WEBVTT - NYPD’s Finest: Inside Cold Cases with Detective Giacalone 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:12.080 It was early two thousand and four when I met 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:14.040 him for the first time, and I can see him 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.840 right now sitting in his chair waiting for me. He 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.840 was all dressed up and ready to talk about our 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:26.119 cold case. His eyes were fading, but honey, not his memory. 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:32.680 James O. Ponder retired from the FBI in nineteen seventy six, 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:38.760 but in his thirty years it was stuff of legendary status. 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:41.880 He was one of the ones that tracked down James 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:46.000 o'ray after the assassination of doctor King. He went over 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:49.879 to his apartment and he found the maps, so he 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:54.480 knew he's headed a Memphis. He had that confirmed. He 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:58.680 also worked on the Mary Michael case, the young woman 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.560 that was put in the box with limited air and 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.959 buried alive, the Emory University student. He was one of 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.480 the ones that found her with the straw sticking up. 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:12.919 He also worked the Rosenberg spy case. But the reason 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:17.399 I met with him was the Mary Shotwell little case 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:20.360 out of Atlanta, and it was the case that he 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:24.880 just could not let go. He said, you know, of 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:28.319 all the things that I've done, Mary's case is the 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:32.120 one that stuck with me. I even exchanged Christmas cards 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:36.679 with her mother for forty years. Some cases you just 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:44.880 can't let go. Our guest today, Detective Joseph Jackloney, spent 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.800 twenty years with NYPD. Now, y'all, I've had a lot 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:50.960 of people on Zone seven, and there's a lot of 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:54.960 people in my Zone seven that have a bio that 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:57.560 will just knock your socks off. But I want you 0:01:57.600 --> 0:01:59.840 to know before I start listing all of his act 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:04.520 glades and successes, this is a snapshot of this man. 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.880 He won the Medal of Valor. He attained the rank 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:15.240 of sergeant sergeant over the Detective Squad Bronx Cold Case Squad. 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:18.800 He was the commandant officer over the one hundred and 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:23.000 tenth Precinct Detective Squad in Queens. He was the director 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:28.040 of the New York Police Department Homicide School. He's a professor, 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:33.679 he's an author. He literally wrote the Cold Case Handbook. 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:39.080 I not only respect this man, but I tell you 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:43.679 he is a decent and fine person. I want to 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:48.560 welcome Joseph Jackaloney to his own seven. You know, you 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.000 and I first met at Crime con and I was 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.639 knocked out then. Just your way of approaching a case, 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.000 the way you talk with people the way you work 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.839 a room. It's something to what And I often tell 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.760 young csis and young detectives if you don't know how 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:09.280 to talk to people, practice try to learn how to 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:11.760 do it. But you do it with such ease. 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:16.120 Well, it's something that I have worked on over my years. Right, 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:19.800 we know that communication is a skill that definitely is 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.880 something that you can work on, and I try to 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.400 hone that craft throughout my over two decades in the 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.880 New York City Police Department. I always tell my students specifically, 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:32.079 if you are standing online somewhere in the store and 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:33.880 all of a sudden, the person behind you is thoughts 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:37.400 giving you their life story without asking. You have a gift. 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:43.440 There, Amen, absolutely right, My sisters say to me, sometimes 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:46.320 the crazy people just seek you out. I hope so, 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.120 because it's a gift and it's not something I'm going 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:52.920 to take lightly. I love it when people just want 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:56.120 to talk to me. So, you have a case that 0:03:56.160 --> 0:04:00.600 we need to talk about, because, like Agent Ponder, this 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:03.720 case sticks with you. This is something you cannot let go. 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.200 This is something you will not forget about. So why 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:12.240 don't you tell us about Charles Taylor and Steven Mason certainly. 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.480 I mean, this is a case we had when I 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.760 was in the Bronx, and we had actually thousands of 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.040 open cases, and there is a case that sticks with 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:23.360 every investigator no matter what you do, whether it's an 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.599 homicide or the thack of squad or specifically a cold 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.560 case squad. But that's where I had found myself in 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.719 two thousand, So here's where what we're dealing with. So 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:36.359 this case came across my desk and it was like, 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:39.920 there are certain things that attract you to something, and 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.960 for me, it was, first of all, the victim's age. 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.880 So you had a double homicide, a double stabbing, and 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.120 you had two young boys, one was six and one 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:51.839 was eight, so Charles was six and step brother Stephen 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.839 was eight. And that was the first thing. Because in 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:58.000 New York City we have the accordion file, so to speak. 