Speaker 1: Hello, Sarie, Welcome to the show. Oh my gosh, look
Speaker 1: at you too. You asked for to god, how many
Speaker 1: years has it been and you have not aged a
Speaker 1: day a day. It's been seven since we started shooting.
Speaker 1: We've had to do that map seven years. Wow, how
Speaker 1: are you tell me? Tell me everything from the beginning
Speaker 1: of when we've stopped seeing each other. Tell me everything.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, so we stop seeing each other at
Speaker 1: the end of season two, and so since then, I've
Speaker 1: been on two shows. So I was three yeah, three
Speaker 1: years on New Amsterdam for NBC and then and Dom
Speaker 1: is this going to blow your mind? What I've been
Speaker 1: working on recently? I literally just saw it in my
Speaker 1: notes and I was like, wait, did I know not
Speaker 1: from the previous one? Surely, like I think I would
Speaker 1: have remembered that note. Go ahead please, um. So, currently
Speaker 1: I am working on the TV adaptation of Vampire Academy,
Speaker 1: which Dom was in the movie. I'm so excited for this.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited for I saw the casting announcements. I
Speaker 1: think they're brilliant. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, congratulations Shrine and
Speaker 1: it's you. It's It's really been one of our favorite
Speaker 1: bits of doing this is to get to reconnect with
Speaker 1: folks that kind of started our journey on the show
Speaker 1: and then now have gone on to do astronomically incredible things.
Speaker 1: I mean having come from astronomically incredible things and you know,
Speaker 1: made a made a pit stop at our little, our
Speaker 1: little shadow Hunters island along the way. But you know,
Speaker 1: we we just wanted to make sure we brought you
Speaker 1: on to to talk to you about you and what
Speaker 1: it is you do and everything that you know you're
Speaker 1: doing since. But talk to us a little bit. Let's
Speaker 1: start at the beginning. We started the end. Let's start
Speaker 1: at the beginning. Talk to us a little bit about
Speaker 1: how you decided you wanted to become a writer, and
Speaker 1: what your first kind of what made you fall in
Speaker 1: love with it, and and what was that journey like
Speaker 1: for you getting into television. Wow, okay, um, I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm going into a network meeting. U um. So
Speaker 1: I'm South Asian and so obviously, being South Asian, I
Speaker 1: was expected to be a doctor. I was very I
Speaker 1: think in high school I basically said no, I don't
Speaker 1: want to do that. And it was scandalous, absolutely scandalous.
Speaker 1: And when I told them what I wanted to do instead.
Speaker 1: It was even more scandalous. I said, I wanted to
Speaker 1: do radio television film, and so my parents were like, well, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're not paying for that unless you, you know, do
Speaker 1: something in addition to that that you can actually make
Speaker 1: money and make, you know, support yourself. So my oldest
Speaker 1: brother had gone through advertising, so I double majored in
Speaker 1: advertising and making a television film and wow, um, I
Speaker 1: took a sidetrack into advertising advertising career for a bit.
Speaker 1: But I had this nagging little voice in the back
Speaker 1: of my head saying, why aren't you writing? Because I've
Speaker 1: been kind of a closeted writer since I was in
Speaker 1: middle school. And so while I was in New York
Speaker 1: working on Madison Avenue, I took some TV writing classes
Speaker 1: at this place called Gotham Writer's Workshop, which is awesome,
Speaker 1: and I decided, you know, being a neurotic writer. I
Speaker 1: think you guys probably know this. Writers are incredibly neurotic,
Speaker 1: and we're terrified of showing our stuff to anyone. Like
Speaker 1: you guys don't probably have this problem because you're in
Speaker 1: front of people all the time and it's just like
Speaker 1: you have to be out there. No, we very much
Speaker 1: do Yeah. It depends, like there are certain people I
Speaker 1: would show certain things too, and like there's certain things
Speaker 1: my mom wouldn't want to see, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like this, there are like times where I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I watch all of it and then like skip episode
Speaker 1: four because you don't want to see what I do
Speaker 1: in that, Like my grandmother, I'm like, I'm naked in
Speaker 1: this episode, so maybe don't watch that one. You know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think there's some stuff in Vampire Academy where I'll
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, Dad, don't watch that. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of cursing in that in that episode in it. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's so funny. You know Mark Mark Waters, who directed
Speaker 1: the movie, he used to run this drill with us
Speaker 1: and I've kept it in my arsenal ever since then.
Speaker 1: And it's called We're allowed to swear on this fortunately
Speaker 1: because it's a it's a podcast, and he calls it
Speaker 1: pass and it's which When he first mentioned it to me,
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know if I'm willing to
Speaker 1: do that, and then he was like, no, no no, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's you. You say the lines, you say the dialogue
Speaker 1: as you would were You were like, were this an
Speaker 1: artrated movie? Where you were allowed to swear and do
Speaker 1: whatever you want. And I was like, oh, interesting, And
Speaker 1: when it does is sort of it sort of elicits
Speaker 1: these new emotions coming through, and then you try and
Speaker 1: do the exact same line, the exact same way, with
Speaker 1: the same emotions and then strip the you know, the
Speaker 1: lewd language way. And I've I've continued that in my career.
Speaker 1: I keep that up and it's sometimes it works and
Speaker 1: sometimes it doesn't work. But that's so interesting. I'm literally
Speaker 1: looking I guess you guys just released your first like
Speaker 1: image of Lissa and Rose together. Wow, this is so
Speaker 1: I'm so excited for this. When you first sort of
Speaker 1: made a foray into television and then made your way
Speaker 1: to Shadow Hunters, did you know of the books, had
Speaker 1: you read them previously? What was your experience and what
Speaker 1: was your sort of first impression of this world? What
Speaker 1: drew you to it? Well, it's funny because the genre
Speaker 1: is just my thing, and so I I, well, back
Speaker 1: then I don't have as much time to keep up
Speaker 1: on all the genre because you know, there's like ten
Speaker 1: million d C and Marvel movies like I much. But
Speaker 1: back then it wasn't as there wasn't as many and
Speaker 1: especially love fantasy. So when the movie came out, I
Speaker 1: saw it in the theaters and so I didn't know
Speaker 1: back then that it was attached to a book series.
Speaker 1: And so when the TV show was being developed, I
Speaker 1: had just finished writing like a fan, well, no, it's
Speaker 1: more like a supernatural pilot myself, and so that was
Speaker 1: submitted to the showrunner, and it was very much in
Speaker 1: line with Shadow Hunters and that it was supernatural, it
Speaker 1: was female forward, and it was y a. And so
Speaker 1: when I got on the show, or when I was
Speaker 1: basically getting the offer, I started reading all of the books,
Speaker 1: and the books just like transported me, and I thought
Speaker 1: there was such a rich world, so much to do
Speaker 1: and say with the material that I was already excited
Speaker 1: because it was genre, but then when reading the books,
Speaker 1: I was exponentially excited with what we could do with
Speaker 1: the world. The thing that scared me about it was
Speaker 1: just how dense the mythology was, and I was like,
Speaker 1: how are we going to explain this to the Well
Speaker 1: that makes another question, how do you as a writer
Speaker 1: take something, especially someone who you know sort of specializes
Speaker 1: in genre and fantasy, how do you take a world
Speaker 1: like that? And break down and I adjusted and translate.
