1 00:00:00,210 --> 00:00:27,610 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,630 --> 00:00:31,230 Speaker 1: the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you, as always, so 3 00:00:31,330 --> 00:00:35,150 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our super producer, Max, 4 00:00:35,470 --> 00:00:36,870 Speaker 1: hold the line, Williams. 5 00:00:38,350 --> 00:00:40,659 Speaker 2: What, what, what? I am actually a double agent. I 6 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: actually work for Jonathan Strickland, the Quister. 7 00:00:43,380 --> 00:00:46,059 Speaker 1: I know, I know. But that's, you know, you keep 8 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: your friends close. 9 00:00:47,310 --> 00:00:47,690 Speaker 2: Close. 10 00:00:47,930 --> 00:00:50,690 Speaker 1: You keep your podcast bros closer. 11 00:00:50,850 --> 00:00:52,730 Speaker 2: The closest. Yes, yes. 12 00:00:53,210 --> 00:00:57,070 Speaker 1: And that is none other than the legendary Mr. Noel Brown. 13 00:00:57,210 --> 00:01:00,690 Speaker 1: They call me Ben Bolin. Noel, you and I were 14 00:01:00,730 --> 00:01:05,030 Speaker 1: talking with Max off mic about a little film by 15 00:01:05,050 --> 00:01:07,930 Speaker 1: a guy named Quentin called Inglourious Bastards. 16 00:01:08,370 --> 00:01:10,450 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Quentin Tarantella. 17 00:01:10,970 --> 00:01:11,220 Speaker 3: Yeah. 18 00:01:11,660 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: Tagliatelle. 19 00:01:13,340 --> 00:01:16,179 Speaker 2: I love that. That's way better. That's way better. I 20 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,740 Speaker 2: love pasta puns. 21 00:01:19,140 --> 00:01:23,459 Speaker 1: In that film, Noel, there is an infamous bar scene 22 00:01:23,660 --> 00:01:30,270 Speaker 1: where several spies are assembled, right, in German-occupied territory. And 23 00:01:30,310 --> 00:01:32,330 Speaker 1: they're playing a party game where they put a little 24 00:01:32,490 --> 00:01:35,830 Speaker 1: index card on their heads with a character, right? And 25 00:01:36,110 --> 00:01:40,950 Speaker 1: one guy gets King Kong. Another person gets a character 26 00:01:41,020 --> 00:01:42,459 Speaker 1: named Mata Hari. 27 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,060 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's also a scene like that, and I think 28 00:01:45,100 --> 00:01:49,900 Speaker 2: you should leave, in the episode with Tim Heidecker where 29 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,580 Speaker 2: he's the irritating jazz guy. Oh, no. You know, Tommy 30 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 2: the Worm! Tommy the Worm! 31 00:01:54,060 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, the Colgate Hour? 32 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:57,500 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 33 00:01:57,800 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: Oh, my God, this gets special. 34 00:01:59,060 --> 00:02:01,230 Speaker 2: It's not that exact game. It's a very similar one. 35 00:02:01,300 --> 00:02:02,980 Speaker 2: I think it was not in the next card game. 36 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,860 Speaker 2: I think it was, but the Mata Hari, Ben. Let 37 00:02:05,940 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 2: us get to the point, shall we? 38 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: Yes, yes. Mata Hari, a real... Perhaps most famous for 39 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:19,179 Speaker 1: the way that she allegedly died, reputedly died, facing a 40 00:02:19,460 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: French firing squad, no blindfold. According to the legend, she 41 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,470 Speaker 1: blew her executioners a kiss. 42 00:02:27,490 --> 00:02:36,570 Speaker 2: Did they give her a cigarette at least? In France, 43 00:02:36,590 --> 00:02:37,220 Speaker 2: I would hope so. 44 00:02:37,530 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: I always picture it that way, too. Are you and 45 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,220 Speaker 1: I being unfair to French firing squads? 46 00:02:42,620 --> 00:02:44,700 Speaker 2: I don't know, man. They love ripping darts over there 47 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: in Paris. 48 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: They sure do. 49 00:02:47,980 --> 00:02:48,700 Speaker 2: Even to this day. 50 00:02:49,100 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 51 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:57,370 Speaker 1: And we are speaking from firsthand experience there. Merci beaucoup 52 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:02,310 Speaker 1: to the good people of France. Noel, this person, Mata Hari, 53 00:03:02,510 --> 00:03:07,410 Speaker 1: the subject of today's episode, is fascinating because it combines 54 00:03:07,970 --> 00:03:11,350 Speaker 1: so many things that you and Max and I just 55 00:03:11,770 --> 00:03:17,340 Speaker 1: adore and remain obsessed with. She's a courtesan, she's a spy, 56 00:03:17,740 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: she's traveling around the world. She gets into, what was 57 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,299 Speaker 1: that thing, what was that word we learned a few 58 00:03:25,340 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: years ago, situationships or entanglements? 59 00:03:28,220 --> 00:03:30,820 Speaker 2: Oh, for sure. You always be getting into situations, Ben. 60 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,150 Speaker 2: Is that the same as a situationship or is that different? 61 00:03:33,610 --> 00:03:38,290 Speaker 1: Well, Noel, you and I definitely get into any number 62 00:03:38,330 --> 00:03:39,270 Speaker 1: of situations. 63 00:03:39,290 --> 00:03:42,150 Speaker 2: Well, and some situations require situationships. 64 00:03:42,710 --> 00:03:46,260 Speaker 1: That is true, especially if you're playing reindeer games and 65 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: spy games. From what we understand, Mata Hari took money 66 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,980 Speaker 1: from one side of a conflict, agreed to spy for another, 67 00:03:55,500 --> 00:03:59,140 Speaker 1: and people are still right now divided on how much 68 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:04,660 Speaker 1: espionage Mata Hari actually performed. So, Noel, you, Max, and 69 00:04:04,700 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: I are going to riddle ourselves this in today's episode. 70 00:04:08,260 --> 00:04:09,740 Speaker 1: Was Hari a double agent? 71 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,850 Speaker 2: Don't threaten me with a good time. 72 00:04:11,910 --> 00:04:14,650 Speaker 1: Was Hari a double agent or was she the worst 73 00:04:14,690 --> 00:04:18,150 Speaker 1: spy in history or was she a scapegoat? 74 00:04:19,170 --> 00:04:22,510 Speaker 2: An exceptionally glamorous one at that. And this one comes 75 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,820 Speaker 2: to us by way of our brand new research associate, Natalia. Yes. 76 00:04:27,060 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: Thank you, Natalia, because gosh knows we did not have 77 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:38,570 Speaker 1: the full breadth of a profile about Mata Hari. It's 78 00:04:38,630 --> 00:04:41,190 Speaker 1: a strange name for a lot of people because this 79 00:04:41,270 --> 00:04:44,940 Speaker 1: is a person born in the Netherlands who And obviously 80 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,930 Speaker 1: her birth name was not Mata Hari. It was, help 81 00:04:47,950 --> 00:04:50,290 Speaker 1: me out here, Noel. You're a little better with this 82 00:04:50,350 --> 00:04:51,250 Speaker 1: language than I am. 83 00:04:51,270 --> 00:05:00,060 Speaker 2: Oh, let's see. Margareta Getaruda Zella. Auf Leuarden. Auf Leuarden. 