Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast, New listeners, old listeners. Wherever
Speaker 1: you are in the world, it is so great to
Speaker 1: have you here. Back for another episode as we break
Speaker 1: down the psychology of our twenties. A bit of a
Speaker 1: universal truth about this decade is that nothing is set
Speaker 1: in stone.
Speaker 2: This is obviously one of the major periods in our
Speaker 2: life for exploration for change, and that includes the jobs
Speaker 2: we work and our career path. I think in the past,
Speaker 2: our careers were very much mapped out for us. Restricted
Speaker 2: we chose one career path and it kind of followed
Speaker 2: us through life. And nowadays we have a lot more
Speaker 2: freedom and capacity for change, and I think it's really
Speaker 2: valuable to discuss how we could make that scary transition
Speaker 2: from one career to another, facing things like financial uncertainty,
Speaker 2: job in security during this decade and making that decision
Speaker 2: because either we are unhappy with where we are or
Speaker 2: we're just looking for something different, something more fulfilling more us,
Speaker 2: or maybe there's been a factor beyond out control, getting
Speaker 2: fired for example, or just being burnt out. I think honestly,
Speaker 2: our twenties are the best time for this change, and
Speaker 2: it might feel really scary to start from scratch. You
Speaker 2: might not even know where to begin. But that is
Speaker 2: where our amazing guest comes in. We thought we might
Speaker 2: bring on an expert, the founder of carea Contessa, Lauren,
Speaker 2: to took us through exactly how we can kind of
Speaker 2: change careers in our twenties and be sure of our decisions. Lauren,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: Firstly, can you tell us a bit about yourself and
Speaker 2: what you do?
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, and then we'll get to the psychology of it.
Speaker 4: So my name is Laura mcgodwin. I'm the founder and
Speaker 4: CEO of career Contessa. We are the largest online professional
Speaker 4: platform for women in their careers. Anybody can use our site,
Speaker 4: but we do, you know, mostly tailor our advice and
Speaker 4: content for women and because women's careers are different, being
Speaker 4: a woman in the workplace is different. And really what
Speaker 4: we do is we help people, you know, get hired,
Speaker 4: get paid, advance at work, build these fulfilling careers and
Speaker 4: the reality and kind of where the psychology piece of
Speaker 4: this kind of probably comes into is that mindset of
Speaker 4: like there's no one career for anybody, you know, there's
Speaker 4: not like linear career paths. One plus one doesn't always
Speaker 4: equal to in your careers. And so what I set
Speaker 4: out to create was this resource that wasn't just a
Speaker 4: job site, which is what a lot of things are.
Speaker 3: They're like get the job and then we're done with you.
Speaker 4: I really wanted a career site that could build and
Speaker 4: grow with people as a navigate different transitions and shifts
Speaker 4: in their careers. So we did that at Career Contesta.
Speaker 4: We have a podcast called Career Cantesta. I have a
Speaker 4: book called Power Moves. You know, we have all all
Speaker 4: the things so that people can can continue to thrive
Speaker 4: in their workplace.
Speaker 2: I honestly love that. I wish I'd had a resource
Speaker 2: like that when I first like finished university, because the
Speaker 2: only thing I really had access to was like seek
Speaker 2: and like that was it.
Speaker 3: Like yeah, I seek in.
Speaker 2: Like the job page of like my university website. So
Speaker 2: that is like super super amazing and I think such
Speaker 2: a great resource. I also love what you said, where
Speaker 2: by one plus one doesn't always equal to when it
Speaker 2: comes to our careers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very frustrating, oh yeah.
Speaker 2: But also it's super it's really frustrating, but then it's
Speaker 2: also kind of freeing because sometimes you can equal four
Speaker 2: or like five.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly exactly me.
Speaker 2: Like I'm thinking about my own kind of path through
Speaker 2: my twenties and like their little career dips and turns
Speaker 2: that I talk. And I started this decade working hospital.
Speaker 2: Then I worked as like in a cool center. Then
Speaker 2: I worked as like an interviewer for the government that
Speaker 2: I was working as a consultant. Like now I'm here.
Speaker 2: I feel like, if that's what the first five years
Speaker 2: of my twenties has had for me, the last five
Speaker 2: years even more so.
Speaker 4: Anyhow, Yes, absolutely, I like your optimistic view on all
Speaker 4: things so far.
Speaker 3: This is great.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad. I'm so glad, and I feel, yeah,
Speaker 2: I feel like it's better to just approach things with
Speaker 2: this air of like surely this is this is all
Speaker 2: going to turn out Okay.
Speaker 4: It leads to a lot of one of my favorite
Speaker 4: quotes is it's this or something better, And it's like,
Speaker 4: you know what, because what's the alternative, You're gonna be like,
Speaker 4: it was this or my life is over. Like, you know,
Speaker 4: you don't want that either, so it's this or something better.
Speaker 4: It's kind of been my new motto.
Speaker 3: I love Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, We're gonna talk about that more on a personal
Speaker 2: level later. But one of my first questions for you
Speaker 2: is what are some of the common reasons why individuals
Speaker 2: people like us in now twenties might consider changing careers.
Speaker 4: I mean, it happens for a whole variety of reasons.
Speaker 4: It can be that you kind of fell into a career.
Speaker 4: So maybe you found a job through your career center
Speaker 4: and it wasn't something you really wanted, but it was
Speaker 4: better than nothing, and so you kind of were doing
Speaker 4: it and all of a sudden you're like, I don't
Speaker 4: want to do this the rest of my life. For example,
Speaker 4: my very first job at a college MINEU I graduated
Speaker 4: during a recession wasn't great. I was an admin assistant
Speaker 4: for a university. I didn't want to do that forever
Speaker 4: I knew I didn't, and I just sort of needed
Speaker 4: the time to. You know, obviously, bills won't pay themselves,
Speaker 4: so you sometimes will take a bridge job while you
Speaker 4: are working toward wherever you.
Speaker 3: Want to go next.
Speaker 4: Sometimes it can be that, Okay, I've started working and
Speaker 4: I have a huge interest in this other thing, and
Speaker 4: I really want to maybe keep doing my job function
Speaker 4: but in a different industry. And then you have the
Speaker 4: flip side where it's like, I want to stay in
Speaker 4: the same industry but do something totally different. I had
Speaker 4: a really good friend. We worked on the recruiting team
Speaker 4: together at Hulu, and she made in her twenties, she
Speaker 4: transitioned from the recruiting team to the marketing team. Now
Speaker 4: she has a much bigger career in marketing. It was
Speaker 4: that transition that sort of was the first stepping stone.
Speaker 4: So I think this happens a lot. I also think
Speaker 4: in your twenties, you sort of you don't know what
Speaker 4: you don't know, and so one of the beautiful things
Speaker 4: about working and just taking something getting out there is
Speaker 4: that you start to get introduced to new things and
Speaker 4: you start to follow your curiosity. And so there's so
Speaker 4: many reasons why people might consider a career pivot, whether
Speaker 4: it's I just want to do something different, or I want,
Speaker 4: you know, more salary potential. Someone who maybe decided they
Speaker 4: wanted to be a teacher and they're like, you know what,
Speaker 4: I love this career, but I can't live off of
Speaker 4: this salary, So what can I do? So like people,
Speaker 4: you know, everyone has their personal reasons it. You know,
Speaker 4: it can be I want to work remote, Okay, so
Speaker 4: what careers are going to allow you to do that forever?
