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Speaker 1: It was early two thousand and four when I met

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Speaker 1: him for the first time, and I can see him

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Speaker 1: right now sitting in his chair waiting for me. He

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Speaker 1: was all dressed up and ready to talk about our

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Speaker 1: cold case. His eyes were fading, but honey, not his memory.

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Speaker 1: James O. Ponder retired from the FBI in nineteen seventy six,

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Speaker 1: but in his thirty years it was stuff of legendary status.

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Speaker 1: He was one of the ones that tracked down James

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Speaker 1: o'ray after the assassination of doctor King. He went over

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Speaker 1: to his apartment and he found the maps, so he

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Speaker 1: knew he's headed a Memphis. He had that confirmed. He

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Speaker 1: also worked on the Mary Michael case, the young woman

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Speaker 1: that was put in the box with limited air and

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Speaker 1: buried alive, the Emory University student. He was one of

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Speaker 1: the ones that found her with the straw sticking up.

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Speaker 1: He also worked the Rosenberg spy case. But the reason

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Speaker 1: I met with him was the Mary Shotwell little case

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Speaker 1: out of Atlanta, and it was the case that he

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Speaker 1: just could not let go. He said, you know, of

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Speaker 1: all the things that I've done, Mary's case is the

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Speaker 1: one that stuck with me. I even exchanged Christmas cards

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Speaker 1: with her mother for forty years. Some cases you just

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Speaker 1: can't let go. Our guest today, Detective Joseph Jackloney, spent

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Speaker 1: twenty years with NYPD. Now, y'all, I've had a lot

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Speaker 1: of people on Zone seven, and there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in my Zone seven that have a bio that

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Speaker 1: will just knock your socks off. But I want you

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Speaker 1: to know before I start listing all of his act

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Speaker 1: glades and successes, this is a snapshot of this man.

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Speaker 1: He won the Medal of Valor. He attained the rank

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Speaker 1: of sergeant sergeant over the Detective Squad Bronx Cold Case Squad.

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Speaker 1: He was the commandant officer over the one hundred and

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Speaker 1: tenth Precinct Detective Squad in Queens. He was the director

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Speaker 1: of the New York Police Department Homicide School. He's a professor,

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Speaker 1: he's an author. He literally wrote the Cold Case Handbook.

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Speaker 1: I not only respect this man, but I tell you

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Speaker 1: he is a decent and fine person. I want to

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Speaker 1: welcome Joseph Jackaloney to his own seven. You know, you

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Speaker 1: and I first met at Crime con and I was

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Speaker 1: knocked out then. Just your way of approaching a case,

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Speaker 1: the way you talk with people the way you work

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Speaker 1: a room. It's something to what And I often tell

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Speaker 1: young csis and young detectives if you don't know how

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Speaker 1: to talk to people, practice try to learn how to

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Speaker 1: do it. But you do it with such ease.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's something that I have worked on over my years. Right,

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Speaker 2: we know that communication is a skill that definitely is

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Speaker 2: something that you can work on, and I try to

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Speaker 2: hone that craft throughout my over two decades in the

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Speaker 2: New York City Police Department. I always tell my students specifically,

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Speaker 2: if you are standing online somewhere in the store and

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, the person behind you is thoughts

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Speaker 2: giving you their life story without asking. You have a gift.

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Speaker 1: There, Amen, absolutely right, My sisters say to me, sometimes

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Speaker 1: the crazy people just seek you out. I hope so,

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Speaker 1: because it's a gift and it's not something I'm going

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Speaker 1: to take lightly. I love it when people just want

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Speaker 1: to talk to me. So, you have a case that

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Speaker 1: we need to talk about, because, like Agent Ponder, this

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Speaker 1: case sticks with you. This is something you cannot let go.

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Speaker 1: This is something you will not forget about. So why

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Speaker 1: don't you tell us about Charles Taylor and Steven Mason certainly.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is a case we had when I

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Speaker 2: was in the Bronx, and we had actually thousands of

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Speaker 2: open cases, and there is a case that sticks with

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Speaker 2: every investigator no matter what you do, whether it's an

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Speaker 2: homicide or the thack of squad or specifically a cold

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Speaker 2: case squad. But that's where I had found myself in

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Speaker 2: two thousand, So here's where what we're dealing with. So

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Speaker 2: this case came across my desk and it was like,

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Speaker 2: there are certain things that attract you to something, and

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Speaker 2: for me, it was, first of all, the victim's age.

