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Speaker 2: don't know the words that's preached. So it gives me

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Speaker 2: some sort of indication that he still is in Chakaina. Absolutely,

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Speaker 2: that's my assumption based on the comment.

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Speaker 3: I think the reason why I also strongly believe he

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Speaker 3: is still a part of it is something that I

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Speaker 3: heard out of Chesz's mouth was this is the hill

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Speaker 3: I'm going to die on. So despite any new evidence,

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Speaker 3: despite any revealing of things, that are problematic. That is,

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Speaker 3: according to him, the hill that he wants to die on.

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Speaker 2: And also, you know, we did see that video come

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Speaker 2: out that Kendra also known as Ko as kind of

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Speaker 2: this new YouTube series as well Kendra as his wife.

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Speaker 2: She's doing like a little talk show. Her first guest

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Speaker 2: was Miranda and in that they talk about did you

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Speaker 2: not see this? I did not see this? Oh oh okay,

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Speaker 2: she's got this kind of new talk show a thing

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Speaker 2: that they're doing. She brings on Miranda and in that

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Speaker 2: they're just kind of answering questions. And here's the thing,

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Speaker 2: as we're going to go into talking about Tied Eyes. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: throughout this process, I haven't heard a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: good things about this man. So when we first were

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Speaker 2: made aware of seven M and Chokaina and we started

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Speaker 2: to investigate this, we actually started to look a lot

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Speaker 2: more into Tight Eyes because we're hearing a lot about

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Speaker 2: this person, and not in a good way. We were

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Speaker 2: hearing about how he was in a previous church that

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Speaker 2: ended up being a cult. Angela actually spoke about that

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Speaker 2: one that was the same one that James was in,

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Speaker 2: and there was a public apology that was going around

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Speaker 2: of him apologizing to the Crumb community for believing in

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Speaker 2: this person that was a wrongdoer, And so we started

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Speaker 2: to investigate him because we're like, wait, there's something here,

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Speaker 2: But out of respect to the people that were coming

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Speaker 2: forward to share their stories about Chicina and seven M,

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Speaker 2: we wanted to make sure that we were focusing our

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Speaker 2: attention on that big, bad wolf. But note I say

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Speaker 2: that because there was a lot that was being said

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Speaker 2: about Chaz and there was a lot of very controversial,

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Speaker 2: damning things, and it's tricky because you do need to

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Speaker 2: have proof, you need to be able to coroborate people's stories,

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Speaker 2: and I think that that is definitely something that's worth exploring,

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Speaker 2: because we heard from a number of different people before

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Speaker 2: I even met Ukulia of allegations against him that deserve

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Speaker 2: to be looked into further. Now that said, we didn't

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Speaker 2: go down that path, but there's a lot to be

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Speaker 2: explored there. Every time I've ever heard about Kendra, everyone

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Speaker 2: always talks about how kind she is, how funny, and

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Speaker 2: how sweet, and majority like a larger percentage is how

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Speaker 2: much of a good person that she is. She's incredibly

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Speaker 2: talented dancer, So you can also see the two very

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Speaker 2: different approaches on their YouTube channels. Hers is this sweet

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Speaker 2: talk show she has Miranda on and it just is

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Speaker 2: them trying to be playful and address certain things, but

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Speaker 2: more in a comedic way. It is a bit performative,

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Speaker 2: in my opinion. But they talk about dying to themselves

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Speaker 2: and they show this old photo of themselves, which again

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Speaker 2: allegedly that photo is from a time that they were

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Speaker 2: in Chakina. So it's a little odd to say, oh,

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Speaker 2: look at our old selves, we died to them. Just

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Speaker 2: two different approaches. And I think part of talking about

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Speaker 2: ted Eyes is for me feeling a responsibility almost.

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Speaker 4: For Kendra is just like it hurts my heart for her.

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Speaker 3: I agree, because in Chicina Kendra and I had spent

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Speaker 3: a lot of time together. I didn't know her prior

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Speaker 3: to Shakaina, and we do not speak anymore now. And

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Speaker 3: I just feel so bad. I really do. I feel bad.