84 00:05:00,180 --> 00:05:03,620 Speaker 2: Nailed it. Okay, nice. Zella. You think her family came 85 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: up with the popular payment platform? 86 00:05:06,260 --> 00:05:08,700 Speaker 1: Let's choose to mark that podcast true. 87 00:05:08,980 --> 00:05:09,670 Speaker 2: Hell yeah. 88 00:05:09,790 --> 00:05:15,610 Speaker 1: So it's August 7th. 1876, when Margarita is born. She's 89 00:05:15,650 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: the oldest of four children. Of those four kids, she's 90 00:05:19,660 --> 00:05:23,420 Speaker 1: the only girl. And her father was a hatter. Points 91 00:05:23,460 --> 00:05:26,220 Speaker 1: to you, Natalia, for going out of your way to 92 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,260 Speaker 1: say this is not a mad hatter, just a regular hatter, 93 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,740 Speaker 1: a haberdasher, a hat maker. 94 00:05:33,270 --> 00:05:36,810 Speaker 2: Okay, so he wasn't all hopped up on the mercury. Right. 95 00:05:37,110 --> 00:05:38,270 Speaker 1: Yeah, not at this point. 96 00:05:38,570 --> 00:05:41,650 Speaker 2: Thank God for that. Ben, I swear, I know the 97 00:05:41,690 --> 00:05:43,690 Speaker 2: name Mata Hari has been floating around in my head 98 00:05:44,010 --> 00:05:46,130 Speaker 2: for many years, and I always assumed it had something 99 00:05:46,170 --> 00:05:48,650 Speaker 2: to do with India. 100 00:05:49,150 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting, right? Especially given the sort of Orientalism 101 00:05:54,640 --> 00:06:00,020 Speaker 1: fad during her lifetime, especially given the exoticization of so 102 00:06:00,060 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: many other cultures around, During her lifetime, we also have 103 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,860 Speaker 1: to mention, by the way, Mata Hari was not born, 104 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,610 Speaker 1: named Mata Hari. We established that. She was also not 105 00:06:12,730 --> 00:06:16,929 Speaker 1: born poor because her father- Because of all that Zell money. Yeah, 106 00:06:16,950 --> 00:06:19,730 Speaker 1: because of all that Zell money. Her father had also 107 00:06:19,930 --> 00:06:24,390 Speaker 1: invested a lot in fossil fuels. He was an oil 108 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: man in practice. So this means that When Zell is 109 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: just about six years old, when Mata Hari is about 110 00:06:32,140 --> 00:06:37,060 Speaker 1: six years old, she gets new school clothes every year. 111 00:06:37,820 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: She rides around in, interesting fact here, Noel, a goat-drawn carriage. 112 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,430 Speaker 2: Like you do when you're living it up. Yeah, she's 113 00:06:46,529 --> 00:06:50,390 Speaker 2: goaded indeed. She also was quite the glamour girl from 114 00:06:50,430 --> 00:06:53,610 Speaker 2: a very early age, but things changed. It took a 115 00:06:53,630 --> 00:06:56,810 Speaker 2: bit of a turn when Zell was around 13. Her 116 00:06:56,890 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: father couldn't keep their extravagant lifestyle going, and he declared bankruptcy. 117 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,140 Speaker 2: Two years later, her mother passed away, and that was 118 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:12,030 Speaker 2: the end of life for Zell, a.k.a. Mata Hari, as 119 00:07:12,110 --> 00:07:14,330 Speaker 2: she knew it, at least up to that point. Upon 120 00:07:14,390 --> 00:07:18,430 Speaker 2: her mother's passing, the family disintegrated for all intents and purposes. 121 00:07:18,870 --> 00:07:23,230 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it came to pass that Zell is sent 122 00:07:23,290 --> 00:07:27,910 Speaker 1: to live with other relatives. Historians are still divided on 123 00:07:28,010 --> 00:07:32,150 Speaker 1: exactly who those relatives were and where they were located, 124 00:07:32,250 --> 00:07:35,820 Speaker 1: but we do know When she was 15, she was 125 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:40,980 Speaker 1: sent to a teacher training college, and her career would 126 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,700 Speaker 1: have been, from that point, to become a kindergarten teacher. 127 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: It didn't last long, though, because the headmaster was a 128 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:49,540 Speaker 1: super creep. 129 00:07:50,140 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, he sure was, and he took quite the liking 130 00:07:53,220 --> 00:07:57,780 Speaker 2: to young Zell, making advances on her. It is possible 131 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: that they had a relationship, though. I mean, the power 132 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,890 Speaker 2: dynamic in this really... Kind of makes it feel like 133 00:08:03,930 --> 00:08:06,570 Speaker 2: that was not consensual and there's no world where it 134 00:08:06,630 --> 00:08:10,910 Speaker 2: was 100%. The whole thing became quite the scandal and 135 00:08:10,990 --> 00:08:13,870 Speaker 2: Zell was asked to leave the school because, of course, 136 00:08:13,910 --> 00:08:15,950 Speaker 2: she was. Because those were the days where you were 137 00:08:15,970 --> 00:08:18,610 Speaker 2: going to always blame the victim and give her the 138 00:08:18,670 --> 00:08:22,230 Speaker 2: boot and let the creepy headmaster creep on creeping. 139 00:08:22,850 --> 00:08:25,890 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And as far as we could tell, that 140 00:08:25,980 --> 00:08:30,450 Speaker 1: did continue. she may well have not been the first 141 00:08:30,570 --> 00:08:34,410 Speaker 1: victim booted out of the institution. Just to make that 142 00:08:34,490 --> 00:08:39,290 Speaker 1: historical note. So if we are Zell at this point, 143 00:08:40,370 --> 00:08:44,130 Speaker 1: it's our second time as a teenager that we're forced 144 00:08:44,190 --> 00:08:49,490 Speaker 1: to move. This is the first scandal young Zell will encounter, 145 00:08:49,550 --> 00:08:55,380 Speaker 1: but it's far from the last. No, in 1895, Our 146 00:08:55,460 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: main character, our protagonist, Zell, is 18 years old and 147 00:08:59,820 --> 00:09:03,250 Speaker 1: she's reading the newspaper as you do. And she sees 148 00:09:03,410 --> 00:09:07,929 Speaker 1: a personal ad in the newspaper, in the classifieds, from 149 00:09:08,010 --> 00:09:12,270 Speaker 1: a man seeking a wife. I got to pause here, man, because. 150 00:09:11,870 --> 00:09:14,980 Speaker 2: This is how you put it out in the paper. 151 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: This used to happen. 