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Speaker 2: So you had a double homicide, a double stabbing, and

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Speaker 2: you had two young boys, one was six and one

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Speaker 2: was eight, so Charles was six and step brother Stephen

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Speaker 2: was eight. And that was the first thing. Because in

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Speaker 2: New York City we have the accordion file, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: So you have this big like banker's file or a box,

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Speaker 2: and that's how we do our cases. So it's unlike

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Speaker 2: the LPD who has like the murder book and everything

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Speaker 2: nice and simple. We have a big, giant mess. And

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Speaker 2: the issue that comes down to is that I would

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Speaker 2: say the hardest thing is finding the case. So we

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Speaker 2: came across this case and I saw the ages and

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Speaker 2: right away I said, well, listen to this one is

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Speaker 2: something that we need to look at. Like everything else,

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Speaker 2: you try to find those solvability factors that get in there.

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Speaker 2: But this case was dated all the way back onto

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Speaker 2: February twenty first, nineteen eighty five, and it happened in

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Speaker 2: two thousand Valentine Avenue, and the boys were both stabbed.

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Speaker 2: They were actually their throats were cut, and they had

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Speaker 2: some other injuries that I won't go into detail on

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Speaker 2: because there's only things that the killer would know. And

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Speaker 2: the issue that comes down to is that this is

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Speaker 2: still an open case. The boys were found at the

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Speaker 2: bottom of the staircase to the trash compactor room. To me,

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Speaker 2: that was also another significant part of what the killer

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Speaker 2: was probably thinking at the time, you know, using that location,

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Speaker 2: the boys were supposed to be going to school, and

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Speaker 2: they never made to school. Now, the school isn't too

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Speaker 2: far from where the house is located. It's actually just

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Speaker 2: through the apartment complex, make a left turn and it's

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Speaker 2: like another block or two to the school, so they

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Speaker 2: had a very short distance to walk. The issue that

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Speaker 2: comes down to is that they never make it there.

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Speaker 2: And there was a big search going on for the

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Speaker 2: police all hours of the night until they finally discovered

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Speaker 2: the children at the bottom of the staircase of the

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Speaker 2: trash compact the room. And as you know, Cheryl, when

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Speaker 2: you're dealing with a missing person's case, whether it's an

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Speaker 2: elderly or it's a young child, you always try to

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Speaker 2: do a complete search of the location first because more

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Speaker 2: than likely that's where you find them. And unfortunately they

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Speaker 2: found them. The hunt was on right. So here's where

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Speaker 2: I also try to teach people who are looking at

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Speaker 2: the cold cases to go back to the archives to

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Speaker 2: find those old newspaper articles and newscasts because they tend

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Speaker 2: to have so much more information than today's reporters. Right,

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Speaker 2: today's reporters there's a twenty two second cycle. They need

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Speaker 2: to get to the next story. Back in the day,

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Speaker 2: the men and women that did this, they did long

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Speaker 2: form investigations. They were like detectives, and they had so

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Speaker 2: much information that is in their reports and on the

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Speaker 2: newspaper stuff. It's amazing what you can find on it.

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Speaker 2: There's unfortunately only about two articles that are archived, one

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Speaker 2: in the New York Times and one in the New

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Speaker 2: York Post. They actually go into some great details. So

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Speaker 2: they start naming names of suspects, and they start talking

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Speaker 2: about different things. They name the name of cops and

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Speaker 2: the detectives that are working these things, which is all

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Speaker 2: important for your investigation. But getting back into what we

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Speaker 2: were doing, so for years, for a couple of years,

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Speaker 2: we had one suspect narrowdown. It's unfortunate that most of

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Speaker 2: the evidence in the case was destroyed and we really

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Speaker 2: were left with nothing to go on other than if

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Speaker 2: we brought this person in and question them and then

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Speaker 2: you hope that they make a confession, which is never

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Speaker 2: in a good spot to be. And so we had

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Speaker 2: shows at the time to do that and continue started

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Speaker 2: looking for We went to every police facility that we

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Speaker 2: have that stored evidence in and we couldn't find this.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we're talking about a case that was, you know,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty years old plus by the time we were

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Speaker 2: looking into it again. And unfortunately a lot of things happened. Look,

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Speaker 2: the NAPD just had another big fire not too long

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Speaker 2: ago that a bunch of evidence from cold cases were destroyed.

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Speaker 2: So when you're dealing with situation where you have so

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Speaker 2: many cases of the likelihood of this happening is probability,

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Speaker 2: and the issue that what we also look into is

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Speaker 2: that and this is for the people who are out

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Speaker 2: there investigating cases, whether in your law enforcement or you're

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Speaker 2: a civilian looking at these things. Most of the time

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Speaker 2: the suspect is named somewhere within the case file. It's

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Speaker 2: a phenomenon that you just can't explain. At one point,

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Speaker 2: the detectives had this person on their radar and it

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Speaker 2: was just like everything else that missing that one piece

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Speaker 2: to establish the probable cause in order to make an arrest.