Speaker 3: So I think it all comes down to.
Speaker 4: Sort of people having a little bit more clarity about
Speaker 4: what they really want or something that really matters a
Speaker 4: lot to them, and you kind of it's like you
Speaker 4: can't always figure those things out thinking about them. You know,
Speaker 4: clarity comes from engagement, not thought. It's not my quote,
Speaker 4: that's Maray Folio's. But I love it because you can't
Speaker 4: just sit there and think really hard and help that
Speaker 4: the answer comes.
Speaker 3: You do have to get out there and start doing.
Speaker 2: And I feel like it's such an exercise of like
Speaker 2: value realignment because as we go through our twenties, the
Speaker 2: values that we held when we first maybe entered the
Speaker 2: workplace and we're making career related decisions at like sixteen
Speaker 2: and seventeen, like whilst we were still in high school. Yeah,
Speaker 2: those values change. Maybe when they were eighteen years old,
Speaker 2: you really valued money and you really valued this idea
Speaker 2: of I'm going to build all this wealth in my
Speaker 2: twenties so that I can relax for the rest of
Speaker 2: my life, and you get halfway through that and you
Speaker 2: realize this is incredibly unfulfilling and like not a life
Speaker 2: that I want to leave. Like I think there are
Speaker 2: so many factors that come down to finding something that
Speaker 2: aligns to who you are as you change and as
Speaker 2: your values change as well. The other big one for me,
Speaker 2: I think about this a lot. I think our jobs
Speaker 2: are one of the biggest time consumers in our lives,
Speaker 2: probably second only to sleep, and so not being happy
Speaker 2: with what you do for a living, with what you
Speaker 2: do every day for eight hours can suck a lot
Speaker 2: of life out of everything else you do. Think it
Speaker 2: can be an incredible source of stress and tension. I
Speaker 2: used to do when I was doing working in a
Speaker 2: call center. I would do mental health reviews and interviews
Speaker 2: for the government. And it was just eight hours of
Speaker 2: asking people about the worst and harness points in their life,
Speaker 2: day in and day out, and it made me so
Speaker 2: miserable and I didn't want to go to work. I
Speaker 2: would call in sick all the time. What do you
Speaker 2: think of some of the signs that we actually really
Speaker 2: do need to contemplate a change. It's not because we
Speaker 2: want to do something that's more in line without values.
Speaker 2: It's because now we seriously need to we seriously need
Speaker 2: to make a shift.
Speaker 4: To you. Yeah, I feel like your body usually tells
Speaker 4: you it whether you want to listen or not.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: So I had this person I interviewed once and she said,
Speaker 4: your body will give you clues, and the clues get
Speaker 4: louder when you don't pay attention to them. So, you know,
Speaker 4: a toxic workplace can impact you in a whole variety
Speaker 4: of ways. But if you kind of keep going up
Speaker 4: the scale, eventually it's like you know, people can experience
Speaker 4: like autoimmune disorders and they're like where did I get this?
Speaker 4: And you're like, oh, well, you've been extremely stressed for
Speaker 4: the last two years, and like, okay, your body is
Speaker 4: responding to that.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of like little signs of
Speaker 4: people always want to know, like is it me?
Speaker 3: Is it the job? You know?
Speaker 4: One of the things I do think is important to
Speaker 4: think about is like you take yourself wherever you go.
Speaker 4: So the first thing I would do of like if
Speaker 4: you're recognizing that is like, do some some of your
Speaker 4: own works, you know, work the therapist, do some journaling exercises,
Speaker 4: like some of these things that we talk about actually
Speaker 4: do work, you know, having moments of mindfulness, disconnecting, like
Speaker 4: don't doom scroll, you know, start with some of those things,
Speaker 4: because those are the things you can control.
Speaker 3: Maybe.
Speaker 4: Also, the other thing I find for people is like
Speaker 4: sometimes they can't quite identify what it is that about work.
Speaker 4: You know, yours is obviously very obvious. Sometimes you're lucky
Speaker 4: and it is really obvious, and other times it's like
Speaker 4: you're being gaslighted by a boss who you don't quite
Speaker 4: understand that behavior. So education can help a lot with
Speaker 4: that too, sort of educating yourself about toxic workplaces, manipulative bosses,
Speaker 4: you know, and start to kind of recognize those things
Speaker 4: because sometimes there's things that you can control, but we
Speaker 4: can't always control other people's actions.
Speaker 3: The other thing.
Speaker 4: About boundaries I always think about is like when you
Speaker 4: think of a boundary, you're like, no emails after five pm,
Speaker 4: and you're almost like you're expecting your boss to not
Speaker 4: do that, But really the boundary is something that you
Speaker 4: set more for yourself, almost like a limit your setting
Speaker 4: for yourself. So it's like, no, I'm not going to
Speaker 4: respond to emails after five pm. I can't control that
Speaker 4: they send the emails after five pm, but that's what
Speaker 4: I'm going to do. So those are all kind of
Speaker 4: little tips I would say to things to start with.
Speaker 4: If you're doing all those things and or you just
Speaker 4: know this is not what I want to do, I'm
Speaker 4: so unhappy. I'm miserable. Look I'm not a person who
Speaker 4: would just naturally say, like, just quit your job and
Speaker 4: find something else. I would be a person who said,
Speaker 4: because and look, not everyone has that privilege. I was
Speaker 4: in a job that I absolutely hated. I cried in
Speaker 4: the bathroom. I got asked one day to feed paper
Speaker 4: through a printer, and I was like, they have to
Speaker 4: be kidding. This is like literally what this machine does,
Speaker 4: Like what do you mean I have to put paper
Speaker 4: one by one into the printer.
Speaker 3: I was so miserable.
Speaker 4: And the thing that helped me get clarity, and I
Speaker 4: think was like more of a positive outlet than just
Speaker 4: quitting my job, was I started having informational interviews with people.
Speaker 4: I started reading books and listening to podcasts. I found
Speaker 4: another friend who was also a job searching and we
Speaker 4: connected once a week and we were setting many goals
Speaker 4: and you know, having informational interviews. That job was never
Speaker 4: going to be the job for me, and looking back,
Speaker 4: there were so many parts about it that didn't align
Speaker 4: with my values and why I didn't love it, But
Speaker 4: I wasn't going to change that workplace. So instead I
Speaker 4: was like, what are some of the things I can control?