Speaker 1: How do you even begin to figure that out? Thankfully,
Speaker 1: it wasn't just me. There was a um And part
Speaker 1: of it is because I've worked on a bunch of
Speaker 1: shows now that have been based on books of some sort.
Speaker 1: And so one of the shows that I worked on
Speaker 1: was Resolian Aisles, which is based on a book series
Speaker 1: of Missing Mystery book series, and one of the things
Speaker 1: that I learned from that showrunner was when you adapt
Speaker 1: a book, you kind of have to throw away the
Speaker 1: book and then come back to the book in some fashion.
Speaker 1: So what what we looked at because there's the dense mythology,
Speaker 1: but there's also the aspect of the books that is
Speaker 1: it's very much in Clary's head, right, and so when
Speaker 1: you look at the books as a whole, there's not
Speaker 1: as there's not a lot of plot because so much
Speaker 1: is happening internally, and so we have to manufacture plot
Speaker 1: for the screen, and then we also have to manufacture
Speaker 1: story for the other characters because everything is told in
Speaker 1: the books from Clary's point of view. That's true. Um,
Speaker 1: So that is part of throwing away the booking and
Speaker 1: bring coming back to the book and it's also just
Speaker 1: coming up with that list of what are the things
Speaker 1: that the fans are going to kill us if they
Speaker 1: don't see what are those moments that are iconic, and
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how we're going to build story
Speaker 1: around that was just that was so much. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: not something too that I think you as a writer's
Speaker 1: room did such a great job at is is doing
Speaker 1: just that as making the experience of this story fresh
Speaker 1: for even the most avid book fan who knows every
Speaker 1: single word in every single line, because you're right, there
Speaker 1: are those iconic moments and characters and character traits and
Speaker 1: little easter eggs throughout, and yet the story still feels
Speaker 1: fresh and new. And it's because it's not in Clary's head.
Speaker 1: It's a new perspective. Yeah. Yeah, but it was the
Speaker 1: thing that I was so excited about was just working
Speaker 1: on a female empowerment show. And okat you just like
Speaker 1: you owned it on screen, you really owned it on screen.
Speaker 1: So thank you for that. Well, thank you. I I've
Speaker 1: said this time and time again. I you know, growing
Speaker 1: up as an announced the little girl, I wanted a
Speaker 1: character like Clary and I looked for it. And you
Speaker 1: know the fact that not only clarity, but every single
Speaker 1: woman on the show, every single female care every character
Speaker 1: in general, had their own sense of agency and their
Speaker 1: own unique sense of empowerment in their own way. And
Speaker 1: it was such a beautiful example. It made me so
Speaker 1: proud to be a part of the show that was
Speaker 1: telling the story that you know, an empowered female isn't
Speaker 1: just one person or one kind of person. It's it
Speaker 1: can be anyone no matter what your gifts are, no
Speaker 1: matter what you look like, no matter whether you're a
Speaker 1: shadow hunter or oral warlock or a vampire, you can
Speaker 1: still be a badass female. Absolutely. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of our show covered that, which you know, from my
Speaker 1: position of privilege, it's it's a nice thing to be
Speaker 1: a part of, you know, it's a nice thing to
Speaker 1: be able to be inspired by every day, to be
Speaker 1: to be able to come to work and see these
Speaker 1: stories being told from these people and think like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is the direction we should be going, like not
Speaker 1: just in film and TV, but more as a society.
Speaker 1: This is where we should be like leading things that
Speaker 1: that everyone stories are important, Like everyone telling their story,
Speaker 1: whether it's from a place of strength or or you know,
Speaker 1: a place of weakness is the wrong way of putting out.
Speaker 1: I was having this conversation with someone recently about um,
Speaker 1: you're often stronger. Well, I think we were talking. I'm
Speaker 1: been talking about shadow Hunters. I currently remember. The crux
Speaker 1: of the conversation was you're often stronger in a situation
Speaker 1: where you allow yourself to be more vulnerable and taking
Speaker 1: that position there and the ability for you guys, especially
Speaker 1: as a writer's room, to develop these worlds where the
Speaker 1: strongest characters were vulnerable, but that didn't make them weaker,
Speaker 1: made them stronger because they had the you know, the wherewhere,
Speaker 1: the wherewithal and the emotional strength to be able to
Speaker 1: share that vulnerability with the people around them and also
Speaker 1: then tackle it, which I think does show a huge
Speaker 1: amount of strength as well, and that sort of yin
Speaker 1: yang of the emotional plethora of being able to deal
Speaker 1: with all of them. And I think you guys did
Speaker 1: a really spectacular job at that well and done to
Speaker 1: your point too. We had not only so much diversity
Speaker 1: in in character and in storyline, but it's a real
Speaker 1: credit to the writer's room because you weren't afraid to
Speaker 1: shy or you never shied away from things that were
Speaker 1: uncomfortable or or difficult or could have had pushed back
Speaker 1: in seven years ago when we were shooting from from Anyone,
Speaker 1: you know, you took the bull by the horns and said, no,
Speaker 1: we're going to tell these stories about diversity. We're gonna
Speaker 1: tell these stories where we and we're not going to
Speaker 1: be afraid to put our characters through the ringer to
Speaker 1: to show that you know, you can overcome these things,
Speaker 1: and not only as an actor but as an audience.
Speaker 1: That's it's really gratifying. So thank you. Okay, that's That's
Speaker 1: the thing that I love most about genre is being
Speaker 1: able to talk about social justice issues in allegory and
Speaker 1: that was one of the beautiful things that was just
Speaker 1: built into the books from the very beginning. And to
Speaker 1: dumb to your point about vulnerability, I was rewatching some
Speaker 1: of the episodes leading up to this, and just like
Speaker 1: the amount of vulnerability that you brought to Jace, that
Speaker 1: there's a there's this just like this beautiful look that
Speaker 1: would come on your face when you were especially okay
Speaker 1: for example, when um we discover Michael Whalen and the
Speaker 1: just talked about this, yeah, and so the that look
Speaker 1: on your face, Oh well, it's you know, so much
Speaker 1: of it comes from you guys. So I explained this
Speaker 1: briefly when we were dealing with the episode, and then
Speaker 1: we actually spoke to Adam as well. The weirdest thing,
Speaker 1: Adam is now my girlfriend's acting coach as well as
Speaker 1: a working actor. So my girlfriend had a premiere at
Speaker 1: Santa Barbara International Film Festival, which was this amazing film
Speaker 1: called Juniper. If you get a second, go and watch it.
Speaker 1: There actually very women led, three women created over Quarantine.
Speaker 1: It's an incredible film. You should go and check it out.
Speaker 1: But we then had Adam on and we were talking
Speaker 1: about this and so much of this came from you guys, right.