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Speaker 2: This is something very similar to what we had faced,

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Speaker 2: But we came from the school of looking at cases

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Speaker 2: without reading the files first, right, So if you had

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Speaker 2: an active homicide, you wouldn't go into a filebox and

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Speaker 2: start reading all or booths. They don't exist. So we

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Speaker 2: would do things such as the crime scene walk through

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Speaker 2: with the photographs. But the other bonus that we had

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Speaker 2: in the Bronx was that during the eighties, the district

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Speaker 2: attorney had a program that they videotaped every crime scene,

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Speaker 2: so this crime scene was actually included, so we were

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Speaker 2: able to actually watch the crime scene in living color

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Speaker 2: twenty something years later, which was a bonus. And there's

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Speaker 2: something that I've been preaching to police departments and DA

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Speaker 2: squads everywhere I go, that every homicide that happens should

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Speaker 2: be videotapes, especially now when things are so cheap you

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Speaker 2: could do it with an iPhone.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. I could not agree more. And

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Speaker 1: I tell you one thing I've been preaching for years.

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Speaker 1: Incorporate drones. Get that overall you can see every possible

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Speaker 1: entrance and exit, and then take that drone and do

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Speaker 1: the a level of where the perpetrator would have walked

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Speaker 1: in or out. It's a tremendous gift that we have now.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, It's actually something I have actually included in the

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Speaker 2: new book right about using drones in order to do

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Speaker 2: these crime scenes, specifically outdoor crime scenes, but they're useful

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Speaker 2: for indoor crime scenes. And people say, well, how I mean,

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Speaker 2: you can't be flying this thing in somebody's living room. No,

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Speaker 2: it's about getting it above the ground. Almost look like

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Speaker 2: that Google map view, because this is how you find

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Speaker 2: extended crime scenes. This is how you find areas where

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Speaker 2: the suspect could have escape from, and you could find

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Speaker 2: all the different things because evidence could be all along

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Speaker 2: that path that the person has fled. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: as simple.

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Speaker 1: As that, no question. And let me tell you I've

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Speaker 1: got a detective. He says, if you can use a

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Speaker 1: drone to go into a building to search to keep

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Speaker 1: your officers safe, then you take that same drone and

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Speaker 1: you can go in a crime scene inside the home

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Speaker 1: or building first before you go in and do your walkthrough.

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Speaker 1: It's absolutely one of the best tools we have right

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Speaker 1: now for documenting.

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Speaker 2: It's something I wish that we had when we were

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Speaker 2: doing this stuff because we had so many cases that

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Speaker 2: could have benefited from this. So I tried to talk

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Speaker 2: to as many people as I can, and that's one

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Speaker 2: of the reasons why I wrote the book to because

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Speaker 2: it gives me a wider search, a wider audience. But unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: police departments are getting away from cold case squads because

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Speaker 2: of the great what I referred to as resignation and retirements,

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Speaker 2: and there's not enough people left to handle these cases

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Speaker 2: because they all long term investigations. But I tell you,

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Speaker 2: with the two new federal laws that passed last year,

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Speaker 2: they're in trouble if they don't have a cold case squad.

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Speaker 1: You know, there was a law pass not long ago

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Speaker 1: in Indiana that said a family that had a cold

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Speaker 1: case that felt like their local jurisdiction didn't do enough

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Speaker 1: could give the cold case to the state police. And

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Speaker 1: as soon as I saw that, I thought, this is

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Speaker 1: never going to work. They're going to be inundated, They're

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Speaker 1: not going to be able to turn around in that room,

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Speaker 1: They're going to have so many requests. So I agree

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Speaker 1: with you that you've got to do it beforehand, and

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Speaker 1: you've got to get ready or before something like that

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Speaker 1: becomes enacted, because I mean, buddy, you're going to be

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Speaker 1: overrun pretty quick. Going back to Charles and Stephen, now

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Speaker 1: they had a two year old younger brother and lived

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Speaker 1: with their mama on Valentine Avenue. Was there anything that

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Speaker 1: stuck out to you from the beginning about the address

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Speaker 1: or any similar transactions, anything that made you say, hey,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, I know something about this. You know

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Speaker 1: two thousand Valentine Avenue, or I know something about this

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Speaker 1: general area.