152 00:09:16,340 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: This happened. I guess that track often it. 153 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: Was it was more normalized. Can we learn a little 154 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: bit more about this guy? 155 00:09:23,490 --> 00:09:25,990 Speaker 2: We sure can. And Ben, for my purposes, calling her 156 00:09:26,030 --> 00:09:28,130 Speaker 2: Zell is weirding me out because I just keep thinking 157 00:09:28,150 --> 00:09:29,390 Speaker 2: I need to pay a bill. So I'm going to 158 00:09:29,410 --> 00:09:32,050 Speaker 2: call her Margarita from this point forward, and then we'll 159 00:09:32,090 --> 00:09:35,550 Speaker 2: get to Mata Hari eventually. That man that you mentioned, 160 00:09:35,610 --> 00:09:40,050 Speaker 2: the man in question, was one Rudolph John McCloud. He 161 00:09:40,070 --> 00:09:43,329 Speaker 2: was a Highlander. And there could only be one, and 162 00:09:43,410 --> 00:09:47,130 Speaker 2: it was him, Rudolph John McCloud. Don't Fact check us 163 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: on that. An officer on home leave from the Dutch 164 00:09:50,740 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: East Indies where he'd been stationed for 16 years. He 165 00:09:54,220 --> 00:09:56,690 Speaker 2: was in his late 30s, around 38 or 39. And 166 00:09:57,490 --> 00:10:00,740 Speaker 2: the personals ad, okay, it's a personal ad. It's not 167 00:10:01,500 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: as weird as we may have made it seem. At 168 00:10:03,940 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: the end of the day, we're all seeking companionship that 169 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,140 Speaker 2: may or may not lead to becoming a spouse, right? 170 00:10:09,179 --> 00:10:11,540 Speaker 1: No, that's a good point. You're right. You're right. And 171 00:10:11,700 --> 00:10:14,290 Speaker 1: he's been on the road for quite some time. Like 172 00:10:14,330 --> 00:10:17,540 Speaker 1: you said, he's a military man. He served his time 173 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: for 16 years in the Dutch East Indies. At this point, 174 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,059 Speaker 1: John is about 38 or 39 years old. And he 175 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,590 Speaker 1: would later claim that this personal ad was a prank 176 00:10:30,970 --> 00:10:34,010 Speaker 1: by one of his buddies. Well, we certainly know that 177 00:10:34,070 --> 00:10:37,150 Speaker 1: the personal ad prank is a classic. Sure. 178 00:10:37,410 --> 00:10:37,630 Speaker 2: Yeah. 179 00:10:37,690 --> 00:10:39,030 Speaker 1: It's up there with the whoopee cushion. 180 00:10:39,650 --> 00:10:41,250 Speaker 2: Or the prank phone call. Right. 181 00:10:41,309 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. Or swatting someone's home. So the exact same thing. 182 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:51,090 Speaker 1: No one fact check us. So these folks just, you know, 183 00:10:51,130 --> 00:10:56,450 Speaker 1: whatever the providence of this ad could be, Manohari and 184 00:10:56,929 --> 00:11:00,890 Speaker 1: John get connected and they do decide to get married. 185 00:11:00,970 --> 00:11:05,270 Speaker 1: So they move out to Indonesia and they live in 186 00:11:05,309 --> 00:11:09,890 Speaker 1: this opulent house. They've got servants, but they're still struggling 187 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: with money. They're feeling very isolated. They fight all the time. 188 00:11:15,059 --> 00:11:17,780 Speaker 1: In between fighting, they have two children. 189 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,430 Speaker 2: Yeah, had to get it in somewhere. They had two children, 190 00:11:21,530 --> 00:11:26,250 Speaker 2: Norman John McCloud and Louise Jean McCloud. It's very creative. 191 00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:30,330 Speaker 2: But in the summer of 1899, we've got further unfortunate 192 00:11:30,390 --> 00:11:34,339 Speaker 2: events that transpire. The children die. sadly became ill under 193 00:11:34,540 --> 00:11:39,469 Speaker 2: suspicious circumstances. Norman John passed away at the age of two, 194 00:11:39,910 --> 00:11:43,250 Speaker 2: and Louise Jean, who was just a baby, barely survived 195 00:11:43,670 --> 00:11:46,330 Speaker 2: the same malady. The story is to be believed the 196 00:11:46,370 --> 00:11:50,670 Speaker 2: children were poisoned by a disgruntled nanny or staff member. 197 00:11:51,250 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: Yes, and there's also the possibility that these unfortunate children 198 00:11:56,740 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: were sick from syphilis treatments, and syphilis may have been 199 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: Some historians speculate that syphilis was passed on to them 200 00:12:07,510 --> 00:12:10,290 Speaker 1: via Zell herself, via Mata Hari. 201 00:12:10,670 --> 00:12:12,770 Speaker 2: And that would have happened if she, in fact, likely 202 00:12:12,809 --> 00:12:15,030 Speaker 2: would have happened if she was afflicted with that. 203 00:12:15,730 --> 00:12:18,850 Speaker 1: And a year after, a year and a half after 204 00:12:18,929 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: they moved to Indonesia, the family says, forget this. We're 205 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,500 Speaker 1: going back to the Netherlands. So we're going to hop 206 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 1: on a boat. We're going to sail back to Europe. 207 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:33,710 Speaker 1: And as Not as soon as they return, but very 208 00:12:33,809 --> 00:12:37,230 Speaker 1: shortly after they make it back to the Netherlands, they 209 00:12:37,250 --> 00:12:38,030 Speaker 1: get a divorce. 210 00:12:38,630 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 2: That's right. And Margareta is given custody of Louise Jean, 211 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: referred to as Nan or Nonny, which I think is cute. 212 00:12:46,980 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: But McCloud refused to pay her any kind of child 213 00:12:49,900 --> 00:12:53,660 Speaker 2: support or alimony. Without any money, Margareta had to give 214 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,260 Speaker 2: her child up. She ends up unhoused at the age 215 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:02,030 Speaker 2: of 26. Um, and apparently her lawyer, she has a 216 00:13:02,030 --> 00:13:04,950 Speaker 2: lawyer still can't do anything because it is impossible to 217 00:13:05,010 --> 00:13:08,010 Speaker 2: seize the pension of someone who has served in the 218 00:13:08,050 --> 00:13:11,570 Speaker 2: Dutch East Indies. Is this like the, the, this is the, uh, 219 00:13:12,290 --> 00:13:15,610 Speaker 2: Dutch East India trading company or bad guys. They're the 220 00:13:15,630 --> 00:13:19,980 Speaker 2: real bad guys, like super duper political machine, like controlling 221 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 2: world events, you know, uh, iron fists of capitalism. Yes. 222 00:13:25,020 --> 00:13:33,330 Speaker 1: Colonialism, very powerful. state-sponsored corporate entities in play. And Mata Hari, Marguerite, 223 00:13:33,929 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 1: is begging for custody of her daughter. And then she 224 00:13:37,540 --> 00:13:41,699 Speaker 1: also threatens. When a carrot doesn't work, a stick will do. 225 00:13:41,820 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: She says, look, if you don't give me custody of Nani, 226 00:13:45,980 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: then I will have to pursue a less decent lifestyle. 