Speaker 1: So the way I the way I sort of discovered
Speaker 1: the emotion with Jace as like sat down and I
Speaker 1: broke down. How would someone who's emotional or vulnerable feel
Speaker 1: that when their entire life they've been told that is
Speaker 1: not allowed, that's your that's not what you feel. And
Speaker 1: what I kind of came up with I would circle
Speaker 1: through different ideas and I didn't feel right, and then
Speaker 1: I will come back and whatever. And what I landed
Speaker 1: on is it would be like a little boy would
Speaker 1: be like a little boy, you would be experiencing it
Speaker 1: for the first time, like a little boy whose parents
Speaker 1: had to leave and you couldn't communicate that they were leaving,
Speaker 1: like or you little boy who stubbed his toe but
Speaker 1: his favorite toy taken away or had to eat his
Speaker 1: peas whatever it is like that, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like it's silly, but that emotion of like I can
Speaker 1: feel that, you know when you can feel it when
Speaker 1: you're about to cry it in the back of your
Speaker 1: throat first and you're like, oh, I don't know what
Speaker 1: this is, like why is this happening to me? And
Speaker 1: then then it starts to like manifest itself in your body.
Speaker 1: And that's that's how I wanted to show Jace because
Speaker 1: he he is in those moments. He's like a little boy,
Speaker 1: the one, the big one that I remember at that moment.
Speaker 1: And then in season two be it must be post sword,
Speaker 1: post accidental genocide, and he's up on the roof and
Speaker 1: Alec comes and and comes to comfort him, and he
Speaker 1: turns around and he's just a broken He's just a
Speaker 1: broken little boy, like he's completely lost and he just
Speaker 1: needs his best friend to hug him. That's all he needs,
Speaker 1: and that that came from that came from you, guys.
Speaker 1: That started from you, guys, like I took it and
Speaker 1: I ran with it a little, but the basis of
Speaker 1: that came from you. And this is I guess it's
Speaker 1: sort of leading to the question. Then it's as it
Speaker 1: should be. We're not interested in hearing me talk. We've
Speaker 1: heard episodes and episodes of that. We're interested in hearing
Speaker 1: you talk. The question then from that is where does
Speaker 1: the sort of responsibility lie with with things like Jason?
Speaker 1: Then moving on to like because you sort of almost
Speaker 1: semi handed off to the actors and then the crew
Speaker 1: on set, and have there ever been opportunities where actors
Speaker 1: have surprised you? Have they've taken things and you've been like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's interesting, That's not what I thought was going to
Speaker 1: happen there, or maybe less calm than that. Were you
Speaker 1: watching and what I wanted to not that? Oh God?
Speaker 1: Before I answer that, I just have to say, Um,
Speaker 1: hearing Tom, hearing you in your natural accent is blowing
Speaker 1: me away a little bit, because even on set you
Speaker 1: would be in Jon like who are you? Yes, Tom's
Speaker 1: going through a phase where he thinks he's British. We're
Speaker 1: dealing with a favorite joke. He's like's actually from Kentucky
Speaker 1: and this is a whole act that he's put on
Speaker 1: to get parts and girlfriends over the course of his life.
Speaker 1: And if anyone repeats that, I hate to break it
Speaker 1: to you, but you just told the entire podcast audience,
Speaker 1: so streame way, We've done interrupting. Done interrupting, Please tell
Speaker 1: us tell us about your process through handing off your
Speaker 1: writing to actors and to the crew on set. But
Speaker 1: in terms of like the one, not the one time,
Speaker 1: but the one that surprised me the most most is um,
Speaker 1: what was Emerald in the alternate universe when she's playing
Speaker 1: the nerdy girl And I hadn't envisioned that in my head.
Speaker 1: I just was like, this is a girl that's um
Speaker 1: because just you know, she's kind of a science nerd,
Speaker 1: she's a computer tech nerd, but she just ran with
Speaker 1: it and went ultra nerd. And then there's this moment
Speaker 1: where she's dancing at the party and doing like a
Speaker 1: half lobot fit. She allowed herself to just look so
Speaker 1: so nerdy and so awkward and it was just brilliant.
Speaker 1: And I was just like, oh my god, that is
Speaker 1: not what I was expecting. That was not what I
Speaker 1: had in my head. But this is so much better. Well,
Speaker 1: and that's that's the magic of a show like Shadow Hunters.
Speaker 1: And we saw this time and time again with different departments,
Speaker 1: but particularly as you know, the writers and the cast
Speaker 1: got to know each other and we sort of created
Speaker 1: these characters stories together. There's a kind of symbiosis that happens,
Speaker 1: and you know, every we were so lucky to have
Speaker 1: a group of people in all departments that just set
Speaker 1: ego aside and decided to share and create together and
Speaker 1: truly be you know, collaborators together and it really um
Speaker 1: you see that time and time again, and that's that's
Speaker 1: such a great example of that. Yeah, that was that
Speaker 1: was kind of like the beauty and it's the beauty
Speaker 1: of working on any show is like you see, you
Speaker 1: see certain things in your head as you're writing, and
Speaker 1: when the actor takes it and makes it better, you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is why I work in this meeting now, is
Speaker 1: there something for you in particular that was important to
Speaker 1: you into the story or an episode that you look
Speaker 1: back and you're like, oh, that was my favorite, or
Speaker 1: the scene was I really loved, Like this meant something
Speaker 1: to you. Yeah, you're a genre nerd and you read
Speaker 1: the books and you watched the movie. What was what was?
Speaker 1: There had to have been things where you're like, this
Speaker 1: needs to be in the show. Um, for me, it
Speaker 1: was again it was what was baked into the books
Speaker 1: from the beginning. It was the classism and the racism,
Speaker 1: and um, how that affects people, and then showing how
Speaker 1: one person can make a difference in that because Clary
Speaker 1: does start bringing everybody together, because I mean, just the
Speaker 1: way that society has fractured in the most recent years,
Speaker 1: it can take it can take one person to do
Speaker 1: that fracturing. It can also be it can take one
Speaker 1: person to start bringing all those people together. And I
Speaker 1: want a Shadow Hunters for today too again to show
Speaker 1: that this is possible. We can bring We can bring
Speaker 1: people act together and work together and not try and
Speaker 1: tear each other down. And the moment when I think
Speaker 1: it was I can't remember which season now, but when
Speaker 1: Clary gets all the downworlders together to help I think
Speaker 1: it was to go save Meliorn. Right, Oh, yeah, that
Speaker 1: was season one, episode nine. WHOA, that's pretty good. Well,
Speaker 1: we just finished the three watch of episode and actually,
Speaker 1: I believe your episode of the podcast is going to
Speaker 1: air right after our rewatch of that episode, so that's
Speaker 1: perfect awesome, Yeah, because that's the thing about that was
Speaker 1: that I think in the next episode or one of
Speaker 1: the episodes right after that, Luke is talking to Simon
Speaker 1: about how um that that's what is special about Clary
Speaker 1: is that she can bring all these people together that
Speaker 1: don't want to talk to each other, that don't want
Speaker 1: to work to get together, that actually hate each other,
Speaker 1: to do something that's super important. And that was too.
Speaker 1: That was to avoid a down worlder war, was that right?
Speaker 1: I think that was to avoid the Clave breaking the accords? Correct, Yes,
Speaker 1: so we Melion was on his way to be executed,
Speaker 1: which would have broken the cords and separated the divides,
Speaker 1: separated the ties that the down the somewhat tenuous already
Speaker 1: ties that the down world had via the accords to
Speaker 1: the Clave and then through each other, and we potentially
Speaker 1: have started the down World civil war. So yeah, they yeah, wow,
Speaker 1: good memories, well done. We just watched it like two
Speaker 1: weeks ago, so that's like it's fresh in my mind.