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Speaker 2: One thing about two thousand Valentine Avenue had had a

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Speaker 2: checkered past, and one of the things as a cold

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Speaker 2: case investigator that you must do is look for companion cases,

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Speaker 2: the cases that could be connected to yours, because they

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Speaker 2: can each hold the piece of the puzzle to the

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Speaker 2: one that you're investigating. So we did all of that right,

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Speaker 2: so you figure with being you would look at We

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Speaker 2: went through FBI's BYICAP right, the Violent Criminal Apprehension Program,

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Speaker 2: to identify other types of incidents where children were stay

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Speaker 2: up at death and you know, left and kind of

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Speaker 2: you know, staged in the way that they were, and

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Speaker 2: unfortunately it's not it wasn't. It didn't come up with

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Speaker 2: any other hits, so we knew we were dealing with

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Speaker 2: somebody who this might have been their first time dealing

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Speaker 2: with maybe children at this point. Because in the Bronx

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Speaker 2: back in the eighties and nineties, it was a very

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Speaker 2: violent place and I think we had about eight or

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Speaker 2: nine thousand open homicides just from ten years prior, so

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Speaker 2: there were a lot of cases and you weren't dealing

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Speaker 2: with situations where you had you know, drug on drug crime,

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Speaker 2: drug dealers killing each other, at gang killing each other,

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Speaker 2: or when you had instances of where prostitutes were picked

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Speaker 2: up and found murdered. I mean, you're dealing with two

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Speaker 2: small children. So this was an outlier from the type

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Speaker 2: of homicides that we were looking at, and that's what

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Speaker 2: really attracted our attention to this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it would have gotten much engine two,

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Speaker 1: especially they're not sexually assaulted. There were two at one time,

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Speaker 1: they never left the premise of where they lived. I mean,

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Speaker 1: all of those things are very unusual. And then I

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Speaker 1: believe it was Steven that had some defensive wounds exactly.

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Speaker 2: We know that he was killed second because he saw

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Speaker 2: his brother as he was coming down the staircase, and

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Speaker 2: then he put up a fight at the bottom of

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Speaker 2: the staircase. But you know as well as I do,

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Speaker 2: anybody who has the high ground, especially if you're an

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Speaker 2: adult against an eight year old, it's going to be

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Speaker 2: rather easy to get control of them. And he fought

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Speaker 2: for his life for at least a minute or so there,

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Speaker 2: and unfortunately he was aim able to get around him

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Speaker 2: and get out. And the ironic part of this is

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Speaker 2: if he was able to do it, that staircase led

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Speaker 2: directly into the courtyard where somebody would available to hear

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Speaker 2: its screams. For sure.

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Speaker 1: Now, most of the time, if somebody attacked you with

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Speaker 1: a knife, they hold you in some way, they grab

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Speaker 1: a part of your shirt or something where they're holding

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Speaker 1: you to stab you. Do you think that there's any

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Speaker 1: chance there could be DNA own their clothing.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's always a chance, right, It's just unfortunately that

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Speaker 2: either it wasn't recovered at the scene and secured well,

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Speaker 2: as I said, a young way to understand the value

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Speaker 2: of that kind of evidence back then, or it was

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Speaker 2: vouchered and we were just neighbor able to locate it.

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Speaker 2: And the case file, like I said, it was old

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Speaker 2: and we had the duplicates of the duplicates on the form.

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Speaker 2: Do you know when you type it, you make four

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Speaker 2: or five copies. It's not ideal. We had a special

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Speaker 2: place where we would open up these cases because you

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Speaker 2: never know what you were going to find in some

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Speaker 2: of these boxes. I mean, we found boxes with bloody

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Speaker 2: shirts of them. I mean, you name it. Because policing

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Speaker 2: was much different back in the eighties and even the nineties,

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Speaker 2: it was.

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Speaker 1: Not something that they even understood. To protect the integrity

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Speaker 1: of that scene, there was a lot that had to

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Speaker 1: be taught, and a lot of training and a lot

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Speaker 1: of understanding that you shouldn't walk through blood possible exactly.

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Speaker 2: I mean, even in some of the videos that we've

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Speaker 2: seen over the years when we were doing the stuff,

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Speaker 2: you'd have detecting smoking cigarettes in the crime scene, you know,

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Speaker 2: stamping them out in and you're just sitting there shaking

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Speaker 2: your head. You're like, my god, as a supervisor, you'd

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Speaker 2: have a stroke. To see what people would you would.

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Speaker 1: Have a stroke exactly right, Yeah, and again we did.