Speaker 4: Because I didn't have the ability to quit my job
Speaker 4: and focus on those things full time. But what I
Speaker 4: found is I was on cloud nine just by engaging
Speaker 4: in some of these things that made me feel like
Speaker 4: there was hope that I wasn't going to be working
Speaker 4: in this job forever that I hated. So that's at
Speaker 4: least been my experience. Now, if you have the ability to,
Speaker 4: like you've got some savings or you have you know,
Speaker 4: some side skill that you can monetize and do some
Speaker 4: freelancing or side hustle or whatnot, and you are able
Speaker 4: to quit your job, then maybe you quit your job
Speaker 4: because you're like, it's actually doing more harm for me
Speaker 4: to show up and keep doing this than it is
Speaker 4: for me to quit, and you know, make other sacrifices
Speaker 4: in other places So there's a great book called Essentialism
Speaker 4: and it's all about focus and one of the things
Speaker 4: he talks about is life is full of trade offs.
Speaker 4: And I think that's really important because not everything can
Speaker 4: be a priority, Not everything can.
Speaker 3: Be your number one. So what are you willing to
Speaker 3: trade off?
Speaker 4: You know, are you willing to trade off, you know,
Speaker 4: the salary of this job that you hate to you know,
Speaker 4: take a bridge, a couple bridge jobs and look for
Speaker 4: a new job on the side, you know, or are
Speaker 4: you able to say, like, hey, I can stay here
Speaker 4: and kind of like decompartmentalize, like this job is not
Speaker 4: for me, I won't be here forever, and here are
Speaker 4: all the things I'm doing to take action to get
Speaker 4: myself out of here. So those are just some of
Speaker 4: the things that come to mind when I think of
Speaker 4: like when people are trying to decide should I stay
Speaker 4: or shit go? It really depends on your situation, you know.
Speaker 4: You you have to know what your financial runway is.
Speaker 4: You have to know And those are very empowering things too.
Speaker 4: You should know like, well, okay, don't have three months
Speaker 4: of you know, the average job search right now is
Speaker 4: taking about five months, maybe even a little bit longer
Speaker 4: because it's it's a very tough job market out there.
Speaker 4: So for example, if you still have a job, you
Speaker 4: might say I'm not going to quit because it's tough.
Speaker 4: Like so you have to take into account your own
Speaker 4: situation and some realities of what's happening, and then make
Speaker 4: a strategy based on that. The goodness about the strategies,
Speaker 4: you can tweak it, you can refine it as you're
Speaker 4: going along. And like I said, I think a huge
Speaker 4: piece of this is also finding some community. Find a
Speaker 4: friend who's also job searching, find you know, a community
Speaker 4: of people who are focused on this stuff, because it
Speaker 4: will make you feel less alone. And it's one of
Speaker 4: the most important things when you are thinking about making
Speaker 4: a transition is talking to people who have been there
Speaker 4: and done that or are going through it with you
Speaker 4: because they can relate.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I think community is such an antidote to
Speaker 2: so many things. Yeah, you, and you made such a
Speaker 2: good point, Like I think, obviously this is a podcast
Speaker 2: about psychology, and I think prioritizing your mental health is
Speaker 2: number one. Really, Like, if their job is seriously causing
Speaker 2: you to feel mentally unwell, I think it's hard to
Speaker 2: not be like well, you you should just quit and
Speaker 2: you should just like get out of there because it's
Speaker 2: gonna cost you a lot more. And just like mental energy,
Speaker 2: emotional energy time to recover from that emotional experience. And
Speaker 2: I think obviously our mental health is like the most
Speaker 2: valuable resource that we have other than maybe like physical health.
Speaker 2: But it's also, like you said, it's really important to
Speaker 2: be realistic and to give yourself hope whilst you're still
Speaker 2: in that situation. Right, Like, I think hope is such
Speaker 2: like a psychologically powerful emotion. I don't think I'm the
Speaker 2: first person to figure that out, but like it is,
Speaker 2: it is so so powerful to keep you optimistic, to
Speaker 2: keep you know, your spirits high, to keep you motivated,
Speaker 2: even whilst your environment and the job you're currently working
Speaker 2: is perhaps really terrible and you're miserable and it's awful.
Speaker 2: The other thing that I wanted to say to that
Speaker 2: is I had someone on the show who said, sometimes
Speaker 2: we change our external environment because there's something internally that
Speaker 2: we want to change. So it's an interesting thing when
Speaker 2: we talk about changing careers in our twenties because obviously,
Speaker 2: in one hand, I'm like, yes, absolutely take the risk
Speaker 2: to anything you can to try out a new version
Speaker 2: of you that you think you might be happier in.
Speaker 2: But I sometimes see cases whereby people continuously change their
Speaker 2: careers because they're using their careers as a proxy for
Speaker 2: something else that's wrong in their life.
Speaker 4: Totally, it's easier sometimes to change your career than to
Speaker 4: do deep internal work right. And also I think it
Speaker 4: feels like a tangible thing sometimes, like your job title,
Speaker 4: your company, your boss, Like the external environment feels very tangible.
Speaker 4: What I have found about psychology and internal work is
Speaker 4: like that feels sometimes a little elusive, you know, like
Speaker 4: you can't quite hold that feeling in your hand even
Speaker 4: though you feel it. You know, it's like why psycho
Speaker 4: just will be like name the emotion. You're like, I can't,
Speaker 4: and you're like, okay, well step one, we got to
Speaker 4: put some words to this sometimes, you know. So I
Speaker 4: would agree with that absolutely. I think that's why I
Speaker 4: say you take yourself wherever you go. So if you
Speaker 4: don't do that work, you take and I don't want
Speaker 4: to say baggage, but you take that to the next place.
Speaker 4: And you kind of collect these experiences and keep thinking
Speaker 4: why aren't they changing? And you're like, but you only
Speaker 4: have control of yourself too. So it is it is
Speaker 4: like the guests who said that, I completely understand, and
Speaker 4: I think I see this a lot in job hopping,
Speaker 4: where people will job hop and they'll say, well, I'm
Speaker 4: doing it because I want to get a higher salary,
Speaker 4: and you're if you like peel back all the layers,
Speaker 4: they're actually doing it because they like are afraid, like
Speaker 4: they have massive imposter syndrome and they're afraid that the
Speaker 4: current company is going to realize they're not actually worth
Speaker 4: what they paid for them or like whatever, like a
Speaker 4: thing like that, and you're like, oh, okay, well this
Speaker 4: is actually not about job hopping for like salary and
Speaker 4: career advancement. This is this is a different thing altogether.
Speaker 4: So I absolutely do see that as well.
Speaker 2: The other factor here that I was thinking about as
Speaker 2: well is burnout. Like if you were if you were
Speaker 2: mentally so burnt out that you can't function at your job.
Speaker 2: I understand, if I understand in some cases, like if
Speaker 2: you're working as a nurse and working crazy hours and
Speaker 2: then you transition to like an admin job, perhaps that
Speaker 2: would be better. But if you're burnt out, it does
Speaker 2: not just take like a like a career change to
Speaker 2: solve that, nor does it take like quitting a job
Speaker 2: for it to go away like that. Burnout is like
Speaker 2: a deep emotional and physical state that needs to be
Speaker 2: addressed at a more holistic level. You might feel momentarily
Speaker 2: refreshed by changing careers or changing more so in this area,
Speaker 2: like changing jobs, but it's going to come back really
Speaker 2: really quickly if you don't establish like proper boundaries. And
Speaker 2: I think that's likely another huge thing that maybe before
Speaker 2: you choose to change careers, you see what else is
Speaker 2: available to you in the current career and see whether
Speaker 2: there is room for you to be promoted, whether there
Speaker 2: is room for you to grow, whether there is room
Speaker 2: for you to upskill in some way, or whether there
Speaker 2: is room for you to just take like a long holiday,
Speaker 2: like a long paid vacation, which I know I'm saying
Speaker 2: this from a point of like I'm in Australia and
Speaker 2: that is we have long term paid leave, So I
Speaker 2: don't know if you guys have that.