227 00:13:51,179 --> 00:13:53,740 Speaker 1: And they're pushing me toward it. You all are pushing 228 00:13:53,780 --> 00:13:57,690 Speaker 1: me toward it if you don't help me financially. That 229 00:13:58,010 --> 00:14:03,050 Speaker 1: less decent lifestyle can mean any number of things. We 230 00:14:03,090 --> 00:14:07,590 Speaker 1: know in 1903, she relocates to Paris, France, and we 231 00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:12,770 Speaker 1: want to thank the journalist Julie Wheelwright, writing for The Guardian, 232 00:14:12,970 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: who supplies us the following quotation. She, Mata Hari, tried 233 00:14:19,170 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: every means to earn money respectably, giving piano lessons, teaching German, 234 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: applying to work as a ladies' companion and as a 235 00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:33,380 Speaker 1: model at a department store. Less respectable, but more lucrative, 236 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,170 Speaker 1: was sitting as an artist model for Montmartre painters such 237 00:14:38,270 --> 00:14:44,750 Speaker 1: as Edouard Besson, Octave-Denis-Victor Guionet, and Fernand Corbon, where she 238 00:14:44,810 --> 00:14:49,510 Speaker 1: made important theatrical contacts. So what they're saying here, Noel, 239 00:14:49,790 --> 00:14:53,750 Speaker 1: is that she might have been a nude model. 240 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,010 Speaker 2: Okay. Okay, well, you know, it ain't bad work if 241 00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:58,820 Speaker 2: you can get it. Yeah. 242 00:14:58,980 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: We also know that after this, she returned for a 243 00:15:02,980 --> 00:15:08,790 Speaker 1: time to Holland and then again returned to Paris in 1904. 244 00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:12,790 Speaker 1: This is where we see the emergence of her alter ego, 245 00:15:13,290 --> 00:15:14,130 Speaker 1: Mata Hari. 246 00:15:21,070 --> 00:15:24,930 Speaker 2: That's right. She used her experience in Indonesia to create 247 00:15:24,990 --> 00:15:28,860 Speaker 2: this persona. Again, to your point earlier, Ben, kind of 248 00:15:30,420 --> 00:15:33,940 Speaker 2: trading on that exoticism and mysticism that she knew would 249 00:15:33,980 --> 00:15:37,780 Speaker 2: get folks talking because it was kind of, I don't know, 250 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,410 Speaker 2: in vogue, I guess, right? Mm-hmm. 251 00:15:40,890 --> 00:15:43,630 Speaker 1: Yeah, to have the mysteries of the East. 252 00:15:43,750 --> 00:15:46,130 Speaker 2: Of the Far East, yes. I mean, and, you know, 253 00:15:46,150 --> 00:15:49,220 Speaker 2: of course, there's a certain amount of dismissiveness and racism 254 00:15:49,250 --> 00:15:51,460 Speaker 2: involved in that, but at the very least, it was 255 00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:55,500 Speaker 2: a fascination. So you could kind of capitalize on it 256 00:15:55,620 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: to a certain extent, even if you weren't actually of 257 00:15:59,120 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 2: Asian descent. 258 00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:04,150 Speaker 1: Absolutely, right. And this is arguably what could be called 259 00:16:04,290 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: yellow face. So Margarita is... understandable here we can empathize 260 00:16:10,380 --> 00:16:14,220 Speaker 1: with this she's doing anything she can to get enough 261 00:16:14,420 --> 00:16:18,380 Speaker 1: money to have custody of her daughter nani so she 262 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,180 Speaker 1: starts dancing professionally in paris in the early 1900s 1905 263 00:16:23,180 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: or so uh and she like we're saying she's all 264 00:16:27,380 --> 00:16:30,970 Speaker 1: about branding what uh what persona do we present to 265 00:16:31,010 --> 00:16:35,270 Speaker 1: the world that's where she starts calling herself matahari which 266 00:16:35,390 --> 00:16:40,130 Speaker 1: is an expression in malay for The Sun. It transliterates 267 00:16:40,190 --> 00:16:44,180 Speaker 1: in English to Eye of the Day. And as far as, 268 00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: not speaking for ourselves, as far as the audience of 269 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,900 Speaker 1: the time found her, they loved it. They thought she 270 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:52,740 Speaker 1: was awesome. 271 00:16:53,250 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 2: Indeed, she was tall, quite attractive, you know, surface level 272 00:16:58,980 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 2: acquainted with East Indian traditions and dances and all of 273 00:17:02,660 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: that stuff. Again, this is all kind of offensive, but 274 00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 2: what are you going to do? She was doing her best, 275 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,869 Speaker 2: willing to appear virtually nude in public. Mata Hari was 276 00:17:10,950 --> 00:17:13,570 Speaker 2: an instant smash in Paris, which has always been a 277 00:17:13,590 --> 00:17:16,490 Speaker 2: bit of a baldy town, as well as other larger, 278 00:17:16,550 --> 00:17:17,649 Speaker 2: more metropolitan areas. 279 00:17:18,350 --> 00:17:18,669 Speaker 3: Yeah. 280 00:17:19,030 --> 00:17:22,350 Speaker 1: And she was also, again, very good at the PR side. 281 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:28,980 Speaker 1: So she never explained her actual provenance or life story. Instead, 282 00:17:29,090 --> 00:17:32,530 Speaker 1: she let rumors swirl around, and she fed the fire 283 00:17:32,930 --> 00:17:37,330 Speaker 1: with innuendo, right, and ellipses. So people were asking, is 284 00:17:37,390 --> 00:17:41,929 Speaker 1: Mata Hari a Javanese princess? Has she been trained in 285 00:17:41,970 --> 00:17:46,950 Speaker 1: the art of sacred Indian dance from childhood? We don't know, 286 00:17:47,650 --> 00:17:49,730 Speaker 1: but we'd love to get tickets for the show. 287 00:17:50,510 --> 00:17:54,470 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm, we sure would. Soon she started to kind of 288 00:17:54,570 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: make her way on a bit of a tour to 289 00:17:58,180 --> 00:18:01,860 Speaker 2: all of the famous opera houses and theaters in all 290 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 2: of Europe. It is then when she begins to kick 291 00:18:05,540 --> 00:18:10,110 Speaker 2: off quite a the successful career as a stage performer. Again, 292 00:18:10,130 --> 00:18:13,300 Speaker 2: we're talking respectable joints. You wouldn't have called them that, 293 00:18:13,340 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 2: I suppose. But places like La Scala in Milan or 294 00:18:17,180 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 2: the Olympia in Paris or the Opera of Monte Carlo. 295 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: I mean, this is definitely making some waves with the 296 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 2: upper crust. 297 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:31,379 Speaker 1: A hundred percent. And it's not just the action of 298 00:18:31,420 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: the dancing. There is a big spectacle here. She has 299 00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:39,219 Speaker 1: this extravagant hairdress style. She's got a ton of exotic jewelry. 300 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: And we'll say it honestly, she's a bit out there 301 00:18:45,530 --> 00:18:50,070 Speaker 1: with the translucent veils. You know, there's an aspect of 302 00:18:50,170 --> 00:18:55,330 Speaker 1: burlesque around her performance. And at this point, she is 303 00:18:55,510 --> 00:19:01,830 Speaker 1: receiving 10,000 francs for a show. If we could inflation calculate. 