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Speaker 1: It sounds crazy, but we didn't know. I mean I

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Speaker 1: remember even when I first learned the Lockhart principle in college,

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Speaker 1: I was like, that sounds crazy. I don't take something

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Speaker 1: and leave something. But then you work two or three

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Speaker 1: of these scenes and you realize, oh my lord, that happens,

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Speaker 1: you know, so it is real. And again there's not

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Speaker 1: enough training. And that's why things like your new book,

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Speaker 1: the Cold Case Handbook, is so imperative, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of the interviews that you do because here's something else

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Speaker 1: I noticed. And maybe it's because you're a professor and

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Speaker 1: you're a teacher at heart, but even as you do

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Speaker 1: interviews on the national news, you're teaching and you're training

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Speaker 1: at a very basic level. I mean, I love the

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Speaker 1: way you talk and the way you form, like, here's

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Speaker 1: the scene, this is what law enforcement has done. And

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Speaker 1: then you gradually go into and this is what they

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Speaker 1: could do and this is what they should do to me.

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Speaker 1: And I just want to be very very clear. You

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Speaker 1: can't overstate the way you deliver a message.

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Speaker 2: I do appreciate that, especially coming from you. And what

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Speaker 2: I try to do is when I do a lot

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Speaker 2: of TV stuff, and like you said, I try to explain,

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Speaker 2: I just I don't do the cops speak. I don't

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Speaker 2: do that, you know, this is the detective speak and

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Speaker 2: start meming acronyms that people don't know. I try to

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Speaker 2: explain everything, but I try to also provide people with

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Speaker 2: a solid foundation of where I'm coming from in certain aspects.

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Speaker 2: If it's based on my experience, I'll say based on

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Speaker 2: my experience. If it's something that is basically, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is what scientific experience or scientific experimentation, now we'll

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Speaker 2: call that out too. I have seen a lot of

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Speaker 2: things lately from other individuals. I won't name anybody, but

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Speaker 2: sometimes when they go on television, I kind of question, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, what are you doing? It's just there's a

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Speaker 2: time and a place for everything, and I try to

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Speaker 2: make sure that you just be real. I call it

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Speaker 2: like it is too. I don't sugarcoat any I tell

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Speaker 2: people I'm not a bakery. I don't sugarcoat anything. It

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Speaker 2: is what it is. And I kind of speak my mind,

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Speaker 2: which has been probably my doubtful in my lifetime too,

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Speaker 2: because certain people don't want to hear the truth. Well,

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Speaker 2: I always tell people that they don't ask me. But

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Speaker 2: I've had a couple of arguments with people or other

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Speaker 2: experts on TV too, which some of them are kind

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Speaker 2: of fun.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think from the hill, flat out honest, here

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Speaker 1: it is. You asked me for it. Those are the

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Speaker 1: kind of things to me that are imperative on these

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Speaker 1: cases because if we talk around stuff and we don't

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Speaker 1: flat say, hey, the fact that these children were not

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Speaker 1: sexually assaulted matters. And here's why it matters. The fact

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Speaker 1: that they weren't taken from their home to another location matters.

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Speaker 1: Here's why I can tell you that perpetrator is right there.

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Speaker 2: We believe this was personal too, and not so much

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Speaker 2: about the kids, but you know, against the mother of

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Speaker 2: the kids. It's definitely something that needed to be explored.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like you said, a million things could have happened.

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Speaker 2: It could have been kidnapped, this for ransom, It could

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Speaker 2: have been anything. But this was something shortly where they

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Speaker 2: left the house too, And this wasn't like, you know,

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Speaker 2: they were coming home from school. Now, this happened on

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Speaker 2: the way to school, within a matter of minutes from

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Speaker 2: them leaving the house, because from when they come out

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Speaker 2: of their apartment. And unfortunately, back in the eighties, we

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Speaker 2: didn't have surveillance videos, So if God forbid, this happened today,

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Speaker 2: it'd be video surveillance of that courtyard like there is today.

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Speaker 2: If you go over the two thousand Valentine Avenue, there's

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Speaker 2: not only security, there's gates you can't get in. There's

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Speaker 2: all kinds of crazy stuff that happens over there.

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Speaker 1: From what we know, I mean, they didn't scream, there

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Speaker 1: wasn't anything like that. There obviously wasn't gunfire. There wasn't

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Speaker 1: somebody that busted through there and ran through the courtyard bloody.

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Speaker 1: So again that leads me to think the person is

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Speaker 1: on the inside, the person is right there.

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Speaker 2: Or somebody that the kids knew, that they were comfortable with,

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Speaker 2: and that security guards knew. So if that person didn't

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Speaker 2: live there, which is a possibility that the guards knew

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Speaker 2: who they worked because they were constantly visiting or coming

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Speaker 2: to the place, we got, hey, how you doing, and

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Speaker 2: then we have to go okay, you know, and then's

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Speaker 2: walk by. I mean, we know access control is really important,

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Speaker 2: but unfortunately sometimes people get lazy and you see the

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Speaker 2: same person every day they come visit, and then it

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Speaker 2: becomes an automatic like oh, here he comes, and just

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Speaker 2: hit the buzzer and with the person in.