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Speaker 3: I feel sorry. I feel as though there are certain

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Speaker 3: things that have been like put in her face almost

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Speaker 3: and it's just like, gosh, I wish you could see it,

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Speaker 3: because you deserve so much more. There's so much that

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Speaker 3: has been taken away from you. And I had told

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Speaker 3: her in a text message like there are people who

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Speaker 3: are lying to your face. When I left Chakina, I

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Speaker 3: told her, if you want to have a conversation, like,

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Speaker 3: let's talk.

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Speaker 4: If not, I understand.

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Speaker 3: And I hadn't heard from her until things had come

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Speaker 3: out about Chuz, which I think every few months or

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Speaker 3: so something will come out about her husband, and it

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Speaker 3: was like she had made me public enemy number one,

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Speaker 3: because I think she had just felt like I was

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Speaker 3: attacking her husband and making baseless claims, even though, like you,

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Speaker 3: there are so many stories out there that have been

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Speaker 3: circulating four years about this man, and it's just like,

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Speaker 3: how many stories does there need to be until we

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Speaker 3: finally think, okay, maybe there's some merit to this for.

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Speaker 2: A little more context too. So, as I mentioned, we

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Speaker 2: had spoken to a lot of people and ultimately decided

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Speaker 2: not to go down that path, but we do and

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Speaker 2: did have some people that we spoke to that shared

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Speaker 2: with us text exchange dms that were coming from Tied Eyes,

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Speaker 2: and that was exactly what you were saying. It was

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Speaker 2: just very persistent. And it's in a way that as

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Speaker 2: we're reading through these this person is clearly uncomfortable. So

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Speaker 2: we are actually going to bring her onto the podcast

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Speaker 2: a little bit later, because the whole point of this

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Speaker 2: is to be able to create a safe space and

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Speaker 2: a platform for people to share their own experiences and

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Speaker 2: instead of us talking about it, we want them to

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Speaker 2: be able to use their voice.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, And on reading those messages, which we will

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Speaker 3: get into a little bit more, I found them to

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Speaker 3: be extremely inappropriate, especially considering his position in the community.

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Speaker 3: But I think even going back a little bit into

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Speaker 3: like Crump as a whole and the role that Chez

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Speaker 3: has played in Crump and this new creation of Crump, Inc.

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Speaker 3: And how that rubbed a lot of people the wrong

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Speaker 3: way in the community because they felt as though Chez

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Speaker 3: was altering the history of Crump, creating his own narrative

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Speaker 3: on Crump, and just selling out the art as a

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Speaker 3: whole to some other man because they had into it

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Speaker 3: and saw that Crump Inc. Was owned by not only

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Speaker 3: Chez but also Robert am I correct. Was that on

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Speaker 3: the paperwork?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's some documents out there, but the accounts had

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Speaker 2: put it out there. When that happened, I remember the

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Speaker 2: community being a bit upset. That's why they were made

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Speaker 2: aware of it. But what do you think like motivated

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Speaker 2: Chez to create Crump, Inc. And like, do you think

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Speaker 2: that was maybe a Robert thing of like how to

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Speaker 2: monetize this?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was a collaborative if I had

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Speaker 3: to guess.

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Speaker 4: Actually, I was there at.

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Speaker 3: A dinner party when Robert talked about this with Chez,

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Speaker 3: because Chez was talking about how in the past people

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Speaker 3: have taken advantage of Crump and since they didn't know

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Speaker 3: anything about business, they didn't know how to gain any

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Speaker 3: ownership or go back and collect earnings that were rightfully theirs,

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Speaker 3: and so I remember Robert saying that they were going

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Speaker 3: to start a whole new thing. I think their big

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Speaker 3: idea was to create like a Crump school. That was

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Speaker 3: their big dream to do one of these days. So

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Speaker 3: I believe that Crump Inc. Could be the beginning of

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Speaker 3: that potential venture. But I think it was to gain

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Speaker 3: some sort of ownership over the Crump name and an

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Speaker 3: attempt at controlling the narrative within the Crump community, which

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Speaker 3: is really difficult. And I think just because of how

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Speaker 3: widespread Crump is. It's like a worldwide art that is

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Speaker 3: celebrated in multiple different countries, which I didn't notice until

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Speaker 3: I started leaning more into the Crump community. I believe

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Speaker 3: it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way because

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Speaker 3: it shouldn't be controlled by one story, because it was

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Speaker 3: created by such a wide group of people and such

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Speaker 3: a wide range of people. It's very alarming. After the break,

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Speaker 3: we continue our conversation. This is forgive me for I

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Speaker 3: have followed. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now

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Speaker 2: back to our conversation. So you came into Chicaina a

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Speaker 2: little bit later. All the dancers that we talk about

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Speaker 2: were already there. What was that like, did Kevin have

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Speaker 2: a relationship with Eyes from the past? Like, what was

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Speaker 2: that like coming in meeting Ko? You said you hadn't

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Speaker 2: known her beforehand. Can you just kind of take us

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Speaker 2: back and bring us back into that time of when

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Speaker 2: you guys all met and started hanging out?