Speaker 1: Did a job And what about the things that you
Speaker 1: did change from the books? You know we're as a writer.
Speaker 1: Are you ever trepidacious about doing that or or is
Speaker 1: it was there ever a moment where he went I
Speaker 1: don't know, but I mean our fandom granted, it was
Speaker 1: always pretty accepting of most of the changes that we made,
Speaker 1: but we didn't know that when we were starting off
Speaker 1: the show there was one change that was going to
Speaker 1: go in. I think it was one of my episodes
Speaker 1: that we shied away from because we thought the pandom
Speaker 1: might kill it. I mean, you didn't do it. Um,
Speaker 1: there was I'm trying to remember which episode it was now,
Speaker 1: but it might have actually been the Alternate Reality one
Speaker 1: because Alec is trying to find Jas through the parab
Speaker 1: A ty bond. Yeah, and um, it was my pitch
Speaker 1: that we break the Para ty bonds. And the reason
Speaker 1: being was because, um, again, we know that the the
Speaker 1: audience that's watching the show is some of them are
Speaker 1: book readers, but some of them are just coming in
Speaker 1: a genre fans, And so when we jumped into this world,
Speaker 1: we jumped in Granted we jumped in with Clary, but
Speaker 1: we never got to see what becoming a pair of
Speaker 1: a tie was all about and what you have to
Speaker 1: do what that bond is. And so yeah, the idea
Speaker 1: was break the pair of a Tai bond and then
Speaker 1: watch um Jace and Alec have to reform it on screen. Cool.
Speaker 1: I'm also glad you didn't because we were a lot
Speaker 1: of hard but but but that would have been a
Speaker 1: really interesting take on that. It's interesting because we did.
Speaker 1: We did end up sort of somewhat showing it in
Speaker 1: uh In must have been season three when we went
Speaker 1: back through with flashbacks. Um all I really remember it
Speaker 1: is that put that poor kid um I can't remember
Speaker 1: his name for the life of me. I don't look
Speaker 1: it up. The poor kid who played me had to
Speaker 1: wear one brown contact lens the whole way through, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm so sorry. I know it's uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: but it's interesting that you so, you're you're aware that
Speaker 1: there is this pressure. You know, you're taking something that
Speaker 1: has already had a couple of versions. But obviously you're
Speaker 1: doing Vampire Academy, now you've done Shadow Hunts. You it's
Speaker 1: something do you find you thrive under that pressure or
Speaker 1: it's something that just doesn't bother you, Like you keep
Speaker 1: going back, you keep coming back from You're used to it. Now.
Speaker 1: I think when I came into shadow Hunters, I knew
Speaker 1: there was a big fandom, but I didn't realize how
Speaker 1: rabid they were until the show started. Um yeah, I
Speaker 1: got my first death threat on shadow Hunters, and so
Speaker 1: I was like, I've a ride. Yeah, Um, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, Twitter is Twitter, what are you gonna do?
Speaker 1: But I think I'm I don't think I'm less cautious.
Speaker 1: There's part of me that is I think about it
Speaker 1: in terms of longevity of the show and longevity of
Speaker 1: what's going to entertain the audience, because again, as rabid
Speaker 1: as book fans are, there's still only a uh small
Speaker 1: percentage tis yeah, yeah, yeah, And I thank god for
Speaker 1: writers being brave enough to take those chances honestly, because
Speaker 1: you're right. And I also I do feel like I
Speaker 1: fans of the books say they want a carbon copy
Speaker 1: of the book, but I don't know if they do.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think if you watched it and
Speaker 1: you saw the exact same story just done instead of
Speaker 1: reading and not in your imagination, it might get a
Speaker 1: little boring quite quickly, like you know how these stories end.
Speaker 1: So I don't know if that's what they speaking of
Speaker 1: death threats my like my first And it's so funny that, like,
Speaker 1: of a thousand comments in a day, the one that's
Speaker 1: slightly negative is the one that I hold on too
Speaker 1: for a week and it ruins my week. That when
Speaker 1: I first joined, when I first got announced for the show,
Speaker 1: there were like three people who consistently commented sort of
Speaker 1: the same thing. And it's that I wasn't blond, and
Speaker 1: I was like, God, wait till you find out I'm
Speaker 1: not half angel, You're gonna be furious. Not half angel.
Speaker 1: I'm not half angel. No, I'm upset now more was
Speaker 1: the pit. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it, Because they do.
Speaker 1: They ruin your day and for anyone out there listening,
Speaker 1: hopefully there's none of you listening. But don't send death threats.
Speaker 1: That's childish. Don't send death threats. Just stop it. It's
Speaker 1: nothing out of you, guys. There's a piece of love,
Speaker 1: peace and love and joy and happiness. We're great, We're
Speaker 1: telling stories. There's no need for that. And if you
Speaker 1: do send them my way, because I don't have a Twitter,
Speaker 1: so you won't send them to the right place. Are
Speaker 1: you in Instagram? Yeah? You know. A couple of years ago,
Speaker 1: I took a I took a social media step back,
Speaker 1: like I was approaching my thirties, and I unfollowed everyone,
Speaker 1: which led to all these questions about relationships and whatever,
Speaker 1: and my in my head, I was like, this is
Speaker 1: the exact thing that I think is no good here,
Speaker 1: Like this is the exact thing that like, I can
Speaker 1: use my Instagram now. My Twitter went and my Instagram
Speaker 1: is now really just for the work that I do,
Speaker 1: the charities that I work with, and then the occasional
Speaker 1: picture of Dan, like my dog that's that's that's my favorite,
Speaker 1: and I think just and it's so individual. Social media
Speaker 1: is such a big part of our world and arguably
Speaker 1: our industry. But for me, I noticed that it didn't
Speaker 1: impact my career at all, which there was a part
Speaker 1: of me that was afraid that maybe it would. And
Speaker 1: I personally was was happier. Like I didn't spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time looking at my phone because the algorithm
Speaker 1: was gone, so they because I didn't follow anyone to
Speaker 1: look at anything there was, it didn't know what to
Speaker 1: show me, so I didn't. I wasn't glued to my
Speaker 1: phone the whole time, and I just found myself a
Speaker 1: little happier because of it. So that's sort of for
Speaker 1: for you and anyone who was wondering that's the reason
Speaker 1: why I did that. Yeah. Well, and we've been very
Speaker 1: lucky too with shadow Hunters, and that's I mean, that's
Speaker 1: part of why we're here doing a podcast, is that
Speaker 1: our fandom is so loving and so beautiful and you know,
Speaker 1: all in all, yes, obviously there's people that are disgruntled
Speaker 1: and don't say the nicest things from time to time,
Speaker 1: but on the whole, the fandom is an incredibly supportive one.