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Speaker 1: Now, let me ask you something with the five boroughs.

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Speaker 1: I know you worked Queens and I know you worked

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Speaker 1: the Bronx. When you work a case, no matter what

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Speaker 1: it is, homicide or missing person, do you work different

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Speaker 1: in those different neighborhoods.

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Speaker 2: No. Yeah, people don't realize New York City's made up

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Speaker 2: of five counties or five boroughs, which we call them.

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Speaker 2: So you have New York County, which is Manhattan, King's County,

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Speaker 2: which is the Bronx. You have Queens, you have Staten

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Speaker 2: Island which is Richmond County, and you have the Bronx.

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Speaker 2: So I was the CEO of the NYPD's Bronx Cold

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Speaker 2: Case Squad. However, because there was only three supervisors to

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Speaker 2: cover five boroughs, I used to cover Queens and Brooklyn also,

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Speaker 2: so we were spread pretty thin. But like everything, else

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Speaker 2: you have detectives that you can trust, right, And that's

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Speaker 2: one of the things that if any chief of police

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Speaker 2: out there listens to this podcast and they're looking to

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Speaker 2: put people in this unit, besides their ability to be

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Speaker 2: able to investigate cases, you also have to have the

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Speaker 2: ability of being trustworthy and that they could be left

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Speaker 2: alone for time, for a long time, sometimes without supervision,

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Speaker 2: and they're going to do their job and do their work.

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Speaker 2: That's an important aspect of picking people to work in

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Speaker 2: a cold case squad is trust. That's critical, yes, trust

415
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Speaker 2: and so yeah, we had one policy and procedure for everything.

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Speaker 2: So for instance, our definition of a cold case was

417
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Speaker 2: just no more active leads. It didn't have a time

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Speaker 2: frame on it, so I know a lot of places

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Speaker 2: you know it has to be a year old or

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Speaker 2: three years old before it could be declared. The nice

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Speaker 2: thing about what we dealt with is we had a

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Speaker 2: good relationship because we all worked at detective squads, so

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Speaker 2: we knew a lot of people, including the supervisors that

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Speaker 2: when we would go look at cases, they would actually

425
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Speaker 2: throw cases at us and say, here, Joe, take this

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Speaker 2: case because we know who, we know who the purpose

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Speaker 2: I just don't have time, drowning and grand larsities. Just

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Speaker 2: do it, clear it. We don't care who gets the clearance.

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Speaker 2: That was a good part of it that helped us

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Speaker 2: do well in our job, so to speak, and be

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Speaker 2: able to be recognized from the work we did. But

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Speaker 2: a lot of times it was detectives giving us good

433
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 2: cases that they just didn't have the time to work on.

434
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 2: Because New York City we have a homicide squad, but

435
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 2: they don't work really catch active homicides per se. They're

436
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 2: more of a supplemental group. They will investigate some cold

437
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 2: cases or other things out there, but it's not like

438
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,119
Speaker 2: La right where there's a homicide and the homicide squad

439
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,199
Speaker 2: does everything. We run it by each detective squad, and

440
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 2: we have seventy seven precincts, so we have seventy seven

441
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 2: different detective squads, but everyone works and does the same thing.

442
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: Well, see, I just didn't know, if you know, the

443
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 1: different neighborhoods had like a different vibe, a different rhythm.

444
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: They just the way you approach was different. Well that's

445
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 1: what I was asking, Like, in other words, this neighborhood,

446
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: you might could do a you know, neighborhood canvas pretty

447
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 1: quick whereas over here they're not going to respond to

448
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: a canvas. You're wasting your time. If there was another

449
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: way to kind of do it, That's what I was.

450
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 1: You know, the.

451
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 2: Bronx in Brooklyn are a tough neighborhoods to work in.

452
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 2: It you're the police. Generally the two most violent have

453
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 2: the two most violent precincts in there. So I've had

454
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: the pleasure or unfortunate pleasure. However, you want to look

455
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 2: at it as working and working as cops as a

456
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 2: supervisor in both boroughs too, doing patrol work. It's interesting

457
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 2: because you have different cultures and people too, so and

458
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 2: each each town has its own thing. So when I

459
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: worked in Brownsville, their model was never run never will

460
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 2: you know, bedsty do or die. I mean that's the

461
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,439
Speaker 2: kind of stuff that you're dealing with. Yeah, that's the

462
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 2: kind of Yeah, the mentality that you're dealing with too.

463
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 2: And things have gotten probably i'd say worse over the

464
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: last couple of years because of all of the mass

465
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 2: eatier about the cops so how bad they are and

466
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 2: everything else. So I'm imagining that it's even tougher today

467
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 2: than dealing with it than I was going back in

468
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: that timeframe.