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Speaker 4: Really? Yeah, absolutely so.

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Speaker 3: Prior to Shakaina, Kevin had relationships with all of the

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Speaker 3: dancers in there. They either are friends or war friends,

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Speaker 3: or he had known them for a number.

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Speaker 4: Of years, particularly with Chez.

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Speaker 3: I know that Kevin and Chez had always had like

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Speaker 3: off and on type of friendship.

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Speaker 4: I know that they had a falling out.

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Speaker 3: There were multiple reasons why, but I know there was

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Speaker 3: one big reason as far as like Kevin wanted to

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Speaker 3: be on a TV show, or he would just do

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Speaker 3: something for Kevin's own personal career that Chess didn't like

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Speaker 3: or agree with and that had caused falling out in

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Speaker 3: the past.

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Speaker 4: They would fall out.

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Speaker 3: They would, you know, for the power of community, let's

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Speaker 3: just let's just bury it and be friends again, and

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Speaker 3: for the for the good of Crump, let's just put

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Speaker 3: aside our differences. And I think when we had joined Chakaina,

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Speaker 3: they were at a moment where they were cordial, but

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Speaker 3: they weren't like friends in the way that they used

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Speaker 3: to be through Chikina. I think that friendship developed more

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Speaker 3: because we're all going to the same church. We're all

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Speaker 3: working on the same content, like we are, you know,

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Speaker 3: banding together, and you know, that relationship was able to

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Speaker 3: thrive again because they were all on the same business page.

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Speaker 3: I think a lot of the concept of like community

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Speaker 3: with dance in general or CRUMP was kind of pushed

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Speaker 3: aside for the Chakaina community, for the seven m community.

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Speaker 3: And now that we have left, I found that this

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Speaker 3: battle that we're facing with the dancers that are still there,

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Speaker 3: it just feels like, this isn't you trying to stand

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Speaker 3: up for your community. This is you trying to stand

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Speaker 3: up for Chakaina, Robert and the things you're being taught.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which, again, as I'm watching these videos that ty

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Speaker 2: Diys has put out, there's so much in it that

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Speaker 2: like breaks my heart but also just feels like he's

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Speaker 2: regurgitating teachings.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: You talked about, you know, being at that dinner and

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Speaker 2: them trying to monetize Crump and maybe turn it into

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Speaker 2: a school, and it just brought me back to the

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Speaker 2: sermon that we heard and Robert was expressing how he

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Speaker 2: and again this is me paraphrasing, but it's him expressing

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Speaker 2: how he feels attacked.

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Speaker 4: But that's okay because he's going to monetize this. He's

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Speaker 4: going to monetize this moment.

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Speaker 2: This is post learning that there was a documentary in development,

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Speaker 2: and you know he talks about it feels like he's like,

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Speaker 2: how committed are you to me? And in that sermon,

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Speaker 2: someone received a text message and they referred to Robert

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Speaker 2: as Robert his name versus what I correct me if

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Speaker 2: I'm wrong, doc or daw Pastester, and Robert is livid

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Speaker 2: in this exchange to put it mildly, mildly like just saying, like,

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Speaker 2: who the hell do you think you are calling me Robert?