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.640 So you have this big like banker's file or a box, 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.000 and that's how we do our cases. So it's unlike 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:05.719 the LPD who has like the murder book and everything 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.080 nice and simple. We have a big, giant mess. And 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:11.240 the issue that comes down to is that I would 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.800 say the hardest thing is finding the case. So we 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:15.880 came across this case and I saw the ages and 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:17.760 right away I said, well, listen to this one is 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.080 something that we need to look at. Like everything else, 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:23.200 you try to find those solvability factors that get in there. 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:25.560 But this case was dated all the way back onto 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:29.080 February twenty first, nineteen eighty five, and it happened in 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:33.800 two thousand Valentine Avenue, and the boys were both stabbed. 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.400 They were actually their throats were cut, and they had 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.640 some other injuries that I won't go into detail on 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.240 because there's only things that the killer would know. And 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:42.800 the issue that comes down to is that this is 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.200 still an open case. The boys were found at the 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:50.440 bottom of the staircase to the trash compactor room. To me, 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:53.440 that was also another significant part of what the killer 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.880 was probably thinking at the time, you know, using that location, 0:05:57.400 --> 0:05:59.360 the boys were supposed to be going to school, and 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:01.440 they never made to school. Now, the school isn't too 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.680 far from where the house is located. It's actually just 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.320 through the apartment complex, make a left turn and it's 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:11.400 like another block or two to the school, so they 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:14.440 had a very short distance to walk. The issue that 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:16.240 comes down to is that they never make it there. 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:18.760 And there was a big search going on for the 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:21.400 police all hours of the night until they finally discovered 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:23.760 the children at the bottom of the staircase of the 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.240 trash compact the room. And as you know, Cheryl, when 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:29.479 you're dealing with a missing person's case, whether it's an 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:33.440 elderly or it's a young child, you always try to 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:37.080 do a complete search of the location first because more 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.680 than likely that's where you find them. And unfortunately they 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.680 found them. The hunt was on right. So here's where 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:45.720 I also try to teach people who are looking at 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.200 the cold cases to go back to the archives to 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:52.880 find those old newspaper articles and newscasts because they tend 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:56.480 to have so much more information than today's reporters. Right, 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:58.840 today's reporters there's a twenty two second cycle. They need 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.159 to get to the next story. Back in the day, 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:04.680 the men and women that did this, they did long 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.599 form investigations. They were like detectives, and they had so 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.200 much information that is in their reports and on the 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:13.480 newspaper stuff. It's amazing what you can find on it. 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:18.320 There's unfortunately only about two articles that are archived, one 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.600 in the New York Times and one in the New 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.840 York Post. They actually go into some great details. So 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:27.520 they start naming names of suspects, and they start talking 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:29.360 about different things. They name the name of cops and 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.600 the detectives that are working these things, which is all 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.720 important for your investigation. But getting back into what we 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:37.800 were doing, so for years, for a couple of years, 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:42.680 we had one suspect narrowdown. It's unfortunate that most of 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.480 the evidence in the case was destroyed and we really 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:50.360 were left with nothing to go on other than if 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.600 we brought this person in and question them and then 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.840 you hope that they make a confession, which is never 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:58.800 in a good spot to be. And so we had 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.680 shows at the time to do that and continue started 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.920 looking for We went to every police facility that we 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.960 have that stored evidence in and we couldn't find this. 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:10.720 I mean, we're talking about a case that was, you know, 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:13.400 twenty twenty years old plus by the time we were 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.360 looking into it again. And unfortunately a lot of things happened. Look, 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:18.480 the NAPD just had another big fire not too long 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:21.360 ago that a bunch of evidence from cold cases were destroyed. 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:23.760 So when you're dealing with situation where you have so 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:27.640 many cases of the likelihood of this happening is probability, 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.880 and the issue that what we also look into is 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.280 that and this is for the people who are out 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.960 there investigating cases, whether in your law enforcement or you're 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.560 a civilian looking at these things. Most of the time 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:42.719 the suspect is named somewhere within the case file. It's 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.559 a phenomenon that you just can't explain. At one point, 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.199 the detectives had this person on their radar and it 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.800 was just like everything else that missing that one piece 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.600 to establish the probable cause in order to make an arrest. 