Speaker 4: No, the US is like I'm having heart surgery. I'll
Speaker 4: be delayed responding to your email. You know, our view
Speaker 4: on work is very unhealthy over here. But one thing
Speaker 4: I was going to say about your comment about burnout.
Speaker 4: This is what I have found. You can be working
Speaker 4: crazy long hours but be really motivated and energized by
Speaker 4: what you're working on and you're not burnt out. I
Speaker 4: actually don't think burnout is always correlated to number of
Speaker 4: and whatnot. I think burnout is actually more correlated to
Speaker 4: the impact and the purpose. So, for example, if you
Speaker 4: understand the impact that your work has on the company,
Speaker 4: the team, the product, the customers, whatever, I think that's
Speaker 4: much more energizing and keeps you from burning out because
Speaker 4: you understand your bigger impact. When I do this thing,
Speaker 4: here's how it adds to the bigger picture.
Speaker 3: When you are.
Speaker 4: Working crazy and you're just doing a ton of busy
Speaker 4: work and you feel like this work doesn't matter, nobody
Speaker 4: cares about this work, guess what that is going to
Speaker 4: lead to burnout very quickly. It's a one way ticket
Speaker 4: to burn out in the sense of like sometimes I
Speaker 4: think it's more about the impact that your work is making.
Speaker 4: Because us as humans, part of our well being is
Speaker 4: that purpose piece. It's wanting to make an impact. It's
Speaker 4: why you know Trust Fund Babies. You can sit on
Speaker 4: a beach all day long, don't you know, they don't
Speaker 4: they It's like it's not there's a piece of your
Speaker 4: well being that wants to contribute and make an impact
Speaker 4: and be working on something that matters to you. And
Speaker 4: I think that especially when you're younger in your career. Look,
Speaker 4: you're not going to be given like some major big
Speaker 4: project or this, like you're gonna be asked to do
Speaker 4: some grunt work. But like a way that you can
Speaker 4: rephrase this, Like I remember I got this advice early
Speaker 4: on that I really liked, and it was it was
Speaker 4: swallow the frog, and it's kind of like one of
Speaker 4: those greatest hacks, and I think it's helpful to learn
Speaker 4: it early on in your career is observe your boss,
Speaker 4: you know, figure out what they hate doing, and then
Speaker 4: learn how to do it and take it off their plate,
Speaker 4: Like can you you know, My point being is like
Speaker 4: sometimes early on in your career, nobody's going.
Speaker 3: To come to you and say, do this thing.
Speaker 4: It will make a big impact in my day and
Speaker 4: therefore in your career. But you can, you know, job
Speaker 4: titles are just to start, you know, thinking about thinking
Speaker 4: outside the box of your job description and your job
Speaker 4: title and thinking about okay, what thing does my boss
Speaker 4: hate but it matters to them? Could I learn it
Speaker 4: and take it off their plate? And therefore, instead of
Speaker 4: doing these tasks that I feel like are busy work,
Speaker 4: I'm doing something that's truly helping and making a difference there.
Speaker 4: And that's just an example of like sometimes when you're
Speaker 4: younger in your career or earlier on in your career,
Speaker 4: there are some limitations, Right, You're not going to be
Speaker 4: able to like take over that client or something like that,
Speaker 4: but maybe you can do something.
Speaker 3: To help support that.
Speaker 4: So I say that because you know, I'm not trying
Speaker 4: to say, oh, your job description doesn't matter and you
Speaker 4: should take on all this extra work. I don't mean
Speaker 4: it like that, but it's like, where can you not
Speaker 4: just be the indispensable person at work where you work
Speaker 4: really hard and you know you're doing all the things.
Speaker 4: How can you be the invaluable person at work? What
Speaker 4: things really matter on this team? And I think that
Speaker 4: will help one grow your career, give you some more
Speaker 4: insights into like you know, what lessons and tools and
Speaker 4: skills are you learning to add value, but also kind
Speaker 4: of combating that burnout as well. So I think that's
Speaker 4: one of the things I find, just especially early on
Speaker 4: in your career, is like you can't look at it
Speaker 4: as black and white as it is, even though it
Speaker 4: feels that way. And that's what I was meaning about,
Speaker 4: like one plus one doesn't always equal to and you're right,
Speaker 4: it could equal four, but I think oftentimes people are
Speaker 4: just frusht at because one plus one isn't even equally
Speaker 4: too for them when it comes to like they're like
Speaker 4: they're like, I got the job title and I got this,
Speaker 4: saying why am I not fulfilled? Like I thought the
Speaker 4: key to you know, career success and career fulfillment was
Speaker 4: as simple as like finding the right job at the
Speaker 4: right company, and I worked really hard to get that way,
Speaker 4: and that probably goes back to a bigger picture. But
Speaker 4: this is also why I get frustrated with the terminology
Speaker 4: like dream job.
Speaker 2: Do not do not talk to me about this. I
Speaker 2: hate that term. I literally did a whole episode like
Speaker 2: the myth of the dream job. I was like, there's
Speaker 2: no dream job. Don't let them tell you that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no job, and what it is it's like
Speaker 4: this pumped up lifestyle version and that that's a problem
Speaker 4: because also similar to a partner who is not going
Speaker 4: to check every box of your life. A job and
Speaker 4: a career is also not going to do that. So
Speaker 4: we were talking about not dealing with your internal stuff.
Speaker 4: Some people are looking for that. They're looking for this
Speaker 4: job that will like check all these boxes, and then
Speaker 4: they're so disappointed when they get there and they're like,
Speaker 4: it's not what I thought it was going to be.
Speaker 3: And it's like, but maybe we need to peel.
Speaker 4: This back and realize that your expectations of what you
Speaker 4: think a job should be and what it owes you
Speaker 4: and whatever is unrealistic, and so you're on this constant
Speaker 4: cycle of yes that the myth is what's keeping you
Speaker 4: stuck and unfulfilled more than any more than any job
Speaker 4: or boss or anything like that.