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Speaker 2: If someone called my father by the first name again

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Speaker 2: I'm paraphrasing, I would slit their throat. This is said

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Speaker 2: on the pulpit, and you can hear people just yes

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Speaker 2: and agree and agree, agree an agreement. I think when

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Speaker 2: he said the slit the throat thing, it kind of

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Speaker 2: got quiet for a second, but like he's trying to

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Speaker 2: make sense of this, But it also starts to create

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Speaker 2: this like warrior, like are you gonna let people talk

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Speaker 2: about me like that? Are you gonna let them say

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Speaker 2: my name like that? It starts to feel like how

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Speaker 2: loyal are you to me? And you know what kind

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Speaker 2: of cross will you bear to protect me? And I

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Speaker 2: kind of feel like some of what tight Eyes is

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Speaker 2: doing is him really just like owning it. He says

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Speaker 2: it in one of those videos where he's like, if

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Speaker 2: I'm on the darks side, I'm on the dark side

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Speaker 2: again not a direct quote. If I'm on the light

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Speaker 2: side and walking in the light of God, I'm there.

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Speaker 2: I'm fully I'm fully in it and unapologetically all in.

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Speaker 2: And I start to see those parallels as I'm like seeing.

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Speaker 4: This that it's hard.

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Speaker 2: It's hard because I watch those I get frustrated because

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Speaker 2: I'm like, why is he coming after people like that.

377
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 2: That's not someone that is uniting people. That's not someone

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Speaker 2: that's walking in the light of God and his teachings.

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Speaker 2: But then he had gone and put my girl's name

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Speaker 2: in his mouth. This video that came out a couple

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Speaker 2: of days ago. He started to talk about Khaliah. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: do you.

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Speaker 4: Want to talk about that? Because I said, what is

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Speaker 4: going on?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Sorry, the hoops are coming off for Bob and Fro

387
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Speaker 2: over here? What's happening?

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Speaker 4: Don't mess with Bob and fro.

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Speaker 3: He had gone on a rampage talking about you know,

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Speaker 3: oh the video you mentioned before, as far as like

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Speaker 3: the Swamp files, the Crump community. He wants to purge

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Speaker 3: and cleanse the Crump community. And so I would assume, like, okay,

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Speaker 3: so you are directly speaking to the Crump community. So

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Speaker 3: then for you to turn around and then mention me

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Speaker 3: and on like a side video to mention me and

396
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Speaker 3: other podcasters that like, yes, I'm Crump community adjacent, but

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Speaker 3: I don't Crump. I'm not a leader within that community.

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Speaker 3: I kind of have little to do with this conversation

399
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Speaker 3: that you're having as a whole.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: The video that he had spoken about me was mentioning

402
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Speaker 3: from my perspective, women who are speaking out against inappropriate

403
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 3: actions of him and possibly other men. So I know,

404
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 3: based on like experiences and history, that when a man

405
00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 3: is accused of doing something, either some sort of sectual

406
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,640
Speaker 3: assaults or domestic violence, their go to is to try

407
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Speaker 3: to discredit the person who is ringing.

408
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Speaker 4: The alarm bells.

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Speaker 3: And so for me, I was just like, Okay, the

410
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Speaker 3: reason why you're directing this at me is because it

411
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Speaker 3: feels like there's almost a fear there that if the

412
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Speaker 3: alarms that are being rang are taken seriously, you know,

413
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Speaker 3: it is absolutely bad for you and your brand. But

414
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Speaker 3: beyond that, let's take a look at the actions that

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Speaker 3: were happening, the stories that were being told, and see

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Speaker 3: if this is something that we would even want within

417
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Speaker 3: our communities. I felt like, Okay, I'm doing something right

418
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Speaker 3: because of the way that I'm seeing you respond, which

419
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Speaker 3: reminded me of when I decided to leave Chakaina. Part

420
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Speaker 3: of that, like I had already built up, like Okay,

421
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Speaker 3: I don't like how I'm being treated. I don't like

422
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Speaker 3: where these things are going. I feel like I'm being

423
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Speaker 3: lied to. And then seeing how Robert reacted to the

424
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Speaker 3: accusations made me go, aha, that is not how.

425
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Speaker 4: An innocent person reacts.

426
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Speaker 3: And so watching this video with che I was like,

427
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Speaker 3: that is not how an innocent person reacts.

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Speaker 4: Yep, It's like part of me almost.

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Speaker 3: Feels bad because I feel like Chess was groomed from

430
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Speaker 3: a younger age, from people who parade as pastors to

431
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 3: take advantage of communities, because, like you mentioned, Chess was

432
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Speaker 3: part of a cult like environment before when he was

433
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Speaker 3: younger that We've had people on our podcast speak about

434
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Speaker 3: their experiences there and how inappropriate and just devastating that

435
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 3: it was to them personally and to that community. And

436
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Speaker 3: so to see, like we said, Chez had made an

437
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 3: apology video, I'm so sorry.