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:56.200 This is something very similar to what we had faced, 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.680 But we came from the school of looking at cases 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.240 without reading the files first, right, So if you had 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:06.360 an active homicide, you wouldn't go into a filebox and 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:08.880 start reading all or booths. They don't exist. So we 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.520 would do things such as the crime scene walk through 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.920 with the photographs. But the other bonus that we had 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:19.520 in the Bronx was that during the eighties, the district 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:24.120 attorney had a program that they videotaped every crime scene, 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.959 so this crime scene was actually included, so we were 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:31.400 able to actually watch the crime scene in living color 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:33.880 twenty something years later, which was a bonus. And there's 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:37.120 something that I've been preaching to police departments and DA 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.439 squads everywhere I go, that every homicide that happens should 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.319 be videotapes, especially now when things are so cheap you 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:44.600 could do it with an iPhone. 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.600 I couldn't agree more. I could not agree more. And 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:49.760 I tell you one thing I've been preaching for years. 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:55.600 Incorporate drones. Get that overall you can see every possible 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.720 entrance and exit, and then take that drone and do 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:02.120 the a level of where the perpetrator would have walked 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:07.120 in or out. It's a tremendous gift that we have now. 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.319 Absolutely, It's actually something I have actually included in the 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:12.880 new book right about using drones in order to do 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.800 these crime scenes, specifically outdoor crime scenes, but they're useful 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:18.880 for indoor crime scenes. And people say, well, how I mean, 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:20.800 you can't be flying this thing in somebody's living room. No, 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.920 it's about getting it above the ground. Almost look like 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:27.280 that Google map view, because this is how you find 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:29.880 extended crime scenes. This is how you find areas where 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.120 the suspect could have escape from, and you could find 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.040 all the different things because evidence could be all along 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:38.719 that path that the person has fled. I mean, it's 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:39.439 as simple. 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.600 As that, no question. And let me tell you I've 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.160 got a detective. He says, if you can use a 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:46.960 drone to go into a building to search to keep 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.120 your officers safe, then you take that same drone and 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.280 you can go in a crime scene inside the home 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.599 or building first before you go in and do your walkthrough. 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.679 It's absolutely one of the best tools we have right 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:01.160 now for documenting. 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.559 It's something I wish that we had when we were 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:07.040 doing this stuff because we had so many cases that 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.520 could have benefited from this. So I tried to talk 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:12.480 to as many people as I can, and that's one 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:13.960 of the reasons why I wrote the book to because 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:18.800 it gives me a wider search, a wider audience. But unfortunately, 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.680 police departments are getting away from cold case squads because 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.720 of the great what I referred to as resignation and retirements, 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:27.920 and there's not enough people left to handle these cases 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:31.080 because they all long term investigations. But I tell you, 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.080 with the two new federal laws that passed last year, 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:34.920 they're in trouble if they don't have a cold case squad. 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:37.720 You know, there was a law pass not long ago 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:41.160 in Indiana that said a family that had a cold 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:44.360 case that felt like their local jurisdiction didn't do enough 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.120 could give the cold case to the state police. And 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:50.640 as soon as I saw that, I thought, this is 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.800 never going to work. They're going to be inundated, They're 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.560 not going to be able to turn around in that room, 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.520 They're going to have so many requests. So I agree 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.840 with you that you've got to do it beforehand, and 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.079 you've got to get ready or before something like that 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:10.680 becomes enacted, because I mean, buddy, you're going to be 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:19.040 overrun pretty quick. Going back to Charles and Stephen, now 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.760 they had a two year old younger brother and lived 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.880 with their mama on Valentine Avenue. Was there anything that 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.079 stuck out to you from the beginning about the address 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:35.199 or any similar transactions, anything that made you say, hey, 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.880 wait a minute, I know something about this. You know 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.720 two thousand Valentine Avenue, or I know something about this 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:41.520 general area. 