469
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: We have seen in Atlanta some neighborhoods that have transitioned completely.

470
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: They don't look the same, they don't have the same people,

471
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 1: they don't have the same religion, they don't have the

472
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: same background. It's nuts. So again, the way you approach

473
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 1: now is completely different. You have to know who is

474
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: in your town, who's in your zone, who's in your jail,

475
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 1: and you know who's on your beat, so that you

476
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: know how to approach, how to talk. It shouldn't matter

477
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: if you're in Chinatown or Wall Street. You should be

478
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,479
Speaker 1: able to maneuver and get people to talk to you,

479
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,120
Speaker 1: and even.

480
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: People who are hostile to you as the police. But

481
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 2: you know, you pull up in certain neighborhoods, everyone and

482
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: in the building knows you're there before you even get

483
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 2: into the door. So you know, they see they see

484
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 2: you pull up in a black Chevy and Pola. Right,

485
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 2: they know you're not the full of brushman. They know

486
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: you're not selling vacuums. You know, you step out of

487
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 2: the car and everyone knows that the cops are here. Right,

488
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: you'll hear the whistles and the thing. You know, all

489
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 2: kinds of crazy stuff that's going on and it's a

490
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,479
Speaker 2: certain point you're like, listen, I'm not here for any

491
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 2: of that stuff. I don't care. This is what we're

492
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 2: here for, you know. And a lot of times, as

493
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: you know, right, I mean, how you approach people. I

494
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 2: don't care if they are gang members, they're drug dealers.

495
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 2: Everybody has information that they can help you with. Yeah,

496
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 2: some don't want to Some don't want to talk to

497
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 2: you in public, and that's why you have a business card.

498
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 2: And that's why on the back of those business cards

499
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 2: you should have the crime Stoppers information, so that anonymous

500
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 2: tip line. So that's somebody who is verbally in the

501
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 2: street saying get away from me, I don't want to

502
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 2: talk to you, get out of here, blah blah, and

503
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 2: you hand them a card and they take it. Right

504
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 2: after all that whole big show, then you know exactly

505
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 2: what it was all about. Sure, So it's an important

506
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 2: aspect of it. And you have to it's like being

507
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 2: a comedian and you have to work the room sometimes

508
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 2: and you have to know your audience. And like you said, going.

509
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: Back to these two little boys, Charlie and Steven, what

510
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 1: is it about their case that still pulls you? Still

511
00:25:58,920 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: draws you.

512
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of bad crime scenes and to

513
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: see children are always tough. So when you're watching these videos,

514
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 2: you're also you know, then you're taking these things into

515
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 2: the memory. So I've been now retired twelve years, and

516
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 2: i still have reoccurrences of those videos coming up in

517
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 2: my head. Now. I'm talking about seeing lots of live

518
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: crime scenes and then you know, dealing with nine to

519
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: eleven aspects after the fact and you know, doing the

520
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,479
Speaker 2: forensic side of that and sifting through all that stuff.

521
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 2: This is what I still remember. And you know, people

522
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: would say, well, it's a case that you can't solve

523
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: and you just need to let it go, and no,

524
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 2: you just can't let these things go. So you still

525
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 2: try to, you know, encourage those that are in charge

526
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 2: now to keep on, you know, with the fight because

527
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 2: we have a strong indication, we have a name, We

528
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: pretty much feel that this is the person, but we

529
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 2: don't have enough evidence to establish powerble cause it's as

530
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: simple as that. And unfortunately that happens an awful lot

531
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:56,479
Speaker 2: in these cases.

532
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 1: And you know a lot of times somebody will ask me,

533
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: why are you going to highlight a case where you

534
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: know it's never going to be solved or you can't

535
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 1: do anything else about it. Here's why listening to you

536
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: talk and telling people the importance of videotaping, people are

537
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 1: going to hear you, and then somebody's going to go, yeah,

538
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: why aren't we doing that? And then now everything is

539
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: changed going forward. So you basically have Charlie and Steven

540
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 1: that are going to transform an apartment in the way

541
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: they do business. And if they solve ten percent fifteen

542
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: percent more cases, if they have better video or flat

543
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: have video to show a jury, you're going to have

544
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: better conviction rates because you're given the jury more So,

545
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: what you're doing maybe is not solving their case, but

546
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: because of them and through them, solving hundreds more that

547
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: would not have been.