304 00:19:01,850 --> 00:19:02,510 Speaker 2: A boot. 305 00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: That is around 37 000 euros now which uh full 306 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,100 Speaker 1: disclosure folks is uh more than noel and max and 307 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,939 Speaker 1: yours truly have ever made for a live show so 308 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,929 Speaker 1: maybe we just need like more veils you know what i. 309 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,129 Speaker 2: Mean i think i'm down with it well yeah speaking 310 00:19:25,170 --> 00:19:27,909 Speaker 2: of The sexy dances. You know the dance of the 311 00:19:27,990 --> 00:19:31,730 Speaker 2: seven veils that Salome did? Yeah. Yeah, it just reminds 312 00:19:31,770 --> 00:19:34,150 Speaker 2: me of that. But what year– were we talking here? 313 00:19:34,170 --> 00:19:36,050 Speaker 2: I lost track of the chronology. 314 00:19:36,850 --> 00:19:40,469 Speaker 1: So now we're a little bit past 1905. Okay. 315 00:19:40,750 --> 00:19:43,190 Speaker 2: That's interesting. I thought I was going to bring this up. 316 00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:47,550 Speaker 2: That's why I wanted to confirm. This exoticism was not 317 00:19:47,609 --> 00:19:50,649 Speaker 2: only happening in Europe. It was massively popular. in New 318 00:19:50,690 --> 00:19:53,210 Speaker 2: York City. I recently was in New York, and I 319 00:19:53,250 --> 00:19:56,990 Speaker 2: went to this really awesome cocktail bar called The Opera House. 320 00:19:57,580 --> 00:20:00,380 Speaker 2: And it is in the lower level of another really 321 00:20:00,420 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 2: cool cocktail bar slash restaurant called Chinese Tuxedo. in New 322 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,660 Speaker 2: York's Chinatown. And from 1893 to 1911, this was New 323 00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:13,179 Speaker 2: York's first Chinese theater. And it was like Chinese opera. 324 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 2: And they actually, if you go to this place, they're 325 00:20:15,460 --> 00:20:19,380 Speaker 2: playing Chinese opera music. And it's fascinating stuff. I'd never 326 00:20:19,420 --> 00:20:22,370 Speaker 2: really heard anything quite like it before. And I swear, dude, 327 00:20:22,590 --> 00:20:24,250 Speaker 2: when we walked into this place, it was kind of 328 00:20:24,270 --> 00:20:26,650 Speaker 2: a random one of those nights. I was like, does 329 00:20:26,690 --> 00:20:29,070 Speaker 2: this not feel like that scene at the beginning of 330 00:20:29,130 --> 00:20:31,970 Speaker 2: Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and or like 331 00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:35,340 Speaker 2: a place that would have been run by the Chinese mob? 100% 332 00:20:35,340 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 2: was the case. Red curtains everywhere. 333 00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: Triad field. 334 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:38,980 Speaker 2: Oh, dude. 335 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:40,139 Speaker 1: Dark wood furniture. 336 00:20:40,420 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: They said there were actually secret tunnels in the walls 337 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,739 Speaker 2: where they would smuggle criminals out and things like that. 338 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,740 Speaker 2: It was a fascinating place. And our server was really 339 00:20:50,790 --> 00:20:53,030 Speaker 2: knowledgeable about the whole history of the place. So just 340 00:20:53,070 --> 00:20:54,770 Speaker 2: wanted to shoot that out to you. It's on Doyer 341 00:20:54,790 --> 00:20:59,429 Speaker 2: Street in the Lower East Side Chinatown in Manhattan. Phenomenal. 342 00:20:59,630 --> 00:21:01,090 Speaker 1: Yeah, check it out. 343 00:21:01,150 --> 00:21:02,889 Speaker 2: It would have been right along the side of what 344 00:21:02,930 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 2: was going on in our story. Absolutely. 345 00:21:05,460 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: And it's quite possible. When did you say that was constructed? 346 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,340 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know when it was constructed, but it 347 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 2: operated from 1893 to 1911. 348 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,890 Speaker 1: So it is completely possible then at this point. 349 00:21:17,910 --> 00:21:18,790 Speaker 2: She might have made her way there. 350 00:21:19,710 --> 00:21:24,110 Speaker 1: That they were at least using Mata Hari branded merchandise 351 00:21:24,270 --> 00:21:29,110 Speaker 1: because she got super into merchandise. Well, companies used her 352 00:21:29,310 --> 00:21:33,270 Speaker 1: image if they didn't compensate her. They used her name 353 00:21:33,369 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: for cigarettes, liqueurs, other products of vice. So if we 354 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: go to 1907, Mata Hari is a millionaire for a time, 355 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: but she keeps spending the money, at least according to 356 00:21:46,859 --> 00:21:48,010 Speaker 1: her biographers. 357 00:21:48,619 --> 00:21:52,230 Speaker 2: Spending it as quickly as it comes in. She became 358 00:21:52,290 --> 00:21:54,790 Speaker 2: a bit of a socialite as well and would make 359 00:21:54,850 --> 00:21:57,530 Speaker 2: regular appearances in magazines. I mean, she was a star, 360 00:21:58,310 --> 00:22:03,350 Speaker 2: including publications like Vogue. So wherever she was, she was 361 00:22:03,390 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 2: always followed around by like, I don't know, I'm just 362 00:22:06,619 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 2: going to call it a harem of dudes. 363 00:22:09,420 --> 00:22:14,820 Speaker 1: An entourage, right, of quarters. And she's known for holding audiences. 364 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: She wants to flirt publicly. She wants the suitors to 365 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: line up for her. She also starts to develop what 366 00:22:23,140 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: the media at the time sees as a type. She 367 00:22:25,940 --> 00:22:30,430 Speaker 1: likes high-ranking military officers. She likes aristocrats. 368 00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:32,020 Speaker 2: Love a man in uniform. 369 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: She loves a man in uniform. And despite the fact 370 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:39,310 Speaker 1: that she's making a lot of money dancing, she's relying 371 00:22:39,550 --> 00:22:43,530 Speaker 1: on her suitors to support her from 1908 to 1912. 372 00:22:43,530 --> 00:22:49,510 Speaker 1: A few years after 1912, there's a funny thing that 373 00:22:49,530 --> 00:22:50,310 Speaker 1: happens in Europe. 374 00:22:51,170 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, a funny thing happened indeed. A little old skirmish. 375 00:22:55,859 --> 00:22:58,220 Speaker 2: What do they call it? A little dalliance called World 376 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 2: War I. That's the one. When Germany declared war on 377 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,740 Speaker 2: France on August 3rd of 1914, yeah, the show would 378 00:23:06,780 --> 00:23:07,979 Speaker 2: not go on, it turns out. 379 00:23:08,580 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, no more performances for the world-famous Mata Hari, which 380 00:23:13,820 --> 00:23:19,350 Speaker 1: means no more life of luxury for our protagonist. She 381 00:23:19,410 --> 00:23:23,949 Speaker 1: is in Berlin when Germany declares war, and the bank 382 00:23:24,369 --> 00:23:28,750 Speaker 1: freezes all of her assets, so she starts leaning more 383 00:23:28,930 --> 00:23:34,430 Speaker 1: ardently on her various quarters and lovers to support her lifestyle. 