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.160 One thing about two thousand Valentine Avenue had had a 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:46.400 checkered past, and one of the things as a cold 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:49.720 case investigator that you must do is look for companion cases, 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.480 the cases that could be connected to yours, because they 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.680 can each hold the piece of the puzzle to the 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.679 one that you're investigating. So we did all of that right, 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:00.960 so you figure with being you would look at We 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.880 went through FBI's BYICAP right, the Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.200 to identify other types of incidents where children were stay 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:10.679 up at death and you know, left and kind of 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.480 you know, staged in the way that they were, and 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.720 unfortunately it's not it wasn't. It didn't come up with 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:19.520 any other hits, so we knew we were dealing with 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.520 somebody who this might have been their first time dealing 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.080 with maybe children at this point. Because in the Bronx 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:27.880 back in the eighties and nineties, it was a very 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:31.600 violent place and I think we had about eight or 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.560 nine thousand open homicides just from ten years prior, so 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:39.199 there were a lot of cases and you weren't dealing 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:42.959 with situations where you had you know, drug on drug crime, 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:45.520 drug dealers killing each other, at gang killing each other, 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:49.439 or when you had instances of where prostitutes were picked 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:51.480 up and found murdered. I mean, you're dealing with two 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.160 small children. So this was an outlier from the type 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.280 of homicides that we were looking at, and that's what 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:58.040 really attracted our attention to this. 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:00.520 Yeah, I think it would have gotten much engine two, 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:04.400 especially they're not sexually assaulted. There were two at one time, 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.080 they never left the premise of where they lived. I mean, 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.640 all of those things are very unusual. And then I 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:16.839 believe it was Steven that had some defensive wounds exactly. 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.080 We know that he was killed second because he saw 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.120 his brother as he was coming down the staircase, and 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.040 then he put up a fight at the bottom of 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:25.520 the staircase. But you know as well as I do, 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.600 anybody who has the high ground, especially if you're an 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:29.920 adult against an eight year old, it's going to be 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.480 rather easy to get control of them. And he fought 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.320 for his life for at least a minute or so there, 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.520 and unfortunately he was aim able to get around him 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.600 and get out. And the ironic part of this is 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.160 if he was able to do it, that staircase led 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:49.040 directly into the courtyard where somebody would available to hear 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:50.040 its screams. For sure. 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.320 Now, most of the time, if somebody attacked you with 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.920 a knife, they hold you in some way, they grab 0:14:56.960 --> 0:15:00.440 a part of your shirt or something where they're holding 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:03.600 you to stab you. Do you think that there's any 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:05.960 chance there could be DNA own their clothing. 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.360 Well, there's always a chance, right, It's just unfortunately that 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.960 either it wasn't recovered at the scene and secured well, 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:16.480 as I said, a young way to understand the value 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.560 of that kind of evidence back then, or it was 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.440 vouchered and we were just neighbor able to locate it. 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.680 And the case file, like I said, it was old 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.880 and we had the duplicates of the duplicates on the form. 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:30.160 Do you know when you type it, you make four 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.640 or five copies. It's not ideal. We had a special 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:35.560 place where we would open up these cases because you 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:36.920 never know what you were going to find in some 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:39.560 of these boxes. I mean, we found boxes with bloody 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.800 shirts of them. I mean, you name it. Because policing 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.520 was much different back in the eighties and even the nineties, 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:46.200 it was. 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.040 Not something that they even understood. To protect the integrity 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.680 of that scene, there was a lot that had to 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.960 be taught, and a lot of training and a lot 0:15:55.960 --> 0:16:01.120 of understanding that you shouldn't walk through blood possible exactly. 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:03.160 I mean, even in some of the videos that we've 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:04.880 seen over the years when we were doing the stuff, 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.520 you'd have detecting smoking cigarettes in the crime scene, you know, 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.240 stamping them out in and you're just sitting there shaking 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:12.760 your head. You're like, my god, as a supervisor, you'd 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.680 have a stroke. To see what people would you would. 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:19.960 Have a stroke exactly right, Yeah, and again we did. 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.040 It sounds crazy, but we didn't know. I mean I 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.520 remember even when I first learned the Lockhart principle in college, 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.120 I was like, that sounds crazy. I don't take something 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.680 and leave something. But then you work two or three 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.680 of these scenes and you realize, oh my lord, that happens, 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:38.240 you know, so it is real. And again there's not 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.840 enough training. And that's why things like your new book, 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.400 the Cold Case Handbook, is so imperative, and a lot 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:47.920 of the interviews that you do because here's something else 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:50.440 I noticed. And maybe it's because you're a professor and 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.360 you're a teacher at heart, but even as you do 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:59.120 interviews on the national news, you're teaching and you're training 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.360 at a very basic level. I mean, I love the 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:06.240 way you talk and the way you form, like, here's 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:09.439 the scene, this is what law enforcement has done. And 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.399 then you gradually go into and this is what they 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.240 could do and this is what they should do to me. 