Speaker 1: That's that, you know, the reason we do conventions all
Speaker 1: over the world. It's the reason that we are here
Speaker 1: today doing this part podcast because they've taken this community
Speaker 1: far beyond ourselves and far beyond the characters and the
Speaker 1: story and all of this and made it like a
Speaker 1: support system for each other. And you know, that's you
Speaker 1: know why we're here celebrating it. But we have the
Speaker 1: advantage of seeing the beauty of social media in a
Speaker 1: lot of our experiences as supposed to the other side. Um, sureen,
Speaker 1: I have a question that I've asked everyone, and that
Speaker 1: phrase is going to be like old hat by the
Speaker 1: time this comes out, But yeah, right. Yeah, Is there
Speaker 1: is there like a scene or an episode that you
Speaker 1: loved you loved either writing or watching or just being
Speaker 1: a part of any way, shape or form. And is
Speaker 1: there one that you were that was more difficult to
Speaker 1: either write or it was more complicated or or took
Speaker 1: a little more out of you to to write for
Speaker 1: whatever reason? Pret a challenge of sorts, just a scene, no,
Speaker 1: no anything, episodes, episode, character condensed season yet Um the
Speaker 1: the episode where we tell basically the whole back story
Speaker 1: where we meet m Valentine and Jocelyn and Luke as
Speaker 1: their younger selves. That was a really tough episode to write,
Speaker 1: just because there was just so much information that had
Speaker 1: to be conveyed and trying to figure out how to
Speaker 1: parse that into scenes that would be interesting engaging to watch.
Speaker 1: Yat you probably remember you and Um and Luke were
Speaker 1: just in a room for I don't know, an entire day,
Speaker 1: just shooting this long sequence of talking back and forth
Speaker 1: about what was going to be The flashbacks were interstitial
Speaker 1: in there. But if you think about it as well,
Speaker 1: what have we had only seen that long scene between
Speaker 1: Clary and Luke on screen, I mean listening to Isaiah
Speaker 1: tell that story. But at the same time, it's like, well,
Speaker 1: we didn't come. We didn't come to Shadow Hunters for
Speaker 1: story time, so how do we show this in an
Speaker 1: engaging way? And um, yeah, So when we would cut
Speaker 1: back to you and Isaiah, it was adding, you know,
Speaker 1: you were getting that emotional thrust to it of this
Speaker 1: is how impacted Luke or this is how it's impacting
Speaker 1: Clary in this moment. And so that was probably that
Speaker 1: was one of the hardest episodes to write and and
Speaker 1: actually just to break the story in total, because it's
Speaker 1: like we have we know that this is what the
Speaker 1: episodes about. That's not something we think about really, you know.
Speaker 1: We get we get the words, and we're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this makes perfect sense. This has been done beautifully in
Speaker 1: the script, like that's just how we get it, but
Speaker 1: we never think about, like, oh, wow, this must have
Speaker 1: been really difficult to to like segue in bits of
Speaker 1: people's past that are super important to the future but
Speaker 1: really do or it didn't in this case, but have
Speaker 1: the potential to put a real stopper in the motion
Speaker 1: of the episode. Right, how fascinating? And what about what
Speaker 1: about your favorite is was there a favorite thing that
Speaker 1: you wrote? I would say also that episode, just because
Speaker 1: it ended up turning out so beautifully. Oh interesting, that's
Speaker 1: really cool because the way that everybody took that episode,
Speaker 1: the cast and the crew and the props people. I mean,
Speaker 1: it wasn't that the first time that we saw the
Speaker 1: Mortal cup in person? I think so and Sword and
Speaker 1: you know, address for the first time. So many things
Speaker 1: we saw off of the or you know, even even
Speaker 1: Isaiah half his random werewolf transformation, you know, and we
Speaker 1: it's the first time we saw Magnus doing his thing,
Speaker 1: which then spurned a whole set or spawned a whole
Speaker 1: set in in future seasons. Yeah, you're right, it established
Speaker 1: so much. Yeah. The other part of that episode that
Speaker 1: I loved was the first part of the story, which
Speaker 1: was between Clary and Magnus and just watching Magnus come
Speaker 1: down from Magnus too. Oh crap, I gotta tell her
Speaker 1: the story now, and oh, this is not going to
Speaker 1: make me look good while he's string a cauldron of stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's the it's that wonderful moment that you know,
Speaker 1: as we talked about with the Vulnerability, where you take
Speaker 1: these characters that are so grandiose and powerful and you
Speaker 1: humanize them time and time again. And I think up
Speaker 1: until that point we didn't really know if Magnus was
Speaker 1: a good guy or not. This is the first time
Speaker 1: we sort of saw him as as a real ally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that was that the first time. That was like
Speaker 1: the first quote unquote date between Aleca Magnus too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: fish at the end somewhere around there, he didn't he
Speaker 1: ask for him to come to like he needed his
Speaker 1: energy in virgin energy. Which that's a book quote, isn't it.
Speaker 1: Where is that was that? Of you guys? That is
Speaker 1: a very good question, And I am going to plead
Speaker 1: the fifth I don't remember either, and I'm usually admittedly
Speaker 1: I'm usually really good about that as well. But well,
Speaker 1: how about how about listeners out there? Why don't you
Speaker 1: tell us because it's been seven years and we've lost
Speaker 1: track of certain things. Indeed, indeed, I figured that wherever
Speaker 1: I stumbled, the listeners will fill in. Yeah, honestly, that's
Speaker 1: how I've gotten by these past seven years since filming
Speaker 1: the show. When they'll pick up the slack for me
Speaker 1: if I mentioned like A in the wrong episode or whatever,
Speaker 1: or have you ever had one of those questions where
Speaker 1: it's like something messes up with continuity or something, and
Speaker 1: they're like, there's stell was in your right hand and
Speaker 1: now it's in your left hand. The answer is always
Speaker 1: like fancy shows award a warlock did it? Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I was. Yeah, it was the whole thing. It was
Speaker 1: a portal. When you go into a portal, things change
Speaker 1: hands all of a sudden. Yeah it was, That's what happened.
Speaker 1: Just you know, slide of hands. Jason is a master
Speaker 1: of slide of hand. It just does it on the
Speaker 1: random for reasons. Oh, this is interesting. So there's there's
Speaker 1: something in my notes that said, in an interview, you
Speaker 1: would have loved to explore the super Dark Clary. What
Speaker 1: would that have looked like? So I think, explain what
Speaker 1: super Dark Cleary is in your head, and then and
Speaker 1: then maybe tell us what that would have looked like.
Speaker 1: So super Dark Cleary, I think in my head was
Speaker 1: I think what we ended up sort of doing with Jay.
Speaker 1: So it might have been before we took you know,
Speaker 1: Jace off with Valentine. I think it might have been
Speaker 1: that my head, it was clearly that went off with
Speaker 1: Valentine instead. Interesting, interesting, really interesting. Wow, it's so funny
Speaker 1: that these like, I mean They're never small choices to
Speaker 1: you when you're in the room, you know, you as
Speaker 1: you're saying, you sort of agonize over whether or not
Speaker 1: they're the right choice to put them in the show.