384 00:23:34,930 --> 00:23:38,709 Speaker 1: Stuff is not looking great, but there is a silver 385 00:23:38,770 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: lining because amid this chaos, the nation of the Netherlands 386 00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: stays neutral, which means that Mata Hari is allowed to 387 00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: travel throughout Europe in a way that a lot of 388 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:51,340 Speaker 1: people cannot. 389 00:23:51,740 --> 00:23:53,820 Speaker 2: And that would be where the Hague was, where they 390 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,050 Speaker 2: would try war criminals because of that neutral stance. It's also. 391 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,780 Speaker 1: got to be tough at the borders right when you're 392 00:24:01,820 --> 00:24:05,980 Speaker 1: traveling and it's it's very much a papers please kind 393 00:24:06,020 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: of situation and the thing is she can't really be 394 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,350 Speaker 1: inconspicuous at this point she's kind of like a kardashian 395 00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:16,750 Speaker 1: level of uh pop culture. 396 00:24:16,490 --> 00:24:19,470 Speaker 3: Cover of vogue man i mean she's huge yeah so 397 00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:22,650 Speaker 3: wherever she goes people are looking at her even when 398 00:24:22,670 --> 00:24:25,730 Speaker 3: she's not in costume they're like oh hey I think 399 00:24:25,790 --> 00:24:28,050 Speaker 3: I know that tall lady from the cover of Vogue. 400 00:24:28,270 --> 00:24:29,909 Speaker 2: You know, that's a good point, Ben. I mean, she 401 00:24:29,930 --> 00:24:33,270 Speaker 2: definitely was sort of statuesque and had a cut a 402 00:24:33,290 --> 00:24:36,129 Speaker 2: certain figure, but you would think she might, since she 403 00:24:36,150 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 2: was so costume-oriented, be able to disguise herself a little 404 00:24:40,619 --> 00:24:41,020 Speaker 2: bit better. 405 00:24:41,390 --> 00:24:45,180 Speaker 1: Ooh, that's a great point, Noel. We also know that 406 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: intelligence agencies from several countries were watching her every move. 407 00:24:51,540 --> 00:24:54,450 Speaker 1: They were studying her progress, Because she was one of 408 00:24:54,490 --> 00:24:59,470 Speaker 1: the few people that could traverse international borders easily. This 409 00:24:59,550 --> 00:25:02,850 Speaker 1: is where we get to, like you mentioned, The Hague. 410 00:25:03,210 --> 00:25:06,429 Speaker 1: She was living in The Hague in May 1916. The 411 00:25:06,450 --> 00:25:09,060 Speaker 1: Hague is a place. It's not just a building. We 412 00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:13,500 Speaker 1: know it's a confusing name. While she's living there, a 413 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: consul from Germany, a diplomatic figure, reputedly visits her and says, Hey, 414 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,619 Speaker 1: baby duck, I hear you're going back to Paris. 415 00:25:23,180 --> 00:25:25,740 Speaker 2: Right, and this man knew for a fact that she 416 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:27,780 Speaker 2: was planning to travel back to Paris, and he told 417 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,909 Speaker 2: her that he wanted to do a little job for him. 418 00:25:30,570 --> 00:25:33,070 Speaker 2: He wanted to recruit her as a spy, and during 419 00:25:33,130 --> 00:25:35,889 Speaker 2: her time there, do a little bit of spying. For 420 00:25:35,930 --> 00:25:38,669 Speaker 2: the job, he offered her 20,000 francs, or about 50,000 421 00:25:38,670 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 2: euros with today's money. She accepted the offer, though it's 422 00:25:42,940 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 2: unclear if she actually planned on doing the requested spying. 423 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 2: She was just like, yeah, just put it right in 424 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: my fist. Yeah, just leave it. Leave the money there. 425 00:25:53,020 --> 00:25:55,780 Speaker 1: And it was nice to meet you. You know, guten tag. 426 00:26:02,700 --> 00:26:06,369 Speaker 1: So once she does go back to Paris, the German 427 00:26:06,410 --> 00:26:10,790 Speaker 1: intel is correct. And when she gets there, maybe. folks, 428 00:26:10,910 --> 00:26:14,220 Speaker 1: may be fueled off this new infusion of cash. 429 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:15,100 Speaker 2: Fistful of cash. 430 00:26:15,260 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: Right, right, right. How much more shady can one be? 431 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,790 Speaker 1: Bag of loose diamonds, by the way. That's the answer. 432 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:26,189 Speaker 1: She gets this glamorous, high-profile lifestyle again. She meets up 433 00:26:26,230 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: with various paramours. But she also has an appointment with 434 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:33,780 Speaker 1: French intelligence agents. 435 00:26:34,310 --> 00:26:36,610 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they were there waiting for her. They monitor 436 00:26:36,630 --> 00:26:39,270 Speaker 2: her super closely, hoping to catch her in the act 437 00:26:39,330 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 2: in pro-German activities. In Paris, she came up with a 438 00:26:43,390 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 2: plan to make a trip to a luxurious spa near 439 00:26:47,660 --> 00:26:51,230 Speaker 2: the front lines of the war called Vittel. Um, she 440 00:26:51,310 --> 00:26:55,230 Speaker 2: at this point had fallen for a dashing young Russian captain. 441 00:26:55,270 --> 00:26:56,230 Speaker 1: Allegedly fallen. 442 00:26:56,270 --> 00:26:56,810 Speaker 3: Allegedly. 443 00:26:56,850 --> 00:27:00,149 Speaker 2: That's right. And at the spa, she was able to, uh, 444 00:27:00,330 --> 00:27:01,949 Speaker 2: set up a meeting with him or that was where 445 00:27:01,970 --> 00:27:04,300 Speaker 2: they were going to have a little rendezvous under the 446 00:27:04,380 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 2: guise of, uh, her failing health. Yeah. 447 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,340 Speaker 1: Oh, I feel so poorly. I must take a constitutional 448 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: in the tail. It's simply the only place, uh, that 449 00:27:17,140 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: can accommodate my lifestyle. Uh, And then people were naturally asking, hey, 450 00:27:22,780 --> 00:27:26,140 Speaker 1: you know, Vettel is in the military zone, right? So 451 00:27:26,220 --> 00:27:27,980 Speaker 1: you got to get some paperwork. 452 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,580 Speaker 2: For this one. And so another one of her former 453 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:35,810 Speaker 2: suitors or whatever current perhaps referred her to the immigration office. 