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:18.040 And I just want to be very very clear. You 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.560 can't overstate the way you deliver a message. 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.840 I do appreciate that, especially coming from you. And what 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:26.600 I try to do is when I do a lot 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:28.640 of TV stuff, and like you said, I try to explain, 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:30.760 I just I don't do the cops speak. I don't 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.800 do that, you know, this is the detective speak and 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.320 start meming acronyms that people don't know. I try to 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.520 explain everything, but I try to also provide people with 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.200 a solid foundation of where I'm coming from in certain aspects. 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.520 If it's based on my experience, I'll say based on 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.520 my experience. If it's something that is basically, you know, 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.800 this is what scientific experience or scientific experimentation, now we'll 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:55.760 call that out too. I have seen a lot of 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.000 things lately from other individuals. I won't name anybody, but 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.800 sometimes when they go on television, I kind of question, like, 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.359 you know, what are you doing? It's just there's a 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:06.280 time and a place for everything, and I try to 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.719 make sure that you just be real. I call it 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.239 like it is too. I don't sugarcoat any I tell 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:14.639 people I'm not a bakery. I don't sugarcoat anything. It 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.480 is what it is. And I kind of speak my mind, 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:19.920 which has been probably my doubtful in my lifetime too, 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:21.840 because certain people don't want to hear the truth. Well, 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:23.879 I always tell people that they don't ask me. But 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.760 I've had a couple of arguments with people or other 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:29.720 experts on TV too, which some of them are kind 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:30.040 of fun. 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:35.000 Well, I think from the hill, flat out honest, here 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:37.840 it is. You asked me for it. Those are the 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:40.280 kind of things to me that are imperative on these 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.880 cases because if we talk around stuff and we don't 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:47.800 flat say, hey, the fact that these children were not 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:51.120 sexually assaulted matters. And here's why it matters. The fact 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.640 that they weren't taken from their home to another location matters. 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:59.160 Here's why I can tell you that perpetrator is right there. 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.600 We believe this was personal too, and not so much 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:05.199 about the kids, but you know, against the mother of 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.879 the kids. It's definitely something that needed to be explored. 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.160 I mean, like you said, a million things could have happened. 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.320 It could have been kidnapped, this for ransom, It could 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:19.000 have been anything. But this was something shortly where they 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.439 left the house too, And this wasn't like, you know, 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.720 they were coming home from school. Now, this happened on 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:26.960 the way to school, within a matter of minutes from 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:28.600 them leaving the house, because from when they come out 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.240 of their apartment. And unfortunately, back in the eighties, we 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.879 didn't have surveillance videos, So if God forbid, this happened today, 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.120 it'd be video surveillance of that courtyard like there is today. 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.280 If you go over the two thousand Valentine Avenue, there's 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.960 not only security, there's gates you can't get in. There's 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:45.080 all kinds of crazy stuff that happens over there. 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.720 From what we know, I mean, they didn't scream, there 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.000 wasn't anything like that. There obviously wasn't gunfire. There wasn't 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.120 somebody that busted through there and ran through the courtyard bloody. 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:57.280 So again that leads me to think the person is 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.720 on the inside, the person is right there. 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.040 Or somebody that the kids knew, that they were comfortable with, 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.760 and that security guards knew. So if that person didn't 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:10.080 live there, which is a possibility that the guards knew 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:12.480 who they worked because they were constantly visiting or coming 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:14.600 to the place, we got, hey, how you doing, and 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:16.800 then we have to go okay, you know, and then's 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:19.640 walk by. I mean, we know access control is really important, 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:23.560 but unfortunately sometimes people get lazy and you see the 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.240 same person every day they come visit, and then it 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:28.480 becomes an automatic like oh, here he comes, and just 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:29.800 hit the buzzer and with the person in. 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.680 Now, let me ask you something with the five boroughs. 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:40.960 I know you worked Queens and I know you worked 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.639 the Bronx. When you work a case, no matter what 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:47.480 it is, homicide or missing person, do you work different 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:49.040 in those different neighborhoods. 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.560 No. Yeah, people don't realize New York City's made up 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.120 of five counties or five boroughs, which we call them. 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.840 So you have New York County, which is Manhattan, King's County, 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:59.399 which is the Bronx. You have Queens, you have Staten 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:01.800 Island which is Richmond County, and you have the Bronx. 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:04.720