438
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 4: I should never follow that man.

439
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 3: And then to fall into something like Chicina and seven M,

440
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 3: where I have personally experienced devastation. I have seen the

441
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 3: way it has negatively impacted a community. I've seen the

442
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 3: way that it has preyed on monetarily, emotionally, physically, the

443
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 3: people that are a part of it. I'm like, I

444
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 3: feel bad that you have been groomed from a young

445
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 3: age to think that this is how you live. However,

446
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 3: at a certain point you have to take responsibility for

447
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 3: your actions. You are acting just like these men, and

448
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 3: there are stories that corroborate that you are doing these

449
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 3: inappropriate things.

450
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 2: We talked a little bit about that. We've kind of

451
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 2: referenced it a few times after we had our episode

452
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 2: with Doctor Gideon is like, when does the victim become

453
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 2: the perpetrator?

454
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 4: Right?

455
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 2: And I've thought a lot about tight Eyes with that. Unfortunately,

456
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 2: my personal opinion is tight Eyes did not become the

457
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 2: perpetrator from a victim in Chicaina. I think that happened

458
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 2: well before those years, and he took that into Chakaina.

459
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 2: I don't know his personal past, and I'm not going

460
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 2: to speak on that, but yeah, I do want to ask, like,

461
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: are you seeing a divide between personal loyalty and public

462
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 2: accountability within the dance community since all of these videos

463
00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 2: been coming out and him calling really a amazing dancers

464
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: out in the community.

465
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 3: Right, And not only are they amazing dancers, they've also

466
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 3: done so much positive change within their community. So he

467
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 3: mentions people like Beast or like Kevin and Beast has

468
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 3: been able to grow this amazing platform for people within

469
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 3: LA to learn Crump and to be safe when they

470
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 3: want to go and learn Crump in LA. And so,

471
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 3: like you said that conflict between like personal loyalty and

472
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 3: public accountability, I think he is wanting the people who

473
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 3: are his fans, who believe that he is an incredible

474
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 3: talent that they don't want to I guess lose in

475
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 3: a way. I think Chess does play on that a lot,

476
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 3: as far as like, if you think I'm so great,

477
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 3: you should follow my teachings and not follow other people's teachings.

478
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 3: And I think it's just really sad when there is

479
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 3: a call for accountability from the community that he is

480
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 3: serving and for him to say, well, if you don't

481
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 3: agree with my way, you're not doing it correct. And

482
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,959
Speaker 3: it's like, I don't think there's a place for loyalty

483
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 3: when it comes to something that is actively harming people.

484
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 3: I can support you, I can want you to do better,

485
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 3: but I'm not going to be loyal to something that

486
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 3: is illegal or just causing harm.

487
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: Right.

488
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 2: Do you think that it has anything to do with

489
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: the fact that there's a thought that people are monetizing

490
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,239
Speaker 2: on Crump that he's not able to participate in of

491
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 2: why he's calling out these particular people because from my again,

492
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: I'm not in the community. I'm just you know, I'm

493
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 2: following everyone. I actually had the pleasure of meeting Beast

494
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: and he's just the nicest guy ever. And so do

495
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: you think that maybe it's this idea that he's seemingly

496
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: in this bubble and he's seeing this whole community, a

497
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: community that he helped build, flourishing and move on, and

498
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 2: he's not a part of it. Like, so this is

499
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 2: his way of like continuing to make his dam Yeah,

500
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 2: I mean, I.

501
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: Think while I believe that the group is very money hungry,

502
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 3: as most of the services that we were a part

503
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: of were about money, and you know, even in the

504
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 3: videos he mentions money, wanting twenty thousand dollars to dance

505
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 3: or whatever the case is.

506
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 4: I don't believe this is a money motivation.

507
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: I truly believe this is an act to get control

508
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 3: of a narrative because of the truths that are being

509
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 3: spoken and the damages that Ches may feel is happening

510
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 3: to his reputation.

511
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 4: And I think they are losing out on money.