Speaker 1: But it's so interesting that these choices were made, these
Speaker 1: discussions were had that would have like shaped the show
Speaker 1: audiences even as his actors, we don't we don't know
Speaker 1: these conversations that are had, and they would have shaped
Speaker 1: the futures of these characters. I think it's so fascinating,
Speaker 1: like what what what does that conversation? How does it
Speaker 1: go down? Like you because we know it's sort of
Speaker 1: we just spoke to Michael Reese and it's like very
Speaker 1: sort of roundtable discussion, you right, and you share stories
Speaker 1: and whatever. That's a good question, ton, because I'm really
Speaker 1: curious to know, you know, every time we go visit
Speaker 1: the writer's room with such a place shrouder than this
Speaker 1: magical mystery with writing all over the walls that were
Speaker 1: not allowed to look at, and you'll just sort of go,
Speaker 1: don't don't read the walls, don't look at anything, don't
Speaker 1: ask questions. We're here created and so you tell us,
Speaker 1: give us, give us a peek behind the curtain as
Speaker 1: much as you can. A writer's room is an incredibly
Speaker 1: collaborative place. It is a round table discussion. Some writer's
Speaker 1: rooms are you're in couches. I would fall asleep in
Speaker 1: those one I have to sit straight. It'll be a
Speaker 1: bad scene. But and it is a lot of people
Speaker 1: just pitching out ideas and then when you land on
Speaker 1: so exact for an example, um, should it be Clary
Speaker 1: that goes off with Valentine or a Jason goes off
Speaker 1: of the Valentine And you land on those two scenes,
Speaker 1: and then people just you know, you set up camp
Speaker 1: and it's like this little war between two sides, and wow,
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's amicable obviously because you're in the restroom,
Speaker 1: but it is, uh, it is you go through the
Speaker 1: pros and cons and what would that do dramatically? What
Speaker 1: is mean for the character? How would that Because I
Speaker 1: think that happens kind of last episode of season one.
Speaker 1: It's in season one, so you know that this is
Speaker 1: going to be launching you into season two, and so
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, so how is that going to affect
Speaker 1: the arc for season two? So it's a huge decision
Speaker 1: obviously to make because you're trying to decide which character
Speaker 1: is going to be broken at the beginning of season
Speaker 1: two and how are they how are you going to
Speaker 1: build them back up to their former selves or into
Speaker 1: a better person over the course of season two, And
Speaker 1: thank you all very much for the beginning of season two.
Speaker 1: That was just wonderful for me. He's straight into like
Speaker 1: torture and horrible birthing stories and then finally get back.
Speaker 1: Oh god, that sweater. Now, obviously that's not your fault,
Speaker 1: that's nobody's fault. Really, I put on this sweater I
Speaker 1: don't need. Do you know this story? I don't think so. No,
Speaker 1: So the getting have season two, I had the sweater
Speaker 1: this like chunky knit, green, like itchy, fucking horrible sweater.
Speaker 1: I hated it, absolutely hated it. And I remember talking
Speaker 1: to Shelly, costume designer, who I adore, absolutely adore, and
Speaker 1: we obviously joke about this now, but I put it
Speaker 1: on in the costume fitting and I'm like, look, I'm
Speaker 1: really not normally the guide, but this is really itchy,
Speaker 1: Like it's really like starting to bug me, and the
Speaker 1: more I move it's going to be itchy and whatever.
Speaker 1: And they're like, it's fine. Honestly, You're wearing it for
Speaker 1: like half of the first like twenty minutes of one episode,
Speaker 1: and then you get tortured and it's you know, it's
Speaker 1: all off and whatever, unbeknownst to me ended up back
Speaker 1: in it, and that was that was the costume for like,
Speaker 1: not even joking, like three episodes back to back like
Speaker 1: it was. So then there's more fighting and number two
Speaker 1: jump off the side of the boat. So I wake
Speaker 1: up in the water and this fucking thing, and then
Speaker 1: I have to run back and find Alec and I'm
Speaker 1: like covered in blood and the more that gets on it,
Speaker 1: then it's like itchy and sticky all at the same time.
Speaker 1: The end of that episode where I finally got to
Speaker 1: take it off, I was like, Shelley, take this away
Speaker 1: from me, and like burn, it's just get rid of it.
Speaker 1: Nobody should be subjected to this ever again. And I
Speaker 1: think she may have or maybe it's framed in a
Speaker 1: museum somewhere. I don't know. There was an interesting question here,
Speaker 1: and I can I can sort of semi tie it in.
Speaker 1: So the question is what was your first day on set? Like,
Speaker 1: So this is interesting from a writer's perspective because so
Speaker 1: when we were doing When we were doing Vampire Academy,
Speaker 1: Danny Waters Mark's brother who wrote Vampire Academy, UM came
Speaker 1: to me like the firs first day, we like just
Speaker 1: got to the studio in Pinewood and he came to
Speaker 1: me and he goes, hey, man, have you seen the
Speaker 1: Attic Library set? And I was like I haven't. I
Speaker 1: have just arrived. And he's like, come on, let me
Speaker 1: show you. Let me show you. And he was like
Speaker 1: more excited than me to show me. This set that
Speaker 1: we've done is read about for months and months and months.
Speaker 1: So what was your first day? Like, Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember if I went to set first
Speaker 1: or if I went on a location scout first. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: my first day on set was UM was just like
Speaker 1: walking into the Cathedral the Institute, basically the Cathedral Institute
Speaker 1: and just seeing my my, my face just went, holy crap,
Speaker 1: this is amazing. You just seeing what the production designers
Speaker 1: had come up with, and then holding props and seeing like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is amazing. And then when we
Speaker 1: on location, on the location scouts, seeing what interests would
Speaker 1: look like. UM, for example, was that my first day
Speaker 1: was that my first episode that might have that might
Speaker 1: have been so yeah. So seeing all of that and
Speaker 1: having our amazing director Oscott, and we're still friends to
Speaker 1: this day. I love him dearly, give him our best.
Speaker 1: I will, I will he just I mean, working with
Speaker 1: somebody whose career goes back to the Jefferson's first of all,
Speaker 1: was just blew my mind. Um also um an African
Speaker 1: American director who's been in the business for that long,
Speaker 1: and watching him work with you guys in this collaborative
Speaker 1: way because he comes from theater, and seeing how his
Speaker 1: brain was thinking about things, all of it, all of
Speaker 1: it just blew my mind all together. Yeah. Well, and
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting that you say that, because that's what
Speaker 1: I remember about working with Oz is that, as you said,
Speaker 1: we had such a challenging episode where, you know, it
Speaker 1: could have very easily been just me and Harry sitting
Speaker 1: in chairs and and Isaiah sitting on a bed, you know,
Speaker 1: having story time, and between the way that you wrote
Speaker 1: it and the way that he directed it, we were
Speaker 1: always trying to find ways to either move one of
Speaker 1: us or move the camera and keep keep the audience
Speaker 1: engaged and keep the energy up and flowing. And you
Speaker 1: know it it takes. It takes a village, It takes
Speaker 1: a whole team of everyone being cognizant of those things
Speaker 1: for an episode to be as impactful as that was.
Speaker 1: It was a lot of fun and it also just
Speaker 1: felt I felt a little bit like a kid in
Speaker 1: the candy store is like, this is just so much
Speaker 1: fun watching everything just come from Yeah, that is I
Speaker 1: think how a lot of us felt kind of throughout
Speaker 1: the especially That's why I like to ask that question,
Speaker 1: especially that first time when you walk on set and
Speaker 1: you're like, Wow, this is what it's going to look like.