454 00:27:35,869 --> 00:27:40,570 Speaker 2: She get the paperwork and that's at 282 Boulevard Saint-Germain. 455 00:27:40,970 --> 00:27:44,590 Speaker 2: But the headquarters of the French intelligence services were in 456 00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:45,570 Speaker 2: the same building. 457 00:27:45,990 --> 00:27:51,900 Speaker 1: Whoopsie doopsie. So this leads Mata Hari to find herself 458 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,550 Speaker 1: in the office of a guy named Captain Ledoux, the 459 00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:58,949 Speaker 1: head of the French intelligence service at the time. And 460 00:27:59,250 --> 00:28:04,230 Speaker 1: he has already been warned by his British peers about 461 00:28:04,290 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: this person, about Mata Hari. The warnings he got were 462 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: along the lines of, don't trust this person. Don't mistake 463 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:17,450 Speaker 1: them for a shallow celebrity. There's deep water here. And 464 00:28:17,810 --> 00:28:22,370 Speaker 1: he has been shadowing her for like a month plus. 465 00:28:23,030 --> 00:28:26,590 Speaker 1: So now all of a sudden, let us imagine Captain Ladeau, 466 00:28:27,070 --> 00:28:32,020 Speaker 1: his suspect, his quarry is thrown into his lap. Like 467 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,940 Speaker 1: you were saying, Noel, they're in the same building at 468 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: this point. And he says, I'm going to win her trust. 469 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,540 Speaker 1: I'm going to approve your paperwork. And he tries to 470 00:28:42,580 --> 00:28:46,290 Speaker 1: make friends with her, but he is convinced that that 471 00:28:46,350 --> 00:28:48,570 Speaker 1: she is spying for the Germans. 472 00:28:49,270 --> 00:28:51,670 Speaker 2: And some of this comes from a really cool article 473 00:28:51,890 --> 00:28:55,650 Speaker 2: on the website of a fascinating-sounding museum in the Netherlands 474 00:28:55,690 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 2: called the Fries Museum in Leeuwarden, Netherlands. 475 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: Yes, and thank you to the excellent researchers there. This 476 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,060 Speaker 1: captain is thinking, this is my chance to prove that 477 00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:12,230 Speaker 1: this person is spying for Germany, so I'm going to 478 00:29:12,330 --> 00:29:17,130 Speaker 1: set a trap. She comes back from Vittel, And this guy, 479 00:29:17,190 --> 00:29:21,810 Speaker 1: this captain says, you know, Mata Hari, I want to 480 00:29:21,890 --> 00:29:26,540 Speaker 1: recruit you as a French spy for the Belgium theater. 481 00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:27,900 Speaker 2: Okay. 482 00:29:28,380 --> 00:29:30,500 Speaker 1: I think you're good. I think you're famous. You can 483 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:37,100 Speaker 1: travel easily. This is a win-win. Margarita Matahari senses an opportunity, 484 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,660 Speaker 1: and she says, okay, I'll play your reindeer games for, 485 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,860 Speaker 1: dramatic pause, one million francs. 486 00:29:45,380 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 2: Ooh, that's quite a bit of a raise there, huh? 487 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, 2.5 million euros for those of us playing along 488 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:53,290 Speaker 1: at home. 489 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,370 Speaker 2: And she really needs it, too, for her dowry, I guess. 490 00:29:56,410 --> 00:29:58,250 Speaker 2: I don't think she really wants to marry that dashing 491 00:29:58,350 --> 00:29:58,990 Speaker 2: Russian captain. 492 00:30:00,110 --> 00:30:05,150 Speaker 1: Yeah. And this French intelligence officer says, look, go to 493 00:30:05,190 --> 00:30:09,090 Speaker 1: the Netherlands. You'll get further instruction there and we will 494 00:30:09,130 --> 00:30:14,020 Speaker 1: pay you after you complete your mission. So she sets off. 495 00:30:14,390 --> 00:30:18,700 Speaker 1: And this is where the story gets really murky. Like 496 00:30:18,740 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: we hear different angles about it. 497 00:30:20,620 --> 00:30:23,090 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it definitely bifurcates a bit in terms of 498 00:30:23,130 --> 00:30:25,730 Speaker 2: the telling, and one version of it is that she 499 00:30:26,430 --> 00:30:29,230 Speaker 2: agreed to spy for both sides, and that she was 500 00:30:29,270 --> 00:30:32,010 Speaker 2: a double agent, playing both sides against each other with 501 00:30:32,090 --> 00:30:33,870 Speaker 2: neither knowing that she'd been recruited by the other. 502 00:30:34,310 --> 00:30:37,490 Speaker 1: Yeah, and, you know, it's tough to prove. 503 00:30:37,530 --> 00:30:38,630 Speaker 2: Which is badass, if you ask me. 504 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's tough to prove some of this stuff, too, 505 00:30:41,620 --> 00:30:44,780 Speaker 1: because of the nature of that skullduggery, but we do 506 00:30:44,820 --> 00:30:51,090 Speaker 1: know for sure on February 13th, 1917... French authorities did 507 00:30:51,130 --> 00:30:54,410 Speaker 1: arrest her in Paris, and they arrested her on charges 508 00:30:54,610 --> 00:30:57,820 Speaker 1: of spying for Germany. So this is Captain Ladeau's trap. 509 00:30:58,230 --> 00:31:03,500 Speaker 2: Prosecutors claimed that Mata Hari's espionage contributed to the deaths 510 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:09,820 Speaker 2: of more than 50,000 French soldiers. This is treasonous stuff. However, 511 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 2: to your point, Ben, very little evidence to support the claim. However, 512 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 2: in July 1917, she was tried by a military court 513 00:31:17,660 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 2: and convicted of espionage. and sentenced to death. 514 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: So we'll forward here after sentencing to October 15th, 1917. 515 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,030 Speaker 1: This time of year, it's autumnal, it's cold in Paris, 516 00:31:33,330 --> 00:31:37,030 Speaker 1: and most of the population is still sleeping in when 517 00:31:37,170 --> 00:31:41,550 Speaker 1: Marguerite is taken from death row to a firing range. 518 00:31:42,050 --> 00:31:45,460 Speaker 1: And at the execution site, the firing squad is already there, 519 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,980 Speaker 1: they're loaded up, they're ready to carry out the sentence. 520 00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: And Margarita legendarily says, you don't have to tie my hands. 