512
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 3: But I think that it is necessary because of the crimes,

513
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 3: the atrocities, where the money is going, what the money

514
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 3: is supporting, Like, there's a reason why the finances are

515
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 3: being pulled away because it's not supporting something that is helpful,

516
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 3: it's supporting something that is harmful and hurtful. I think

517
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 3: it's just like they are backed into a corner and

518
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 3: this is their way of trying to be.

519
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 4: Like everyone else is lying. My way is correct.

520
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,239
Speaker 3: This is how we're supposed to to live, trying to

521
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 3: absolve themselves of accountability for their actions.

522
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: When we returned the conclusion of our conversation, this is

523
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: forgive me for I have followed.

524
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 3: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here

525
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 3: is the conclusion of our conversation.

526
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: We mentioned that we had someone share dms from Chez

527
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 2: and those were shared initially because of that kind of

528
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: path we were looking into, because again we were hearing

529
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: so much about tied eyes and seemingly wrongdoings, and so

530
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: this person shared these messages with us, and instead of

531
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: us sharing those with you, which she was so kind

532
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: to say that we could, I felt like, maybe it's

533
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 2: better for us to have a conversation with her Kalia,

534
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: so we can actually understand better of how she met

535
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 2: Tied Eyes and how the relationship through DM developed and

536
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: what that was like for her, because it did seemingly

537
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: get to a place where she was very uncomfortable and

538
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 2: clearly just like cut it off because I felt like

539
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: there was some inappropriate intentions. So thank you so much

540
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: for joining us and being a part of sharing your

541
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 2: experience and story.

542
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: Of course, again happy to help in any way. I

543
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: know he's affected a lot of people, so if this

544
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: is going to help, I definitely want to share.

545
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 4: Absolutely appreciate that.

546
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so sorry for the experiences that you've gone

547
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 3: through with him and just through the beginning of your

548
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 3: dance career. I know a lot of these things happening

549
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 3: early on can really affect the way that you move

550
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 3: forward within this environment. But again, echoing what Jessica said,

551
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 3: thank you for being on and sharing with us.

552
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 4: So I'm just curious to know. So how did you

553
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 4: and Chaz meet.

554
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: So I was on this dance company called Academy of Villains,

555
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: and our directors were beginning to become involved with the

556
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: Crump community, so that entailed having Tight Eyes at the time.

557
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: Baby tight has so many other people come on and

558
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: they would have them teach classes and stuff to us.

559
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: So we were having a little thing at our studio

560
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: where a bunch of choreographers came to teach, and he

561
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: was one of them, so we would have to share

562
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: the flyers and posters and tag all the choreographers. And

563
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: I think that was the first time we had ever

564
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: interacted after his class, thanking him obviously for teaching, and

565
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,719
Speaker 1: he was just a figure that we really had to

566
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: respect since he had that relationship with our directors CJ

567
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: and Crystal Phoenix and Farside, who were a part of

568
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: Academy of Villains. He was known as one of like

569
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: the creators of crump, so to us he was like

570
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: a god at the time, and at the time, I

571
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: was like eighteen or nineteen years old. But after the class,

572
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: we kind of thanked him and it wasn't too much

573
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: conversation until he responded to me tagging him in the

574
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: post thanking me for taking his class, and I just

575
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: thanked him obviously, said it was out of my comfort

576
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: zone because I didn't do too much crumping before or

577
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: being on that company, and the conversation just kind of

578
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: went from there. And he would consistently be dming me,

579
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: and it started off a little innocent, and he would

580
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: just thank me for not being creeped out having a

581
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: man like him messaging me, because obviously I was trying

582
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: to be respectful, and then it just started turning into

583
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: an uncomfortable situation.

584
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 4: When did that shift happen?

585
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: Was there like a very clear indication for you of

586
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 2: when casually communicating turned into him messaging a lot more

587
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 2: and that you started to feel uncomfortable.

588
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: Yes, Our interactions began in June of twenty eighteen, towards

589
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: the middle of that month, and it started off again innocent,

590
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: of him thanking me for coming, me thinking him for teaching,

591
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: saying it was out of my comfort zone, him letting

592
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: me know to keep going obviously, and right then and there,

593
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: now that I'm seeing he said, I feel more comfortable

594
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: speaking to you now. Sorry if I came off weird before,

595
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: but you're cool, because I think the second interaction we had,

596
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: he was kind of caught off guard and didn't really

597
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: respond so well, and I just let him know, like,

598
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: don't worry about it. And then it was late, so

599
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: he's like, you should be asleep, and that's when I

600
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: think right away the conversation started to shift and then

601
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: he started just asking questions about me, about where I'm

602
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: originally from, how long I've been living here, and then

603
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: the conversation just automatically went to like him just prying

604
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: and asking more questions about myself and saying that I'm short,

605
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: but I have a mature look. And it was pretty

606
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: much right away, and we continued talking until February seventh

607
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen was the last time he messaged me.