Speaker 1: This is incredib of all. So do I So that
Speaker 1: sort of leads me neatly to my next question, and
Speaker 1: it might be the same answer. Do you have a
Speaker 1: favorite moment? Do you have a favorite moment on either
Speaker 1: on set or seeing it on screen for the first time,
Speaker 1: or writing in the room where you had like a
Speaker 1: light moment, any of Do you have any or like
Speaker 1: top top few Maybe that might make it easier. Give
Speaker 1: us a couple, um, okay. One that that comes to
Speaker 1: mind is I was walking around, um the area where
Speaker 1: everybody's trailers were, and I ran into Harry and we
Speaker 1: started chatting and as I'm chatting with Harry. He's just
Speaker 1: like doing these little dance moves in front of me,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is fun because I you know,
Speaker 1: the first time I saw Harry was on Glee, and
Speaker 1: so his big thing was dancing, and this was something
Speaker 1: that we kept trying to do. In the writer's was like,
Speaker 1: how can we how can we get a place in
Speaker 1: a scene or create a scene or create an a
Speaker 1: moment where we can just let Harry dan good. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: and essentially you did that because that's so much of
Speaker 1: his magic was his the way that he moves, and
Speaker 1: that's I mean, we we just did Harry's interview and
Speaker 1: I think the majority of it was and I just
Speaker 1: gushing over him. Um, it's hard not to do it
Speaker 1: with Harry, but but he you know, he has such
Speaker 1: a way with it, and I think I think that's
Speaker 1: you know, each of us, at least. I can't speak
Speaker 1: for myself, but I can speak for being a book
Speaker 1: fan observing the rest of the cast. Everyone was cast
Speaker 1: for a reason, and and everyone you know, in front
Speaker 1: of and behind the camera, everyone is a part of
Speaker 1: this show because of something special that that makes their
Speaker 1: creativity unique and adds to the magic of the show.
Speaker 1: That's so true. Um, and this one's kind of outside
Speaker 1: of the show of I ran into Isaac comic It
Speaker 1: just random. Actually, it's happened twice, I think. Um. One
Speaker 1: time we were on the floor of comic Con and
Speaker 1: my significant others like that I'm saying, and I was like, no,
Speaker 1: is it? And so he screams out Isaiah's name. Isaiah
Speaker 1: turns around. I'm like, hey, like lifts me up. It
Speaker 1: gives me this huge hug. But that's as is just
Speaker 1: like that guy. My popa wolf through and through my
Speaker 1: family friends were on the way to a betha um
Speaker 1: and text me this like grainy photo of Isaiah and
Speaker 1: I was like, have you just like sneakily took a
Speaker 1: photo of one of my car's mates and they were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's him, And I was like it is.
Speaker 1: He's the nicest human being. Got up and say hi,
Speaker 1: like that this this thing is weird, Like go and
Speaker 1: say Hi, like the nicest guy. And apparently they sat
Speaker 1: and chatted the whole play. He's just the He's just
Speaker 1: the nicest. He's the nicest guy. Yeah. The number of
Speaker 1: people that I've run into they go, oh, man, you're
Speaker 1: working with Isaiah, He's just the best. Over the years
Speaker 1: have just been Yeah, just an endless and same thing
Speaker 1: with Harry and and so many others. It's been an
Speaker 1: endless stream of of just love for the Shadow fan. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then my last one that I'll share it was
Speaker 1: there we were setting up for a shot. I can't
Speaker 1: remember what shot it was, and there was a Sarah
Speaker 1: Sarah blade just sitting there and I was like picked
Speaker 1: it up and I was like just grinning at it,
Speaker 1: and show the showrunner a dector snapped a picture of me,
Speaker 1: and I have this picture of me just grinning with
Speaker 1: a stare blade. Oh my gosh. Oh we should if
Speaker 1: we could find that picture and we'll throw it out,
Speaker 1: we would. I've told this a couple of times since
Speaker 1: we were there. I was just at the first live
Speaker 1: convention we did, face to face convention that we did
Speaker 1: in a induceled off and one of the fans that
Speaker 1: because after the show a lot of this stuff got
Speaker 1: sold off, and so yes, how did. I was like,
Speaker 1: I want on this stuff and this this fan had
Speaker 1: my my holsters that I wore from sort of season
Speaker 1: two onwards, um, and let me wear them again for
Speaker 1: the for the first time in like five years. I
Speaker 1: got to put them back on, and it was this
Speaker 1: really and I had that, I'm sure positive that exact
Speaker 1: same face. So I was just looking down like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is so cool, Like I feel like Jay again,
Speaker 1: this is really awesome. M And then obviously begrudgingly, I
Speaker 1: had to give them back and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm great enjoy them. But it is it's so much
Speaker 1: of what we do is like it is like kids
Speaker 1: are Christmas, you know, we get these things and we
Speaker 1: got to read about them in the same way as
Speaker 1: we saw commercials for the toys we wanted when we
Speaker 1: were kids, when we're kids, and I still do that now.
Speaker 1: It's like but and then you actually get to see
Speaker 1: them in person, and that's really cool. It's a really
Speaker 1: cool thing to to to go through, which is so lovely.
Speaker 1: So it's a nice thing to know that there's this
Speaker 1: sort of unity experience between actors writers. Wait, like if
Speaker 1: you can get your hands on the serf plate, you're
Speaker 1: gonna grab it. Well, And I think I think clearly
Speaker 1: this is something that I, you know, will always cherish
Speaker 1: about the show, is that everyone who was involved was
Speaker 1: so passionate about the story and about bringing it to life,
Speaker 1: and truly excited by the world. And I think you
Speaker 1: really see that on screen, um, and you see it
Speaker 1: in the fandom, and you see it in every single
Speaker 1: guest that we are lucky enough to bring on this podcast.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for your time and for
Speaker 1: revisiting this world with us. And you are also a
Speaker 1: co founder and co chair of the think tank for
Speaker 1: inclusion and equity called Right Inclusion, So tell us a
Speaker 1: bit about that and what how you started that and
Speaker 1: sort of what the mission is and how people can
Speaker 1: get involved. Oh wow, okay, Um, it's like I'm I'm
Speaker 1: I'm stid going into two different types of interviews now,
Speaker 1: But it's honestly, things like equity and inclusion. It's such
Speaker 1: a theme for the show and it touched so many
Speaker 1: of the audience members. I think it's really important to
Speaker 1: bring it up. I'm sorry if it came out of
Speaker 1: left field, but I think it's really important to well, no,
Speaker 1: and it's also it's also incredible that you know, a
Speaker 1: show that was so avid in diversity also has people
Speaker 1: like yourself who are then doing that in life and
Speaker 1: in the industry. So Thanksank for inclusion and equity. We
Speaker 1: just call it TIE because it's easier. So TIE was
Speaker 1: born out of like like you said, it's a need
Speaker 1: for UM, equity, inclusion, diversity in the industry in general. UM.
Speaker 1: Since I'm a writer, we focus on writers and authentic storytelling.