548
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 2: And there also could be about making sure that you

549
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 2: secure your evidence properly. In the old cases, make sure

550
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: you identify where they are and toured properly. I mean,

551
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you how many times that we found

552
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 2: things with DNA on it back from the eighties and

553
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: nineties that were secured and plastic and then the whole

554
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: DNA sample was ruined until we realized that you know,

555
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: years later that yet put everything in paper. So like

556
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: you said yes, every time you every time you talk

557
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 2: about something or you know, you learn from it and

558
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 2: you can improve things. And also in a case like this,

559
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 2: if you're saying, yeah, why are you still bothering whether

560
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: you're never going to find it, well, because there are

561
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: things that can happen, right, Sometimes somebody can get religion,

562
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: or somebody's on their deathbed and they want to now

563
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 2: you know, talk about it, and there are things that

564
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 2: can happen. Maybe this individual or individuals told somebody and

565
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: or confided in somebody and now you know what, somebody

566
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: down the road gets arrested and now they want to

567
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 2: get out of jail free card. And that's just for

568
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: this case. This is for any cold case. You know, Hope.

569
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: I always say hope is not a plan, but sometimes

570
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: when you're dealing with cold cases, it's all you have

571
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: and you just have to just keep on hammer and

572
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 2: away and like everything else, the harder you work, the

573
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: luckier you get.

574
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: Hope is not a plan, but sometimes it's all you

575
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: get that is fantastic, and you're you couldn't be more correct.

576
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 2: You know.

577
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: I got to tell you something funny, Sergeant. When I

578
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: was a little girl, I told my Mama that I

579
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: was gonna marry an Italian man. And she said that's

580
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: a good choice, you know, you know, and she goes why,

581
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: and I said, because detectives are Italian. So I wanted

582
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: that last name. So to me, where I got that from,

583
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: of course, was like TV and movies, Like all of

584
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: these New York City detectives, they all had those names, right,

585
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: and so I wanted that last name, which my maiden

586
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: name was not Italian, so I thought I got to

587
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: go get that through marriage. And then I was sound,

588
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: you know, like a detective. And of course I'm married

589
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: a scontsman. But it's okay. But every time I hear

590
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: like you and other NYPD homicide detectives specifically speak, that

591
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: childhood understanding comes back. But I will tell you sometimes

592
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: I hear people say arguably or perhaps well, I will

593
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: flat tell you that New York City homicide detectives are

594
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: the best in the world. You spending any time with

595
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: us today is a gift, and I just want you

596
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: to tell us any last thing you want us to know,

597
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: or tell us about y'all's training or your homicide school,

598
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: anything you want us to know, to really showcase just

599
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: what y'all are about because it's more than nine to eleven,

600
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: and it's more than this brotherhood, and it's more than

601
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: this training. This is not something new. I think it's

602
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: always been this way for NYPD.

603
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 2: Well, we have, unfortunately, a lot of experience in this

604
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: kind of area, especially going back in the seventies and

605
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: eighties and nineties, and we had life I first got

606
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: into the detective squad, there were detectives there that had

607
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: forty years worth of experience. On top of that, we're

608
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 2: talking about men and women that were you know, hardcore sixties, seventies, eighties,

609
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: through the riots and all the other things that were

610
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: happening in New York City, and they were able to

611
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: pass on that experience. And then over time where we

612
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 2: see people retiring just after twenty years and then you know,

613
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 2: the resignations are up now because all the stuff that's happening,

614
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 2: you lose that experience. So the only thing that you

615
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 2: can help replace that is with training. So we spent

616
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: a lot of time developing courses and getting them accredited

617
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: for people too, so that they can go to these classes. Specifically,

618
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: we have the Death Investigations Course, we have a Criminal

619
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: Investigations course, that every detective who gets promoted has to

620
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: go through it. And it's about trying to learn how

621
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: to solve the toughest cases. And I would say dealing

622
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: with cold cases is not only the toughest cases, but

623
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: they are America's toughest cases. They're open for a reason.

624
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: If it was that easy, they would have been closed already.

625
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: So it's they needed to visuals who will not get

626
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: deterred by anything. No matter what obstacle you put in

627
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: front of them, they are going to try to, you know,

628
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: go over it, go under it, or go around it.

629
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: And it's that's the bottom line about how you do it.

630
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: So it's about tenacity, it's about persistence. And New York

631
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: has that has the reputation of being, you know, the

632
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: dog eat dog world, and I think that has a

633
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: lot to do with that.

634
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: Sergeant, thank you so much for not just coming on

635
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: to Zone seven, but being a part of mine and

636
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: reminded us the importance of talking about Stephen and Charlton y'all.

637
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I

638
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: always do with a quote. It's important for these unspeakable

639
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: things to be spoken of because they actually happened in

640
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: this World John Walsh. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is

641
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: Zone seven

642
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: Non