608
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: And then at that point, with all the previous conversations

609
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: and things that he had said, I was just too

610
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: uncomfortable to answer.

611
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 3: I kind of want to go back to the beginning

612
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 3: of the conversation. You said it was twenty eighteen. Yes,

613
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 3: considering that he was brought into a dance company with

614
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 3: a lot of young people who look up to him,

615
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 3: and to me, it's just capitalizing on that position of

616
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 3: power to gain something sexually is extremely inappropriate. Thank you

617
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 3: for sharing these messages because I find them to be

618
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 3: very insightful about the kind of person that he is.

619
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 3: And you know, to this day, he's still being booked

620
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 3: on workshops in different places where I'm like, gosh, like

621
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 3: I hope he is not continuing to repeat patterns that

622
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 3: we have absolute proof of because we're here, we're having

623
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 3: this conversation with you, and thank you so much for

624
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 3: being brave enough to share it, because I think the

625
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 3: power that a lot of men have is in the

626
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 3: silence of people.

627
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: And back then, looking back at it all, I had

628
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: told a few of my friends who were also in

629
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: the company I would show them some of the messages.

630
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: And that's around the time when he wanted to try

631
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: to hang out with me and in his terms, show

632
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 1: me what a real man is. And he said those words,

633
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: I have the messages, and at the time, the girls

634
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: my age, they were like encouraging it because of the

635
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: person that he was. To us at the time, like

636
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: he's a legend, Like just go test it out, see,

637
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: like this is crazy, And to them it was like

638
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: an exciting thing. And I at the time hadn't even

639
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: been in a relationship before. I've never had a boyfriend,

640
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: and I had like disclosed that to him as well,

641
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,959
Speaker 1: because he was very persistent on meeting with me, and

642
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: I kept trying to show my disinterest respectfully, and it

643
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: came to a point where he was like, do you

644
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: just not like, guys, is that what it is? So

645
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: he kind of switched that around on me, causing me

646
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: to try to defend myself and just be like, no,

647
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 1: it's not that. I've just never been in a relationship.

648
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: So he knew that as well, and he was just

649
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: still very persistent with wanting to meet with me and

650
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: would say things like I can give you a booty

651
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: rub because of all that you have back there and

652
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 1: things like that, and when I brought it up later

653
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: about how that made me like uncomfortable or that he

654
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: had mentioned that, he's like, I didn't mean it unless

655
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: you were thinking about it, and would say things like that.

656
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: Did you ever meet up with him privately? If you

657
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: don't mind me asking? I did not, thankfully. There was

658
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: one point where I was considering it heavily because of

659
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: his persistence and people in my ear just saying just

660
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 2: go once, see how it is. And it didn't help

661
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 2: that every time he wanted to meet.

662
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: Late at night and he had invited me another time

663
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: to a function with all of his friends and things

664
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 1: like that, and I think that was the one time

665
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: I was debating ongoing and then again I just had

666
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: that gut feeling that I wouldn't be comfortable, so I

667
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: declined the offer. But there was only one time that

668
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: I almost considered going, and I'm thankful that I haven't

669
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: due to things that I've also heard about him later

670
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: on through other people and just thinking back, I feel

671
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: like that situation could have taken a turn for the worst.

672
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: So I'm glad that I didn't.

673
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 4: Very glad you didn't either.

674
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: So you had mentioned that you had met Chez because

675
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 3: he was brought in through Academy of Villains, and I

676
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 3: think the directors were Farside and Crystal.

677
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: Yes, and she was also known as Phoenix in the

678
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 1: dance community.

679
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 4: I've heard a bit about Academy of Villains.

680
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 3: I have some friends who were a part of the

681
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 3: dance company, and to me, it was really concerning that

682
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 3: that was where you were introduced to this individual, considering

683
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 3: that there were other things going on within Academy of

684
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 3: Villains that had complaints as well.