Speaker 1: So it's basically we call ourselves a consortium of working
Speaker 1: TV writers and we are BIPAC women, lgbt q I
Speaker 1: A plus disabled writers UM, and we are working to
Speaker 1: ensure better working cond for all TV writers UM, in
Speaker 1: particular those from historically excluded backgrounds and promoting accurate, authentic, inclusive,
Speaker 1: UM and responsible storytelling. Because one of the things that
Speaker 1: we do is we create these fact sheets for writers
Speaker 1: and it's kind of basically by community and showing you
Speaker 1: why why authenticity matters. So what is the harm that
Speaker 1: media has been doing to these to these various communities,
Speaker 1: What are the stereotypes and tropes that have been perpetuated
Speaker 1: for decades? And then also what are better stories that
Speaker 1: we can be telling about each of these communities. UM.
Speaker 1: All of these can be found on our website, which
Speaker 1: is right Inclusion dot org. And then we also do
Speaker 1: an annual report that just digs into how are writers
Speaker 1: being treated, especially how are historically excluded writers being treated
Speaker 1: in writer's rooms? UM? Are their voices being heard? Are
Speaker 1: they being paid as much? Are they being promoted as much?
Speaker 1: That kind of thing, and so trying to get more
Speaker 1: inclusivity to impact authentic storytelling is kind of our basic mission.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. So then do you do then get involved
Speaker 1: with like networks and studios and and all of that
Speaker 1: as well, and and sort of pass along that information?
Speaker 1: We do and UM every year when our report comes out,
Speaker 1: we try and disseminate it as as widely as possible.
Speaker 1: We have some very interesting stats, I would say some
Speaker 1: some some that might be surprising to some, some that
Speaker 1: might be surprising to others. Are you seeing a change
Speaker 1: in the last couple of years, um? Or is that
Speaker 1: still going to take a couple more years of reaction?
Speaker 1: I guess I would say hiring at the lower and
Speaker 1: mid levels is better. UM. The inclusion and diversity in
Speaker 1: upper levels is still not great. So that includes things
Speaker 1: like how many showrunners are from historically excluded backgrounds and UM.
Speaker 1: One of the things that we talked about a lot
Speaker 1: is the lens through which stories are told and so
Speaker 1: it's important for stories to be told through the right lens,
Speaker 1: especially when you're talking about historically excluded communities, because if
Speaker 1: you're shifting that lens or you're filtering it through a
Speaker 1: different lens and it's being told from an authentic perspective
Speaker 1: or even just a third person. You know, I completely
Speaker 1: agree with you, and I think I think when you
Speaker 1: start thinking about it, you can tell as well. You
Speaker 1: can start seeing that like this story is being told
Speaker 1: by someone who's seen it rather than experienced it, you know,
Speaker 1: and that's, um, it's an impossible task, like how do
Speaker 1: you how do you tell that story if you haven't
Speaker 1: experienced that story before. It's it's an impossible thing to do. So, UM,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for for our community as actors
Speaker 1: and creatives and also for these um, historically excluded groups
Speaker 1: that need that representation. Thank you for doing that well.
Speaker 1: And speaking of you know, we were just speaking to
Speaker 1: Nicola about this as well, and she's taken so many
Speaker 1: steps to do the exact same thing on the acting side,
Speaker 1: and it's it's funny with the show, we talk about
Speaker 1: so many empowered female characters and how they were written
Speaker 1: and how they were portrayed on the show. But what
Speaker 1: a lot of people may not realize is that behind
Speaker 1: the scenes, and you know, surrounding the show, in front
Speaker 1: of and behind the camera, is a massive group of
Speaker 1: people that are diverse and and empowered, and women especially
Speaker 1: that are taking strides in an industry that you know
Speaker 1: is it can be rather difficult, and you know, people
Speaker 1: are given chances to do things with their career that
Speaker 1: we never thought would be able to do. And just
Speaker 1: thank you for being that voice, because that's all it
Speaker 1: takes is one person. As you said with Clary, it
Speaker 1: takes one person to change the world, and I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure that might be you. Oh well, thank you. I
Speaker 1: will say the thing that I thought was beautiful. And
Speaker 1: to give an example of this was Nick who played
Speaker 1: Alder Tree, told me once on set that he was
Speaker 1: I think message through Twitter or something one of the
Speaker 1: fans saying just how how grateful they were to see
Speaker 1: a black shadow Hunter, just to be represented on screen
Speaker 1: in that respect, and that just that just made my
Speaker 1: heart leap amazing. I know, we've got to talk to
Speaker 1: Nick because I'm just see my dog's tailor like thanicuous. Well,
Speaker 1: and now that we're in the season two, because the
Speaker 1: illustrious Alder Tree comes sweeping in to change everything? Um,
Speaker 1: what else can we look for? Next? You have Vampire Academy?
Speaker 1: And then what else? What else can we there? You know? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well I mean we don't. But but what ultimately in
Speaker 1: your mind? What would be the next kind of dream?
Speaker 1: Is it the Vampire Academy season two? Are you do
Speaker 1: have other prospects in mind? Or or can you say? Um? Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, I want to say thank you both
Speaker 1: for inviting me and for having me here. This has
Speaker 1: been so much fun and so great seeing you guys again,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, and working with both of you, working
Speaker 1: with the entire cast, really be working with you guys?
Speaker 1: Was um just dream come true? I loved I loved
Speaker 1: every minute of it. I did, and I hope that
Speaker 1: we get to work together again. I do as well. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: to pack about about, I think I went to dinner
Speaker 1: or lunch with him in l a like, right as
Speaker 1: the TV show for Vampire Academy was being conceptualized, and
Speaker 1: we both looked at each other and sort of went,
Speaker 1: I'm too old now. But that's a real shame. I
Speaker 1: would have loved to come back and play him again.
Speaker 1: I think that's that ship that sailed for me. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: that could have been us, that could have been us
Speaker 1: back together again. It's true another time. If you have
Speaker 1: a fast forward to to something in the future, I
Speaker 1: mean the fast forward is right now. I am. I'm
Speaker 1: going to take a vacation. That's all I know. So
Speaker 1: I think that's so smart, so smart. It's such a
Speaker 1: great idea. And we I mean, I know I'm speaking
Speaker 1: for Cat and so so many of the listeners to
Speaker 1: this podcast was so excited to see Vampire Academy. I
Speaker 1: can't wait to see what you've done with it. Um yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm a fan already. I'm stoked. I can't wait to
Speaker 1: see it. Thank you guys all Shrine. We're big fans
Speaker 1: of yours and we're so grateful to have you here.
Speaker 1: And thank you to the listeners for joining us and
Speaker 1: celebrating Shrine. And uh see you next time. Returned to
Speaker 1: the Shadows as hosted an executive produced by Katheryn McNamara
Speaker 1: and Dominic Sherwood. Our executive producer is Lingley. Our senior
Speaker 1: producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia, and our producers
Speaker 1: are Hannah Harris and kristin Vermilia. Original music by Alex
Speaker 1: Kinsey and performed by Alex Kinsey and Katheryn McNamara. The
Speaker 1: episode was mixed by Set the Landscape. Be sure to
Speaker 1: subscribe to return to the Shadows wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 1: and don't forget to leave us a review.