Speaker 2: Is Yeah, I totally agree. And I have a friend
Speaker 2: who talks about this a lot. And she is someone
Speaker 2: who just like she hates the idea of a dream
Speaker 2: job for the reason that her purpose is never gonna
Speaker 2: lie in what she's getting paid to do, Like this
Speaker 2: is just something like the thing that she loves the
Speaker 2: most in the world is not something she will ever
Speaker 2: get paid to do, and so it's it's just really
Speaker 2: interesting to her to hear from her and her being like,
Speaker 2: I don't care where I work, I still have purpose.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna I'm not looking for my job to
Speaker 2: fulfill me one hundred percent. Like that is not my
Speaker 2: job's job, you know what I mean. Like, that's not
Speaker 2: what I'm doing this for. I'm doing this for a
Speaker 2: paycheck and other thing that I absolutely love. How you
Speaker 2: referred to relationships as well, there's the ninety ten rule,
Speaker 2: which says that a lot of the time people throw
Speaker 2: away a relationship that is ninety percent fulfilling because they
Speaker 2: are missing their ten percent, and then they find someone
Speaker 2: who is the ten percent and that doesn't last because
Speaker 2: they're like, actually, this is just like all the things
Speaker 2: I may have wanted, but it sucks. And I find
Speaker 2: that in careers as well, and as someone who is
Speaker 2: h I'm about to completely like double cross myself be
Speaker 2: a hypocrite as someone who's working their dream job, like
Speaker 2: basically at this point, like this is the best job
Speaker 2: I could ever hope for. There are still times when
Speaker 2: it really sucks and I think about going back. If
Speaker 2: I think about like going back to do hospital or
Speaker 2: just something or something else, because it's not secure, it's
Speaker 2: there's just so many other factors that you give up, right,
Speaker 2: it's the trade off as well. I feel like we're
Speaker 2: just talking, We're talking through so many hypotheticals here. I
Speaker 2: want to ask you, like a very pointed question. Now,
Speaker 2: what do you have What kind of advice do you
Speaker 2: have for someone who wants to change careers but it's
Speaker 2: concerned about starting over financially and you said it's taking
Speaker 2: five months. I don't have five months of savings. How
Speaker 2: do we probably prepare for that change?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, I think a couple of things.
Speaker 4: One always be job searching in the in a way
Speaker 4: where and what I mean by that is you should
Speaker 4: always be thinking about your personal and professional brand upskilling networking.
Speaker 4: Networking is not just with people you know. It can
Speaker 4: also be networking within your company, building relationships with people
Speaker 4: at work. Also networking, especially if you do want to
Speaker 4: make a career transition. When I often tell people is like, well,
Speaker 4: the people in your current network probably aren't going to
Speaker 4: be able to help you get to this new place
Speaker 4: because they're part of your old place. So you need
Speaker 4: to find what I call bridge connections. You know, So
Speaker 4: if you are and here's the thing, you're not necessarily
Speaker 4: starting over. But would you be removing a like the
Speaker 4: security of a paycheck if you were to say I'm
Speaker 4: going to quit my job and then find a new job,
Speaker 4: or probably more more likely scenario is I was laid
Speaker 4: off and now I need to find a new job
Speaker 4: right So, because most people, I think in this job market,
Speaker 4: if they want to switch jobs, they're probably going to
Speaker 4: keep their current job while they're searching. So let's just
Speaker 4: go with like you were laid off, you were fired,
Speaker 4: or you don't have a job right now and you
Speaker 4: want to find something now.
Speaker 3: There is no.
Speaker 4: Harm in taking a quote bridge job to create some
Speaker 4: income for yourself and have that as a trade off
Speaker 4: while you are job searching. Nothing about taking you know,
Speaker 4: the grocery store job or the job at the at
Speaker 4: target means that you're there forever right like your one
Speaker 4: move does not dictate the rest of your life. And
Speaker 4: also I would say like for someone who was a recruiter,
Speaker 4: I would actually be very impressed to be like, Okay,
Speaker 4: you haven't had you've been job searching for four months,
Speaker 4: what have you been doing with your time?
Speaker 3: You're gonna get asked a question like that.
Speaker 4: And so by being able to say, like, you know,
Speaker 4: I walked dogs for the neighborhood, I took on babysitting,
Speaker 4: I did some freelancing of this and that that shows
Speaker 4: me that you have drive and you take initiative, and
Speaker 4: that you're hungry for something new. So, you know, being
Speaker 4: open about I'm making a career change, I'm doing something different,
Speaker 4: I think is like and then connecting it to all
Speaker 4: the cool things that you're doing to get there, I
Speaker 4: think is great. The other thing, if you wanted to
Speaker 4: make a career transition right now, or you were job searching,
Speaker 4: I think one of the best things you can do
Speaker 4: is go have informational interviews with people who are doing
Speaker 4: the job at ideally the company you want to work at.
Speaker 4: So can you learn from these informational interviews what the
Speaker 4: job is like there, maybe what skills gaps that you have.
Speaker 4: Who do they hire, why do they hire them, what
Speaker 4: do they look for and to hire? What did they
Speaker 4: like about the culture. One of the things when I
Speaker 4: was working as an admin assistant, hated my job and
Speaker 4: I really wanted to become a recruiter. I started having
Speaker 4: informational interviews with recruiters. Now, none of those informational interviews
Speaker 4: led me to a referral for a job. But what
Speaker 4: they did do is when I did get my job
Speaker 4: interview at Hulu for recruiting, I was able to tell them,
Speaker 4: I know, I don't have prior quote quie, you know, recruiting.
Speaker 4: I don't have quote prior recruiting experience. But what I
Speaker 4: do have is I've had thirty informational interviews with recruiters
Speaker 4: and I've learned this and this and this about recruiting,
Speaker 4: and here's how my experience, my transferable skills actually are
Speaker 4: a really good fit. So, for example, in recruiting, you
Speaker 4: guys care a lot about candidate experience. And I know
Speaker 4: this part's really important. I don't have candidates, but I
Speaker 4: work with students. Students are my candidates, and here's how.
Speaker 4: And so I'm speaking the same language that they might
Speaker 4: be doing in an interview and for the person on
Speaker 4: the other end, And I know this for a fact.
Speaker 4: I got their job at Hulu obviously because I was
Speaker 4: the most experienced, but definitely because I wanted the job
Speaker 4: the most and I was, you know, going above and beyond.
Speaker 4: So do not let your prior or experience or education
Speaker 4: or anything like that stop you from the thing that
Speaker 4: you want to do. Part of it is creating a
Speaker 4: game plan of how are we going to connect the
Speaker 4: dots from where you are right now to where you're
Speaker 4: going to go next. And like I said, bridge jobs
Speaker 4: are totally appropriate, but we still want to be able
Speaker 4: to have this informational interviews. Can you know, listen to podcasts,
Speaker 4: watch online courses about you know, you want to be
Speaker 4: a community manager, what do they do, and then see
Speaker 4: if you can start to you know, tailor your resume
Speaker 4: and tailor your LinkedIn profile and taylor your networking experience
Speaker 4: or what you talk about the story that you tell
Speaker 4: people about yourself and your experience so that it's going
Speaker 4: to be very relevant to them. I have this quote
Speaker 4: that I heard someone say that I love, which is
Speaker 4: show the ten percent of you that is one hundred
Speaker 4: percent relevant to them. You know, they don't need to
Speaker 4: know your whole life story. They need to know, like
Speaker 4: what part of you is going to be really important
Speaker 4: for them to know if you're transitioning careers. It's not
Speaker 4: I quit my job where I got laid off. The
Speaker 4: point is I am really excited about online marketing and
Speaker 4: here's what I've been doing to connect the dots between
Speaker 4: what I was doing before and why I want to
Speaker 4: get into and start in online marketing.