685
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 4: What was your time like there, just briefly overview.

686
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: I joined the company when I was eighteen on the

687
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: youth team. It was very quick. I had just gone

688
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: in as like a guest to test out the waters,

689
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: and right off the bat they were training for a

690
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: World of Dance competition and ended up formatting me into

691
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 1: that piece, and by the end of that day they

692
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: were like, are you doing it or not? You are

693
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: center now in this piece. You need to let us

694
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 1: know right away. And I think that was the beginning

695
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: of a very manipulative experience being on that company for

696
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: the next three years. It was very demanding. I had

697
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: to choose between college and there, and they are very

698
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: much don't care about what life you have. Upside, it

699
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: was just you have to be at rehearsal. This is

700
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: your commitment. You owe it to us because we're doing

701
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: all these things for you. So I said I was

702
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: going to take a year off and I never ended

703
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: up going back to college because as just the expectations

704
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: that they had, but they don't exist anymore because they

705
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: got called out in twenty twenty going down on physical,

706
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: sexual and mental abuse. Wow, And in a way it

707
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: was looking back at it very cult like and just

708
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 1: the hole that they had on us was very scary,

709
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: like even leaving, they would manipulate you into staying. I

710
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: tried to leave three times, and if you do leave,

711
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: you'd get in a way blacklisted. So no one's allowed

712
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: to talk to you. They talk about you there and

713
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 1: use you as an example about how you weren't able

714
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: to handle it, and it was a very incredibly toxic environment.

715
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: And it's just a lot to unpack.

716
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 3: It almost lights my body on fire because it's just

717
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,439
Speaker 3: so reminiscent of my days when I was in seven

718
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: M and Chicina, and just how prevalent these groups are

719
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,959
Speaker 3: and things that are not always necessarily religious, but there's

720
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 3: still utilizing the same practices of control and manipulation, and

721
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 3: oh man, I'm so sorry.

722
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 2: This series is meant to provide a space to look

723
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:16,479
Speaker 2: into investigating exposing high control groups, and like Leah saying,

724
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 2: it's not always in a religious environment. It's not always

725
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: you know, masked in a church, so high controlled groups

726
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 2: can be in dance companies and communities. So maybe we

727
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 2: can have you back to explore more of that and

728
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 2: hear more about your experience.

729
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: Of course, Yeah, thank you for having me and listening

730
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: and wanting to look into these things, because it's been

731
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: swept under the rug for so long, and I'm sure

732
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: for a lot of other people who've had it much worse.

733
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 2: It's not easy to reference back to a time that

734
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: you felt really vulnerable and that you felt uncomfortable, and

735
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 2: I would imagine that there's the concern of consequences in backlash.

736
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: If you're speaking against people that are active in the

737
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 2: community today, it's your livelihood, it's your profession.

738
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 3: These are people who are in a big public light,

739
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 3: that have a lot of eyes on them, and so

740
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 3: situations like this, it can be harder for victims to

741
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 3: come forward when their alleged perpetrator is in a position

742
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 3: of power.

743
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 4: It's easier for the person in the position.

744
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 3: Of power to discredit the people who are coming out

745
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 3: and saying their truth and their experience and their story.

746
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 3: And think all of this evidence and proof that Chez

747
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 3: swears that we don't have, you know.

748
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 4: Things are coming to lights.

749
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 3: It was mentioned how twenty twenty was a big revealing

750
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 3: of predatory practices within the dance community.

751
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 4: We're seeing a resurgence of.

752
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 3: That this year in twenty twenty five, of the truth

753
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 3: being brought out into the light.

754
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 2: We hope this conversation gave you new perspectives on the

755
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 2: tension between personal beliefs, accountability, and the evolution of dance culture.

756
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us for more thought provoking discussions

757
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 2: and as always thank you for tuning in to Forgive

758
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 2: Me For I Have Followed.

759
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 3: Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from

760
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 3: wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast Network,

761
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 3: hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jessicassavetto. Forgive Me

762
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 3: For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson and

763
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 3: Sophie Spencer Zavos.

764
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself, Wilmar Balderama, Leo

765
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 2: Klam and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.

766
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 3: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original

767
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 3: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts

768
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 3: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

769
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 3: you listen to your favorite shows.

770
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 4: See you next week, See you next week,