521 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,630 Speaker 1: You don't have to blindfold me. This is where we 522 00:31:58,650 --> 00:32:02,230 Speaker 1: get the report from some eyewitnesses who said she blew 523 00:32:02,310 --> 00:32:06,870 Speaker 1: a kiss to the crowd one last time before they 524 00:32:06,930 --> 00:32:11,340 Speaker 1: opened fire. And so at this time, the firing squads 525 00:32:11,540 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: are pretty active. It's not abnormal to hear gunshots in 526 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,229 Speaker 1: the morning like this. And just after sunrise, Mata Hari 527 00:32:21,110 --> 00:32:24,170 Speaker 1: is dead by a firing squad. She is just 41 528 00:32:24,170 --> 00:32:24,650 Speaker 1: years old. 529 00:32:25,210 --> 00:32:28,250 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean, she really was kind of a heel, 530 00:32:28,490 --> 00:32:35,130 Speaker 2: you know, in the region. European newspapers are applauding her demise, 531 00:32:35,860 --> 00:32:39,719 Speaker 2: referring to the situation as an unmasking, referring to her 532 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 2: as a consciousness spy, and that she deserved what she got. 533 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,670 Speaker 2: All the while, the French state is actually auctioning off 534 00:32:47,780 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 2: all of her seized possessions to pay for the cost 535 00:32:51,060 --> 00:32:51,860 Speaker 2: of the trial. 536 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,300 Speaker 1: That's correct. Yeah, the body, they say, is going to 537 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: be donated to a teaching hospital. And all of a sudden, 538 00:33:01,780 --> 00:33:05,180 Speaker 1: you know, we see this now with the strange wave 539 00:33:05,260 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: of loving and hating celebrities. All of a sudden, Europe, 540 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: which once loved Mata Hari, turns against her and says 541 00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:18,290 Speaker 1: terrible things about this person. We also have to mention, 542 00:33:18,570 --> 00:33:22,150 Speaker 1: as we're closing up here, that there is a huge 543 00:33:22,210 --> 00:33:27,170 Speaker 1: possibility that Mata Hari was herself a scapegoat, right? Because 544 00:33:27,230 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: we said there are serious questions about how much spying 545 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,060 Speaker 1: she actually did. We know that the French military had 546 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,300 Speaker 1: very low morale in 1917. There were mutinies in the 547 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:38,580 Speaker 1: armed forces. 548 00:33:41,230 --> 00:33:42,980 Speaker 2: Needed a win. Yeah. 549 00:33:43,380 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: People needed a win. They were looking for someone to blame, 550 00:33:46,780 --> 00:33:50,180 Speaker 1: a face that they could put to their problems, someone 551 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:50,420 Speaker 1: to punish. 552 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,980 Speaker 2: Well, and people also love a fall from grace story too, 553 00:33:53,020 --> 00:33:55,030 Speaker 2: don't they? Exactly. Yeah. 554 00:33:55,410 --> 00:33:59,070 Speaker 1: So now we've got all the ingredients for Mata Hari 555 00:33:59,190 --> 00:34:02,690 Speaker 1: to be a perfect scapegoat. She's not from France. 556 00:34:03,550 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 2: She's a foreigner. She's a foreigner. 557 00:34:06,010 --> 00:34:10,629 Speaker 1: And she has a reputation for being seductive. So she's 558 00:34:10,730 --> 00:34:13,509 Speaker 1: someone that is easy for the public to hate. 559 00:34:13,950 --> 00:34:18,190 Speaker 2: In the subsequent years, a lot more research was done 560 00:34:18,290 --> 00:34:22,150 Speaker 2: into the situation. Numerous books and film adaptations of her 561 00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:25,430 Speaker 2: life came out. And as more and more research was done, 562 00:34:25,450 --> 00:34:28,989 Speaker 2: it became clear. pretty clear that she got a bum rap. 563 00:34:29,630 --> 00:34:34,810 Speaker 2: The German government did eventually exonerate her after posthumously, obviously. 564 00:34:34,830 --> 00:34:36,980 Speaker 2: Doesn't really do too much good, but I get it. 565 00:34:37,390 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: I guess it helped with her legacy in 1930. And 566 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,220 Speaker 2: the French dossier that collected all of her supposed spying 567 00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:50,370 Speaker 2: activities apparently contained information that indicated that she was, in fact, innocent. 568 00:34:50,860 --> 00:34:54,109 Speaker 1: Yeah, and history is so much closer than it looks 569 00:34:54,190 --> 00:34:57,250 Speaker 1: in the rearview mirror, folks. We can tell you that 570 00:34:57,730 --> 00:35:02,430 Speaker 1: as recently as 2017, France was following up on Mata Hari. 571 00:35:02,750 --> 00:35:07,379 Speaker 1: They released various documents relating to the case, and these 572 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,100 Speaker 1: documents led a lot of historians to believe that this 573 00:35:11,180 --> 00:35:14,779 Speaker 1: woman had been a scapegoat of French officials who were 574 00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:18,959 Speaker 1: looking for someone to blame, some kind of a societal 575 00:35:19,140 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: escape hatch, right? A vent for people to get their 576 00:35:22,219 --> 00:35:26,500 Speaker 1: frustrations out. And in addition, there were a lot of 577 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: people speculating that Mata Hari's disregard for the norms of 578 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,570 Speaker 1: the day and the taboos of the day played a 579 00:35:34,620 --> 00:35:39,569 Speaker 1: huge role in her arrest, conviction, and execution. Because one 580 00:35:39,610 --> 00:35:43,610 Speaker 1: thing that is true throughout most of Western history is boy, howdy, 581 00:35:43,950 --> 00:35:45,470 Speaker 1: the patriarch hates women. 582 00:35:45,930 --> 00:35:50,180 Speaker 2: You got that right, Ben. And I think we've shown 583 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,450 Speaker 2: that in plenty of episodes of this show right here. 584 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,469 Speaker 2: But huge thanks to our research associate, Natalia, for her 585 00:35:56,510 --> 00:35:59,069 Speaker 2: very first research brief and a subject that I was 586 00:35:59,489 --> 00:36:01,890 Speaker 2: woefully underschooled on. Agreed. 587 00:36:01,969 --> 00:36:05,370 Speaker 1: Thank you, Natalia, and can't wait to explore more of 588 00:36:05,390 --> 00:36:07,630 Speaker 1: your work in the future. Big, big thanks to our 589 00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:12,790 Speaker 1: super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Big thanks as well to A.J. 590 00:36:12,830 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: Bahamas Jacobs, a.k.a. The Puzzler, and a tepid We know 591 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,280 Speaker 1: what you did to Jonathan Strickland, a.k.a. 592 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,100 Speaker 2: The Quister. I know what you did last summer, Jonathan. 593 00:36:23,660 --> 00:36:27,720 Speaker 2: It was bad. And also, gosh, Alex Williams, who composed 594 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 2: our theme. Rachel Big Spinish Lance, the doctor herself of 595 00:36:31,060 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 2: underwater big booms. 596 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,089 Speaker 1: Christopher Asiotis, Eve's Jeffcoat, here in spirit. And Noel, big 597 00:36:37,130 --> 00:36:37,629 Speaker 1: thanks to you. 598 00:36:38,390 --> 00:36:40,209 Speaker 2: You as well, man. We'll see you next time, folks. 599 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,150 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 600 00:36:50,290 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.