Speaker 2: That enthusiasm factor is massive. It is so massive, because
Speaker 2: we were just talking about it, sometimes people who have
Speaker 2: who have slided into this career and maybe burnt out
Speaker 2: and stuck and not going to bring that same level
Speaker 2: of freshness and newness that people like so desperately want.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like you can teach skills, you can't teach attitude,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and you can't like breathe new life into
Speaker 2: someone like if you know what I mean, like you
Speaker 2: kind of have to cut Yeah. I just think that's
Speaker 2: such a it's actually such an asset. Probably one of
Speaker 2: the reasons you got hired at Hullo as well, what
Speaker 2: you just said, it's because you was you wanted it
Speaker 2: the most, and they knew that you were going to
Speaker 2: bring that into that job. Another thing that one of
Speaker 2: my friends recently had an experience like that, and she
Speaker 2: has since found a much better job in a much
Speaker 2: different field, and it's like a huge success story of
Speaker 2: what we're talking about. And some of the things she
Speaker 2: did in the meantime was she taught herself a new skill.
Speaker 2: She taught herself how to be really really good at Excel,
Speaker 2: which is super random. I think if you've ever worked
Speaker 2: a corporate job, you know how valuable XL is. Like
Speaker 2: I still know how to do all my functions from
Speaker 2: when I was a consultant, Like it's so valuable. Another
Speaker 2: one is like audio editing or learning how to do
Speaker 2: design work. She taught herself a new skill, and she
Speaker 2: also made her own project for her while she was
Speaker 2: job hunting. I always think about what's that man's name,
Speaker 2: that famous man, Matt Damon. I always think about Matt
Speaker 2: Damon and Ben Affleck and how they weren't getting hired
Speaker 2: for jobs and they weren't getting like acting gigs, and
Speaker 2: so they just were like, fuck it, I'm gonna write
Speaker 2: my own script. And sometimes you need to do that. Obviously,
Speaker 2: it's not maybe won't make you into a quadruple millionaire
Speaker 2: that they are now, but just being like, oh, whilst
Speaker 2: I was, you know, unemployed, I like started my own business,
Speaker 2: like doing reorganizing, or I started my own business like
Speaker 2: selling online content, like or help as like a social
Speaker 2: media manager. Like small things like that that show once
Speaker 2: again that you have initiative, but also give you a
Speaker 2: new skill for you to bring into this new career.
Speaker 2: You know. I think it's a misconception that to change
Speaker 2: careers you suddenly you need to go back to school
Speaker 2: or you need to get a whole new degree. Can
Speaker 2: you talk about that a bit. I think that's like
Speaker 2: a huge one that I come across a lot.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think that's why the informational interviews are so valuable
Speaker 4: because you can ask them, you know, would you hire
Speaker 4: someone who can you know, has learned these skills via
Speaker 4: online learning and on the job and through real experience,
Speaker 4: or do you prefer to see additional education And they'll
Speaker 4: probably tell you real life learning of the skills is
Speaker 4: more valuable to me than however many degrees you have. Now,
Speaker 4: it always depends on what it is that you're doing.
Speaker 4: If you want to be a doctor, we need you
Speaker 4: to go through med school, you know. But I think
Speaker 4: it's I would not drop kick to paying for, you know,
Speaker 4: additional education before I've exhausted all my free options and
Speaker 4: the ability to like for myself to test out and
Speaker 4: experiment and build things, And I would start there first
Speaker 4: one hundred times over.
Speaker 2: It's really interesting because I actually when you say, like lived,
Speaker 2: experience is better. I have a politics degree, and I
Speaker 2: have a philosophy degree and an economics degree. Do I
Speaker 2: use those? No? No, So, like if someone if I
Speaker 2: was to walk into like a position for an economist
Speaker 2: and be like, oh, yeah, I have a degree, but
Speaker 2: I've never done anything like this ever before, I really
Speaker 2: could probably only apply my knowledge of UNI and that
Speaker 2: was years ago.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, experience is always going to speak much
Speaker 4: louder than degrees and words, you know. I think, you know,
Speaker 4: for a lot of people, having the college degree is
Speaker 4: like kind of that first step. But even now today,
Speaker 4: like I mean, my kids are really young, but if
Speaker 4: my kids get ready to go to college, I'm probably
Speaker 4: going to ask them, well, what are you studying?
Speaker 3: Is there?
Speaker 4: Because you might not even need to go to university
Speaker 4: at some point, you know, you might be able to
Speaker 4: learn everything via on the job learning and through you
Speaker 4: can literally pretty much learn anything via YouTube videos if
Speaker 4: you really wanted to, or TikTok videos at this point,
Speaker 4: you know, so, I absolutely, especially for the advanced degree thing.
Speaker 4: I'm always hesitant to ever give the advice of like, yeah,
Speaker 4: go and pay for this thing.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 4: Some people are like, I need the accountability. I need
Speaker 4: to be able to show up in person. You're that
Speaker 4: you're talking about something a little different. You could hire
Speaker 4: a career coach to help you and work with you.
Speaker 4: That would be a lot cheaper than going through an
Speaker 4: academic program.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, Especially I find this a lot with my
Speaker 2: friends who are like they've reached kind of like a
Speaker 2: plateau at like twenty five, twenty six, and a lot
Speaker 2: of them are like, I'm going to go do my
Speaker 2: masters because in Australia, like the government pays like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a lot easier.
Speaker 1: To do it.
Speaker 2: The government pays your alone for you, and it's just
Speaker 2: like it it's just like almost like a limbo point.
Speaker 3: It's like taking a bridge job.
Speaker 4: You know, you're like bridging between wherever you're going to go.
Speaker 3: Next, and you're going to buy time.
Speaker 4: And I will say there are plenty of people in
Speaker 4: the US that they just pay for it, which is
Speaker 4: not the best idea, but where they enroll in the
Speaker 4: master's program because they're like, I'm not totally sure what
Speaker 4: i want to do, and I'm gonna kind of buy
Speaker 4: some time doing something productive. And so many of us,
Speaker 4: when you're in your twenties, the thing you know, more
Speaker 4: than work is school. You know, you've been a student
Speaker 4: way longer than you've been in a worker.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and especially when you're sold this very traditional path
Speaker 2: of like more education equals more opportunities, Like I don't
Speaker 2: necessarily think that's the case anymore, actually, And I think
Speaker 2: also I've been reading lots of articles about people being
Speaker 2: like actually, like like you said with your kids, like
Speaker 2: it's a waste of money. It's a waste of money
Speaker 2: for what I want to get into. Turning back to
Speaker 2: someone who is at that turning point, at that crossroads,
Speaker 2: ready to change, totally, ready to find a new job,
Speaker 2: ready to try whatever it takes to shift to this
Speaker 2: new path. What are some of the key challenges you
Speaker 2: think they might encounter and how can they be prepared
Speaker 2: for them so that when they happen they're not terrifying
Speaker 2: and cause them to retreat. What are some of the
Speaker 2: key challenges you think they might encounter and how can
Speaker 2: they be prepared for them so that when they happen,
Speaker 2: they're not terrifying and cause them to retreat.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Amil will just say rejection is part of the process, right,
Speaker 4: So you're going to apply for jobs and not get them.
Speaker 4: You're going to have interviews that don't go well, you know,
Speaker 4: I You're going to have informational interviews where you reach
Speaker 4: out on the person never gets back to you, never
Speaker 4: get to have it. So you know, part of this
Speaker 4: is trying to figure out what parts of this process
Speaker 4: can I control and what parts do I not have
Speaker 4: control over?
Speaker 3: And also.
Speaker 4: Not giving up because you had one bad moment. Like
Speaker 4: I joke that like if your resume got rejected, let's
Speaker 4: say they're spending it seven seconds on average looking at
Speaker 4: your resume. That's if they even did look at your resume,
Speaker 4: Like that can't be taken as a personal.
Speaker 3: Rejection, and Okay, you should give up.
Speaker 4: Because what does that person know, right, they spent seven
Speaker 4: seconds looking over something.
Speaker 3: But there are some.
Speaker 4: Tips that you can do that give you a better chance, like,
Speaker 4: for example, creating a really great master resume and then
Speaker 4: tailoring that resume for each job that you apply for.
Speaker 4: That is something that is totally in your control. People
Speaker 4: always ask how do I tailor it? You're going to
Speaker 4: tailor it based on what the job description and the
Speaker 4: company are looking for, so you're able to take your
Speaker 4: experience and how can you again take those transferable skills
Speaker 4: and make them work for what that company needs. Now,
Speaker 4: can you, when you apply for a job, go back
Speaker 4: to that informational interview that you had at that job
Speaker 4: and say, I recently applied for this job. Would you
Speaker 4: be able to refer me? Can I send my resume
Speaker 4: to you and you send it to a hiring manager.
Speaker 4: That's within your control. You're able to send you know,
Speaker 4: prep really well before an interview by researching the company,
Speaker 4: researching who you're going to interview with, sending a thank
Speaker 4: you note after. Those are things that you can control.
Speaker 4: You can have a practice interview with your best friend,
Speaker 4: your mom, your career coach, whoever. Those are things that
Speaker 4: you can control. I think that focusing on what you
Speaker 4: can control versus, you know, letting one thing kind of
Speaker 4: fall out of place and then it kind of takes
Speaker 4: everything down for you. It's not it's like an overall
Speaker 4: lesson in life is like that's not going to go
Speaker 4: very well because stuff happens and you have to be
Speaker 4: able to adapt and go a plan B. The other
Speaker 4: thing I always tell people, I'm like, there's no one
Speaker 4: right way to job search, so like apply to jobs online,
Speaker 4: you know, cold apply to jobs online also as your network,
Speaker 4: you know, create sample projects of like if the job
Speaker 4: you're applying to is a social media manager, create a
Speaker 4: fake social media account for them, or show real graphics
Speaker 4: of the content you would create if you were to
Speaker 4: get hired there, Like you have the ability to put
Speaker 4: your best foot forward and control those things. Now, there
Speaker 4: are so many reasons why people do and do not
Speaker 4: get jobs, and we can't always control those, and you know,
Speaker 4: it's humans making decisions about other humans.
Speaker 3: So that's why I say that.
Speaker 4: And one of the worst things that can happen in
Speaker 4: a job search, and I see it happen all the time,
Speaker 4: is like people don't start getting traction, so then they
Speaker 4: start to like really kind of lose faith and hope
Speaker 4: in their own abilities. And it's kind of like this
Speaker 4: insecurity and negativity, you know, imposter syndrome versus a growth
Speaker 4: mindset sometimes is a slippery slope.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: The growth mindset is the person who says, I'm going
Speaker 4: to get there and I trust in my ability to
Speaker 4: learn and adapt and keep going and be resilient, and
Speaker 4: the imposter syndrome person is, well, you're not getting jobs
Speaker 4: because you know you're not that good about you don't
Speaker 4: really know what you're doing anyways, Like this is a
Speaker 4: long shot anyways, And so being able to manage those
Speaker 4: thoughts is also really important in a huge life skill.
Speaker 4: So that's why I've always been a big fan of, like,
Speaker 4: find another friend who's job searching with you so you
Speaker 4: can share this stuff so that they can be your
Speaker 4: hype woman when you need to, and vice versa. I
Speaker 4: think all of that is really important in job searches.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of moving parts that happen with it.
Speaker 4: So yeah, and then the other thing is do not
Speaker 4: forget about the power of LinkedIn, having an optimized profile,
Speaker 4: networking with people on LinkedIn, leaving engaged comments. I just
Speaker 4: did an entire podcast episode about the power of LinkedIn comments,
Speaker 4: and that's something you have control over, you know. So
Speaker 4: I like to shift people back to the things that
Speaker 4: you can control versus the things you can't control. The
Speaker 4: other thing I would say is if you're in that
Speaker 4: part is think about the companies that you want to
Speaker 4: apply for.
Speaker 3: So sometimes it's a little.
Speaker 4: Scary to be like I'm just going to apply to
Speaker 4: any job that comes at me that I'm in rested. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and so one of the things I've always been a
Speaker 4: fan of and I'm not saying this is the only way,
Speaker 4: but sometimes I feel like it can narrow it down
Speaker 4: a little bit for you if you're feeling overwhelmed by saying, Okay,
Speaker 4: let's just focus on what are your target companies? Why
Speaker 4: are they your target companies? Do you only want to
Speaker 4: work for remote companies? Do you only want to work
Speaker 4: for companies whose products you're obsessed with?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: Do you only want to work for companies that are
Speaker 4: on the best Companies to work for lists? You know
Speaker 4: that kind of thing, like you look, no one's like
Speaker 4: double checking your work, So it can be for any reason.
Speaker 4: It can be that they have a bigger, longer vacation policy.
Speaker 4: I don't really care. My point being is like, get
Speaker 4: some clarity over why this company interests you, and can
Speaker 4: you dive a little deeper to learn about it? And
Speaker 4: you know, learn about the company, Listen to the podcasts
Speaker 4: with their leaders, see if they have earning calls that
Speaker 4: you can check in with. Do they have events that
Speaker 4: you can go to or online events? Can you follow
Speaker 4: them on social media? You know, all of those things
Speaker 4: add up.
Speaker 2: Also, Yeah, I ars agree, it's about I think it's
Speaker 2: just like having an exploratory mindset and one that's like
Speaker 2: one of abundance and being like, I'm going to get
Speaker 2: this job, and I'm going to show them that I
Speaker 2: want this job, and I'm going to keep all my
Speaker 2: doors open, can I I'm going to finish up by
Speaker 2: asking you one more question, maybe two, maybe two, And
Speaker 2: what advice would you give for someone who's taking in
Speaker 2: a less conventional career path who wants to do something
Speaker 2: that's like not necessarily a job that you can apply
Speaker 2: for through LinkedIn or through seek. I'm thinking people normally
Speaker 2: like in creative jobs, photographers, people who want to start
Speaker 2: their own businesses, podcasters, that kind of thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think for anybody who's starting something that maybe
Speaker 4: isn't like a job that you apply to online, like
Speaker 4: just get started. You know, my very first podcast episode
Speaker 4: is not as good as the podcast episode I have today,
Speaker 4: But thank goodness, I started and I started practicing, you know,
Speaker 4: and I just got out there. I recently started creating
Speaker 4: content on LinkedIn, and I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 4: my first like five posts are not that good. I
Speaker 4: didn't understand like the best way to like write your
Speaker 4: content and format it on LinkedIn, and guess what, I
Speaker 4: keep doing it every day, not because I love having
Speaker 4: one more thing to do, but because I want to
Speaker 4: get better at it. So if you are, you know,
Speaker 4: building your own brand or your own business, something to
Speaker 4: think about is like just get started and then by
Speaker 4: starting you will start to iron out some of the wrinkles.
Speaker 4: Connect with other people who are doing the stuff that
Speaker 4: you want to do, because they will be your best
Speaker 4: teachers and advocates and people you can go to. The
Speaker 4: other thing, I guess is probably on the financial same
Speaker 4: way as like how are you going to make money?
Speaker 4: You know, like if you're going to be a photographer,
Speaker 4: like how are you planning on charging people? What are
Speaker 4: your packages? Like laying stuff out versus being a little
Speaker 4: loosey goosey. I think people like to have options, too
Speaker 4: many options, you know, and then also making it easy
Speaker 4: for them to make those decisions and personal branding slash
Speaker 4: you know, marketing, I guess is a big piece of
Speaker 4: all of that. You know, if you're going to be
Speaker 4: a podcaster, how are you going to get people to
Speaker 4: listen to your show?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 4: Are you just going to build it and then hope
Speaker 4: that they come. They probably won't you know, So are
Speaker 4: you going to also start sharing it on LinkedIn? Are
Speaker 4: you going to start an Instagram channel on TikTok? Are
Speaker 4: you going to recycle the content?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 4: As a content creator today, I don't. I didn't go
Speaker 4: to school to become a content creator, but I learned
Speaker 4: by doing and watching other people, reading their blog posts,
Speaker 4: you know, and just iterating along the way too. I
Speaker 4: think if you're doing a less traditional career path, it's
Speaker 4: something more creative. It just requires you to not just
Speaker 4: do that thing. You also probably are going to have
Speaker 4: to be like, for example, you're a podcast, you own
Speaker 4: a business. You understand you don't just get to podcast
Speaker 4: some days. You also have to think about like taxes
Speaker 4: and payroll or you know that kind of stuff. So
Speaker 4: just something to think about is that, you know, running
Speaker 4: a business is a whole other set of skills besides
Speaker 4: just that. I think a lot of people start running
Speaker 4: a business because they're like, I really love photography. Well,
Speaker 4: there are probably other career paths that you can do
Speaker 4: that include photography, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you
Speaker 4: have to start your own business. I think I'm also
Speaker 4: sensitive to this because I think for a while at
Speaker 4: least my generation, the millennial women generation, I think we
Speaker 4: were constantly told if work isn't working for you, just
Speaker 4: become your own boss, become a quote girl boss. And
Speaker 4: I don't think that's the answer for everybody either. So
Speaker 4: I think that for some people, entrepreneurship is a great
Speaker 4: path and for some people it's like I'm very creative
Speaker 4: and I like to create, but I really want the security,
Speaker 4: and no job is providing you one hundred percent security,
Speaker 4: But like, I want to do it on a larger
Speaker 4: scale for a bigger company. You know, I want to
Speaker 4: go work for CANBA where I'm helping do design work
Speaker 4: or something like that. So just something to think about
Speaker 4: is like, also, who are you as a person? Entrepreneurship
Speaker 4: comes with high highs, low lows, uncertainty. It's not that
Speaker 4: a corporate career doesn't come with that. It comes with
Speaker 4: its own slew of things. You know, the grass is
Speaker 4: not greener anywhere. And I had this woman on the
Speaker 4: podcast who was like, the grass is green wherever you
Speaker 4: water it, And it's like, yeah, so where do you
Speaker 4: want to invest your time and energy? You know, because
Speaker 4: wherever you are, you're gonna be watering the grass.
Speaker 3: You have to.
Speaker 2: And you know what, I will say this about working
Speaker 2: for yourself, being an entrepreneur, starting your own business, whatever
Speaker 2: it is, you have to love what you're doing one
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty percent, maybe even two hundred percent, because
Speaker 2: when you start doing it for yourself, you're gonna love
Speaker 2: it a lot less because you will suddenly have to
Speaker 2: deal with a lot of things that you didn't want
Speaker 2: to deal with. The one for me is like, yeah,
Speaker 2: obviously it's just like admin and taxes and talking to
Speaker 2: my lawyer and like things like that. And then it's
Speaker 2: also like receiving negative comments and doing social media. Like
Speaker 2: I did not start a podcast thinking that I would
Speaker 2: have to do social media as much as I did
Speaker 2: as I do. It's like such a hassle and like
Speaker 2: I didn't go to school for that either. So I
Speaker 2: think it is about exactly The perfect place to end
Speaker 2: is exactly as you said, the grass is greenest where
Speaker 2: you water it. And I honestly think that you can
Speaker 2: be watering two lawns at once, waiting to shift over
Speaker 2: to that second lawn over there and let the other
Speaker 2: one die off. But it's like all about being realistic
Speaker 2: about like what you can achieve and in what timeframe
Speaker 2: that's my I'm gonna say that as a final piece
Speaker 2: of advice, like you don't have to have it all
Speaker 2: sorted out in the next six months. There's always a
Speaker 2: sense of like huge, massive urgency in our twenties to
Speaker 2: get everything instantly. Sometimes it's gonna take a little bit longer,
Speaker 2: but it's still gonna be worth it in the end. Look,
Speaker 2: that's a beautiful place to end. I want to say
Speaker 2: thank you so much Lauren for coming on. Honestly, I
Speaker 2: was taking notes. I think you could say of like
Speaker 2: your advice, being like, oh yep, we gotta take that,
Speaker 2: gonna pass that on, like it is genuinely so so useful,
Speaker 2: so practical. If you want to hear more from Lauren,
Speaker 2: you should go and follow the Career Contesta podcast with
Speaker 2: Dear Media. I've actually listened to a few episodes, and
Speaker 2: you know what it's I love when shows actually give
Speaker 2: you practical things to do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's pretty much what we do all the time.
Speaker 4: You know, career advice delivered an actual bite size like
Speaker 4: do this, do that. I found that again, career advice
Speaker 4: can sometimes be a little abstract, and people like tangible.
Speaker 4: They need that in order to move forward, So that's.
Speaker 2: What we do. Yeah, it's really really useful if you're
Speaker 2: thinking about changing careers again. I will leave all of
Speaker 2: Lauren's links and career Contesta links in the description of
Speaker 2: this episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you
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Speaker 2: episode's suggestion. We always love to hear from you, and
Speaker 2: we will be back next week with another episode.